Catholic questions

[cailan]

Hello

I came to faith in 2003 whilst attending an Alpha Course at a local Baptist Church. I was blessed with a job the following year working for a charity spreading the gospel. It is a Catholic charity. The nuns I work with are, on the whole, lovely. Some are not particularly Christ-like but I have overlooked this. I have, however, come to the point of questioning the validity of the Catholic faith. I am severely depressed; I have spent many years in a role I believed I was called to, spreading the gospel, and yet so much of the material that is distributed does not conform with my beliefs - the deification of the Pope, adoration of Mary, prayers to the saints and other non-scriptural beliefs. I have only just learnt that the Catholic church amended the ten commandments. I am at my wits end; I will not work for an organisation that distributes material that is heretical. I am determined to resign on Monday. I am attending a service to commemorate the final vows of one of the nuns on Sunday; I sneaked a look at the order of service and was shocked to read that the nun is expected to declare that she will 'trust in Mary, Queen of Apostles, and Saint Paul'. No mention is made of trusting in Jesus Christ. I feel I have been naive. Please advise.

[mont974x4]

It sounds to me like the Holy Spirit has led you to a point of conviction on the issues and you are ready to act. I encourage you to take the action you feel led to, and resign as planned.


Don't beat yourself up about being naive. We can't know everything about everything. The Bible says the Holy Spirit it given to lead us into all truth, not that we will suddenly have understanding of everything all at once.


Jay

[th1bill]

I would also say that you must follow your conviction. Iknow that if it were myself in that position that I would throw myself on the mercy of God and remove myself from their influence. The LORD is trustworthy and will see to your needs but only if you trust Him.

[arunma]

Hello

I came to faith in 2003 whilst attending an Alpha Course at a local Baptist Church. I was blessed with a job the following year working for a charity spreading the gospel. It is a Catholic charity. The nuns I work with are, on the whole, lovely. Some are not particularly Christ-like but I have overlooked this. I have, however, come to the point of questioning the validity of the Catholic faith. I am severely depressed; I have spent many years in a role I believed I was called to, spreading the gospel, and yet so much of the material that is distributed does not conform with my beliefs - the deification of the Pope, adoration of Mary, prayers to the saints and other non-scriptural beliefs. I have only just learnt that the Catholic church amended the ten commandments. I am at my wits end; I will not work for an organisation that distributes material that is heretical. I am determined to resign on Monday. I am attending a service to commemorate the final vows of one of the nuns on Sunday; I sneaked a look at the order of service and was shocked to read that the nun is expected to declare that she will 'trust in Mary, Queen of Apostles, and Saint Paul'. No mention is made of trusting in Jesus Christ. I feel I have been naive. Please advise.

It's quite ironic, isn't it? If Saint Paul weren't in his grave today he would probably say something like this:
Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them. (Acts 14:15)
It seems to me that Mary would be equally offended at being elevated above her Son. In any case, I'm glad to hear that you're following your Biblical convictions. I wish you his Providence finding a new job.

[Ravenonthecross]

Hello

I came to faith in 2003 whilst attending an Alpha Course at a local Baptist Church. I was blessed with a job the following year working for a charity spreading the gospel. It is a Catholic charity. The nuns I work with are, on the whole, lovely. Some are not particularly Christ-like but I have overlooked this. I have, however, come to the point of questioning the validity of the Catholic faith. I am severely depressed; I have spent many years in a role I believed I was called to, spreading the gospel, and yet so much of the material that is distributed does not conform with my beliefs - the deification of the Pope, adoration of Mary, prayers to the saints and other non-scriptural beliefs. I have only just learnt that the Catholic church amended the ten commandments. I am at my wits end; I will not work for an organisation that distributes material that is heretical. I am determined to resign on Monday. I am attending a service to commemorate the final vows of one of the nuns on Sunday; I sneaked a look at the order of service and was shocked to read that the nun is expected to declare that she will 'trust in Mary, Queen of Apostles, and Saint Paul'. No mention is made of trusting in Jesus Christ. I feel I have been naive. Please advise.

We say the Nicene Creed at mass every Sunday:
[QUOTE] I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. God of God, light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And I believe)in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."/QUOTE]

[Ravenonthecross]

We believe in Jesus Christ and worship him alone as God; Mary is never ever elevated to the level of God; She is only given the proper veneration and honor due to her, for God blessed her with being chosen to be the Mother of his Son, our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ.
Given that I would not want any false beliefs about the Catholic Faith perpetuated anywhere. I'm not debating, just clarifying Catholic belief for those who misunderstand it.

[Ravenonthecross]

And if you feel better, you may move my posts to sub-form, where I may reply to Baptists in friendly and cordial manner.
Thank you and good day.

[arunma]

We believe in Jesus Christ and worship him alone as God; Mary is never ever elevated to the level of God; She is only given the proper veneration and honor due to her, for God blessed her with being chosen to be the Mother of his Son, our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ.
Given that I would not want any false beliefs about the Catholic Faith perpetuated anywhere. I'm not debating, just clarifying Catholic belief for those who misunderstand it.

I have no doubt that the Roman Catholic Church intellectually assents to the doctrine of Christ's divinity, which when coupled with the doctrine of monotheism requires that Mary not be elevated to the level of God. Indeed, because of the Catholic Church's adherance to tradition, one will find that Rome intellectually assents to many sound Biblical doctrines, because the ancient fathers taught from the Bible. However, I'm sure you will agree that salvation is not found in intellectual assent to any doctrine, but by trust (faith) in the saving power of Jesus Christ.

I find that the Catholic Church in general, and individual Catholics in particular, have an odd way of adhering on paper to Biblical doctrine, but doing precisely the opposite in practice. For example, Catholics claim that Mary is venerated as the blessed mother of Jesus Christ, yet we find that in practice, they pray to Mary, the Saints, and anyone other than Christ. Christ then becomes some piece of doctrine that is remembered in the believer's mind, but is of little importance. And perhaps the best example of this strange practice is found in your signature. You adamently claim that salvation is found in the Catholic Church alone (let us dismiss, for the moment, that the meaning of the word "Catholic" has changed over the centuries, and that St. Augustine's words may have been misused). Yet your own church proclaims in its catechism and its preaching that Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and anyone else who believes in a higher power may be saved, and that this salvation is somehow tied to the Church. For all your protestations that there is no salvation outside the Church, most of the Church preaches effective universalism. "No salvation outside the Church" is counterbalanced by cop outs on how people who deny the Truth never really understood it, and therefore couldn't have rejected it. This is a gospel of ignorance, not the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Forgive me if I am terribly misunderstanding Roman Catholicism, but from my point of view it seems that for every ancient confession, there is a modern explanation as to why the confession means something other than the obvious intent of the original authors.

[Ravenonthecross]

There are always going to be "cop outs" or "heretics" within the Catholic Church; That does negate the long-centuries held of belief in my signature that:
"No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church."
-St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church

It has always been so; no matter what some dissenters try to squeeze into any new Catechism and Say otherwise.

There will always be a faithful remnant who bow not to Heresies, Infidelities, Heathenism, Idolatry, or Atheism, but instead stay faithful to the whole of Divine Revelation that our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost has issued forth for the instruction and guidance of the faithful; For it is as Christ saith: "And the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church."

[Hentenza]

There are always going to be "cop outs" or "heretics" within the Catholic Church; That does negate the long-centuries held of belief in my signature that:
"No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church."
-St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church

It has always been so; no matter what some dissenters try to squeeze into any new Catechism and Say otherwise.

There will always be a faithful remnant who bow not to Heresies, Infidelities, Heathenism, Idolatry, or Atheism, but instead stay faithful to the whole of Divine Revelation that our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost has issued forth for the instruction and guidance of the faithful; For it is as Christ saith: "And the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church."

I don't belong to the RC because I have found salvation in Christ not in the Roman Catholic Church.

When was John 3:16 changed to add the Roman Catholic Church to God's salvation requirements? Mmmm.....;)

[arunma]

Thank you, Ravenonthecross, for responding to my earlier post. I sense you and I both care enough about the Gospel to have a fruitful discussion on this. But I won't be circuitous here: I do believe the Catholic Church to be apostate. I hope to demonstrate that this is the case, but I am also open to your arguments to the contrary.

There are always going to be "cop outs" or "heretics" within the Catholic Church; That does negate the long-centuries held of belief in my signature that:
"No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church."
-St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church

I certainly don't mean to judge the Catholic Church by its heretics or by cafeteria Catholics, anymore than I would wish for my local church to be misjudged because of the liberal Episcopal church down the road. However, one cannot easily deny that official Catholic doctrine espouses universalistic teachings.

First, I would point out that your interpretation of St. Augustine's teaching on salvation outside the Catholic Church is contradicted by the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Allow me to reference portions of Part One, Section Two, Article Nine. Here is a teaching suggesting to a communion of all men (limited or otherwise) with the Catholic Church:

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."
Presumably the "Catholic faithful" are baptized Roman Catholics, and "others who believe in Christ" include Protestants and all non-Roman Catholics (such as the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox churches). But who are "all mankind?" It can only be non-Christians! Here we have the Catholic Church specifically teaching that non-Christian belong to the catholic unity, adding that they are called by God's grace to salvation. God's calling is always effectual, and one cannot help but regard this teaching as heretical.

Here is a most frightening passage from the same article:


839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,"the first to hear the Word of God."The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ","for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
I emphasize the last line in order to to point to its terrifying consequences. The Catholic Church has been known, in recent times, for withholding the Gospel from our Jewish neighbors, instead believing the lie that a person can be saved by being Jewish. The Catholic Church believes that they are being respectful of Jews, but instead are keeping from them the very thing that they (and all other people) need to be saved from the just wrath of God. In the above passage, we see the Catholic Church casually dismissing the solemn warning of our Lord Christ Jesus in Mark 16:16, "but he that believeth not shall be condemned." Instead, the Catholic Church lives with the pleasant delusion that when Messiah returns, Jews and Christians can come together and simply inquire as to his identity. The Catholic Church fails to recognize that this is how Christ will return:
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords...And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. (Revelation 19:11-16,21)
"Misunderstanding Christ Jesus" as the Catholic Church puts it, will result in being condemned in the eternal fire of hell! Does not the church therefore teach universalism?

It has always been so; no matter what some dissenters try to squeeze into any new Catechism and Say otherwise.

But this isn't just any new Catechism. This is the Catechism approved of by the Catholic Church, from which basic Catholic doctrine is taught. This is what people believe, and universalists within the church (includin the former Pope himself) use such teaching as a basis for teaching their doctrines. It's because of statements like this that the Pope can meet with the Dalai Lama and pay his respects to Buddhism, instead of solemnly warning him that his teachings will result in eternal damnation. My understanding is that Christian doctrine is not like democracy. It can't be changed by shifting opinions or the fickle heart of man; rather it is eternal and absolute. If dissenters have managed to squeeze their universalism into the teaching of the Catholic Church, then have not the gates of hell prevailed against your Church?


There will always be a faithful remnant who bow not to Heresies, Infidelities, Heathenism, Idolatry, or Atheism, but instead stay faithful to the whole of Divine Revelation that our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost has issued forth for the instruction and guidance of the faithful; For it is as Christ saith: "And the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church."

Yes I agree. Our difference of opinion arises from the fact that you still believe the Catholic Church to be redeemable. But when the Pope himself teaches heresy, respect for false religions, and idolatry, how can one ay that the faithful remnant is the Catholic Church?

I do not subscribe to any Gospel of Ignorance! I adhere by Faith and unto Death the Holy Gospel of our Blessed Lord Christ Jesus; And I firmly adhere to our Good Saviour's words in Holy Writ, as Christ saith:

Believe me when I say that I rejoice to hear this, assuming that I properly understand your soteriology. But again: the Catholic Church as a whole doesn't seem to share your sentiments.

[PaladinGirl]

Hello

I came to faith in 2003 whilst attending an Alpha Course at a local Baptist Church. I was blessed with a job the following year working for a charity spreading the gospel. It is a Catholic charity. The nuns I work with are, on the whole, lovely. Some are not particularly Christ-like but I have overlooked this. I have, however, come to the point of questioning the validity of the Catholic faith. I am severely depressed; I have spent many years in a role I believed I was called to, spreading the gospel, and yet so much of the material that is distributed does not conform with my beliefs - the deification of the Pope, adoration of Mary, prayers to the saints and other non-scriptural beliefs. I have only just learnt that the Catholic church amended the ten commandments. I am at my wits end; I will not work for an organisation that distributes material that is heretical. I am determined to resign on Monday. I am attending a service to commemorate the final vows of one of the nuns on Sunday; I sneaked a look at the order of service and was shocked to read that the nun is expected to declare that she will 'trust in Mary, Queen of Apostles, and Saint Paul'. No mention is made of trusting in Jesus Christ. I feel I have been naive. Please advise.

You have come to the right conclusions and therefore, you must follow your conscience. I exhort you to follow your conscience and don't even go to that thing about the nuns on Sunday if it bothers your conscience. I personally wouldn't go.

[arunma]

You have come to the right conclusions and therefore, you must follow your conscience. I exhort you to follow your conscience and don't even go to that thing about the nuns on Sunday if it bothers your conscience. I personally wouldn't go.

Last week you were a Muslim. The week before you were Roman Catholic. What is this?

[PaladinGirl]

Last week you were a Muslim. The week before you were Roman Catholic. What is this?

If you wish to question me about my religion changes, PM me. Do not hijack the thread.

[arunma]

If you wish to question me about my religion changes, PM me. Do not hijack the thread.

You are correct, and I'm sorry for diverting this thread. I've done precisely as you suggested.

[christian73]

To the OP: If God is leading you in this direction, then you must follow. Don't worry about what others think, just worry about what God thinks.

[PaladinGirl]

You are correct, and I'm sorry for diverting this thread. I've done precisely as you suggested.

It's ok. I have replied to your PM.

Ok, back to the topic! ;):P

[DeaconDean]

Ok, here is the deal.

The Greek word "kaqolou," (where the word catholic is derived) or "universal; general" isn't even used in the scriptures. I dare you to show me where it is.

You will not convince one single person in here that the "Catholic Church" is the "universal" church. The "One True Church." In fact, the Catholic church uses a misinterpretation on this point.

In an article written by Cooper P. Abrams, III, he shows that there has been a "mistranslation" of the Greek word "ekklhsia."


Please note that the use of the word "church" does not mean that the Bible has an error. It is common knowledge that the Greek word from which it was translated is "ekklesia." Further the word "church" is used in modern English to denote a local congregation or assembly as well as buildings and denominations. The problem, as this article points out, is that word "ekklesia" would have been better translated "assembly" or "congregation" and in doing so the false teaching of a universal or invisible church would have been avoided. The reason for the article is to uphold the original meaning and use of the word as God intended



The English word "church" has various meanings. Webster gives the following definitions for the word church.

1. a building for public Christian worship. 2. a religious service in such a building. 3. (sometimes cap.) a. the world body of Christian believers; Christendom. b. any major division of his body; a Christian denomination. 4. a Christian congregation. 5. organized religion as distinguished from the state. 6. (cap) a. The Christian before the reformation. b. the Roman Catholic Church. 7. the profession of an ecclesiastic -V.C. 8. to perform a church service of thanksgiving for (a woman after child birth). [Go RI(a)on (DOA) the Lord's house).
Today the word church has a wide variety of meanings from referring to a building to performing a religion service. Although we need to understand the modern use of the word it is of little significance in understanding the use of the word the New Testament. It is essential that we understand its original meaning as it was used in New Testament times. In order to establish a New Testament church we must first know what the word "church" means in Scripture.

In our English Bible the Greek word, "ekklesia" is translated in most places "church." The word "ekklesia" is found in one hundred and fifteen places in the New Testament. It is translated in English one hundred and thirteen times "church" and the remaining times it is translated "assembly." In classical Greek the word "ekklesia" meant "an assembly of citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative assembly." The word as used in the New Testament is taken from the root of this word, which simply means to "call out." In New Testament times the word was exclusively used to represent a group of people assembled together for a particular cause or purpose. It was never used exclusively to refer to a religious meeting or group.

An examination of the Greek word "ekklesia" reveals that the word is properly translated into English as the "assembly" or "congregation." It is used to refer to a group of persons that are organized together for a common purpose and who meet together. Brown states the word was used as early as the 5th Century B.C.:
I. (a) ekklesia, derived via ek-kaleo, which was used for the summons to the army to assemble, from kaleo, to call (--. Call). It is attested from Eur. and Hdt. onwards (5th cent. B.C.), and denotes in the usage of antiquity the popular assembly of the competent full citizens of the polis, city. It reached its greatest importance in the 5th cent, and met at regular intervals (in Athens about 30--40 times a year, elsewhere less frequently) and also in cases of urgency as an extra-ordinary ekklesia. Its sphere of competence included decisions on suggested changes in the law (which could only be effected by the council of the 400), on appointments to official positions and -- at least in its heyday -- on every important question of internal and external policy (contracts, treaties, war and peace, finance). To these was added in special cases (e.g. treason) the task of sitting in judgment, which as a rule fell to regular courts. The ekklesia opened with prayers and sacrifices to the gods of the city.
It should be noted that the word "ekklesia" was used to denote the meeting together of a special assembly. Brown further defines the word as to it political characteristics:

Thus ekklesia, centuries before the translation of the OT and the time of the NT, was clearly characterized as a political phenomenon, repeated according to certain rules and within a certain framework. It was the assembly of full citizens, functionally rooted in the constitution of the democracy, an assembly in which fundamental political and judicial decisions were taken. . . . What is noteworthy, however, is that the word ekklesia, throughout the Gk. and Hel. areas, always retained its reference to the assembly of the polis. In only three exceptional cases was it used for the business meeting of a cultic guild (cf. H. Lietzmann, An die Korintlier, 9, 4). Otherwise it was never used for guilds or religious fellowships. These were referred to by such expressions as thiasos, cultic assembly to worship a god; lit, contract of partnership, but in this context a fellowship which held particular feasts (heorte), to which each participant contributed; koinon, lit, that which is in common (--. Fellowship, art. koinos); or synodos, which meant a group following the same --. way, i.e. the same teaching. Significantly, however, none of words found its way into the NT.

Some conclude that the word can also apply in a limited manner to an invisible or universal church. The Arndt-Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon refers to two such uses. The first is to "the church universal" and uses Matt. 16:18, Acts 9:31, 1 Cor. 6:4, 12:28, Eph. 1:22, 3:10, 21, 5:23ff, 27, 29, 32 as New Testament references of such use. However, it can be argued that Matthew 16:18 is referring to Christ founding the institution of local churches, not to the establishment of a universal church. Christ could have used other words but instead used the word "ekklesia" which limited the meaning to an assembly that comes together.

In Acts 9:31, "ekklesia" is plural and is referring to local congregations geographically located "all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria." In Revelation 2-3 Jesus addressing each of the seven churches in Asia concludes each message with statement "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." The word churches is plural meaning it was addressed to all the individual churches. If there was a universal church then Christ would used the singular word "church" which would have been responsible for correcting this issues in all the churches under it. However, by using the plural word clearly Jesus was making the point He was addressing individual churhces because He did not establish a one church system. 1 Corinthians 6:4 also refers specifically to the church at Corinth and has no application to churches outside that city. The context of 1 Corinthians 12:27-28, in particularly verse 27 "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." Note that verse 27 is a reference is to the "body of Christ" which is the correct term for all believers universally. The phrase "members in particular" seems to refer to membership in a local assembly, which would conclude that verse 28 is also referring to the local "ekklesia" and the believer would be a member. The same argument can be made for Ephesians' passages to refer to local assemblies and not to a universal "assembly" (ekklesia) which would be impossible.

The first English Bible translated from Greek did not translate the word "ekklesia" as church. William Tyndale's translation (1526) correctly used the term "congregation." Tyndale completed the translation of the New Testament and part of the Old Testament before he was martyred. John Rogers, an assistant and friend of William Tyndale, completed the translation of the Old Testament using some work from Coverdale and published the first entire Tyndale Bible under the pen name "Thomas Matthew." This Bible was called the Matthew's Bible (1537) and also used the term "congregation." The next English Bible, the Great Bible (1539), also used the term "congregation." However, in 1557 the Geneva New Testament, produced by William Whittingham, was the first to translate "ekklesia" as "church." It is important to note the Protestant source of this translation.
Because the Geneva Bible was printed in Europe and not in England the English people desired a Bible published in their native country. This was the reason for the next English Bible, the Bishops Bible (1568) which was a revision of the Geneva Bible and this translation continued the use of the term "church" as has all subsequence English translations including the King James Version. This shows that the use of the word "church" instead of "assembly" or "congregation" came from those who had a bias towards a hierarchical and unscriptural form of church government. To have translated the word "ekklesia" accurately into "assembly" or congregation" would have exposed their form of church government as being in error.

The false concept of a universal church is the foundation of the Roman Catholic Church's hecetical teaching that it is the only true church and salvation can only be had through it. This completely distorts the New Testament doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. The use of the word church falsely lends support to this erroneous teaching. Correctly translating the word "ekklesia" as congregation or assembly properly defines the local assembly of believers and gives no support to the false idea of a ruling universal church headed by popes, prophets, or any governing body outside the local group.

The strict definition of the Greek word dictates that the "ekklesia" is to be a local and autonomous congregation which reveals God's program for the assembling of believers. It does not support any form of false doctrine and gives a proper biblical concept of the New Testament church. Sadly, the compromise of knowingly mistranslating the word "ekklesia" has continued the perpetration of false Catholic and Protestant teachings. We can be sympathetic to their situation; but the fact remains that the King James Bible translators and the translators in modern times have had the opportunity to correct this error, yet they failed to do so and contributed to muddying the waters and sadly have upheld a misconception of what a biblical New Testament church should be as the Lord Jesus Christ instituted it.

Link (http://bible-truth.org/Ekklesia.html)

So any arguments here would be baseless. Based upon centuries of teaching that is in error.

It is just a matter of fact that the teaching of a "kaqolou," a "universal, catholic" church, didn't find its way into teaching until some time way later.

Its goundless and baseless according to the Greek scriptures. It isn't found in them, it isn't used in this fashion in them, it isn't there. Period.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[FreeinChrist]

Hello

I came to faith in 2003 whilst attending an Alpha Course at a local Baptist Church. I was blessed with a job the following year working for a charity spreading the gospel. It is a Catholic charity. The nuns I work with are, on the whole, lovely. Some are not particularly Christ-like but I have overlooked this. I have, however, come to the point of questioning the validity of the Catholic faith. I am severely depressed; I have spent many years in a role I believed I was called to, spreading the gospel, and yet so much of the material that is distributed does not conform with my beliefs - the deification of the Pope, adoration of Mary, prayers to the saints and other non-scriptural beliefs. I have only just learnt that the Catholic church amended the ten commandments. I am at my wits end; I will not work for an organisation that distributes material that is heretical. I am determined to resign on Monday. I am attending a service to commemorate the final vows of one of the nuns on Sunday; I sneaked a look at the order of service and was shocked to read that the nun is expected to declare that she will 'trust in Mary, Queen of Apostles, and Saint Paul'. No mention is made of trusting in Jesus Christ. I feel I have been naive. Please advise.


So basically, you are wondering if you should continue in a job for a church group that conflicts with your theological views?

If it is not compatible for you, find another job.


Of course, I don't know if you will be back to this thread to take the advice requested.

[LivingWordUnity]

Hello

I came to faith in 2003 whilst attending an Alpha Course at a local Baptist Church. I was blessed with a job the following year working for a charity spreading the gospel. It is a Catholic charity. The nuns I work with are, on the whole, lovely. Some are not particularly Christ-like but I have overlooked this. I have, however, come to the point of questioning the validity of the Catholic faith. I am severely depressed; I have spent many years in a role I believed I was called to, spreading the gospel, and yet so much of the material that is distributed does not conform with my beliefs - the deification of the Pope, adoration of Mary, prayers to the saints and other non-scriptural beliefs. I have only just learnt that the Catholic church amended the ten commandments. I am at my wits end; I will not work for an organisation that distributes material that is heretical. I am determined to resign on Monday. I am attending a service to commemorate the final vows of one of the nuns on Sunday; I sneaked a look at the order of service and was shocked to read that the nun is expected to declare that she will 'trust in Mary, Queen of Apostles, and Saint Paul'. No mention is made of trusting in Jesus Christ. I feel I have been naive. Please advise.Is this an attempt to bait Catholics? I'm confused as to why you are asking these inflammatory questions in a Baptists only forum knowing that Catholics are not allowed to explain themselves here. Since you are putting Catholics on trial, shouldn't they be given a chance to speak for themselves? Have you tried asking a priest why Catholics do what they do?

When I would ask questions about fundamentalism, at least I did it in a forum that fundamentalists could answer back in.
.

[arunma]

Is this an attempt to bait Catholics? I'm confused as to why you are asking these inflammatory questions in a Baptists only forum knowing that Catholics are not allowed to explain themselves here. Since you are putting Catholics on trial, shouldn't they be given a chance to speak for themselves? Have you tried asking a priest why Catholics do what they do?

When I would ask questions about fundamentalism, at least I did it in a forum that fundamentalists could answer back in.
.

As far as I can tell this is not an attempt to hurl juvenile insults a Catholics. What you must understand, however, is that some of us have given Catholicism a fair hearing, and reject it as apostasy nonetheless. To a person who believes that the word of God is true and inerrant, the practices of the Catholic Church simply can't be reconciled with the teachings of God. Surely most of us have better things to do than spend time on online forums insulting others for fun. The truth is that we who believe the Bible have a genuine concern about the false teachings of the Catholic Church. We are concerned that millions of people are believing in a terrible lie that is wrongly called "gospel," and that they believe their sins are forgiven merely due to their allegiance to the Catholic Church. These are matters of eternal life and death, and I would hope that no one here would use the label of Baptist or Fundamentalist merely to insult Catholics for his own pleasure.

[PaladinGirl]

Is this an attempt to bait Catholics? I'm confused as to why you are asking these inflammatory questions in a Baptists only forum knowing that Catholics are not allowed to explain themselves here. Since you are putting Catholics on trial, shouldn't they be given a chance to speak for themselves? Have you tried asking a priest why Catholics do what they do?

When I would ask questions about fundamentalism, at least I did it in a forum that fundamentalists could answer back in.
.

I see no one baiting Catholics. I also see no one putting Catholics "on trial". What I do see, however, is Catholics coming in here debating against Baptists which is against the rules. :doh:

[FreeinChrist]

So basically, you are wondering if you should continue in a job for a church group that conflicts with your theological views?

If it is not compatible for you, find another job.


Of course, I don't know if you will be back to this thread to take the advice requested.


I am repeating this in response to the Op. I think the question is not to debate Catholicsim but if he should work for an organization that conflicts withhis theology.


And I also note the OP has not come back at all to the thread and posted - if he even read thre responses. hmmmm....I haqve to wonder when a person starts a potentially controversial thread and then never responds...

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

Hi Cailan, yes, you probably were a bit naive. I was too. I enrolled at a Catholic university, undertook some theology courses, my thinking was 'how different could it be?', I was quite surprised when I was called a heretic...
Anyway, I'm not going catholic flaming, if you are feeling so convicted to leave, then perhaps your time in this job is indeed over...
My advice would be straight from the Bible, seek first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness...

[cailan]

No, I was not intending to 'bait' or upset anyone. One of my closest and most dearly-loved colleagues is a Catholic. I am only resposible for putting down on paper/html what has been going through my mind in an attempt to better ascertain what it is my colleagues believe and how I should respond based on my own beliefs. This is the sort of conversation I should perhaps have had three years ago. Apologies for being naive.

Just to clarify, this has only just become an issue. I did not see an issue with working with those who were not Protestant beforehand, otherwise I would quite clearly not have accepted the job. I am not sure why it has suddenly become an issue and this is also something that I am thinking about, and writing about. I am just unsure about things, not discriminatory, or wishing to cause offence.

[mont974x4]

Being naive is not something to apologise for. Learn from it, act accordingly and move on...that's life, and that's growth.

[FreeinChrist]

No, I was not intending to 'bait' or upset anyone. One of my closest and most dearly-loved colleagues is a Catholic. I am only resposible for putting down on paper/html what has been going through my mind in an attempt to better ascertain what it is my colleagues believe and how I should respond based on my own beliefs. This is the sort of conversation I should perhaps have had three years ago. Apologies for being naive.

Just to clarify, this has only just become an issue. I did not see an issue with working with those who were not Protestant beforehand, otherwise I would quite clearly not have accepted the job. I am not sure why it has suddenly become an issue and this is also something that I am thinking about, and writing about. I am just unsure about things, not discriminatory, or wishing to cause offence.


Appreciate the clarification.
There is probably a reason it has become an issue so I would just pray about ir and give it time.

Also, sorry for the comment about posting and not coming back.

[SWigton87]

It seems that advice is not what you need. You've already figured it out. I'll pray for you!

[WarEagle]

Hello

I came to faith in 2003 whilst attending an Alpha Course at a local Baptist Church. I was blessed with a job the following year working for a charity spreading the gospel. It is a Catholic charity. The nuns I work with are, on the whole, lovely. Some are not particularly Christ-like but I have overlooked this. I have, however, come to the point of questioning the validity of the Catholic faith. I am severely depressed; I have spent many years in a role I believed I was called to, spreading the gospel, and yet so much of the material that is distributed does not conform with my beliefs - the deification of the Pope, adoration of Mary, prayers to the saints and other non-scriptural beliefs. I have only just learnt that the Catholic church amended the ten commandments. I am at my wits end; I will not work for an organisation that distributes material that is heretical. I am determined to resign on Monday. I am attending a service to commemorate the final vows of one of the nuns on Sunday; I sneaked a look at the order of service and was shocked to read that the nun is expected to declare that she will 'trust in Mary, Queen of Apostles, and Saint Paul'. No mention is made of trusting in Jesus Christ. I feel I have been naive. Please advise.

I'm sorry you had to learn all of this the hard way, but I think you're doing the right thing by resigning.

I talk to a lot of Roman Catholics, both online and in real life, and they have some pretty crazy ideas.

I used to post on Catholic.com and they have a forum called "evangelization", but you only have to look at one or two threads before you realize that the Roman Catholic idea of evangelism isn't preaching the Gospel, but recruiting people for their church.

On another message board, I once asked the Roman Catholics there to explain the Gospel to me and not one of them could do it. About twenty of them responded to tell me "of course we know what the Gospel is! It's preached every week in our mass!", but then, when I asked them to describe the Gospel they heard preached in mass that week, they couldn't do that either.

It's good that you're getting out.

[VT_Boy]

If you haven't already left then do it. There's other groups that help others that should line up with your beliefs.

[Caedmon]

Hi Cailan, yes, you probably were a bit naive. I was too. I enrolled at a Catholic university, undertook some theology courses, my thinking was 'how different could it be?', I was quite surprised when I was called a heretic...
Anyway, I'm not going catholic flaming, if you are feeling so convicted to leave, then perhaps your time in this job is indeed over...
My advice would be straight from the Bible, seek first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness...
Anyone with enough gall and religious self-absorption to call you "heretic" to your face has psychological issues, in my opinion.