Is financial $$ and riches guaranteed ??

[millerrod]

Is financial wealth and riches guaranteed ??

[Alpine]

No.

[mont974x4]

no, in fact IIRC there's a verse against using the gospel for personal gain in that way.

[millerrod]

I agree you CAN NOT name it and claim it just because you are a Deciple of Christ. If a doctrine teaches this is it a false doctrine ?? Is it of Christ ??

[mont974x4]

I believe it is a false doctrine and is not of Christ because it flips things around. It makes God a sort of cosmic santa clause of sorts bending to our whims and our will when it is us who are to be conforming to His will.

[MrSnow]

My take on this issue is just to not worry about it. To me, it seems that trying to lay claim to the right to riches shows an unhealthy and unbalanced concern for the things of this world. Our inheritance, first and foremost, is God Himself. I'd hate to be seeking another inheritance and lose the One that I already have, and thus lose everything. I'd just as soon not concern myself with the issue. God will provide for me. What I NEED to focus on is being faithful with what I HAVE been given, instead of trying to get more and more of what I have not been given. Sort of reminds me of the 10th commandment. Christ said that if we seek first the kingdom of God and its righteousness, then all these things (food, clothes, etc) will be added unto us.

[millerrod]

:amen::amen: to both posts

[siege]

No...in fact, through one's ministry of spreading the Lord's word He commands not to amass riches:

Matthew:

10:9 `Provide not gold, nor silver, nor brass in your girdles,

10:10 nor scrip for the way, nor two coats, nor sandals, nor staff -- for the workman is worthy of his nourishment.

There may be various reasons for this...I believe one is simply to provide an example of dependence on Him.

A second is so that we DO depend on Him. If we have money to have all we want or need then we would be in a position of not needing Him. He does not want this temptation put upon us.

Another reason I can attest to personally...not having all we need already amassed, He can move us where He wants us by taking away our means where we are at and providing them where He needs us to be. For example...Last year He wanted me to come to Kansas from Florida to deliver specific messages to specific people, as well as learn some things myself. I did not want to leave. In my reluctance to leave...I nearly lost everything and was then forced to leave. I recognized why it was taken from me immediately after I left and fell into obedience. I delivered the messages, having left even my girlfriend behind in Florida for a year now, turned everything else over to Him...and now it is time for me to go back. He has provided the means for me to now get back as well as already setting up the means there for me to get right to work.

Besides the above...I also believe that we should not be "charging" for His messages. When the Lord gives us messages to deliver...they are HIS messages, not ours...what right do we have to copyright and profit from His message?

[Aceofspades77]

I wish it were. Unfortunately there are numerous accounts of the poor and the rich in the Bible. The Bible does speak of being good stewards with what we have though.

[Elijah2]

No.

Nope!:clap:

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

[Angel*Eyes]

No, all of God's promises are CONDITIONAL.

We cannot be passive but for some things we have to seek the Lord to receive what we need.

"Those who seek the Lord shall lack any good thing". {Psalm 34:10}
"Therefore do not worry, saying, 'what shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?'...But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." {Matthew 6:31-33}


Money does have a PURPOSE.
If God does give you a lot of money, it is NOT for you but is for the work of the kingdom.

God gives you what you need to complete your task on earth.

God will give you " suffiency in all things" that" you may have an abundance for every good work" { 2 corinthians 9:6-8}.
So, maybe a person with a gift of giving might receive more money so they can give to others for kingdom purposes.

[Arcon]

we are promised to be taken care of, there may be times we think we are not, but when we get through them we will probably be more thankfull and see that we made it through. some people have a lot, and thats theirs, what they choose to do with it is between them and God. I dont have much now, but at least I can be hopfull and loved. : n ) B. blessed. (just how I look at it)

[dkbwarrior]

Not gauranteed, any more than salvation or healing, but certainly promised. And I don't think I would use the term 'financial $$', but rather 'wealth', as God is not a counterfeiter. That is against the law.

Peace...

[dkbwarrior]

1Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.
2His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.
3Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
-Psalm 112:1-3


Peace...

[didaskalos]

If God takes pleasure in the prosperity of His servants, then He must really be happy when His children prosper!

Psalms 35
27: Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.

Mt:6:
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Sorry... can't help it.

Prosperity just happens to those who have sought His kingdom and His righteousness.

He is certainly good!!!

[mont974x4]

nasb
Php 4:11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.
Php 4:12 I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

And of course, theres 2 Cor 12

God's idea of prosperity rarely matches ours and the Gospel should not be used for selfish gain.

[victoryword]

Financial blessings definitely are not guaranteed to anyone who denies that the Bible teaches that God will bless those who will receive them by faith. They are certainly guaranteed to those who will take God at His Word, fulfill His conditions, and believe that God will do exactly what he says:

2Co 9:6 Remember this: The farmer who plants a few seeds will have a very small harvest. But the farmer who plants because he has received God's blessings will receive a harvest of God's blessings in return.
2Co 9:7 Each of you should give whatever you have decided. You shouldn't be sorry that you gave or feel forced to give, since God loves a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 Besides, God will give you his constantly overflowing kindness. Then, when you always have everything you need, you can do more and more good things.
2Co 9:9 Scripture says, "The righteous person gives freely to the poor. His righteousness continues forever."
2Co 9:10 God gives seed to the farmer and food to those who need to eat. God will also give you seed and multiply it. In your lives he will increase the things you do that have his approval.
2Co 9:11 God will make you rich enough so that you can always be generous. Your generosity will produce thanksgiving to God because of us. (God's Word Translation)

Those who gave an unqualifying "no" to the question will never see God's financial provision in the abundance that is possible to them because they simply disbelieve God's Word. Don't hate me because I tell you the truth now. The Bible backs me on this. Remember the 10 spies in Numbers 13 and 14?

[didaskalos]

nasb
Php 4:11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.
Php 4:12 I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

And of course, theres 2 Cor 12

God's idea of prosperity rarely matches ours and the Gospel should not be used for selfish gain.


Who said anything about selfish gain? That is quite a judgment to lay against people you do not even know. Since I have sought the kingdom of God and His righteousness and thereafter had all these things added to me.. I am therefore "selfish?" I did not come to the gospel to get rich. I do not remain in the gospel because He has made me rich. I have been poor, and I have lived on resort islands.
You can be content in poverty if you want.
I will strive to be content in prosperity. But to do so is not selfish... only inevitable.
I submit the critics of prosperity are doing both God and His children a great disservice by suggesting they are greedy and He is the enabler to their "selfishness." (sic)

[seekthetruth909]

Financial blessings definitely are not guaranteed to anyone who denies that the Bible teaches that God will bless those who will receive them by faith. They are certainly guaranteed to those who will take God at His Word, fulfill His conditions, and believe that God will do exactly what he says:
2Co 9:6 Remember this: The farmer who plants a few seeds will have a very small harvest. But the farmer who plants because he has received God's blessings will receive a harvest of God's blessings in return.
2Co 9:7 Each of you should give whatever you have decided. You shouldn't be sorry that you gave or feel forced to give, since God loves a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 Besides, God will give you his constantly overflowing kindness. Then, when you always have everything you need, you can do more and more good things.
2Co 9:9 Scripture says, "The righteous person gives freely to the poor. His righteousness continues forever."
2Co 9:10 God gives seed to the farmer and food to those who need to eat. God will also give you seed and multiply it. In your lives he will increase the things you do that have his approval.
2Co 9:11 God will make you rich enough so that you can always be generous. Your generosity will produce thanksgiving to God because of us. (God's Word Translation)
Those who gave an unqualifying "no" to the question will never see God's financial provision in the abundance that is possible to them because they simply disbelieve God's Word. Don't hate me because I tell you the truth now. The Bible backs me on this. Remember the 10 spies in Numbers 13 and 14?

Could you please explain why Paul and the other apostles appear to have failed in this regard since they spent much of their ministries in poverty? God may bless you with wealth but it has no bearing on faith, if it did it would mean that Paul and the other apostles had little faith. [although they were willing to sacifice their lives for God.]

God Bless

Bible references:
8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have become kings-and that without us! How I wish that you really had become kings so that we might be kings with you! 9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men. 10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.
1 Corinthians 4

4 Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; 5 in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; 2 Corinthians 6:4-5

36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned[a]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
Hebrews 11:36-38

[ImmersionX]

Is financial wealth and riches guaranteed ??

IN the bible? NO.
If a preacher states this, he/she is full of it.(not the Spirit mind you.) =)

And since this is the "debate" forum...I WILL state this emphatically:

The "health/wealth", "Prosperity", "Pray/Get Pay", "Plant a Seed/Get a Jungle" gospels are all FALSE and they are all complete HERESY!
If you follow any of these "gospels" in church/personal life, you are following THE snake of all snakes.



Peace and God Bless.

[victoryword]

Could you please explain why Paul and the other apostles appear to have failed in this regard since they spent much of their ministries in poverty? God may bless you with wealth but it has no bearing on faith, if it did it would mean that Paul and the other apostles had little faith. [although they were willing to sacifice their lives for God.]

God Bless

Bible references:
8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have become kings-and that without us! How I wish that you really had become kings so that we might be kings with you! 9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men. 10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.
1 Corinthians 4

4 Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; 5 in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; 2 Corinthians 6:4-5

36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned[a]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
Hebrews 11:36-38

Can you tell me why you deny the truth of 2 Cor. 9:6-12 based on your own personal prooftexts? Are you saying that the passage never worked for Paul even though he is the very one that taught it?

Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

[ImmersionX]

IN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTHFUL DEBATE:


God's financial provision

The quoted text is from a post in this thread...it is also a man made concept, and totally not based in scripture.
I cannot quote anything in the bible to support that rubbish, so I won't.

Peace and God Bless.

[victoryword]

IN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTHFUL DEBATE:




The quoted text is from a post in this thread...it is also a man made concept, and totally not based in scripture.
I cannot quote anything in the bible to support that rubbish, so I won't.

Peace and God Bless.

Actually what you are unable to do is quote anything from the Bible to support your post.

[ImmersionX]

Actually what you are unable to do is quote anything from the Bible to support your post.

Thanks for knowing me oh so very well...why so defensive and yet so insulting?

So back to the OP eh?
:thumbsup:

Peace and God Bless.

[victoryword]

Thanks for knowing me oh so very well...why so defensive and yet so insulting?

So back to the OP eh?
:thumbsup:

Peace and God Bless.

Don't have to know you when I see posts written in opposition to a doctrine but the poster fails to back it up by any Biblical reference. No need to know the person, only need to read the post and observe the lack of Biblical support in it.

Insulting. Not really. Just pointing out the obvious. Defensive. No need to be when there is nothing to defend against. A person's post must have some substance before one is required to offer a defense against it.

[ImmersionX]

thanks again.

So I don't derail this thread:

Tell me about "God's financial provision".

[victoryword]

thanks again.

So I don't derail this thread:

Tell me about "God's financial provision".

Read 2 Cor. 9:6-8; Luke 6:38; and Phil. 4:14-19. These passages will tell you all that you need to know.

[Jimbeaux]

Not gauranteed, any more than salvation or healing, but certainly promised. And I don't think I would use the term 'financial $$', but rather 'wealth', as God is not a counterfeiter. That is against the law.

Peace...

Isn’t a promise a guarantee? Especially when God, who is faithful who promised, when He makes a promise?

According to any English dictionary, A guarantee is “a promise or an assurance, especially one given in writing, that attests to the quality or durability of a product or service or a pledge that something will be performed in a specified manner and time.’

You are not saying (are you?) that every Christian has been promised financial wealth

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[victoryword]

You are not saying (are you?) that every Christian has been promised financial wealth




Do you believe that the Bible is God's Word in its entirety?

[New_Wineskin]

quote
Is financial wealth and riches guaranteed ??

If they were guaranteed , we would all have them . None would even ask the question .

[dkbwarrior]

Isn’t a promise a guarantee? Especially when God, who is faithful who promised, when He makes a promise?

According to any English dictionary, A guarantee is “a promise or an assurance, especially one given in writing, that attests to the quality or durability of a product or service or a pledge that something will be performed in a specified manner and time.’


Jim, I am not going there with you. You know exactly what I mean. I don't care what you call it, gaurantee, provision, promise. The only reason this has ever been an issue is because you every so often try to win a debate by getting someone to say 'gaurantee' so you can respond by saying, "if its gauranteed then why doesn't eryone have it".

Any one with even one quarter of a brain knows what is being said, so who are you trying to convince, only those with IQ's less than 50?

God makes promises in His Word. You can call them gaurantees, or provisions, or provisional gaurantees, but everyone understands that nothing is actually gauranteed but death. Every provisional gaurantee, or promise, has covenant conditions, namely the faith to receive it and love towards God and man, the New Testament commands.


You are not saying (are you?) that every Christian has been promised financial wealth
~Jim


No, because as I said, God is not a counterfeiter.

I am saying that every believer has been promised the power to get wealth.

Some cultures do not define wealth by financial measure, ie, dollars and cents.

But God has promised to give us more than enough to meet all of our own needs, and have enough left over to give to every good work.

That would take a lot of wealth, because there are perhaps 100's of thousands of good works going on at any one time around the world. I don't know about you, but I have not yet arrived where I have enough to give to every good work.

Peace...

[didaskalos]

quote
Is financial wealth and riches guaranteed ??

If they were guaranteed , we would all have them . None would even ask the question .
It is God's will that all be saved. Christ died for all mankind.
Are they all saved?
No.

[didaskalos]

IN the bible? NO.
If a preacher states this, he/she is full of it.(not the Spirit mind you.) =)

And since this is the "debate" forum...I WILL state this emphatically:

The "health/wealth", "Prosperity", "Pray/Get Pay", "Plant a Seed/Get a Jungle" gospels are all FALSE and they are all complete HERESY!
If you follow any of these "gospels" in church/personal life, you are following THE snake of all snakes.

Peace and God Bless.

Garbage.
I fully believe in the prosperity that God has provided to ALL who will believe.
You are doing the devils work both by dissuading people from believing God AND depriving those people from experiencing the blessing He has for them.
I am not talking about "getting rich" or being greedy. I am talking about people who need to feed their children and pay their bills. I am talking about putting shoes on the kids feet and escaping poverty. YOU and people like you are condemning all the unfortunates who listen to your foolishness to suffering needlessless.
You are responsibe for teaching against the clear word of God an laying a terrible burden on people who beleive your ignorant words.
It is on YOUR head.
You are even depriving God of the pleasure that He receives by viewing His people prosper.
Shame on you.
People, God wants your to live in prosperity, to live a full and meaningful life. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your wanting the best for your wife and children. Live in the light of the word and recieve all He has for you.
Shun these false religionists like the plague. I have yet to meet ONE who lives the poverty they preach. But they sure want to keep you down in the dirt.
Do not even listen to their poison and lies.

[dkbwarrior]

Garbage.
I fully believe in the prosperity that God has provided to ALL who will believe.
You are doing the devils work both by dissuading people from believing God AND depriving those people from experiencing the blessing He has for them.
I am not talking about "getting rich" or being greedy. I am talking about people who need to feed their children and pay their bills. I am talking about putting shoes on the kids feet and escaping poverty. YOU and people like you are condemning all the unfortunates who listen to your foolishness to suffering needlessless.
You are responsibe for teaching against the clear word of God an laying a terrible burden on people who beleive your ignorant words.
It is on YOUR head.
You are even depriving God of the pleasure that He receives by viewing His people prosper.
Shame on you.
People, God wants your to live in prosperity, to live a full and meaningful life. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your wanting the best for your wife and children. Live in the light of the word and recieve all He has for you.
Shun these false religionists like the plague. I have yet to meet ONE who lives the poverty they preach. But they sure want to keep you down in the dirt.
Do not even listen to their poison and lies.

Harsh words but true.

I recently was pulled aside after a message I gave by a man in his mid 50's, who began to spout this nonsense to me. He repeatedly referred to Jesus telling the rich young ruler to sell all that he has and give to the poor, and told me that I should not be teaching that God wants people to prosper.

I heard him out for awhile, (not that I hadn't heard all this before), then asked him to tell me a little bit about himself. Turns out he is a satellite data interpreter who makes well over 100.00 an hour, and has several IRA's and mutual funds in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I finally stopped him and asked him this, "If you really believe all that you have told me, when are you cashing in your IRA's and giving them to the poor?" He told me that this was for retirement, he couldn't give them away, what would he live on when he retired? I asked him where exactly are we instructed to retire?

He just couldn't quite see the hypocrisy of a man who is rich in many peoples eyes telling others that they shouldn't be, and using a scripture that he wasn't even following himself to make his point.

Peace...

[millerrod]

Garbage.
I fully believe in the prosperity that God has provided to ALL who will believe.
You are doing the devils work both by dissuading people from believing God AND depriving those people from experiencing the blessing He has for them.
I am not talking about "getting rich" or being greedy. I am talking about people who need to feed their children and pay their bills. I am talking about putting shoes on the kids feet and escaping poverty. YOU and people like you are condemning all the unfortunates who listen to your foolishness to suffering needlessless.
You are responsibe for teaching against the clear word of God an laying a terrible burden on people who beleive your ignorant words.
It is on YOUR head.
You are even depriving God of the pleasure that He receives by viewing His people prosper.
Shame on you.
People, God wants your to live in prosperity, to live a full and meaningful life. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your wanting the best for your wife and children. Live in the light of the word and recieve all He has for you.
Shun these false religionists like the plague. I have yet to meet ONE who lives the poverty they preach. But they sure want to keep you down in the dirt.
Do not even listen to their poison and lies.


May want to be careful with calling people ignorant-fool :

Mat 5:22 But i say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of judgement: and whosoever shall say to his brother , Raca, shall be in danger of the council: But whosoever shall say TOU FOOL, SHALL BE IN DANGER OF HELL FIRE.

[dkbwarrior]

May want to be careful with calling people ignorant-fool :

Mat 5:22 But i say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of judgement: and whosoever shall say to his brother , Raca, shall be in danger of the council: But whosoever shall say TOU FOOL, SHALL BE IN DANGER OF HELL FIRE.

He was responding to a post that used much stronger language than he did. Though I think your point is valid, I wonder why you addressed it to him, and not the one who used the harsher language.

Peace...

[millerrod]

When a misionary goes to another country to start a church and to spread the Gospel. Most live just as poor as the people they are sent to reach.
They live in the same huts, they eat the same foods, they have the same bugs crawling on them, they become just as dirty and their cloths are just as sweat filled as those they have loved enough to come and help.
They are poor in flesh, they may not have money or fine cloths.
They have nothing but Gods Word in their hands and willing lips that spread Gods Word and the desire to serve God even if that means being poor in the flesh and even if that means their flesh may be killed by those wanting to silence Gods Voice.
To the world they are poor, to the world they are without, but to God they are Saints, to those around them they are a Light.
To the world yes they are poor but in spirit they are rich.
When will we learn, when will we teach that to be RICH is to be RICH IN SPIRIT !! Brother rod

[millerrod]

He was responding to a post that used much stronger language than he did. Though I think your point is valid, I wonder why you addressed it to him, and not the one who used the harsher language.

Peace...
I only read his post or i would have addressed both maybe both will read.
I respect dids and just as he expects better from me, i expect better from him. I find no offense with him calling me on how or what i may say and actually expect him to do so, i would think he has no problem with me doing the same for him. rod

[didaskalos]

May want to be careful with calling people ignorant-fool :

Mat 5:22 But i say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of judgement: and whosoever shall say to his brother , Raca, shall be in danger of the council: But whosoever shall say TOU FOOL, SHALL BE IN DANGER OF HELL FIRE.

Learn how to read.
I said the words were ignorant (and they are) and the message was foolish (and it is).

This one belongs to those who listen to there ignorant message of poverty and want:

Prov:10:
21: The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.

I like the idea of feeding many. When I was in poverty I would barely feed myself.

Ps:35:
27 Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.

I will continue to please God with faith and by baring fruit by His word. Get mad if you want.
And I do become angry at the foolish and ignorant words of people who have no care or compassion on the people who need Gods healing and God's provision. They need to repent of the foolish words that they speak.

[didaskalos]

When a misionary goes to another country to start a church and to spread the Gospel. Most live just as poor as the people they are sent to reach.
They live in the same huts, they eat the same foods, they have the same bugs crawling on them, they become just as dirty and their cloths are just as sweat filled as those they have loved enough to come and help.
They are poor in flesh, they may not have money or fine cloths.
They have nothing but Gods Word in their hands and willing lips that spread Gods Word and the desire to serve God even if that means being poor in the flesh and even if that means their flesh may be killed by those wanting to silence Gods Voice.
To the world they are poor, to the world they are without, but to God they are Saints, to those around them they are a Light.
To the world yes they are poor but in spirit they are rich.
When will we learn, when will we teach that to be RICH is to be RICH IN SPIRIT !! Brother rod
What does that have to do with the OP?
People do make sacrifices.
But you do not have to be a missionary or live in a third world country to be in poverty or have bugs craw on you. Been there and done that.
Do you live in a hut and eat crab grass? Do you live in rags and are your children in want? If not... your post is meaningless because you have no idea what you are talking about.

[millerrod]

ok dids

[millerrod]

Learn how to read.
I said the words were ignorant (and they are) and the message was foolish (and it is).

This one belongs to those who listen to there ignorant message of poverty and want:

Prov:10:
21: The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.

I like the idea of feeding many. When I was in poverty I would barely feed myself.

Ps:35:
27 Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.

I will continue to please God with faith and by baring fruit by His word. Get mad if you want.
And I do become angry at the foolish and ignorant words of people who have no care or compassion on the people who need Gods healing and God's provision. They need to repent of the foolish words that they speak.

God is pleased when we Love all people and when we Love God in this is God pleased.
We all are in need of repenting brother you , i and everyone else.
I am not angry brother as a matter of fact i am more at peace than i have ever been in my whole life.
God is using me and i have wonderful brothers and sisters that Love me and a Lord whos hand is in mine whos voice i hear. truthfully i dont think on this side of heaven i could be any more at peace than i am.
No anger here brother none at all !!

[didaskalos]

I only read his post or i would have addressed both maybe both will read.
I respect dids and just as he expects better from me, i expect better from him. I find no offense with him calling me on how or what i may say and actually expect him to do so, i would think he has no problem with me doing the same for him. rod
Really?

I have heard of people denying their children medical care because of their foolish religion.
I have heard of people who refuse their children education for religion.
I have no respect for them. They are child abusers. Their obsession over a phony religion is resulting in their families suffering.
How should I feel about people who preach against prosperity and healing? They are so obsessed with the prosperity and healing message that they are actually try and talk others out of Gods blessings. Talk people OUT of believing God!!!! They call us money grubbers and greedy, while most of them live in a comparative lap of luxury. Not a one of them practice the life of poverty they religiously try and force on others. Not a one of them would hesitate to go to a doctor to relieve their own suffering.

IMO they are no better than those who refuse medical care for their children.

And no... I have no more respect for them either.

[didaskalos]

God is pleased when we Love all people and when we Love God in this is God pleased.
We all are in need of repenting brother you , i and everyone else.
I am not angry brother as a matter of fact i am more at peace than i have ever been in my whole life.
God is using me and i have wonderful brothers and sisters that Love me and a Lord whos hand is in mine whos voice i hear. truthfully i dont think on this side of heaven i could be any more at peace than i am.
No anger here brother none at all !!
I do become angry because I actually care about the people I speak to. I care that they are being made to feel selfish and even evil because they want their needs met. I do not repent of that because that is what real living people do. It is brought on by empathizing with the suffering, and not just preaching empty religion at them. I have been sick.... even to death. I have been impoverished. I know what they are going though. And so it makes my blood boil when I read this nonsense. My heart trembles when some phony equates Gods message and those who speak it with "snakes."
And I am GLAD that I feel this. It tells me that I am alive and that I have a spirit in me that feels for the hurting and becomes indignant with the hypocrites. People who say these things really need to stop and think how their words effect the needy and those who need healing.
You may as well be putting a gun to their head and pulling the trigger.

[millerrod]

Ok dids !!
just so you know i do take my children to the Dr. as well as ask God for their healing. I guess i figure God has given those in the health field the wisdom they have. I believe if a cure for a disease is found by man it was by God giving them the wisdom to find it. So yes i believe in using Dr. and taking meds if need be along with prayer. rod

[didaskalos]

Ok dids !!
just so you know i do take my children to the Dr. as well as ask God for their healing. I guess i figure God has given those in the health field the wisdom they have. I believe if a cure for a disease is found by man it was by God giving them the wisdom to find it. So yes i believe in using Dr. and taking meds if need be along with prayer. rod
Great...
Now give the peole who have needs a break and let them pray to God for releif. They are not selfish, greedy, nor are they snakes.

[millerrod]

Great...
Now give the peole who have needs a break and let them pray to God for releif. They are not selfish, greedy, nor are they snakes.

Dids what is wrong with you where did i ever say that anyone should not pray for relief. nor have i called anyone selfish, greedy or say they were a snake. I HAVE NEVER SAID THESE THINGs get off your horse brother and just stop you know good and well i have not said these things.
I pray every day that i have enough to pay my bills and for my childrens health.
Now stop putting words in my mouth that i have not said.

[victoryword]

quote
Is financial wealth and riches guaranteed ??

If they were guaranteed , we would all have them . None would even ask the question .

Well, I suppose it all depends on how one defines "guaranteed." Is a "guarantee" always without conditions or stipulations? Does a "guarantee" mean that we will not encounter trials and challenges before we receive what was promised? If this is what is meant by a "guarantee" then this could be where the confusion resides.

When God "guarantee" something, usually it is the result of some act of obedience on our part. God is a God of reciprocity. he believes in the "give and take" relationship. He tells us to perform a specific action and He intends to do a certain action when we have obeyed Him in performing the assignment he gave us.

In the case of prosperity (and when I speak of prosperity, I define it basically the same way that we read in didaskalos' excellent posts - it is God providing for the needs of His children in abundance), God has told us to give. When we do that He has promised a greater return on that giving. Our failure to obey Him in our giving (and our subsequent asking and praying) disqualifies us from any guarantee that was given. The guarantee is made clear in such passages as Luke 6:38; 2 Cor. 9:6-12; and Phil. 4:15-19, but this guarantee is only in response to having obeyed the conditions set forth.

So a guarantee of "financial wealth" (i.e., God supplying our needs abundantly) does not mean it all just falls into our lap. It means that God remains true to His Word and we can be assured that He fulfills His promise when we obey His commands.

[millerrod]

Well, I suppose it all depends on how one defines "guaranteed." Is a "guarantee" always without conditions or stipulations? Does a "guarantee" mean that we will not encounter trials and challenges before we receive what was promised? If this is what is meant by a "guarantee" then this could be where the confusion resides.

When God "guarantee" something, usually it is the result of some act of obedience on our part. God is a God of reciprocity. he believes in the "give and take" relationship. He tells us to perform a specific action and He intends to do a certain action when we have obeyed Him in performing the assignment he gave us.

In the case of prosperity (and when I speak of prosperity, I define it basically the same way that we read in didaskalos' excellent posts - it is God providing for the needs of His children in abundance), God has told us to give. When we do that He has promised a greater return on that giving. Our failure to obey Him in our giving (and our subsequent asking and praying) disqualifies us from any guarantee that was given. The guarantee is made clear in such passages as Luke 6:38; 2 Cor. 9:6-12; and Phil. 4:15-19, but this guarantee is only in response to having obeyed the conditions set forth.

So a guarantee of "financial wealth" (i.e., God supplying our needs abundantly) does not mean it all just falls into our lap. It means that God remains true to His Word and we can be assured that He fulfills His promise when we obey His commands.

I am just asking this to see if i understand what your saying is what you are saying this ; That the more obident we are to God the more financial gain $$ we will have , is that what your saying ??

[victoryword]

Dids what is wrong with you where did i ever say that anyone should not pray for relief. nor have i called anyone selfish, greedy or say they were a snake. I HAVE NEVER SAID THESE THINGs get off your horse brother and just stop you know good and well i have not said these things.
I pray every day that i have enough to pay my bills and for my childrens health.
Now stop putting words in my mouth that i have not said.

I think dids was talking in general and not to you specifically. So many who are opposed to the message of health and prosperity - and some have valid reasons for their opposition - are too often broad-brushing everyone who seems to believe that God wants to do "more than barely enough" for His children. Because we advocate this we are lumped in with the scheisters who manipulate people out of their money with the promise that God will give them riches beyond their wildest dreams if they just give to __________ ministry.

In their zeal to castigate these ministry manipulatpors, they go to the opposite extreme and even deny the very promises set forth in Scripture concerning God's financial provison. While believing that they are protecting the unwary from wolves, they end up destroying their faith in God's generosity, making God to appear to be a parsimonious deity who blesses and withholds blessings based on nothing more than sovereign whims. The promises of Scripture are too often ignored or reinterpreted to fit within a neo-calvinistic paradigm.

I believe that dids response to your post simply provided him a sounding board to address this overall concern.

[millerrod]

No doubt i sure felt the blow of being the sounding board !!
By the way victoryword if you dont mind answering the questian i asked ya. thanks

[victoryword]

I am just asking this to see if i understand what your saying is what you are saying this ; That the more obident we are to God the more financial gain $$ we will have , is that what your saying ??

That all depnds. Let me first say that I do NOT define Biblical prosperity as "being a millionaire." I define it as having one's needs met while having more than enough to support the work of God (giving to those less fortunate, helping the many missionaries who sacrifice their lives for the gospel of Christ, giving to Larry Jones, etc.).

Now having said that, the Bible is clear that our receiving of God's blessings is commensurate with our obedience:

2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

The Bible itself teaches that the amount we give in obedience determines the return that we shall receive. Now that amount may vary from person to person, based on the principle of the widow with the two mites, who Jesus said gave more than all the rich folks there. A lady on welfare giving $10.00 may be more in God's eyes than a Millionaire giving $100.00. Nonetheless, the more we are willing to do determines the blessing we receive in return.

It's a Bible principle.

[millerrod]

That all depnds. Let me first say that I do NOT define Biblical prosperity as "being a millionaire." I define it as having one's needs met while having more than enough to support the work of God (giving to those less fortunate, helping the many missionaries who sacrifice their lives for the gospel of Christ, giving to Larry Jones, etc.).

Now having said that, the Bible is clear that our receiving of God's blessings is commensurate with our obedience:

2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

The Bible itself teaches that the amount we give in obedience determines the return that we shall receive. Now that amount may vary from person to person, based on the principle of the widow with the two mites, who Jesus said gave more than all the rich folks there. A lady on welfare giving $10.00 may be more in God's eyes than a Millionaire giving $100.00. Nonetheless, the more we are willing to do determines the blessing we receive in return.

It's a Bible principle.

I understand what you are saying wouldnt you agree its a fine line how this is taught. let me explain;
I have had many people come to me thinking that they were poor because they did something wrong. example a man who is 80 years old comes and says i have been obident to God and did the best i could i worked hard all my life rasied my family with God as the base i have prayed and yet now i am 80 years old and they are taking my farm to pay for my nursing home bill. With tears running done his wrinkled face he asks [ what did I do wrong ]
You see we have a responsibility to teach both side of the coin. Yes God has promised us prosperity and richness but we also have to teach what is prosperity and what is true riches if we dont teach both side of the coin then many will be filled with guilt asking themselves [what did i do wrong ]
You see this old man may have been losing his farm and financialy poor but yet he was rich and was prosperious because his whole family was Saved as was all his grandchildren saved and serving the Lord.
You see what i am saying there is a fine line in what we teach and what the results are of those teachings.
I dont see anyone as being right or wrong i just see a need of the WHOLE of Gods Word being taught when we teach but one side of the coin the value of the coin is but half its worth.
Yes God has given us many promises but we have a responsibility to teach the whole meaning of those promises and not just part. Brother rod

[victoryword]

I understand what you are saying wouldnt you agree its a fine line how this is taught. let me explain;
I have had many people come to me thinking that they were poor because they did something wrong. example a man who is 80 years old comes and says i have been obident to God and did the best i could i worked hard all my life rasied my family with God as the base i have prayed and yet now i am 80 years old and they are taking my farm to pay for my nursing home bill. With tears running done his wrinkled face he asks [ what did I do wrong ]
You see we have a responsibility to teach both side of the coin. Yes God has promised us prosperity and richness but we also have to teach what is prosperity and what is true riches if we dont teach both side of the coin then many will be filled with guilt asking themselves [what did i do wrong ]
You see this old man may have been losing his farm and financialy poor but yet he was rich and was prosperious because his whole family was Saved as was all his grandchildren saved and serving the Lord.
You see what i am saying there is a fine line in what we teach and what the results are of those teachings.
I dont see anyone as being right or wrong i just see a need of the WHOLE of Gods Word being taught when we teach but one side of the coin the value of the coin is but half its worth.
Yes God has given us many promises but we have a responsibility to teach the whole meaning of those promises and not just part. Brother rod

Rod

I would be the last to say that this old saint "did something wrong." Even Job lost everything in spite of the fact that he did nothing wrong. I am no man's judge. And yes, fundamental prosperity is the salvation of all loved ones. That is something greater than material blessings.

The old guy may have done nothing wrong but was simply a casualty of the warfare we are all engaged in just as Job was. However, I am also sure that if this man will trust God in the midst of this adversity, God will bless Him with more than he had before, even in his old age. Even more, God will bless his decsendants due to his faithfulness.

The thing I would caution anyone against is saying that it was God's will for him to lose that farm. I would not blame God or the farmer. I blame the fact that we are in a warfare against forces hostile to God and His children, but a war that we can win if we will trust God and stand on His Word.

[millerrod]

agree. What you just stated is one more part in a whole teaching. When the whole is taught no Gilt burdens the person but if we teach in part the part that tickles ears it is then that unneeded guilt is placed upon people by not teaching the whole of Gods Word

[New_Wineskin]

quote
It is God's will that all be saved. Christ died for all mankind.
Are they all saved?
No.

You didn't read the thread topic .

The topic was about a "gaurantee" - not "will" . Did the Lord "guarantee" that all will be saved ? No . If He did guarantee all would be saved , they would be . If He *did* guarantee all would be rich , we would be .

[dkbwarrior]

quote
It is God's will that all be saved. Christ died for all mankind.
Are they all saved?
No.

You didn't read the thread topic .

The topic was about a "gaurantee" - not "will" . Did the Lord "guarantee" that all will be saved ? No . If He did guarantee all would be saved , they would be . If He *did* guarantee all would be rich , we would be .

Well, if ya want to be technical...;)

I think we all know that the OP was a challenge to the so-called 'prosperity gospel'. Millerod is a very smart guy, he is no slouch to be sure. And he has a history on these boards of disagreeing with the 'prosperity gospel'.

He is smart enough to know that no one believes that financial dollars are gauranteed, in the technically narrow sense that you just placed it. He put the OP in those words to engender debate, as this is a debate suforum. And he did a good job.

The bible is full of promises of prosperity and wealth, (as well as promises that we will suffer persecution for His sake), as well as promises of health, and favour, and deliverance from ones enemies, and children, etc. etc. etc. It would be a very cut up and small bible indeed if we removed all of these promises.

On the other hand, some have been known to use this for personal gain at the expense of others, and some have gone outside of scripture and abused it, to their own shame. And this has engendered some backlash.

But that doesn't invalidate a responsible and godly acceptance of the promises of God, in an objective and reasoned manner. There is a reason that there has been a movement of God in the area of finance. God is doing something, and it is big. You can be sure it is for the propogation of the gospel and the increase of the kingdom.

So lets not throw out what God is doing simply because some abuse it and/or misuse it.

Peace...

[dkbwarrior]

When a misionary goes to another country to start a church and to spread the Gospel. Most live just as poor as the people they are sent to reach.
They live in the same huts, they eat the same foods, they have the same bugs crawling on them, they become just as dirty and their cloths are just as sweat filled as those they have loved enough to come and help.
They are poor in flesh, they may not have money or fine cloths.
They have nothing but Gods Word in their hands and willing lips that spread Gods Word and the desire to serve God even if that means being poor in the flesh and even if that means their flesh may be killed by those wanting to silence Gods Voice.
To the world they are poor, to the world they are without, but to God they are Saints, to those around them they are a Light.
To the world yes they are poor but in spirit they are rich.
When will we learn, when will we teach that to be RICH is to be RICH IN SPIRIT !! Brother rod

You bring up a really good point here. Although I have a slightly different take on it.

People choosing to put themselves in such a position for the gospels sake is the key here. God didn't make them do it, they chose it.

Rememnber when Paul was arrested in Jersusalem? Before he got there, twice he was prophesied over to tell him that he would be bound if he went to Jerusalem. It occured to me one day to question why God wanted Paul to know that he was going to go to jail when he went? I would assume it was because God did not want me to go.

But Pauls relationship with Jesus was so far above what most of us walk in, that he basically said to God, "Hey, I know that you don't want me to go get locked up, but I am ready to do this for the gospel and for you. It is my sacrifice to make and I am ready."

There is another interesting passage in Hebreews 11 where it talks about the prophets of old being persecuted and sawn in sunder and all that. There is a little passage hidden in the text there that says they were tortured, "...not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better ressurection."

I am convinced that God is no respecter of persons, and that all the promises of God are yes and amen for all of Gods people. He wants the best for us. But there is a time when we grow up, and are ready to willingly sacrifice some of these temporal benefits, even our lives themselves for the sake of the gospel.

One of the problems with being against the promises of God for individuals, is that it puts one in the position of poeple thinking that their sacrifice is a requirement, rather than a gift. It is a skewed view of the Father, IMHO.

But this is not a requirement of God, it is a choice we make.

Peace...

[mont974x4]

Who said anything about selfish gain? That is quite a judgment to lay against people you do not even know. Since I have sought the kingdom of God and His righteousness and thereafter had all these things added to me.. I am therefore "selfish?" I did not come to the gospel to get rich. I do not remain in the gospel because He has made me rich. I have been poor, and I have lived on resort islands.
You can be content in poverty if you want.
I will strive to be content in prosperity. But to do so is not selfish... only inevitable.
I submit the critics of prosperity are doing both God and His children a great disservice by suggesting they are greedy and He is the enabler to their "selfishness." (sic)

Did I direct that post at anyone here? No.
We can not deny that people do use the Gospel for selfish means and the Bible adresses that.


The fact remains that many godly and faithful men and women do not have great wealth in this life, at least by mens standards.


A quick test of any teaching is whether or not its universal. Can this health and welath gospel be applied to every nation and culture? No, it can not.

What are going to say to the man in Ethiopia who does not own a Rolex even though he is extremely faithful and is a mature Christian?

What do you say to godly women who develops breast cancer?


I've lived in a borrowed tent moving form campground to campground and I've owned a home. Do I prefer owning a home? Sure. Do I praise God for His provision? Absolutley. Am I content in every situation because I trust God and I know He will do what He will in and through me as a willing vessel because He loves me and is faithful to give me what He knows I need instead of what I think I need? Yes


Am I against those who are wealthy? No, I praise God that He has blessed them. Am I going to tell the poor that they will be rich in this life? No, I don't want to spread that lie.

[millerrod]

Well, if ya want to be technical...;)

I think we all know that the OP was a challenge to the so-called 'prosperity gospel'. Millerod is a very smart guy, he is no slouch to be sure. And he has a history on these boards of disagreeing with the 'prosperity gospel'.

He is smart enough to know that no one believes that financial dollars are gauranteed, in the technically narrow sense that you just placed it. He put the OP in those words to engender debate, as this is a debate suforum. And he did a good job.

The bible is full of promises of prosperity and wealth, (as well as promises that we will suffer persecution for His sake), as well as promises of health, and favour, and deliverance from ones enemies, and children, etc. etc. etc. It would be a very cut up and small bible indeed if we removed all of these promises.

On the other hand, some have been known to use this for personal gain at the expense of others, and some have gone outside of scripture and abused it, to their own shame. And this has engendered some backlash.

But that doesn't invalidate a responsible and godly acceptance of the promises of God, in an objective and reasoned manner. There is a reason that there has been a movement of God in the area of finance. God is doing something, and it is big. You can be sure it is for the propogation of the gospel and the increase of the kingdom.

So lets not throw out what God is doing simply because some abuse it and/or misuse it.

Peace...

Brother i am glad you posted this because it gives me a chance to explain what i was hopeing someday people would see what i believe God has been trying to do over the last year on this forum.
Many feel like i am against the WOF doctrine that i support one group and am against another group. This is not true by any means.
I am not against the prosperity doctrine or the healing doctrine what i am against concerning these things are [ teaching them in peart ] something both groups are guilty of.
When we teach in part people get hurt unneeded guilt can be placed vanity can grow, alot of stumbling blocks can arise. Or they are without hope and lack Faith.
I AM NOT ANTI WOF i am anti teaching half of a whole of Gods Word.
Teaching the good half of things increase numbers at a church in the short term and increase a churchs finances $$ but we all know thats not what its about, its about Christ and Truth. And Both come into fulness when the whole of Gods Word is taught.
My intent has always been to provoke both side to debate and then when people read and study both non wof and wof my hope was that in doing so both sides of the coin would be taught, both sides seen, the WHOLE of Gods Word taught by two opposing groups of people.
My intent was to never support or come against either group but to draw out Truth from both groups.
In doing so i have been misunderstood and have lost a few friends but its not about me, its about all of us wrestling for Gods Truth seeing two sides of each issue , its about learning the WHOLE OF GODS WORD nothing more nothing less.
Both groups both non wof and wof are right neither is wrong and both are guilty of teaching in part.
You see brothers and sisters that old man who lost his farm touched my heart. And his eyes and his tears taught me that we must teach the whole of Gods Word not just the parts that sound good or feel good.
We must teach both sides of the coin, the whole of Gods Word.
No group is wrong, actually both groups are right. Two sides of ONE coin.
Our wounds will heal when it is understood both groups are right and no one was ever wrong. God has shaken us all so the Whole of His Word would be revealed and i believe it has been.
We will all heal as will the forum heal, we will have grown and the forum will eventually be better than it has ever been. But that will only happen when both groups realize they are both right and they both need to teach the whole of Gods Word. Brother rod

[dkbwarrior]

We can not deny that people do use the Gospel for selfish means and the Bible adresses that.


We are in 100% agreement on that.


The fact remains that many godly and faithful men and women do not have great wealth in this life, at least by mens standards.


True, but how does that address anything we are talking about?

The only way that would be worth the words to say it would be if you thought a persons circumstance was somehow a proof of Gods will for their life, and it is not.

Only the Word of God can set the standard for what God Wills, not someones circumstance.

Alot of godly men and women still struggle with private sins in their lives, everything from gossip to lust. Alot of godly men and women are not healed. Alot of godly men and women worry about things. For that matter, alot of godly men and women have not yet been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Does this mean that God wills for them to struggle with gossip and lust? Does this prove that God does not want them healed? Does this mean God wants them to worry, rather than cast their care on Him? Does this prove that God does not want some to be baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Things of God don't come by being godly, they come by faith. Because someone is poor, doesn't mean that this is Gods will for them.


A quick test of any teaching is whether or not its universal. Can this health and welath gospel be applied to every nation and culture? No, it can not.


I disagree. If it cannot, then why is the so-called 'health and wealth' gospel spreading the fastest in Africa, and other third world countries?

There was an interesting article in Christianity Today last year called "Health and Wealth In Africa, How The Prosperity Gospel Is Taking A Continent By Storm".

It was written by those who are not sympathetic to the message in question. They interviewed some denominational church leaders who bemoaned the fact that they had missionaries in country for decades that could barely hold together some small congregations, only to watch in astonishment as the advent of christian TV and mass crusades have sprouted mega churches almost overnight, and in some countries a plurality of the population is now converted, whith the largest single group of those believers being of what you call the 'health and wealth' variety.

I could go on and on about how mainline protestant christianity is decreasing, and being replaced and overrun by the new move of God, and bringing with it the conversion of masses of new believers from third world countries.

In fact, WOF, what you would call the 'health and wealth' gospel, is the only arm of protestant christianity that is growing exponentially around the world right now. This of course, is what happens with every new move of God initially, until it gets denominationalized and watered down over time.
I encourage you to do some research. There is a book called The Encyclopedia of the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement that has facts and figures for every known population of the world, and tracks them from Azusa street to the present.


What are going to say to the man in Ethiopia who does not own a Rolex even though he is extremely faithful and is a mature Christian?

What do you say to godly women who develops breast cancer?


The good news that God can prosper you and God can heal you.


I've lived in a borrowed tent moving form campground to campground and I've owned a home. Do I prefer owning a home? Sure. Do I praise God for His provision? Absolutley. Am I content in every situation because I trust God and I know He will do what He will in and through me as a willing vessel because He loves me and is faithful to give me what He knows I need instead of what I think I need? Yes


That is good. But do you have enough to give to every good work? That is the purpose of prosperity. It is good that you have enough, but what about your neighbor?

God is able to give us sufficiency in all things so that we have more than enough for our own needs, and enough to give to every good work. Us four and no more doesn't help the rest of the world much, does it? If one cannot feed himself, how can he feed his neighbor.

If you don't want money, then believe God for money and give it to those who need it.


Am I against those who are wealthy? No, I praise God that He has blessed them. Am I going to tell the poor that they will be rich in this life? No, I don't want to spread that lie.

Well, Okay, you tell them what you want to. I will tell them this:

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
-2 Corinthians 8:9

Peace...

[dkbwarrior]

Brother i am glad you posted this because it gives me a chance to explain what i was hopeing someday people would see what i believe God has been trying to do over the last year on this forum.
Many feel like i am against the WOF doctrine that i support one group and am against another group. This is not true by any means.
I am not against the prosperity doctrine or the healing doctrine what i am against concerning these things are [ teaching them in peart ] something both groups are guilty of.
When we teach in part people get hurt unneeded guilt can be placed vanity can grow, alot of stumbling blocks can arise. Or they are without hope and lack Faith.
I AM NOT ANTI WOF i am anti teaching half of a whole of Gods Word.
Teaching the good half of things increase numbers at a church in the short term and increase a churchs finances $$ but we all know thats not what its about, its about Christ and Truth. And Both come into fulness when the whole of Gods Word is taught.
My intent has always been to provoke both side to debate and then when people read and study both non wof and wof my hope was that in doing so both sides of the coin would be taught, both sides seen, the WHOLE of Gods Word taught by two opposing groups of people.
My intent was to never support or come against either group but to draw out Truth from both groups.
In doing so i have been misunderstood and have lost a few friends but its not about me, its about all of us wrestling for Gods Truth seeing two sides of each issue , its about learning the WHOLE OF GODS WORD nothing more nothing less.
Both groups both non wof and wof are right neither is wrong and both are guilty of teaching in part.
You see brothers and sisters that old man who lost his farm touched my heart. And his eyes and his tears taught me that we must teach the whole of Gods Word not just the parts that sound good or feel good.
We must teach both sides of the coin, the whole of Gods Word.
No group is wrong, actually both groups are right. Two sides of ONE coin.
Our wounds will heal when it is understood both groups are right and no one was ever wrong. God has shaken us all so the Whole of His Word would be revealed and i believe it has been.
We will all heal as will the forum heal, we will have grown and the forum will eventually be better than it has ever been. But that will only happen when both groups realize they are both right and they both need to teach the whole of Gods Word. Brother rod

This post touched me millerod.

I know we have been at odds before, but I understand the move of a peacemaker when I see it. I am sure that we will disagree again, probably sooner than later, but I apologize for having at times misjudged your motives.

One of the attributes of love is that it believes the best of people, (unless there is obvious proof otherwise of course.) Therefore I take you at your word that you are not anti-whatever. I wish above all things to walk in love with my brethren. One thing we should never do is judge anothers intent. We are not God.

Thank you for your post.

Peace...

[mont974x4]

WoF tickles ears. That is why it grows. People want hear that things are going to be just peachy if they are saved. The fact is we are promised tough times, with a safe landing at the end. We can not look at Scripture and the examples of godly men and women and deny that they had good times and bad through no fault of their own. It is the cost of living for Christ, as living Sacrifices, and often just a fact of life while still in this world.


Yes, God does prosper us and He does heal us...but rarely the way the WoF movement claims and it is used far to often as a beating stick on the backs of those who need compassion the most. You should have seen the horrible things said and done to a godly woman I know that had a miscarriage. And that is just one of many cases I personally witnessed.


We are rich, we have every need met, but there is no guarantee of massive physical wealth in this life. We lay up our treasure in Heaven where it can not be stolen or destroyed.


Personally, we give out of our need and out of our blessing. But that is not relevant to this discussioon, IMO.

[dkbwarrior]

WoF tickles ears. That is why it grows.


Okay, then you should not have made that argument. It is a little unfair to set a rule, and then when you lose, change the rule. Unless the truth is really not what you are after, but only justifying the mind set that you have aquired.


People want hear that things are going to be just peachy if they are saved.


I challenge you to show find a single quote where any well known and accepted minister within the WOF movement has ever said anything remotely like "get saved and things will be just peachy".

I guess it is a good accusation to make, because it is so easy to knock down; the only problem is it isn't true.

WOF teaches that we can appropriate the blessings of God through faith and patience, and that it is a neverending lifelong process.

You receive revelation of the promise of God for a situation, you believe you recieve, and then you stand with patience through the feiry trial of your faith, the circumstances that willl try to convince you that the promise is not true, until you receive the promise.

You hold fast your profession of faith, whether it takes months or days or years.


The fact is we are promised tough times, with a safe landing at the end. We can not look at Scripture and the examples of godly men and women and deny that they had good times and bad through no fault of their own. It is the cost of living for Christ, as living Sacrifices, and often just a fact of life while still in this world.


I agree that bad things happen constantly without rhyme or reason, and through no fault of the person affected. But the ear tickling doctrine is the one that says there is nothing we can do to change things, because it may be God teaching us something, or some other such nonsense. That requires nothing from us but to do what we were doing anyway, suffering.

It takes effort to grab hold of the promise of God, and change the circumstance through prayer and faith. It is the labour that we are called to.


Yes, God does prosper us and He does heal us...but rarely the way the WoF movement claims and it is used far to often as a beating stick on the backs of those who need compassion the most. You should have seen the horrible things said and done to a godly woman I know that had a miscarriage. And that is just one of many cases I personally witnessed.


I am just reading between the lines here but it seems that you have confused the general WOF movement with some of the extremes that have occured. I am sorry for that, and any hurt to the woman that you mention. Every move of God has extremes, and immaturity, and other things. But I can assure you that this is not representative of what WOF is really about.

Peace...

[millerrod]

WoF tickles ears. That is why it grows. People want hear that things are going to be just peachy if they are saved. The fact is we are promised tough times, with a safe landing at the end. We can not look at Scripture and the examples of godly men and women and deny that they had good times and bad through no fault of their own. It is the cost of living for Christ, as living Sacrifices, and often just a fact of life while still in this world.


Yes, God does prosper us and He does heal us...but rarely the way the WoF movement claims and it is used far to often as a beating stick on the backs of those who need compassion the most. You should have seen the horrible things said and done to a godly woman I know that had a miscarriage. And that is just one of many cases I personally witnessed.


We are rich, we have every need met, but there is no guarantee of massive physical wealth in this life. We lay up our treasure in Heaven where it can not be stolen or destroyed.


Personally, we give out of our need and out of our blessing. But that is not relevant to this discussioon, IMO.

Brother their [ wof ] zeal for recieving Gods blessings is not a bad thing as a matter of fact its just that kind of zeal that can move mountians in Christs name. The side of the coin you are representing is just as important as the side of the coin they represent. If you could take what they believe and teach and add it to your beliefs and if they could take your beliefs and add them to their beliefs and if both could teach the WHOLE the Body of Christ would be a fire of TRUTH that would scorch the earth.
They can and do support their beliefs with scripture and you can and do support your beliefs with scripture, is it then not clear you are both right and when both beliefs are combined and taught the WHOLE of Gods Word is then seen the WHOE of Gods Truth revealed.
The reality is there are false preachers in ALL the different churches whos only concern is numbers and $$ it is true there is no shortage of ear ticklers in the world today, thats just that much more reason for us to preach and teach the WHOLE of Gods Word no matter whos group we fall into. Brother rod

[LJSGM]

Is financial wealth and riches guaranteed ??

Guaranteed? If you do what? Do good? Have faith in Christ? Claim riches in Christ's name?

[millerrod]

I stated it vaguely so it would be answered broadly !!

[LJSGM]

Wealth does nothing for us Christians spiritually, rather, I think that it mostly hinders our spiritual walk. That is why I don't think God throws material blessings at us. God offers us healing, but I wouldn't say it's guaranteed in that, sometimes, or maybe even a lot of times, suffering causes a growth in character, hope and love among other things.

James 4:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=4&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

This says to me that we can ask for money, but that God gives it so that we should spend it on doing good and other selfless acts of righteousness, or perhaps basic needs.

[mont974x4]

I never changed the rules.

I spent 4 years in a Wof Church. The health, wealth prosperity gospel was preached almost every Sunday. And the basic premise is that life is peachy if you are holy. You will be healthy and rich if you just have enough faith.

If you have been lucky enough to not encounter the extreme teachings of hardcore WoF, I am happy for you. That has not been so in my case. What I have seen is that instead of sharing the whole Gospel and the entire truth of what it means to follow Christ, people are promised the moon and God is treated like a cosmic santa clause. Then when life gets in the way the people are blamed. The people are told they are not holy enough. They are told sin got in the way. They are told that they lack faith. Instead of coming alongside them and helping bear burdens they are beat up on and end up questioning their faith and God.


God gives good gifts and many times that is to leave us in our adversity, like Paul continuing with his thorn in the flesh, for His perfect will and His purposes.


I won't get started on the "Just send me this "seed" and watch the money roll in" charlatans. :doh:

OK, I'm out. Our church is having a family fun day. I truly hope ya'll have a blessed weekend, secure in His hands.


Jay

[ImmersionX]

I spent 4 years in a Wof Church. The health, wealth prosperity gospel was preached almost every Sunday. And the basic premise is that life is peachy if you are holy. You will be healthy and rich if you just have enough faith.

Agreed, and I am not speaking for the poster of whom I took this quote...but I will speak on behalf of myself: I am anti-WoF....if you have questions about that, feel free to PM me. That's all I gotta say on that subject.

[JimfromOhio]

There are teachers who preaches the main messages that are money, health and self-fulfillment. My concept of such teachings is that they focuses on self-centereds in terms of "faith" towards health, wealth and prosperity rather than God-centered. I don't view these as the essentials of Christian life and practice. We live in a world which places great emphasis on beauty, wealth and power and some teachers will take advantage of the souls and use Christianity to gain wealth. Such teachers only want your money (2 Peter 2:3).

Reading 1 Timothy 4 explains that Christians must choose their priorities carefully like an athlete as to have disciplined lives forgo some desires that may hinder doing God's will and please God as you are after God's own heart. One example is excessive longing for wealth and gaining money to live in luxury. We are not to covet with Faith.

[didaskalos]

All WoFers please allow our ex-WoFers to express their opinions first.
What do all you ex-WoF experts think about E.W.Keyon's teaching about speaking in tongues?

Do you believe that all believers can speak in tongues?

[Jimbeaux]

All WoFers please allow our ex-WoFers to express their opinions first.
What do all you ex-WoF experts think about E.W.Keyon's teaching about speaking in tongues?

Do you believe that all believers can speak in tongues?

Sure, I believe all Christians can (and should) speak in tongues from the moment they are saved. But I didn’t know E.W. Kenyon did. He was never Pentecostal and from my research he never spoke in tongues. Pentecostals (esp. of the WOF flavor) will say he did (of course) but from what I am able to gather there is not a word about tongues in all his writings.

If you can show me otherwise, I will retract this statement.

But what has that to do with the OP?

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[New_Wineskin]

quote
He is smart enough to know that no one believes that financial dollars are gauranteed, in the technically narrow sense that you just placed it. He put the OP in those words to engender debate, as this is a debate suforum. And he did a good job.


If no one believed it , no one would be defending it - or intentionally lying by changing the word into something else in order to defend the idea or refute someone else . It would simply be left alone . Or , there would be an admission that it was not guaranteed and explain the difference between that word and the word that they would use . But , that would be off topic as the topic deals with a "guarantee" . A promise would be good enough . But , again , there is no such promise from the Lord because the Lord would keep such a promise and we would all be wealthy .

If none believed it , there would be no opposition in the thread . Unless ... you think the barkers are that stupid to simply argue about something that they know isn't true .

[JimfromOhio]

quote
He is smart enough to know that no one believes that financial dollars are gauranteed, in the technically narrow sense that you just placed it. He put the OP in those words to engender debate, as this is a debate suforum. And he did a good job.


If no one believed it , no one would be defending it - or intentionally lying by changing the word into something else in order to defend the idea or refute someone else . It would simply be left alone . Or , there would be an admission that it was not guaranteed and explain the difference between that word and the word that they would use . But , that would be off topic as the topic deals with a "guarantee" . A promise would be good enough . But , again , there is no such promise from the Lord because the Lord would keep such a promise and we would all be wealthy .

If none believed it , there would be no opposition in the thread . Unless ... you think the barkers are that stupid to simply argue about something that they know isn't true .

Good points. :thumbsup:

[dkbwarrior]

If no one believed it , no one would be defending it


No one is...

Please show me a post where someone sad that it was gauranteed..


Or , there would be an admission that it was not guaranteed and explain the difference between that word and the word that they would use .


You mean like this:


No, all of God's promises are CONDITIONAL.


Or this:


Not gauranteed, any more than salvation or healing, but certainly promised. And I don't think I would use the term 'financial $$', but rather 'wealth', as God is not a counterfeiter. That is against the law.


Didn't both of those posts, (as well as several others in this thread), do just that?


But , that would be off topic as the topic deals with a "guarantee" . A promise would be good enough . But , again , there is no such promise from the Lord...


Really? What exactly are these then:

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
-2 Corinthians 8:9

18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
-Deuteronomy 8:18

1 Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.
3 Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
-Psalm 112:1, 3

13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
-Proverbs 3:13, 16

12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
-Proverbs 8:12, 18

4 By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life.
-Proverbs 22:4

3 Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:
4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.
-Proverbs 24:3-4

22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.
-Proverbs 13:22

6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7 For your shame ye shall have double…
-Isaiah 61:6-7

5Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces [riches] of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
-Isaiah 60:5

11Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces [riches] of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
-Isaiah 60:11

9O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.
-Psalm 34:9

1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
-Psalm 23:1

10The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.
-Psalm 34:10

38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
-Luke 6:38

8And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
9(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
10Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
11Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
-2 Corinthians 9:8-11



because the Lord would keep such a promise and we would all be wealthy.


Hmmm...

Like the Lord promises to give his children perfect peace? Why then are so many christians divorced? For that matter, why are they stressed at all? Wouldn't we all just walk around like floating clouds, perfectly at peace all the time?

Or do we have to appropriate His peace by using the Word and faith to walk in His promises?

Promises are not automatic. They must be received day by day.

Peace...

[dkbwarrior]

Good points. :thumbsup:

I guess, if you take into consideration that not one of them is true...

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

No one is...

Please show me a post where someone sad that it was gauranteed..



You mean like this:



Or this:



Didn't both of those posts, (as well as several others in this thread), do just that?



Really? What exactly are these then:

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
-2 Corinthians 8:9

18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
-Deuteronomy 8:18

1 Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.
3 Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
-Psalm 112:1, 3

13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
-Proverbs 3:13, 16

12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
-Proverbs 8:12, 18

4 By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life.
-Proverbs 22:4

3 Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:
4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.
-Proverbs 24:3-4

22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.
-Proverbs 13:22

6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7 For your shame ye shall have double…
-Isaiah 61:6-7

5Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces [riches] of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
-Isaiah 60:5

11Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces [riches] of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
-Isaiah 60:11

9O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.
-Psalm 34:9

1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
-Psalm 23:1

10The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.
-Psalm 34:10

38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
-Luke 6:38

8And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
9(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
10Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
11Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
-2 Corinthians 9:8-11




Hmmm...

Like the Lord promises to give his children perfect peace? Why then are so many christians divorced? For that matter, why are they stressed at all? Wouldn't we all just walk around like floating clouds, perfectly at peace all the time?

Or do we have to appropriate His peace by using the Word and faith to walk in His promises?

Promises are not automatic. They must be received day by day.

Peace...


The Bible provides a clear understanding of genuine saving faith-true faith produces good fruit. It is great to know that God produces maturity in all believers who are abiding in Christ and in His Word. Love is NOT conditional however discipleship is conditional. Abiding in Christ evidences genuine salvation through the works of the Holy Spirit, not self-work of faith that have formats set by man's doctrines. Abiding in Faith means to endure without yielding, to accept without objection, to remain stable or fixed in a state, to continue in a place. The word "abide" basically means "to remain." A true Christian abides. We depend on Him for grace and power to obey. We look obediently to His Word for instruction on how to live according to HIS WILL, NOT WHAT we WANT.

[seekthetruth909]

Can you tell me why you deny the truth of 2 Cor. 9:6-12 based on your own personal prooftexts? Are you saying that the passage never worked for Paul even though he is the very one that taught it?


2 Corinthians 9:6-12 (NIV)
Sowing Generously
6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:
"He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever."[a] 10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.
12This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God.


Let's look at Cor 9. I have highlighted key phrases.In verse 8, Having all you need, is not the same as being rich. In verse 9 and 10, it is clear that giving is rewarded in a harvest of righteousness, or spiritual riches.

In verse 11 you do have a point, rich in every way does seem to indicate financial riches besides spiritual riches,but is Paul speaking specifically to the Corinth church which was known for their riches?

In 1Cor 4,2 Cor 6, and Hebrews 11, Paul speaks of how poor he and the other apostles are. As a matter of fact in 1Cor 4, Paul seems to be criticizing the first Christian prosperity doctrine by making a point of how much he and the other apostles are poor and suffering for the gospel.Then we have dozens of other scriptures supporting this view.

Matthew 6:19-21 1 Timothy 6:17-18 1 Timothy 6:3-10 1 Peter 5:2 1 Corinthians 9 17 2 Corinthians 2 17 Acts 20 33 James 4:3 Matt.19:23-24
Luke 12:15 Heb. 13:5 Col. 3:2 2 Corinthians 11:12-14 Matthew 24:11 Matthew 24:24 2 Corinthians 11:12-14 2 Peter 2:1 James 5:1-3 1 John 4:1-7

The evidence is overwhelming. Taking one line form 2 Cor 9:11, [which seems to directed at a specific rich church] and basing a doctrine around it, when there are so many scriptures that show that $$ prosperity is not guaranteed, does not seem logical or biblical.

I can accept a prosperity doctrine that is not guaranteed or based on faith. [since the apostles own poverty prove that faith has no bearing on prosperity]
Sometimes God may choose to prosper a person, but to claim that only Christians in America and a dozen other western countries have faith because of their high standard of living, and third world Christians are poor, because of their lack of faith, is completely untrue. If that were true we could tie faith to economics. When America is booming we have faith and when in recession we have less faith. [Then Wof must be having a faith crises recently because they are paying a lot more for gas and food and in the process becoming poorer.]

Apostle Paul criticized the church at Corinth because they were becoming deceived by a prosperity doctrine so he told them to give generously and they would reap a harvest, but he also told them of the true riches and faith he and the other apostles had, by wearing rags, suffering from hunger, living in caves, and being martyrs for Christ. Trusting in God no matter how bad things get is true faith, and keeping our eye on the true riches that await in heaven, rather than earthly things, is true prosperity.

[dkbwarrior]

Sometimes God may choose to prosper a person, but to claim that only Christians in America and a dozen other western countries have faith because of their high standard of living, and third world Christians are poor, because of their lack of faith, is completely untrue. If that were true we could tie faith to economics.


Well, then you should go to my church, or Kenneth Copelands, or even Creflo Dollars, because none of us believe this either. Of course, if you actually read these threads, you would know that, unless you are being purposefly dishonest. ;)


Apostle Paul criticized the church at Corinth because they were becoming deceived by a prosperity doctrine...


That sounds inventive. You have an artists imagination. Good for you. Could you show me where this is said?

Peace...

[FireyAngel]

Back to the OP

Is it guaranteed? - Nope! And there is no First Bank of Jehovah that has 24/7 ATM machines running for us.

[BenAdam]

MOD HAT

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i10/benadam/misc/benny-hinn.jpg

This thread is being closed at the request of the OP, as requested in this thread: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7257722.
If you'd like to continue with this debate, please feel free to start a new thread on the subject.
Thank you for your understanding in this matter.

/MOD HAT