Converts to Judaism.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Before people were called Christians they were called converts to Judaism.


Acts 2:11
(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

Acts 6:5
This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, * convert-ed to Judaism.

Acts 13:43
When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 15:3
The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad.

Romans 16:5
Greet also the church that meets at their house. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.


1 Timothy 3:6
He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Acts 24:5
"We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect

Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

[simchat_torah]

mmmm... replacement theoloy.

tasty.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

mmmm... replacement theology.

tasty. Just the simple mention of Jesus makes Orthodox Jews (Hebrews) think of replacement theology. You know what, when I think about all that is written in scripture, I think your right. Throughout the entire bible it talks about replacement in many different ways. In fact there is a great deal of scripture devoted to it. No wonder you guys are paranoid. Well if we were to cut out all of the parts of the bible devoted to it, there would not be much left to the bible, or to talk about. I need to give this some thought.

[simchat_torah]

I have no idea what bible you're reading... cause it certainly doesn't sound like the one on my shelf.

[Kris10leigh]

Wait a minute, guys...why the bickering? Is it not true that the first "Christians" were converts to Judaism? Isn't that point of the Messianics? How is that replacement theology?

[catmommy]

mmmm... replacement theoloy.

tasty.

I hate for this to be my first post in this area, but I am confused. How are these statements replacement theology?

[Kris10leigh]

I hate for this to be my first post in this area, but I am confused. How are these statements replacement theology?
:wave: Welcome, and I'm glad you did!

I looked up replacement theology:

Replacement Theology essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.

Early gentiles converting to Judaism seems like the opposite of replacement theology to me.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I have no idea what bible you're reading... cause it certainly doesn't sound like the one on my shelf. I have a question for Orthodox Jews (Hebrews)? With so much scripture devoted to the subject, it should not have escaped the attention of a well studied Rabbi. I would like to know what your Rabbi's have to say about the fact that a great deal of scripture is devoted to replacement? Because even the Old Testament is devoted to the subject.

It is truly a miracle that Gods word is being fulfilled this way.

[ShirChadash]

Is it not true that the first "Christians" were converts to Judaism? no.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

no. Do you believe that the New Testament and history is wrong?

[ShirChadash]

Do you believe that the New Testament and history is wrong?

:confused: LOL

[visionary]

Sect of Judaism is more accurate

[Kris10leigh]

You guys are all speaking in code. Should this thread be moved to the Messianic Way so that we can all speak freely?

Coming from a Messianic stand point, of course, after Yeshua, gentiles were at first trying to become Jewish, or at least follow Judaism. That was Paul's struggle, wasn't it? To unite these people? What am I missing?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

You guys are all speaking in code. Should this thread be moved to the Messianic Way so that we can all speak freely?

Coming from a Messianic stand point, of course, after Yeshua, gentiles were at first trying to become Jewish, or at least follow Judaism. That was Paul's struggle, wasn't it? To unite these people? What am I missing? Vis is saying that it would be more accurate to call Christianity a: "Sect of Judaism is more accurate."

[visionary]

Acts 24:5
For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

:confused: LOLDeuteronomy 18. The Prophet
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

Isaiah 6:9
He said, "Go and tell this people: " 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12
so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

Acts 28:26
" 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."

Isaiah 28:11.
Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest" ; and, "This is the place of repose"—but they would not listen. 13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there— so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.

14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers
who rule this people in Jerusalem.

15 You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death,
with the grave we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have made a lie our refuge
and falsehood [c] our hiding place."

16 So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

[B]Matthew 11.
27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Acts 24:5
For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: But Yahshua was born in Bethlehem. People thought he was a Nazarite because he grew up there.

[simchat_torah]

any gentile + automatically becoming a Jew without conversion + jesus = replacement theology




congrats! You're all automatically nazarene Jews!

[simchat_torah]

Do you believe that the New Testament and history is wrong
unrelated topic.

NT doesn't say: gentiles = jews

So maybe you're adding something to your nt?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

unrelated topic.

NT doesn't say: gentiles = jews

So maybe you're adding something to your nt? The last times I showed in scripture were it said Gentile conversion = Jew; it got deleted or moved. If you or the others are not qualified to answer me, then send a bunch of Rabbi's to this forum to answer me.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

any gentile + automatically becoming a Jew without conversion + jesus = replacement theology




congrats! You're all automatically nazarene Jews! Ok, so Jesus and the New Testament = replacement theology. But also a very large portion of the Old Testament = replacement theology. I have also in the past posted Old Testament scripture that was removed as replacement theology. Most all of scripture is replacement theology. What do the Rabbi's say about this?

[simchat_torah]

The Rabbis don't have anything to say about it because you're dreaming in lala land if you think the NT or OT says gentiles = jews, without conversion.

then send a bunch of Rabbi's to this forum to answer me.lol, no rabbi would waste their time on your lala land theories that don't exist in written tradition.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

The Rabbis don't have anything to say about it because you're dreaming in lala land if you think the NT or OT says gentiles = jews, without conversion.

lol, no rabbi would waste their time on your lala land theories that don't exist in written tradition. I said "Gentile conversion = Jew." If anyone is in la la land, it's because they ignore scripture.

I don't think a Orthodox Jew (Hebrew) has ever answered my questions, or request. Their always ducking out on me by dodging the question. If you know of any Rabbi's with hudspuhs then send them over here. Don't play dodge with me. Make a stand, if you can.

[ShirChadash]

I said "Gentile conversion = Jew." If anyone is in la la land, it's because they ignore scripture.

I don't think a Orthodox Jew (Hebrew) has ever answered my questions, or request. Their always ducking out on me by dodging the question. If you know of any Rabbi's with hudspuhs then send them over here. Don't play dodge with me. Make a stand, if you can.

Here we go with this again. Always with the claim you can never "get any orthodox Jews to answer" you. MTAA, you know fully well orthodox Jews can, and have, answered you -- and very well -- elsewhere here. You also know our limitations on this particular forum, and that no one will be allowed to answer you pointedly on this thread, while it is here.

[ShirChadash]

I know of no one with any hudspuhs . Is there a treatment for that? Antibiotics?? :D

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Here we go with this again. Always with the claim you can never "get any orthodox Jews to answer" you. MTAA, you know fully well orthodox Jews can, and have, answered you -- and very well -- elsewhere here. You also know our limitations on this particular forum, and that no one will be allowed to answer you pointedly on this thread, while it is here. Neither have I recieved any PM-s.

[ShirChadash]

dat must be becuz I iz not a mayan.

Neither have I recieved any PM-s.

:D

[Steve Petersen]

We can't speak of Judaism in Second Temple times. There were many sects. Therefore we must speak of Judaisms!

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

dat must be becuz I iz not a mayan.



:D Then find a Rabbi man with hudspuhs to answer me. Tell him him your being ate by wild dogs, pooped out over a cliff, and splattered on the rocks below.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

We can't speak of Judaism in Second Temple times. There were many sects. Therefore we must speak of Judaisms!Zechariah 11:8
In one month I got rid of the three shepherds. The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them---

Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees.

[ShirChadash]

You flatter yourself overmuch. LOL

Then find a Rabbi man with hudspuhs to answer me. Tell him him your being ate by wild dogs, pooped out over a cliff, and splattered on the rocks below.
^_^

[Liorah]

Then find a Rabbi man with hudspuhs to answer me. Tell him him your being ate by wild dogs, pooped out over a cliff, and splattered on the rocks below.


You are just disgusting,.

[visionary]

Then find a Rabbi man with hudspuhs to answer me. Tell him him your being ate by wild dogs, pooped out over a cliff, and splattered on the rocks below.Sounds like the scenes of Yom Kippur "strong arm" man dealing with the scapegoat.

[SGM4HIM]

I am always amazed when Replacement theology card is mention first.

Why not start with Remnant theology; which makes less assumptions.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Sounds like the scenes of Yom Kippur "strong arm" man dealing with the scapegoat. They wont escape me, I will take it to other Orthodox Hebrew forums if I have to.

[edb19]

MOD HAT ON


http://dl7.glitter-graphics.net/pub/469/469367makfzcur9b.gif (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)


This thread is starting to drift pretty far from the OP, so time for a reminder:
Address the OP and avoid attacking another CF member and his/her postS. Keep these (in particular) CF rules in mind when posting:


Threads which are off topic for the individual forums are not allowed, and substantial derails of threads are not looked upon in a favorable fashion.
Use the brain God gave you. Think before you post. Think about how your post may affect someone else.
If you think you are being flamed, choose *not* to be offended, but instead take a break, and communicate, rather than escalating or accusing others.

And, as always:
Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one. Colossians 4:6MOD HAT OFF

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

You flatter yourself overmuch. LOL


^_^ And so you invite your Jewish friend to go to the synagogue with you, and you are not interested in witnessing to non Jews. That sounds just fine to me.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I am always amazed when Replacement theology card is mention first.

Why not start with Remnant theology; which makes less assumptions. Did you read from the start of this thread?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Messianic Judaism: "A forum open to Christians and Jews to discuss Messianic Judaism beliefs and issues." That is good news.

[ShirChadash]

And so you invite your Jewish friend to go to the synagogue with you, and you are not interested in witnessing to non Jews. That sounds just fine to me.???

I don't have to invite my Jewish friends to go to synagogue with me. :confused: And no, I absolutely am not interested in "witnessing" to non-Jews. Using scripture to show you where your assumptions are incorrect, though, I can do and have done -- which is just what several people did on the thread you created (again in this forum where non-Messianics are not free to answer at will, and must respect the forum boundaries as they are) that was moved out of this forum so we could answer you freely. Remember that thread, MTAA? http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7237100

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

???

I don't have to invite my Jewish friends to go to synagogue with me. :confused: And no, I absolutely am not interested in "witnessing" to non-Jews. Using scripture to show you where your assumptions are incorrect, though, I can do and have done -- which is just what several people did on the thread you created (again in this forum where non-Messianics are not free to answer at will, and must respect the forum boundaries as they are) that was moved out of this forum so we could answer you freely. Remember that thread, MTAA? http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7237100 Is there anything to prevent an Orthodox Jew (Hebrew) from sending a PM?

[ShirChadash]

I am under the impression that nothing remotely like discussing Judaism, in any way that could be construed as proselytizing, is allowed in PM, much less on any forum. I could be wrong becuz after all I can'ts stand up and PM like a mayan.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I am under the impression that nothing remotely like discussing Judaism, in any way that could be construed as proselytizing, is allowed in PM, much less on any forum. I could be wrong becuz after all I can'ts stand up and PM like a mayan. :doh:

[simchat_torah]

dat must be becuz I iz not a mayan.solution: grow a pair ;)

What I find funny is that it is considered "manly" to hide behind closed doors to make one's conversation. I would have thought, personally, that it takes more courage to discuss the truth openly.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

solution: grow a pair ;)

What I find funny is that it is considered "manly" to hide behind closed doors to make one's conversation. I would have thought, personally, that it takes more courage to discuss the truth openly. I have been open to public conversation, and I have even asked for PM-s. I also have offered to give my e-mail address. I am even open to discuss the subject off forum by invite. But since it is against your religion, I guess there is no hope for that; Because that would be witnessing for you.

[ShirChadash]

solution: grow a pair ;)

What I find funny is that it is considered "manly" to hide behind closed doors to make one's conversation. I would have thought, personally, that it takes more courage to discuss the truth openly. Good point.

[ShirChadash]

I have been open to public conversation, and I have even asked for PM-s. I also have offered to give my e-mail address. I am even open to discuss the subject off forum by invite. But since it is against your religion, I guess there is no hope for that; Because that would be witnessing for you.
:doh:you know we have been more than willing to answer your accusations and assumptions (within basic CF rules) in the unorthodox area. I wonder why you always put your threads here, supposedly seeking the rabbinic Jewish viewpoint, when you know how limited we necessarily must be in answering on this forum.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

:doh:you know we have been more than willing to answer your accusations and assumptions (within basic CF rules) in the unorthodox area. I wonder why you always put your threads here, supposedly seeking the rabbinic Jewish viewpoint, when you know how limited we necessarily must be in answering on this forum. Anyway here we are. And we are getting somewhere. Jesus and the New Testament are thought of as replacement theology by Orthodox Jews (Hebrews.) Well that is note worthy. Now let us look then to the Old Testament. A lot of scripture in the Old Testament is also replacement theology. Shouldn't alarm bells be going off in your head.

Deuteronomy 18. The Prophet
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

Isaiah 6:9
He said, "Go and tell this people: " 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12
so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

Acts 28:26
" 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."

Isaiah 28:11.
Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest" ; and, "This is the place of repose"—but they would not listen. 13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there— so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.

14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers
who rule this people in Jerusalem.

15 You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death,
with the grave we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have made a lie our refuge
and falsehood [c] our hiding place."

16 So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

[B]Matthew 11.
27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28"Come to me, all you who are
weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

There of course is a lot more scripture in the Old Testament. Now if Jesus and the New Testament is all replacement theology, and if a large portion of the Old Testament is replacement theology, then there is not much left to say. Perhaps ChristianForums should re-evaluate the rules on the discussion of the subject.

[Steve Petersen]

MTAA,

You have to put historical context on those scriptures you quoted. Who do they apply to and for how long? What were the circumstances that God was addressing etc. etc, etc.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

MTAA,

You have to put historical context on those scriptures you quoted. Who do they apply to and for how long? What were the circumstances that God was addressing etc. etc, etc. Should I have too. They know their scripture; and look at what time it is. They should not have to be hit in the head with a shovel. All they have to do is study the time prophecies. There is no excuse for them to not know what time it is.

[ShirChadash]

lol. Oh well -- favorite entrenched positions against what Scripture really says... versus clear and unquestionable Truth. Go ahead, spin away.

Should I have too. They know their scripture; and look at what time it is. They should not have to be hit in the head with a shovel. All they have to do is study the time prophecies. There is no excuse for them to not know what time it is.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

lol. Oh well -- favorite entrenched positions against what Scripture really says... versus clear and unquestionable Truth. Go ahead, spin away. Are you saying you don't know what Daniel's 70 week prophecy means.

[Steve Petersen]

The seventy weeks prophecy is another chimera. It's validity depends on where you start and end.

What is the 'decree' and when was it issued. There is no scholarly consensus on it. There were several different ones issued during the time in question.

Neither is there concensus on what year Jesus died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

The seventy weeks prophecy is another chimera. It's validity depends on where you start and end.

What is the 'decree' and when was it issued. There is no scholarly consensus on it. There were several different ones issued during the time in question.

Neither is there concensus on what year Jesus died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks


Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.



a. From the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem: Here Gabriel reveals to Daniel the starting point for the seventy-weeks prophecy. There was a command to restore and build Jerusalem in history that began this specific time period.



. The Bible presents four possible decrees that might fulfill this description:



· Cyrus made a decree giving Ezra and the Babylonian captives the right to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple in 538 b.c. (Ezra in 1:1-4 and 5:13-17)



· Darius made a decree giving Ezra the right to rebuild the temple in 517 b.c. (Ezra 6:6-12)



· Artaxerxes made a decree giving Ezra permission, safe passage, and supplies to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple in 458 b.c. (Ezra 7:11-26)



· Artaxerxes made a decree giving Nehemiah permission, safe passage and supplies to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the city and the walls in 445 b.c. (Nehemiah 2:1-8)



Only the last of these four decrees was a command to restore and build Jerusalem. The first three each focused on the temple, not on the street or on the wall.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Yahshua first comes as the suffering Messiah rejected by the Priesthood. Upon Yahshua's second coming, anything that was not complete will be completed upon his second coming. There is only one Messiah with many roles. He is the one for whom Yahwah made this world. Two days from the final defeat of Israel in 133 AD is 2133 AD. Plus or minus /// When the two witnesses are in the world, God's Holy Spirit will once again be present in this world. He will preform miracles through them. The time of the end will go beyond what people now think. But soon now there will be no more delay in seeing prophecies fulfilled. In our eyes in will be a long drawn out process.

[visionary]

Yahshua first comes as the suffering Messiah rejected by the Priesthood. Upon Yahshua's second coming, anything that was not complete will be completed upon his second coming. There is only one Messiah with many roles. He is the one for whom Yahwah made this world. Two days from the final defeat of Israel in 133 AD is 2133 AD. Plus or minus /// When the two witnesses are in the world, God's Holy Spirit will once again be present in this world. He will preform miracles through them. The time of the end will go beyond what people now think. But soon now there will be no more delay in seeing prophecies fulfilled. In our eyes in will be a long drawn out process.where did you get the idea that 133 is the day to spring board forth ?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

where did you get the idea that 133 is the day to spring board forth ? I had made a algorithm of different times, and a time chart dealing with all of the time prophecies. I kept calculating until I had unity of prophecy times. I still don't know of the day or hour, or even the exact year; only a general time frame.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

where did you get the idea that 133 is the day to spring board forth ? I thought I should mention that I had to solve for three unknowns. In other words three of the time prophecies would not add up with out the key numbers. The key numbers were all the same. I had also found a common denominator. That is all I care to say about the matter.

[visionary]

Are you going to show us this?

[JAS4Yeshua]

MOD HAT ON


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2386/2317951486_f1d0b1ecb6_m.jpg

My puppy wanted to inform you that this thread was moved from Messianic Judaism into The Messianic Way.

She also wanted to remind everyone to stay on topic, and to remember to avoid attacking other members.

MOD HAT OFF

[GerTzedek]

Please, you really don't want to ask him to explain this stuff.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Are you going to show us this? I am not finished with it yet, and I thought I should get a copyright for it. I think I will introduce it as a theory on prophecy. That kind of terminology should be acceptable to Christians. I get tired of hearing about no one knows the day or hour. So I will call it a theory. I don't know if I will finish it this year or not. If I stay off the Internet I could be done in a month, but I'm in no hurry. The only reason for a copyright is just for a record. I don't care if anyone uses it.

[kivi]

Wait a minute, guys...why the bickering? Is it not true that the first "Christians" were converts to Judaism? Isn't that point of the Messianics? How is that replacement theology?

kivi says: According to the New Testament, the 1st followers of the character called Jesus Christ were Native Jews. They were not gentiles converted to Judaism. According to the New Testament, the 1st gentiles interested in following the character called Jesus Christ were brought in by Paul. The question was 'did those gentiles have to convert to Judaism to become followers of Jesus Christ?' The answer was no. Within a generation no identified Jew was a part of Christianity. Christianity had become a totally gentile organization. Paul invented 'replacement theology' to justify/excuse/explain away the dominate position of gentiles in which, until that time, had been an exclusively Jewish [heretical] organization.

[kivi]

I have a question for Orthodox Jews (Hebrews)? With so much scripture devoted to the subject, it should not have escaped the attention of a well studied Rabbi. I would like to know what your Rabbi's have to say about the fact that a great deal of scripture is devoted to replacement? Because even the Old Testament is devoted to the subject.

It is truly a miracle that Gods word is being fulfilled this way.

kivi says: You're gong to have to give actual quotes to support your claim rather than make broad, general, unsupported statements. Until you do, your claim has no merit.

[kivi]

Deuteronomy 18. The Prophet
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

Isaiah 6:9
He said, "Go and tell this people: " 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12
so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

Acts 28:26
" 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."

Isaiah 28:11.
Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest" ; and, "This is the place of repose"—but they would not listen. 13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there— so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.

14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers
who rule this people in Jerusalem.

15 You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death,
with the grave we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have made a lie our refuge
and falsehood [c] our hiding place."

16 So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

Matthew 11.
27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28"Come to me, all [B]you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

kivi says: Throwing around a much of quotes from the Old Testament without any analysis or connection is a waste of time. You can't even connect them to Christianity.

[kivi]

But Yahshua was born in Bethlehem. People thought he was a Nazarite because he grew up there.

kivi says: I have no idea where you come up with the weird idea thay 'Nazarite' and 'Bethlehem' have anything to do with each other. Care to give us some sources????:confused:

[kivi]

The last times I showed in scripture were it said Gentile conversion = Jew; it got deleted or moved. If you or the others are not qualified to answer me, then send a bunch of Rabbi's to this forum to answer me.


kivi says: Since, to my knowledge [and if my knowledge is incorrect, could you please enlighten me], no Jew had any control of the thread you are referring to, what is your point???:confused: Are you blaiming other Christians for deleting your thread?:confused::confused: or is this another smoke screen so you can side-step answering a very clear and honest question?:confused::confused::confused:

[kivi]

Ok, so Jesus and the New Testament = replacement theology. But also a very large portion of the Old Testament = replacement theology. I have also in the past posted Old Testament scripture that was removed as replacement theology. Most all of scripture is replacement theology. What do the Rabbi's say about this?

kivi says: Not even the erroneous Old Testament verses you have quoted have anything to do with replacement theology.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: I have no idea where you come up with the weird idea thay 'Nazarite' and 'Bethlehem' have anything to do with each other. Care to give us some sources????:confused: The Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. Although Yahshua was born in Bethlehem, he was raised a Nazarene.

[kivi]

I said "Gentile conversion = Jew." If anyone is in la la land, it's because they ignore scripture.

I don't think a Orthodox Jew (Hebrew) has ever answered my questions, or request. Their always ducking out on me by dodging the question. If you know of any Rabbi's with hudspuhs then send them over here. Don't play dodge with me. Make a stand, if you can.

kivi says: By the time you finish one of your rants, its pretty hard to have any clear understanding of what you are saying.

In Judaism the conversion/naturalization process can only take place according to Torah Law. This requires for men a bris, for both men and women it requires mikvah and the approval of reliable/kosher Bas Din. Based on Jewish Law, no heretical sect, like the early Jewish followers of Jesus Christ, could have ever gotten a court that would be considered by the rest of the Jewish Community as reliable/kosher. Therefore, there is no possbility of a gentile converting to being a follower of Jesus Christ by going through a Lawful/Torah Jewish conversion. Paul was stuck with not converting gentiles to Judaism as an intermeditary step in getting them approved as followers of Jesus Christ because the Jewish Community would not have recognized the conversions.

[kivi]

We can't speak of Judaism in Second Temple times. There were many sects. Therefore we must speak of Judaisms!

kivi says: While there were several Jewish sects, they wre not all created equally.

The Pharisees were by far the largest grouping, being about 95% of the Jews world wide: the vast majority of the Jews in Eretz Israel; the only Jewish sect in the Babel part of Persia, which was the largest Jewish Community in the world at the time; and at least 50% of the Jews in the Greco-Roman Mediterranean world. Of all of the Jewish sects, the only one that was still in existance after the 2nd Jewish War was the Pharisees. All other Jewish sects had vanished and/or assimulated.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: By the time you finish one of your rants, its pretty hard to have any clear understanding of what you are saying.

In Judaism the conversion/naturalization process can only take place according to Torah Law. This requires for men a bris, for both men and women it requires mikvah and the approval of reliable/kosher Bas Din. Based on Jewish Law, no heretical sect, like the early Jewish followers of Jesus Christ, could have ever gotten a court that would be considered by the rest of the Jewish Community as reliable/kosher. Therefore, there is no possbility of a gentile converting to being a follower of Jesus Christ by going through a Lawful/Torah Jewish conversion. Paul was stuck with not converting gentiles to Judaism as an intermeditary step in getting them approved as followers of Jesus Christ because the Jewish Community would not have recognized the conversions. Thank you for your answer Kivi.

[kivi]

Zechariah 11:8
In one month I got rid of the three shepherds. The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them---

Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees.

kivi says: It is sad watching someone make stuff up out of their own imagination without any basis in fact. The Sadhedrin was not a Jewish sect, it was the name of the supreme Torah Court in Eretz Israel. The Sadducees did not exist in Zechariah's time, they were 600 years later. And the Pharisees, as part of the Torah True Tradition existed, its just the name 'Pharisee' did not come into being for another 300 years. The 'three shepards' are clearly referred to in the Tanach as the idol worshiping kings of both the Northern and Southern Kingdoms and their successors, all of whom were murdered in the same year. You really have to start using a Tanach rather than the inaccurate Christian Old Testament. The Old Testament is never an accurate representaion of the Jewish Scriptures. And, you really have to start taking history seriously or you'll keep making a fool of yourself.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: It is sad watching someone make stuff up out of their own imagination without any basis in fact. The Sadhedrin was not a Jewish sect, it was the name of the supreme Torah Court in Eretz Israel. The Sadducees did not exist in Zechariah's time, they were 600 years later. And the Pharisees, as part of the Torah True Tradition existed, its just the name 'Pharisee' did not come into being for another 300 years. The 'three shepards' are clearly referred to in the Tanach as the idol worshiping kings of both the Northern and Southern Kingdoms and their successors, all of whom were murdered in the same year. You really have to start using a Tanach rather than the inaccurate Christian Old Testament. The Old Testament is never an accurate representaion of the Jewish Scriptures. And, you really have to start taking history seriously or you'll keep making a fool of yourself.The Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees were the shepherds of Israel in 35 AD.

[kivi]

And so you invite your Jewish friend to go to the synagogue with you, and you are not interested in witnessing to non Jews. That sounds just fine to me.

kivi says: "Witnessing" is an exclsuively Chrstian Missionary thingee. Its purpose is to get converts. Jews are forbidden by Judaism to actively seek converts. In fact, if gentiles, of their own will, want to convert to Judaism, they are to be actively discouraged to do so. Also, Christianty believes its god has created a Hell were sinners will be tortured for all eternity. Judaism rejects such a sadistic concept of the diety. Judaism does not have A Hell nor are sinners punished forever. Judaism also does not have Original Sin or the Devil. Judaism believes that "All of B'nai Israel and the righteous of the Nations [gentiles] have a portion in Olam Habah[the World toCome]." Therefore, the entire idea of 'witnessing' is repugant to Jews and Judaism.

[kivi]

Is there anything to prevent an Orthodox Jew (Hebrew) from sending a PM?

kivi says: Yes, there is. If a forum is set up in such a way that some members have an structural advantage over other members, then to send PM's when that type of structural discrimination comes into play means to accept that structural limitation as moral or correct. Personally, I can not do that and remain true to the truth or justice or fairplay. I will not be ghettoized or marginalized. And I will not accept discimination passively. Never Again!!!

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: "Witnessing" is an exclsuively Chrstian Missionary thingee. Its purpose is to get converts. Jews are forbidden by Judaism to actively seek converts. In fact, if gentiles, of their own will, want to convert to Judaism, they are to be actively discouraged to do so. Also, Christianty believes its god has created a Hell were sinners will be tortured for all eternity. Judaism rejects such a sadistic concept of the diety. Judaism does not have A Hell nor are sinners punished forever. Judaism also does not have Original Sin or the Devil. Judaism believes that "All of B'nai Israel and the righteous of the Nations [gentiles] have a portion in Olam Habah[the World toCome]." Therefore, the entire idea of 'witnessing' is repugant to Jews and Judaism. I am a Judaeo Christian. I do not believe in Trinitarism, Hell or the Sunday Sabbath. Judaism used to witness to win converts about 2000 years ago. But now days Orthodox Judaism has become a Jews (Hebrews) only club.

[kivi]

^_^I thought I should mention that I had to solve for three unknowns. In other words three of the time prophecies would not add up with out the key numbers. The key numbers were all the same. I had also found a common denominator. That is all I care to say about the matter.

kivi says: What we have here is someone inventing their own prophecies. ^_^ They can't even the original in the original language, but they are inventing prophecies. :P It is this type of 'religion-of-one' that makes Christianity so fragmented. Everybody claims their right to believe and do anything they want to. :doh: There is no consensus of action [some believe in abortion and some don't]:doh:, there is no consensus in theology [just compare Unitarians, Mormans and Presbytarians]:doh:, there is no consensus in behavior [they'll eat anything]:doh:. From the very beginning of Christianity, men have sat in rooms calcutating the 'end-of-time and none, none, none have gotten it right. Now MTAA joins that group. How sad and how pitiful.:o

[kivi]

I am a Judaeo Christian. I do not believe in Trinitarism, Hell or the Sunday Sabbath. Judaism used to witness to win converts about 2000 years ago. But now days Orthodox Judaism has become a Jews (Hebrews) only club.

kivi says: That is not true. There is no source that talks about Jews actively 'itinessing'. That is a Missioanry dream. The only example of 'conversion' existed during the Hasmonean times when the Edomites were forcebly converted by Yochanan Hyrkanus. The Rabbis actively fought the Hasmonean govt to stop the effort. They failed. Herod was eventually the result.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

^_^

kivi says: What we have here is someone inventing their own prophecies. ^_^ They can't even the original in the original language, but they are inventing prophecies. :P It is this type of 'religion-of-one' that makes Christianity so fragmented. Everybody claims their right to believe and do anything they want to. :doh: There is no consensus of action [some believe in abortion and some don't]:doh:, there is no consensus in theology [just compare Unitarians, Mormans and Presbytarians]:doh:, there is no consensus in behavior [they'll eat anything]:doh:. From the very beginning of Christianity, men have sat in rooms calcutating the 'end-of-time and none, none, none have gotten it right. Now MTAA joins that group. How sad and how pitiful.:o You over looked the fact that I said, "theory." As for people disagreeing, that will always be true. No matter if the person is correct.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Now go away Kivi, your being a pest. But again, thank you for your answers.

[kivi]

The Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees were the shepherds of Israel in 35 AD.

kivi says: The Sadducees were Roman collaborationists who bribed the occupying Roman army every year so as to control the position of Chief Preist and through that position, the Temple because the Temple was the biggest cash cow in Eretz Israel. They actively sought to support the Roman occupation of Eretz Israel. They were NO 'shepards'. Sanhedrin was no longer functioned by 35 AD, having been taken over by the Sadducees and then put out of operation by the Romans. Of course, the Pharisees were the vast majority of the Jews in the world. The term 'Pharisee' does not refer to a leadership role like 'shepard'. The term 'Pharisee' refers to those Jews, leaders and followers, who sought a more fulfilling Torah True spiritual experience while seperating themselves from the corrupt Roman occupation.

[kivi]

The Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. Although Yahshua was born in Bethlehem, he was raised a Nazarene.


kivi says: You still haven't shown how they relate.

[kivi]

You over looked the fact that I said, "theory." As for people disagreeing, that will always be true. No matter if the person is correct.

kivi says: I am not overlooking anything. No matter how you try to wiggle out, in Christianity, everybody has an opinion and none have any more authority than anyone else. It is a total free for all. That is not the case in Observant Judaism. It is not a free for all. Behavior always achieves consensus, theology always achieves consensus. In Judaism, discussion leads to consensus, in Christianity, discussion leads to more sectarianism and fragmentation.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: The Sadducees were Roman collaborationists who bribed the occupying Roman army every year so as to control the position of Chief Preist and through that position, the Temple because the Temple was the biggest cash cow in Eretz Israel. They actively sought to support the Roman occupation of Eretz Israel. They were NO 'shepards'. Sanhedrin was no longer functioned by 35 AD, having been taken over by the Sadducees and then put out of operation by the Romans. Of course, the Pharisees were the vast majority of the Jews in the world. The term 'Pharisee' does not refer to a leadership role like 'shepard'. The term 'Pharisee' refers to those Jews, leaders and followers, who sought a more fulfilling Torah True spiritual experience while seperating themselves from the corrupt Roman occupation. All three functioned at that time of the Roman occupation.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: You still haven't shown how they relate.Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. "

Matthew 2:1
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

Deut 18:15.
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: I am not overlooking anything. No matter how you try to wiggle out, in Christianity, everybody has an opinion and none have any more authority than anyone else. It is a total free for all. That is not the case in Observant Judaism. It is not a free for all. Behavior always achieves consensus, theology always achieves consensus. In Judaism, discussion leads to consensus, in Christianity, discussion leads to more sectarianism and fragmentation. Perhaps you are not aware that many Jews (Hebrews) won't join the Orthodox Jews (Hebrews), but instead form their own groups.

[jaihare]

Perhaps you are not aware that many Jews (Hebrews) won't join the Orthodox Jews (Hebrews), but instead form their own groups.

The end result of leaving Torah is always assimilation. Give it two generations and their families will not be Jewish. They will marry non-Jews, adopt non-Jewish customs, and soon their children and grandchildren will no longer be Jewish. It's the result of leaving Torah Judaism. Where are the first Christians who were converted from Judaism (not to Judaism as some claimed in the beginning of this thread)? They ceased being Jewish and blended into the nations completely.

Jason

[ShirChadash]

Now go away Kivi, your being a pest. But again, thank you for your answers.
It's interesting that you holler for answers, and when someone gives them to you in detail, you tell them to go away because the person is being a "pest".

Well answered on all counts, BTW, Kivi.

[ShirChadash]

The end result of leaving Torah is always assimilation. Give it two generations and their families will not be Jewish. They will marry non-Jews, adopt non-Jewish customs, and soon their children and grandchildren will no longer be Jewish. It's the result of leaving Torah Judaism. Where are the first Christians who were converted from Judaism (not to Judaism as some claimed in the beginning of this thread)? They ceased being Jewish and blended into the nations completely.

Jason

Entirely true.

Nice to see you posting, here, Jason.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

The end result of leaving Torah is always assimilation. Give it two generations and their families will not be Jewish. They will marry non-Jews, adopt non-Jewish customs, and soon their children and grandchildren will no longer be Jewish. It's the result of leaving Torah Judaism. Where are the first Christians who were converted from Judaism (not to Judaism as some claimed in the beginning of this thread)? They ceased being Jewish and blended into the nations completely.

Jason Leaving Orthodox Judaism = Messianic Judaism. Most Jews (Hebrews) in the world won't join the Orthodox Jews (Hebrews), because they have repeatedly led the people down a dead end.

[ShirChadash]

Leaving Orthodox Judaism = Messianic Judaism. Most Jews (Hebrews) in the world won't join the Orthodox Jews (Hebrews), because they have repeatedly led the people down a dead end.

Hahaaa -- no. Leaving Orthodox Judaism can result in going "into" a hundred chosen paths, including going into another religious path or becoming an agnostic or an atheist. Leaving normative Judaism does NOT automatically equal going into messianicism. That's an interesting assertion. :D However, I believe the point being made here is that the further one goes from following and obeying HaShem's Holy Torah and mitzvot, the more assimilated one will be into avodah zara, foreign cultures and their religious practices.

[ShirChadash]

Leaving Orthodox Judaism = Messianic Judaism. Most Jews (Hebrews) in the world won't join the Orthodox Jews (Hebrews), because they have repeatedly led the people down a dead end.There is no difference between Jews and (Hebrews) -- which we all know.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Hahaaa -- no. Leaving Orthodox Judaism can result in going "into" a hundred chosen paths, from going into another religious path to becoming an agnostic or an atheist. Leaving normative Judaism does NOT automatically equal going into messianicism. That's an interesting assertion. :D However, I believe the point being made here is that the further one goes from following and obeying HaShem's Holy Torah and mitzvot, the more assimilated one will be into avodah zara, foreign cultures and their religious practices. Six on one, half a dozen on the other, tic for tac. Everyone believes what they want to. The only real important question is, are the scriptures being fulfilled. Where is the Messiah, and who is he? Because Yahshua did not fulfill scripture to your satisfaction, you reject The Word of God. Just because errors can be found in any believers, that does not mean they are wrong about everything they believe. You find fault with others, without seeing your own: (Orthodox.) Judaism is not a social club, nor for secret societies.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

There is no difference between Jews and (Hebrews) -- which we all know. Then are all Hebrews followers Judaism? If not, then there is a difference.

[kivi]

I am a Judaeo Christian. I do not believe in Trinitarism, Hell or the Sunday Sabbath. Judaism used to witness to win converts about 2000 years ago. But now days Orthodox Judaism has become a Jews (Hebrews) only club.

kivi says: Then what do you need Jesus Christ for:confused::confused::confused:

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivi says: Then what do you need Jesus Christ for:confused::confused::confused:Hmm. To be Saved? :wave:

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be being hated by all thru the Name of Me. The one yet enduring into a-finish/teloV <5056>, this one shall be being saved [Daniel 12]

Reve 15:1 And I perceived another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous. Messengers, seven, having stripes/blows, seven, the last, that in them is finished/etelesqh <5055> (5681) the fury of the GOD

[kivi]

You over looked the fact that I said, "theory." As for people disagreeing, that will always be true. No matter if the person is correct.

kivi says: Unfortunately, 'theory' has a grab bag of street level definitions. Mostly sarcasitic at the fundamentalist Christian level. I have no idea which one you are using, except that you are using it not to take responsiblity for what you are claiming is true.

[kivi]

All three functioned at that time of the Roman occupation.

kivi says: Again, you are ignoring the facts. Of course, Sadducees 'functioned'. They controlled the Temple. The problem was they were not 'shepards'. Of course, the Pharisees 'functioned', they were Judaism. Its the Sanhadrin that did not 'function' because the Romans took away all of its power to make judicial rulings. The Sadducees and the Pharisees were 'sects', 'functionality' does not apply. It is the Sanhedrin, which was not a sect, but a judaicial body, were the concept of 'functionality' would apply. Your handle on the meaning of English words is always fairly sloppy. You really need to tighten it up. Do you have a dictionary to do so? And, please, please, get your history right.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: Unfortunately, 'theory' has a grab bag of street level definitions. Mostly sarcastic at the fundamentalist Christian level. I have no idea which one you are using, except that you are using it not to take responsibility for what you are claiming is true. The reason Christianity is so fragmented or trampled upon in the world, is because of secret societies. If not for that, people would see the full bloom of scripture fulfilled.

[kivi]

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. "

kivi says: Again, you are confusing verb tenses. Bethlehem was a Moabite city during the time period of Ruth and it was the city from which she came. Ruth is the ancestor of Dovid Amelech and therefore, the ancestor of Moshaich, by definition. It is pretty obvious that the ploting of the New Testament is set up to maximize the number of 'prophecies' concerning the Messiah. The problem is that the New Testament can not get the big 5 down: 1/ Moshiach will be a descendent of Dovid Amelech, 2/ he will re-build the Temple, 3/ he will bring all the Jews back to Eretz Israel, 4' he will est, as King, a Torah True government, 5/ he will bring world peace and harmony under the authority of G-d. So, by trying to 'pick up' the little prophecies, the New Testament is playing a slight-of-hand, trying to distract from the fact that the Big 5, the only ones that count, are a failure. As for the rest of your quotes. They just do not apply for Judaism. Either because they are not from the Torah and have no authority for a Jew or because, as noted above, it does not apply to Jesus Christ.


Matthew 2:1
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

Deut 18:15.
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

[kivi]

Perhaps you are not aware that many Jews (Hebrews) won't join the Orthodox Jews (Hebrews), but instead form their own groups.

kivi says: :o

[kivi]

It's interesting that you holler for answers, and when someone gives them to you in detail, you tell them to go away because the person is being a "pest".

Well answered on all counts, BTW, Kivi.

kivi says: :blush:

[kivi]

Leaving Orthodox Judaism = Messianic Judaism. Most Jews (Hebrews) in the world won't join the Orthodox Jews (Hebrews), because they have repeatedly led the people down a dead end.


kivi says: Well, you sell your snake oil. There is nothing so closed minded as a person who will not face reality.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: Again, you are confusing verb tenses. Bethlehem was a Moabite city during the time period of Ruth and it was the city from which she came. Ruth is the ancestor of Dovid Amelech and therefore, the ancestor of Moshaich, by definition. It is pretty obvious that the ploting of the New Testament is set up to maximize the number of 'prophecies' concerning the Messiah. The problem is that the New Testament can not get the big 5 down: 1/ Moshiach will be a descendent of Dovid Amelech, 2/ he will re-build the Temple, 3/ he will bring all the Jews back to Eretz Israel, 4' he will est, as King, a Torah True government, 5/ he will bring world peace and harmony under the authority of G-d. So, by trying to 'pick up' the little prophecies, the New Testament is playing a slight-of-hand, trying to distract from the fact that the Big 5, the only ones that count, are a failure. As for the rest of your quotes. They just do not apply for Judaism. Either because they are not from the Torah and have no authority for a Jew or because, as noted above, it does not apply to Jesus Christ.


Kivi, this prophecy is about the future. Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. " [B]Please pay attention to the part maked in red.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: Well, you sell your snake oil. There is nothing so closed minded as a person who will not face reality. You said it.

[kivi]

Six on one, half a dozen on the other, tic for tac. Everyone believes what they want to. The only real important question is, are the scriptures being fulfilled. Where is the Messiah, and who is he? Because Yahshua did not fulfill scripture to your satisfaction, you reject The Word of God. Just because errors can be found in any believers, that does not mean they are wrong about everything they believe. You find fault with others, without seeing your own: (Orthodox.) Judaism is not a social club, nor for secret societies.

kivi says: What we have here is conspiracy theory. It is impossible to talk with someone who holds such opinions, because, for them, there is no bottom line to reality. There is always another layer of conspiracy, deeper and deeper, to explain everything away.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: What we have here is conspiracy theory. It is impossible to talk with someone who holds such opinions, because, for them, there is no bottom line to reality. There is always another layer of conspiracy, deeper and deeper, to explain everything away. Very well then. Let's not talk to each other. Good by Kivi, and have a nice day.

[kivi]

Then are all Hebrews followers Judaism? If not, then there is a difference.

kivvi says: Judaism/B'nai Israel is not a faith community, one is not part of Judaism/B'nai Israel based on belief. One is part of Judaism/B'nai Israel based on birth or conversion/naturalization. Therefore, the artifical distinction: Jew/Hebrew is false.

[kivi]

Hmm. To be Saved? :wave:

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be being hated by all thru the Name of Me. The one yet enduring into a-finish/teloV <5056>, this one shall be being saved [Daniel 12]

Reve 15:1 And I perceived another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous. Messengers, seven, having stripes/blows, seven, the last, that in them is finished/etelesqh <5055> (5681) the fury of the GOD

kivi says: LLOJ, I was very specifically refering to MTAA's statements that he did not believe in a forever Hell and that he was not a trinitarian. Based on that claim, I was asking him and him alone, why did he need Jesus Christ. I was not asking you. Usually, I like to take on all comers, but this series of posts is specifically for MTAA. Sorry.:sorry:

[kivi]

The reason Christianity is so fragmented or trampled upon in the world, is because of secret societies. If not for that, people would see the full bloom of scripture fulfilled.

kivi says: And who is your favorite 'secret society'?

[kivi]

Kivi, this prophecy is about the future. Micah 5:2

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. " Please pay attention to the part maked in red.



kivi says: The problem is that you keep using a corrupt English Christian translation which has no authority for Judaism. We use the Tanach, you use the Old Testament, two very different texts. The Tanach told you that the person referred to is Ruth ["from ancient times"] who we all know is the ancester of Dovid Amelech who will be the answer of Moshaich. But that does not mean everybody born in Bethlehem is Moshiach. And, if Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem [for which there is no evidence], he did not do the BIG 5, so, by definition, he is not Moshiach.

[ShirChadash]

:oThe reason Christianity is so fragmented or trampled upon in the world, is because of secret societies. If not for that, people would see the full bloom of scripture fulfilled.
uhm... uh... :confused:

[Steve Petersen]

:o
uhm... uh... :confused:

Yeah...I know..

Easy to see why this thread is going nowhere.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: The problem is that you keep using a corrupt English Christian translation which has no authority for Judaism. We use the Tanach, you use the Old Testament, two very different texts. The Tanach told you that the person referred to is Ruth ["from ancient times"] who we all know is the ancester of Dovid Amelech who will be the answer of Moshaich. But that does not mean everybody born in Bethlehem is Moshiach. And, if Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem [for which there is no evidence], he did not do the BIG 5, so, by definition, he is not Moshiach. Now why would God speak through the prophet many years after Ruth saying: WILL COME. Is or was Ruth the ruler of Israel?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I find that people who do not believe that there is secret societies are fools or are members, or have close famliy members involved in such. Which one are you?

[ShirChadash]

:wave: da he-mayan is in da hiz-ouse.

[ShirChadash]

You seem to find a lot of things that are simply questionable, unprovable, or indicate you are a member of a secret society yourself. Take your pick.
I find that people who do not believe that there is secret societies are fools or are members, or have close famliy members involved in such. Which one are you?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I think someone needs a tinfoil hat. I have better things to do than listen to people play stupid. Mods please close or delete this thread.

[ShirChadash]

I have better things to do than listen to people play stupid. Mods please close or delete this thread.MTAA -- you're the one who accused everyone on this thread of either being fools or are members, or have close famliy members involved in such.

If you have better things to do than deal with people who are playing stupidly, then why initiate such discussion?

And as usual, you go crying for your thread to be deleted when you have been answered fairly and in depth by Jews, because you can't handle the notion of not "winning" at the arguments and you want to continue to say that "no orthodox Jews will ever answer" your questions. As I said on the other thread you tried to have deleted recently:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7237100&page=32

If for no other reason but to remain as a proof to you that Orthodox Jews CAN and DO argue from Scripture, it had best remain. Just because you don't care for the fact that we have been able to argue well against your every claim, doesn't mean you should ask for the thread to be removed if it doesn't please you. Once you open the thread for discussion, we are free to answer your accusations and we have, MORE than successfully. Removing it is clearly nothing but a face-saving request on your part.

[ShirChadash]

It is quite unfair to the rest of the posters in these sorts of threads, who invest time and energy writing up answers to you and discussing the issues you bring up, for you to run about getting the threads deleted then, when you later feel you do not like the discussion, MTAA.

I have a better idea -- I'll stand up like a mayan and retract my comment, and you retract yours, okay? Mine is going poof, right now. Are you willing to stand up like a mayan and poof your post calling us all fools or worse?

[kivi]

Now why would God speak through the prophet many years after Ruth saying: WILL COME. Is or was Ruth the ruler of Israel?


kivi says: Christianity seems to think prophecy is some from of crystal ball gazing or tea leaf reading. It is not. The Novi in this case is giving a history/political lesson, reminding everybody of the standard messianic party line that Moshaich will come from the House of Dovid which starts with Ruth in Bethleham. Its really not that complicated if you start from a Jewish/Torah context rather than a Christian/New Testament context. It only gets confusing when you force a non-Jewish philosophy into the mix, like Christianity tries to do.

[kivi]

I find that people who do not believe that there is secret societies are fools or are members, or have close famliy members involved in such. Which one are you?
kivi says: Apparently, all three. ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^

[kivi]

I have better things to do than listen to people play stupid. Mods please close or delete this thread.

kivi says: It had been my experience that when MTAA gets into a dead end, he calls on the Moderators to pull him out. I think that this case is a perfect opportunity for the moderators to be fair and just and not do so. If MTAA does not what to discuss any more, then he can just leave. But to call on the moderators to protect himself from himself is an attempted abuse of power. I think that the moderators should resist such efforts.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

MTAA -- you're the one who accused everyone on this thread of either being fools or are members, or have close famliy members involved in such.

If you have better things to do than deal with people who are playing stupidly, then why initiate such discussion?

And as usual, you go crying for your thread to be deleted when you have been answered fairly and in depth by Jews, because you can't handle the notion of not "winning" at the arguments and you want to continue to say that "no orthodox Jews will ever answer" your questions. As I said on the other thread you tried to have deleted recently:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7237100&page=32

If for no other reason but to remain as a proof to you that Orthodox Jews CAN and DO argue from Scripture, it had best remain. Just because you don't care for the fact that we have been able to argue well against your every claim, doesn't mean you should ask for the thread to be removed if it doesn't please you. Once you open the thread for discussion, we are free to answer your accusations and we have, MORE than successfully. Removing it is clearly nothing but a face-saving request on your part. I'm sorry, I must be going blind. Now where are these chapters and verses from scripture that you are showing me. PS. I did not say anyone here is a fool. I asked this question: QUOTE: "I find that people who do not believe that there is secret societies are fools or are members, or have close famliy members involved in such. Which one are you?" Kivi said she is all three. Now what about you?

[kivi]

I'm sorry, I must be going blind. Now where are these chapters and verses from scripture that you are showing me. PS. I did not say anyone here is a fool. I asked this question: QUOTE: "I find that people who do not believe that there is secret societies are fools or are members, or have close famliy members involved in such. Which one are you?" Kivi said she is all three. Now what about you?


kivi says: Your ignorance just astonishing. 'Kivi' is a common nickname in Judaism. It stands for R' Akiva who was a male. Your question, in all of the three choices, is insulting and a lie. I answered 'yes' to all three questions to trap you in that lie, which I did. It is bad enough that you should insult and lie about us, but to drag our families into your insults and lies is beyound the Pale. As for your rude and ignorant manners, when you called for moderator intervention, you referred to all of us 'stupid'. You flame and flame and flame and when you are called on your bad behavior you go whining to the moderatores to protect you. How childish. As for your blindness, may I suggest 'emes' as the solution. You were given a site in ShirCadash's post. Use it.