Am I waaay off here!?

[BreadAlone]

I'm in a formal debate discussing the nature of the Catholic Mass as a Sacrifice..could you guys take a look and tell me what you think? Am I way off from a Lutheran perspective?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7250921

:confused:

[RevCowboy]

I'm in a formal debate discussing the nature of the Catholic Mass as a Sacrifice..could you guys take a look and tell me what you think? Am I way off from a Lutheran perspective?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7250921

:confused:

It looks good Bread Alone, I like your choices from the Apology.

Luther did indeed call the Mass a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, and I believe he did so to maintain common ground with Rome. However, the focal point of the problem with the Mass as a sacrifice is that it is a re-sacrificing of Christ each time it is celebrated, and the priest re-presents Christ in that sacrifice.

Re-sacrificing Christ each time suggests that the cross was not sufficient for our justification, which is quite clearly not what scripture says, in particular Paul in Romans. And as Lutherans who claim Justification as a meta-doctrine, it once again creeps into this issue. The difference in understanding in Eucharistic understanding is a matter of difference between Lutheran and Roman understanding of Justification. Lutherans claim that grace is imputed declaring us completely righteous, while Rome claims it is infused, constantly adding up grace in our heavenly bank account.

I guess in some ways as Lutherans claim that God is declaring us righteous in an ongoing fashion (simul justus et peccator), our view of the Lord's Supper is that it is ongoing. There are not many tables of the Lord, but only one and it is this same table to which we return to partake in the same grace and same forgiveness of the cross. Just as the Cross is timeless so is the Eucharist, and it on the one cross that our sins die with Christ and it is at the one heavenly table at which we are nourished because we are One Body, in both time and place, with Christ.

I hope some of what I said is helpful and good luck.

[Edial]

I'm in a formal debate discussing the nature of the Catholic Mass as a Sacrifice..could you guys take a look and tell me what you think? Am I way off from a Lutheran perspective?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7250921

:confused:
My oh my. When I was 15 the only thoughtful writing I did were cheat notes for exams. :)
Good work.

Athanasias is leading towards showing that RC is THE church through which Christ works. He calls the office of the ones performing the Eucharist as "Christ's priests".

Tall statement, since all believers are called Christ's priests.

REV 1:4 John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits n before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.


1PE 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


1PE 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him-- 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

"Spiritual sacrifices" in v.5 are not Eucharist. (He might come back with that. Ask him to prove it).
It is better defined in Romans
RO 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Also, sacrifice for sins is no longer required, neither through the Law or through the Eucharsist.

HEB 10:8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
HEB 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Thanks,
Ed

[Till]

My oh my. When I was 15 the only thoughtful writing I did were cheat notes for exams. :)
Good work.


Ed, that is what I thought as well. Very impressive, isn't it?

[Edial]

Ed, that is what I thought as well. Very impressive, isn't it?
It is really impressive.
I am thinking now, when I was 15 I simply did not know anyone in my school who were processing their thoughts that way while articulating themselves so flawlessly.
Oh, we had book nerds who knew math. But to articulate themselves?

This generation however, really surprises me.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[MarkRohfrietsch]

:)Awesome Job!:thumbsup::clap:

Very scholarly, but stick with us Lutherans, we need Theologians too!

Blessings,

Mark

[BreadAlone]

Very scholarly, but stick with us Lutherans, we need Theologians too!

LOL I was thinking "yeah..not a chance.." when I read his response!!

````````

Thanks everyone! I'm glad you think I'm so amazing!! :D

[Edial]

LOL I was thinking "yeah..not a chance.." when I read his response!!

````````

Thanks everyone! I'm glad you think I'm so amazing!! :D
Just be sure you understand where he is leading to in that debate.

His point ultimately will be that the RC church is IT. Therefore, whatever they say is God's word.

You could either touch on that point before he does or let him make it.
This takes wisdom.

I usually like to get to the point without one starting to lay down his groundwork. Or, I try to pay careful attention to the groundwork that is being laid and prevent it from being laid by pointing out the errors of it.

Thanks,
Ed

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Keith Green wrote in detail about the horrors involved and wasn't just banned for it, he was executed(assassinated).
Of course, there are those who say "peace, peace" when there is no peace, but...
read for yourself
"the cath. chronicles" free online by Keith Green and see what he died for.

[Tofferer]

Long time no see Jeff. Hey, can you provide a link. I'd like to check that out.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

it si eye opening to go see how much there is, just one or two or 40 links or even 4000 (there is more than enough )...
..
for starters g..gle keith green mass
in the first 2 pages of links there's about 12 links worth lookin at...



note that some of his work is very very hard to find , whether last day ministries or other forces not wanting the truth to be known...

(search engines and servers and internet sources are controlled, more every day)
also, be aware that you will find things keith green published that expose error carried over to many other churches also, not just one church.

[tz620q]

Keith Green wrote in detail about the horrors involved and wasn't just banned for it, he was executed(assassinated).

From Wiki on the death of Keith Green:

"Keith Green died on July 28 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_28), 1982 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982), when the Cessna 414 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_414) leased by Last Days Ministries crashed after takeoff from the private airstrip located on the LDM property. The small two-engine plane was carrying eleven passengers and the pilot, Don Burmeister, for an aerial tour of the LDM property and the surrounding area. Green and two of his children, three year old Josiah, and two year old Bethany, were on board the plane, along with visiting missionaries John and Dede Smalley and their six children. All aboard the seven-seat aircraft were killed.

Among several causes, the NTSB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Transportation_Safety_Board) determined that the crash was largely due to aircraft gross weight overload. The pilot, who was an experienced U.S. Marine Corps pilot, should have refused to take five more passengers than there were seats on the plane, but since military requirements put weight and balance responsibilities on the loadmaster of the flight and not the pilot, Burmeister may have neglected this responsibility by habit. With eleven passengers on board, the aircraft was considerably overloaded by nearly 450 pounds (202 kg) and laden center of gravity was located 4.5 inches past the maximum aft limit. Also considered is the fact that operator and pilot did not satisfy insurance requirements for aircraft familiarization for operation, and pilot's failure of several checkrides, leading to the revocation of his certificate shortly before the accident."

How do you see this as an execution or assassination?

[RadMan]

From Wiki on the death of Keith Green:

"Keith Green died on July 28 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_28), 1982 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982), when the Cessna 414 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_414) leased by Last Days Ministries crashed after takeoff from the private airstrip located on the LDM property. The small two-engine plane was carrying eleven passengers and the pilot, Don Burmeister, for an aerial tour of the LDM property and the surrounding area. Green and two of his children, three year old Josiah, and two year old Bethany, were on board the plane, along with visiting missionaries John and Dede Smalley and their six children. All aboard the seven-seat aircraft were killed.

Among several causes, the NTSB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Transportation_Safety_Board) determined that the crash was largely due to aircraft gross weight overload. The pilot, who was an experienced U.S. Marine Corps pilot, should have refused to take five more passengers than there were seats on the plane, but since military requirements put weight and balance responsibilities on the loadmaster of the flight and not the pilot, Burmeister may have neglected this responsibility by habit. With eleven passengers on board, the aircraft was considerably overloaded by nearly 450 pounds (202 kg) and laden center of gravity was located 4.5 inches past the maximum aft limit. Also considered is the fact that operator and pilot did not satisfy insurance requirements for aircraft familiarization for operation, and pilot's failure of several checkrides, leading to the revocation of his certificate shortly before the accident."

How do you see this as an execution or assassination?I knew Don Burmeister in high school. He was just an easy going guy with no guile and a smile on his face all the time. As far as a conspiracy-----I have no idea.

How is this relevant to the original subject matter?

[BreadAlone]

How is this relevant to the original subject matter?
LOL it's okay..I don't mind if you guys talk about something else.. :P

Anyways..the debate is going no where fast..his response was just a lot of the same thing repeated, which didn't even address the heart of the matter..making my response even harder to make. (Which wasn't that good either, really..)

[tz620q]

I knew Don Burmeister in high school. He was just an easy going guy with no guile and a smile on his face all the time. As far as a conspiracy-----I have no idea.

How is this relevant to the original subject matter?

:crossrc: for your friend.

Sorry to hijack your thread BreadAlone. It just got under my skin that YeshuaslaveJeff made such an accusation without any form of evidence.

[RadMan]

:crossrc: for your friend.

Sorry to hijack your thread BreadAlone. It just got under my skin that YeshuaslaveJeff made such an accusation without any form of evidence.He's dead. Probably doesn't need anyone's prayers.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

more than enough links show up plainly
just gooooooglin ...
when I post plain speaking truth
or links
the post gets deleted....
..
happy searchin ! :)

[LutheranMafia]

more than enough links show up plainly
just gooooooglin ...
when I post plain speaking truth
or links
the post gets deleted....
..
happy searchin ! :)Anyone that cares doesn't appear to give you any credence. Your conspiracy theories feed into themselves. When your posts are deleted, it isn't because you are posting a wacky conspiracy theory, you think the deletion of the post is actually part of the conspiracy... :doh:

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Hmmmm, interesting coming from a Lutheran....

Martin Luther was violently aware of the so-called "conspiracy theory"

but didn't call it a theory,

nor did the other reformers, all of whom for a time saw it and

preached ardently, vigorously, and with their whole hearts and lives against it. (and many were killed for it, as is well known)