My Pastor did the stereotypical today!!!

[ImmersionX]

I know this is a "dead dog beaten" subject....but I really need help here....I was offended by the following, very angry, and my wife thinks I'm nuts......

Today in church my pastor preached the old Malachi 3:7-11 sermon.
Tithing is 10% of one's yearly income...the OT law still holds today. He spouted the whole "robbing God" speech, and my wife 100% agrees with this.
Apparently 5 years ago(before my time) our church was robbed of money. This a secular crime we can all agree. Literally someone broke in and took it. Anyway, my pastor compared that situation to people not tithing literally 10%. He stated that people who don't tithe properly are just as bad as the guy who robbed our church.

what what what????????????????

I am the type of person who takes church, and what church I am a member of very seriously. I left the Catholic church for many reasons, and it too over 20years to do that. I am older and hopefully a bit wiser now, and I honestly am conflicted here....do I want to even stay in this church now? This is the second time I am hearing stuff from the pulpit like this. Another time our youth pastor was sub-preaching sunday night, and mentioned Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses in the same sentence concerning the same thing! I am a former Catholic, and this also made me very angry. JW's just got it wrong all around!
Anywho, I am going off on another subject....

I'd love to hear your input on this....thanks in advance.

Peace and God Bless.

[holyrokker]

There is much more to understanding finances from a Biblical perspective.

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time at a church where the pastor teaches stuff like that.

[LovebirdsFlying]

I don't know you, your church, your pastor, or his motives, but to me something smells fishy.... In your place, I might consider a change. I'd be highly suspicious if a pastor harps too much on tithing, and I'd start to wonder if he didn't actually want the money in his own pocket.

[trentlogain]

I don't know about this. I haven't heard our pastor at the church I attend devote an entire sermon on tithing. When I do I'll remember this thread or maybe I won't. But let me ask you one thing..Do you believe in offering 10% of your income to the church?

Keep in mind..I'm not asking if you tith ten percent. I'm just asking you if you agree with what it says in the OT and (NT?)

[Amaryllismayfly]

why did you post this again?

[ImmersionX]

I don't know about this. I haven't heard our pastor at the church I attend devote an entire sermon on tithing. When I do I'll remember this thread or maybe I won't. But let me ask you one thing..Do you believe in offering 10% of your income to the church?

Keep in mind..I'm not asking if you tith ten percent. I'm just asking you if you agree with what it says in the OT and (NT?)

I agree that it is stated in the OT and was required of certain people....mainly crops/harvest. But it's never stated in the NT by any of the apostles.
When it is mentioned in the NT it's directed at the Pharisees.

Peace and god bless.

[ImmersionX]

why did you post this again?

I wanted lot's of perspectives on this....I post here and in the other forum.


Peace.

[trentlogain]

I did a little research and you're right. The apostles never directly said a certain amount for tithing, but their teaching certainly pointed out that it prevailed during that time. I'm not going to list Scripture except to paraphrase the old verse 'to whom much is given, much is required'

With that being said, I just want to ask you if your pastor ever preached the gospel during his tithing sermon. Was an altar call given?

[TimRout]

We are not under law, but under grace. While the OT law demanded 10%, Jesus requires His followers to surrender 100% [Luke 14:33]. It bothers me that those who wish to challenge the tithe nearly always argue for a lesser amount.

[ImmersionX]

Yeah and I agree that giving is wonderful! Never was against it, I am against a preacher telling people during Sunday sermon that it's 10% or your robbing God.

[mlqurgw]

God's sheep are led by the Shepherd and have the Spirit as their guide. They never have to be cajoled or coerced or driven to do that which is right. Goats ,on the other hand, must be driven and it never is a pleasant experience. Your pastor must think himself a goat herder. I have never met one that didn't feel the need to drive people by force.

[DiscipleofChrist2008]

We are not under law, but under grace. While the OT law demanded 10%, Jesus requires His followers to surrender 100% [Luke 14:33]. It bothers me that those who wish to challenge the tithe nearly always argue for a lesser amount.

Well said. I personally don't think tithing is too much to ask, after all it is the responsibility of church members to support the church both financially and in service to the church. And to clarify, the title of the message for this sermon was "The Baseline of Obedience", not "If You Don't Pay Your Tithes You're Going to Hell". If one cannot "afford" to tithe 10%, then it is your responsibility to tithe according to what you are able to do. ImmerionX is my husband and what he asked in his OP was about tithing and Biblical giving. Yes he was offended by our pastor's reference to "robbing God". However, I feel the need to defend my pastor here also, he did not give a money hungry sermon. The economy is bad for everyone including the Church. Our Church does a lot of wonderful things in the community as far as outreach, and these programs will suffer or cease to exist if members are not supporting the Church financially.

[DeaconDean]

I have to agree with my brother Ron on this.

But I also want to add this thought.

We are not living 2000 years ago when you could light a church with candles, we have electricity. How is the church going to pay the power bill without monies?

Unless your church has its own well and septic tank, how are they going to pay the water and sewer bill?

How is the church to pay for expenditures like buying Sunday School literature, hymn books, communion supplies, choir necessities, the pastors salary, the music directors salary, the piano players salary, building upkeep, etc?

God gave you all that you have, is it so bad to give 10% back when you consider it will come back sometimes 100 fold?

Some people need to be reminded.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[TwistTim]

From:http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=43&page=589

1. What is the tithe?
The word “tithe” comes from an Old English root meaning “one tenth.” It is the common English translation for the Old Testament Hebrew asar word group. The tithe was an offering of one’s agricultural income to the Lord as an expression of thanks and dedication. In the Old Testament agricultural economy, tithes were paid not in cash, gold or goods but in crops or livestock, for only the agricultural fruit of the promised land was to be tithed—not other forms of income. Although today we commonly think of the tithe as “10 percent” as a result, apparently there are three tithes in the Old Testament, two every year and a third every third year, or an average of 23.3 percent of one’s annual produce from the land. There was also provision for freewill offerings and personal giving above and beyond the tithe, so that the tithe never stood alone. Tithes were given by the patriarchs Abraham (Genesis 14:17-20) and Jacob (Genesis 28:22); a system of tithes was instituted in the law of God given through Moses (Deuteronomy 12; 14; 26); and the prophets rebuked the children of Israel for failing to give the tithe to God (Malachi 3:8). The idea of the tithe is still present (http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=43&page=589#519) in the New Testament (Matthew 23:23), but it is never explicitly applied to believers. Instead, almost all Christians are called to more extravagant freewill giving (http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=43&page=589#503) in response to the gospel (http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=1&page=43) of the Lord Jesus, based on faith in God as provider (2 Corinthians 9:6-10).

7.
How much was the tithe in the Old Testament?
While we normally think of the tithe as a flat “10 percent,” the biblical evidence suggests there were actually three tithes (Leviticus 27:30-33; Numbers 18:21-32; Deuteronomy 12:6; 14:22-29; 26:12) for an average total of 23.3 percent of what one produced while living on God’s land. This, of course, is in addition to all the sacrifices and offerings and freewill giving recorded in the Old Testament (e.g., Leviticus 1-7). So even in Old Testament times, 10 percent was neither the “basic standard” nor the “starting point” (http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=43&page=589#519) for faithful giving.

9.
Will God really “throw open the floodgates of heaven” if I start to tithe?
Perhaps. But we must recognize that this oft-quoted passage (Malachi 3:10) was written not as a blanket promise to Christians in all times and all places, but to a very specific group of people in history—the impoverished, insecure Israelites living in the land after their return from exile in Babylon. Many “health-and-wealth (http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=43&page=587#306)” teachers today misuse this passage to guarantee that God will give us prosperity in this life if we only start to tithe, especially to their ministries. (Other pastors use this passage less controversially as an encouragement to people who hesitate to give.) But do these same teachers also promise that God will send us into exile in Babylon if we don’t tithe? Such promises tend to ignore the context of Malachi 3, which is tied intimately to life in the promised land of Israel after the people returned from exile. Interestingly, God requires more here than just tithe (http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=43&page=589#503) (Malachi 3:5): He requires his people to be generous in mercy and justice. Similarly, the Pharisees during Jesus’ time were scrupulous tithers, but Jesus told them that they were condemned, for they preferred giving a fixed percentage of crops to the more demanding, more radical and more important (or as Jesus said, “weightier”) pursuit of justice and mercy and the love of God with their resources (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42). The command to give generously is not limited to a set percentage either in the Old Testament or the New. Instead, we are called to love our neighbor as we ourselves want to be loved (1 John 3:16-18), just as Jesus loved us (http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=1&page=43) (2 Corinthians 8:9). Of course, God in his gracious sovereignty may decide to bless us if we give generously (http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=43&page=587#320). For instance, the apostle Paul taught the Corinthians they would be blessed if they contributed to the collection for the poor, so that they would “be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion” (2 Corinthians 9:11). But we should not tithe or practice any other form of giving solely for the economic benefits it might bring; our chief goal should be to glorify God (2 Corinthians 9:12-15).

[LovebirdsFlying]

And to clarify, the title of the message for this sermon was "The Baseline of Obedience", not "If You Don't Pay Your Tithes You're Going to Hell". If one cannot "afford" to tithe 10%, then it is your responsibility to tithe according to what you are able to do. ImmerionX is my husband and what he asked in his OP was about tithing and Biblical giving. Yes he was offended by our pastor's reference to "robbing God". However, I feel the need to defend my pastor here also, he did not give a money hungry sermon.Then it's good to hear from you. You were at the church service and know what was said. I hope I made it clear in my first post that I was only speaking from gut reaction.

I also want to state that I am not speaking against tithing. We do our best in the giving department. We don't keep careful track of whether it's 10% or not. It might be more; it might be less. But I do stand by my original statement that clergy who *harp constantly* on the subject of tithing, all too often have less than pure motives. I've heard one too many sermons by those health-and-wealth preachers TwistTim referred to.

[angrylittlefisherman]

I dont know your pastor or your church or anything like that. However I do not think that you should leave because he said a couple of things you do not want to hear. This happens countless times in the protestant world and that is why it is such a fractured body. In all honesty I would approach your pastor and express you frustrations with his statements. It is obvious that your "sub-pastor" is simply uneducated about Roman Catholicism and JW's. Maybe you should address these issues, instead of leaving the church and leaving other brothers in Christ to receive what could possibly be bad teaching. However, remember you could be wrong too.

[Epiphoskei]

I agree that this may be irritating, but it's traditional and many pastors have been trained to say it because that's the kind of thing that is said. It's not biblical, but it is nothing new for a church to have trouble putting God above tradition.

But, from the sound of it, he only erred in saying specifically 10%. We are still supposed to give. Paul speaks strongly in several books about that.

[mlqurgw]

I have to agree with my brother Ron on this.

But I also want to add this thought.

We are not living 2000 years ago when you could light a church with candles, we have electricity. How is the church going to pay the power bill without monies?

Unless your church has its own well and septic tank, how are they going to pay the water and sewer bill?

How is the church to pay for expenditures like buying Sunday School literature, hymn books, communion supplies, choir necessities, the pastors salary, the music directors salary, the piano players salary, building upkeep, etc?

God gave you all that you have, is it so bad to give 10% back when you consider it will come back sometimes 100 fold?

Some people need to be reminded.

God Bless

Till all are one.If it is of God He will provide for it. There will be no need to ask people to support it. God's people are generous givers. That is what grace in the heart does. One of the most sure ways to tell if something is of God, radio and TV programs, internet websites, soup kitchens or whatever is that God provides for it. If the money dries up He isn't in it. If He isn't in it there is no good done by it. This isn't speculation on my part, I have seen it many times over. I know of many ministries that are very expensive to run but there is never once the need to ask for money to support it.

[shrewdsnake]

A pastor should be preaching what God leads him to. Just because one does not want to hear it doesn't mean it wasn't meant for someone to hear.

[ImmersionX]

I'm over it....thanks.

Peace.

[TC1]

My husband and I always tithe and ask our children to do it, whenever they make any money. Our pastor has never demanded it or made comments about robbing the church.

[AMOG]

My personal view is that once you feel called to plug your ministry into a particular place you shouldn't leave unless God calls you elsewhere or unless heracies are taught from the pulpit.

This sermon isn't heratical in my view, but it is rather juvinial I think. There are much better ways to teach stewardship then this brazen, ham handed, approach.

There is so much wrong with the way we handle our money and our lives that it takse more then a "baseline" approach to straighten us out, I'm afraid.

[SWigton87]

I actually agree with your preacher on the doctrine, but what is his attitude and motive? Remember we can't discard the entire Old Testament. I've prayed a lot about this, and I think it's important to tithe 10% of your earnings to your church - more if you the God speaks to you that way. God will take care of you, that ten percent will not put your home in shambles.

In the end, the Bible says you're robbing God? Maybe you should pray instead of get angry.

[handmaiden97]

hmm. well my first response you wont like...grow up! that is what I tell myself anytime I get offend. You see our taking offense at things people say is really just a sign of immuturity in ourselves...so as I would say and often do say to myself, suck it up princess!!!!!

ok about tithing..well I guess I agree with your pastor, I personally bleive we sshould give 10% of our income to God. I have seen time and time again when I give God provides for me in ways I did not expect and when I refuse to give, I have trouble in my income, I get in debt really fast! Now my pastor as general rule preaches about it one sunday a year because people really do get offended by the subect. there is one place he and I disagree though. he teaches that the tithe should come to the church and any offerings we give beyond that could go elsewhere. I personally believe the tithe bleongs to God and I try to be faithfull to give it where He leads, I usually do give part to the church, but I also and more often give to missionaries, or feed the children type organizations...(providing the organization is feeding spiritually as well as physically) I have complete peace about this method of giving!!!

so that is my 2 cents

[IisJustMe]

To me it's very simple. While there are no specific directives in the New Testament as to the tithe, or giving more or less than the tithe, it seems to me that Jesus Christ, who " ... is the same yesterday, today and forever," (Hebrews 13:8) would not expect less from those to whom He has revealed Himself (New Testament believers) than He expected from those to whom He remained concealed (Old Testament believers). He requires of us who know Him " ... to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God." (Micah 6:8, a passage I'm sure the OP heard Sunday) If those who did not know Him clearly, but only as a promise to come, could give 10% of what they received from Him (for our incomes are God-given, not self-earned) then how can those of us who know Him personally deign to give less? That does not make sense to me.