Made to feel small for being a Baptist!!! [Archive]

trinityisunity

24th June 2008, 07:55 AM

BigNorsk

24th June 2008, 09:35 AM

Well, remember now, you get to be the person who writes history.

"I am used to a church that follows the bible but the church I visited doesn't, they follow the false prophet...."

"And this seems to be what makes them extremely self-righteous and unfriendly towards others..."

"While we have coffee for fellowship they seem to light to babble, jump around, and do the worm..."

Then send them a copy and tell them how this was the report that you felt like writing after your experience with them, because of their being so unfriendly.

Marv

cremi

24th June 2008, 03:20 PM

Do any other Baptists here ever feel judged by charasmaniacs as unspiritual???Yup!!! (raising hand very high here...wait...maybe both hands!:clap:) Except....I would add that I was talked down to when I wasn't a Baptist.

***Warning! Small tangent here***
I actually dislike the whole 'label' idea anyway. I've been a Christian for 35+ years, but I haven't always attended a Baptist church. To me, being a "baptist" is seondary to be a Christian. I happen to believe the SBC, where my family and I currently attend, has it right. In that sense, I don't mind being called a 'baptist', but I'd rather be identified as a follower of Christ, rather than a member of a particualr denomination.
***tangent over***

I've had numerous discussions with AOG's and pentecostals and I always seem to be condescended to, as if I missed some great truth. Like you, I have no problem accepting the idea that tongues exist today, but I don't believe they are necessary to demonstrate that one has the Holy Spirit living within them. I'm a bit surprised that he talked that way from the pulpit, even if he felt that way personally.

I also think the "emotionalism" is a bit over rated. Don't get me wrong---I too have experienced some very strong emotions during worship, even getting teary-eyed when really focusing on the sacrifice God gave us...I just plain get choked up thinking about it---but my faith in practice is not based on my emotion.

Does that make any sense? I'm not sure if I've had enough coffee today....:o:sleep:

Logus

24th June 2008, 03:22 PM

I wouldn't have announced myself prior to attending the service. If all you were doing was taking notes, no need to announce. After the service would then be the time to announce yourself to the pastor and ask questions.

I've worked with and had charismatic aquaintances, but I don't recall getting into too much debate on such issues. Now... Seventh Day Adventists... them on the other-hand will debate at the drop of a hat, often at the wrong time and place... all the while being ignorant of the chaos they cause with their veritable rants on when to worship.

HappyChicken

24th June 2008, 03:41 PM

I would write an honest report of how your experience went....and send them a copy. He should know how he made you feel.

holyrokker

24th June 2008, 07:37 PM

How about: "I was a Baptist before I got filled with the Holy Spirit."

There really is a lot of misperceptions within the Church as a whole. One denomination doesn't really understand another.

I started attending a Baptist church about 4 years ago. I did so very reluctantly because of my own bias against what I thought a Baptist church was like. After several weeks I was telling a friend, and I found myself saying "It's just like a regular Christian church."

I think you had a wonderful assignment. Do you think you might continue visiting churches from other denominations? It might be a great experience.

nzguy

26th June 2008, 01:24 AM

I can relate fully to being ostracised by Pentecostal beliefs. I beleive faith hope and love are the remaining spiritual gifts and the rest were used as tools by the Apostles to prove they were under God's authority and also to complete the bible.

This goes down like a sack of potatoes with Charismatics and Pentecostals of course.. but what I really don't like is what the OP mentioned..

where becuase I don't speak in tongues or prophesy in the sense of predicting the future.. many believe I dont actually have the Holy Spirit inside me!

Now that.. is where I get my dander up..

I am not so worried if they want to get into the sign and ministry gifts if they are abiding by rules of decency and order.. but I do get a bit miffed when they try to judge cessationists by saying they don't have the Holy Spirit

Not all Charismatics and Pentecostals say this.. but I have heard it from quite a numebr of them.

My response to them is.. what is salvation? Have a look at all the verses about salvation and eternal life in teh bible.. very few.. if any actually have speaking in tongues attached to salvation.

I also like to mention that the church at Corinth which is used as the example for spiritual gifts manifestation had major problems with Pagan rituals - where they would be speaking 'ecstatic utterances' which were not the gift of the Holy Spirit's speaking in tongues. Paul was adamant with the church at Corinth to do things decently and in order.. because they were trying to manifest the spiritual gifts all at once when meeting together to worship.. disorderly and indecent.

So.. I say if you want a clear example of Godly speaking in tongues.. look at Acts 2.. that is not an example of a church mixed with Pagan rituals.. but just the Holy Spirit working through people clearly.

HappyChicken

26th June 2008, 07:52 AM

The thing that makes me wonder about "speaking in tongues" is that it seems to me that its only done in the pentacostal churches. I would think that if it was a gift for today, that it would not be "denomination specific." Maybe I'm wrong on this, and it is in other denominations.... but it just seems to me that very specific groups have this gift, and that to me makes me question the validity. Also, I use to go to a Oneness Pentacostal church for a short time. They told me that if you did not speak in tongues you did not have the holy spirit. However, the lack of morals of some of the people who spoke in tongues disturbed me... If someone is so filled with the Holy Spirit, they would not be living the way these people were. I can get more specific, but I don't want to stray too far off the OP.

holyrokker

26th June 2008, 06:34 PM

"Speaking in tongues" is also found in some Lutheran, Weslyen, Nazarene, Catholic and even some Baptist churches.

HappyChicken

26th June 2008, 06:52 PM

"Speaking in tongues" is also found in some Lutheran, Weslyen, Nazarene, Catholic and even some Baptist churches.

Oh wow! I did not know that. -Learn something new every day! Thanks!

ImmersionX

27th June 2008, 04:57 PM

"Speaking in tongues" is also found in some Lutheran, Weslyen, Nazarene, Catholic and even some Baptist churches.

True, I've seen it, there is a quite large contingency of churches within the SBC itself that claim to be charismatic.

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/faqs.asp#8

Peace and God Bless.
:clap:

scjohnson1973

27th June 2008, 09:02 PM

I am a penticost and I am sorry they made you feel that way. I hope you don't mind me responding to this. I believe we are all brothers and sisters in Christ no matter what denomination we are. I do believe in speaking in tounges even though I don't have this gift. I don't belive that you have to speak in tounges to have the Holy Spirit. The holy spirit lives within us. God bless you all and have a wonderful night.

sacerdote

27th June 2008, 09:16 PM

A while ago I had to do an assignment for college. I had to go to another denomination's worship service and take notes and then write an essay comparing my church to it.

I rang the pastor of a pentecostal church in town and asked if he would mind me coming along one Sunday morning to do this task. He did not mind. When I arrived I was greeted by some people and it seemed really friendly. I met the pastor and introduced myself.

During the service he announced that they had a special visitor today and pointed me out as Ben from the Baptist church with a real distain and I really felt about 1 foot tall. The way he said it was like I was a disease or something.

Why is it that alot of pentecostals think that Baptists are unspiritual just because we do not bounce off the ceilings and roll on the floor laughing. I STAND ON GOD'S WORD. I AM UNASHAMED TO BE GUILTY OF THAT!!!!I do get emotional during worship my hands want to raise and sometimes certain songs get my eyes weeping and get choked up because of what God has done for us.

I personally do not speak in tongues but I do believe they are still available today-however alot of churches are full of people who speak babble trying to be super-spiritual and think that if they do not speak in tongues thay are not saved or will not be accepted by the church. There are fake fleshly tongues and there are the real Holy Spirit given tongues-I have seen and heard both kinds.

I do have some friends that are charasmaniacs and the reason they come to our church is that they have tried every other church in town and they believe our Baptist church has the best preaching, period. I guess they like the best of both worlds so to speak?

Do any other Baptists here ever feel judged by charasmaniacs as unspiritual???
Brother what happened to you wasn't right and that pastor sounds like he wasn't following the Holy Spirit the day he introduced you. But your remarks about pentecostals bouncing off the ceiling and laughing isn't much better in my opinion although I understand your hurt from that encounter. We have an excellent denomination with excellent doctrine that actually does not conflict with a good pentecostal church's. As Baptists, we do not embrace as exhuberantly some of the spiritual gifts that pentecostals do. I know this because I am a pentecostal Baptist. God bless you and let us pray for that pastor you mentioned and our own attitudes about other churches and believers who do things differently than we do.

allusion

28th June 2008, 09:03 PM

I used to be a member of a Pentecostal/Charismatic church. I didn't feel very welcome there after I broke up with my fiancé and my sister invited me to go to her church (American Baptist). I loved the Baptist church very much; everyone was so nice to me. I was suspicious at first and was sure that they wanted something from me because they were being so nice. :)

I kept going to the Charismatic one for a while though. What made me leave was what happened during the worship service one morning. The church had these large projection screens by the choir that showed the words to the song that was currently being sung so everyone in the congregation could sing along. Well, somehow the music got mixed up so there were no words on the screen; since it was a new song, most of the congregation didn't know the words and couldn't sing along. The music minister was absolutely livid, stopped playing the keyboard, and said into the microphone, "What do you think this is, a Baptist church? You can't get away with mumbling some old hymns here! God requires a joyful noise." Then he started playing the keyboard again, but people still didn't know the words (obviously), so he stopped playing again and got back to the microphone. "Would it make it better for you if I ran off the words to this song, stapled them in a book, and called it a hymnal?" Then he JUMPED off the stage, jumped onto the first pew, and started hopping up and down shouting that he was glad that he was not like the Baptists who try to limit God!

I was mortified; even worse, though, was the congregation's reaction to him. Many of them started yelling and jumping and praising God that they weren't like Baptists too! I just couldn't believe it. I had attended this church for three years and they had made some derogatory statements before, but my eyes were completely opened that day. I walked off the stage and left. I've never gone back. Even stranger, apparently the pastor (who tapes every sermon and sells the tapes to church members) included the music minister's diatribe in that week's sermon tape because he thought it was so inspired! I can't believe that people act like this. :(

I'd write your report and mail a copy to the pastor to let him know just how unwelcome he made you feel.

beamishboy

28th June 2008, 09:44 PM

I personally can't stand churches that have speaking in tongues. I have no doubt it's nothing more than gibberish that is an insult to the Holy Spirit.

But I think people are all uncomfortable with Christians who have a different tradition or culture.

My aunt became a Baptist after spending years in America. She's the only fundamentalist I've ever really known. I once visited her and she took me to a Baptist church that was named after the street it was on. She introduced me to her friends as "an altar boy of the Church of England". I could see eyebrows raised as if they were looking at a specimen from Mars.

My aunt probably thought I was too young to understand anything and she told them I wore a surplice and of course everyone asked what a surplice was. She described it in detail right down to the sash. Someone said, "Why would any church need an altar boy?" And someone said, "Why should anyone dress in fancy clothes?" They probably took more liberties because I was younger then.

Then the final blow came when my aunt told them I'd be made a thurifer soon. Of course that was to make everyone ask what a thurifer was. "You know," she said, "the person who swings the thurible or incense burner as the procession goes down the isle?" Someone said that was Catholic. I wanted to say that my church had fought the RCs more bitterly than most churches and we have prelates who were martyred by RCs and the 39 Articles of the CoE even insult the RCs.

All this is inward looking. On my part, I was aghast at what I saw in the church. No collect was said, no readings were heard, I didn't hear the Creed or even the Lord's Prayer, no Offertory, no Intercession, no anything that I was familiar with. In the front was a table which I assumed to be an altar but there were things placed on it that didn't make it look like a regular altar. Behind the pulpit was a fish tank that was supposed to be covered with a curtain which was drawn half-way carelessly. I asked my aunt what the fish tank contained and she told me in a haughty tone that it was like our baptismal font. I didn't know they immersed people and I thought they must be baptising thousands of people if they needed so much water.

It's not strictly a Pentecostal thing to specifically mention a visitor. They did that to me in the Baptist church. I was quite unnerved. I've been to churches all over England and Wales (CoE churches of course) and I've never seen a single church that identifies visitors or brings attention on them. I'm sure they meant it as a welcome but it's just too unusual.

I must admit that the sermon was really the highlight in a Baptist church. It was long but a bit theatrical and very effective. The guy in a modern jacket had a heavy American accent that made it necessary for me to listen more closely but he was very persuasive. Very different from the trite staid monotonous sermons that my vicar and most CoE priests give.

The feeling of discomfort is not confined to visiting a Pentecostal church. It happens when you visit any church that has a different tradition. It's natural.

PaladinGirl

28th June 2008, 10:03 PM

I can also relate to being ostracized for being Baptist and not Pentecostal or Charismatic. Every time I used to mention what church I was going to to a Pentecostal or Charismatic, they seem to reply with a disdain like "Oh, that church." It really got annoying. This doesn't happen much anymore though.

ImmersionX

28th June 2008, 10:20 PM

there are people in every type of church that act like they are "holier than thou"...also, a lot of the welcome process is "uncomfortable" to both sides of the coin, cause when someone is visiting a new church, and from the side of the regulars, they see a new face, give a basic "welcome, glad you are here.". But, when that visitor talks of, or is introduced as, being a regular of another church(of a different tradition)...that's when people make goofs of themselves! It then becomes a fine line from all sides to not be offending, yet talking about their own "side of the coin".
Am I making sense?
Any church that talks about other denominations from the pulpit, and my church is no exception(my pastor has 1 strike against him, and 3 strikes he's out...so to speak)....any pastor that preaches and uses another denomination as an example of "sin/evil/how not to do things" from the pulpit is an idiot. Peace

Natural1

30th June 2008, 10:10 AM

I atteneded a Free Will Baptist church as a teenager whose judgementalism turned me off to churches in general, but as an adult it has been two Baptist churches (I'm now a member of a Missionary Baptist) which has brought me back.
I'm no expert, but it seems to me Baptist churches are as varietal as Christianity itself, and anyone who looks down on Baptist churches likely looks down on any Christian church which doesn't adhere to their very specific beliefs.

A Brother In Christ

30th June 2008, 07:49 PM

A while ago I had to do an assignment for college. I had to go to another denomination's worship service and take notes and then write an essay comparing my church to it.

I rang the pastor of a pentecostal church in town and asked if he would mind me coming along one Sunday morning to do this task. He did not mind. When I arrived I was greeted by some people and it seemed really friendly. I met the pastor and introduced myself.

During the service he announced that they had a special visitor today and pointed me out as Ben from the Baptist church with a real distain and I really felt about 1 foot tall. The way he said it was like I was a disease or something.

Why is it that alot of pentecostals think that Baptists are unspiritual just because we do not bounce off the ceilings and roll on the floor laughing. I STAND ON GOD'S WORD. I AM UNASHAMED TO BE GUILTY OF THAT!!!!I do get emotional during worship my hands want to raise and sometimes certain songs get my eyes weeping and get choked up because of what God has done for us.

I personally do not speak in tongues but I do believe they are still available today-however alot of churches are full of people who speak babble trying to be super-spiritual and think that if they do not speak in tongues thay are not saved or will not be accepted by the church. There are fake fleshly tongues and there are the real Holy Spirit given tongues-I have seen and heard both kinds.

I do have some friends that are charasmaniacs and the reason they come to our church is that they have tried every other church in town and they believe our Baptist church has the best preaching, period. I guess they like the best of both worlds so to speak?

Do any other Baptists here ever feel judged by charasmaniacs as unspiritual???

The question is do they believe ... 1 cor 15:3-4... which is the good news !

there are three different vain words that 1 cor 15:2,10,17 states that keeps a person from believeing

if they pass this .... this is an opportunity to direct joy while under pressure... James 1:2-5, And focus on one position in Christ Col 3:1-4 so one can recieve the power from the grace of our position 2 tim 2:1 which is the fruit from the spirit Gal 5:22-23

why is this important .... they are watching you as a christian

1 cor 1:10-17 division is brought about by people following different types of teacher... the Christ as the head of the body is not devidied in Heaven... 1 jn 3:2-3, eph 4:3,13

Are you going to act like a child... young man ... or father... 1 jn 2:12-14 , 1 cor 8:12-13, 1 cor 14:33 peace....

aurgueing is a satanic attack ... talk about things that you agree with them like Christ work on the cross... and work your way up

Gal 4:29 all spirit lead christians will be attack by flesh lead christians!
a spiritual christian is looking as all christians forgiven by Christ on the cross and are sitting in the heavens positionally together... by grace

toolite

8th July 2008, 04:37 PM

Oh wow! I did not know that. -Learn something new every day! Thanks!

Spiritual gifts are given to people in the church and out of the church written in Corinthians. I believe that God looks at your heart. What's deep down inside you. How can one religion be 100% right. Think about no one person is perfect. Not one if they be honest. But, the love of God is so great plus his grace and mercy that he will use us and at times we are broken vessels. God can and will use whomever he chooses. Everone has value and everyone is needed. We all have a job to do. I can not do your job and you can not do mine. It's a little deeper than we think sometimes.

All the Glory Belongs to God!

onelamb

13th July 2008, 10:28 PM

trinityisunity

13th July 2008, 11:18 PM

Funny, this thread started because you said the Pentecostal preacher-anounced you were there-and somehow, that made you feel small? So, then the rest of you decided to deride the Pentecostals because they believe differently than you-I think this thread is sure an example of the pot calling the kettle black.

I am Pentecostal and no, we do not believe that people must speak in tongues to be saved-nor do we believe that those of you who are not baptised in the Spirit are not saved.

However, they will know that you are Christians by your "love".

If you could re-read the OP you will see that it was the WAY the pastor introduced me that I found hostile not the fact that he did introduce me! I am not that precious ;) The way he said I was a Baptist was completely in a derogatory way.

I am not saying you or most Pentecostals say that you have to speak in tongues to show that you are saved, but I know of some Pentecostal churches that do say that you must speak in tongues to prove you are saved. Which is not a Biblical view of salvation! Where does it say that you have to speak in tongues to show you are saved and if you do not you are not saved? I guess there are differences in the Pentecostal congregations as there are in the Baptist?

We have a few Pentecostals in my church and they are just as loving and caring as the more traditional Baptists. So it is true -'you will know them by their love:hug:.'

Grace and peace.

onelamb

14th July 2008, 06:52 AM

If you could re-read the OP you will see that it was the WAY the pastor introduced me that I found hostile not the fact that he did introduce me! I am not that precious ;) The way he said I was a Baptist was completely in a derogatory way.

I am not saying you or most Pentecostals say that you have to speak in tongues to show that you are saved, but I know of some Pentecostal churches that do say that you must speak in tongues to prove you are saved. Which is not a Biblical view of salvation! Where does it say that you have to speak in tongues to show you are saved and if you do not you are not saved? I guess there are differences in the Pentecotal congregations as there are in the Baptist?

We have a few Pentecostals in my church and they are just as loving and caring as the more traditional Baptists. So it is true -'you will know them by their love:hug:.'

Grace and peace.

I still think you were too easliy offended. , and many of those who added to this thread were more hostile and derogatory than saying "baptist" in a certian tone of voice.

We are saved by trusting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ-the baptism in the Holy Spirit (which is how one begins to speak in tongues) comes afterwards-just like baptism in water.

That is what the Bible teaches and 99% of Pentecostals believe.

I do not know anyone who believes tongues are a prerequisite for salvation except the Oneness Pentecostals and they have more problems than that.

Harry3142

14th July 2008, 06:41 PM

Salvation is not a matter of which denomination we are members of; it is a person-to-person decision which each of us must make at some time in his life. "Do I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior, relying solely on the efficacy of his sacrifice for my salvation, or do I travel a different route?" The answer to that question decides our fate; all else is mere follow-up.

Even though you have probably read this passage many times, it is worth repeating here due to its getting to the solid-rock foundation of what is true Christianity:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or, 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:5-13,NIV)

Who are we to trust? Are we to trust God and the efficacy of his work in order to attain our salvation, or are we to trust in our own efforts to earn our own righteousness? We all know the correct answer to that question. Our salvation is to God's credit, not ours, and we must accept it as it has been offered, with no additions or qualifications interfering.

The churches which teach this must stand firm, continuing to teach salvation as the Scripture tells us it is to be attained. On the other hand, the churches which teach that this is not enough, but that the dictates of the heirarchies of those churches must also be obeyed in order for us to, in effect, earn our own salvation must be recognized as places where the desire for personal power over others has corrupted those in authority.

trinityisunity

14th July 2008, 11:46 PM

I still think you were too easliy offended. , and many of those who added to this thread were more hostile and derogatory than saying "baptist" in a certian tone of voice.

We are saved by trusting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ-the baptism in the Holy Spirit (which is how one begins to speak in tongues) comes afterwards-just like baptism in water.

That is what the Bible teaches and 99% of Pentecostals believe.

I do not know anyone who believes tongues are a prerequisite for salvation except the Oneness Pentecostals and they have more problems than that.

You are right on the money that I was offended. The last thing I expected was to be spoken of the way I was and it was horrible and I did not like it one bit. Now the fact of the matter is that you were not there so you do not know how it was said so please do not presume I am easily offended. I was offended, but the way I was spoken about was unacceptable.

Imagine if you went to a different denomination on a Sunday and the pastor knew you were coming and then he decided to introduce you as a Pentecostal in a derogatory/hostile way-my guess is you probably would be offended too?

This is all I am saying on this now, no further discussion is going to be productive in any way-so I'll bail out here.

A Brother In Christ

15th July 2008, 09:18 AM

1 cor 13:11

onelamb

15th July 2008, 11:46 AM

You are right on the money that I was offended. The last thing I expected was to be spoken of the way I was and it was horrible and I did not like it one bit. Now the fact of the matter is that you were not there so you do not know how it was said so please do not presume I am easily offended. I was offended, but the way I was spoken about was unacceptable.

Imagine if you went to a different denomination on a Sunday and the pastor knew you were coming and then he decided to introduce you as a Pentecostal in a derogatory/hostile way-my guess is you probably would be offended too?

This is all I am saying on this now, no further discussion is going to be productive in any way-so I'll bail out here.

Alls I'm saying, by reading the preceding posts-that Pastor doesn't have a monoply on being derogartory/hostile.

cCensor

15th July 2008, 04:20 PM

Yup!!! (raising hand very high here...wait...maybe both hands!:clap:) Except....I would add that I was talked down to when I wasn't a Baptist.

***Warning! Small tangent here***
I actually dislike the whole 'label' idea anyway. I've been a Christian for 35+ years, but I haven't always attended a Baptist church. To me, being a "baptist" is seondary to be a Christian. I happen to believe the SBC, where my family and I currently attend, has it right. In that sense, I don't mind being called a 'baptist', but I'd rather be identified as a follower of Christ, rather than a member of a particualr denomination.
***tangent over***

I've had numerous discussions with AOG's and pentecostals and I always seem to be condescended to, as if I missed some great truth. Like you, I have no problem accepting the idea that tongues exist today, but I don't believe they are necessary to demonstrate that one has the Holy Spirit living within them. I'm a bit surprised that he talked that way from the pulpit, even if he felt that way personally.

I also think the "emotionalism" is a bit over rated. Don't get me wrong---I too have experienced some very strong emotions during worship, even getting teary-eyed when really focusing on the sacrifice God gave us...I just plain get choked up thinking about it---but my faith in practice is not based on my emotion.

Does that make any sense? I'm not sure if I've had enough coffee today....:o:sleep:

I was just walking by and read most of the post, because I like to deal with how people think and view the world.

I see more problems with the one who got offended. It may be impossible to offend me, because I don't care.

I have been to many baptist churches since there are 27 different kinds. I use to care when a preacher told me I could not do this or that because I was remarried, but I learned years a go that YOU could only hurt me if I cared or let you.

Now I can truly love everyone, because my Lord did. In the beginning it was only being a Christian that counted and as for me it still does.
As for tongues I don't care if you believe in this gift at this time. I don't, and can prove it in God's word, but it does not matter any more. It is my belief that only God can show you the truth.; not my job.

By the way I am on my 3rd pot of Coffee.

With Love and Respect... Censor

onelamb

15th July 2008, 06:36 PM

I believe it is real and for today-I am not afraid to discuss it with you, but you are right-only God can show you the truth=if you're willing to listen. Just like salvation-you can read and reread, but until you "believe" it doesn't matter it isn't "truth" for you.
ps-I like coffee too. Haven't had three pots yet though.

A Brother In Christ

16th July 2008, 06:32 PM

We are saved by trusting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ-the baptism in the Holy Spirit (which is how one begins to speak in tongues) comes afterwards-just like baptism in water.

tongues was a gift when the church was without the bible

1 cor 13:8 states that it would cease

1 cor 13:10 the perfect is come is refering to prophecy being finnished which connects to the finnishing of revelations

1 peter 4:10 states that we recieve only one gift

1 cor 12:11,18 states that the spirit determines what gift

1 cor 12:29 is asking are all apostles[in greek the understanding is no!]
is all teacher? NO are all worker of mircles? no

onelamb

16th July 2008, 08:00 PM

tongues was a gift when the church was without the bible

1 cor 13:8 states that it would cease

1 cor 13:10 the perfect is come is refering to prophecy being finnished which connects to the finnishing of revelations

1 peter 4:10 states that we recieve only one gift

1 cor 12:11,18 states that the spirit determines what gift

1 cor 12:29 is asking are all apostles[in greek the understanding is no!]
is all teacher? NO are all worker of mircles? no

1 cor 13:8 says tongues will cease when that which is perfect is come, and we "know as we are known"--that will not happen until Jesus returns, for now, "we see through a glass darkly"--saying that these things are for "when the church was without the Bible' is adding to the Word-the Word does not say that-only mans theology.

The gift of tongues is quite different than the tongues we receive when we're baptised in the Holy Spirit=the gift of tongues is "for the church gathered" and is to be done "when you come together" "each in turn and let one interpret" , not all people who speak in tongues as prayer are used in this gift...it's just like the rest of the 8

There are 9 gifts the Bible calls "spiritual gifts" and there is no such rule as only ever using one of them--these gifts are given 'as the Spirit wills" they do not "belong" to anyone. The gifts Paul lists in 1 Corinthians are not in any way, natural talents.

In order to help you understand the difference between the "gift" of tongues (for public manifestation)
and mere praying in tongues (something all of us who have been baptised in the Spirit--can do) here are a few scriptures....

Public Gift of Tongues

Spoken with interpretation to the church (Equal to prophecy-1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
To be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
Edifies the church (when interpreted-1 Corinthians 14:4-5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4-5))
A sign to unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A22))
Not given to all believers (1 Corinthians 12:30 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+12%3A30)))

Personal Prayer Tongue
Spoken privately to God (1 Corinthians 14:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A2))
No interpretation necessary (1 Corinthians 14:28 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A28))
Edifies the individual believer (1 Corinthians 14:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4))
Can be manifested when no unbelievers are present (Acts 10:46 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+10%3A46); 19:6)
Should be desired and practiced by all Christians Mark 16:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Mark+16%3A17); 1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5); Ephesians 6:18 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+6%3A18); Jude 20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Jude+20) ).

A Brother In Christ

16th July 2008, 08:21 PM

1 cor 13:8 says tongues will cease when that which is perfect is come, and we "know as we are known"--that will not happen until Jesus returns, for now, "we see through a glass darkly"--saying that these things are for "when the church was without the Bible' is adding to the Word-the Word does not say that-only mans theology.
the perfect is come... is nueter in greek
Jesus is always male form
bible is always female form

look it up....

The gift of tongues is quite different than the tongues we receive when we're baptised in the Holy Spirit=the gift of tongues is "for the church gathered" and is to be done "when you come together" "each in turn and let one interpret" , not all people who speak in tongues as prayer are used in this gift...it's just like the rest of the 8
the corinthian church has what kind of problem... they are carnal... 1 cor 3:1-3

Paul is reminding them of their position in Christ

There are 9 gifts the Bible calls "spiritual gifts" and there is no such rule as only ever using one of them--these gifts are given 'as the Spirit wills" they do not "belong" to anyone. The gifts Paul lists in 1 Corinthians are not in any way, natural talents.agreed

In order to help you understand the difference between the "gift" of tongues (for public manifestation)
and mere praying in tongues (something all of us who have been baptised in the Spirit--can do) here are a few scriptures....

Public Gift of Tongues

Spoken with interpretation to the church (Equal to prophecy-1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
To be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
Edifies the church (when interpreted-1 Corinthians 14:4-5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4-5))
A sign to unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A22))
Not given to all believers (1 Corinthians 12:30 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+12%3A30)))

Personal Prayer Tongue
Spoken privately to God (1 Corinthians 14:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A2))
No interpretation necessary (1 Corinthians 14:28 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A28))
Edifies the individual believer (1 Corinthians 14:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4))
Can be manifested when no unbelievers are present (Acts 10:46 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+10%3A46); 19:6)
Should be desired and practiced by all Christians Mark 16:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Mark+16%3A17); 1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5); Ephesians 6:18 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+6%3A18); Jude 20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Jude+20) ).

please look at the "perfect is come"

onelamb

16th July 2008, 08:43 PM

Please look at "when that which is perfect is come" in context-you are trying to make the "greek" say what you want it to-the translators did a pretty good job-they don't need us to define every word around our theology.....but here you go....

οταν conjunction
hotan hot'-an: whenever (implying hypothesis or more or less uncertainty); also causatively (conjunctionally) inasmuch as -- as long (soon) as, that, + till, when(-soever), while.
δε conjunction
de deh: but, and, etc. -- also, and, but, moreover, now (often unexpressed in English).
ελθη verb - second aorist active subjunctive - third person singular
erchomai er'-khom-ahee: accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, light, next, pass, resort, be set.
το definite article - accusative singular neuter
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
τελειον adjective - accusative singular neuter
teleios tel'-i-os: complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter completeness -- of full age, man, perfect.
τοτε adverb
tote tot'-eh: the when, i.e. at the time that (of the past or future, also in consecution) -- that time, then.
το definite article - nominative singular neuter
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
εκ preposition
ek ek: a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause literal or figurative; direct or remote)
μερους noun - genitive singular neuter
meros mer'-os: a division or share (literally or figuratively, in a wide application) -- behalf, course, coast, craft, particular (-ly), part (-ly), piece, portion, respect, side, some sort(-what).
καταργηθησεται verb - future passive indicative - third person singular
katargeo kat-arg-eh'-o: to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively

Now, in context-the Word says that we won't need tongues because we will know as we are known, but now, we see through a glass darkly.

You're going to have to come up with something better than that if you want to make your point that Paul was talking about "the Bible".

It just doesn't work.

Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit and He is the same forever--He called the baptism in the Spirit--"the promise of the Father" in Acts 1-and Peter told us who that promise was for in Acts 2:39

"for this promise is to you, to your children, and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call"

</SPAN>

A Brother In Christ

17th July 2008, 07:59 AM

the perfect is come... is nueter in greek

Jesus is always male form ..... not a nueter thing
bible is always female form .... not a nueter thing

prophecy is a nueter thing within the context

onelamb

17th July 2008, 04:17 PM

the perfect is come... is nueter in greek

Jesus is always male form ..... not a nueter thing
bible is always female form .... not a nueter thing

prophecy is a nueter thing within the context

Still doesn't make the "Bible" what Paul was speaking of. Paul was talking about the return of Jesus Christ only then we will know as we are known.

A Brother In Christ

17th July 2008, 07:57 PM

ctay

18th July 2008, 06:54 AM

"Speaking in tongues" is also found in some Lutheran, Weslyen, Nazarene, Catholic and even some Baptist churches.
If speaking in tongues happens in a Lutheran church its very rare.

I think it happens to all denominations though not just the pentecostal groups.

I was helping in a thrift store a couple of years ago, this lady that was helping too, she was talking to the lady that owned it about a friend of hers going to a Baptist church and how wrong it was. My mouth spoke before my brain and I told her it was wrong to put down another church and that she shouldn't be doing that. She got quiet

onelamb

18th July 2008, 07:18 AM

That would make our Saviour a thing....

My Saviour is not a thing but a person

Ummm, excuse me-I didn't say "Jesus" was what Paul was speaking of-I was talking about the "return of Jesus Christ"-the New Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God, heaven, the time when all Christians live in that perfect place. The time when we "know as we are known" and no longer "see through a glass darkly". Do not add to my words.

onelamb

18th July 2008, 07:20 AM

If speaking in tongues happens in a Lutheran church its very rare.

I think it happens to all denominations though not just the pentecostal groups.

I was helping in a thrift store a couple of years ago, this lady that was helping too, she was talking to the lady that owned it about a friend of hers going to a Baptist church and how wrong it was. My mouth spoke before my brain and I told her it was wrong to put down another church and that she shouldn't be doing that. She got quiet

Sure, Jesus doesn't ask what denomination you are before He baptises us in the Spirit-in fact, I was a Presbyterian when I received this--didn't take me too long to hightail it out of there though.