My friends say Judaism is man-made

[Kris10leigh]

Sorry, couldn't think of a better title. :sorry:

My friends often ask me why I am pursueing Messianic Judaism, and my short answer is that I feel like Christianity has become so man-made and that I'd like to get back as closely as possible to what Yeshua intended.

I have one friend who is very well-read in many of the major religions who tells me Judaism is also man-made. I never quite know what to say to him.

Have any of you ever faced this question and how do you respond?

[Lulav]

There really is a great difference in Todays' Judaism and that of the time of Yeshua.

I say, don't pursue any named religion, not matter what it's called, pursue Truth.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Sorry, couldn't think of a better title. :sorry:

My friends often ask me why I am pursueing Messianic Judaism, and my short answer is that I feel like Christianity has become so man-made and that I'd like to get back as closely as possible to what Yeshua intended.

I have one friend who is very well-read in many of the major religions who tells me Judaism is also man-made. I never quite know what to say to him.

Have any of you ever faced this question and how do you respond?The belief in Yahwah has been given the name Judaism by man. Before people were called Christians, they were called converts to Judaism. Acts 2:11
(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

Acts 6:5
This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.

Acts 13:43
When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

Galatians 1:13
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.

Galatians 1:14
I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

[anisavta]

I think it all depends on the definition of religion. If religion is man's attempt at figuring out G~d using man's reason and commentary then Judaism and Christianity are man made. If however we are taking G~d's Words from the Holy Writings and building a relationship with the Holy One - blessed be He through what He says, than IMO it is indeed not man made.

[GerTzedek]

First you have to ask yourself, what is that person REALLY saying? You see, the problem with his statement is that if you accept the Torah (which most Christians do) then it was G-d himself that laid down the teachings for Jews, not in visions or dreams, not merely "inspiring" men, but speaking directly to Moses. You don't get better than that. So where is he coming from? I can actually think of quite a few possibilites.

The first is that he may simply be a hold-over of 1960's disestablishmentarianism. The thing about Torah is that it will need to be interpreted. G-d even had his institutional response written into Torah to deal with this in Deuteronomy 17, giving those learned in Torah the right and responsibility to interpret, and the rest the obligation to obey. That rubs raw against the 1960's mentality. Who are you, who is anyone, to tell me what G-d means? Your interpretations are "man-made." Forget the fact that G-d gave you the authority! I do not recognize the authority of any man!

A second possibility is that he may simply be responding from a basic Protestant mentality. It's very similar to the above, but rather than distrusting authority in general, Protestants specifically distrust RELIGIOUS authority.

A third possibility is less logical but actually more likely. Protestantism began with a general distrust of tangible forms of spirtuality, because it saw that people could substitute these for genuine faith (and chose not to notice that most often people combine this with genuine faith). It has worked hard over the centuries to peal of layers of all forms of tangible religious expression, which it has especially in the last few decades come to label as "religion." It was during the 1970's that it became very trendy to say, "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship." This was a basic denigration of form, rite, rules, liturgy, etc. I remember thinking then that it's a wonder they still go to church on Sunday. But then, obviously today, even that is less and less the case as many feel no olbigation whatsoever to be part of a religious community. Now what what was called "religion" in the 70's is more and more often being called "man-made religion" today. You find someone who "believes in JC" who doesn't attend church, doesn't read their Bible, doesn't spend time in daily prayer, and they very likely may just say something like, "You know, that Methodist Church down the street is "man-made religion," but I have a personal relationship with JC!"

Next possibility: They may be a secular materialist, and since they do not believe in G-d, all religions are man-made religions.

In each of these cases, I think the person is drivin by underlying psychology. You don't usually accomplish anything trying to change opinions under such circumstances. I just tell them I disagree and why, and try to leave it at disagreeing agreeably. I assume they will continue to hold their positions becuase the underlying psychological need is not going to go away. I suggest you let your friend hold his opinion, and you keep holding yours.

I do not consider the Chrstian Scriptures authoritative, but a good example is a good example. James says "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." That is "man-made" religion: it is widows and orphans experiencing the love of G-d through the good deeds of others. Sometimes G-d works directly. But most often he chooses to work through people. When you speak to your friend, I would remind him of this. It won't change his mind, but you can hold your ground.

[ShirChadash]

The belief in Yahwah has been given the name Judaism by man. Before people were called Christians, they were called converts to Judaism. Acts 2:11
(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

Acts 6:5
This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.

Acts 13:43
When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

Galatians 1:13
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.

Galatians 1:14
I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

No matter how often, nor insistent, your touting of this and other nonsensical notions, it doesn't make it so. I suppose you think Cornelius was a convert to Judaism too, because he was praying at the hours and because he was a righteous gentile. But he was no more a Jew before Peter went to him than afterward... and he was never said to be a Jew. Nor even a Hebrew ^_^ .

[kivi]

kivi says: If I may endorse? GT's post is a brilliant discussion of the subject, done in a kind but rigorously intelligent manner. I can not recommend it strongly enough.



First you have to ask yourself, what is that person REALLY saying? You see, the problem with his statement is that if you accept the Torah (which most Christians do) then it was G-d himself that laid down the teachings for Jews, not in visions or dreams, not merely "inspiring" men, but speaking directly to Moses. You don't get better than that. So where is he coming from? I can actually think of quite a few possibilites.

The first is that he may simply be a hold-over of 1960's disestablishmentarianism. The thing about Torah is that it will need to be interpreted. G-d even had his institutional response written into Torah to deal with this in Deuteronomy 17, giving those learned in Torah the right and responsibility to interpret, and the rest the obligation to obey. That rubs raw against the 1960's mentality. Who are you, who is anyone, to tell me what G-d means? Your interpretations are "man-made." Forget the fact that G-d gave you the authority! I do not recognize the authority of any man!

A second possibility is that he may simply be responding from a basic Protestant mentality. It's very similar to the above, but rather than distrusting authority in general, Protestants specifically distrust RELIGIOUS authority.

A third possibility is less logical but actually more likely. Protestantism began with a general distrust of tangible forms of spirtuality, because it saw that people could substitute these for genuine faith (and chose not to notice that most often people combine this with genuine faith). It has worked hard over the centuries to peal of layers of all forms of tangible religious expression, which it has especially in the last few decades come to label as "religion." It was during the 1970's that it became very trendy to say, "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship." This was a basic denigration of form, rite, rules, liturgy, etc. I remember thinking then that it's a wonder they still go to church on Sunday. But then, obviously today, even that is less and less the case as many feel no olbigation whatsoever to be part of a religious community. Now what what was called "religion" in the 70's is more and more often being called "man-made religion" today. You find someone who "believes in JC" who doesn't attend church, doesn't read their Bible, doesn't spend time in daily prayer, and they very likely may just say something like, "You know, that Methodist Church down the street is "man-made religion," but they have a personal relationship with JC!"

Next possibility: They may be a secular materialist, and since they do not believe in G-d, all religions are man-made religions.

In each of these cases, I think the person is drivin by underlying psychology. You don't usually accomplish anything trying to change opinions under such circumstances. I just tell them I disagree and why, and try to leave it at disagreeing agreeably. I assume they will continue to hold their positions becuase the underlying psychological need is not going to go away. I suggest you let your friend hold his opinion, and you keep holding yours.

I do not consider the Chrstian Scriptures authoritative, but a good example is a good example. James says "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." That is "man-made" religion: it is widows and orphans experiencing the love of G-d through the good deeds of others. Sometimes G-d works directly. But most often he chooses to work through people. When you speak to your friend, I would remind him of this. It won't change his mind, but you can hold your ground.

[kivi]

Sorry, couldn't think of a better title. :sorry:

My friends often ask me why I am pursueing Messianic Judaism, and my short answer is that I feel like Christianity has become so man-made and that I'd like to get back as closely as possible to what Yeshua intended.

I have one friend who is very well-read in many of the major religions who tells me Judaism is also man-made. I never quite know what to say to him.

Have any of you ever faced this question and how do you respond?

kiv says: Without meeting your friend, it is hard to answer. I can not comment on Messianic part because I disagree heartily with its tenents. However, in regards to the rest, it seems that your friend is spiritually bigoted. Apparently, he takes the New Testament as the word of G-d but can not give that staus to anything but his own spiritual beliefs. There is really nothing that can be done for a person so inclined. They are forced to suffer spiritual decay because of their narrowmindness. All one can do is pity them. If, on the other hand, your friend wishes to learn, this is a great place for him/her to go. Invite them and we will create for them their own special thread so they can learn from knowledgable and competent Jews.

[ShirChadash]

Kristen, does your friend celebrate Chr*tmas? Easter vigil or Sunrise Easter services, and/or observe/fast/invest himself more, spiritually, in any way during "lent"? Keep a sunday "sabbath"/rest? Does he "go to 'confession' "?
There are hundreds and hundreds of entirely man-made doctrines, dogmae and practices to be found (and adhered to) within Chr*tianity. You know how the saying goes, those who live in glass houses ought not throw stones.

[HalcyonFire]

religion in itself is man made (because of that stupid tree) so yes it is, but not in the way they're saying. :)

my response would be the above, and, asking why your style of observence matters so much to them. does it change their beliefs? challenge them?

[cyberlizard]

Sorry, couldn't think of a better title. :sorry:

My friends often ask me why I am pursuing Messianic Judaism, and my short answer is that I feel like Christianity has become so man-made and that I'd like to get back as closely as possible to what Yeshua intended.

I have one friend who is very well-read in many of the major religions who tells me Judaism is also man-made. I never quite know what to say to him.

Have any of you ever faced this question and how do you respond?


consider the trees - from the time of the exile into babylon, the faith expounded by Moses has become multi-branching, take the easy types, by the second temple period when Jesus walked about, you had the sadducees (torah only Jews*), you had Pharisees (Torah and oral Torah Jews*), you had the essenes (separitisits in the real sense jews*), you had the zealouts (religio-politcal branch). All the branches of judaism were all judaisms, nowadays not all would be accepted by the orthodox, but within judaism in general it is not hard and fast and there are more groups now than then.

Then a faith called 'the way' sprang up essentially out of pharasaic judaism, and this branched off on its own, later splintering itself into many different factions (now we have branches called baptists, charismatics, pentecostals, evangelicals), all of these are further branches of the tree.

Sure Judaisms are man-made, but so are the branches of 'Christianity'. They are just the interpretations of someone or other.

The only way you will know for sure what Jesus taught, is to learn hebrew, greek and aramaic and buy yourself a time machine. Then you could come back and attempt to show everyone how wrong they are.... trouble is they will not listen (as people are happy believing what they want to believe (on the whole.))

My advice, if you want to learn about what Jesus taught, learn Torah and learn to interpret him as a jewishy rabbi, and buy some decent books, stuff like everyman's talmud, the mishnah, the didache, books by brad young or marvin wilson are good starting blocks.


All the best

Steve

p.s. there are some people who are so confused as to what they believe and why it is best not to ask (even on this thread).

*= jews in the generic sense (not tribally distinct - to much of a debate)

a big final p.s. judaism has more in common with the teaching of jesus on the whole though than christianity and so a messianic form of the faith is probably most authentic!

[Kris10leigh]

I wish I'd had time to get back to this thread sooner. I hadn't meant to make it about my friend. Sorry about that. He was just the catylist to my question. My friend considers himself a "recovering Catholic" ;), considered himself athiest for a while, and is not basically agnostic, trying to find his way back into Christianity. We have the most fascinating discussions and he and his wife are the only two people in the real world with whom my husband and I can speak freely about religion. I wouldn't change him for the world, nor would he try to change me. We just discuss and it's wonderful. He makes me think.

But one of the questions he often poses to me is basically that I'm trying so hard to get away from man-made religion and stumbling right into another form of it.

I don't know much about the history of Judaism. My ONLY experience with it is the Bible, which leaves out culture and there are major gaps. And then after the Bible was written, what happened? So I don't know how much of today's Jewish worship styles are man-made.

[Kris10leigh]

a big final p.s. judaism has more in common with the teaching of jesus on the whole though than christianity and so a messianic form of the faith is probably most authentic!
And that right there is exactly why I am here! :clap:

[HalcyonFire]

like cyberlizard said - all of it is because it is all interpretation and off shoots. BUT that's not what matters. What matters is heart and where your heart leads you (spirit wise I mean) and when you address that, what you are doing is seeking God, not religion.

[kivi]

There really is a great difference in Todays' Judaism and that of the time of Yeshua.

I say, don't pursue any named religion, not matter what it's called, pursue Truth.


kivi says: Besides the obvious, 2000 years of history has gone by, what would you claim is different? Do you agree that today's 'Orhtodoxy" is the direc t descendent from the Pharisees?

[kivi]

religion in itself is man made (because of that stupid tree) so yes it is, but not in the way they're saying. :)

my response would be the above, and, asking why your style of observence matters so much to them. does it change their beliefs? challenge them?

kivi says: The difference you point out is at the core of the Judaism and Christianity. Christainity is all about faith and belief. Do you believe in Jesus Christ? How strong is your faith? Have you made a decision for Jesus? Are you saved? These types of questions just do NOT exist in Judaism. There is no faith in being a Jew. You are born one. Whether you like or not, your a Jew is your mother is a Jew. And for converts its almost as 'bad.' While you may convert because you 'believe', once you convert, you're a Jew and can't convert back. So, it doesn't matter if you don't believe in G-d, you're still a Jew. There is no decision to be made. it is made for you, by G-d. The question in Judaism is not what you believe, it is what you do. You don't believe your way, you act your way. What you do with what type of Jew you are.:holy:

[kivi]

kivi says: A well done secular/Christian analysis

consider the trees - from the time of the exile into babylon, the faith expounded by Moses has become multi-branching, take the easy types, by the second temple period when Jesus walked about, you had the sadducees (torah only Jews*), you had Pharisees (Torah and oral Torah Jews*), you had the essenes (separitisits in the real sense jews*), you had the zealouts (religio-politcal branch). All the branches of judaism were all judaisms, nowadays not all would be accepted by the orthodox, but within judaism in general it is not hard and fast and there are more groups now than then.

Then a faith called 'the way' sprang up essentially out of pharasaic judaism, and this branched off on its own, later splintering itself into many different factions (now we have branches called baptists, charismatics, pentecostals, evangelicals), all of these are further branches of the tree.

Sure Judaisms are man-made, but so are the branches of 'Christianity'. They are just the interpretations of someone or other.

The only way you will know for sure what Jesus taught, is to learn hebrew, greek and aramaic and buy yourself a time machine. Then you could come back and attempt to show everyone how wrong they are.... trouble is they will not listen (as people are happy believing what they want to believe (on the whole.))

My advice, if you want to learn about what Jesus taught, learn Torah and learn to interpret him as a jewishy rabbi, and buy some decent books, stuff like everyman's talmud, the mishnah, the didache, books by brad young or marvin wilson are good starting blocks.


All the best

Steve

p.s. there are some people who are so confused as to what they believe and why it is best not to ask (even on this thread).

*= jews in the generic sense (not tribally distinct - to much of a debate)

a big final p.s. judaism has more in common with the teaching of jesus on the whole though than christianity and so a messianic form of the faith is probably most authentic!

[kivi]

kivi says: The term 'man-made' is really off-putting for Jews. It is used by Christian Missionaries to trash Judaism and gain converts. Most of our scriptures are trashed by Missionaries by being called 'man-made'. So it is really hard to answer you without bring an attitude to our dicussion. I will try my best not to do so.

The services instituted by G-d in direct dictation were the Temple services. Unfortunately, there is no longer a Temple. So, none of those services can be done until the Temple is re-built by King Moshiach. At the time of the Patriarches, all private services were considered private and left up to the choice of each individual Jew. Over time, these private services have taken more form, especially as Judaism has responded to the horrors of Galus [Exile]. Now a-days, they are all that is left. All services of Judaism have a 'man-made' element in them. If you want a detailed history of the development of these private services, I will by happy to direct you.

Of course, what religon does not have a human element. Religion is about a divine/human interaction. Part of that interaction, as it should be, will be human. What is wrong with that, as long as it is done within the boundaries so order by G-d?

I wish I'd had time to get back to this thread sooner. I hadn't meant to make it about my friend. Sorry about that. He was just the catylist to my question. My friend considers himself a "recovering Catholic" ;), considered himself athiest for a while, and is not basically agnostic, trying to find his way back into Christianity. We have the most fascinating discussions and he and his wife are the only two people in the real world with whom my husband and I can speak freely about religion. I wouldn't change him for the world, nor would he try to change me. We just discuss and it's wonderful. He makes me think.

But one of the questions he often poses to me is basically that I'm trying so hard to get away from man-made religion and stumbling right into another form of it.

I don't know much about the history of Judaism. My ONLY experience with it is the Bible, which leaves out culture and there are major gaps. And then after the Bible was written, what happened? So I don't know how much of today's Jewish worship styles are man-made.

[HalcyonFire]

kivi says: The difference you point out is at the core of the Judaism and Christianity. Christainity is all about faith and belief. Do you believe in Jesus Christ? How strong is your faith? Have you made a decision for Jesus? Are you saved? These types of questions just do NOT exist in Judaism. There is no faith in being a Jew. You are born one. Whether you like or not, your a Jew is your mother is a Jew. And for converts its almost as 'bad.' While you may convert because you 'believe', once you convert, you're a Jew and can't convert back. So, it doesn't matter if you don't believe in G-d, you're still a Jew. There is no decision to be made. it is made for you, by G-d. The question in Judaism is not what you believe, it is what you do. You don't believe your way, you act your way. What you do with what type of Jew you are.:holy:
no. that is not the difference. (have you ever been a practicing christian that you can speak to her specific situation? do you know that it says to be like Christ? if we are to be like Christ, some feel called to observe mitzvot whether or not it is "essential" and or they can/cannot turn back.)

I don't claim to be an authority on Judaism, or all Jewish practice or denoms... but I do know that the rules vary GREATLY just as in Christianity. Some christians ARE followers of mitzvot set forth in the torah. They feel they SHOULD do this. It is NOT all about feeling. It IS a change in personal being. We are CHANGED.

[cyberlizard]

kivi says: A well done secular/Christian analysis


thank you.

[Lulav]

Originally Posted by cyberlizard http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47561488#post47561488) a big final p.s. judaism has more in common with the teaching of jesus on the whole though than christianity and so a messianic form of the faith is probably most authentic!

And that right there is exactly why I am here! :clap: I don't think that is true. I think the problem is that everyone is trying to find something in existence ( religion) that they can get into that will bring them close to him, yet I don't think any of these will, they will just make you think you are. But you will be deceived.

[GerTzedek]

Lulav, you are back!
http://www.dreamstime.com/falling-confetti-thumb384058.jpg

[GerTzedek]

kivi says: The difference you point out is at the core of the Judaism and Christianity. Christainity is all about faith and belief.

kivi, you really are taking something complicated and oversimplifying it. You are actually responding to the "faith alone" claims of the smallest branching of Chrstianity, Reform Chrstianity, as if it were the whole, and even Reform Christianity cannot be boxed into such a sweeping generalization as the one you have given. If you think that John and Sally can simply say, "We believe in JC!" and then shack up, rob banks on Friday, and torture small animals, children, and prostitutes on Saturday, and then attend church on Sunday, and think that it's going to fly, you are quite mistaken.

It the flipside of the same problem I have when Chrstians want to make it seem like Judaism knows nothing about the grace of G-d, nothing about love, nothing about faith. It is truth that each faith emphasizes belief and faith. That's quite different than saying it is ALL about belief and faith. Do you see the difference in the wording?

[GerTzedek]

kivi: you said you taught debate team. I never did this in high school. Can I ask about this? Are rhetorical tactics allowed with winning as the objective? Or is the idea to reason well?

[kivi]

kivi says: Again, I only speak for the position of Torah True Judaism. I make no claim as to the other 'flavors'. As for my background, all I can say is that I have personal experience. In answer to your question of the difference between action and belief: Do Christians worrry about what they eat or do not eat, what they wear or do not wear, how they mutilate their bodies [tatoos and piercing, etc]? Do Christians concern themselves with Shabbos or holidays? When the last time a Christian went to a Christian court to check on whether a business deal was kosher or not? There is not such thing, before Yiddish, as to kosher or not kosher. You have to go to Judaism for the concept. Heck, there is no such thing as a Christian court for such matters. Christians don't have Bas Dinim. If you bought up the idea of Bas Dinim, you would get all sorts of 'legalism' objections from the other Christians. On the other hand, Christians are totally caught up with 'faith'. Go to a Christian forum and talk about 'good deeds' for 'getting into heaven' and see how quickly you are checked and double checked by the other posters reminding/hectoring you about how all you need is 'faith in the Lord Jesus Christ' and 'how it is impossible to 'good deed' yourself into heaven'. Action and faith are huge differences. In our case, the change is done by doing good deeds/Mitzvahs; in the Christian case, the change is done by correct faith/belief [Christians are 'saved' by faith, alone].


no. that is not the difference. (have you ever been a practicing christian that you can speak to her specific situation? do you know that it says to be like Christ? if we are to be like Christ, some feel called to observe mitzvot whether or not it is "essential" and or they can/cannot turn back.)

I don't claim to be an authority on Judaism, or all Jewish practice or denoms... but I do know that the rules vary GREATLY just as in Christianity. Some christians ARE followers of mitzvot set forth in the torah. They feel they SHOULD do this. It is NOT all about feeling. It IS a change in personal being. We are CHANGED.

[kivi]

kivi says: It is an on-going problem that Christians, themselves, bring up: what do you do with the bank robber Christian who keeps robbing banks after they have been 'saved'? Some of the more extreme Christian sects said that anything you do after you are 'saved' is OK, no matter how outrageous. Some say that if you keep robbing banks, it is obvious that the 'saved' is a fake/doesn't count. Some say that it is a process and after the 'saved' the rate of bank robbing will decrease. But it is a problem for all Christians sects that emphasis the 'saved/'born again' aspect of Christianity. I knw when we were studying it at Union Theological, it was always just left hanging without resolution. I find the same 'just left hanging' when talking to Christians, now. I appreciate your defense of Christianity and its problems.


kivi, you really are taking something complicated and oversimplifying it. You are actually responding to the "faith alone" claims of the smallest branching of Chrstianity, Reform Chrstianity, as if it were the whole, and even Reform Christianity cannot be boxed into such a sweeping generalization as the one you have given. If you think that John and Sally can simply say, "We believe in JC!" and then shack up, rob banks on Friday, and torture small animals, children, and prostitutes on Saturday, and then attend church on Sunday, and think that it's going to fly, you are quite mistaken.

It the flipside of the same problem I have when Chrstians want to make it seem like Judaism knows nothing about the grace of G-d, nothing about love, nothing about faith. It is truth that each faith emphasizes belief and faith. That's quite different than saying it is ALL about belief and faith. Do you see the difference in the wording?

[kivi]

kivi says: Since you didn't give a specific quote, I don't know eactly what you are referring to. Unless, of course, you are referring to everything I say.:) The facts of the matter are that I enjoy both the competition aspect of debate as well as the information exchange aspect. In formal debate, rhethorical tactics are both taught and encouraged as well as pure reasoning. I don't see why both can not be sought/acheived at the same time. I believe in both form and substance. See Denzel Washington and The Great Debaters, inspired by the true story of Wiley College's winning debate team of the early 1930s.

kivi: you said you taught debate team. I never did this in high school. Can I ask about this? Are rhetorical tactics allowed with winning as the objective? Or is the idea to reason well?

[Lulav]

Lulav, you are back!
http://www.dreamstime.com/falling-confetti-thumb384058.jpg:wave: l:Dl, pr:Dbably n:Dt f:Dr l:Dng th:Dugh........

[anisavta]

I know some of you do not take any stock in the Apostolic scriptures but here is what Ya'akov says about faith and works. And you can't generalize and say all Christians do this or that or don't do this or that any more than you can say all Jews do or do not do this or that.

Jas 2:14 My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and if one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them those things which are needful to the body, what good is it?
Jas 2:17 Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith from my works.
s 2:19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Do you see how faith worked with his works, and from the works faith was made complete?
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God."
Jas 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[HalcyonFire]

kivi says: Again, I only speak for the position of Torah True Judaism. I make no claim as to the other 'flavors'. As for my background, all I can say is that I have personal experience. In answer to your question of the difference between action and belief: Do Christians worrry about what they eat or do not eat, what they wear or do not wear, how they mutilate their bodies [tatoos and piercing, etc]? Do Christians concern themselves with Shabbos or holidays? When the last time a Christian went to a Christian court to check on whether a business deal was kosher or not? There is not such thing, before Yiddish, as to kosher or not kosher. You have to go to Judaism for the concept. Heck, there is no such thing as a Christian court for such matters. Christians don't have Bas Dinim. If you bought up the idea of Bas Dinim, you would get all sorts of 'legalism' objections from the other Christians. On the other hand, Christians are totally caught up with 'faith'. Go to a Christian forum and talk about 'good deeds' for 'getting into heaven' and see how quickly you are checked and double checked by the other posters reminding/hectoring you about how all you need is 'faith in the Lord Jesus Christ' and 'how it is impossible to 'good deed' yourself into heaven'. Action and faith are huge differences. In our case, the change is done by doing good deeds/Mitzvahs; in the Christian case, the change is done by correct faith/belief [Christians are 'saved' by faith, alone].
some actually do worry about dress and tattoos. they also do the holiday thing, but unfortunately just the pagan absorbed into christianity holidays. there are lots of "laws" they focus on, just not the same ones as you guys - lol. It's not lacking in these things, just has different applications. Try talking baptism with some christians or the necessity or not of communion. lol.

[Mikeb85]

some actually do worry about dress and tattoos. they also do the holiday thing, but unfortunately just the pagan absorbed into christianity holidays. there are lots of "laws" they focus on, just not the same ones as you guys - lol. It's not lacking in these things, just has different applications. Try talking baptism with some christians or the necessity or not of communion. lol.

Which pagan holidays? Pascha (Passover), Pentecost (Shavuot), the Nativity of Jesus Christ, etc....?

[HalcyonFire]

christmas, easter... stuff like that. (from Mithra worship and some pagan fertility goddess)

[Mikeb85]

christmas, easter... stuff like that. (from Mithra worship and some pagan fertility goddess)

Just curious, but how much do you actually know about those ancient pagan religions and their practices?

I've done years of study on ancient cultures and religions - most of the so called pagan-Christian connections are fabrications, by pseudo-scholars and historians, intent on slandering the faith.

In the case of Mithraism, it was a syncretic religion based on a Proto-Indo-Iranian diety. There are many indications that similarities to Christianity can be traced to the fact that it developed in the same time period, and was a competing religion in the Roman empire. But like all those other 'mystery religions', it died out.

There are no more pagan practices in Christianity than in Judaism (and if you're curious, many scholars have tried connecting Judaism to Egyptian and Babylonian mystery religions, with seemingly convincing arguments).

[HalcyonFire]

I disagree, but then I don't consider any Jewish practices of pagan origin either. Members of the Roman upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25. It was believed that Mithra, an infant god, was born of a rock. For some Romans, Mithra's birthday was the most sacred day of the year.
In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the bible does not mention date for his birth but it's thought to have been in the early spring.

The origin of its name Easter is not clear. Scholars, however, accepting the derivation proposed by the 8th-century English scholar St. Bede, believe it probably comes from Eastre, the Anglo-Saxon name of a Teutonic goddess of spring and fertility, to whom was dedicated a month corresponding to April. Her festival was celebrated on the day of the vernal equinox; traditions associated with the festival survive in the Easter rabbit, a symbol of fertility, and in colored easter eggs, originally painted with bright colors to represent the sunlight of spring, and used in Easter-egg rolling contests or given as gifts.

[anisavta]

My DIL is a pagan. She can tell you all about the pagan beginnings of Christmas and Easter. She finds it so (sadly) funny how Christians profess "Christ" and yet follow blindly all the pagan festivals without knowing what they really are.

[kivi]

kivi says: Hey, I 'get' the 'there is no GENERALIZED Christianity'. With 1000's of different sects, all fighting over what is the correct theology/church polity/church dogma, it is impossbile to have a GENERALIZED Christianity. But, I also know that I am pretty close when it comes to 'Christianity, in general'. And since I am not going to/can't do a thread on every of the 1000's of different Christian sects, you'll have to deal with 'Christianity, in general'. And, I am always open to the exceptions to the rule. But how far do you take the exceptions to the rule before you are just another 'sect of one', lost amoung all of the other 1,000,000s of 'sects of one' in Christianity. Personally, I believe that all Christianity is a 'sect of one' because each Christian is allowed to interpert the Bible and their traditon for themselves without resort or obligation to anything else but their own relation with their god. Jews do not have that freedom. We are a community with a Tradition and Laws. And if you know anything about how that sort of thing is organized, prescedent is EVERYTHING> You may not like it and that is OK. But it is how we do it. So, we can't have a LAW for each individual, we have to have a Law for the entire Community tha all obey. If the speed limit is 55 mph, when the cop pulls you over, you can't say: "Well, Officer, I talked to the State Representative from my area and he told me that he disagrees with 55 mph on this stretch of highway, so I following his interpertation" and then just drive off. It just does not work that way. Judaism is a communal, national religion. It can not tolerate different laws for different people. One People, One Law, One Nation.

some actually do worry about dress and tattoos. they also do the holiday thing, but unfortunately just the pagan absorbed into christianity holidays. there are lots of "laws" they focus on, just not the same ones as you guys - lol. It's not lacking in these things, just has different applications. Try talking baptism with some christians or the necessity or not of communion. lol.

[HalcyonFire]

but again, you guys do not have the same interpretations/ideas on how to follow your "laws".

[anisavta]

kivi says: Hey, I 'get' the 'there is no GENERALIZED Christianity'. With 1000's of different sects, all fighting over what is the correct theology/church polity/church dogma, it is impossbile to have a GENERALIZED Christianity. But, I also know that I am pretty close when it comes to 'Christianity, in general'. And since I am not going to/can't do a thread on every of the 1000's of different Christian sects, you'll have to deal with 'Christianity, in general'. And, I am always open to the exceptions to the rule. But how far do you take the exceptions to the rule before you are just another 'sect of one', lost amoung all of the other 1,000,000s of 'sects of one' in Christianity. Personally, I believe that all Christianity is a 'sect of one' because each Christian is allowed to interpert the Bible and their traditon for themselves without resort or obligation to anything else but their own relation with their god. Jews do not have that freedom. We are a community with a Tradition and Laws. And if you know anything about how that sort of thing is organized, prescedent is EVERYTHING> You may not like it and that is OK. But it is how we do it. So, we can't have a LAW for each individual, we have to have a Law for the entire Community tha all obey. If the speed limit is 55 mph, when the cop pulls you over, you can't say: "Well, Officer, I talked to the State Representative from my area and he told me that he disagrees with 55 mph on this stretch of highway, so I following his interpertation" and then just drive off. It just does not work that way. Judaism is a communal, national religion. It can not tolerate different laws for different people. One People, One Law, One Nation.

I beg to differ.
There is Ultra Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservatism, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanistic, Flexidox.
There are many sects of Hasidim. Ever read "Boychiks in the Hood"?

In Judaism there may be one law for everyone but I guarantee you every one will have a different interpretation on it and if two Jews are in the car it will take a long time for them to decide which beit to go by to decide if it is indeed 55 mph. And some will even argue that the numerical value of the number 55 may prove that it doesn't even exist.

[kivi]

kivi says: I am very careful when I speak. I only speak out of the experience of the Orthodox/Obsdervant Community. The rest you'll have to figure out for yourself. To be honest, I don't know what the distinction of Ultra is from regular Orthodox. We are all Ultras in comparison to the rest of the US. But, we all eat at each others' tables. We all marry each others' children. If there are differences in country of origin issues [minhag], about how long between eating meat or milk or whether you eat the meat butchered up to or just beyound the 13th rib or how you strap the tefillin straps around your fingers, everybody lets the minhag of their "father's" rule and we don't start sending people of to the 'burning stake' and then on to Hell for the differences in the order of prayer. 99.99999% of the 'real' issues are decided. The on-going journey in Galus and problems of modernity bring up, on occasion, some new ones. And evolving technoloy is always a source for applying old laws to new circumstances. But the type of confusion you are hoping for just does not exist. Sorry.:cool:

I beg to differ.
There is Ultra Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservatism, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanistic, Flexidox.
There are many sects of Hasidim. Ever read "Boychiks in the Hood"?

In Judaism there may be one law for everyone but I guarantee you every one will have a different interpretation on it and if two Jews are in the car it will take a long time for them to decide which beit to go by to decide if it is indeed 55 mph. And some will even argue that the numerical value of the number 55 may prove that it doesn't even exist.

[GerTzedek]

There is no comparison to the subgroups in Judaism to the utter disintegration one sees occurring in Protestant Christianity. Consider the concept of Kashrut. So the Sephardim say Glatt, and the Ashkenazim say Glatt is not necessary. But for the most part, everyone agrees what basic kashrut is. Even the Reform agree what kosher is. Oh, they make think kashrut is not necessary, but if you ask a Reform Jew if a cheeseburger is kosher, they will say, No.

Now lets compare this to a basic tenet of Protestantism. You can't. You can't even find a basic tenet of Protestantism anymore it has so disintigrated. You have mainline protestants that don't accept the authority of scripture. You have protestants that accept the authority of scripture, but only the way they personally interpret it (which tends to be however it personally benefits them -- find me a church where at least half the bachelors under the age of 25 will agree the Bible teaches sex before marriage is wrong.) You can't agree on what a Christian is. You can't agree on what saves. You can't agree on whether baptism is necessary. Some baptise once. Some re-baptise like a carwash every time a person seriously sins. Some respect Catholics as brother Christians. Some think Catholics are Satan-spawn. Some are Trinitarian. Some are Oneness. Some haven't a clue what either of those words mean and don't care anymore. Some go to church, give charitably, pray daily, and study scritures. Some do none of that! And my ALL TIME FAVORITE -- you don't have to believe in anything but JC! Who knows what that means. It certainly means nothing of value. It means that Protestantism is now united by nothingness. Have fun.

[ShirChadash]

Ger I think you are a closet Catholic ^_^

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

There is no comparison to the subgroups in Judaism to the utter disintegration one sees occurring in Protestant Christianity. Consider the concept of Kashrut. So the Sephardim say Glatt, and the Ashkenazim say Glatt is not necessary. But for the most part, everyone agrees what basic kashrut is. Even the Reform agree what kosher is. Oh, they make think kashrut is not necessary, but if you ask a Reform Jew if a cheeseburger is kosher, they will say, No.

Now lets compare this to a basic tenet of Protestantism. You can't. You can't even find a basic tenet of Protestantism anymore it has so disintigrated. You have mainline protestants that don't accept the authority of scripture. You have protestants that accept the authority of scripture, but only the way they personally interpret it (which tends to be however it personally benefits them -- find me a church where at least half the bachelors under the age of 25 will agree the Bible teaches sex before marriage is wrong.) You can't agree on what a Christian is. You can't agree on what saves. You can't agree on whether baptism is necessary. Some baptise once. Some re-baptise like a carwash every time a person seriously sins. Some respect Catholics as brother Christians. Some think Catholics are Satan-spawn. Some are Trinitarian. Some are Oneness. Some haven't a clue what either of those words mean and don't care anymore. Some go to church, give charitably, pray daily, and study scritures. Some do none of that! And my ALL TIME FAVORITE -- you don't have to believe in anything but JC! Who knows what that means. It certainly means nothing of value. It means that Protestantism is now united by nothingness. Have fun. True Christians are always seeking the truth. Like I have said before, secret societies keep taking control of the churches, or are founded by them. This helps keep Christians from being unified. If the Christians were unified they would lose control. The Orthodox also have them. But at least you are more unified. In America there are about 500 different secret societies. Hows that for division. If you think I am a fruit loop, then perhaps you should study that issue. Like I said before, the Judaeo Christians were wiped out by the Pagans. The sheep were devoured until their bones fell to the ground. The Hellenistic Jews also played a part in devouring the sheep. And so you find fault, have the Orthodox looked at their own faults lately?

[GerTzedek]

Closet Catholic? Nah. That door is closed forever. It surprises even me that I have absolutely no desire to re-enter a church. I had no nostalgia at Chrstmas. I remember going to the library on Sunday and sitting there confused when it was closed. It took me a good ten minutes to figure out it must be Easter.

But there is a mindset suspicious of religious authority that undermines protestant thinking. I know because I inherited it growing up, and I confess it caused me problems in my own life. You know how they say no one is worse about smoking than an ex-smoker, eh? I may be smart and educated, but I learned the hard way that I cannot trust myself. Anyhow, you take the anti-authority bent, and mix it with the anti-intellectualism bent they pick up from the general culture, and it can at times make for a really horrifying narcissitic superficiality. I just have no respect for it. There are INDIVIDUALS within Protestantism, exceptions to the generalization, whom I respect.

So I guess my current feelings can be summed up as follows:

Catholicism: indifference*
Protestantism: mild disgust*

*In both cases, my feelings alter quite considerably when discussing the relationship of the Church to the Jews. Supersessionism and anti-Semitism have always been my hotbutton issues, not just now, but even during my past life as a Chrstian.

I think I tend to harass the Protestants more because basically that is who we have here in the forum. If Catholics came in here, I'd probably pester them more about increasing the usage of the modified Tridentine Good Friday prayer for the conversion of the Jews, and the inconsistancy between the Novus Ordo prayer for Jews to come into a fuller observance of Covanant and assimilation of Catholic Jews into gentile living. I'd throw out some of Cardinal Kasper's statements and ask them why they are backtracking. I'd ask them why they are so hot to invite anti-semitic bishops from SSPX back into the fold. Stuff like that.

[GerTzedek]

MTAA:

I would never use the expression "fruit loop" except when cheating on my diet. :D But do I think you have an unhealthy obsession with secret societies? Yes, I do.

[Mikeb85]

I disagree, but then I don't consider any Jewish practices of pagan origin either. Members of the Roman upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25. It was believed that Mithra, an infant god, was born of a rock. For some Romans, Mithra's birthday was the most sacred day of the year.
In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the bible does not mention date for his birth but it's thought to have been in the early spring.

The origin of its name Easter is not clear. Scholars, however, accepting the derivation proposed by the 8th-century English scholar St. Bede, believe it probably comes from Eastre, the Anglo-Saxon name of a Teutonic goddess of spring and fertility, to whom was dedicated a month corresponding to April. Her festival was celebrated on the day of the vernal equinox; traditions associated with the festival survive in the Easter rabbit, a symbol of fertility, and in colored easter eggs, originally painted with bright colors to represent the sunlight of spring, and used in Easter-egg rolling contests or given as gifts.

First of all, we can all guess at dates chosen to celebrate the Nativity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. But many pagan holidays occur at similar times of year to Christian and Jewish ones. You have to look at the focus, the emphasis. There is absolutely nothing pagan about celebrating the Nativity.

As for where the word Easter comes from, it doesn't matter. English is the only language to use that word to describe the day of the Resurrection. In the languages of most countries that are Orthodox, they use transliterations of the word Pascha (from Pesach, Passover). English-speaking Orthodox use Pascha. Even in Catholic France, the word is Pâques. This is a non-issue. As for eggs, they represent rebirth. This is a universal concept, and certainly fits with the concept of the resurrection.

Anyhow, short on time. I could certainly draw out dozens and dozens of similarities between both Christianity and Judaism compared to pagan religions, but that doesn't mean that Judaism and Christianity are pagan.

[HalcyonFire]

Go to south america and see what the christian church practices there to honor mary and tell me they don't incorporate pagan practices to bring in the pagans.

[Mikeb85]

Go to south america and see what the christian church practices there to honor mary and tell me they don't incorporate pagan practices to bring in the pagans.

Well, our church does consider the Roman Catholic church to have split from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic (Orthodox) Church and fallen into heresy...

Theres alot of denominations which have some strange beliefs, and unfortunately in today's society they're all called Christian so it creates some confusion...

[anisavta]

And there lies the rub. The "Holy Christian Church" is so fragmented with so many people doing their own thing that our rabbinic Jewish friends just roll their eyes and are convinced it is about as holy as swiss cheese.
Until Christians match up their doctrines with G~d's Word alone (and until Jews match up their doctrines with G~d's Word alone) religion will continue to just be man's attempt to find G~d.
And there are Christians and Jews who do only use the Holy Writings. They are out there but unfortunatly it's the Christians who are barking like dogs and Jews who are firebombing Messianic Communities that get the attention.

[ShirChadash]

Go to south america and see what the christian church practices there to honor mary and tell me they don't incorporate pagan practices to bring in the pagans.tru dat. Of course, that is just the tip of a very large iceberg.

[HalcyonFire]

right

we've been led astray by the agendas of men... far astray from what is and is not truth

[Talmidah]

They are out there but unfortunatly it's the Christians who are barking like dogs and Jews who are firebombing Messianic Communities that get the attention.



Awwww how sweet! :tutu:

[LittleLambofJesus]

And there lies the rub. The "Holy Christian Church" is so fragmented with so many people doing their own thing that our rabbinic Jewish friends just roll their eyes and are convinced it is about as holy as swiss cheese.
Until Christians match up their doctrines with G~d's Word alone (and until Jews match up their doctrines with G~d's Word alone) religion will continue to just be man's attempt to find G~d.
And there are Christians and Jews who do only use the Holy Writings. They are out there but unfortunatly it's the Christians who are barking like dogs and Jews who are firebombing Messianic Communities that get the attention.Hmm, not very nice.

Speaking of dogs btw, , any Messianics here have any idea what the dogs are symbolizing in that Covenantle parable in Luke 16?
Are they the ones of the "rich man" or others like Lazarus. Thanks. :wave:

Isaiah 56:11 And the dogs, strong ones of soul, not they know satisfaction, and they ones being shepherds not they know to understand of, all of them way of them, they face man to gain of him from end of him.

Luke 16:21 And yearning to be satisfied from the crumbs, of the ones-falling from the Table of the rich-one; but also the dogs coming licked his sores

[ShirChadash]

not to mention prejudicial, premature, and libellous. with sugar on top.

[Talmidah]

Yeah. Not to mention.

[ShirChadash]

They are out there but unfortunatly it's the Christians who are barking like dogs and Jews who are firebombing Messianic Communities that get the attention.


Well then, maybe we need to correct who it is who is "getting the attention". The Messianics could maybe do with their fair share, huh?

http://jchannel.blogspot.com/2008/03/messianic-missionary-eddie-beckford.html

You know, what did I expect from people who want to be able to freely smear Jews with no reply back. I don't know why I ever thought this place could be useful for genuine dialogue... I am wasting time here, I guess.

[simchat_torah]

I don't know why I ever thought this place could be useful for genuine dialogue... I am wasting time here, I guess.Yes. You are.

[HalcyonFire]

better yet, let's throw out all the labels and the nastiness that is coming with them and just be people who allow other people to believe as they feel led to do

[ShirChadash]

That would be SUCH an awfully good start. But I don't believe that can be done by an awful lot of folks. Because they just HAZ to be RIGHT!!!

[Talmidah]

Well then, maybe we need to correct who it is who is "getting the attention". The Messianics could maybe do with their fair share, huh?

http://jchannel.blogspot.com/2008/03/messianic-missionary-eddie-beckford.html

You know, what did I expect from people who want to be able to freely smear Jews with no reply back. I don't know why I ever thought this place could be useful for genuine dialogue... I am wasting time here, I guess.

Oh come now....A messianic would NEVER do anything like that!

Except that he was arraigned, found guilty, and sentenced for his own violent acts.

But hey at least he wasn't barking like the Chrstians (http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47591636&postcount=48) or firebombing like the Jews (http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47591636&postcount=48) seem to be doing these days.

[HalcyonFire]

That would be SUCH an awfully good start. But I don't believe that can be done by an awful lot of folks. Because they just HAZ to be RIGHT!!!
you just said i WUZ right ^_^

[ShirChadash]

Well YOU IZ. But doez you HAZ to be?:P

[anisavta]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_1.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxmk788OGUS) Gooooood Griiiiiieeeeeeffff!
Is all you hear blah blah blah blah Jews blah blah blah bombing blah blah blah...???
For those who are so thin skinned and ready to argue at anything. My point was MOST Christians and MOST Jews do get it right but it is the few who create the labels for the majority. Or for the Christians who read this and the Jews who read this... maybe barking and bombing sounds good to you? Maybe we can start a new religion - the barking bombers?????





http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb098&pp=ZNxmk788OGUS (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb098_ZNxmk788OGUS&utm_id=7926)

[ShirChadash]

You show me ONE
-- just ONE -- verified account and arrest/trial/incarceration -- JUST ONE -- of any Jew bombing MJS IN ISRAEL. SHOW ME. You want to run around making these accusations and to the best of my knowledge they aren't even REAL!

But a MJ attacks and brutalizes orthodox Jews, and tries to run them down with his vehicle -- does anyone mention it? At all? Anywhere?

[ShirChadash]

My point is this -- you think I am thin-skinned (lol) but you want to freely be able to throw out the "Orthodox Jews are busy bombing MJs" card at will without any proof whatsoever, and I am tired of seeing that sort of tripe. Yep, my problem. So I will stop wasting time here and make my way out, finally.

[HalcyonFire]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25306012/

I think this is likely what is being referred to. It's speculation at best in this specific situation (the bombing thing) but the burning of literature is stated like fact. Who knows. It really doesn't matter.

Everyone knows that among any group there are bad apples. Name any kind of group and I'll show you a hypocrite among them guilty of some pretty nasty stuff. Just because you have an open sore does not mean the whole body is riddled with infection.

[ShirChadash]

I'm thinking it is more likely this issue:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7113526


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25306012/

I think this is likely what is being referred to. It's speculation at best in this specific situation (the bombing thing) but the burning of literature is stated like fact. Who knows. It really doesn't matter.

Everyone knows that among any group there are bad apples. Name any kind of group and I'll show you a hypocrite among them guilty of some pretty nasty stuff. Just because you have an open sore does not mean the whole body is riddled with infection.

[HalcyonFire]

either way, my comment on bad apples still stands

[anisavta]

either way, my comment on bad apples still stands

Amen and amen!!!!

Shir it's your turn to prove the Messianic Jew running over an Orthodox. You can't throw a stone and then run.

[Talmidah]

seems pretty obvious from the video

[Qalevra]

The attack (http://jchannel.blogspot.com/2008/03/messianic-missionary-eddie-beckford.html)

The Christian/messianic article claiming innocence (http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=25172)

It's because of things like this that I expressed so strongly in the other thread that I don't want to see messianics in Israel. Where can a Jew live in peace then?

[ShirChadash]

Well then, maybe we need to correct who it is who is "getting the attention". The Messianics could maybe do with their fair share, huh?

http://jchannel.blogspot.com/2008/03/messianic-missionary-eddie-beckford.html

You know, what did I expect from people who want to be able to freely smear Jews with no reply back. I don't know why I ever thought this place could be useful for genuine dialogue... I am wasting time here, I guess.

PRoVIDED YOu DOn'T REPOrT iT
and get it removed, it's right there in the video, see it for yourself.

[anisavta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EII5Km3jN3U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J7iqMO4EaQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqMDi9V9qNU

The choice is yours as to whether you watch these or not.

[ShirChadash]

I suppose now you are going to try and claim the video is falsified or something else.

I'll watch your vids if you dare watch all of the one I posted.

*shrug* so now, people yelling "missionary" or names at you is the same thing as trying to run you down with a vehicle, trashing your camera, punching you and tearing your clothing? Man, you folks are sure persecuted. How dare those Jews point out that you are missionaries, yell over you, and just generally make your lives uhm... hell. Or something. Awful huh.:o

I'm still waiting for YOU to offer proof that any Orthodox Jew has "bombed MJs". Oh. Hm. You asked for proof, I gave it and so did others on this thread. Eddie Beckford brutalized and chased Orthodox Jews with his vehicle, wearing a "J*sus loves you" shirt to boot. He was arrested. hello. This is no concocted story. You on the other hand lob accusations with no arrest, no trial, no conviction, no names or faces or videos to show.

[Talmidah]

How sad for religious Jews to have to put up with such abomination right in the holy land. :(

[ShirChadash]

talk about needing a safe haven and finding none...
How sad for religious Jews to have to put up with such abomination right in the holy land. :(

[Talmidah]

Taken directly from the 3rd video:

They refer to the Orthodox Jews here, the ultra Orthodox Jews, the ones you see dressed in black with beards, they refer to them as datim. They started the Sanhedrin again and they have set up a king. So they are hoping to establish a kingship over Israel again. And they call themselves the pharisees, the ones that we're contending with.

[ShirChadash]

Taken directly from the 3rd video:
hm
a king.

okay then. Perhaps someone here could direct them to the tinfoil kippa shop there in Israel.

[simchat_torah]

what the....

[anisavta]

Slow down Shir and take the venom out of your posts. I'm afraid if we were speaking face to face by your reply I would worry about my own safety.
Granted Eddie was at fault at coming at this man. However if you would have watched the other videos that prompted his outburst you would have gotten the full picture. He had been harrassed and harrassed by this group day after day. They disrupted his meetings and harrassed not just him but the elderly that came for the chess club. Did you watch my videos? Did you hear on all of them how not just he but his neighbors are tired of the violence this group does? That he watched them torch his place with people in it?
No Shir no one should be attacking anyone. Put yourself in the Messianic Community's shoes for one small minute. Have you ever been threatened? Have you had your children threatened? Have you had someone stand outside your place of business, or home or synagogue with a bullhorn shouting obsenities at you for hours? Could you stand up against that kind of pressure day after day. And what you are doing is feeding and clothing homeless and poor in your community. For this you get threatened and shouted at day after day?
Frankly I am ashamed at this group of bullies. They may be Jews by birth. But they are not the light to the nations.

[Talmidah]

hm
a king.

okay then. Perhaps someone here could direct them to the tinfoil kippa shop there in Israel.

Shouldn't be too hard to find...

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m80/Talmidah/CF/windowslivewriterkippacontralasabdu.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m80/Talmidah/CF/tinfoilkippa.jpg


But now that they've informed us that the black clothed and bearded people have set a king, we know that we can believe 100% of what they say! :clap:

[Talmidah]

The ones you should be ashamed of are the ones trying to steal Jewish souls.

[ShirChadash]

Slow down Shir and take the venom out of your posts. I'm afraid if we were speaking face to face by your reply I would worry about my own safety. oh come on. Thin skin indeed. You can't take a few upset words on a message board at face-value? good grief.


Granted Eddie was at fault at coming at this man. However if you would have watched the other videos that prompted his outburst you would have gotten the full picture. I DID.


He had been harrassed and harrassed by this group day after day. They disrupted his meetings and harrassed not just him but the elderly that came for the chess club. Did you watch my videos? Did you hear on all of them how not just he but his neighbors are tired of the violence this group does? That he watched them torch his place with people in it?
No Shir no one should be attacking anyone. Put yourself in the Messianic Community's shoes for one small minute. Have you ever been threatened? Have you had your children threatened? Have you had someone stand outside your place of business, or home or synagogue with a bullhorn shouting obsenities at you for hours? are you kidding me?!

And Why don't you put yourself in the shoes of the Orthodox Jews there? Oh my gosh, I am just stunned at you, who run about saying how much you need and deserve (and you do, make no bones about it) a "safe haven" even from people HERE challenging your faith and beliefs etc., because it is upsetting, but the Orthodox RIGHT THERE in Isra'el herself are not given a safe haven in their own borders from people who push their agenda, their materials and bibles and pamphlets, on any and everyone in their orthodox Jewish neighborhoods. And the Jews are at fault for daring to HOLLER that people are MISSIONARIES? For saying NO -- WE DON'T want you here!? I am just amazed...


Could you stand up against that kind of pressure day after day. And what you are doing is feeding and clothing homeless and poor in your community. For this you get threatened and shouted at day after day?And you think that is all they are doing. This shows me you do not understand the Jewish position at all.

[Talmidah]

You know, I have my own issues with some hareidi segments, but in this, they are doing what is proper....how many times did Hashem command that idolaters be thrown out and their 'high places' destroyed. Its too bad not many today have the guts to do that these days.

At least these guys are doing something to protect our people and land!

[ShirChadash]

You know, I have my own issues with some hareidi segments, but in this, they are doing what is proper....how many times did Hashem command that idolaters be thrown out and their 'high places' destroyed. Its too bad not many today have the guts to do that these days.

At least these guys are doing something to protect our people and land!

I can only say amen. And amen. and amen.

[Talmidah]

And Why don't you put yourself in the shoes of the Orthodox Jews there? Oh my gosh, I am just stunned at you, who run about saying how much you need and deserve (and you do, make no bones about it) a "safe haven" even from people HERE challenging your faith and beliefs etc., because it is upsetting, but the Orthodox RIGHT THERE in Isra'el herself are not given a safe haven in their own borders from people who push their agenda, their materials and bibles and pamphlets, on any and everyone in their orthodox Jewish neighborhoods. And the Jews are at fault for daring to HOLLER that people are MISSIONARIES? For saying NO -- WE DON'T want you here!? I am just amazed...

QFT

How dare these people, in the JEWISH HOMELAND, go around doing their little missionizing and then cry about it when Jews actively resist, as they should! :doh:

[anisavta]

So I guess we might see each other in Arad sometime.
Just be gentle when you threaten me ok? Oh and stealing Jewish souls? So you're saying the Jews in Israel are stupid and allow someone to steal what only belongs to HaShem anyway? Interesting.
Hope you'll be comfortable in the Negev wearing your black attire, staying home having lots of kids.
Shalom!

[ShirChadash]

So I guess we might see each other in Arad sometime.
Just be gentle when you threaten me ok? Oh and stealing Jewish souls? So you're saying the Jews in Israel are stupid and allow someone to steal what only belongs to HaShem anyway? Interesting.
Hope you'll be comfortable in the Negev wearing your black attire, staying home having lots of kids.
Shalom!

what's that? hey -- you just be sure not to leave skid marks on my back when you run me down with your vehicle, so it's hard to prove your guilt, mmkay?

[visionary]

Common curtesies need to be used by both sides. Mustard seeds...missionaries need to remember to plant mustard seeds not throw avocado seeds at the neighbours.

[Talmidah]

No. Missionaries need to leave Jews alone.

[GerTzedek]

So I guess we might see each other in Arad sometime.
Just be gentle when you threaten me ok? Oh and stealing Jewish souls? So you're saying the Jews in Israel are stupid and allow someone to steal what only belongs to HaShem anyway? Interesting.
Hope you'll be comfortable in the Negev wearing your black attire, staying home having lots of kids.
Shalom!Oh just stop it. This whole conversation has degraded into nothing but a screaming contest. I'm embarassed to be here. Can everyone take a deep breath and return to discussing issues?

[Kris10leigh]

Ok...so my friend says Judaism is man-made...:sorry: and I feel that Christianity is too...:sorry:...and we're all just trying to get a wee bit closer to God...

Isn't that what this thread is about? :wave:

[Qalevra]

So I guess we might see each other in Arad sometime.

Perhaps

Just be gentle when you threaten me ok?

Don't worry, I won't. I know you'll be on that plane back to the states before long.

Oh and stealing Jewish souls?

That's the game, isn't it?

So you're saying the Jews in Israel are stupid and allow someone to steal what only belongs to HaShem anyway? Interesting.

Well, you're twisting things, but that's not TOO shocking. But, yes, you missionary types try to prey on those who are less well-read and hence unable to defend themselves, like Ethiopian olim, for example. But they're not stupid as you say, not by a long stretch.

Hope you'll be comfortable in the Negev wearing your black attire, staying home having lots of kids.

We don't have to be Orthodox of Haredi to see through your games. The good news is that Jews of all stripes are allowed in Israel; all over the country, in fact. And we can only hope that Christians masquerading as Jews will be continually denied citizenship in our country to keep it that way.

Shalom!

You don't mean that.

[anisavta]

So you know me? Nope. I'm not hell fire bent on destruction so yes I mean shalom.
Not too fond of the Negev but I have no problem living in other areas of Israel. You really have no idea who I am. Too bad.

[Kris10leigh]

Not to be obnoxious but...


Ok...so my friend says Judaism is man-made...:sorry: and I feel that Christianity is too...:sorry:...and we're all just trying to get a wee bit closer to God...

Isn't that what this thread is about? :wave:

[Qalevra]

So you know me? Nope. I'm not hell fire bent on destruction so yes I mean shalom.
Not too fond of the Negev but I have no problem living in other areas of Israel. You really have no idea who I am. Too bad.

You're right. I don't know you. I can only know what it is that you reveal here on these forums.

You've revealed that you will have difficult obtaining "proper documentation" to make aliyah, which tells me that your options for living in Israel as a citizen are about nil.

You've revealed in that last post a disdain for the Orthodox.

Hope you'll be comfortable in the Negev wearing your black attire, staying home having lots of kids.You've revealed that in a fight between Jews and Christians, you will side with the Christians by siding with Eddie Beckford.

You've revealed in that last post that you see yourself apart from Judaism, because if you move to Israel, you will see normative Jews as a threat.

Just be gentle when you threaten me ok?Does this paint your total picture? Nope. I'm sure you have a rich tapestry of personality and experience that makes you unique. But the picture I see here is that of a Christian, with Jewish background, who wants to be a part of the Jewish people, but can't let go of Jesus, and lashes out at us for our beliefs and our willingness to stand up for them, and willingness to stand against people who want to be a part of Judaism, but can't let go of Jesus first. I see someone who sees injustice in the fact that Jews, as has been commanded of us for thousands of years, will fight the spread of foreign religion on our soil. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think I am.

[Kris10leigh]

:doh::doh::confused::doh::doh:

[Qalevra]

Not to be obnoxious but...

No worries. I apologize for my part in any thread derailment. I hope you appreciate that I will always stand in defence of my fellow Jew.

As for the man-made nature of religion; it would be silly to say that humans have no role in the shaping of our observance, but the inciting incidents that have brought our faith to where it is today are not from man.

[ShirChadash]

You don't mean that.
good point.

"I hate you! Shalom!"
:sorry:

[ShirChadash]

Oh just stop it. This whole conversation has degraded into nothing but a screaming contest. I'm embarassed to be here. Can everyone take a deep breath and return to discussing issues?
Thank you, Ger, for being the voice of calm. I'm trying.

[Kris10leigh]

No worries. I apologize for my part in any thread derailment. I hope you appreciate that I will always stand in defence of my fellow Jew.
Oh trust me, I understand. I guess I'm just feeling like we are so lucky to have this place over here where everyone can be honest, but we're all being SO honest I'm afraid we might wear out our welcome. :o And every post I've started here so far has turned into a heated battle. (Can be fun..but...well...^_^)

As for the man-made nature of religion; it would be silly to say that humans have no role in the shaping of our observance, but the inciting incidents that have brought our faith to where it is today are not from man.
I find religion in general absolutely fascinating. Because the very nature of religion is man-made I find it amusing that so many are bold enough to say "I'm right! It's my way or no way." Or that "I have the TRUTH." Well, whose truth? Yours? Because I'm pretty sure it isn't God's.

[GerTzedek]

We pause momentarily for a word from our Sponser.


Tehilim (Psalm) 121
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fNpErJ_C5k

1 A Song of Ascents. I will lift up mine eyes unto the mountains: from whence shall my help come?
2 My help cometh from HaShem, who made heaven and earth.
3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved; He that keepeth thee will not slumber.
4 Behold, He that keepeth Israel doth neither slumber nor sleep.
5 HaShem is thy keeper; HaShem is thy shade upon thy right hand.
6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.
7 HaShem shall keep thee from all evil; He shall keep thy soul.
8 HaShem shall guard thy going out and thy coming in, from this time forth and for ever.

[Lulav]

Ok...so my friend says Judaism is man-made...:sorry: and I feel that Christianity is too...:sorry:...and we're all just trying to get a wee bit closer to God...

Isn't that what this thread is about? :wave:

what I'd like to know is just how many of the 'Jews' here in this thread ( I know according to Rabbinic Halakah you aren't to ask, but I don't follow that so........:sorry:) How many are blood born Jews? You know, your Momma was Jewish at least ?? and you were never a Christian/Messainic?

[ShirChadash]

what I'd like to know is just how many of the 'Jews' here in this thread ( I know according to Rabbinic Halakah you aren't to ask, but I don't follow that so........:sorry:) How many are blood born Jews? You know, your Momma was Jewish at least ?? and you were never a Christian/Messainic?Okay, let's start with you. Yay or nay?

[Qalevra]

Right here. Born, raised, and still Jewish. What's your point?

[HalcyonFire]

watch out... I think I see where this is going
http://www.newsinferno.com/wp-includes/images/Train-Derail-3.jpg

you guys are going to give me a complex. i do my best to make peace and it's like... am I talking to myself? maybe I'm imaging this whole conversation.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/cgo/lowres/cgon351l.jpg

[simchat_torah]

hat I'd like to know is just how many of the 'Jews' here in this thread ( I know according to Rabbinic Halakah you aren't to ask, but I don't follow that so........:sorry:) How many are blood born Jews? You know, your Momma was Jewish at least ?? and you were never a Christian/Messainic?http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/its-a-trap.jpg

[simchat_torah]

For the record, I'm Jewish on both sides of my family, though neither side is observant anymore. It died out with my grandparents and my greatgrandparents.

[ShirChadash]

Hello -- Lulav?

[kivi]

kivi says: Here we go with the secret societies: My eyes roll over

True Christians are always seeking the truth. Like I have said before, secret societies keep taking control of the churches, or are founded by them. This helps keep Christians from being unified. If the Christians were unified they would lose control. The Orthodox also have them. But at least you are more unified. In America there are about 500 different secret societies. Hows that for division. If you think I am a fruit loop, then perhaps you should study that issue. Like I said before, the Judaeo Christians were wiped out by the Pagans. The sheep were devoured until their bones fell to the ground. The Hellenistic Jews also played a part in devouring the sheep. And so you find fault, have the Orthodox looked at their own faults lately?

[Talmidah]

True Christians are always seeking the truth. Like I have said before, secret societies keep taking control of the churches, or are founded by them. This helps keep Christians from being unified. If the Christians were unified they would lose control. The Orthodox also have them. But at least you are more unified. In America there are about 500 different secret societies. Hows that for division. If you think I am a fruit loop, then perhaps you should study that issue. Like I said before, the Judaeo Christians were wiped out by the Pagans. The sheep were devoured until their bones fell to the ground. The Hellenistic Jews also played a part in devouring the sheep. And so you find fault, have the Orthodox looked at their own faults lately?


To quote a very wise man,

Because we are all part of one [the Protocals of the Elders of Zion, Inc:cool:] [creepy organ music starts to swell^_^] and we meet each Thursday night above Wienstein's Resturant on Murray Ave for lox and pickled herrings and serious plotting [shadowing scenes of Jews wth long noses and buck teeth^_^] and the more we claim the secret societies like the 'Bush White House:crossrc:' and the 'Monday-nite MahJong Woman's League to Conquore the World and Make Their Husbands Take Them Out Every Sunday Evening to a Real Good Nightclub, Limited':bow: don't exist, the more you'll believe us [confused gentile asking for directions from an obvious sinister Jew:holy:]. Its all just a vast conspiracy, over the centuries, to control the world under a ONE World Government lead by the anti christ that will take your guns:amen: away and put a computer chip:amen: in your forehead. [major drum roll and a lot of marching band music followed by pictures of tank and bombers attacking long lines of refugees pushing Vons shopping carts over the dirt roads of downtown San Fransico and Oakland CA; more scenes of evil police breaking into people's houses, smashing their furniture and taking their guns fading to a scene of a man strapped to an operating table with sweaty medical type people in long lab coats preparing for an operation.] Finished:groupray:

[kivi]

kivi says: We are in Galus. There is no place like what you are seeking until Moshiach Comes.


The attack (http://jchannel.blogspot.com/2008/03/messianic-missionary-eddie-beckford.html)

The Christian/messianic article claiming innocence (http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=25172)

It's because of things like this that I expressed so strongly in the other thread that I don't want to see messianics in Israel. Where can a Jew live in peace then?

[ChazakEmunah]

~snipped for brevity
it's the Christians who are barking like dogs and Jews who are firebombing Messianic Communities that get the attention.
Wow, where was I when that happened? Did I miss the memo about the TPS reports? Oh wait, you're talking about the xtian kid in Ariel, Israel right? Don't you know that Islamic Jihad has already claimed responsibility for the attack, and that several fatwas were issued against the family for their attempts to convert Muslims to xtianity? Please get your facts straight before you go making wild accusations.

[ShirChadash]

Wow, where was I when that happened? Did I miss the memo about the TPS reports? Oh wait, you're talking about the xtian kid in Ariel, Israel right? Don't you know that Islamic Jihad has already claimed responsibility for the attack, and that several fatwas were issued against the family for their attempts to convert Muslims to xtianity? Please get your facts straight before you go making wild accusations.
ehn some of us told her. Here: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7113526
All throughout that thread. She'd prefer to just throw around unfounded accusations.

[ChazakEmunah]

Taken directly from the 3rd video:

They refer to the Orthodox Jews here, the ultra Orthodox Jews, the ones you see dressed in black with beards, they refer to them as datim. They started the Sanhedrin again and they have set up a king. So they are hoping to establish a kingship over Israel again. And they call themselves the pharisees, the ones that we're contending with.

This alone tells me this guy "Eddie" is extremely ignorant of Judaism.

First problem: Jews who dress in black are either Haredim or Chasidim. Datim don't dress in black and wear knitted kippot. They're typically called "National Religious."

Second problem: The Beit Din haGadol currently has no authority other than that of a normal Beit Din. There are still secular courts, therefore we don't have a fully functioning "Sanhedrin."

Third problem: We do not have a King.... Yet. Bezrat HaShem, Mashiach will come soon and sit on the throne of Israel.

Fourth problem: Who goes around calling themselves a Pharisee these days? Really... That's just silly.

[Talmidah]

This alone tells me this guy "Eddie" is extremely ignorant of Judaism. Yeah...so....when has that stopped them?

[ChazakEmunah]

No. Missionaries need to leave Jews alone.
Hey, I got an idea... Maybe we should start being missionaries again and target xtians for conversion to Judaism. :)

[HalcyonFire]

http://www.jackmcmahon.com/Images/Band%20Pics/monkey-cymbals-drums.jpg

[ChazakEmunah]

what I'd like to know is just how many of the 'Jews' here in this thread ( I know according to Rabbinic Halakah you aren't to ask, but I don't follow that so........:sorry:) How many are blood born Jews? You know, your Momma was Jewish at least ?? and you were never a Christian/Messainic?
You know better than to ask that question. Shame on you.

[Talmidah]

what I'd like to know is just how many of the 'Jews' here in this thread ( I know according to Rabbinic Halakah you aren't to ask, but I don't follow that so........:sorry:) How many are blood born Jews? You know, your Momma was Jewish at least ?? and you were never a Christian/Messainic?You know better than to ask that question. Shame on you.



Hey CE, she just told why she did it. It sure is nice to know that she respects those of us who do follow proper Jewish halacha! :thumbsup:

[ShirChadash]

What I can't gather is... she says 1) she doesn't follow Rabbinic halacha so she can ask her question... and 2) her question is directly related to Rabbinic halacha -- which she doesn't esteem. :doh:

You know better than to ask that question. Shame on you.

[ChazakEmunah]

Hey CE, she just told why she did it. It sure is nice to know that she respects those of us who do follow proper Jewish halacha! :thumbsup:
It doesn't matter. The fact is that she knows better.

[Talmidah]

What I can't gather is... she says 1) she doesn't follow Rabbinic halacha so she can ask her question... and 2) her question is directly related to Rabbinic halacha -- which she doesn't esteem. :doh:


:ebil:

[HalcyonFire]

http://www.wormbook.addr.com/048098.jpg

[cyberlizard]

i just don't get it..... you would think that after all the ways jews have been mistreated, they would be happy to at least exist in truce with people not against them.

but that aside, the message Jesus taught was no different really from the message many Jews expound - the message - Repent.... so what exactly is the problem, is it Jesus or his later disciples.


Steve

[HalcyonFire]

it's psycho christians who in the past said "you're a heathen" and the reprecussions of that I'm sure. what IS is very hard at times to distinguish from what WAS... and that goes for both sides.

[kivi]

i just don't get it..... you would think that after all the ways jews have been mistreated, they would be happy to at least exist in truce with people not against them.

but that aside, the message Jesus taught was no different really from the message many Jews expound - the message - Repent.... so what exactly is the problem, is it Jesus or his later disciples.


Steve

Dear Steve, the problem is not why we don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. Let's suppose that our reasoning and understanding and emotions are wrong. So what. We would go around mistaken. Who is hurt by that, who is threatened by that, who loses by that? Maybe us. But who else? When did it become someone elses' business about what we do or what we believe. As long as we keep to ourselves, don't mess with anyone else and don't try to infringe on other people's interests and territiory, why not just leave us alone?

BUT, they will not. They track us down. If you want, I'll go through the entire history of Christian persecution of the Jews. But I think you are pretty familar. And all of the horrible stuff they did was driven by their need/compulsion to make us agree with them. To make us Christians. To stop allowing us to be Jews. They would/will not leave us alone. We have the right not to be Christians. Heck, we have the right to not agree with Christians. The more we would/will not submit, the more they did/do horrible things, to the point that the entire world was/is poisoned against us and insane, evil, sick, cruel men took the teachings of Christainity and used it to justify their murder of 6 million of us.

By framing the question the way you do, you set us up. It is as if you say: 'If Jesus was Jewish and pretty much like the Jews, then what's the problem? Why do you, the Jews, keep being stubborn, thick-headed and contary? Why not just go along with it, since you and Jesus are really pretty close in a lot of ideas? Hey, we all want to get along, just give up your issues with Jesus and we all can be friends.' Do you see how you are setting us up? Why isn't Christianity treat as the stubborn, thick-headed disturber of the peace of the world? Why isn't Chirstianity told to 'back off'? Why can't we get a restraining order against Christianity? Why do they keep stalking us?

The problem is that Christianiy/Christians just can't keep their hands off us. They are constantly intruding, invasive, aggressive, busy-bodies, walking around, arrogant in their own self-righteous and insulting to anyone they deem offensive. Currently, because forced conversions, expulsions, baby stealing, persectution, torture and murder are considered bad manners, they don't do that, too much. But, they spend millions and millions each year trying to convert Jews. They invented 'Jews for Jesus' specifically to lead their campaign. They sneak in Missionaries to Israel, smuggle reigions tracts and books and other educational matterial and they specifically target the most vulnerable of Jews to evangelize, all of which is against the national law of Israel. They actively and aggressively try to convert Jews around the world. They set up front organizations, they use identity theft, they train gentiles to pass as Jews to sneak into real Jewish organizations. They mimic real Jewish behavior to bait and switch potential 'marks'. As much as they excuse away their behavior, it is wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

They have pretended to be friends to Israel and when they showed their support and went to all the pro Israel rallies and kicked in a whole lot of money and got their pictures taken with Jewish leaders and we thought they like us, that we finally had friends, they used their public influence to aggressively step-up their under-ground evangelism campaign. They have gotten away with a lot of stuff. If it were not for the Orthodox who have been fighting back, Israel would be awashed with missionaries. I feel sorry about the poor kid that got bombed by the Muslims. But, the fuller truth about his family is that his parents lied through their teeth to trick their way into Israel. And the reason they came to Israel was to act as missionaries and have Israeli citizenship so they couldn't get kicked out. Go to the Jews for Jesus website and see what is planned. The Christian missionaries were not supporting Israel because they loved us, they were doing it so they could convert us. For all of their honeyed words, they are most definitely against us. Stop the missionaries, stop the evangelic assaults, stop the identity theft, stop the bait and switch tactics. Leave us alone. That is all we ask. That Christianity keeps molesting/abusing us is Christianity's problem, not ours.

[cyberlizard]

for kivi,

whow, slow down there.....

i am sure this is not really you, but the post smacks of tarring all disciples of Jesus with the same brush.

i am a gentile.... my position is that if you come to believe Jesus is the messiah (unlikely, but not outside the scope of possibility), I would expect you to keep Torah even more rigorously than ever before. The problem for 'christians' is not Torah per se', but the masses of halakhic regulations piled on top (you know what I mean, the Mishnah and Talmud have so many different viewpoints on interpretation of Torah, Judaism's can and do mean anything.)

I have no intention of stopping anyone being a Jew. Jews are not meant to convert to a religion called 'christianity' as there is really no such religion, just as there is really no religion called 'judaism' there are simply faiths of Jews built on Torah (and subsequent rulings).

You say you feel you're being stalked... why is that?

You make lots of claims about believers constantly intruding, invasive, aggressive, busy-bodies, walking around, arrogant in their own self-righteous and insulting to anyone they deem offensive. Currently, because forced conversions, expulsions, baby stealing, persectution, torture and murder messianic jews may be vociferous, but I seriously doubt thatthe claims of baby stealing and murder cannot be substantiated. In truth they are the same myths used against Jews over the years, and you are now using them on others....

But the shoe could be seen to be on the other foot at times. Who is it that burns down 'churches' but allows the eye-sore to remain on the temple mount. Who is it that stand outside the houses of messianic believers hurling abuse, rocks and insults at children... are these not people who belong to your faith. Who is it that kidnaps people who have come to accept Jesus as Messiah, these also are people from your faith.

You're right though about Jews for Jesus, the organisations a joke, it is christianity with a jewish veneer placed on top.

As to targetting the 'most vulnerable Jews', if a person is in need, that need should be met. Witnessing whilst doing it is not the issue. Stuffing religion down a person's throat only makes it more likely they will vomit. And its true, shoving a religion down a person's throat makes them and me sick. I do not like to see it. HOWEVER, consider this. Suppose YOU were absolutely convinced you had met someone YOU thought to be the Messiah, wouldn't YOU want to tell people? I would expect you would, it would be the natural thing to do.

As to the kid who got bombed, there is no more substantial evidence it was muslims, any more than it was the orthodox brigade. Some say, but a Jew would not do this... I have to say remember who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin, he was killed by someone by the name of Yigal Amir - a fanatical right wing orthodox Jew. So it could have been someone officially from your religion.

You say leave us alone, that is all we want, so why do you frequent these forums, is it because you enjoy argument/debate or is there another motive. I am sure it is not to convert gentiles as judaism takes a dim view on it.


Steve - the christian who expects Jews to become so fanatical about Jesus and Torah that everyone else feels ashamed by the purity of the walk, not through following the commands because they have too but becuase they love to keep them.

[Kris10leigh]

Do you guys all think it's possible to just add the little word "some" before your generalities? "SOME Christians"..."SOME Jews"...etc. I'm starting to get a complex. I don't identify with ANY of the "Christian" generalities you guys are throwing around and I still consider myself to have a foot in that door. I know those Christians are out there but I do not know them because if I did, my husband and I would not choose to associate with them.

[Mikeb85]

Dear Steve, the problem is not why we don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. Let's suppose that our reasoning and understanding and emotions are wrong. So what. We would go around mistaken. Who is hurt by that, who is threatened by that, who loses by that? Maybe us. But who else? When did it become someone elses' business about what we do or what we believe. As long as we keep to ourselves, don't mess with anyone else and don't try to infringe on other people's interests and territiory, why not just leave us alone?

BUT, they will not. They track us down. If you want, I'll go through the entire history of Christian persecution of the Jews. But I think you are pretty familar. And all of the horrible stuff they did was driven by their need/compulsion to make us agree with them. To make us Christians. To stop allowing us to be Jews. They would/will not leave us alone. We have the right not to be Christians. Heck, we have the right to not agree with Christians. The more we would/will not submit, the more they did/do horrible things, to the point that the entire world was/is poisoned against us and insane, evil, sick, cruel men took the teachings of Christainity and used it to justify their murder of 6 million of us.

By framing the question the way you do, you set us up. It is as if you say: 'If Jesus was Jewish and pretty much like the Jews, then what's the problem? Why do you, the Jews, keep being stubborn, thick-headed and contary? Why not just go along with it, since you and Jesus are really pretty close in a lot of ideas? Hey, we all want to get along, just give up your issues with Jesus and we all can be friends.' Do you see how you are setting us up? Why isn't Christianity treat as the stubborn, thick-headed disturber of the peace of the world? Why isn't Chirstianity told to 'back off'? Why can't we get a restraining order against Christianity? Why do they keep stalking us?

The problem is that Christianiy/Christians just can't keep their hands off us. They are constantly intruding, invasive, aggressive, busy-bodies, walking around, arrogant in their own self-righteous and insulting to anyone they deem offensive. Currently, because forced conversions, expulsions, baby stealing, persectution, torture and murder are considered bad manners, they don't do that, too much. But, they spend millions and millions each year trying to convert Jews. They invented 'Jews for Jesus' specifically to lead their campaign. They sneak in Missionaries to Israel, smuggle reigions tracts and books and other educational matterial and they specifically target the most vulnerable of Jews to evangelize, all of which is against the national law of Israel. They actively and aggressively try to convert Jews around the world. They set up front organizations, they use identity theft, they train gentiles to pass as Jews to sneak into real Jewish organizations. They mimic real Jewish behavior to bait and switch potential 'marks'. As much as they excuse away their behavior, it is wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

They have pretended to be friends to Israel and when they showed their support and went to all the pro Israel rallies and kicked in a whole lot of money and got their pictures taken with Jewish leaders and we thought they like us, that we finally had friends, they used their public influence to aggressively step-up their under-ground evangelism campaign. They have gotten away with a lot of stuff. If it were not for the Orthodox who have been fighting back, Israel would be awashed with missionaries. I feel sorry about the poor kid that got bombed by the Muslims. But, the fuller truth about his family is that his parents lied through their teeth to trick their way into Israel. And the reason they came to Israel was to act as missionaries and have Israeli citizenship so they couldn't get kicked out. Go to the Jews for Jesus website and see what is planned. The Christian missionaries were not supporting Israel because they loved us, they were doing it so they could convert us. For all of their honeyed words, they are most definitely against us. Stop the missionaries, stop the evangelic assaults, stop the identity theft, stop the bait and switch tactics. Leave us alone. That is all we ask. That Christianity keeps molesting/abusing us is Christianity's problem, not ours.

Unfortunately, when schisms in the church occur, people start accepting heretical teachings, and stray further and further from the truth they start doing bad things.

Strange doctrines have come into the churches (especially protestant evangelicals) which make them believe they have to convert everyone at any cost. And of course, many fall into un-Christian behaviour along the way. Many people have hijacked Christianity into some sort of tribal religion, and have completely forgotton Jesus' actual teachings. Evangelicals will even target apostolic and Orthodox Christians for conversion, spreading lies to achieve their goals (many Orthodox Christian countries face the same problems as Israel with evangelical missionaries).

As for Christians who act like Jews, that is wrong. We are all commanded to take up our cross, and not hide the fact we're Christians. Even though it's resulted in death for millions of our believers, most recently at the hands of the communists and muslims.

[Torah613]

QFT

How dare these people, in the JEWISH HOMELAND, go around doing their little missionizing and then cry about it when Jews actively resist, as they should! :doh:

Of course we should resist! I would like to note, that we are resisting by buring their idolatrous books (such as the NT and various pamphlets) and not by coercian as many xian groups do.

What we should do is pick these ignorant, antisemitic individuals up and throw them into the mediteranian. Now if someone wants to come over and just do their thing, visit chr*Stian holy sites, follow their own religion, than fine. But how dare you come after our innocent children. Theyre just schocked because for the first time in two thousand years we have the power to respond.

Like I said, I have nothing against chr*stians (or m*slims) following their own respective religions in peace (at least until Moshiach comes in which case all will worship the G-d of Yisrail). However there is no difference between a missionary and a palestinian suicide bomber. No difference whatsoever. Well actually a big difference. Palestinians want to kill Jews. Missionaries want to destroy Judaism.

Of course we must remember that not all Palestinians are suicide bombers and not all chr*stians are missionaries.

[Torah613]

How sad for religious Jews to have to put up with such abomination right in the holy land. :(

I agree completely. What would Eliyahu say today?

Yochanan

[kivi]

kivi resplies: Shabbas is coming in a few minutes, so I'll have to respond after. But in answer to your question: Why am I here? Maybe to meet someone like you and start a real dialog. Care to be part of it? Guten Shabbas, all


for kivi,

whow, slow down there.....

i am sure this is not really you, but the post smacks of tarring all disciples of Jesus with the same brush.

i am a gentile.... my position is that if you come to believe Jesus is the messiah (unlikel