So I just figured out what the Messianic Way forum is

[Lulav]

its a place for those who don't want there to be such a thing as Messianic Jews to come and bash them, how sad. :(

[Talmidah]

Uh. Okay.

[simchat_torah]

lol, and to think i stood up for you lulav.

[ShirChadash]

its a place for those who don't want there to be such a thing as Messianic Jews to come and bash them, how sad. :(

OH is THAt what it is? :doh:

[Qalevra]

its a place for those who don't want there to be such a thing as Messianic Jews to come and bash them, how sad. :(

Odd. With all the Jew-bashing going on here, I thought it was the staging grounds for the JudenToten Parade. I guess we'll both have to be disappointed then.

[Lulav]

I didn't expect you to agree, since most of you were involved in the thread I was reading and how you don't want MJ's in Israel, and how we are all, oh nevermind, you know what you said in kristi's thread, why pretend?

[ShirChadash]

I didn't expect you to agree, since most of you were involved in the thread I was reading and how you don't want MJ's in Israel, and how we are all, oh nevermind, you know what you said in kristi's thread, why pretend?
there's a huge difference between not wanting people in Israel, and not wanting to see the Orthodox in Israel targetted for conversion and attacks, Lulav!

[Talmidah]

Oh please...nobody's pretending. At least I certainly hope we're all being honest about who we are and what we think.

[ShirChadash]

Oh please...nobody's pretending. At least I certainly hope we're all being honest about who we are and what we think.
That would be nice, I think.

[Qalevra]

No pretending here. I don't think I've ever minced words on this. If people want to incorporate Jewish practice into their Christian faith, I actually don't care, but when they disguise themselves as Jews to devour those Jews who are unable to defend themselves; well, yes, I have a problem with that. And when such people want to come to Israel to proselytise, and turn Israel into a Christian nation, I have a monumental problem with that. This is fairly common Jewish thought; why the surprise?

[Kris10leigh]

:doh:

This is bound to happen when people generalize.

Statments like "Christians are horrible because they believe..." is always bad because it is a generalization. There ARE exceptions to every rule. To say that MJ's shouldn't be in Israel is a statement that (I think) was made in disgust, and truly didn't mean "ALL" MJ's shouldn't be there. I think perhaps it was meant to mean those who are trying to convert, and doing so in an unkind (horrific) manner. But we're all getting a bit defensive now and each group is standing up for his/her own. And who could blame us all?

[Lulav]

Well then, maybe we need to correct who it is who is "getting the attention". The Messianics could maybe do with their fair share, huh?

http://jchannel.blogspot.com/2008/03...-beckford.html (http://jchannel.blogspot.com/2008/03/messianic-missionary-eddie-beckford.html)

You know, what did I expect from people who want to be able to freely smear Jews with no reply back. I don't know why I ever thought this place could be useful for genuine dialogue... I am wasting time here, I guess.

Oh come now....A messianic would NEVER do anything like that!

Except that he was arraigned, found guilty, and sentenced for his own violent acts.

But hey at least he wasn't barking like the Chrstians (http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47591636&postcount=48) or firebombing like the Jews (http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47591636&postcount=48) seem to be doing these days.

It's because of things like this that I expressed so strongly in the other thread that I don't want to see messianics in Israel. Where can a Jew live in peace then?

And this, ironically from a non Jew speaking to a blood born Jew

And you think that is all they are doing. This shows me you do not understand the Jewish position at all.

You know, I have my own issues with some hareidi segments, but in this, they are doing what is proper....how many times did Hashem command that idolaters be thrown out and their 'high places' destroyed. Its too bad not many today have the guts to do that these days.

At least these guys are doing something to protect our people and land! Oh the venom, :(

what's that? hey -- you just be sure not to leave skid marks on my back when you run me down with your vehicle, so it's hard to prove your guilt, mmkay?

Yes, surely in anyones definition, this is the 'messianic way'..

What a sad , sad day.

:cry:

[GerTzedek]

I don't think any of the Orthodox Jews have ever pretended they wanted Messianic Judaism to exist, nor have any of the Orthodox Jews ever pretended that they want Jews involved in Christianity in any size, shape, or form. Not in this forum. Not in the old MJ forum. Not in any forum.

Lulav, I agree the forum got shamefully ugly, on all sides. I had to take a break. For whatever part I played, I apologize. Yesterday I prayed about it for a while because, quite frankly, someone said something that was so toxic it disturbed me to my very core, and that should never happen. After all, as HaShem reminded me, its only a forum. I wish I could reach out and give you a hug.

HE is real. All the rest of this is shadows in comparison.

[ShirChadash]

And this, ironically from a non Jew speaking to a blood born Jew


Oh? Ironic that I am studying, will convert, and already I understand more of the Jewish position? That's not irony, that's a downright shame. And not on my part.

[ChavaK]

Well, on this forum there aren't any Messianic Jews to bash
(excluding you and I don't see us bashing you). All I see is Messianic Gentiles.
One of which seems to delight in trashing Jews and Judaism.
So it is perfectly acceptable for us to go into defense mode.

[ShirChadash]

But we're all getting a bit defensive now and each group is standing up for his/her own. And who could blame us all?
And you're right. For my part, I am done with it. My apologies to anyone I've hurt. It's pretty hard to see someone constantly throwing unfounded accusation after insult, and not stand up to say WHOA, kettle meet pot, and while we're at it, have you noticed you can't even verify that it was indeed the pot that was actually black?

[ChavaK]

Of course Jews do not want Messianic Jews to exist and we don't want them
in HaShem's land.
Of course Messianics would love Jews to all be Messianic, and would love to
have Israel filled with them.
I mean, let's get real here. Is this any big surprise to anyone???

[ShirChadash]

Of course Jews do not want Messianic Jews to exist and we don't want them
in HaShem's land.
Of course Messianics would love Jews to all be Messianic, and would love to
have Israel filled with them.
I mean, let's get real here. Is this any big surprise to anyone???
I just can't imagine this is some huge shock and certainly no shock to the normative Jews here that Chr*tians want all Jews to believe in jsus and all.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Of course Jews do not want Messianic Jews to exist and we don't want them
in HaShem's land.
Of course Messianics would love Jews to all be Messianic, and would love to
have Israel filled with them.
I mean, let's get real here. Is this any big surprise to anyone??? That is the reality of things. But I think the Messianics were looking for some middle ground, not a base ball bat. Now they will be faced with the truth.

[ShirChadash]

That is the reality of things. But I think the Messianics were looking for some middle ground, not a base ball bat. Now they will be faced with the truth.No -- he used his fists. Well... and a car.

[Talmidah]

A car....hmmmm......I guess that's more efficient than a baseball bat.... :shrug:

[kivi]

Kivi says: A little history lesson, Maestro:

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History__Part_29_-_The_Revolt_of_the_Maccabees.asp

"
http://articles.aish.com/graphics/articles/part29_maccabees_230x150.jpg by Rabbi Ken Spiro
"The Jewish revolt against the Greeks sets a precedent in human history - it becomes the world's first religious war.
Email thisPrint this (javascript:showEtfForm('top','jewishhistory'))

We know the details of the Jewish fight against the Greeks and Hellenism from the two Books of the Maccabees as well as the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus.
These chronicles are not included in the Hebrew Bible because the Men of the Great Assembly had decided many years earlier what the Hebrew Bible should consist of and these events occurred much later in time. The Books of the Maccabees were both written in the first century BCE. I Maccabees was originally written in Hebrew as an official court history for the Hasmonean Dynasty. II Maccabees was originally written in Greek and based on earlier work written by Jason of Cyrene.
This revolt of the Jews sets a precedent in human history. It is the world's first ideological/religious war. No one in the ancient world died for their gods; only the Jews thought that their religion -- the only monotheistic religion at the time -- was worth dying for.
But it is not just a war against the Greeks, it is also a civil war -- Jews, who were loyal to Judaism, fighting other Jews, who had become Hellenized and who were siding with the Greeks.
The year is 167 BCE and the horrible persecution of Judaism by the Greeks is in full swing. The Greek troops show up in the town of Modi'in (a site west of Jerusalem which you can visit today off the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv highway) and demand that the Jews there sacrifice a pig to the Greek gods. The elder of the town, Mattathias, who is a cohen, that is of the priestly class, refuses. Even if all the nations that live under the rule of the king obey him, and have chosen to do his commandments, departing each one from the religion of his fathers, yet I and my sons and my brothers will live by the covenant of our fathers...We will not obey the king's word by turning aside from our religion to the right hand or to the left. (I Maccabees 2:19-22)
But there is a Hellenized Jew in the town who is willing to do what is unspeakable in Jewish eyes. As he's about to sacrifice the pig, Mattathias stabs him, also killing the Greek official present. He then turns to the crowd and announces: "Follow me, all of you who are for God's law and stand by the covenant." (1 Maccabees 2:27)
Those who join Mattathias and his five sons -- named Yohanan, Shimon, Judah, Eleazar, Yonaton -- head for the hills, expecting that the Greeks are going to come back and wipe out the whole village as a reprisal. In the hills, they organize a guerilla army, led primarily by the oldest of the sons named Judah, nicknamed Maccabee, which means "the Hammer." Maccabee is also an acronym for mi komocho ba'alim Hashem, "who is like you among the powers O God," -- the battle cry of the Jewish people.
We don't know exactly how large this Maccabee army was, but even the most optimistic estimates put the number at no more than 12,000 men. This tiny force takes on the fighting Greek army of up to 40,000 men.
It's not just a numerical superiority the Greeks have. The Greeks are professional soldiers -- they have equipment, they have training, and they have a herd of war elephants, which were the tanks of the ancient world. The Jews are vastly outnumbered, poorly trained, and poorly equipped (not to mention, they have no elephants), but what they lack in training and equipment they make up in spirit.
Most of the battles take place in the foothills leading from the coastal plain area (Tel Aviv) to Jerusalem. The Greeks are trying to march their armies up the natural canyons that lead into the mountain areas, the stronghold of the Jewish army. There's only a few places where the Greeks can ascend and this is where the Maccabees choose to take them on.
Now when we read the story of the Maccabees it seems like it's something that takes place over a few weeks -- the battles take place, the Jews win, and the Greeks go home. But, in fact, it takes 25 years of fighting and a great many casualties on both sides until the Selucid Greeks finally reach a peace agreement with the Jews.
CHANUKAH
After the first three years, the Jews are able re-conquer Jerusalem. They find the Temple defiled and turned into a pagan sanctuary, where pigs are sacrificed on the altar. When they re-enter the Temple, the first thing they do is try to light a make-shift menorah (as the real gold one had been melted down by the Greeks) but only one vial of pure lamp oil with the special seal is discovered. They use this vial to light the menorah and miraculously it stays lit for eight days, by which time fresh pure oil has been pressed and delivered to the Temple.
The Maccabees then purify the Temple and rededicate it on the 25th of Kislev, which is the date on the Hebrew calendar when we begin to celebrate the eight days of Chanukah. (The Hebrew word Chanukah means "dedication" or "inauguration.")
Early in the morning of the 25th day of the ninth month which is the month of Kislev...they [the priests] rose and offered sacrifices, as the law directs, on the new alter of burnt offerings which they had built...it was dedicated with songs and harps and lutes and cymbals...So they celebrated the dedication of the alter for eight days...(I Maccabees 4:52-56)
The miracle of the oil lasting for eight days (which is not mentioned in the Book of the Maccabees) is described in the Talmud:
...and when the royal Hasmonean House gained the upper hand and vanquished them [the Greeks], [the Hasmoneans] searched and found only one flask of oil...with the Kohen Gadol's [High Priest] seal, and it contained only [enough oil] to burn for one day. A miracle occurred and it burned for eight days. (Talmud, Shabbat 21b)
Chanukah -- one of two holidays added to the Jewish calendar by the rabbis -- celebrates two kinds of miracles: 1) the military victory of the vastly outnumbered Jews against the Greeks; and 2) the spiritual victory of Jewish values over those of the Greek. It is this spiritual victory which is symbolized by the lights of Chanukah.
If we look at these two miracles, clearly the military victory was greater yet it is the miracle of the oil that is commemorated during the festival of Hanukah. The military victory may have been more impressive, but as we already mentioned, the real battle was spiritual and not physical. It is precisely this spiritual victory that is symbolized by the light of the menorah. (Fire, the soul and spirituality are all connected in Jewish thought). The light of Chanukah is symbolic of the inner spiritual strength of the Jewish people that despite all odds is never extinguished. It is precisely this inner spiritual strength that has enabled the Jewish people to outlast the greatest empires in history and have monumental impact on humanity.
The rededication of the Temple does not end the fight however. A Greek garrison remained stationed in Jerusalem in the Acra fortress and the Greek armies besiege Jerusalem and attempt to re-conquer the City. Many more battles will be fought before the conflict finally ends
It's not until 142 BCE, during the reign of Seleucid monarch Demitrius, that the Greeks finally have enough of the fighting and sign a peace treaty with Simon, the last survivor of the five sons of Mattathias. (In 162 BCE-Eleazar falls in battle: thrusting a spear into the belly of war elephant on which he thought the king was riding, the elephant falls on him crushing him death. Yehuda is killed at the battle of Elasa in 161 BCE and Jonathan falls in battle in 142 BCE.)

In [that] year, Israel was released from the gentile yoke; the people began to write on their contracts and agreements: "In the first year of Simon, the great High Priest, general and leader of the Jews." (1 Maccabees 13:41-42)Thus Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel is officially restored. "

We have been here before, and been down this path before. The questions is 'what have we learned from history and what we should do now?'

[Kris10leigh]

Of course Messianics would love Jews to all be Messianic, and would love to
have Israel filled with them.
I mean, let's get real here. Is this any big surprise to anyone???
Actually, it is a big surprise to me. Perhaps I am down right naive, but I actually adore each and every individual on this planet for their own unique perspective and would not want to live in a world of all Messianics (Jews or Gentiles).

The world needs Jews and their love for education, dedication to scripture and for their Challah! :P

The world needs Christians for their compassion and potluck dinners. (It's harder to see stereotypes in a group you grew up in :sorry:)

I truly think this group is just airing out its differences right now and that soon :prayer: it will settle down.

Please remember that none of has a cross or star of David on our foreheads (naturally anyway) and that we are all humans first. And I pray that we all remember that though horrific things are happing by groups of people in the real world, here we are not those groups of people. We are all individuals, none of whom would take part in those things.

[ChazakEmunah]

Kivi says: A little history lesson, Maestro:

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History__Part_29_-_The_Revolt_of_the_Maccabees.asp

"
http://articles.aish.com/graphics/articles/part29_maccabees_230x150.jpg by Rabbi Ken Spiro
"The Jewish revolt against the Greeks sets a precedent in human history - it becomes the world's first religious war.
Email this (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:showEtfForm%28%27top%27,%27jewishhistory%27%29)Print this (http://www.aish.com/SSI/articleToPrint.asp?an=2338&PageURL=/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History__Part_29_-_The_Revolt_of_the_Maccabees.xml&torahportion=&teaser=The+Jewish+revolt+against+the+Greeks+sets+a+precedent+in+human+history+%2D+it+becomes+the+world%26%2339%3Bs+first+religious+war%2E)

We know the details of the Jewish fight against the Greeks and Hellenism from the two Books of the Maccabees as well as the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus.
These chronicles are not included in the Hebrew Bible because the Men of the Great Assembly had decided many years earlier what the Hebrew Bible should consist of and these events occurred much later in time. The Books of the Maccabees were both written in the first century BCE. I Maccabees was originally written in Hebrew as an official court history for the Hasmonean Dynasty. II Maccabees was originally written in Greek and based on earlier work written by Jason of Cyrene.
This revolt of the Jews sets a precedent in human history. It is the world's first ideological/religious war. No one in the ancient world died for their gods; only the Jews thought that their religion -- the only monotheistic religion at the time -- was worth dying for.
But it is not just a war against the Greeks, it is also a civil war -- Jews, who were loyal to Judaism, fighting other Jews, who had become Hellenized and who were siding with the Greeks.
The year is 167 BCE and the horrible persecution of Judaism by the Greeks is in full swing. The Greek troops show up in the town of Modi'in (a site west of Jerusalem which you can visit today off the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv highway) and demand that the Jews there sacrifice a pig to the Greek gods. The elder of the town, Mattathias, who is a cohen, that is of the priestly class, refuses. Even if all the nations that live under the rule of the king obey him, and have chosen to do his commandments, departing each one from the religion of his fathers, yet I and my sons and my brothers will live by the covenant of our fathers...We will not obey the king's word by turning aside from our religion to the right hand or to the left. (I Maccabees 2:19-22)
But there is a Hellenized Jew in the town who is willing to do what is unspeakable in Jewish eyes. As he's about to sacrifice the pig, Mattathias stabs him, also killing the Greek official present. He then turns to the crowd and announces: "Follow me, all of you who are for God's law and stand by the covenant." (1 Maccabees 2:27)
Those who join Mattathias and his five sons -- named Yohanan, Shimon, Judah, Eleazar, Yonaton -- head for the hills, expecting that the Greeks are going to come back and wipe out the whole village as a reprisal. In the hills, they organize a guerilla army, led primarily by the oldest of the sons named Judah, nicknamed Maccabee, which means "the Hammer." Maccabee is also an acronym for mi komocho ba'alim Hashem, "who is like you among the powers O God," -- the battle cry of the Jewish people.
We don't know exactly how large this Maccabee army was, but even the most optimistic estimates put the number at no more than 12,000 men. This tiny force takes on the fighting Greek army of up to 40,000 men.
It's not just a numerical superiority the Greeks have. The Greeks are professional soldiers -- they have equipment, they have training, and they have a herd of war elephants, which were the tanks of the ancient world. The Jews are vastly outnumbered, poorly trained, and poorly equipped (not to mention, they have no elephants), but what they lack in training and equipment they make up in spirit.
Most of the battles take place in the foothills leading from the coastal plain area (Tel Aviv) to Jerusalem. The Greeks are trying to march their armies up the natural canyons that lead into the mountain areas, the stronghold of the Jewish army. There's only a few places where the Greeks can ascend and this is where the Maccabees choose to take them on.
Now when we read the story of the Maccabees it seems like it's something that takes place over a few weeks -- the battles take place, the Jews win, and the Greeks go home. But, in fact, it takes 25 years of fighting and a great many casualties on both sides until the Selucid Greeks finally reach a peace agreement with the Jews.
CHANUKAH
After the first three years, the Jews are able re-conquer Jerusalem. They find the Temple defiled and turned into a pagan sanctuary, where pigs are sacrificed on the altar. When they re-enter the Temple, the first thing they do is try to light a make-shift menorah (as the real gold one had been melted down by the Greeks) but only one vial of pure lamp oil with the special seal is discovered. They use this vial to light the menorah and miraculously it stays lit for eight days, by which time fresh pure oil has been pressed and delivered to the Temple.
The Maccabees then purify the Temple and rededicate it on the 25th of Kislev, which is the date on the Hebrew calendar when we begin to celebrate the eight days of Chanukah. (The Hebrew word Chanukah means "dedication" or "inauguration.")
Early in the morning of the 25th day of the ninth month which is the month of Kislev...they [the priests] rose and offered sacrifices, as the law directs, on the new alter of burnt offerings which they had built...it was dedicated with songs and harps and lutes and cymbals...So they celebrated the dedication of the alter for eight days...(I Maccabees 4:52-56)
The miracle of the oil lasting for eight days (which is not mentioned in the Book of the Maccabees) is described in the Talmud:
...and when the royal Hasmonean House gained the upper hand and vanquished them [the Greeks], [the Hasmoneans] searched and found only one flask of oil...with the Kohen Gadol's [High Priest] seal, and it contained only [enough oil] to burn for one day. A miracle occurred and it burned for eight days. (Talmud, Shabbat 21b)
Chanukah -- one of two holidays added to the Jewish calendar by the rabbis -- celebrates two kinds of miracles: 1) the military victory of the vastly outnumbered Jews against the Greeks; and 2) the spiritual victory of Jewish values over those of the Greek. It is this spiritual victory which is symbolized by the lights of Chanukah.
If we look at these two miracles, clearly the military victory was greater yet it is the miracle of the oil that is commemorated during the festival of Hanukah. The military victory may have been more impressive, but as we already mentioned, the real battle was spiritual and not physical. It is precisely this spiritual victory that is symbolized by the light of the menorah. (Fire, the soul and spirituality are all connected in Jewish thought). The light of Chanukah is symbolic of the inner spiritual strength of the Jewish people that despite all odds is never extinguished. It is precisely this inner spiritual strength that has enabled the Jewish people to outlast the greatest empires in history and have monumental impact on humanity.
The rededication of the Temple does not end the fight however. A Greek garrison remained stationed in Jerusalem in the Acra fortress and the Greek armies besiege Jerusalem and attempt to re-conquer the City. Many more battles will be fought before the conflict finally ends
It's not until 142 BCE, during the reign of Seleucid monarch Demitrius, that the Greeks finally have enough of the fighting and sign a peace treaty with Simon, the last survivor of the five sons of Mattathias. (In 162 BCE-Eleazar falls in battle: thrusting a spear into the belly of war elephant on which he thought the king was riding, the elephant falls on him crushing him death. Yehuda is killed at the battle of Elasa in 161 BCE and Jonathan falls in battle in 142 BCE.)
In [that] year, Israel was released from the gentile yoke; the people began to write on their contracts and agreements: "In the first year of Simon, the great High Priest, general and leader of the Jews." (1 Maccabees 13:41-42)Thus Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel is officially restored. "

We have been here before, and been down this path before. The questions is 'what have we learned from history and what we should do now?'


Obviously I haven't been posting over here much because I no longer have the desire to get dragged down by all the constant nonsense that goes on.

But, I saw this and just wanted to throw in my 2 cents... Just because I can... ;)

Chanukah really was a war against assimilation. Everyone should really think about that the next time they light their Chanukiah. It was a war for the very existence of Judaism. And yes, the common story that we always here was that the Maccabees fought the Greeks. Guess what? That term was used to refer to a Jew who had rejected Judaism and became a Hellenist. So who were they really fighting against? Hellenist Jews. Sure they fought against the Greek armies, but there were far more Hellenists than there were Greek soldiers.


So, back to my whole reason for commenting in this thread... I stated it in the other forum (way back when) and I'll say it again now. Under a Torah government (when the Mashiach comes), no person will be allowed to live in Israel unless they practice Judaism (this includes Ger Toshavim). So all the xtians and all those who practice anything other than Judaism will either have to renounce their previous faith or be forced to leave. That's just the way it will be. Unfortunately, we have a secular, anti-emunah government in power and they've allowed all sorts of despicable things. Not only that, but they war against HaShem by encouraging assimilation and outright fighting against Torah Jews. May Mashiach speedily come and put this anti-emunah regime to an end!

[Talmidah]

Under a Torah government (when the Mashiach comes), no person will be allowed to live in Israel unless they practice Judaism (this includes Ger Toshavim). So all the xtians and all those who practice anything other than Judaism will either have to renounce their previous faith or be forced to leave. That's just the way it will be. Unfortunately, we have a secular, anti-emunah government in power and they've allowed all sorts of despicable things. Not only that, but they war against HaShem by encouraging assimilation and outright fighting against Torah Jews. May Mashiach speedily come and put this anti-emunah regime to an end!


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Qalevra]

Yeah, you think you Yanks have it tough in your elections, eh?

Hmmmm...Labor, Likud, Kadima, Shas, Yisrael Beitenu, blah, blah, blah...

[ShirChadash]

Actually, it is a big surprise to me. Perhaps I am down right naive, but I actually adore each and every individual on this planet for their own unique perspective and would not want to live in a world of all Messianics (Jews or Gentiles).

The world needs Jews and their love for education, dedication to scripture and for their Challah! :P

The world needs Christians for their compassion and potluck dinners. (It's harder to see stereotypes in a group you grew up in :sorry:)

I truly think this group is just airing out its differences right now and that soon :prayer: it will settle down.

Please remember that none of has a cross or star of David on our foreheads (naturally anyway) and that we are all humans first. And I pray that we all remember that though horrific things are happing by groups of people in the real world, here we are not those groups of people. We are all individuals, none of whom would take part in those things.

So you do not feel that Jews must accept Jsus in order to be "saved" and "in right relationship" with HaShem -- "complete" and/or "whole? etc? I was going to ask a question on this very subject and it got so hateful here that frankly I didn't even want to open to the door to yet ANOTHER thread where we can look forward to being disdained, accused , suspected and eyeballed, and then have the messianics go running off saying we are ruining their happy place. AGAIN.

[Kris10leigh]

So you do not feel that Jews must accept Jsus in order to be "saved" and "in right relationship" with HaShem -- "complete" and/or "whole? etc?

No, I do not feel that Jews (or anyone) must accept Yeshua in order to be saved or in a "right relationship" with God. I don't believe that. I believe that God knows what is in our hearts and I believe that He has led each individual down his/her path. If you are a Jew and are practicing to the best of your own personal ability, I think He sees that and rewards accordingly. I think if an athiest believes in nothingness after death, then nothingness he will get. If a Christian believes in Heaven, then Heaven he will get. I'm not sure what Jews excpect in death, but I believe it is there for your reward.

[ShirChadash]

No, I do not feel that Jews (or anyone) must accept Yeshua in order to be saved or in a "right relationship" with God. I don't believe that. I believe that God knows what is in our hearts and I believe that He has led each individual down his/her path. If you are a Jew and are practicing to the best of your own personal ability, I think He sees that and rewards accordingly. I think if an athiest believes in nothingness after death, then nothingness he will get. If a Christian believes in Heaven, then Heaven he will get. I'm not sure what Jews excpect in death, but I believe it is there for your reward. very interesting! Thank you for your reply, Kristen. :hug:

[Qalevra]

No, I do not feel that Jews (or anyone) must accept Yeshua in order to be saved or in a "right relationship" with God. I don't believe that. I believe that God knows what is in our hearts and I believe that He has led each individual down his/her path. If you are a Jew and are practicing to the best of your own personal ability, I think He sees that and rewards accordingly. I think if an athiest believes in nothingness after death, then nothingness he will get. If a Christian believes in Heaven, then Heaven he will get. I'm not sure what Jews excpect in death, but I believe it is there for your reward.

Very interesting perspective indeed. I suppose I've never seen how you define yourself; are you an agnostic?

[Kris10leigh]

Very interesting perspective indeed. I suppose I've never seen how you define yourself; are you an agnostic?

^_^ What am I? Good question. I suppose I'm just Kristen.

Right now I'm getting my footing as a Messianic, but quickly finding that I don't fit that bill any better than I fit into the Methodist church I attend. I simply am who I am.

[Lulav]

Well, on this forum there aren't any Messianic Jews to bash
(excluding you and I don't see us bashing you). All I see is Messianic Gentiles.
One of which seems to delight in trashing Jews and Judaism.
So it is perfectly acceptable for us to go into defense mode.Perfectly acceptable to whom??? :scratch: :(


----------------------------------

I'm sorry but after what went down over the forum, I stayed away, until this 'meeting' started, and then I came over here to see what was going on to find that thread by Kristi ( not blaming you dear :hug:) such a cesspool of hatred I wondered where I have mistakingly taken a wrong turn. The lack of any love for another human being was so evident that it made me sick. I was reminded of history and how it got so bad so quickly and saw how it could before my very eyes.

I know none of you spoke against me personally because I wasn't there, but I don't just look out for myself, but care about all and what I saw was ugly and hate filled. And you know what it put into my head? Something I am sure the majority of you all would reject, but that shows the love and mercy of G-d, was this:

He who is without sin, cast the first stone.

I'm done here I think, I shall slink back to never never land......

Oh and GT, thanks for that reminder, that really is all that matters, and what I cling to daily, and have for years.

And his love endures forever..........

They will not come near you, even though a thousand may fall beside you or ten thousand at your right side.

[Lulav]

And you're right. For my part, I am done with it. My apologies to anyone I've hurt. It's pretty hard to see someone constantly throwing unfounded accusation after insult, and not stand up to say WHOA, kettle meet pot, and while we're at it, have you noticed you can't even verify that it was indeed the pot that was actually black? I can understadn replying to someone that doesn't get it but to umbrella all is clearly not right and it goes against Torah, even Moshe couldn't take the blame for what they did, the L-RD said each guilty will pay.

Of course Jews do not want Messianic Jews to exist and we don't want them
in HaShem's land.
Of course Messianics would love Jews to all be Messianic, and would love to
have Israel filled with them.
I mean, let's get real here. Is this any big surprise to anyone???Thank you for being honest, I didn't think the hatred ran this deep, but I see it does. You don't want me to exist, this is no different than anyone else that's come along and said this about any Jew, including Hezbollah, Hamas, Hitler, Haman, Hell.

You can speak for yourself and the Judaism community on that but you think you can speak for all Messianics and say that they want all Jews to be Messianic? Well I will tell you you can't speak for all, especially this one, because that is not my philosophy, in fact I don't' believe that , never have, never will. But I am grateful that me living in the land is not up to you, but up to HaShem, HIS will be done, not yours.

I just can't imagine this is some huge shock and certainly no shock to the normative Jews here that Chr*tians want all Jews to believe in jsus and all. Label me anyway you want, it doesn't change what I believe or who I worship. :sigh:

Tell me, those of you converts who still have family that are 'Christians' do you harbor the same distain ie, hatred towards them as well?

[simchat_torah]

this is no different than anyone else that's come along and said this about any Jew, including Hezbollah, Hamas, Hitler, Haman, Hell.It seems like every messianic I meet dreams they are Jewish and they want to associate the antisemetism onto themselves somehow

[Talmidah]

Thank you for being honest, I didn't think the hatred ran this deep, but I see it does. You don't want me to exist, this is no different than anyone else that's come along and said this about any Jew, including Hezbollah, Hamas, Hitler, Haman, Hell.


Oh puh-leeze Lulav. You know she wasn't wishing death and destruction on anyone. She is hoping that all true Jews make teshuvah, repent of their sins of avodah zarah and return to Hashem. Then there will be no Messianic Jews. Man, such a martyr complex around here! :doh:

You can speak for yourself and the Judaism community on that but you think you can speak for all Messianics and say that they want all Jews to be Messianic? Well I will tell you you can't speak for all, especially this one, because that is not my philosophy, in fact I don't' believe that , never have, never will. But I am grateful that me living in the land is not up to you, but up to HaShem, HIS will be done, not yours.
Actually, for the time being, it is only because of the seculark, corrupt, anti-emuna government of Israel that this abomination is allowed to go on.




Tell me, those of you converts who still have family that are 'Christians' do you harbor the same distain ie, hatred towards them as well?
Oh yeah right. Hatred. Please. Whatever.

[ChavaK]

No, I do not feel that Jews (or anyone) must accept Yeshua in order to be saved or in a "right relationship" with God.

:thumbsup:

[Lulav]

It seems like every messianic I meet dreams they are Jewish and they want to associate the antisemetism onto themselves somehow


well that's one thing I did understand from you all that you don't accept that I am Jewish because of my beliefs, but it really doesn't matter in the end what any one person thinks, does it? It only matters what HaShem thinks.

[ShirChadash]

I can understadn replying to someone that doesn't get it but to umbrella all is clearly not right and it goes against Torah, even Moshe couldn't take the blame for what they did, the L-RD said each guilty will pay. where did I do this, Lulav? If you're going to claim it, and there is more to it than simply your perception, then I am going to ask you to show me where you feel I did so.

Thank you for being honest, I didn't think the hatred ran this deep, but I see it does. You don't want me to exist, this is no different than anyone else that's come along and said this about any Jew, including Hezbollah, Hamas, Hitler, Haman, Hell. and it's exactly what Chr*tians and messianics tell every Jew they proselytize. "YOu're not okay being who you are. Look, you're not supposed to BE this..."

You can speak for yourself and the Judaism community on that but you think you can speak for all Messianics and say that they want all Jews to be Messianic? Well I will tell you you can't speak for all, especially this one, because that is not my philosophy, in fact I don't' believe that , never have, never will. But I am grateful that me living in the land is not up to you, but up to HaShem, HIS will be done, not yours.

Label me anyway you want, it doesn't change what I believe or who I worship. :sigh: -- are we reading the same thread? Where did I label YOU? :o I'm pointing out the fact that NOT ONE normative Jew has ANY doubt in his/her mind that Chr*tians and Messianics want them to believe in Jsus, do not think non-Chr*tian Jews are "okay" without him, etc. Not one Jew here has ANY doubt about it. It's standard Chr*tianity.

Tell me, those of you converts who still have family that are 'Christians' do you harbor the same distain ie, hatred towards them as well?I'm sorry you think that taking a firm stand against missionizing on Israeli soil and against Chr*tianity as an acceptable religion for JEWS automatically = hatred of individuals. Such an over-statement of the truth. Not only is my birth family mainly all Ch*tian but all of my very best long-time, IRL friends, whom I entertain in my home, whose children play with my children, who love me and I love them.

[simchat_torah]

well that's one thing I did understand from you all that you don't accept that I am Jewish because of my beliefsIt actually has nothing to do with your beliefs. Of all the hundreds of messianics that I've met who claim to be "Jewish" via bloodlines... only two have ever panned out to be true.

[ShirChadash]

boy you sure like to put your own little twist on everything you read, don't you Lulav?well that's one thing I did understand from you all that you don't accept that I am Jewish because of my beliefs, but it really doesn't matter in the end what any one person thinks, does it? It only matters what HaShem thinks.

[simchat_torah]

And its not really aimed at you Lulav, but at Messianics in general....

[Lulav]

Oh puh-leeze Lulav. You know she wasn't wishing death and destruction on anyone. She is hoping that all true Jews make teshuvah, repent of their sins of avodah zarah and return to Hashem. Then there will be no Messianic Jews. Man, such a martyr complex around here! :doh:


Actually, for the time being, it is only because of the seculark, corrupt, anti-emuna government of Israel that this abomination is allowed to go on.



Oh yeah right. Hatred. Please. Whatever. No? How else can one take this?

Of course Jews do not want Messianic Jews to exist and we don't want them in HaShem's land.
Of course Messianics would love Jews to all be Messianic, and would love to
have Israel filled with them.
I mean, let's get real here. Is this any big surprise to anyone???
How would you take it when someone says,

Of course we don't want Jews to exist or want them in our land?

Not personally? Tell me how? It is one thing to want someone 'back in the family' , It is quite another to say you don't want them to 'exist'.

Also I might say, I have been very taken aback by your posts Talmidah, I never saw this side of you before, but I am always for the revelation of truth.

[Lulav]

.

[ChavaK]

well that's one thing I did understand from you all that you don't accept that I am Jewish because of my beliefs, but it really doesn't matter in the end what any one person thinks, does it? It only matters what HaShem thinks.

We all agree that if your mother was a Jew, so are you.

We are saying if a person accepts the tenents of a different
faith, they are still a Jew but they are not a believer in Judiasm
and are outside the Jewish community and faith.

A Jew is a Jew forever, regardless what they do or do not believe.
Whether or not they are Jewish, as in being a part of Judaism,
is a separate matter.

[simchat_torah]

And there it is.

I was wondering which one of you would have the lowest ethics to post this publically. Now I see. Thank you XXXX. You have truly shown your colors, and how far you have fallen. I guess though the harm to a Messianic wouldn't bother you in the least because I am a fallen Jew, huh? And you don't want us to exist.
I don't get it?

[Lulav]

And its not really aimed at you Lulav, but at Messianics in general....ok, thank you.

[ShirChadash]

And there it is.

I was wondering which one of you would have the lowest ethics to post this publically. Now I see.
good lord woman, I caught it so quick and changed it to right so fast you couldn't even quote me seconds later. Take your paranoia away, seriously. And would that YOU were so careful, you twit.

[ShirChadash]

I don't get it?
Please, edit your quote S_T

[Qalevra]

Martyr complex. It really does ring hollow when you consider that as Jews who "killed Jesus", we have real threats against our lives, and for those of us who are Israelis, are citizens of a land surrounded by enemies, who follow charters based on the premise of the destruction of the "Jewish state".

Frankly, this isn't a productive conversation. Lulav, if you're a Jew, you're a Jew. That doesn't mean that everyone else who claims to be is as well.

[Talmidah]

boy you sure like to put your own little twist on everything you read, don't you Lulav?
And there it is.

I was wondering which one of you would have the lowest ethics to post this publically. Now I see. Thank you. You have truly shown your colors, and how far you have fallen. I guess though the harm to a Messianic wouldn't bother you in the least because I am a fallen Jew, huh? And you don't want us to exist.

Alright I admit...I am so incredibly lost with this post. :confused:

[ShirChadash]

Lulav, I reported your post to get my name out of there. I posted accidentally and did NOT intend to breach name, and corrected my post just as soon as I refreshed and re-read it. You could have the same courtesy no MATTER how you dislike me or my posts!

[ChavaK]

because I am a fallen Jew, huh? And you don't want us to exist.

It is a little more complex than that.
Each Jew is responsible for his fellow Jew.

It is our responsibility to try to help
Jews do teshuva and return to Torah,
to HaShem, and to their people.

Anything less than that, and we are
failing to serve HaShem.

It is not a matter of picking on you or Messianics in
general and saying we don't want you to exist.
It's saying we care about our fellow Jews and will
always reach out to help them.

[simchat_torah]

Lulav, I reported your post to get my name out of there. I posted accidentally and did NOT intend to breach name, and corrected my post just as soon as I refreshed and re-read it. You could have the same courtesy no MATTER how you dislike me or my posts!so... because you accidently used her other sock's name, she used your real life name?

Isn't that a breach of the rules... to post personal info about others on these forums?

I pretty sure that's an RV.

[ChavaK]

so... because you accidently used her other sock's name, she used your real life name?




What, she accidently used the Z name?
what is the big deal about that?????

[ShirChadash]

AND! You didn't even quote ME

LULAV

You quoted others twice now and attributed their comments to ME.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Originally Posted by Lulav
because I am a fallen Jew, huh? And you don't want us to exist.
It is a little more complex than that.
Each Jew is responsible for his fellow Jew.

It is our responsibility to try to help
Jews do teshuva and return to Torah,
to HaShem, and to their people.

Anything less than that, and we are
failing to serve HaShem.

It is not a matter of picking on you or Messianics in
general and saying we don't want you to exist.
It's saying we care about our fellow Jews and will
always reach out to help them. Orthodox Jews (Hebrews) told me that they do not witness. There goes another myth up in smoke.

[Qalevra]

Orthodox Jews (Hebrews) told me that they do not witness. There goes another myth up in smoke.

Because you misunderstood probably. Jews don't proselytise, but we will try to bring non-practicing Jews back.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Because you misunderstood probably. Jews don't proselytise, but we will try to bring non-practicing Jews back. Translation: Jews don't proselytise to Non-Jews, but we will try to bring non-practicing Jews back within our fold.

[ChavaK]

Orthodox Jews (Hebrews) told me that they do not witness. There goes another myth up in smoke.

Only to other Jews, which if you would re-read my post,
you will understand.

We have no desire to "witness" to gentiles.

[Qalevra]

Translation: Jews don't proselytise to Non-Jews, but we will try to bring non-practicing Jews back within our fold.

:thumbsup:

[ChavaK]

Translation: Jews don't proselytise to Non-Jews, but we will try to bring non-practicing Jews back within our fold.

yeppers....

[Talmidah]

Translation: Jews don't proselytise to Non-Jews, but we will try to bring non-practicing Jews back within our fold.

By George, I think he's got it! :clap:

[HalcyonFire]

my question is, how do you 100% know whether or not someone's Jewish? I mean, the US is such a mish mash of mixed up cultures/nationalities it's hard to tell what someone is at all.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

yeppers.... Where have all the Messianics gone, off to Orthodox conversion everyone. When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn.

Isaiah 28:11-16
11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,

12 to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"—
but they would not listen.

13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there—
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.

14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers
who rule this people in Jerusalem.

15 You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death,
with the grave [b] we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have made a lie our refuge
and falsehood [c] our hiding place."

16 So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

[ChavaK]

Thank you for being honest, I didn't think the hatred ran this deep, but I see it does. You don't want me to exist, this is no different than anyone else that's come along and said this about any Jew, including Hezbollah, Hamas, Hitler, Haman, Hell.

It is not hatred, it is disappointment.
Disappointment that some Jews have chosen to follow foreign gods
and forsake Torah. Something Jews have done since matan torah.

And shame that we Jews have not prevented this from happening.
That we bring out children up in secular homes, with no knowledge
of G-d or His torah.

We want all Jews to exist.....we just do not want them involved
in avodah zara....but to exists as Jews who follow HaShem and
His Torah.

Hezbollah and Hitler are for the physical destruction of Jews.
We are against the spiritual destruction of Jews.


You can speak for yourself and the Judaism community on that but you think you can speak for all Messianics and say that they want all Jews to be Messianic?
I think it would fair to say that, oh....99.999% of Messianics
think Jews should be Messianic.
If they don't believe that, then they are not living their faith.

But I am grateful that me living in the land is not up to you, but up to HaShem, HIS will be done, not yours.
Of course, all is in the hands of HaShem.......and the secular Israeli
courts, LOL.

[ChavaK]

Where have all the Messianics gone, off to Orthodox conversion everyone.


Well, maybe you should ask yourself why.
We certainly don't encourage it.

[Kris10leigh]

I think it would fair to say that, oh....99.999% of Messianics
think Jews should be Messianic.
If they don't believe that, then they are not living their faith.


I guess I am that .00001% then (or whatever. ^_^ I never claimed to be good at math)
And proud of it too! :thumbsup: And I do believe I AM living my faith. ;)

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Of course, all is in the hands of HaShem.......and the secular Israeli
courts, LOL. Translation: Let the Orthodox in, and keep the Messianics out.

[simchat_torah]

my question is, how do you 100% know whether or not someone's Jewish? I mean, the US is such a mish mash of mixed up cultures/nationalities it's hard to tell what someone is at all.To be "Jewish" there is only one question:
Is your momma Jewish?

No one asks if your great great great aunt's dog's vetrinarian's cousin's step-brother's best friend's hair stylist is Jewish. They only want to know if your mother is Jewish.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Well, maybe you should ask yourself why.
We certainly don't encourage it.

Translation: Not officially acknowledged.

[Talmidah]

Translation: Let the Orthodox in, and keep the Messianics out.


:thumbsup: Michael's on a roll today!

[ChazakEmunah]

Translation: Let the Orthodox in, and keep the Messianics out.
That's the idea. Besides, a true Messianic Jew is one who believes the Mashiach hasn't come yet. :)

[ChavaK]

Translation: Not officially acknowledged.

You mind translated your translation?
It's not exactly clear....;)

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

You mind translated your translation?
It's not exactly clear....;) Well, maybe you should ask yourself why.
We certainly don't encourage it. Translation: Not officially acknowledged.

[ChavaK]

I guess I am that .00001% then (or whatever. ^_^ I never claimed to be good at math)
And proud of it too! :thumbsup: And I do believe I AM living my faith. ;)

Then you are most unusual, and thank G-d for that! :D
Christians and Messies I meet almost to a man (or woman,
I should not be sexist) believe that one has to accept
Yeshu as messiah and be saved in order to be acceptable
to G-d.

If they believe that, and they don't believe Jews need to
be "saved", then they are not living their faith.

I am happy to hear you are an exception!!!

[ChavaK]

Translation: Let the Orthodox in, and keep the Messianics out.

wrong translation.
correct translation:

Let non-messianic Jews in, keep non-messianic jews out.

[Talmidah]

wrong translation.
correct translation:

Let non-messianic Jews in, keep non-messianic jews out.



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[Qalevra]

My eyes hurt. :eek:

[simchat_torah]

I feel some subconscious desire to get up and dance.

[Hentenza]

Mod Hat On


Closing per OP request.