OMJRA-Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Assoc.

[Lulav]

Well I am glad after thinking about it that they thought us not connected to the Christianity in the other forums to move us here. This organization also thinks this way. And interesting read, let me know what you think. ( highlighting done by yours truely.

About The OMJRA

The OMJRA is a theologically conservative association of Messianic Jewish rabbis who willingly accept the yoke of Torah upon our lives. It has been our collective experience that in choosing to live in obedience to HaShem's will within the greater Messianic community, we are often accused of "Judaizing" or being labeled legalists. Some have even accused us of trying to re-build the "middle wall of partition". None of this is true. As members of this association we believe that we are accountable to one another in accordance with scripture, and as talmidim of Y'Shua Ha'Mashiach we are bound to live by his example and teaching.
How The OMJRA Defines Messianic

Unfortunately, the word “Messianic” has changed from its historical meaning. Historically this word was synonymous with Judaism in that Judaism was and is forever linked with the belief in messiah.
In recent years the term Messianic has become less Jewish and more Christian in its definition. As a result the term Messianic has been redefined in away that has removed the term from the realm of Jewish thought into the realm of Christian thought.
The members of the Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Association, want to reverse this trend and return the word “Messianic” to its historical & traditional meaning.
Therefore, you will not find traditional Christian teachings on this web site. (:clap:) The members of the OMJRA are Jewish. In fact, we are Torah-observant Jews who cling to the ancient promise of a Jewish messiah. As a result, the OMJRA members do not subscribe to Christian doctrines or beliefs. Our members do not seek to make converts to Christianity of our fellow Jews. Rather our members seek to promote Torah observance to our people and to promote an understanding of Torah through out the nations.

The OMJRA's Two Primary Goals

The first goal of this association is to establish a network via the Internet for the purpose of providing continued education, training, encouragement, and support to our members. Further more we hope to provide counsel, share informational resources, and create an interactive forum where members can meet to discuss halakic issues that are so critical to the well being and continued growth of the Torah-observant Messianic community.
The second and most important goal is to promote the validity and necessity of Torah observance amongst the leadership of the Messianic Movement in general. We realize that these are lofty goals but we remain confident, not in our own abilities, but in the sovereignty of Ha'Shem and the obedience of those who hear His voice.


:amen::thumbsup:

[GerTzedek]

I am curious about this new group. It has four congregations, so I'm wondering what is even going on that they find a need to form a new group. It is interesting in that it insists that it's membership is JEWISH, yet observant -- a combination unusual in the messianic world.

What I also found unusual in it's statement of belief's (a tweaking of the Rambam's 13 principles) is that apparently given principle #3, they reject the notion that JC is G-d?????


3. We believe with complete faith that the Creator, Blessed is His Name, is not physical, and is not affected by physical phenomena, and that there is no comparison whatsoever to Him.


There are some things confusing to me.

One is that the site lists as one of its congregations Havurah Ami Echad in Independence, Kansas, describes itself on its own website as being affiliated with the M'kabbalim Yisroel chassidic community.

Another thing is that Congregation Petah Tikvah is hardly what I would call a Jewish congregation. It is a First Fruits congregation. It states on its website:
Properly observed, Messianic Judaism has no middle wall of partition separating Jewish believers from Gentile believers. Most Messianic assemblies have a high percentage of Gentiles. Most of these Gentiles love Israel and the Jewish people and have adopted a Jewish expression of their faith in Messiah Yeshua. What you basically have is a Jewish leader teaching gentiles how to act like Jews, not anything like the Jewish community OMJRA purports to be.

The other two congregations do not have internet sites.

The fact that two out of four congregations listed are in direct contradiction with the stated paramaters of the group makes me wonder if the entire group isn't bogus.

[GerTzedek]

On a different note, "Messianic" has never been "un-Jewish." Messiah is talked about in my shul all the time. But Jewish understanding of Messiah doesn't include ideas about him being G-d or being a sacrifice for sins. Those are ideas uniquely Chrstianity, not Judaism.

[Henaynei]

they are not all that new - they have been around for at least 15 years....

it is not bogus.... it is struggling with the Jew/Gentile issue as all groups and authorities within MJism who are Observant do.... it ain't pretty to say the least.... such struggle never is....

the fact that they only have 4 congregations speaks more to the fact that they are not attractive to most of the "messy" groups.... something that speaks in their favor imho

as for Petah Tikvah - I have known Richard Chamberlin for a great many years..

as to the passage you quote..... what he is saying is that IN SO FAR AS A RELATIONSHIP (aka salvation, in the context of those who believe Yeshua is Moshiakh) with HaShem is concerned that there is no "partition" or separation or favortism between Jew and Gentile --- he does NOT advocate Messianic Gentiles calling themselves Jews in any way.... that is NOT what that passage is saying....

as for the other group you mention I don't know them

[GerTzedek]

So Heneynai:

You seem to be somewhat familiar with at least one of the congregations. What is the reason for forming a new group in the first place? Why have they diverged from the two main groups? For example, if Torah observance is what they want, why are they not a part of UMJC?

[Henaynei]

So Heneynai:

You seem to be somewhat familiar with at least one of the congregations. What is the reason for forming a new group in the first place? Why have they diverged from the two main groups? For example, if Torah observance is what they want, why are they not a part of UMJC?quite simple - because neither of the "two" groups is willing to take a firm stand on having Jews lead MJism, or having Torah as the primary stone in their foundation of faith....

As you are well aware, even Rabbi Dauermann is having difficulty getting his ideas and views accepted by the leadership and body of UMJC...

For a very small but growing number lip service to Torah observance is no longer enough....

the OMJRA predates the "Torah observant" stance of the UMJC by nearly 10 years.... it is NOT new.... they have been around for well over 15 years.....

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[ChavaK]

I gave the site a quick glance...
I see several problems with it.

First it is so offensive that they have changed Maimonides 13 Principles of faith:

Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Association Statement of Faith:

The following 13 Principles as set forth by Rabbi Maimonides, with reservation as to Principle 12 (We have adjusted Principle 12 in accordance with our belief and understanding.) is a summary of what our members believe.

12. We believe with complete faith that Y'shua HaMashiach has come and with great joy we anticipate His return, and even though He may delay, nevertheless we think about His return every day.I really wish there was a way of slapping a law suit against them for this; but alas
I do not believe it possible. How offensive and insulting to Torah, Maimomides and
Jews to do this.

Second, I wonder how "Jewish" it's members are. Their definition of "who is a Jew"
is not halachic:

Petahtikvah:

If one or both parents were (or are) Jewish, the individual is considered Jewish
This is from the website of one of their member churches.
I would assume this declaration would be acceptable to OMJRA
since they allow this congregation to be under it's umbrella.

Offensive. I am not impressed.

[Henaynei]

they don't pretend to be Orthodox, halakic or perfect..... other groups of Judaism use the same definition for who is a Jew, as do various anti-semitic groups - halakic it is not, true enough.....

[ShoshanaUK]

On a different note, "Messianic" has never been "un-Jewish." Messiah is talked about in my shul all the time. But Jewish understanding of Messiah doesn't include ideas about him being G-d or being a sacrifice for sins. Those are ideas uniquely Chrstianity, not Judaism.

I'm just wondering about the Lubavitche movement - I have heard that some belive their rebbe to have been HaShem, but that is still considered acceptable Judaism.

[ChavaK]

I'm just wondering about the Lubavitche movement - I have heard that some belive their rebbe to have been HaShem, but that is still considered acceptable Judaism.

I am associated with Chabad and I have never heard anyone say the Rebbe
was G-d. Some do believe he is the moshiach, but that is a vocal minority.

The belief that G-d would come in the form of a man is not acceptable
to any sect of Judaism....
:wave:

[fremen]

There are quite a few Chabadnikim who believe that way - granted, not yet any big figures within Chabad, but growing fast. I know of one local rabbi who admitted to me he believes that way, though he said he fears persecution because the people are not ready to understand how this is not idolatry.

Some of their favorite quotes:
"The Rebbe was not created; the Rebbe has always been around and always will be."


"When the messiah reveals himself, those who didn't see him won't be saved…"


"The Rebbe is not something different from God - the Rebbe is a part of God."


"We cannot connect to God directly - we need the Rebbe to take our prayers from here to there and to help us in this world. We are told by our rabbis that a great man is like God and the Rebbe was the greatest man ever. That is how we know he is the messiah, because how could life continue without him? No existence is possible without the Rebbe."



"…You can pray to the Rebbe and he will answer, and he was around since the beginning of time. But you must be careful to pray only to the Rebbe as a spiritual entity and not the body that was born in 1902."



"…There is no clear place where the Rebbe ends and God begins."


"God chose to imbue this world with life through a body. So that's how we know the Rebbe can't have died, and that his actual physical body must be alive. The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical."
Anyway, here's a couple of links for ya:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=824393
http://thanbook.blogspot.com/2006/04/chabad-rebbe-and-god.html
http://rebbegod.blogspot.com/

I am associated with Chabad and I have never heard anyone say the Rebbe
was G-d. Some do believe he is the moshiach, but that is a vocal minority.

The belief that G-d would come in the form of a man is not acceptable
to any sect of Judaism....
:wave:

[ChavaK]

There are quite a few Chabadnikim who believe that way - granted, not yet any big figures within Chabad, but growing fast. I know of one local rabbi who admitted to me he believes that way, though he said he fears persecution because the people are not ready to understand how this is not idolatry.

I do know Chabadniks who believe the Rebbe is moshiach, but I have
never met one who believes he is G-d. Some of the quotes you presented
are a bit ambigous, but if any one in Chabad believes the Rebbe is G-d,
he is, in my opinion, definitely involved in avodah zarah.

[fremen]

Agreed. But the ambiguity fades away when you consider it was taken from a site which calls itself "Rebbe God" ;)

I do know Chabadniks who believe the Rebbe is moshiach, but I have
never met one who believes he is G-d. Some of the quotes you presented
are a bit ambigous, but if any one in Chabad believes the Rebbe is G-d,
he is, in my opinion, definitely involved in avodah zarah.

[ChavaK]

Agreed. But the ambiguity fades away when you consider it was taken from a site which calls itself "Rebbe God" ;)

Yep, that would definitely remove all ambiguity, LOL.

I'll have to go check out the site....

[kivi]

I do know Chabadniks who believe the Rebbe is moshiach, but I have
never met one who believes he is G-d. Some of the quotes you presented
are a bit ambigous, but if any one in Chabad believes the Rebbe is G-d,
he is, in my opinion, definitely involved in avodah zarah.

kivi says: ChavaK: The small number of CHABAD's that thought that the Rebbe was the revealed Messiah and could not accept the reality of his death and were expecting a resurrection were expelled from CHABAD. They lost teaching jobs at CHABAD schools, they were removed from the boards of directors of CHABAD organizations, they no longer exist within the CHABAD structure. CHABAD, like several other Chassidic groups who lost a charasmatic rebbe, is a rebbe-less Chassidic group.

[ChavaK]

kivi says: ChavaK: The small number of CHABAD's that thought that the Rebbe was the revealed Messiah and could not accept the reality of his death and were expecting a resurrection were expelled from CHABAD. They lost teaching jobs at CHABAD schools, they were removed from the boards of directors of CHABAD organizations, they no longer exist within the CHABAD structure. CHABAD, like several other Chassidic groups who lost a charasmatic rebbe, is a rebbe-less Chassidic group.


I will have to disagree- they are a small number, but they are vocal
and if you have been to Crown Heights, you've seen the Rebbe is
Moshiach signs including one inside the shul at 770 (although I must
admit I haven't been in it for a couple years, so maybe it is gone now).
They've had court battles, and AFAIK the battle continues. They
need to stamp it out once and for all. But again, I have never heard
a Lubavitcher claim the Rebbe is G-d.

I wonder why a new rebbe was never appointed....Chassidism revolves
around rebbes, and seems strange when they no longer have them...

[kivi]

I will have to disagree- they are a small number, but they are vocal
and if you have been to Crown Heights, you've seen the Rebbe is
Moshiach signs including one inside the shul at 770 (although I must
admit I haven't been in it for a couple years, so maybe it is gone now).
They've had court battles, and AFAIK the battle continues. They
need to stamp it out once and for all. But again, I have never heard
a Lubavitcher claim the Rebbe is G-d.

I wonder why a new rebbe was never appointed....Chassidism revolves
around rebbes, and seems strange when they no longer have them...

kivi says: There are several Chassidic groups that are rebbe-less. CHABAD is now the most famous, but not the only one. They have cleaned out their own organization, not much they can do with someone after they have been kicked out. I taught in a Lubavitch school for 14 years and I occasionally pick the brains of some of my older students [the 35-45 year old crowd]. Mostly, it was a fight between the old/European princely families and the new Americanized crowd. The princely families won and the new America-ized Bal Tzuevah crowd who had been in the forefront of much of the "We Want Moshiach Now" campaign either joined or were out on their tushes. Most joined> The princely families had been very good in making sure their childern married into the new American-ized crowd>>> very much a "Our Crowd" battle, lots of generational and assimuation over-tones. Now, not all fit into what I have just described, not by a long shot, but if I were doing a doctorate on the whole thing, that is where I would start. In fact, it could be a neat study on the effects of modernity on a traditional society. Small number of participants, easily managed time span, clearly deliniated issues, limited geographic area, easily recognized actors.

[fremen]

Simply not true. In South America, very few Chabad centers are NOT meshichists. Last month there was even a 770 event in which they celebrated what they called "the rebbe's concealment" (they wouldn't use the term "death")

They certainly didn't lose any position, or status, within the group. In fact, they are growing fast and steady.

Besides, almost everyone within Chabad believes the Rebbe is mashiach. What gets confusing to outsiders is that not all of them believe that he is the "revealed" mashiach as you said. Some say that this revelation, that the Rebbe is mashiach, is for a later time. Others actually believe the Rebbe is mashiach but deny it because they believe this shouldn't be revealed by them (I don't know, however, how they believe this is different from lying. But they probably have found some excuse within their own halachah.)

Those in constant touch with Chabad, such as myself, know that the number of Meshichists is anything but small.

Now believing in the Rebbe's deity is a whole different matter.

Kol tov,
Fremen.

kivi says: ChavaK: The small number of CHABAD's that thought that the Rebbe was the revealed Messiah and could not accept the reality of his death and were expecting a resurrection were expelled from CHABAD. They lost teaching jobs at CHABAD schools, they were removed from the boards of directors of CHABAD organizations, they no longer exist within the CHABAD structure. CHABAD, like several other Chassidic groups who lost a charasmatic rebbe, is a rebbe-less Chassidic group.

[kivi]

kiv i says: I trust my own involvement in CHABAD over yours. As I have said, I am not a CHABAD-nick. I am your ordinary modern-ish Young Israel type of Observant Jew. But what you are selling is not the CHABAD I am familar with. I just do not believe you.


Simply not true. In South America, very few Chabad centers are NOT meshichists. Last month there was even a 770 event in which they celebrated what they called "the rebbe's concealment" (they wouldn't use the term "death")

They certainly didn't lose any position, or status, within the group. In fact, they are growing fast and steady.

Besides, almost everyone within Chabad believes the Rebbe is mashiach. What gets confusing to outsiders is that not all of them believe that he is the "revealed" mashiach as you said. Some say that this revelation, that the Rebbe is mashiach, is for a later time. Others actually believe the Rebbe is mashiach but deny it because they believe this shouldn't be revealed by them (I don't know, however, how they believe this is different from lying. But they probably have found some excuse within their own halachah.)

Those in constant touch with Chabad, such as myself, know that the number of Meshichists is anything but small.

Now believing in the Rebbe's deity is a whole different matter.

Kol tov,
Fremen.

[chanahs]

It sounds like it depends on where you live. South America sounds more like the way it is here in Israel. The meshichists definitely have a presence here. They come through my neighborhood during different times of the year to have little camps for the children. Kefar Chabad is primarily meshichist. I personally know a number of people in good standing at their shul who are meshichists. There are billboards all over, including on the side of the buses, indicating that R' Shneerson is the messiah. They also have flags here that people wave outside their homes to the same effect. People are definitely not ashamed of this believe or hide it.