False Testimony on Todd Bentley’s Website

[Simon Peter]

If your pastor preached a controversial sermon, that some claimed was heresy, you’d expect it to cause some heated discussion within the church. The reference point in these discussions would revolve around the transcript of the sermon.

But what if someone then went into the church website and doctored the transcript, removing his most controversial remarks? Well this is what just happened on Todd Bentley’s website.

Fresh Fire Ministries have removed all references to “Emma” and to this 'angel' being female. Astoundingly, they have also changed what the Lord supposedly said; they’ve actually changed quotations and left the words in quotation marks!!!

Example

Original version:

The Lord answered: "She is releasing the gold, which is both the revelation and the financial breakthrough that I am bringing into this church. I want you to prophecy that Emma showed up in this service the same angel that appeared in Kansas city as a sign that I am endorsing and releasing a prophetic spirit in the church."

New doctored version:

The Lord answered: “This angel is releasing the gold, which is both the revelation and the financial breakthrough that I am bringing into this church. I want you to prophecy that the angel’s appearance is a sign that I am endorsing and releasing a prophetic spirit in the church.”

[BenAdam]

subscribbing!

[Deba]

Perhaps the changes were made because of the AG article that someone posted on here.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Who or what bes "Emma", some dead relative of his? If so then we know where that comes from.

[Yekcidmij]

Who or what bes "Emma", some dead relative of his? If so then we know where that comes from.

A rough equivalent of a conglomeration of Apollo, Morpheus, Carmenta, Plutus, Abundantia, Fortuna, and Porrima. Basically a member of a pantheon.

[Simon Peter]

I forgot to post sources.

Two independent un-doctored sources:

http://www.upstreamca.org/angelichosts.html (http://www.upstreamca.org/angelichosts.html)

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html (http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html)

Todd Bentley’s website with its recently doctored version:

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40&pid=954 (http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40&pid=954)


Deba,

Can you provide a link to this article you are talking about? I must have missed it.

Thanks

[Jimbeaux]

Why do all these highly huckstered events have to be the last great move of God? IMO, they are usually nothing more than the focus of a well-oiled PR machine that sometimes gets caught in its own exaggerations. As long as there are willing (gullible) buyers, we will have these slick promotions and have to account for their occasional embellishments. When these sort of things happen it does make you wonder what else we are being told that is just not true and if we are just being scammed (again).

~Jim
It is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves too much, that is poor.

[arielette]

Emma? He has a name for the entity that is showing up in his meetings? References to her are being taken out of documents online? Very, very interesting --

Subscribing

[Deba]

I forgot to post sources.

Two independent un-doctored sources:

http://www.upstreamca.org/angelichosts.html (http://www.upstreamca.org/angelichosts.html)

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html (http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html)

Todd Bentley’s website with its recently doctored version:

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40&pid=954 (http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40&pid=954)


Deba,

Can you provide a link to this article you are talking about? I must have missed it.

Thanks



http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7251815

[Simon Peter]

Why do all these highly huckstered events have to be the last great move of God? IMO, they are usually nothing more than the focus of a well-oiled PR machine that sometimes gets caught in its own exaggerations. As long as there are willing (gullible) buyers, we will have these slick promotions and have to account for their occasional embellishments. When these sort of things happen it does make you wonder what else we are being told that is just not true and if we are just being scammed (again).

~Jim

It is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves too much, that is poor.




You are absolutely right Jim. Why should I trust anything on Todd Bentley's website?

This reminds me of the Kansas City Prophets (now known as International House of Prayer or IHOP) who actually employed people to "edit" doctor transcripts and tapes so that America wouldn't find out what they really believe.

Todd Bentley is 'in bed' with IHOP, and I guess this practice is still acceptable....

[DianeL]

I've been asking myself a few questions since this female angel was mentioned.

If angels are genderless, why do some of the angels who are mentioned/appeared in God's Word 'look' like men? Given men's names,

I mean, why like men (look like us - sort of)

It has me wondering if angels can 'look' like women ? or anything?

Have you guys ever asked that too?

It's really has me thinking.

[BenAdam]

I've been asking myself a few questions since this female angel was mentioned.

If angels are genderless, why do some of the angels who are mentioned/appeared in God's Word 'look' like men? Given men's names,

I mean, why like men (look like us - sort of)

It has me wondering if angels can 'look' like women ? or anything?

Have you guys ever asked that too?

It's really has me thinking.

Where are Angels given men's names? The only 2 angels named in the Bible are Michael and Gabriel. They are names that refer to God (the El part) and are essentially genderless.

[youthwalk]

Ididn't want to get involved in this Todd Bently debate but I find it hard to understand how some DON'T get the wrong vibe from his teachings. Not that "vibe" means anything. WhatI mean by "vibe" is that churning in your spirit that says; "no, somethings off."

I'm not making any judgements about the man as I have never met him, but I can say what the Holy Spirit tells me, and I don't believe that all of the speculations about him are without merit.

[Jimbeaux]

You are absolutely right Jim. Why should I trust anything on Todd Bentley's website?

This reminds me of the Kansas City Prophets (now known as International House of Prayer or IHOP) who actually employed people to "edit" doctor transcripts and tapes so that America wouldn't find out what they really believe.

Todd Bentley is 'in bed' with IHOP, and I guess this practice is still acceptable....

Doctored prophecies? :eek:

No wonder their prophecies are so accurate. ;)


Actually, my denomination was briefly associated with the Kansas City thing until abuses (possibly like this) caused them to withdraw support and affiliation in mid-90s (much to my relief). I am glad the Vineyard made that wise decision or I would never have been a part of them.

~Jim
It is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves too much, that is poor.

[BenAdam]

Doctored prophecies? :eek:

No wonder their prophecies are so accurate. ;)


Actually, my denomination was briefly associated with the Kansas City thing until abuses (possibly like this) caused them to withdraw support and affiliation in mid-90s (much to my relief). I am glad the Vineyard made that wise decision or I would never have been a part of them.

~Jim

It is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves too much, that is poor.




Sadly a local vineyard here is getting in the proverbial bed with IHOP.

[Mathetes the kerux]

Watching . . .

[DianeL]

Where are Angels given men's names? The only 2 angels named in the Bible are Michael and Gabriel. They are names that refer to God (the El part) and are essentially genderless.

Hi BenAdam;

Those are the names I was referring to.

Maybe it's us giving men these names, as my friend who is named Michael (is a man).

I've still got to sort this out

Thank you for responding:)

[BenAdam]

Hi BenAdam;

Those are the names I was referring to.

Maybe it's us giving men these names, as my friend who is named Michael (is a man).

I've still got to sort this out

Thank you for responding:)

Well because they have been used as male names doesn't mean they are males. Even if the appearance of angels would be either male or female doesn't change the fact that they are implied to be neither. As Jesus stated that in the ressurection we will not be married but be as like the Angels in heaven.

[DianeL]

Well because they have been used as male names doesn't mean they are males. Even if the appearance of angels would be either male or female doesn't change the fact that they are implied to be neither. As Jesus stated that in the ressurection we will not be married but be as like the Angels in heaven.

I agree, then Emma is neither male or female (as we understand it) regardless of appearance?

Please note, I'm not arguing here, just working it out.

[probinson]

On the article on Todd Bentley's website, there is a diamond that looks like this after the statement; �

Does anyone know what that means?

[BenAdam]

I agree, then Emma is neither male or female (as we understand it) regardless of appearance?

Please note, I'm not arguing here, just working it out.

Well if Emma identified itself as a female I would worry. Also Emma does NOT follow the scriptural model for angel names (ie having El in the name, please note, this is what I feel scripture reveals, doesn't mean it is hard and fast doctrine).

[Tamara224]

On the article on Todd Bentley's website, there is a diamond that looks like this after the statement; �

Does anyone know what that means?


I don't see diamonds or squares after anything. I see some misplaced question marks...

[Simon Peter]

On the article on Todd Bentley's website, there is a diamond that looks like this after the statement; �

Does anyone know what that means?

Hi Pete,

I think these boxes are just some sort of code error from when you move text from hmtl to notepad or visa versa. In this case the boxes look like 'Returns' appearing where there are spaces.

What do you make of this apparent deception by his ministry?

[DianeL]

Well if Emma identified itself as a female I would worry. Also Emma does NOT follow the scriptural model for angel names (ie having El in the name, please note, this is what I feel scripture reveals, doesn't mean it is hard and fast doctrine).

I hear you, BenAdam,

I'm going to research this as I agree if Emma identified itself as a female from the beginning of it's appearance, this would be strange.

But if it didn't and because it looked like a female they said she?

I'm curious because others have said they were visited by angels, some called themselves 'Dominion', some 'Healing/Revival', etc. none have "El" in their name.

Thank you again, for your responses. :)

[BenAdam]

I hear you, BenAdam,

I'm going to research this as I agree if Emma identified itself as a female from the beginning of it's appearance, this would be strange.

But if it didn't and because it looked like a female they said she?

I'm curious because others have said they were visited by angels, some called themselves 'Dominion', some 'Healing/Revival', etc. none have "El" in their name.

Thank you again, for your responses. :)

:) Anytime

One last thing, if an Angel were to reveal itself in a name such as you stated, I would be heavily cautious until I heard what it had to say.

[Simon Peter]

Well if Emma identified itself as a female I would worry. Also Emma does NOT follow the scriptural model for angel names (ie having El in the name, please note, this is what I feel scripture reveals, doesn't mean it is hard and fast doctrine).

Many have voiced concerns that Todd Bentley has consistantly identified ' the angel Emma' as female.

In Todd's own words:

"That was the first angel that I have ever seen in the form of a woman. Some angels I've seen seemed like they were neither male nor female. However, Emma appeared as a woman who was like a Deborah, like a mother in Zion. When she came, she began to..."

[Tamara224]

I looked up the meaning of the name "Emma." Most sources said its origin is from Germanic "ermen" meaning "whole" or "universal". (One source said it was Latin in origin, meaning "universal").

That's very interesting.

[Jimbeaux]

You know, the more I read and hear about TB, the scarier the Lakeland thing becomes. Could it be we have disobeyed 1 Timothy 5.22 by laying hands too suddenly on this whole TB/Lakeland thing.
Do not be in a hurry in the laying on of hands [giving the sanction of the church too hastily in reinstating expelled offenders or in ordination in questionable cases], nor share or participate in another man's sins; keep yourself pure. (1 Tim. 5.22, AMP)
~Jim

It is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves too much, that is poor.

[Simon Peter]

Here is the whole Emma section of Todd's teaching in its original form and doctored state.

EMMA, ANGEL OF THE PROPHETIC (The original and true version, red parts have been removed on Todd's website)

Now let me talk about an angelic experience with Emma. Twice Bob Jones asked me about this angel that was in Kansas City in 1980: "Todd, have you ever seen the angel by the name of Emma?" He asked me as if he expected that this angel was appearing to me. Surprised, I said, "Bob, who is Emma?" He told me that Emma was the angel that helped birth and start the whole prophetic movement in Kansas City in the 1980s. She was a mothering-type angel that helped nurture the prophetic as it broke out. Within a few weeks of Bob asking me about Emma, I was in a service in Buelah, North Dakota. In the middle of the service I was in conversation with Ivan and another person when in walks Emma. As I stared at the angel with open eyes, the Lord said, "Here's Emma." I'm not kidding.She floated a couple of inches off the floor. It was almost like Kathryn Khulman in those old videos when she wore a white dress and looked like she was gliding across the platform. Emma appeared beautiful and young about 22 years old but she was old at the same time. She seemed to carry the wisdom, virtue and grace of Proverbs 31 on her life.

ANGEL OF THE PROPHETIC (Todd’s new doctored version)

Now let me talk about an angelic experience. Twice Bob Jones asked me if I had seen a particular angel that was in Kansas Cityin 1980. He asked me as if he expected that this angel was appearing to me. He told me that this angel helped birth and start the whole prophetic movement in Kansas Cityin the 1980’s as well as helping to nurture the prophetic as it broke out. Within a few weeks of Bob asking me about this angel, I was in a service in Buelah, North Dakota. In the middle of the service I was in conversation with Ivan and another person when in walks an angel. As I stared at this angel, I sensed the Lord saying that this was the angel that Bob Jones was speaking about. This angel appeared to be floating a couple of inches off the floor emitting brilliant light and colors.

She glided into the room, emitting brilliant light and colors. Emma carried these bags and began pulling gold out of them. Then, as she walked up and down the aisles of the church, she began putting gold dust on people. "God, what is happening?" I asked. The Lord answered: "She is releasing the gold, which is both the revelation and the financial breakthrough that I am bringing into this church. I want you to prophecy that Emma showed up in this service the same angel that appeared in Kansas city as a sign that I am endorsing and releasing a prophetic spirit in the church." See, when angels come, they always come for a reason; we need to actually ask God what the purpose is. Within three weeks of that visitation, the church had given me the biggest offering I had ever received to that point in my ministry. Thousands of dollars! Thousands! Even though the entire community consisted of only three thousand people, weeks after I left the church the pastor testified that the church offerings had either doubled or tripled.

The angel began walking up and down the aisles of the church putting gold dust on people. “God, what is happening?” I asked. The Lord answered: “This angel is releasing the gold, which is both the revelation and the financial breakthrough that I am bringing into this church. I want you to prophecy that the angel’s appearance is a sign that I am endorsing and releasing a prophetic spirit in the church.” See, when angels come, they always come for a reason; we need to actually ask God what the purpose is. Within three weeks of that visitation, the church had given me the biggest offering I had ever received to that point in my ministry. Thousands of dollars! Thousands! Even though the entire community consisted of only three thousand people, weeks after I left the church the pastor testified that the church offerings had either doubled or tripled.

During this visitation the pastor's wife (it was an AOG church) got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost she began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her. Also, as this prophetic anointing came on her, she started getting phone numbers of complete strangers and calling them up on the telephone and prophesying over them. She would tell them that God gave her their telephone number and then would give them words of knowledge. Complete strangers. Then angels started showing up in the church.

During this visitation the pastor’s wife (it was an AOG church) got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost— she began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her. Also, as this prophetic anointing came on her, she started getting phone numbers of complete strangers and calling them up on the telephone and prophesying over them. She would tell them that God gave her their telephone number and then would give them words of knowledge. Complete strangers. Then angels started showing up in the church.

I believe Emma released a financial and prophetic anointing in that place. That was the first angel that I have ever seen in the form of a woman. Some angels I've seen seemed like they were neither male nor female. However, Emma appeared as a woman who was like a Deborah, like a mother in Zion. When she came, she began to mentor, nurture and opened up a prophetic well. The people in the church began having trances and visions and the pastor began getting words of knowledge and moving in healing. That congregation also saw more financial breakthrough than they had ever seen before.

I believe this angel released a financial and prophetic anointing in that place. The people in the church began having trances and visions and the pastor began getting words of knowledge and moving in healing. That congregation also saw more financial breakthrough than they had ever seen before.

[DianeL]

I think I'll take it back in research for info on when it appeared to Bob Jones.

Thanks for posting this.

[Watchman4hm]

I looked up the meaning of the name "Emma." Most sources said its origin is from Germanic "ermen" meaning "whole" or "universal". (One source said it was Latin in origin, meaning "universal").

That's very interesting.

Especially since Todd is into "Contemplative meditation"..Which he got from a vision once..He was taken in vision supposedly by God to see an old supposed saint called Sindhur Singh (sp)...He mixed Hindu meditation with Christianity..Todd has (as well as the KC bunch) buzzwords like "soaking" etc that I believe are birthed by this demon Emma..

[youthwalk]

I have a question; is there concensus and agreement that this is real? That the version in red was said and that the version in black was doctored?

If this is obviously real, how is this doctrine not scary to a believer. How does this not send off warning bells?


It's a humble question because I'm concerned that we're not being discerning enough as followers of Christ.


Here is the whole Emma section of Todd's teaching in its original form and doctored state.

EMMA, ANGEL OF THE PROPHETIC (The original and true version, red parts have been removed on Todd's website)

Now let me talk about an angelic experience with Emma. Twice Bob Jones asked me about this angel that was in Kansas City in 1980: "Todd, have you ever seen the angel by the name of Emma?" He asked me as if he expected that this angel was appearing to me. Surprised, I said, "Bob, who is Emma?" He told me that Emma was the angel that helped birth and start the whole prophetic movement in Kansas City in the 1980s. She was a mothering-type angel that helped nurture the prophetic as it broke out. Within a few weeks of Bob asking me about Emma, I was in a service in Buelah, North Dakota. In the middle of the service I was in conversation with Ivan and another person when in walks Emma. As I stared at the angel with open eyes, the Lord said, "Here's Emma." I'm not kidding.She floated a couple of inches off the floor. It was almost like Kathryn Khulman in those old videos when she wore a white dress and looked like she was gliding across the platform. Emma appeared beautiful and young about 22 years old but she was old at the same time. She seemed to carry the wisdom, virtue and grace of Proverbs 31 on her life.

ANGEL OF THE PROPHETIC (Todd’s new doctored version)

Now let me talk about an angelic experience. Twice Bob Jones asked me if I had seen a particular angel that was in Kansas Cityin 1980. He asked me as if he expected that this angel was appearing to me. He told me that this angel helped birth and start the whole prophetic movement in Kansas Cityin the 1980’s as well as helping to nurture the prophetic as it broke out. Within a few weeks of Bob asking me about this angel, I was in a service in Buelah, North Dakota. In the middle of the service I was in conversation with Ivan and another person when in walks an angel. As I stared at this angel, I sensed the Lord saying that this was the angel that Bob Jones was speaking about. This angel appeared to be floating a couple of inches off the floor emitting brilliant light and colors.

She glided into the room, emitting brilliant light and colors. Emma carried these bags and began pulling gold out of them. Then, as she walked up and down the aisles of the church, she began putting gold dust on people. "God, what is happening?" I asked. The Lord answered: "She is releasing the gold, which is both the revelation and the financial breakthrough that I am bringing into this church. I want you to prophecy that Emma showed up in this service the same angel that appeared in Kansas city as a sign that I am endorsing and releasing a prophetic spirit in the church." See, when angels come, they always come for a reason; we need to actually ask God what the purpose is. Within three weeks of that visitation, the church had given me the biggest offering I had ever received to that point in my ministry. Thousands of dollars! Thousands! Even though the entire community consisted of only three thousand people, weeks after I left the church the pastor testified that the church offerings had either doubled or tripled.

The angel began walking up and down the aisles of the church putting gold dust on people. “God, what is happening?” I asked. The Lord answered: “This angel is releasing the gold, which is both the revelation and the financial breakthrough that I am bringing into this church. I want you to prophecy that the angel’s appearance is a sign that I am endorsing and releasing a prophetic spirit in the church.” See, when angels come, they always come for a reason; we need to actually ask God what the purpose is. Within three weeks of that visitation, the church had given me the biggest offering I had ever received to that point in my ministry. Thousands of dollars! Thousands! Even though the entire community consisted of only three thousand people, weeks after I left the church the pastor testified that the church offerings had either doubled or tripled.

During this visitation the pastor's wife (it was an AOG church) got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost she began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her. Also, as this prophetic anointing came on her, she started getting phone numbers of complete strangers and calling them up on the telephone and prophesying over them. She would tell them that God gave her their telephone number and then would give them words of knowledge. Complete strangers. Then angels started showing up in the church.

During this visitation the pastor’s wife (it was an AOG church) got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost— she began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her. Also, as this prophetic anointing came on her, she started getting phone numbers of complete strangers and calling them up on the telephone and prophesying over them. She would tell them that God gave her their telephone number and then would give them words of knowledge. Complete strangers. Then angels started showing up in the church.

I believe Emma released a financial and prophetic anointing in that place. That was the first angel that I have ever seen in the form of a woman. Some angels I've seen seemed like they were neither male nor female. However, Emma appeared as a woman who was like a Deborah, like a mother in Zion. When she came, she began to mentor, nurture and opened up a prophetic well. The people in the church began having trances and visions and the pastor began getting words of knowledge and moving in healing. That congregation also saw more financial breakthrough than they had ever seen before.

I believe this angel released a financial and prophetic anointing in that place. The people in the church began having trances and visions and the pastor began getting words of knowledge and moving in healing. That congregation also saw more financial breakthrough than they had ever seen before.

[Amadeo65]

Good God people, I posted about this like a couple of weeks ago. SEVERAL times I might add.

[BenAdam]

Good God people, I posted about this like a couple of weeks ago. SEVERAL times I might add.

and your point is?

[Tamara224]

I have a question; is there concensus and agreement that this is real? That the version in red was said and that the version in black was doctored?

If this is obviously real, how is this doctrine not scary to a believer. How does this not send off warning bells?


It's a humble question because I'm concerned that we're not being discerning enough as followers of Christ.


I have the same question. It's astounding really that this stuff is being accepted by anyone professing to be a follower of Christ.

I mean, to me, this is far beyond the "warning bell" or "red flag" stage.

The only answer that I can come up with is:

For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. (2 Thes. 2:11-12)


I don't know any other reason why people would so readily accept what is so obviously false. But I am very hesitant to say that anyone who believes this takes pleasure in wickedness.

[Simon Peter]

I have a question; is there concensus and agreement that this is real? That the version in red was said and that the version in black was doctored?

If this is obviously real, how is this doctrine not scary to a believer. How does this not send off warning bells?

It's a humble question because I'm concerned that we're not being discerning enough as followers of Christ.

Hi Youthwalk,

As a point of clarity:

Red and black is the original teaching. (red parts have been removed in the new doctored version)

Blue is the new doctored version.

[Tamara224]

Good God people, I posted about this like a couple of weeks ago. SEVERAL times I might add.


I know, I saw it. So?

[Watchman4hm]

I have the same question. It's astounding really that this stuff is being accepted by anyone professing to be a follower of Christ.

I mean, to me, this is far beyond the "warning bell" or "red flag" stage.

The only answer that I can come up with is:
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. (2 Thes. 2:11-12)
I don't know any other reason why people would so readily accept what is so obviously false. But I am very hesitant to say that anyone who believes this takes pleasure in wickedness.

People at meetings are so interested in seeing signs and wonders that they except anything from these people..What is alarming is the amount of people here in this forum who claim that no prophet should be excepted unless they are know to work among you..You they are the very ones who are crying foul when TB and his ways are challenged...lol

[Jimbeaux]

Good point. People who go to a gathering unquestioningly expecting something to happen—biblical or otherwise, real or false—usually find what they expect to find. This, I think, is how mass suggestion works. People become overly credulous and either see or remember things as they want to see them.

And you are right, those who are endorsing something that they have yet to (objectively) experience for themselves are just as gullible as those they criticize as being skeptical.

I have no clue what is happening in Lakeland and probably never will, for sure. Those who go expecting will not be disappointed any more than those who go rejecting. The truth lies somewhere in between.


~Jim
It is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves too much, that is poor.

[Watchman4hm]

Good point. People who go to a gathering unquestioningly expecting something to happen—biblical or otherwise, real or false—usually find what they expect to find. This, I think, is how mass suggestion works. People become overly credulous and either see or remember things as they want to see them.

And you are right, those who are endorsing something that they have yet to (objectively) experience for themselves are just as gullible as those they criticize as being skeptical.

I have no clue what is happening in Lakeland and probably never will, for sure. Those who go expecting will not be disappointed any more than those who go rejecting. The truth lies somewhere in between.


~Jim
It is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves too much, that is poor.



Agreed, the truth lies with THE TRUTH..We must trust that the Holy Spirit still guides us into all truth..HOWEVER, if we have decided beforehand that TB is ON IT, we will not hear the Spirits warnings, they will just be confusing to us because we have already made up our mind..

[youthwalk]

I have the same question. It's astounding really that this stuff is being accepted by anyone professing to be a follower of Christ.

I mean, to me, this is far beyond the "warning bell" or "red flag" stage.

The only answer that I can come up with is:
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. (2 Thes. 2:11-12)

I don't know any other reason why people would so readily accept what is so obviously false. But I am very hesitant to say that anyone who believes this takes pleasure in wickedness.

Yes. Exactly. I'm not comfortable saying that they take pleasure in wickedness. I don't know if they even SEE wickedness.

I think it's about deception. I think somethings, especially in the last days, will have a lovely veneer of being of God. But they will be filled not with the things of God but of mysticism mixed in with the Word. That's wrong.

Hi Youthwalk,

As a point of clarity:

Red and black is the original teaching. (red parts have been removed in the new doctored version)

Blue is the new doctored version.

Thank you! I think that's what I meant :sorry: what you said is much simpler though :)

[dmhforJesus]

subscribing

[Simon Peter]

Yes. Exactly. I'm not comfortable saying that they take pleasure in wickedness. I don't know if they even SEE wickedness.

I think it's about deception. I think somethings, especially in the last days, will have a lovely veneer of being of God. But they will be filled not with the things of God but of mysticism mixed in with the Word. That's wrong.


I think this is a very astute statement.

I agree that they're not seeing wickedness, they are seeing, or are being told of manifestations, and those present may even feel manifestations.

The spiritually naive assume it must be God.
In some cases it may be God, but that doesn't mean God is behind Todd Bentley or this so-called revival.

I believe we live in a far more spiritual world than most of us realize, and the enemy is the master of deception.

[Simon Peter]

I meant to add:

I looked into this deception issue, and believe there's only one way to avoid deception of this sort. We must assess Christian leadership according to two criteria:

1. Sound Doctrine

2. Good Character

If they pass these two tests you can feel ssafe about their ministry. If they fail even one of them, keep well away.

Todd Bentley blatently fails the sound doctrine test.

The problem is that most Christians are assessing a ministry by its size, how many people are saved, number of miracles. In other words, it's apparent success!

[DianeL]

I looked up the meaning of the name "Emma." Most sources said its origin is from Germanic "ermen" meaning "whole" or "universal". (One source said it was Latin in origin, meaning "universal").

That's very interesting.


I have a book called "The Name Book" - over 10,000 names - their meanings, origins, and spiritual significance - Author Dorothy Astoria

I looked up Emma and this is what is says;

Emma
Language/Cultural Origin : Old German
Inherent Meaning : All Embracing
Spiritual Connotation : Absolute Faith
Scripture : Mark 11:24 KNJV
"Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, beleive that you receive them, and you will have them."

Just thought I'd add this in.

[youthwalk]

I think this is a very astute statement.

I agree that they're not seeing wickedness, they are seeing, or are being told of manifestations, and those present may even feel manifestations.

The spiritually naive assume it must be God.
In some cases it may be God, but that doesn't mean God is behind Todd Bentley or this so-called revival.

I believe we live in a far more spiritual world than most of us realize, and the enemy is the master of deception.


This is important. He certainly is smarter than we are -- we claim to believe that and to understand that we cannot outwit Satan, yet when presented with clear cover ups and deceptions we don't believe that they can be of evil rather than of God.

[probinson]

At the risk of being called gullible and worse, let me try to explain why this doesn't really get me too worked up...

First, I don't know when or why this article was edited. I took some time and did some research at the Internet Wayback Machine to look at previous versions of the website and article. You can do this yourself also at http://web.archive.org. From what I can tell, the article has also been shortened drastically from its original posting.

Second, I pulled the article from an older version of the site into my text editor and did a text comparison, line by line, one sentence at a time.

From what remains on the website today, (62 sentences in the original posting), there are 12 sentences that have been edited and another 13 that have been completely removed. Far more than just what was in the OP is edited, if you really take the time to compare the previous article with the one that is there today.

However, in a side-by-side reading of each posting, the message has not changed. What has been removed in these edits and deletions are references to the name "Emma" and/or any reference to the fact that this was a female angel.

I'm only speculating since I obviously have no firsthad information, but I sincerely doubt that the focus of that article was ever intended to be Emma or female angels, which may well be the reason for the edits, since the Internet has gone into a tizzy with the number of people all worked up about female angels and "Emma".

That said, it does indeed appear dishonest and/or deceptive to take an article that has been available for 5 years and edit it with no explanation, particularly since one of the edits is a quote of what God said to Bentley. If my above speculation has any merit at all, then certainly the Fresh Fire website could have handled it better.

So, that brings me back to the old saying "eat the hay and leave the sticks". Since, contrary to popular belief, I've never seen Bentley as anything more than an imperfect vessel being used of God, this doesn't really throw me. Some of the things I've heard from Bentley are right on the money. Other things are kinda out in la la land. And so, instead of tossing the baby out with the bathwater, I try to eat the hay and leave the sticks, a lot like I do with many posters here on CF... ;)

Anyway, let the cries of "gullibility" and "blindness" commence! :D

[BenAdam]

At the risk of being called gullible and worse, let me try to explain why this doesn't really get me too worked up...

First, I don't know when or why this article was edited. I took some time and did some research at the Internet Wayback Machine to look at previous versions of the website and article. You can do this yourself also at http://web.archive.org. From what I can tell, the article has also been shortened drastically from its original posting.

Second, I pulled the article from an older version of the site into my text editor and did a text comparison, line by line, one sentence at a time.

From what remains on the website today, (62 sentences in the original posting), there are 12 sentences that have been edited and another 13 that have been completely removed. Far more than just what was in the OP is edited, if you really take the time to compare the previous article with the one that is there today.

However, in a side-by-side reading of each posting, the message has not changed. What has been removed in these edits and deletions are references to the name "Emma" and/or any reference to the fact that this was a female angel.

I'm only speculating since I obviously have no firsthad information, but I sincerely doubt that the focus of that article was ever intended to be Emma or female angels, which may well be the reason for the edits, since the Internet has gone into a tizzy with the number of people all worked up about female angels and "Emma".

That said, it does indeed appear dishonest and/or deceptive to take an article that has been available for 5 years and edit it with no explanation, particularly since one of the edits is a quote of what God said to Bentley. If my above speculation has any merit at all, then certainly the Fresh Fire website could have handled it better.

So, that brings me back to the old saying "eat the hay and leave the sticks". Since, contrary to popular belief, I've never seen Bentley as anything more than an imperfect vessel being used of God, this doesn't really throw me. Some of the things I've heard from Bentley are right on the money. Other things are kinda out in la la land. And so, instead of tossing the baby out with the bathwater, I try to eat the hay and leave the sticks, a lot like I do with many posters here on CF... ;)

Anyway, let the cries of "gullibility" and "blindness" commence! :D

Although I don't come to the same conclusion as you Pete, I think you are resonable and fairminded in this post. I would rep you but don't have any to give right now.

[Watchman4hm]

Sheesh, anything to justify self!

[Amaryllismayfly]

Todd Bentley explains why he edited it on his site. I am not defending him, but he has an explanation.

[probinson]

Sheesh, anything to justify self!
I think I prophesied this post just minutes before you made it! :D

[Watchman4hm]

I think I prophesied this post just minutes before you made it! :D

Just trying to help you out Pete..;)..But it does amaze me how much you want to make sure everyone hears you...lol..after all these years too..all the reports..I mean youve seen it all firsthand...lol..hehehe

[probinson]

Todd Bentley explains why he edited it on his site. I am not defending him, but he has an explanation.
Would you mind providing the link to the explanation? I just glanced quickly at his site, and I didn't see it anywhere.

Thanks!

[Amaryllismayfly]

There is a lot here~
http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=1059&pid=993

the part of editing is the third to last paragraph I think, entitled when did the devil change his plan.

[Simon Peter]

There is a lot here~
http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=1059&pid=993

the part of editing is the third to last paragraph I think, entitled when did the devil change his plan.

What Todd says is this:

From what I've been hearing, my heart is saddened because critical people are bringing more attention to the supposed "works of the devil" in my life, ...
For this reason, I asked my staff to remove from our website, articles that are causing such strife and division and deterring the Body from the very real and pressing focus of these last days.

Either this mention of removing articles has nothing to do with the doctored article of the OP, or he is misleading people yet again!

[irenemcg]

At the risk of being called gullible and worse, let me try to explain why this doesn't really get me too worked up...

First, I don't know when or why this article was edited. I took some time and did some research at the Internet Wayback Machine to look at previous versions of the website and article. You can do this yourself also at http://web.archive.org. From what I can tell, the article has also been shortened drastically from its original posting.

Second, I pulled the article from an older version of the site into my text editor and did a text comparison, line by line, one sentence at a time.

From what remains on the website today, (62 sentences in the original posting), there are 12 sentences that have been edited and another 13 that have been completely removed. Far more than just what was in the OP is edited, if you really take the time to compare the previous article with the one that is there today.

However, in a side-by-side reading of each posting, the message has not changed. What has been removed in these edits and deletions are references to the name "Emma" and/or any reference to the fact that this was a female angel.

I'm only speculating since I obviously have no firsthad information, but I sincerely doubt that the focus of that article was ever intended to be Emma or female angels, which may well be the reason for the edits, since the Internet has gone into a tizzy with the number of people all worked up about female angels and "Emma".

That said, it does indeed appear dishonest and/or deceptive to take an article that has been available for 5 years and edit it with no explanation, particularly since one of the edits is a quote of what God said to Bentley. If my above speculation has any merit at all, then certainly the Fresh Fire website could have handled it better.

So, that brings me back to the old saying "eat the hay and leave the sticks". Since, contrary to popular belief, I've never seen Bentley as anything more than an imperfect vessel being used of God, this doesn't really throw me. Some of the things I've heard from Bentley are right on the money. Other things are kinda out in la la land. And so, instead of tossing the baby out with the bathwater, I try to eat the hay and leave the sticks, a lot like I do with many posters here on CF... ;)

Anyway, let the cries of "gullibility" and "blindness" commence! :D

I believe Todd has mentioned quite publically that he withdrew the Emma stuff in Lakeland.

[Yekcidmij]

There is a lot here~
http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=1059&pid=993

the part of editing is the third to last paragraph I think, entitled when did the devil change his plan.


When Did the Devil Change His Plan?

From what I've been hearing, my heart is saddened because critical people are bringing more attention to the supposed "works of the devil" in my life, and here in Lakeland than to the very real and wondrous works of God. Too much credit is being given to the devil and to man to the detriment of God's sovereignty and power. Some are even attributing good and wonderful manifestations of God's loving response to His children, to the devil!

I don't know if it's "from the devil" or not, it's more likely from his own head I think. The highlighted portion is what's in question, and it's much easier to just declare that it's from God - at least nobody will question it then. Not everything that is "very real/good and wonderful" is all it appears on the surface. Anyone with 1/3 of a brain knows better.

And when does God change His plan from actually healing people to pretend-healing some people?



But this exalts no one but themselves when they choose to make a ministry out of their judgments and criticisms in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Oh my goodness. Now he wants to very subtly hint that people against him are using Jesus' name wrongly. Well, I seriously doubt you could characterize everyone that disagrees with TB like that, but I'm sure there are some that have a sole ministry to point fingers at TB. Anyways, if we don't use God given wisdom and make judgments and criticisims when they are needed, then we are unwise and quite bluntly, just plain stupid.



Since when did the devil come to heal the sick, raise the dead, open deaf ears and eyes, lead people to salvation in Jesus, or preach that the Kingdom of God is at hand? Just when did the devil change his plan? Jesus promised life and life more abundantly, and that's the fruit that we're seeing in Lakeland.

I have yet to see him explain why his "miracles" (if they are indeed real) point to Jesus. His reasoning is like this: sign/wonder happened -> therefore Jesus. It doesn't work like that. Jesus warned of lying signs and wonders. This isn't brain surgery. I have yet to see him preach about the Kingdom of God. I have yet to see him explain what salvation is. He just assumes that because something inexplicable might happen people are "saved". Saved from what TB? Miracles don't save you. Signs don't save you. Wonders don't save you. Healings don't save you. Visitations don't save you. Angels don't save you. Experiece doesn't save you. All I have seen, and unfortunately I have crucified my free time to watch him, is a stage show with a guy running around screaming and yelling, shaking on the floor, saying "bam you're healed", "god is moving", "I feel the presence of the holy ghost"...etc.. etc.. That doesn't save people! It may save them from a night of peace and sanity, but that's about it.



For this reason, I asked my staff to remove from our website, articles that are causing such strife and division and deterring the Body from the very real and pressing focus of these last days. Jesus wept when people missed the purpose. Every blessing flowed and people received, but they missed the purpose. Don't miss the purpose!

Yea. The real purpose. Don't miss it.


Again I emphasize, it's good and right to search out the Truth and to discern the spirits, God expects us to do so. Nevertheless, it's also important to do so outside of one's comfortable box, not mistaking discomfort for discernment, and realizing that God is not only a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but also a God of new things. Realize also, that if you spend time in His presence, in fellowship with Him, and if daily, you put on the full armor of God and spend time in His Word; you'll be more comfortable erring on the side of extravagance rather than quench the Spirit. A body of believers without the Holy Spirit is a breathless, lifeless body.

It's important to test for truth outside of your 'comfort box'? What the heck does a 'comfort box' have to do with testing for truth?

"A God of new things"....hmmm....."err on the side of extravagance".....so in other words, give him license to act like an idiot or you quench the spirit and you're a lifeless body. I'm afraid not TB. The Spirit indwells each believer whether they think you're a clown or not - and you are a clown - and I didn't just quench the Spirit by saying that.

[Simon Peter]

I believe Todd has mentioned quite publically that he withdrew the Emma stuff in Lakeland.

What does this mean?

Did Todd confess, say he was in error and was misled by Bob Jones and a familiar spirit?

Or does 'withdrew the Emma stuff' mean he's taken it off of his site because he doesn't want people to see it?

Or does 'withdrew' actually mean he's 'rewritten' it so people won't know what he really believes?

[Tamara224]

What does this mean?

Did Todd confess, say he was in error and was misled by Bob Jones and a familiar spirit?

Or does 'withdrew the Emma stuff' mean he's taken it off of his site because he doesn't want people to see it?

Or does 'withdrew' actually mean he's 'rewritten' it so people won't know what he really believes?


He claims in the link that he withdrew stuff because it was causing strife because people were questioning angelic visitations and his doctrine.

But why leave the stuff about angels at all and just remove the name of the angel? Why defend himself in one paragraph as to angelic visitation, but then remove the name of the angel when people question him about it?

Why is he unapologetic about it and yet still removes it?

I'm sorry, but this is very fishy.

[Simon Peter]

He claims in the link that he withdrew stuff because it was causing strife because people were questioning angelic visitations and his doctrine.

But why leave the stuff about angels at all and just remove the name of the angel? Why defend himself in one paragraph as to angelic visitation, but then remove the name of the angel when people question him about it?

Why is he unapologetic about it and yet still removes it?

I'm sorry, but this is very fishy.

I agree.

What he claims in his site is that he instructed his staff to remove articles that are causing strife. But at least in the instance of the Emma teaching, we know this is not the case. The article wasn't removed, it was doctored.

[irenemcg]

I agree.

What he claims in his site is that he instructed his staff to remove articles that are causing strife. But at least in the instance of the Emma teaching, we know this is not the case. The article wasn't removed, it was doctored.

I have a website and from time to time I might change an articles wording, seldom but it does happen

[Simon Peter]

But why leave the stuff about angels at all and just remove the name of the angel? Why defend himself in one paragraph as to angelic visitation, but then remove the name of the angel when people question him about it?

Why is he unapologetic about it and yet still removes it?


This is classic Kansas City Prophets (now IHOP). They'd say one thing and do another; and doctoring teachings and tapes was - allegedly - business as usual for them...

[Simon Peter]

I have a website and from time to time I might change an articles wording, seldom but it does happen

Editing is not what we are talking about here.

This is a very public ministry that has a hugely controversial teaching that I and many others have linked to.

This is more like the New York Times being accused of slander/libel, and instead of confessing and apologising, the NYT went back and rewrote what was said. This has all the appearances of dishonest behavior.

[Mathetes the kerux]

Especially since Todd is into "Contemplative meditation"..Which he got from a vision once..He was taken in vision supposedly by God to see an old supposed saint called Sindhur Singh (sp)...He mixed Hindu meditation with Christianity..Todd has (as well as the KC bunch) buzzwords like "soaking" etc that I believe are birthed by this demon Emma..
From what I understand the whole thing happened with Bob Jones who was visited in a dream/vision by a 19th cent Hindu Guru . . . who laid hands on him and told him to bring this anointing into the church . . . I guess he was really open about it . . . what is particularly interesting is that the manifestations that we see here (lakeland and toronto etc) are identical to Kundalini practices when the guru's impart Shaktipat . . .

[Watchman4hm]

From what I understand the whole thing happened with Bob Jones who was visited in a dream/vision by a 19th cent Hindu Guru . . . who laid hands on him and told him to bring this anointing into the church . . . I guess he was really open about it . . . what is particularly interesting is that the manifestations that we see here (lakeland and toronto etc) are identical to Kundalini practices when the guru's impart Shaktipat . . .


Heres a link for reading.. (http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=143&pid=954)

Below is another about Sundar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadhu_Sundar_Singh

In the above article here is what Sundar believes..
Universalism

Sundar Singh was a Christian universalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation); he believed that all people would, eventually, attain salvation. Writing in 1925 he argued:
If the Divine spark in the soul cannot be destroyed, then we need despair of no sinner... Since God created men to have fellowship with Himself, they cannot for ever be separated from Him... After long wandering, and by devious paths, sinful man will at last return to Him in whose Image he was created; for this is his final destiny.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadhu_Sundar_Singh#cite_note-Tentmaker-4)
In 1929, before his final mission, he was asked about the doctrine of eternal punishment by some theology students in Calcutta. He said that "There was punishment, but it was not eternal," and that "Everyone after this life would be given a fair chance of making good, and attaining to the measure of fullness the soul was capable of. This might sometimes take ages."[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadhu_Sundar_Singh#cite_note-Tentmaker-4)

[Mathetes the kerux]

Yes. Exactly. I'm not comfortable saying that they take pleasure in wickedness. I don't know if they even SEE wickedness.

I think it's about deception. I think somethings, especially in the last days, will have a lovely veneer of being of God. But they will be filled not with the things of God but of mysticism mixed in with the Word. That's wrong.



Thank you! I think that's what I meant :sorry: what you said is much simpler though :)

You know what the problem is though . . . the Bible is quite clear that the deception is their own fault . . . it is not that they have been ignorantly decieved . . . it is that God gives them over to their own desires.

There is a selfish hunger within them that leads them away . . . but it is their own.

God is merciful . . . and He will keep some inspite of this . . . but let us be honest . . . they are not without fault in the deception . . . they still bear some of the burden of responsibility.

And lets all be clear . . . we ALL love wickedness . . . hence Christ HAVING to die for us . . . it is only by His sovereign grace that we desire Him and not wickedness . . . yet we all struggle with the dual pulls of the old man and the new within. I desire wickedness . . . but is my desire for the joy of God Himself greater than the desire for wickedness . . . will I be sated with Him who is greater . . . or temporal things that are lesser?

:preach:

:blush: I am done . . .

[Mathetes the kerux]

Heres a link for reading.. (http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=143&pid=954)
Interesting . . . but the dude could have been a Christian . . . as Punjabi is not a religion.

What I am speaking of is something older . . . something with Jones where he was visited by a dead hindu guy.

[Mathetes the kerux]

I meant to add:

I looked into this deception issue, and believe there's only one way to avoid deception of this sort. We must assess Christian leadership according to two criteria:

1. Sound Doctrine

2. Good Character

If they pass these two tests you can feel ssafe about their ministry. If they fail even one of them, keep well away.

Todd Bentley blatently fails the sound doctrine test.

The problem is that most Christians are assessing a ministry by its size, how many people are saved, number of miracles. In other words, it's apparent success!
Amen . . . but we must add a third

The consensus of the governing body.

Hence 1 Cor 14 "and let the others weigh what is said" . . . there is something to be said about a high ecclesiology which sees the church as one of God's ordained means of governance (I am not espousing a church run government, but the rightful authority given to the Body of Christ . . . like taking the gates of Hades and proclaiming to the hordes of hell the purpose of God). There is much to be said for sound consensus as the Spirit brings such in a meeting.

[Mathetes the kerux]

At the risk of being called gullible and worse, let me try to explain why this doesn't really get me too worked up...

First, I don't know when or why this article was edited. I took some time and did some research at the Internet Wayback Machine to look at previous versions of the website and article. You can do this yourself also at http://web.archive.org. From what I can tell, the article has also been shortened drastically from its original posting.

Second, I pulled the article from an older version of the site into my text editor and did a text comparison, line by line, one sentence at a time.

From what remains on the website today, (62 sentences in the original posting), there are 12 sentences that have been edited and another 13 that have been completely removed. Far more than just what was in the OP is edited, if you really take the time to compare the previous article with the one that is there today.

However, in a side-by-side reading of each posting, the message has not changed. What has been removed in these edits and deletions are references to the name "Emma" and/or any reference to the fact that this was a female angel.

I'm only speculating since I obviously have no firsthad information, but I sincerely doubt that the focus of that article was ever intended to be Emma or female angels, which may well be the reason for the edits, since the Internet has gone into a tizzy with the number of people all worked up about female angels and "Emma".

That said, it does indeed appear dishonest and/or deceptive to take an article that has been available for 5 years and edit it with no explanation, particularly since one of the edits is a quote of what God said to Bentley. If my above speculation has any merit at all, then certainly the Fresh Fire website could have handled it better.

So, that brings me back to the old saying "eat the hay and leave the sticks". Since, contrary to popular belief, I've never seen Bentley as anything more than an imperfect vessel being used of God, this doesn't really throw me. Some of the things I've heard from Bentley are right on the money. Other things are kinda out in la la land. And so, instead of tossing the baby out with the bathwater, I try to eat the hay and leave the sticks, a lot like I do with many posters here on CF... ;)

Anyway, let the cries of "gullibility" and "blindness" commence! :D
I read the article before it was changed . . . and it was about angels and TB's angelology.

The references were removed to keep the heat off due to criticism . . . no whether this is wisdom to keep from causing offense . . . or a blatant coverup . . . that is the question to be answered.

[Watchman4hm]

Interesting . . . but the dude could have been a Christian . . . as Punjabi is not a religion.

What I am speaking of is something older . . . something with Jones where he was visited by a dead hindu guy.

Added a few more things to that last post of mine..

Heres a link to Jones and Sundar..HERE (http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word.html?ID=1389)

[PETE_]

Seems to me if you preface something with "the Lord said/answered", there should be no need to edit to take the heat off.

[Father Rick]

As to the sex of angels...

In scripture, angels are always referred to in the masculine tense/gender except for Zechariah 5:9 which specifically describes 2 "women with wings" who were messengers from God (aka. angels).

So... a female angel is clearly scriptural... as is a male angel...



...discuss amongst yourself...

[Watchman4hm]

As to the sex of angels...

In scripture, angels are always referred to in the masculine tense/gender except for Zechariah 5:9 which specifically describes 2 "women with wings" who were messengers from God (aka. angels).

So... a female angel is clearly scriptural... as is a male angel...



...discuss amongst yourself...

Will do:)..The stork was an unclean animal to the Jews..These two women are NOT representatives of God..However they are symbolic of evil religions to be set up for Mystery Babylon.

[Father Rick]

Will do:)..The stork was an unclean animal to the Jews..These two women are NOT representatives of God..However they are symbolic of evil religions to be set up for Mystery Babylon.Uhhhh.... you may want to read the passage again. It does not say that the women are storks, only that they have wings like a stork.

And they were acting at God's command/executing God's judgement... scripture specifically records God saying, "I will send it out..."


1 I looked again--and there before me was a flying scroll! 2 He asked me, "What do you see?" I answered, "I see a flying scroll, thirty feet long and fifteen feet wide." 3 And he said to me, "This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished. 4 The Lord Almighty declares, 'I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of him who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in his house and destroy it, both its timbers and its stones.'" 5 Then the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, "Look up and see what this is that is appearing." 6 I asked, "What is it?" He replied, "It is a measuring basket." And he added, "This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land." 7 Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman! 8 He said, "This is wickedness," and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed the lead cover down over its mouth. 9 Then I looked up--and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth. 10 "Where are they taking the basket?" I asked the angel who was speaking to me. 11 He replied, "To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When it is ready, the basket will be set there in its place."

[Watchman4hm]

He sends great delusion in the last days remember?.These are evil beings..God sent lying spirit's into Jeremiahs contemporaries as well, but that didnt make them Holy did it?These are the only women with wings found in the entire Bible. Women with wings are not angels. Although wings are seen in scripture as a symbol of God’s protective covering (Psalm 91:4), they are also depicted as an abominable covering (Daniel 9:27). The women with wings in Zechariah Chapter five have the wings of an unclean bird. This reveals that any covering they might represent will be an unclean spiritual covering—i.e., an unclean false religious covering (Psalm 91:4, Revelation 12:14, Zechariah 5:9, Isaiah 30:1).

[PETE_]

I think it adds to the idea that the two women were not angels the fact that both before and after that reference he is speaking to an angel but discribes the 2 women not as angels

[Watchman4hm]

Zechariah 5:5-11

This is the second of the judgment visions. God now wants us to know about the judgment of the false religions. Zechariah sees an "ephah." This was a measure that held a bit more than our bushel. This signifies something coming to the full, and being ready for judgment.

Zechariah 5:6
"... this is their resemblance through all the earth..."

The false religions are all similar in one way. They are all like this "ephah." They are all full of wickedness, and all ripe for judgment. The woman that sits in the midst of the ephah, represents the embodiment of wickedness...

Zechariah 5:7-8
"... this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. And He said, This is wickedness..."


The woman here is like the woman of the Revelation 17, 18. There she is called "Mystery Babylon." The "lead" weight upon the ephah shows the power of wickedness. Even a talent of lead (122 lbs.) used as a lid, would not hold down this woman. Evil, wickedness, and sin is abounding in our world.


This "woman" symbolizes evil in religion. In Revelation 12, and many places in the Old Testament, the "woman" represents Israel, especially when the nation is in sin. Often, the Bible uses the "woman" to be symbolic of wickedness.


Matthew 13:33
"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in 3 measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."


Revelation 2:20
"I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce..."


Revelation 17:1-7
"...Come hither, and I will shew thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters... I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast... upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus..."

Two women carry this ephah containing the woman to "Shinar". There, they will build a "house." These women have the "wings of a stork". The stork was considered an unclean bird (Leviticus 11:19). These two woman are symbolic of other evil religions that have deceitfully been preparing man for the final "mystery Babylonian" religion of the last days. There are many organizations now that are attacking true Christianity, and promoting many causes that are sinful. They will unite to endorse the false religions of the last days.

"New Age" is a conglomeration of most every false religious concept. They accept any idea or concept except fundamental Christianity. In the New Age religion, you can be a witch, or a warlock... be a Buddhist or a Hindu... believe in reincarnation, speak with demonic beings, use crystal balls, ouija boards, crystals, or tarot cards, etc... all these are accepted. Only if you say, 'There is one way to heaven, and it leads by the atoning work on the cross by Christ Jesus'... will you be rejected by this New Age religion.

The capital of this false religion will be the recently rebuilt city of Babylon in the ancient land of Shinar (now Iraq). This is also the capital of the Antichrist during part of the tribulation. This Antichrist will be a ruler of the Syria/Iraq area. Damascus (capital of Syria) will be seriously damaged in the initial war of the tribulation (Zechariah 9:1). Baghdad, capital of Iraq, was tremendously damaged in the Desert Storm war. The city of Babylon is sitting and simply awaiting someone to decide to make it the new capital. The Bible seems to indicate a soon coming merger, or joining, of Syria and Iraq. This city of Babylon will play a big part in the last days events.

For the first half of the tribulation, the Antichrist will reign from Babylon. Midway through the tribulation, it will be destroyed (Revelation 14:8). The Antichrist will move his capital to Jerusalem. The religions that merge and put their headquarters in Babylon will be tolerated, for a time, by the Antichrist, for they will see him as a messiah figure. The Antichrist is not the supreme ruler of this religion. Not until midway through the tribulation will the false prophet have the audacity to demand that all worship the Antichrist.

The revived Judaism in Jerusalem will also see him as the messiah for the first half of the tribulation. Midway in the tribulation, the persecution of the mystery Babylon against the Jews will spark a war and the city of Babylon will be destroyed. The false prophet steps up his promotion of the Antichrist and places an idol within the temple in Jerusalem and seeks to have all worship the Antichrist as a god.

[NewSong]

I forgot to post sources.

Two independent un-doctored sources:

http://www.upstreamca.org/angelichosts.html (http://www.upstreamca.org/angelichosts.html)

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html (http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html)

Todd Bentley’s website with its recently doctored version:

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40&pid=954 (http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40&pid=954)


Deba,

Can you provide a link to this article you are talking about? I must have missed it.

Thanks



I am a friendly with the one individual with the website. We used to have linked websites until I tore down my website. We don't always see eye to eye but we confide in one another and I am sure this individual will leave it untampered as well. :) In fact, I am going to email the individual and see what is said.

Interestingly enough that happens a lot. I asked about it with another ministry and staff members took the blame for printing and publishing something without the person who supposedly said it reviewing it. When reviewed by the individual who supposedly said it, it was edited because it did not reflect what was said. :(

As for me and my opinion, I am not biting int any of this stuff. I am holding out for GOD and what my brother indicated to me through a statement made in his church. Pray for our own personal revival.

ADDENDUM:

Never mind the above statement. I just reviewed the individuals website and all of that stuff changed too! Something is really wrong there as well. She changed her statements herself. :( ARGH!

[Lulav]

Will do:)..The stork was an unclean animal to the Jews..These two women are NOT representatives of God..However they are symbolic of evil religions to be set up for Mystery Babylon.

He sends great delusion in the last days remember?.These are evil beings..God sent lying spirit's into Jeremiahs contemporaries as well, but that didnt make them Holy did it?These are the only women with wings found in the entire Bible. Women with wings are not angels. Although wings are seen in scripture as a symbol of God’s protective covering (Psalm 91:4), they are also depicted as an abominable covering (Daniel 9:27). The women with wings in Zechariah Chapter five have the wings of an unclean bird. This reveals that any covering they might represent will be an unclean spiritual covering—i.e., an unclean false religious covering (Psalm 91:4, Revelation 12:14, Zechariah 5:9, Isaiah 30:1).:thumbsup:

I think it adds to the idea that the two women were not angels the fact that both before and after that reference he is speaking to an angel but discribes the 2 women not as angels:thumbsup:

Zechariah 5:5-11

This is the second of the judgment visions. God now wants us to know about the judgment of the false religions. Zechariah sees an "ephah." This was a measure that held a bit more than our bushel. This signifies something coming to the full, and being ready for judgment.

Zechariah 5:6
"... this is their resemblance through all the earth..."

The false religions are all similar in one way. They are all like this "ephah." They are all full of wickedness, and all ripe for judgment. The woman that sits in the midst of the ephah, represents the embodiment of wickedness...

Zechariah 5:7-8
"... this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. And He said, This is wickedness..."


The woman here is like the woman of the Revelation 17, 18. There she is called "Mystery Babylon." The "lead" weight upon the ephah shows the power of wickedness. Even a talent of lead (122 lbs.) used as a lid, would not hold down this woman. Evil, wickedness, and sin is abounding in our world.


This "woman" symbolizes evil in religion. In Revelation 12, and many places in the Old Testament, the "woman" represents Israel, especially when the nation is in sin. Often, the Bible uses the "woman" to be symbolic of wickedness.


Matthew 13:33
"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in 3 measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."


Revelation 2:20
"I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce..."


Revelation 17:1-7
"...Come hither, and I will shew thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters... I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast... upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus..."

Two women carry this ephah containing the woman to "Shinar". There, they will build a "house." These women have the "wings of a stork". The stork was considered an unclean bird (Leviticus 11:19). These two woman are symbolic of other evil religions that have deceitfully been preparing man for the final "mystery Babylonian" religion of the last days. There are many organizations now that are attacking true Christianity, and promoting many causes that are sinful. They will unite to endorse the false religions of the last days.

"New Age" is a conglomeration of most every false religious concept. They accept any idea or concept except fundamental Christianity. In the New Age religion, you can be a witch, or a warlock... be a Buddhist or a Hindu... believe in reincarnation, speak with demonic beings, use crystal balls, ouija boards, crystals, or tarot cards, etc... all these are accepted. Only if you say, 'There is one way to heaven, and it leads by the atoning work on the cross by Christ Jesus'... will you be rejected by this New Age religion.

The capital of this false religion will be the recently rebuilt city of Babylon in the ancient land of Shinar (now Iraq). This is also the capital of the Antichrist during part of the tribulation. This Antichrist will be a ruler of the Syria/Iraq area. Damascus (capital of Syria) will be seriously damaged in the initial war of the tribulation (Zechariah 9:1). Baghdad, capital of Iraq, was tremendously damaged in the Desert Storm war. The city of Babylon is sitting and simply awaiting someone to decide to make it the new capital. The Bible seems to indicate a soon coming merger, or joining, of Syria and Iraq. This city of Babylon will play a big part in the last days events.

For the first half of the tribulation, the Antichrist will reign from Babylon. Midway through the tribulation, it will be destroyed (Revelation 14:8). The Antichrist will move his capital to Jerusalem. The religions that merge and put their headquarters in Babylon will be tolerated, for a time, by the Antichrist, for they will see him as a messiah figure. The Antichrist is not the supreme ruler of this religion. Not until midway through the tribulation will the false prophet have the audacity to demand that all worship the Antichrist.

The revived Judaism in Jerusalem will also see him as the messiah for the first half of the tribulation. Midway in the tribulation, the persecution of the mystery Babylon against the Jews will spark a war and the city of Babylon will be destroyed. The false prophet steps up his promotion of the Antichrist and places an idol within the temple in Jerusalem and seeks to have all worship the Antichrist as a god. Looks like you have been reading too many end time novels by false prophet. Isn't the anti-christ to be worshiped As G-d? He is already and has been for thousands of years been worshiped as 'a' god.

[Watchman4hm]

Looks like you have been reading too many end time novels by false prophet. Isn't the anti-christ to be worshiped As G-d? He is already and has been for thousands of years been worshiped as 'a' god.

Nope. just the bible..:)...Try it with prayer, you might have God share His plans with you more clearly than you know now:)

[Mathetes the kerux]

Uhhhh.... you may want to read the passage again. It does not say that the women are storks, only that they have wings like a stork.

And they were acting at God's command/executing God's judgement... scripture specifically records God saying, "I will send it out..."

Unfortunately brother . . . I think that the gent is right. First, the woman is typified as wickedness . . . then the images of women are associated with unclean animals . . . and their arrival is that of deception and judgement. Remember that unclean spirits/demons presented themselves before God . . . much like the one sent to decieve the prophets in Kings and Chron. Satan is God's Satan . . . per sovereignty. Just because they are carrying out the decree of God does not make them goodly spirits . . . it may be their pleasure to decieve and God is capitalizing on their fallen natures.

Remember Paul's thorn in the flesh? Read the Greek . . . it is an ANGEL OF SATAN according to Paul . . . a demon . . . though God's plan is humility in Paul . . . I have no doubts that the spirit's intent is ill.

[LaffyTaffy]

Zechariah 5:5-11

This is the second of the judgment visions. God now wants us to know about the judgment of the false religions. Zechariah sees an "ephah." This was a measure that held a bit more than our bushel. This signifies something coming to the full, and being ready for judgment.

Zechariah 5:6
"... this is their resemblance through all the earth..."

The false religions are all similar in one way. They are all like this "ephah." They are all full of wickedness, and all ripe for judgment. The woman that sits in the midst of the ephah, represents the embodiment of wickedness...

Zechariah 5:7-8
"... this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. And He said, This is wickedness..."


The woman here is like the woman of the Revelation 17, 18. There she is called "Mystery Babylon." The "lead" weight upon the ephah shows the power of wickedness. Even a talent of lead (122 lbs.) used as a lid, would not hold down this woman. Evil, wickedness, and sin is abounding in our world.


This "woman" symbolizes evil in religion. In Revelation 12, and many places in the Old Testament, the "woman" represents Israel, especially when the nation is in sin. Often, the Bible uses the "woman" to be symbolic of wickedness.


Matthew 13:33
"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in 3 measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."


Revelation 2:20
"I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce..."


Revelation 17:1-7
"...Come hither, and I will shew thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters... I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast... upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus..."

Two women carry this ephah containing the woman to "Shinar". There, they will build a "house." These women have the "wings of a stork". The stork was considered an unclean bird (Leviticus 11:19). These two woman are symbolic of other evil religions that have deceitfully been preparing man for the final "mystery Babylonian" religion of the last days. There are many organizations now that are attacking true Christianity, and promoting many causes that are sinful. They will unite to endorse the false religions of the last days.

"New Age" is a conglomeration of most every false religious concept. They accept any idea or concept except fundamental Christianity. In the New Age religion, you can be a witch, or a warlock... be a Buddhist or a Hindu... believe in reincarnation, speak with demonic beings, use crystal balls, ouija boards, crystals, or tarot cards, etc... all these are accepted. Only if you say, 'There is one way to heaven, and it leads by the atoning work on the cross by Christ Jesus'... will you be rejected by this New Age religion.

The capital of this false religion will be the recently rebuilt city of Babylon in the ancient land of Shinar (now Iraq). This is also the capital of the Antichrist during part of the tribulation. This Antichrist will be a ruler of the Syria/Iraq area. Damascus (capital of Syria) will be seriously damaged in the initial war of the tribulation (Zechariah 9:1). Baghdad, capital of Iraq, was tremendously damaged in the Desert Storm war. The city of Babylon is sitting and simply awaiting someone to decide to make it the new capital. The Bible seems to indicate a soon coming merger, or joining, of Syria and Iraq. This city of Babylon will play a big part in the last days events.

For the first half of the tribulation, the Antichrist will reign from Babylon. Midway through the tribulation, it will be destroyed (Revelation 14:8). The Antichrist will move his capital to Jerusalem. The religions that merge and put their headquarters in Babylon will be tolerated, for a time, by the Antichrist, for they will see him as a messiah figure. The Antichrist is not the supreme ruler of this religion. Not until midway through the tribulation will the false prophet have the audacity to demand that all worship the Antichrist.

The revived Judaism in Jerusalem will also see him as the messiah for the first half of the tribulation. Midway in the tribulation, the persecution of the mystery Babylon against the Jews will spark a war and the city of Babylon will be destroyed. The false prophet steps up his promotion of the Antichrist and places an idol within the temple in Jerusalem and seeks to have all worship the Antichrist as a god.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Father Rick]

Watchman..

If you're going to use the symbolism in the passage to determine the source of an item, then you need to use all the symbolism...

It specifically states that these women had "wind in their wings". You are saying that since the wings were "like a stork" then that means that they were "unclean". However, "wind" is used throughout the OT and the NT to represent the Holy Spirit. In fact, there are several times when God is specifically said to "ride the wings of the wind". Also... horses are unclean animals, yet the very next few verses specifically show 4 horses and identifies them as "the four spirits of heaven going out from standing in the presence of the Lord", with those going to the north giving "[God's] Spirit rest in the north". So, from a strictly symbolic standpoint the fact that their wings are "like a stork" do not prohibit them from being from God (otherwise the horses would also have to be excluded, yet scripture is explicit on them) and there is symbolism of the wind-- indicating the working of the Holy Spirit.

Now to look at the context...

If you follow the passage as a whole (meaning several chapters here), it flip-flops back and forth between pronouncements of curse/judgement and promises of restoration/redemption. In the context of the particular passage, these 2 beings are actually taking iniquity and removing it from Israel. The curse that had just been pronounced was that "every thief would be banished" and "everyone who swears falsely would be banished". Then we see that banishment actually being illustrated in iniquity being "packed up and carried off" by these 2 angels. The following passages (chapter 6) continue right along with this theme with horses sweeping over the earth bringing rest from the Spirit of God, the king of Israel being crowned, the "Branch" (Messiah) being made priest, and the exiles coming back. In short, sin is removed and righteousness is restored. All this is clearly the work of God and not demonic in nature or agency.

And all of this also shows angelic beings appearing in a variety of forms... from horses (Chapter 6) to olive trees (Chapter 4) to women with wings (Chapter 5). Couple that with Ezekiel's prophecies and John's visions on Patmos and you get quite an interesting assortment of angelic creatures.

[Elijah2]

I can't help but wonder if anyone have checked out the comments made in Item 1 of this thread, and since then I have viewed a number of TBs videos that have been polished up and tampered with. But of course, there is no proof if you haven’t the originals to compare with the reedited ones.

Anyway, this "wind of change" that the false teacher/prophet talks about as the “outpouring” and “revival” has caused many God-anointed ministries to be flooded with emails from millions of concerns believers of the Body of Christ.

They all basically express the same concerns and warning that those members of the Body of Christ are falling to the seduction and deception of the falseness and "signs and wonders". Of course any further comment that I make will be received with the normal contempt.

This so-called the “third wave” is no different to the “first wave” called the Toronto Blessing that fizzled out, and then the “second wave” at Pensacola, which had the same fate.

This “third wave” is no different to the “first”, or the “second”, sad as it is, folks are coming from around the world for the “anointing”, and many will be burnt the same as those in the “first” and “second”.

The editor of Charisma Magazin, Lee Grady, sounds a warning:

“My inbox has been full of messages from Charismatic leaders who are concerned about everything from Bentley's tattoos and body piercings to his claim that he once interviewed the apostle Paul in Heaven. When I called for scrutiny of some aspects of the Lakeland Revival, I was labelled a Pharisee and a ‘religious policeman’. I had suddenly become the enemy.”

So much for a revival, when any discerning Christian expresses their concerns, all those ratbags comes flying back with apostasy. Wake up the Body of Christ you are being deceived and seduced by the “angel of light”!

Be blessed in Jesus’ Name.

[Mathetes the kerux]

Watchman..

If you're going to use the symbolism in the passage to determine the source of an item, then you need to use all the symbolism...

It specifically states that these women had "wind in their wings". You are saying that since the wings were "like a stork" then that means that they were "unclean". However, "wind" is used throughout the OT and the NT to represent the Holy Spirit. In fact, there are several times when God is specifically said to "ride the wings of the wind". Also... horses are unclean animals, yet the very next few verses specifically show 4 horses and identifies them as "the four spirits of heaven going out from standing in the presence of the Lord", with those going to the north giving "[God's] Spirit rest in the north". So, from a strictly symbolic standpoint the fact that their wings are "like a stork" do not prohibit them from being from God (otherwise the horses would also have to be excluded, yet scripture is explicit on them) and there is symbolism of the wind-- indicating the working of the Holy Spirit.

Now to look at the context...

If you follow the passage as a whole (meaning several chapters here), it flip-flops back and forth between pronouncements of curse/judgement and promises of restoration/redemption. In the context of the particular passage, these 2 beings are actually taking iniquity and removing it from Israel. The curse that had just been pronounced was that "every thief would be banished" and "everyone who swears falsely would be banished". Then we see that banishment actually being illustrated in iniquity being "packed up and carried off" by these 2 angels. The following passages (chapter 6) continue right along with this theme with horses sweeping over the earth bringing rest from the Spirit of God, the king of Israel being crowned, the "Branch" (Messiah) being made priest, and the exiles coming back. In short, sin is removed and righteousness is restored. All this is clearly the work of God and not demonic in nature or agency.

And all of this also shows angelic beings appearing in a variety of forms... from horses (Chapter 6) to olive trees (Chapter 4) to women with wings (Chapter 5). Couple that with Ezekiel's prophecies and John's visions on Patmos and you get quite an interesting assortment of angelic creatures.

I don't know . . . these agents are responsible for establishing the wickedness in a permanent standing in Shinar . . . why would good angels seek to build a house for wickedness?

The other take seems to be that the women are not literal . . . in that neither is the ephah nor the woman, wickedness, in the ephah . . . being that these two are symbolic . . . the agents may be as well. IF this is the case the two women are the nations of Assyrian and Chaldea who were used by God to mediate punishment on Israel and later Judah. The wind, then would be simply representative of the swiftness of the execution and the wings of the stork would then be simply to communicate the power and swiftness further.

Though I suppose if you take a systematic approach, there are certainly governing evil spirits over the pagan nations (as in Daniel and the princes who resisted the angelic messanger to Daniel) . . . the women would then certainly be demons who have been charged with the judgement upon Israel and Judah.

Whatever the case . . . I think it is hard to make a definite case that these are angels of God (or even demons) . . . there are too many variables; and apocalyptic symbolism is difficult to interpret without another authoritative passage to settle the issue.

At best we are back to square one . . . better to stick to TB's doctrinal issues that are clearer . . .

like the fact that this "emma" being was supposedly the same being that initiated William Branham's ministry . . . which is huge cause this gent denounced Trinity as a demonic doctrine straight from the pit of hell. I really just don't see a goodly angel as putting approval upon such a key issue.

[irenemcg]

If the body of Christ, whether for or against Todd Bentley focus on more of Jesus, knowing Him more, being filled with the Holy Spirit, discernment, and following Jesus in all we do we will not go wrong.
Surely it is dangerous to judge any brother or sister in Christ because they once said something which is contrary to your theological standpoint. None of us have a perfect theological understanding, we are a work in progress. The name of Jesus must be glorified at all times, He must be lifted high and God is still at work in Toronto and I believe in Pensacola. Revivals involve people , we are not perfect so the flesh does from time get involved but God can work despite us and I would be very careful about judging that which the Holy Spirit may be doing and referring to it as the work of the devil, which infact is being done here.

[Watchman4hm]

What we are seeing before our eyes is a culmination of the strong delusion that will be sent by God in these last days..Universalism is being packaged in a palpable way for those who dont study out what is being purported as "of God"...It has happened for a long time and has spurts here and there of popularity...The doctrine of Apokastasis (restoration of all things) is being promoted more and more within the confines of Christianity. This is no less than Universalism as well...The culmination of these teachings will be that all roads lead to God..Years ago we always heard the term "one world religion"..This is what Satan desires, a false god, deceiving even the very elect if possible, that he may be worshiped here on earth...Lying signs and wonders are already accompanying those who walk in error...Just because God confirmed His word through the apostles with signs in wonders with the establishing of the church, dont miss the warnings that before the church is taken away, the enemy of your souls is trying to copy what God did back then..:)

[Elijah2]

Mike Oppenheimer from “Let us Reason” says, “Instead of people getting saved, they are getting lost--by listening to a man's experiences of the supernatural that are unbiblical and untrue.”

Mike continues, “This revival has all the spiritual sensations and activities of the other revivals combined: Roaring, groaning, burning sensations in the body, head, and stomach; shaking, jerking, spiritual drunkenness and uncontrollable laughter and then some new manifestations. People have their eyes rolled back in the back of their heads. There are reports of women gyrating and pulsating like some unseen force has ravaged them from behind. Holy or un-holy may still be debated by some but to those of us who are knowledgeable of the previous ‘revivals’ and the power of the occult, the jury is in. The source is not the God of the Bible. This may disturb some but if they will use their Bible, pray, and think it through, they will gain discernment and spiritual understanding.”

The shakes, jerks, twitching, frozen stillness, laughter, animal sounds, and more have all been standard in other so-called “revivals” before this one. The Florida Revival is nothing new but it is preying on young and new believers who do not know their Bibles, nor understand the supernatural realm of darkness. It is also preying on the desperate, such as the sick people who can find no medical help.

As said before by many on the forum that TB talks about the mad chaos, which is totally uncharacteristic of God, our Lord Jesus Christ. TB says, “During a visitation, the pastor's wife got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost. She began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her.”

On “lighthouse Trails Research Project” it reports, “The following information will show Bentley's spiritual resonance with a man named Sundar Singh (1829-1929). At one point in Bentley's ministry, he had a vision of Sundar Singh. This vision influenced Bentley. According to the biographer of Singh, Singh spent much of his life in deep trance-like states communicating with spiritual beings”. Through this he saw the “glories” of the spirit world. He combined East and West in his meditative disciplines. He had long hours of meditation and days of silence.

TB talks about himself being possessed by demons undergoing a deliverance, his past Satanic worship, his mother levitating, and demons writing 666 on his cupboard in his kitchen.

It’s hard to tell the difference between the words of Bentley and those of Satan, because as reported before many times, TB says: “You see, I want to be fruitful; I want to be far above. I want to be a conqueror; I want to be a mountain of strength; I want to be greatness. You know, we like that word greatness. Well, he who dwells in the secret place of the Most High automatically comes into everything that the Almighty is. It happens.” Sounds like Isaiah 14:12-14?
TBs obsession with angels, particularly an angel named Emma and he says, “So when I need a financial breakthrough, I don't just pray and ask God for my financial breakthrough. I go into intercession and become a partner with the angels by petitioning the Father for the angels that are assigned to getting me money: ‘Father, give me the angels in heaven right now that are assigned to get me money and wealth. And let those angels be released on my behalf. Let them go into the four corners of the earth and gather me money.’”

We are warned in the Bible that the devil will “transform himself into an angel of light”, and that in the last days will come, and perilous times that “lying signs and wonders that will deceive, if possible, the very elect” (2 The. 2:9). The Bible tells us about the “wiles of the devil”, and that he is capable of the supposed “miracles” at the TBs meetings. Tragically, many pastors are having hands laid on them to receive this “Florida anointing” and further spread this deception, seduction, and chaos.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

[Watchman4hm]

Concerning all this barking and chicken squawking..

Isaiah 9:18Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. 19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. 21And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward. 22And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

[Simon Peter]

If the body of Christ, whether for or against Todd Bentley focus on more of Jesus, knowing Him more, being filled with the Holy Spirit, discernment, and following Jesus in all we do we will not go wrong.

Surely it is dangerous to judge any brother or sister in Christ because they once said something which is contrary to your theological standpoint.

Irene,

What would you do if a pastor started teaching the youth in your church (your kids) things that are unbiblical and just dead wrong?

From your posts, I'd imagine you'd just "focus on more of Jesus, knowing him more, disernment, and following Jesus...". In other words you'd ignore it, because you think "it's dangerous to judge any brother".

For the record, Todd Bentley has not just once said something which is contrary to sound Biblical doctrine. The Emma teaching is merely the tip of the iceburg.

Bentley is:

EXTREME Word of Faith
Latter Rain
Manifest Sons of God
(with perhaps some occult/new age/eastern mysticism)

These extreme and unbiblical beliefs influence every area of his 'christianity', and affect everything that comes out of his mouth. I strongly oppose most of what he teaches, and I refuse to let him teach my children.

Irene, what is dangerous, is when Christians claim its wrong to judge a brother.

[irenemcg]

Irene,

What would you do if a pastor started teaching the youth in your church (your kids) things that are unbiblical and just dead wrong?

From your posts, I'd imagine you'd just "focus on more of Jesus, knowing him more, disernment, and following Jesus...". In other words you'd ignore it, because you think "it's dangerous to judge any brother".

For the record, Todd Bentley has not just once said something which is contrary to sound Biblical doctrine. The Emma teaching is merely the tip of the iceburg.

Bentley is:

EXTREME Word of Faith
Latter Rain
Manifest Sons of God
(with perhaps some occult/new age/eastern mysticism)

These extreme and unbiblical beliefs influence every area of his 'christianity', and affect everything that comes out of his mouth. I strongly oppose most of what he teaches, and I refuse to let him teach my children.

Irene, what is dangerous, is when Christians claim its wrong to judge a brother.

I have moved from churches previously because of error in teaching. I will make a stance when I see serious error, particularly anything that detracts from the Lord Jesus Christ. BTW I was healed of a lump under my left arm weeks ago while watching the Revival on TV, Todd Bentley gave a word of knowledge and I received my healing. God can use Todd Bentley or anyone who is willing for God to work through them. God healed me, He is my healer.

[probinson]

A recurring theme that I see is in these discussions is that people seem to believe that focusing on Jesus and knowing Him more equates to "ignoring" a problem and/or accepting everything that is said, which is not true.

The question was asked, what if my pastor was teaching something that I thought was dangerous to my children. Let me first say, it's hardly accurate to compare how you would respond with your local pastor to Todd Bentley, and so the way I respond to my pastor, who I know and have a relationship with, is VERY much different than the way I respond to another pastor and/or someone I don't know.

"Judging a brother" was never intended to be a bunch of Christians gathering together on an Internet forum to point out error. To the contrary, the purpose of judging our brothers is to HELP them. On the VERY few occasions where my pastor has said something that didn't quite set right with me, I would speak with him about it, not with the intent to point out how wrong he was, but to point out what I believed was right. In doing so, I was able to bring light, instead of accusation.

A while back, I posted about "Correcting what is wrong or living what is right". I still live by the belief that living what is right is FAR more effective than correcting what is wrong.

As for my children I teach my children to be led of God. Therefore, if Todd Bentley or anyone else says something whacked and off-the-wall, I trust that God is able to keep them. I'm teaching them to hear and heed the voice of God, so that a voice of a stranger they will not follow. I will also teach them to not just toss aside someone just because they say something that they disagree with. "Eat they hay and leave the sticks."

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I believe that Todd Bentley is an imperfect vessel being used by God. I do not believe that he's the antichrist, nor do I believe that he has a demonic influence. I also do not believe that this is a strong "delusion" as has been put forth by some, most recently since the YouTube video on the other thread suggested it.

What I believe is that when you teach people to hear and heed the voice of God for themselves, it gives them an intimacy with the Father instead of constantly having to rely on self-appointed "watchmen". It teaches them to know the voice of the Father, and it teaches them to discern things with the Holy Spirit for THEMSELVES.

That is MY approach. I understand that not everyone takes that approach, and that's fine with me. I'm not tying to convince you that my way is the right way or the best way. But I am telling you that it works for me, and that is why I respond to these things the way I do.

[Simon Peter]

I have moved from churches previously because of error in teaching. I will make a stance when I see serious error, particularly anything that detracts from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Irene,

That's good to hear that you are willing to take a stand against error in teaching.

That's exactly what I and others are doing. So perhaps its not that you have an opposition to Christians judging doctrine and taking a stand against error, but more that you personally don't have a problem with Todd Bentley.

I hear you when you warn to be careful, and agree that the error must be serious. However, Todd Bentley is far far beyond any 'gray area'; if we don't take a stand against Bentley's doctrine what will we take a stand against?

[probinson]

if we don't take a stand against Bentley's doctrine what will we take a stand against?
Denial of the need for Christ as our savior?

I mean, there really are DANGEROUS doctrines that we have to take stand against. I just don't think we've seen anything that warrants such staunch opposition from Bentley.

IMO.

[Father Rick]

You know...

One of the biggest issues of the early Church was the issue of what doctrine was significant enough to be crucial to salvation... and what doctrine was not crucial.

Due to the vast differences in certain areas (especially when you look at Eastern views of spirituality compared to Western views) the church determine