What is the difference between .... [Archive]

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zaksmummy

16th June 2008, 03:19 AM

Ivy

16th June 2008, 09:07 AM

christians who are pro Israel and love Jewish people and christians who chose to become Messianic Gentiles?

We were discussing this at our Erev Shabbat meal on friday and we all recognised that there was a difference but didnt know what it was.

Any view would be gratefully appreciated.

The former usually don't embrace aspects of Jewish lifestyle, such as Feasts (including Shabbat) or keeping kosher, and they usually continue to attend a church as their primary place of worship, as opposed to a Messianic congregation.

When people choose to become Messianic Gentiles, in most cases, they decide to "identify with" the Jewish people by taking on some Jewish practices.

ChavaK

16th June 2008, 09:22 AM

christians who are pro Israel and love Jewish people and christians who chose to become Messianic Gentiles?

Christians who are Zionist and support Jews remain Christians, involved
in their own beliefs and traditions. They do not attempt to imitate a
Jewish life style, and do not believe they need to follow "Old Testament"
Law.

Messianics attempt to copy a Jewish "lifestyle" by following their own
interpretation of Torah law, while trying to copy Jewish customs,
traditions, and beliefs (as much as they can without shedding their
Christian faith, anyway).

Zionist Christian: Plain, ol' Christian
Messianic: Christian trying to combine Judaism and Christianity.

zaksmummy

16th June 2008, 11:34 AM

Going a step further, what is is that draws people from being one to becoming another?

I know this probably sounds daft being as I have embraces Messianic beliefs but have no answer and would really like to understand what makes the difference.

zaksmummy

16th June 2008, 11:36 AM

Christians who are Zionist and support Jews remain Christians, involved
in their own beliefs and traditions. They do not attempt to imitate a
Jewish life style, and do not believe they need to follow "Old Testament"
Law.

Messianics attempt to copy a Jewish "lifestyle" by following their own
interpretation of Torah law, while trying to copy Jewish customs,
traditions, and beliefs (as much as they can without shedding their
Christian faith, anyway).

Zionist Christian: Plain, ol' Christian
Messianic: Christian trying to combine Judaism and Christianity.

As a Jewish person Chavak do you think we are all a bit screwy for combining the two faiths?

You dont have to answer if you really dont want to but I would be interested in your reply.

ChavaK

16th June 2008, 11:39 AM

As a Jewish person Chavak do you think we are all a bit screwy for combining the two faiths?

Well, not "screwy".....just misguided.
The two faiths are not compatible with
each other, and cannot be combined...
:)

kivi

16th June 2008, 02:41 PM

kivi

16th June 2008, 02:52 PM

christians who are pro Israel and love Jewish people and christians who chose to become Messianic Gentiles?

We were discussing this at our Erev Shabbat meal on friday and we all recognised that there was a difference but didnt know what it was.

Any view would be gratefully appreciated.

kivi says: A gentile who truely is 'pro Israel and love[s] the Jewish people' would never support any effort to convert Jews to any foreign religion as defined by Judaism. Any involvement with any conversion efforts automatically puts the gentile in 'an anti Israel and distain of the Jewish people' position.

Kris10leigh

16th June 2008, 02:54 PM

Well, not "screwy".....just misguided.
The two faiths are not compatible with
each other, and cannot be combined...
:)

kivi says: ChavaK has hit the nail on the head. If you are Christian, you don't need Judaism and if you are Jewish you don't need Christianity. The two are mutally exclusive. They have different premises, they have different outcomes, they have different methodologies.

I beg to differ with you both. For me, being a Messianic believer is an attempt at coming as close to the religion I believe Yeshua meant for us to strive for. Yeshua was Jewish. We obviously believe He is the Messiah. I also believe man has made of mess Yeshua's message. What we are left with is Judaism with Yeshua's message.

It's very convoluded, isn't it? ;)

kivi

16th June 2008, 03:15 PM

I beg to differ with you both. For me, being a Messianic believer is an attempt at coming as close to the religion I believe Yeshua meant for us to strive for. Yeshua was Jewish. We obviously believe He is the Messiah. I also believe man has made of mess Yeshua's message. What we are left with is Judaism with Yeshua's message.

It's very convoluded, isn't it? ;)

kivi says: And the 'convoluded' is a good indication of error of your position.

You have several 'convoluded' problems in your statement.

1/ 'man has made a mess of Yeshua's message.' If that is the case, why is the New Testament trusted by Messianics. Isn't it a prime case of were the mess made by men started??
2/ Why does Yeshua have such a central position? What makes him different/special/worthy of taking notice above and seperate from all the other Jewish preachers of the century before the destruction of the 2nd Temple? There is nothing particulary original or compelling about his message and the proof of his commitment, the crucifixtion, is hardly out of the ordinary for 1000's & 1000's of Jews during the Roman occupation.
3/ Being Jewish is hardly a recommendation. There have been a lot of Jewish jerks, criminals, heretics and all around losers [Aaron Rothstein, the fixer of the 1919 World Series and the inventor of the world wide heroin and cocaine trade during the 20s and the mentor of Meyer Landsky, Lucky Luciano and Bugsy Segel, is my favorite]. Aren't we warned NOT to take the opinion of any one person over the Torah True Tradition? Why would we ignore the warning with Jesus Chirst, especially given the previous two points?

zaksmummy

16th June 2008, 03:36 PM

kivi

16th June 2008, 03:58 PM

1/ 'man has made a mess of Yeshua's message.' If that is the case, why is the New Testament trusted by Messianics. Isn't it a prime case of were the mess made by men started??

I think what Kris means is the early church fathers the first to fourth centuries who added, twisted and re-emphasised what Yeshua said and were influenced by Roman and Greek Paganism. I am in the middle of reading a book called "Pagan Christianity" which explores these things and makes for very interesting reading.

kivi says: If that is the case, why does anyone trust the New Testament. Wasn't it controlled, written, edited, re-edited by the very men you are referring to. And if that is the case, how do you know what any one really said since you can't trust the guardians of the generational transmission????

2/ Why does Yeshua have such a central position? What makes him different/special/worthy of taking notice above and separate from all the other Jewish preachers of the century before the destruction of the 2nd Temple? There is nothing particulary original or compelling about his message and the proof of his commitment, the crucifixtion, is hardly out of the ordinary for 1000's & 1000's of Jews during the Roman occupation.

You are right many people of this time period preached the same thing, repent, repent, repent. Obviously from a Christian/Messianic perspective we would say that Yeshua's life fulfils the spring feasts, culminating in being sacrificed on a cross as a sin offering (and as a representation as a Passover lamb).

kivi says: That is hardly true. Since the Pesach korban was not a sin offering, why do you compare it as such? And since Judaims forbids human sacrifice, why do you compare it as such? Your claim just does not fit the facts. Especially since we know that the Romans, as a matter of policy and preventive and collective punishment, crucified Jews on a weekly basis. There is NOTHING special about the Jesus Christ's crucifixtion.

3/ Being Jewish is hardly a recommendation. There have been a lot of Jewish jerks, criminals, heretics and all around losers [Aaron Rothstein, the fixer of the 1919 World Series and the inventor of the world wide heroin and cocaine trade during the 20s and the mentor of Meyer Landsky, Lucky Luciano and Bugsy Segel, is my favorite]. Aren't we warned NOT to take the opinion of any one person over the Torah True Tradition? Why would we ignore the warning with Jesus Chirst, especially given the previous two points?'

For me it isnt about looking at what the people you have mentioned have done and judging them, God calls us to love Jewish people, thats it. He doesnt say love only the good ones - he doesnt, he loves all of them, oh and a gentile or two:)
As a side note I am pleasantly surprised when I find out in the media that a humanitarian person is Jewish - most of the noble prize winners were. You cant judge a race of people just by looking at the bad ones.

kivi says: But the point that was made is that because Jesus Christ is supposed to be Jewish, that gives his message authenticity. And I am arguing against that claim. I'm glad you think well of Jews. That is nice. But why would Jesus Christ being Jewish make his message authentic. Aren't we warned that there will be Jewish 'prophets' who will be frauds and liers? Yes!! And that is why we aren't allowed to use national affiliation as proof of the correctness of a particular message.

GerTzedek

16th June 2008, 04:53 PM

I agree with Ivy and Chava. A Christian can be highly supportive of the Jewish people and of Israel. What sets Messianic gentiles apart is their adopting of Jewish practices, either a little or even a great deal. Why do they do it? That is very good question.

The following is my opinion, since you have asked for opinions. I'm sure my opinion is going to rub some people the wrong way. Well, their opinions have certainly rubbed me the wrong way. I have made the effort to word this as nonoffensively, as kindly, as possible while still answering your question.

I think that for a great many, especially the less observant, it is simply the sensing of the depth of Jewish tradition that is so missing in the protestant churches they have been involved in. I used to discuss this with Stuart, that really the messianic movement has a statistically negligable number from the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions, and that this is very likely because these traditions already have rich liturgies and oral and written law and mystical traditions and a wealth of scholarship to draw upon. But the average protestant comes into a Messianic shul and experiences liturgy for the first time (and without any papacy or prayers to saints, yada yada). They really are quite blind to the idea that they may be helping themselves to things not rightly theirs or that they may be using them irreverently ... they have simply woken up to the fact that they are hungry for something more than what they had, and that they are getting more in MJ.

But this doesn't explain why some gentiles become so much more observant then the average Messianic Jew. Or why so many of them start to think of themselves as "kind of Jewish." What's going on with that?

The very best answer to this question has already been written by Dan Juster in his essay, "Who Am I ? The Question of Gentile Identity" which can be read at http://www.tikkunministries.org/newsletters/dj-dec04.asp. What is interesting is that Juster's essay is primarily a psychologically oriented one. For those uninterested in reading his better scholarship, his reasoning runs as follows: some gentiles have developed a mistaken understanding of Jews as the chosen people; they think it means that Jews have a "higher status." They have developed an inferiority complex. This leads them to misinterpret scriputres and other things to mean that they *should* observe Torah, that they are *part* of Israel, that they are "somehow" Jewish in some way, etc. I have noticed it usually leads them to overtly denigrate the gentile Christian churches for not being Jewish, and to have an unconscious anger at Jews for keeping them out or having what they themselves do not have.

I confess I do not understand their theology in the slightest -- except psychologically as what I call denial.The earliest Christians were all Jews, and practiced their newfound faith within Judaism. Within 150 years, Christianity had become a thoroughly gentile new religion separate from Judaism hostile to Jews and to Jewish law. What a person considers the ideal "early church" can fall anywhere on that very short but very dynamic timeline. These particular messianic gentiles make the gross error of pinpointing the ideal prior to the council at Jerusalem. For reasons I will never, ever understand, they are unable to see that Paul's view's prevailed at that council and that the Judaizing of gentiles was forbidden from that point on. The argument against them is prima facie. However, the fact that they make this mistake doesn't explain WHY they make this mistake. Whatever the reason, it is a very strong, very unconscious motivation for it to so overwhelm the obvious. For that, we return to Dan Juster's idea: they have the mistaken notion that being gentile is second rate, and have an inferiority complex.

Finally, there is the very uncommon but very real existence of the gentile prosylite to Judaism. There are many paths for that person to take back home, but you would be surprised to know how common it is, at least in the USA, for converts to have spent at least some time in MJ. I'll never forget the conversation I had with TheRabbi here on this board asking him why in the world an Orthodox Rabbi would spend time on a messianic board. His response was simply that Messianic Judaism produces far, far more gentile converts to Judaism than Jewish converts to Christianity, and that he wanted to make sure they get their halakhah right. I got this ohhhh so creepy feeling reading that, and thought, 'Oh my gosh, he is here in this forum for me." There is a good friend I left behind in MJ whom I am waiting for--she will never be completely happy there... I expect her to show up any time in conversion classes. There is simply something qualitatively different about certain gentiles that you can just see it coming. Messianic Judaism is, for us, a stepping stone.

GerTzedek

16th June 2008, 05:17 PM

Kivi:

It was mind boggling for me that you chose for your example of a bad Jew a common criminal who fixed the World Series, when you could have chosen a monster like Trotsky. If you want to give examples of evil people, don't look for crooks. Common criminals are never the worst. Common criminals know they are sinners, and try to hide what they do. The most evil are the idealists who follow false ideals. When a Jew leaves his covenant to follow an ideal apart from HaShem, that is when true evil is done. These Jews have not only done tremendous wrong to humanity, but harmed the image of the Jewish people. The Jewish cultural value of Tikkun Olam (healing of the world) will still drive a Jew, even if he becomes an Atheist, but apart from Torah he will lose his bearing, and trying to do good, he will do the greatest of atrocities. Dennis Prager is often noted to say, "When a man doesn't believe in G-d, he will believe in anything." Besides it simply being important to obey G-d simply because He is G-d, these are also very, VERY good reasons why it is so important to bring Jews back into covenant.

GerTzedek

16th June 2008, 05:27 PM

GerTzedek

16th June 2008, 05:30 PM

I know this probably sounds daft being as I have embraces Messianic beliefs but have no answer and would really like to understand what makes the difference.
You say that you have embraced Messianic beliefs. I notice you chose that phrase rather than "Christian beliefs." Why? What is the difference in your own words? What is it about Messianic beliefs that are different than Christian beliefs?

kivi

16th June 2008, 05:33 PM

kivi says: I'm an American historian by training, so don't be suprised that I pick American examples. And setting up the original heroin/cocaine trade that morphed into the liquor trade during Prohibition and then back to heroin and cocaine after Prohibition and finally turned into what we have today is no small potatoes. I'll give you Bronstein, but not by much over Rothstein. As for Mr Prager, he is no hero of mine and using his name as an authority diminishes your arguement in my eyes. The phrase is :"If a person doesn't believe in something, he'll fall for anything." But then again, Prager always deals with warmed over ideas.;)

Kivi:

It was mind boggling for me that you chose for your example of a bad Jew a common criminal who fixed the World Series, when you could have chosen a monster like Trotsky. If you want to give examples of evil people, don't look for crooks. Common criminals are never the worst. Common criminals know they are sinners, and try to hide what they do. The most evil are the idealists who follow false ideals. When a Jew leaves his covenant to follow an ideal apart from HaShem, that is when true evil is done. These Jews have not only done tremendous wrong to humanity, but harmed the image of the Jewish people. The Jewish cultural value of Tikkun Olam (healing of the world) will still drive a Jew, even if he becomes an Atheist, but apart from Torah he will lose his bearing, and trying to do good, he will do the greatest of atrocities. Dennis Prager is often noted to say, "When a man doesn't believe in G-d, he will believe in anything." Besides it simply being important to obey G-d simply because He is G-d, these are also very, VERY good reasons why it is so important to bring Jews back into covenant.

kivi

16th June 2008, 05:44 PM

kivi says: May I suggest that the entire situation makes a great deal more sense if you treat Paul not as a Jew, but as a gentile pretending to be Jewish, as a wanna-be Jew. And the whole of his connection with Judaism and Christianity as his pyschological/emotional/spiritual effort to harmonize/make sense of his obviously conflicting/self destructive desires/needs/aspirations. The pathological self loathing on the part of Paul is tremendous/overwhelming. It poisons everything he touches. And if you do, then the whole idea of the inate inferority complex on the part of gentile Christianity, the violent hostility toward anything Jewish and on on-going effort to kill all of Judaism, either through direct homocide or conversion, has an internal logic that matches the historic record.

I agree with Ivy and Chava. A Christian can be highly supportive of the Jewish people and of Israel. What sets Messianic gentiles apart is their adopting of Jewish practices, either a little or even a great deal. Why do they do it? That is very good question.

The following is my opinion, since you have asked for opinions. I'm sure my opinion is going to rub some people the wrong way. Well, their opinions have certainly rubbed me the wrong way. I have made the effort to word this as nonoffensively, as kindly, as possible while still answering your question.

I think that for a great many, especially the less observant, it is simply the sensing of the depth of Jewish tradition that is so missing in the protestant churches they have been involved in. I used to discuss this with Stuart, that really the messianic movement has a statistically negligable number from the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions, and that this is very likely because these traditions already have rich liturgies and oral and written law and mystical traditions and a wealth of scholarship to draw upon. But the average protestant comes into a Messianic shul and experiences liturgy for the first time (and without any papacy or prayers to saints, yada yada). They really are quite blind to the idea that they may be helping themselves to things not rightly theirs or that they may be using them irreverently ... they have simply woken up to the fact that they are hungry for something more than what they had, and that they are getting more in MJ.

But this doesn't explain why some gentiles become so much more observant then the average Messianic Jew. Or why so many of them start to think of themselves as "kind of Jewish." What's going on with that?

The very best answer to this question has already been written by Dan Juster in his essay, "Who Am I ? The Question of Gentile Identity" which can be read at http://www.tikkunministries.org/newsletters/dj-dec04.asp. What is interesting is that Juster's essay is primarily a psychologically oriented one. For those uninterested in reading his better scholarship, his reasoning runs as follows: some gentiles have developed a mistaken understanding of Jews as the chosen people; they think it means that Jews have a "higher status." They have developed an inferiority complex. This leads them to misinterpret scriputres and other things to mean that they *should* observe Torah, that they are *part* of Israel, that they are "somehow" Jewish in some way, etc. I have noticed it usually leads them to overtly denigrate the gentile Christian churches for not being Jewish, and to have an unconscious anger at Jews for keeping them out or having what they themselves do not have.

I confess I do not understand their theology in the slightest -- except psychologically as what I call denial.The earliest Christians were all Jews, and practiced their newfound faith within Judaism. Within 150 years, Christianity had become a thoroughly gentile new religion separate from Judaism hostile to Jews and to Jewish law. What a person considers the ideal "early church" can fall anywhere on that very short but very dynamic timeline. These particular messianic gentiles make the gross error of pinpointing the ideal prior to the council at Jerusalem. For reasons I will never, ever understand, they are unable to see that Paul's view's prevailed at that council and that the Judaizing of gentiles was forbidden from that point on. The argument against them is prima facie. However, the fact that they make this mistake doesn't explain WHY they make this mistake. Whatever the reason, it is a very strong, very unconscious motivation for it to so overwhelm the obvious. For that, we return to Dan Juster's idea: they have the mistaken notion that being gentile is second rate, and have an inferiority complex.

Finally, there is the very uncommon but very real existence of the gentile prosylite to Judaism. There are many paths for that person to take back home, but you would be surprised to know how common it is, at least in the USA, for converts to have spent at least some time in MJ. I'll never forget the conversation I had with TheRabbi here on this board asking him why in the world an Orthodox Rabbi would spend time on a messianic board. His response was simply that Messianic Judaism produces far, far more gentile converts to Judaism than Jewish converts to Christianity, and that he wanted to make sure they get their halakhah right. I got this ohhhh so creepy feeling reading that, and thought, 'Oh my gosh, he is here in this forum for me." There is a good friend I left behind in MJ whom I am waiting for--she will never be completely happy there... I expect her to show up any time in conversion classes. There is simply something qualitatively different about certain gentiles that you can just see it coming. Messianic Judaism is, for us, a stepping stone.

Kris10leigh

16th June 2008, 08:26 PM

So much to say...such slow fingers (and yet I'm a fast typist :P!)

To the Jews who have so far participated (and GerTzedek- no offense but I haven't figured out what you call yourself yet ;)):
I hear you guys saying Jews do not convert gentiles to Judaism. I hear you saying this is somehow taboo.

I hear you saying Jews have it right and that Christians have it wrong.

Some of us gentiles agree with you.

But then I hear you say we can't be part of that club. Understood. (Slowly, but I'm getting there. Keeping in mind that I was brought up Christian I did not understand that being Jewish is as much a heritage as a culture/religion).

I hear you saying, why are you silly people following Yeshua? Well, you don't seem to want us to be Jewish.

In my ramblings (because I know I am), my bottom line question is, in a perfect world where you could control things, what would you have us gentiles do? You seem to think we're mistaken for not following Judiasm, and yet ridiculous for trying to do exactly that. :confused: Do you want us to just be "Christians" and be done with it? Been there, done that...wasn't satisfied. I wonder if I don't perhaps identify with GerTzedek's reckoning that my church did fulfill a need I had for order and for more. This is true. I have simply never been able to shake the thought that something is missing.

(I can't speak for anyone else, but I won't be offended by your answers. ;))

Kris10leigh

16th June 2008, 08:32 PM

Zaksmummy answers even better than I may, but I'll give it a go anyway. ;)

You have several 'convoluded' problems in your statement.

1/ 'man has made a mess of Yeshua's message.' If that is the case, why is the New Testament trusted by Messianics. Isn't it a prime case of were the mess made by men started??
As Zaksmummy said, I meant more in the later centuries when the Roman/Pagan concepts took over. But while we're on it, I'm not a good "Messianic" to throw into a group. I have trust issues with the New Testament and for now it boils down to faith. I'm still studying and ever changing.

2/ Why does Yeshua have such a central position? What makes him different/special/worthy of taking notice above and seperate from all the other Jewish preachers of the century before the destruction of the 2nd Temple?
I hate to answer in this way except to be honest in that I believe Yeshua has a central position because I believe He is the Messiah. Why? Because I grew up Christian. :sorry: Because very little of my "faith" is actually based on faith. MOST of it, for me, is based on intellect, which gets me into trouble at times. But the one remaining thing that I'm not willing to talk myself out of is that Yeshua IS the Messiah.

Kris10leigh

16th June 2008, 08:35 PM

[/color]

kivi says: If that is the case, why does anyone trust the New Testament. Wasn't it controlled, written, edited, re-edited by the very men you are referring to. And if that is the case, how do you know what any one really said since you can't trust the guardians of the generational transmission????
Oh you've only begun to touch on my frustration! :doh: Yes, I have trust issues with the New Testament. And that is exactly what has led me to Messianic Judaism. I DO believe that Yeshua was the Messiah and have no idea what I am supposed to do with that faith in a way that would please Him.

Kris10leigh

16th June 2008, 08:37 PM

I think that for a great many, especially the less observant, it is simply the sensing of the depth of Jewish tradition that is so missing in the protestant churches they have been involved in.
As I stated earlier, I think you may be on to something here. But while I agree that the protestant churches are lacking in certain tradition, I also think Protestant churches have ADDED a whole bunch of nonsense.

Kris10leigh

16th June 2008, 08:38 PM

What do you make of JC saying "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (aka Jews) Matthew 15:24
I don't know. I've never come across that verse before. As it relates to this thread though, what would you have me do with it? It kind of sounds like the Jews are it and the gentiles are chopped liver.

ChavaK

16th June 2008, 08:41 PM

I hear you guys saying Jews do not convert gentiles to Judaism. I hear you saying this is somehow taboo.
Not quite true- conversion is allowed. It is just not encouraged...and
we don't make it easy ;)

I hear you saying Jews have it right and that Christians have it wrong.
Sure, just as Christians feel they are right and we are wrong.
However, we are saying that Christians may believe and worship as they
wish, and that is acceptable to G-d. They do not need to become Jews.
Christians however feel Jews are"unsaved" and "unbelievers".

But then I hear you say we can't be part of that club.You can convert to Judaism if you are sincere and persistent.
And give up all previous beliefs.

I hear you saying, why are you silly people following Yeshua? Well, you don't seem to want us to be Jewish.No, you cannot be Jewish if you believe in tenents other than Torah...
and believing in Jesus leaves one outside the standards for conversion
to Judaism. If you want to convert, you have to give up belief in Jesus
and any and all beliefs that contradict Torah.

in a perfect world where you could control things, what would you have us gentiles do?
Live their lives as Christians, or Muslims, or whatever faith they have...
or convert to Judaism if they are sincere, can convince a bet din and
rabbi to convert them, and give up all previous beliefs.

You seem to think we're mistaken for not following Judiasm, and yet ridiculous for trying to do exactly that. :confused: No, we don't think you are mistaken for not following Judaism...we
think you are mistaken if you think you can combine Judaism and
Christianity.

Do you want us to just be "Christians" and be done with it?Sure, why not? If you hold Christian beliefs....why try to be a Jew?

Kris10leigh

16th June 2008, 08:56 PM

ChavaK, your post shows me that I'm having a hard time expressing myself. :sorry:

You said If you hold Christian beliefs....why try to be a Jew?

The only "Christian" belief I hold is that Yeshua is the Messiah. That's about where it ends. I don't believe Yeshua ever meant for a break off religion to come about. I no longer identify with Christianity.

No I'm not Jewish, nor do I want to be, because being Jewish means renouncing my belief in Yeshua as the Messiah. But I also do not want to worship on Sunday, celebrate Easter, worship saints, bow before Mary, worship three demi-gods, etc., etc.

Do you all at least see the conundrum?

GerTzedek

16th June 2008, 10:24 PM

The only "Christian" belief I hold is that Yeshua is the Messiah. That's about where it ends. I don't believe Yeshua ever meant for a break off religion to come about. I no longer identify with Christianity.

Do you believe in "the atonement" aka that JC died for your sins? This would be an example of a second Christian belief above and beyond the idea the JC is the messiah.

Do you believe that JC pre-existed creation and participated in creating the world, as per the opening chapter of the gospel of John? This would be an example of a third Christian belief above and beyond the idea that JC is the messiah.

Do you believe that JC was born of a virgin? This would be an example of a fourth Christian belief above and beyond the idea that JC is the messiah.

Do you anticipate the coming of the Anti-Christ? This would be yet another example of a Christian belief above and beyond the idea that JC is the messiah.

I could go on, but I bet you answered yes to at least one of the above, and very likely all of the above.

GerTzedek

16th June 2008, 10:28 PM

Kris10leigh

16th June 2008, 10:33 PM

I'm not your typical "Christian"...I'm not your typical anything really ;), but...
Do you believe in "the atonement" aka that JC died for your sins? Nope. I'm still trying to figure this one out.

Do you believe that JC pre-existed creation and participated in creating the world, as per the opening chapter of the gospel of John? Definitely not.

Do you believe that JC was born of a virgin? Depends on the day you ask me. I definitely believe that Yeshua is the literal son of God.

Do you anticipate the coming of the Anti-Christ? Definitely not.

So, based on my answers, what was your point? ;)

Kris10leigh

16th June 2008, 10:36 PM

GerTzedek

16th June 2008, 11:41 PM

I'm not your typical "Christian"...I'm not your typical anything really ;), but...
Nope. I'm still trying to figure this one out.

Definitely not.

Depends on the day you ask me. I definitely believe that Yeshua is the literal son of God.

Definitely not.

So, based on my answers, what was your point? ;)

It does make me curious about you. You obviously reject the gospels as historical, yet for some reason you believe that JC is the messiah.

I have a few questions for you. What does "Messiah" mean? Yes, I know it means annointed one, but what does THAT mean? What is the messiah supposed to do or have done? Why do you think JC is the messiah?

Second question. If JC didn't die for sins, then why did he have to die? What did his death accomplish?

Third. Given you don't accept the Chrstian scriptures, what messianic group accepts you?

Fourth. Given that the Christian scriptures are not authoritative for you, but you obviously are basing at least some of your ideas upon them, how do you work that? How do you decide what is reliable and what is not?

kivi

17th June 2008, 12:21 AM

[/color]
Oh you've only begun to touch on my frustration! :doh: Yes, I have trust issues with the New Testament. And that is exactly what has led me to Messianic Judaism. I DO believe that Yeshua was the Messiah and have no idea what I am supposed to do with that faith in a way that would please Him.

kivi says: How can you know? I don't think you can. At best, you are left with a vague feeling in your heart that you want to do the right thing. But feeling are not facts, they come an go with the tides. They have no lasting power. But without a valid historic understanding for what the right thing is, what are you left with? I would imagine, not much. If you think the Jesus is the messiah, why? A feeling? According to Judaism, he didn't do anything we think is valid and you can't trust the Christian record to say yea or ney on the matter. Belief and faith is a waste of time. There are thosands and thousands and millions and billiions believing and having faith in all sorts of things, why should your belief and faith be better than theirs? There has to be something more basic than belief and faith.

ChavaK

17th June 2008, 12:21 AM

Chava:

We are confusing them, because some of us are saying it is fine for them to remain Chrstian, and others of us are saying that as Chrstians they are committing idolatry.
Gotcha, although I am definitely in the "Christians are not idolators"
camp.

I can't blame them for feeling confused when we truly are giving them different answers.
I can understand that..in which case I think it is the Jews who have
the problem then.
If they are going to say Christians are idolators, then they are going
to have to actively campaign to get Christians to convert to Judaism.
(If they are willing to give up any belief in Jesus, that is).
Otherwise they are being hypocritical.

If they say Christians are not idolators, then they are correct to
discourage conversion

Note to all Chrstians: the rabbis do not agree on the answer to this question, so please do not expect the Jews on this forum to agree.
Yes, it is not unusual for Jews and rabbis to disagree on issues...

kivi

17th June 2008, 12:48 AM

kivi says: Judaism considers Christianity as one of the religions that meets the basic requirements of the 7 Commandments/Mitzvahs of the Torah of Noach given after the Flood. So, a good Christian is a righteous gentile and covered by "All of B'nai Israel and the righteous of the Nations have a portion in Olam Habah [the World to Come].' There is no need to stop being Christian. The objections Judaism has with Chirstianity is not with Christianity, as such, but with Christian Missionaries. If Christianity would just leave us alone, we would get along very well with Christians and you wouldn't hear a peep from us except: "Thank you.' and 'Have a great day.' But the dominate Christian drive to convert Jews to Chirstanity concerns us and our concern leads us in a way that supports and defends Judaism against such Missionaries.

Now, if you say that you have been there, done that and where not satisfied, that is a different matter. And I have to be clear that is what you are saying. I am not here to convert you or change your religion or convince you that what you are doing is wrong. I am not here against Christianity anymore than I want Christianity to be against Judaism. It is not an either/or choice. There is a movement, brought originally into active being by Christians seeking to learn more about Christianity and Judaism who contacted Orthodox Rabbis for instruction. Often, entire Christian congregations left the church. The movement is called the B'nai Noach movement and you can find it on the Web under the name of B'nai Noach or Torah of Noach or Noachide congregation. May I suggest: http://www.beni-noah.com/

More importantly, life is not lived on the Net. Matters of this importance require face to face with a competant rabbi. I don't know where you live so I can't recommend a possible 'match', but if you are interested, please email me.

So much to say...such slow fingers (and yet I'm a fast typist :P!)

To the Jews who have so far participated (and GerTzedek- no offense but I haven't figured out what you call yourself yet ;)):
I hear you guys saying Jews do not convert gentiles to Judaism. I hear you saying this is somehow taboo.

I hear you saying Jews have it right and that Christians have it wrong.

Some of us gentiles agree with you.

But then I hear you say we can't be part of that club. Understood. (Slowly, but I'm getting there. Keeping in mind that I was brought up Christian I did not understand that being Jewish is as much a heritage as a culture/religion).

I hear you saying, why are you silly people following Yeshua? Well, you don't seem to want us to be Jewish.

In my ramblings (because I know I am), my bottom line question is, in a perfect world where you could control things, what would you have us gentiles do? You seem to think we're mistaken for not following Judiasm, and yet ridiculous for trying to do exactly that. :confused: Do you want us to just be "Christians" and be done with it? Been there, done that...wasn't satisfied. I wonder if I don't perhaps identify with GerTzedek's reckoning that my church did fulfill a need I had for order and for more. This is true. I have simply never been able to shake the thought that something is missing.

(I can't speak for anyone else, but I won't be offended by your answers. ;))

ChavaK

17th June 2008, 01:18 AM

kivi says: Judaism considers Christianity as one of the religions that meets the basic requirements of the 7 Commandments/Mitzvahs of the Torah of Noach given after the Flood.

I agree with this; I do not consider Christians to be idolators.
Other Jews, however, will disagree.
When can we ever agree on everything?:D

kivi

17th June 2008, 01:36 AM

Zaksmummy answers even better than I may, but I'll give it a go anyway. ;)

As Zaksmummy said, I meant more in the later centuries when the Roman/Pagan concepts took over. But while we're on it, I'm not a good "Messianic" to throw into a group. I have trust issues with the New Testament and for now it boils down to faith. I'm still studying and ever changing.

I hate to answer in this way except to be honest in that I believe Yeshua has a central position because I believe He is the Messiah. Why? Because I grew up Christian. :sorry: Because very little of my "faith" is actually based on faith. MOST of it, for me, is based on intellect, which gets me into trouble at times. But the one remaining thing that I'm not willing to talk myself out of is that Yeshua IS the Messiah.

Then why is he the messiah? What did he do that makes him the messiah? What makes him different than all the other hundreds of Jewish preachers that roamed around Eretz Israel and preached for repentence and against the Romans and their fellow travelers? When I talk to Christians, they just stop there: Jesus is the Messiah. No evidence, no proof, no facts, just a flat statement that he 'is' and that's the way it is. I don't get it. Then they wip out something about faith is believing in something that is not understandable/provable/rational. I just don't get it. And maybe I never will.

kivi

17th June 2008, 01:42 AM

ChavaK, your post shows me that I'm having a hard time expressing myself. :sorry:

You said

The only "Christian" belief I hold is that Yeshua is the Messiah. That's about where it ends. I don't believe Yeshua ever meant for a break off religion to come about. I no longer identify with Christianity.

No I'm not Jewish, nor do I want to be, because being Jewish means renouncing my belief in Yeshua as the Messiah. But I also do not want to worship on Sunday, celebrate Easter, worship saints, bow before Mary, worship three demi-gods, etc., etc.

Do you all at least see the conundrum?

kivi says: Between a rock and a hard place. ;)

kivi

17th June 2008, 01:59 AM

Chava:

We are confusing them, because some of us are saying it is fine for them to remain Chrstian, and others of us are saying that as Chrstians they are committing idolatry. I can't blame them for feeling confused when we truly are giving them different answers.

Note to all Chrstians: the rabbis do not agree on the answer to this question, so please do not expect the Jews on this forum to agree.

If I might?:) Christianity carries a lot of baggage. The three part god, the semi divine resurrection god, the virgin mother, the devil and the forever hell. All very difficult to deal with from a monotheistic point of view, an absolute requirement for the Torah of Noach. But, on the other hand, there is no seperate priesthood, holydays, rituals and offering, hardly any mythology or such. In effect, for all of the baggage, all of Christianity collapses down into a system that worships only one god. For this reason and for this reason, alone, Judaism holds that Christianity meets the requires for the Torah of Noach. However, it does not meet the requirements for Jews and Judaism, the Torah of Moshe Rabbeneu. So, while a gentile can be a Christian and get the benefts of 'All of B'nai Israel and the righteous of the Nations have a portion in Olan Habah.", Jews do not.

There is no confusion. There are two seperate standards for two seperate peoples with seperate functions in G-d's Universe. The Rabbis are in aggreement with that. It is settled Halachah for the last 1000 years ago. Just as a medical doctor would be expected to be more highly trained than a plumber in medicine, that does not make the medical doctor better or more holy than the plumber. Just ask the medical doctor on a Sunday mornng when the toilet is plugged and the down stairs kitchen is flood with seeping toilet water from the ceiling. No one would ask a civilian with civilian training to go into a burning building to rescue trapped victims as we did of the NYC firemen on 9/11. That requires a different level of training. So to with Judaism. It takes a special type of training to stay in the face of danger, whether it is a death camp in Poland or a Pizza Hut in Tel Aviv, so that the rest of Mankind can be warned that it is in danger. That training is called the Torah of Moshe Rabbeneu.

GerTzedek

17th June 2008, 03:46 AM

kivi, there are those whom I respect in this forum but with whom I disagree who have told these christians that christians worship a different G-d. That is the sort of statement that would put them outside the Noachide covenant. That is why it is important for Christians to know that our rabbis do not agree on this issue. There are in fact some rabbis who would say that, i.e., an Eastern Orthodox Chrstian will have no part in the world to come because they have engaged in idolatry. Other rabbis teach differently. When I last spoke to TheRabbi about this issue at length when he was still lurking around the board, he indicated that many rabbis believed the whole issue needed to be re-examined, as Christianity as a whole had evolved so much in the last millenia, as has its relationship with the Jewish community. I suspect that should that happen, the majority opinion would be the one you propose.

kivi

17th June 2008, 04:12 AM

kivi says: The practical problem with that is that Jews would be forbidden to engaged in ordinary commercial or social situations with Christians. [We could not be hired by them and we could not hire them, etc.] Of course, that is not the case. The consensus iof the Rabbis is that gentile Christians do not fall into the category of idol worshippers [though Jewish Christians do]. If there are disagreements, I would like to see them. It would be interesting to see the logic and examin the authority of the presentor.

kivi, there are those whom I respect in this forum but with whom I disagree who have told these christians that christians worship a different G-d. That is the sort of statement that would put them outside the Noachide covenant. That is why it is important for Christians to know that our rabbis do not agree on this issue. There are in fact some rabbis who would say that, i.e., an Eastern Orthodox Chrstian will have no part in the world to come because they have engaged in idolatry. Other rabbis teach differently. When I last spoke to TheRabbi about this issue at length when he was still lurking around the board, he indicated that many rabbis believed the whole issue needed to be re-examined, as Christianity as a whole had evolved so much in the last millenia, as has its relationship with the Jewish community. I suspect that should that happen, the majority opinion would be the one you propose.

kivi

17th June 2008, 04:22 AM

I agree with this; I do not consider Christians to be idolators.
Other Jews, however, will disagree.
When can we ever agree on everything?:D

kivi says: I just don't see that. There is remarkable uniformity and consensus on Halachah within the Observant Community. And with minhag, customs, that do not have the force of Halachic status, we all agree to let each other 'do their own thingee'. I wait 3 hours between meat and milk and my Russian Jewish friend waits 6. I don't hassel him and he doesn't hassel me. And if I invite him over, I respect and take in account where he might be in the 'waiting' period and serve the food accordingly. It really works very well. Any and all discussion on Halachah is aimed at achieving consensus. It took 30 years to achieve consensus on the status of plastics in food perperation and storage. But consensus was achieved and the matter settled. Why should we expect otherwise in other issues? Important stuff takes time. But the facts of the matter are clear. 99.999% of the Halachic questions are settle case law, not to be changed, and the other .001 is still being debated [cloning, artificial insemination, right to life, etc].

cyberlizard

17th June 2008, 04:38 AM

Do you believe that JC pre-existed creation and participated in creating the world, as per the opening chapter of the gospel of John? This would be an example of a third Christian belief above and beyond the idea that JC is the messiah.

with all due respect Ger, you should know better. Jesus did not exist before his birth, there is no scripture that really says he did.

however

the scriptures do say that the 'word' (which is entirely in keeping with the Jewish concept of Memra) wrapped himself up in a human cocoon. We call the outer shell Jesus (the man), we call the inner being, the Word of YHVH, the memra.

There is nothing wrong with this concept from an ancient Jewish perspective (just a modern one).

Steve

p.s. (i have a good set of studies on this subject in pdf format) should anyone want to read them.)

cyberlizard

17th June 2008, 04:47 AM

Do you believe that JC was born of a virgin? This would be an example of a fourth Christian belief above and beyond the idea that JC is the messiah.

Was Jesus born of a virgin.... always brought up by some. This really boils down the the meaning of words. At this point the authority of the septuagint will be brought up. Oddly enough this matches up best with the DSS rather than the very late accepted text most Jews use. That aside though

The real crux of this verse is that it is a quote from Isaiah. Now rightly enough, it cannot apply to Jesus (or can it) as Jesus is never explicitly called 'immanu'el' but then again neither is Hezekiah (so in this instance we would have to conclude that either the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, or we are not reading and understanding it as required).

Steve

cyberlizard

17th June 2008, 05:01 AM

zaksmummy

17th June 2008, 06:29 AM

You say that you have embraced Messianic beliefs. I notice you chose that phrase rather than "Christian beliefs." Why? What is the difference in your own words? What is it about Messianic beliefs that are different than Christian beliefs?

I was raised a christian, but I have embraced the Torah-observance, or as Cyberlizard calls it, Torah-absorbance.

I was interested to read what that bloke (cant remember his name) wrote about people who become Messianic, and yes I have seen that a lot in myself (minus the liturgy stuff - I used to dislike it intensely) when I first came to this place in my spiritual journey, I have come to realise that this was fuelled by pride, which HaShem has been nudging me along to dealing with.

I would say that He brought me to this place, to this understanding, and there is no going back.

So after much agonising and trying to define myself, I would consider myself to be an Hebraic christian - Messianincs as far as I can see are Jewish people who have embraced Yeshua as their Messiah, Hebriac christians are people who are called to live a Torah observant lifestyle. Personally I would be happy to give up many of the christian things we still do, but this is difficult due to the area we live in and the lack of other people who hold similar views. But we do what we can and worship God in the way he has shown us and I personally feel much more fulfilled as a person than I did when I just went to church on a sunday.

Kris10leigh

17th June 2008, 07:56 AM

There's just something about a message board that brings a lot of learned people together. Because I live in a very Christian world, I can honestly say that most Christians I know (which is 99% of the people in my real life) are not at all well educated in religious matters. I am most definitely in that category of unlearned folks and am trying to change that, but I can't go from uneducated to educated in a day or even in the few short months I've been here. This is where I started my journey. I've only just started reading the bible and am only half way through Exodus. The most learned person I know in real life is my best male friend, who is atheist. What attracted me very early to Judaism, when I was in college, was that any question I asked of my Jewish friends, they knew the answer. One friend was always qualifying his answers with "I'm not very religious but...", and yet he always knew why Jews practiced what they did. That began my journey into learning more about Judaism.

In college I wanted to convert to Judaism. But something was missing for me. In some ways I felt more fulfilled. In other ways I felt empty. From that was born my belief that Yeshua IS the Messiah but that He is to be worshipped from a Jewish perspective. So, in response to your questions:

I have a few questions for you. What does "Messiah" mean? Yes, I know it means annointed one, but what does THAT mean? What is the messiah supposed to do or have done? Why do you think JC is the messiah?
In a few other threads you may have noticed me begging for scripture that leads to who the Messiah was supposed to be. Only just having received what I was looking for, I haven't combed through it enough to have wrapped my brain around it yet. Prior to receiving that information, I'd say I think Yeshua is the Messiah because that's what I grew up believing, but also because when I rejected him it didn't feel right and my life was empty. I believe He is the Messiah because history tells me that He is, achoeology and the like. It is clear to me that He existed.

Second question. If JC didn't die for sins, then why did he have to die? What did his death accomplish?
I don't know why He had to die. That has always been a mystery to me. But at Passover time I finally got the connection between the passover lamb and Yeshua. I believe that just as God instructed the Hebrews to mark their doors with the blood of the Passover lamb, so has God marked all of those who believe in Yeshua with the blood of Yeshua. I don't know WHY that had to be. I understand that at all because it seems to me that if God can do anything, He can certainly save people without the blood of His own son. That seems rather morbid.

Third. Given you don't accept the Chrstian scriptures, what messianic group accepts you?
It's not that I don't accept them. I don't throw them all out. I just read them with a grain of salt or with the idea that it's all been re-translated over time, in particular by King James who had political agendas in mind. As for what Messianic group accepts me, I think this one here online does. ;) Organized religion has never suited me well. When I came here, I was really hoping that finally I had found a label in calling myself Messianic. But no, it seems I'm still a bit of a loaner. But Messianic seems to fit me best.

It's strange to me you ask though, what group accepts me. I still attend my Methodist church and they accept me just fine. I have fascinating discussions with our minister.

Fourth. Given that the Christian scriptures are not authoritative for you, but you obviously are basing at least some of your ideas upon them, how do you work that? How do you decide what is reliable and what is not?
I have no set ways. I "work that" by not teaching what I believe. I'm happy to share what I believe, but I'm not one to convert anyone to the ramblings of Kristen.

Kris10leigh

17th June 2008, 08:01 AM

Now, if you say that you have been there, done that and where not satisfied, that is a different matter. And I have to be clear that is what you are saying. I am not here to convert you or change your religion or convince you that what you are doing is wrong. I am not here against Christianity anymore than I want Christianity to be against Judaism. It is not an either/or choice...

More importantly, life is not lived on the Net. Matters of this importance require face to face with a competant rabbi. I don't know where you live so I can't recommend a possible 'match', but if you are interested, please email me.
Just so that we are clear, I hope you can tell by my posts that I am certainly not out to convert anyone. One of my basic, unmoveable beliefs is that God knows what is in all of our hearts and that He accepts us all as long as we are truly following what we feel led to do. None of us can know for certain that we are right except for God. We will not know until we meet Him upon our death. It is not for me to judge and I won't judge.

I believe this world would be very dull indeed if we all believed the same way. I only wish everyone could get along with each other along the way and that we didn't have to endure religious persecution.

kivi

17th June 2008, 03:11 PM

with all due respect Ger, you should know better. Jesus did not exist before his birth, there is no scripture that really says he did.

however

the scriptures do say that the 'word' (which is entirely in keeping with the Jewish concept of Memra) wrapped himself up in a human cocoon. We call the outer shell Jesus (the man), we call the inner being, the Word of YHVH, the memra.

There is nothing wrong with this concept from an ancient Jewish perspective (just a modern one).

Steve

p.s. (i have a good set of studies on this subject in pdf format) should anyone want to read them.)

kivi says: Sorry, but that is not Torah. G-d promises us that He is not a man, that He does not have a physicall body, that He is only spirit and that He does not lie. That excludes the wrapping anything in anything.

kivi

17th June 2008, 03:20 PM

Was Jesus born of a virgin.... always brought up by some. This really boils down the the meaning of words. At this point the authority of the septuagint will be brought up. Oddly enough this matches up best with the DSS rather than the very late accepted text most Jews use. That aside though

kivi says: The current Sept. is the result of centuries of translation by pagan and Christian authors. It has no Jewish authencitiy or authority. The original Sept., written by the 70 Rabbis under the compulsion of the Pharo Ptolemy stopped being in existance by 100 CE, at the lastest.

The real crux of this verse is that it is a quote from Isaiah. Now rightly enough, it cannot apply to Jesus (or can it) as Jesus is never explicitly called 'immanu'el' but then again neither is Hezekiah (so in this instance we would have to conclude that either the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, or we are not reading and understanding it as required). Steve

kivi says: You are correct: "we are not reading and understanding it as required". Since you have no tradition from the time of the writting of the prophetic books, you can't claim to have anything but the text. How absolutely trapped you are, to only part of the story. But Judaism does have a Tradition from the time of the prophetic books and so, we do have something more than the text that explains the text. And, so, we are not trapped by the text and we can read it and understand it as required.

kivi

17th June 2008, 03:35 PM

Let me say though, before it appears I am 'bashing anyone' that I want to give credit to the anti-missionaries for providing me with some of the best arguments I have seen to date: The Jewish Messiah, a jewish response to missionaries by A. Kaplan.

truth is though, Jesus message was very simple, everyone just complicated it, mostly through reading into it two thousand years of baggage on top, and a complete misunderstanding of second temple period history... what was the message 'repentace leading to forgiveness of sins'...(near ends of Luke's gospel).

now what do the current Judaisms take issue with in this instance.... why should t'shuvah be so problematic.

the problem appears not to be so much with Jesus as the message of his later students, particular the post apostolic ones.

Steve

kivi says: That is the silliest thing I have heard in a long time. Its all everybody elses fault, somebody else complicated it, lets blame the 'post apostolic ones'. :P^_^:clap:

Lets get real. If the Jesus message was just repentance, why does any one need him, specifically. Why not all the other 100's of wandering Jewish preachers from the 1st Century, CE? Why not all the 1000's of wandering Jwish preachers througout history? I hear repentance from my Rabbi every day. What's so special about Jesus? What does he have that Yom Kippur doesn't?

LittleLambofJesus

17th June 2008, 03:51 PM

kivi says: Sorry, but that is not Torah. G-d promises us that He is not a man, that He does not have a physicall body, that He is only spirit and that He does not lie. That excludes the wrapping anything in anything.Unless this is a typo in John 4, JESUS said the same thing about YHWH His Father. [though I like Rotherham's translation, he uses too many punctuation marks :sorry:]

[Rotherham]John 4:23 But there cometh an hour, and, now, is,--when, the real worshippers, shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for, even the Father, is seeking, such as these, as His worshippers. 24 God is, spirit; and, they that worship Him, in spirit and truth, must needs worship.

Reve 22:9 And he is saying to me: "Be you seeing! no, fellow bondservent of thee I am and of the brothers of thee, the prophets, and of the ones keeping the Words of the scrollet, this. To the GOD/YHWH worship thou!

kivi

17th June 2008, 04:25 PM

Unless this is a typo in John 4, JESUS said the same thing about YHWH His Father. [though I like Rotherham's translation, he uses too many punctuation marks :sorry:]

[Rotherham]John 4:23 But there cometh an hour, and, now, is,--when, the real worshippers, shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for, even the Father, is seeking, such as these, as His worshippers. 24 God is, spirit; and, they that worship Him, in spirit and truth, must needs worship.

Reve 22:9 And he is saying to me: "Be you seeing! no, fellow bondservent of thee I am and of the brothers of thee, the prophets, and of the ones keeping the Words of the scrollet, this. To the GOD/YHWH worship thou!

kivi says: Then why Jesus? Why the need for physicality? What gives with the all the wrapping and all the unwrapping? Why make it so complicated? G-d is G-d. He doesn't need all of the trinity hoop-lah. He wants us to repent, He has us repent. He wants us to do atonement, He has us to atonement. Many focus on Avraham's faith in G-d, what can be missed is if G-d was putting Avraham through a job inteview, Avraham was also putting G-d throug a job interview. By the time of Avraham, gods had a very bad reputation. They were childish, lieing, implusive, hateful, unloyal, untrustworthy, self justifying powerful bastards who tortured and raped and killed and abused Mankind for fun and profit. G-d had to prove to Avraham that He was not that type of god. All of the tests that Avraham went through for G-d were also tests that G-d went through for Avraham. Jesus is a step backward, not a step forward. He re-institutes human sacrifice, he re-institutes having some else who is not responsible take the fall for they who are, he re-institutes symbolic cannablism, he re-institues human/divine rape, he re-institutes implusive and favor-ism forms of divine behavior.

GerTzedek

17th June 2008, 10:11 PM

Prior to receiving that information, I'd say I think Yeshua is the Messiah because that's what I grew up believing, but also because when I rejected him it didn't feel right and my life was empty. I've seen people go through religious disillusionment when they have had something meaningful, as well as gone through it myself after my divorce, and it is not a good thing. The first time I left my ideas regarding JC, I chose NOT to become Jewish, for several reasons. Without a faith community for support during a time of tragedy, I really fell apart. You felt a vague feeling that all was not right. I felt downright dead and empty. We underestimate the importance of community, I think. It is one of my concerns with the promotion of the idea of merely being Noachide -- where is the community? There are those for whom being solitary works, but most people are not wired that way.

I believe He is the Messiah because history tells me that He is, achoeology and the like. It is clear to me that He existed.These things can give you confidence that JC existed in history. archeology doesn't create the idea of Moshiach, nor define it. That comes from the Hebrew Scriptures. The Christian Scriptures develop an entirely DIFFERENT notion of Messiah and definition.

I don't know why He had to die. That has always been a mystery to me. But at Passover time I finally got the connection between the passover lamb and Yeshua.

I understand the analogy that Christians wish to draw. But an analogy is not evidence. Now let us examine the analogy. The blood of the passover lamb averted the death of the first born. What death is the blood of Jesus supposed to avert? Obviously not physical. The standard Christian doctrine is that G-d has decided to do away with righteous judgment, and instead simply give carte blanche forgiveness and eternal life to some and not to others independent of whether or not they actually do justice, show mercy, and walk humbly with G-d. Is that what you buy into?

And how do you justify it being human sacrifice, which G-d forbade?

He can certainly save people without the blood of His own son.
He has ALWAYS forgiven those who turn from sin and turn to Him. A broken heart and contrite spirit is the sacrifice he most desires.

As for what Messianic group accepts me, I think this one here online does. ;) Organized religion has never suited me well. When I came here, I was really hoping that finally I had found a label in calling myself Messianic. But no, it seems I'm still a bit of a loaner. But Messianic seems to fit me best.

It's strange to me you ask though, what group accepts me. I still attend my Methodist church and they accept me just fine. I have fascinating discussions with our minister.

I think you misunderstood. I don't mean "accept" like who loves you and welcomes you. I mean who AGREES with you. Your methodist church does not accept you as a Christian. They obviously love you. But they are hoping to CONVERT you. They think you have lost your way.

I have a new question for you. You attend a methodist church, and apart from believing Jesus is the Messiah, you say you hold no christian beliefs. In what way are you messianic? Do you observe Jewish practices?

GerTzedek

17th June 2008, 10:24 PM

I was raised a christian, but I have embraced the Torah-observance, or as Cyberlizard calls it, Torah-absorbance.

I was interested to read what that bloke (cant remember his name) wrote about people who become Messianic, and yes I have seen that a lot in myself (minus the liturgy stuff - I used to dislike it intensely) when I first came to this place in my spiritual journey, I have come to realise that this was fuelled by pride, which HaShem has been nudging me along to dealing with.

I would say that He brought me to this place, to this understanding, and there is no going back.

So after much agonising and trying to define myself, I would consider myself to be an Hebraic christian - Messianincs as far as I can see are Jewish people who have embraced Yeshua as their Messiah, Hebriac christians are people who are called to live a Torah observant lifestyle. Personally I would be happy to give up many of the christian things we still do, but this is difficult due to the area we live in and the lack of other people who hold similar views. But we do what we can and worship God in the way he has shown us and I personally feel much more fulfilled as a person than I did when I just went to church on a sunday.

Yet these are messianic practices, not messianic beliefs. Even cyberlizard's idea that all gentile believers in JC should be torah observant is hardly shared by all messianics. I do realize that you DO many things differently than the typical Chrstian. But what , if any, beliefs do you have that you would consider "Messianic" and not "Christian?"

Or possibly, you mispoke, and "Messianic beliefs" was simply not the best choice of words to express what you were trying to say? Perhaps Messianic practices?

Kris10leigh

17th June 2008, 10:58 PM

I didn't draw that analogy until I came here to these boards and celebrated my first full Passover. (I'd been celebrating the seder for 6 years or so, but not the full feast of unleavened bread) That's neither here nor there, however. ;)
[QUOTE] But an analogy is not evidence. Now let us examine the analogy. The blood of the passover lamb averted the death of the first born. What death is the blood of Jesus supposed to avert? Obviously not physical. The standard Christian doctrine is that G-d has decided to do away with righteous judgment, and instead simply give carte blanche forgiveness and eternal life to some and not to others independent of whether or not they actually do justice, show mercy, and walk humbly with G-d. Is that what you buy into?
No, and I don't think that does Christian belief justice. Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins as the ultimate sacrifice. I won't pretend to fully comprehend what that means, though I probably should. But all that is required is a belief in Jesus as the Messiah. The rest is all theology. That is my opinion.

I think you misunderstood. I don't mean "accept" like who loves you and welcomes you. I mean who AGREES with you. Your methodist church does not accept you as a Christian. They obviously love you. But they are hoping to CONVERT you. They think you have lost your way.
Not entirely. My pastor does not even buy into all of Christian belief. He says it is highly debated in seminary. He says that one of the greatest tests of our faith is to attend seminary, and I believe that. They discuss all that we discuss here, hearing argument from all sides. He does not read the Bible literally himself, but does indeed teach it literally. So he does accept me and I've never been told I am not Christian. Depending on how the word is used, I am proud to be Christian. I am not proud of the Pagan turn Christianity has taken, but I am proud to be a follower of Yeshua.

I have a new question for you. You attend a methodist church, and apart from believing Jesus is the Messiah, you say you hold no christian beliefs. In what way are you messianic? Do you observe Jewish practices?
Like I said before, I have no label. I really was/am seeking a place to fit in. I thought Messianic was a good fit. In some ways, I still do. I just want to follow Yeshua as the Jewish leader that He was. That's all. The rest of it is just man's take on things.

Do I observe Jewish practice? To the best of my newborn knowledge, I kind of try. I have found the Seder dinner to be a very rewarding and God filled celebration for about 6 years and this year added the week long feast. I'm starting to add Jewish holidays to the mix, but I'm novice and alone at it. But I'm not Jewish, have no Jewish relatives and my Jewish friends are long gone (high school/college days).

GerTzedek

17th June 2008, 10:59 PM

cyberlizard:

Back when I was a Christian I certainly believed JC pre-existed his birth, and indeed pre-existed all of creation, based on the opening verses of John 1. You are free to have your own interpretations. However, mine were standard Christian orthodoxy.

You and I think very differently. I am the sort who is reluctant to question conventional wisdom. It is not that I don't have a questioning mind; I do, and it is alway working. But I feel like I would be being utterly arrogant if I just easily assumed that I as a mere individual, no matter how smart and learned I am, had more understanding than minds a lot more intelligent and a lot more learned than I am, especially when I am considering their COLLECTIVE and DISTILLED wisdom. So rather than hang around and criticize this and that, I tend to acquiesce (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4SUNA_en___US271&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=acquiesce&spell=1) and quietly accumulate doubts over extraordarily long periods of time, until the weight of my inner doubts reaches critical mass, and causes a kind of mental avalanche. Then I go through very extreme changes very fast.

In response to your comment that JC's message was very simple: I disagree.

However, if you want to strip things away the way it appears you are doing, then yes, you end up with Judaism. And you don't need JC for Judaism.

GerTzedek

17th June 2008, 11:09 PM

Kris10leigh

17th June 2008, 11:12 PM

I tend to acquiesce (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4SUNA_en___US271&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=acquiesce&spell=1) and quietly accumulate doubts over extraordarily long periods of time, until the weight of my inner doubts reaches critical mass, and causes a kind of mental avalanche. Then I go through very extreme changes very fast.

Hmmm, kinda like where I am right now. ^_^ I really need to get out more...or talk to a real life person...or something. I've been reading way to many contradictions in theology lately. And buying into all of it!

I'm starting to notice that I am no longer consistent in my answers. It truly depends on the hour you ask me and that's not always a good thing. Is it ever a good thing? :o

Kris10leigh

17th June 2008, 11:15 PM

Well, Kris. I wish you well. I hope you find your way. I don't have much to offer you. Actually, folks such as yourself that don't want to think about things and are perfectly happy with everything being fuzzy are just not the kind of personality that I relate to very well at all, but it doesn't mean I don't know you are good people. I think what is important is that you seem have the basics down: you are regularly attending a place where you can worship HaShem, you embrace basic moral values, and you have surrounded yourself with basicly descent people who will pull you up instead of bring you down. My road is not your road, and that actually A-okay.
I'm with you on all but the red part. That's actually not me at all. I OVER think everything and am not at all happy with it. I just don't understand how anyone can grab onto a belief and say, "Yep, I got it!" I wish I could.

And please understand I'm really just starting to educate myself on religion. And seeing as I'm doing it alone, I suppose there's going to be some doubt.

Kris10leigh

17th June 2008, 11:18 PM

You know what...just scratch most of what I've said over the past week. I'm not making any sense and have lost a bit of...well...myself. I'm very confused.

I have stuff going on at home that clouds my world outlook sometimes.

I think I need to fellowship more and read theology less...for now.

GerTzedek

17th June 2008, 11:26 PM

I can relate. Sometimes we need to regroup our forces, and get our priorities straightened out. There is a season for everything.

GerTzedek

17th June 2008, 11:30 PM

I'm starting to notice that I am no longer consistent in my answers. It truly depends on the hour you ask me and that's not always a good thing. Is it ever a good thing? :o
It's called Cognitive Disonance. I hate it when I go through that! But it just means you are in a state of transition. You are a different person than I am, of course, but I can say from the several times I've been through this that I can't rush it by making a premature intellectual decision. My intuition will work it through on a very deep level in its own time. Remember that HaShem loves you, we love you, your family and friends love you, your church community loves you. So do something nice for yourself -- a bubble bath, a chocolate sundae... whatever does it for you. And let things happen in their own time.

cyberlizard

18th June 2008, 12:29 AM

kivi says: The current Sept. is the result of centuries of translation by pagan and Christian authors. It has no Jewish authencitiy or authority. The original Sept., written by the 70 Rabbis under the compulsion of the Pharo Ptolemy stopped being in existance by 100 CE, at the lastest.

please can you provide me with acadeic references so i can check out your claims.... Steve, the ever interested! or at least be more specific in your diatribe.

thanks

kivi

18th June 2008, 12:58 AM

please can you provide me with acadeic references so i can check out your claims.... Steve, the ever interested! or at least be more specific in your diatribe.

thanks

From: "Yafeu ibn Taom" <u1002817@warwick.net> Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:39 am Subject: A rough draft about the Alexandrian Septuagint B"H Septuagint is the accepted term for the collection of books consideredscriptural by the Hellenized Greek speaking Jewry of Alexandria Egypt.This was the case for an about 400 year interval from around 250 BCEuntil about 150 CE The Septuagint takes its name from the origin of the first translation of the Five Books of Moses into Greek. That was done by 72 Jews accordingto the Letter of Aristeas. When naming the work, the number was roundeddown to 70 [but see next paragraph], dubbed the Septuagint and in time represented by the Roman numeral LXX. Whether or not Ptolemy Philadrlphus wanted to expand his library or todisprove the divine origin of the Torah, the Jews of Alexandria and all other Jews who were conversant in Greek but unable to understand or speak Hebrew needed translations of all the Hebrew scriptures. Thetranslators of the Targum haShibiym -- the Pentateuch -- were authorizedto do so. According to Mishnah Soferiym 1:8 there were exactly 70 of them acting under inspiration. Each one of them, though working separately,produced the exact same text including 11 deliberate "mistranslations." Translation of the canonical Hebrew books continued but not by the sametranslators nor by divine inspiration or royal edict. The Jewish community in Egypt spoke Greek and little Hebrew. They needed a translation in the Egyptian tinged Greek that they understood. So term Septuagint refers to the translation of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings into the Greek idiom, not just as originally to the Torah alone. Besides these, the extra-canonical Apochrypa are also part of the Septuagint. This complete work was used by Greek speaking Jewish communities throughout the eastern and southern Mediterranean. It was a composite work by disparate authors not by the same persons who did the Five Books of Moses. The quality of the translations vary, none as high as the original translators authorized by the Zugoth, i.e. the Nasi and the Ab Beth Diynback in Judea. In some instances midrash replaces then actual N"K text. The Septuagint translations of the Nebi'iym and the Ketubi'iym were madeover a hundred year period after the Targum haShibiym was completed.Those translations weren't authorized and their level of scribal scholarshipvaries from book to book. Interspersed within the Septuagint N"K are several books that were composed after the time of Ezra and the Anshei K*nesseth haGadol (the Men of the Great Assembly). Due to their non-inspired origin, the added books came to be called Apocrypha or Deuterocanonical . Some of the Alexandrian Septuagint Apocrypha are known to pre-Templedestruction era Tannaitic Jewry. Hhaz"l discuss the apocryphal Ecclesiasticus and even quote it at times (TB Baba Bathra 146a, TB Niddah 16b, Yebamoth 63b, etc.) though suggesting it shouldn't be in common usage (TB Sanhedrin 100b). The Qumran library/scroll depository/copy shop, which was shut down in 68 CE had, in Hebrew or Aramaic, the apocryphal works: Susanna 4Q551; Tobit 4Q196-9, 4Q200, 4Q478; Ecclesiasticus (The Wisdom of ben Sira) 2QSir; Psalm 151 11Q5; the Greek Septuagint Epistle of Jeremiah 7QLXXEpJer;The 7th cave at Qumran contained texts written in Greek. A few of them areactually fragments of the Septuagint (7QLXXExod and 7QLXXEpJer). It maybe possible, though unlikely, that those Qumran Hebrew texts which agree with the Septuagint are back translations from Greek into Hebrew. It's important to realize that the Qumran collection isn't authoritative. Aversion found in Qumran doesn't mean it was the official text recognizedby Jewry outside of the Qumran sect. Many sectarian texts were foundamidst the works stored at Qumran. The people associated with Qumranwere a bit separatist and even somewhat isolationist. Would they havevalued or thought the scrolls of the Temple Court were correct? The TempleCourt scrolls were the only ones that legitimate copies could be made from. What most never seem to note is that Qumran did have many more texts reading like the Masoretic than it did ones reading like the Septuagint.Another thing to note is that there was a cache of scrolls at Masada.Masada wasn't sectarian. The scrolls there agree with the Masoretic.The Masada scrolls were certainly copies made by the professional sopheriym of the Temple Court. Remember, the Septuagint N"K are unauthorized translations; the effortis mostly a poor attempt; Greek speaking Jewry abandoned it for the Aquilacirca 127 CE at which point the Septuagint found itself on trash heaps butnever stored away in a geniza. That's why there are no authentic copies of Alexandrian Jewry's Septuagint. There does not exist a single surviving copy of the Alexandrian authored Septuagint. That on going work remained in use between 280 BCE and 150 CE whenwhen the Aquila translation replaced it. The Aquila contained only the books re-affirmed canonical by the minor sanhedrin at Yabneh circa 92 CE. Before Yabneh, the Apocrypha and the works labeled Pseudepigrapha (because they were falesly attributed to famous authors) circulated among Jews. Some of these works incorporated either alien theology blatantly pagan in origin or theology simply outside of the received tradition. The Septuagint with its Apocrypha fell out of Jewish usage. Hhaz"l havepointed out the known and intentional mistranslations employed by the Jewish translators of the Septuagint. Once Greek speaking Jewry accepted the Aquila translation's superiority they used it up until the 7th century CE. The Septuagintbasically became worthless in the 2nd century when Jews abandoned it. The early Christians chose the Greek Septuagint as their core Bible. Many variant copies of it were then made by Christians. Origen derived his Septuagint (circa 245 CE) from flawed copies floating around in the Christian community. Not one authentic Alexandrian Septuagint was in circulation by Origen's time. In the hundred years since Aquila they had been discarded as trash.What is true is that the Septuagint available today is not the Alexandrian one which disappeared by 245 CE. It's not even Origen's attempt to reconstruct the Alexandrian Septuagint. And Origen's Hexapla Septuagint is a pastche with fabrications of his own invention. Origen left notes indicating "defective" and "filled out" text. In other words he had no complete copy only fragments and made up some text himself for various passages. Even Origen's Septuagint is unavailable today. All we have are variantcopies full of copyist errors to an already admitted patiched text derived from fragments. What we have today is the Christian Septuagint and it shouldn't be mistaken for the Alexandrian Jewish Septuagint TN"K compiled and used before the birth of Christianity. There are no extant copies of the Septuagint in use by the community of Jews in Alexandria Egypt or in their oofshoot communities such as theone in Brooklyn. Only fragments of the Jewish Septuagint remain. Most of these fragments were found in Egypt. A few were found at the repository in Qumran. As noted above Qumran scroll 4QJerb (written in Hebrew) is the Septuagint version of Jeremiah. The Septuagint books of Tobit, Ecclesiasticus, and Susanna (all in Hebrew) and the letter of Jeremiah and Psalm 151 (both inGreek) were all found at the Qumran library which closed down circa 68 CE.That date assures that no Christian elements appear in those works. A timeline relating to the Septuagint: c280 BCE Septuagint - Pentateuch; Jewish c180 BCE Septuagint - completed with N"K and Apocrypha; Jewish c 20 CE Philo - the "pearl" of Alexandrian Jewry c 68 CE Qumran - library/copyshop shutdown; Jewish c127 CE Aquila - complete TN"K; Jewish c240 CE Origen - Hexapla; Xian A list of the extra-Pentateuch books in the Septuagint: IHSOUS NAUH Joshua, the son of Nun KRITAI Judges ROUQ Ruth BASILEIWN A Kings I. (1 Samuel) BASILEIWN B Kings II. (2 Samuel) BASILEIWN G Kings III. (1 Kings) BASILEIWN D Kings IV. (2 Kings) PARALEIPOMENWN A Chronicles I. PARALEIPOMENWN B Chronicles II. ESDRAS A Esdras I. ESDRAS B Esdras II. (Ezra) NEEMIAS Nehemiah ESQHR Esther IOUDIQ Judith TWBIT Tobit MAKKABAIWN A I. Maccabees MAKKABAIWN B II. Maccabees MAKKABAIWN G III. Maccabees MAKKABAIWN D IV. Maccabees YALMOI Psalms PROSEUXH MANASSH Prayer of Manasseh PAROIMIAI Proverbs EKKAHSIASTHS Ecclesiastes ASMA Song of Solomon IWB Job SOFIA SALWMWN Wisdom of Solomon SOFIA SEIRAX Wisdom of the Son of Sirach WSHE Hosea IWHL Joel AMWS Amos OBDIOU Obadiah IWNAS Jonah MIXAIAS Micah NAOUM Nahum AMBAKOUM Habakkuk SOFONIAS Zephaniah AGGAIOS Haggai ZAXARIAS Zechariah MALAXIAS Malachi HSAIAS Isaiah IEREMIAS Jeremiah BAROUX Baruch QRHNOI Lamentations of Jeremiah EPISTOLH IEREMIOU Epistle of Jeremiah IESEKIHL Ezekiel DANIHL Daniel TWN TRIWN PAIDWN AINESIS Song of the Three Children SWSANNA Susanna BHL KAI DRAKWN Bel and the Dragon All the best - Copyright © 2002, 2004 Yafeu ibn Taom for the Anti-missionary and Messianic Judaism Exposed YAHOO!lists. All rights reserved - ##### ADVERTISEMENT BobI probably won't have much to contribute to the discussionbut I'll try to give my thoughts on your questions here now.A perusal of any non-polemic scholarly books, -- without anagenda or religious bias -- about the DSS will verify what Iwrite below.THE SIGNIFICANCE -A weighty question but a bit vague to me. Significance inprecise relation to what? That might narrow it down to afew points I could reply to. If you examine an inventoryor catalog of the DSS you find many scrolls unconcernedwith TN"K. There are pseudipigraha, a "warehouse" record,sectarian manuals, etc.POINT OF THE DDS -The scrolls of Qumran are just part of a repository. They'remore extensive than the Masada repository. The DSS have Torahand TN"K versions that agree with at least 3 "schools," theMasoretic, the Septuagint, and the Samaritan. The point isthe DSS are a collection not an attempt to define what textis authentic or authorized. The DSS allows us to see thevariety of Jewish thought during the time the sectarian shopat Qumran was open and in operation, the last centuries ofthe 2nd Temple era.COUNTERING THE DSS -I don't think what I wrote counters anything except the mistakennotion that one set of Torah/TN"K texts found at Qumran, and aminority text at that, prove that a "proto-Masoretic" didn't existat the time. The vast majority of Torah/TN"K texts of Qumran are infact supportive of the Masoretic.A minority of such texts are in support of the Septuagint or areactually copies of the Septuagint.A minority of such texts are in support of a "proto-Samaritan."There is even a large minority of Torah/TN"K texts from Qumranthat agree with neither the Septuagint, Samaritan, nor Masoreticbut are unique to the DSS collection. (Josephus gives a verse ortwo from Samuel found only in the DSS.)All the best- Yafeu -

cyberlizard

18th June 2008, 08:55 AM

not to be rude, but any chance you could repost with some punctuation as my eyes are not fantastic.

thanks very much

steve

kivi

18th June 2008, 10:49 PM

not to be rude, but any chance you could repost with some punctuation as my eyes are not fantastic.

thanks very much

steve

kivi says: I don't know how to do what you asked. When I posted it, it had great punctutation and lay-out. The forum 'software' changed it into what you see. I don't know how to post it so what you see doesn't happen again.