Jerusalem Council

[visionary]

The new Jerusalem Council
http://www.JerusalemCouncil.org

Discuss Messianic apologetics, torot, mishpatim, midrashim, scriptures, and halakha with the global Body of Messiah at this central discussion board and chat room for believers worldwide!

The Vision
The vision of the Jerusalem Council project is to bring into one online community the scattered and divided faithful remnant of Israel - the believers of Yeshua (Jesus) on the earth today - in order to provide them a central place with which to engage one another in discussion, dialogue, and debate on the issues that unite and divide them, and to edify one another in walking out their faith in the Messiah through unconditional love as modeled by the Messiah, and expected of his followers.

The vision also includes the hope of re-appointing a beit din for Messianic believers worldwide, to be called the Jerusalem Council, or Beit HaDin HaYerushalmi, modeled after the original, and submitted to the new Jewish Sanhedrin in issues that do not contradict obedient faith to Messiah Yeshua or his teachings; to provide guidance in issues that may conflict with the Sanhedrin, or in issues that contradict the primacy of the written Word of God, or in issues which may divide the Body of Messiah; to promote the unity of the Body of Messiah worldwide by Spirit-led direction through means of accountability, open dialogue, reasoned doctrine, and sound leadership; and to provide corporate and individual edification by providing apologetic, midrashic, and halakhic guidance for the Body of Messiah.

The Purpose
The purpose of the Jerusalem Council is to promote the unity of the global Body of Messiah through reasoned justice (rulings), abundant mercy (humble servant-leadership), and faithfulness (to the Messiah and His Ways), in Truth and Love, by providing a central place for Messianic believers worldwide to discuss scripture, traditions, issues, and other topics that face us, and through such dialogue provide a means for midrashic (apologetic), and halakhic (discipleship) guidance so that our lifestyle and theology may be of one accord with the bible (Torah - Law, Netuvim - Prophets, Ketuvim - Writings, and the Sh'liac Ketuvim - Apostolic Writings), and with one another - so that the Body of Messiah may be unified and made ready for the return of King Messiah Yeshua.

[Torah613]

Vis, is it really helpful to link to this guy who both messianics and rabbinic Jews found to be a fraud? Where's the constructive value?

yochanan

[Henaynei]

I post there - but avoid a significant portion of the threads as I find much of the owner's theology circular and self-serving and not a little superior in attitude - while he denies being 2House or successionism - but that IS the effect of his base theology, imo.... and no one on that board, or the "volunteers" have the education, training or sh'mikah to be making halakhic determinations... again, imo

[visionary]

It was a thread that could not be heard in the other area of the forum, and this place allows such subjects to be discussed from both angles... not that this fellow has a chance of making a significant change but the validity of the concept itself.

[visionary]

The ONE issue and one time in the Bible of anything being discussed by the Jerusalem Council, and that was whether adult Gentile men had to be circumcised before they could become part of the congregation of Messianic Way. Some Jews from Judea (probably Messianic Pharisees) interpreted the Scriptures to say that they did, and these men went to Antioch to teach that requirement. Meanwhile, Paul and Barnabas disagreed with this Pharisaic halakic ruling and went to Jerusalem to see what the consensus of the apostles and elders was regarding this matter. After much discussion, including a speech against adult circumcision by the apostle Peter, James issued an overriding halakic decision that adult circumcision was NOT required of Gentiles. However, he did lay down commands that they abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from eating strangled animals, and from eating blood. These four requirements were not a replacement for the Mosaic Law, but rather guidelines on how Gentiles could be accepted into fellowship with Jews in the synagogues on the Sabbath. It was here that James envisioned the Gentiles learning the Law of Moses with the intention of obeying it.

While you may not like the guy whose website I gave for a background for this discussion, it is the concept, that I want considered.

[Torah613]

I doupt very highly that it was chr*stian "pharisees" as the pharisees were very big on the Noachide laws and not converting goyim to Judaism. It was actually more difficult at that time to become a Jew under the pharisees than it is today.

Yochanan

[GerTzedek]

The Jerusalem Council is pitiful. It's just another wannabe group attempting to say there is no difference between Israel and the nations.

[Henaynei]

no, the Jerusalem Council *never* said gentiles could become Jews - what they DID say is that Gentiles didn't have to *become* Jews to have a living relationship with the Living G-d - not all that different than what you mentioned the Sanhedrin was saying at the time about Gentiles and the Noakhides in another thread :)

[GerTzedek]

Uh, we are having semantic difficulties. I am saying the website Jerusalem Council is pitiful, and tries to erase the difference between Israel and the nations. The Council at Jerusalem in Acts 15 did the opposite: it stated quite clearly that gentiles did not need to be circumsized nor observe covenant, but rather needed only observe a few specific laws (which were later repeated in Acts 21).

[Henaynei]

Uh, we are having semantic difficulties. I am saying the website Jerusalem Council is pitiful, and tries to erase the difference between Israel and the nations. The Council at Jerusalem in Acts 15 did the opposite: it stated quite clearly that gentiles did not need to be circumsized nor observe covenant, but rather needed only observe a few specific laws (which were later repeated in Acts 21).ah.... so we agree :)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

BTW - my ISP is down - has been for days - up here it is the only ISP available..... so, I'll be on VERY sporatically, as I can get to the library irregularly :)

[kivi]

kivi says: What you have to keep in mind is that the 'ruling' of James is just a re-hash of the 7 Laws of the Noachite Commandmetns given to Noach by G-d after the Flood and required of all gentiles, no matter what their religious affiliation is/was. So, James was not coming up with anything new, just a re-statement of what G-d, through the Torah and the Noviim, had demanded from the beginning. It was a non-ruling ruling. It just re-stated the status quo. What James did, in effect, was take Christianity out of Judaism and make it gentile under the strictures of the Noachite Commandments/Mitzvahs. Of course, the early Church after the 1st generation did not know that a fast one had been pulled on it. So, in their arrogant manner, they just kept charging ahead.


The ONE issue and one time in the Bible of anything being discussed by the Jerusalem Council, and that was whether adult Gentile men had to be circumcised before they could become part of the congregation of Messianic Way. Some Jews from Judea (probably Messianic Pharisees) interpreted the Scriptures to say that they did, and these men went to Antioch to teach that requirement. Meanwhile, Paul and Barnabas disagreed with this Pharisaic halakic ruling and went to Jerusalem to see what the consensus of the apostles and elders was regarding this matter. After much discussion, including a speech against adult circumcision by the apostle Peter, James issued an overriding halakic decision that adult circumcision was NOT required of Gentiles. However, he did lay down commands that they abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from eating strangled animals, and from eating blood. These four requirements were not a replacement for the Mosaic Law, but rather guidelines on how Gentiles could be accepted into fellowship with Jews in the synagogues on the Sabbath. It was here that James envisioned the Gentiles learning the Law of Moses with the intention of obeying it.

While you may not like the guy whose website I gave for a background for this discussion, it is the concept, that I want considered.

[visionary]

Of course, the early Church after the 1st generation did not know that a fast one had been pulled on it. Explain.. please

[GerTzedek]

kivi says: What you have to keep in mind is that the 'ruling' of James is just a re-hash of the 7 Laws of the Noachite Commandmetns given to Noach by G-d after the Flood and required of all gentiles, no matter what their religious affiliation is/was. So, James was not coming up with anything new, just a re-statement of what G-d, through the Torah and the Noviim, had demanded from the beginning. It was a non-ruling ruling. It just re-stated the status quo. What James did, in effect, was take Christianity out of Judaism and make it gentile under the strictures of the Noachite Commandments/Mitzvahs. Of course, the early Church after the 1st generation did not know that a fast one had been pulled on it. So, in their arrogant manner, they just kept charging ahead.
kivi, you are the best. I would only add that Paul, because of his phariseeical training, most likely understood the ins and outs of rabbinical laws regarding gentiles and their lack of need for conversion to Judaism. It would have been the less educated albeit passionate who would have been the Judaizers of gentiles.

Folks, the long and short of it is this: gentile believers only needed to enter into the lifestyle of a G-d Fearer. The fact that Acts specifically mentions Cornelius as a G-d Fearer should clue you in to the pre-existence of this category in Judaism of a gentile who can, though not part of Israel, have a share in the world to come.

[kivi]

kivi says: What you have to keep in mind is that the 'ruling' of James is just a re-hash of the 7 Laws of the Noachite Commandmetns given to Noach by G-d after the Flood and required of all gentiles, no matter what their religious affiliation is/was. So, James was not coming up with anything new, just a re-statement of what G-d, through the Torah and the Noviim, had demanded from the beginning. It was a non-ruling ruling. It just re-stated the status quo. What James did, in effect, was take Christianity out of Judaism and make it gentile under the strictures of the Noachite Commandments/Mitzvahs. Of course, the early Church after the 1st generation did not know that a fast one had been pulled on it. So, in their arrogant manner, they just kept charging ahead.

visionary says: Explain.. please

kivi says: I am still working this out. So, excuse me if I am a little slopping in my analysis. James takes early Christianity out of Torah Judaism and puts it under the 7 Mitzvahs of the Noachide Torah. The Jews at the time would have gotten that. But the gentiles, like Paul, might not have gotten it. They thought they were being given equal status with the Jews in early Christianity. So, time passes, the Jews who knew of the deal die out and there are no Jewish 2nd generation. The original Jews can not pass on their 'conversion experience' to their children. The 2nd generation are all gentile converts to Chirstianity and the childern of gentile converts to Christianity who think that they are eqvilent to the Jews. And nobody in Christianity knows that Chirstianity was taken out of Judaism. And no more Jews become Christian. In effect, the Jewish Community, world wide, rejects the Christian message. They follow James' ruling. And, in doing so, the idea of equal footing is dumped. What does that leave the gentile Christians with? Not much. The Jews have rejected Chirstianity, there is no equal footing of Jew and gentile because there are no Jews in Christianity. The gentiles, to thier way of thinking, are left out in the cold one more time. There are several possible reactions to that. One, of course, is to go to the Jew and accept Jewish leadership, as Torah imagaines will happen with Moshiach. But that requires humility and gratitude. And admiting that Christianity just doesn't cut it. Or, the other possbilty, to hide that inferiorty & go on the offensive, and in the case of Christianity in regards to Judaism, the violent offensive. It is that 2nd possibllity that has driven Christianity since. I would imagine that the collective memory of Chirstianity is pretty confused on the matter, alternatively attracted by the purity of the Jewish message and repelled by the need to admit that Christianity fails. Violent mass progroms, aggressive and deadly conversion campaigns, constant civic discrimination are all part of the Christian effort to wipe out the source of Christianity's shame. We will see.

[visionary]

If the noahides, which are not believers in Yeshua today, were believers then, where is the history of such a people. Nazarene group do have an identifiable history within the first to second century and love for Yeshua. For your theory to be valid, there has to be evidence, even in persecuted records.

[GerTzedek]

If the noahides, which are not believers in Yeshua today, were believers then, where is the history of such a people. Nazarene group do have an identifiable history within the first to second century and love for Yeshua. For your theory to be valid, there has to be evidence, even in persecuted records.
Start with Cornelius, recorded quite clearly as a G-d Fearer. No record of circumcision or other indication of Jewish conversion or reason to believe he ever changed his status from G-d Fearer.

[kivi]

kivi says: I don't think that Paul was a Jew. I think he was a well educated gentile who had some knowledge of Judaism and envied the Jews. You will find them all round NYC. Mimicing the Jews and their urban sophistication and hating them and their urban success, all at the same time. No gentile hates the Jews as much as the one who wishes he were one. I think Paul was not too clear on what Judaism thought on a lot of subjects, so a little Greek mystery cult and a little Sadducee ritualism and a little Pharisee morality all got inter-woven into a major psychic event and his collapse on some road leading somewhere. A little time in the desert and he's off to save the world and spread his particular synthesis of Judeo-Greco-Roman mystery cults. You meet that type on these forums all of the time. The lost, the ignored, the uneffectual who have got it 'all-figured-out'. And the more they brag, the more you know how out-of-it they are. Anyhow, Paul is brilliant, driven and clever and much more comfortable with his own, urban gentiles in the Mediterranean Greco-Roman cities which he came out of who he can fool that he is a Jew a lot more than the boys back in Jerusalem who he stays away from as much as he can. And he passes on his brand which becomes the dominant majority in Christianity while the boys in Jerusalem just die out with no successors. Any oral tradtion from the boys in Jerusalem that might have been is gone, vanished into the mist, never to be re-captured. So, who knows what was original Christianity? Not Paul. Paul stays away from the original 12 like the plague. Not his gentile coverts to Christainity who never go back to Jerusalem to check in with the pitiful remenant of the original 12. A little bit here and a little bit there? How about a big nothing, everywhere! Paul wants a gentile Christianity as much as James. I have no idea if they worked together on the matter. I doubt it. But, even without meeting and agreeing, they unspoken wants worked perfectly together. Paul's spiritual inferiorty, Jew envy and self loathing becomes the baseline for Christianity. Its the Jew haters, the gentile wanna-bes, the Replacement crowd, the direct intellectual and emotional successors of Paul, who win the internal contest on what Christainity will be, finally sealed by the pagan Roman Emperor and the Church lackies who sense a chance at the civic police and military power of the Roman Empire to finally settle some old scores with the Jews. Welcome to the next 1800 years of world history.


kivi, you are the best. I would only add that Paul, because of his phariseeical training, most likely understood the ins and outs of rabbinical laws regarding gentiles and their lack of need for conversion to Judaism. It would have been the less educated albeit passionate who would have been the Judaizers of gentiles.

Folks, the long and short of it is this: gentile believers only needed to enter into the lifestyle of a G-d Fearer. The fact that Acts specifically mentions Cornelius as a G-d Fearer should clue you in to the pre-existence of this category in Judaism of a gentile who can, though not part of Israel, have a share in the world to come.

[kivi]

If the noahides, which are not believers in Yeshua today, were believers then, where is the history of such a people. Nazarene group do have an identifiable history within the first to second century and love for Yeshua. For your theory to be valid, there has to be evidence, even in persecuted records.

There is no record that as a general category, Noachites believed in Jesus Christ, during the period of the early Church. There might have been some individuals in the category of righteous gentiles who believed in Jesus Christ. Again, there is no record of such individuals. The Roman govt made it a policy to settle retired army personal in frontier areas for protection/loyalty purposes. Eretz Israel was such an area, bordering on the Perisa Empire as it did. It had many state sponsored Greco-Roman military colonies. There was a lot of inter action between the Jewish and the gentile Communities. And a lot of gentile interest in the much higher and more human Jewish morality systems. And a fairly large community of righteous gentiles who had grown out of that interaction. There are also records of righteous gentiles during the previous royal/prophetic period. For any gentile to reside in Eretz Israel, during the royal/prophetic period, without becoming a Jew, required them take on a wide range of Mitavahs just to live in the Jewish Nation and deal with a Torah True government and society. That earlier category stops with the Babylonian/Persian conquest of B'nai Israel.

There were Jewish followers of Jesus Christ [the 12 and their followers] but their existance stops with the 1st generation. There is no record of any 2nd generation Jewish followers of Jesus Christ. By the time of the destruction of the 2nd Temple, which tracks with the end of the 1st generation of Jewish followers of Jesus Christ, Christianity is exclusively gentile and hostile to all Jews and Judaism.

[visionary]

Let's start here...
"…We gather that this system was adopted by the Nazarenes, the leadership of the visiting teachers being given to Peter, while James the brother of Jesus was elected Nasi, or president of the Supreme Council, both on account of his kinship to the Messiah and his noted piety." (Schonfield, Hugh (1938). The History of Jewish Christianity From the First to the Twentieth Century. Book out of print, pp. 14-15.)

[visionary]

The Nazarenes, whose existence in the fourth century is attested to by Jerome, appear to be the direct descendants of the Christian community of Jerusalem who migrated to Pella.

[visionary]

The Churches in Gaul, appear to have been facilitated by the heavy concentration of Jews around Marseilles and Genoa, over the period 100-300 (see Gilbert Atlas of Jewish History, Dorset Press, 1984, map 17). These communities were obviously in contact with the heavy concentrations of Jews in Ephesus and Smyrna. The movement up the Rhone from Marseille to Lyons the Metropolis and centre of communication for the whole country, is no doubt a result of the Jewish participation in commerce. The demands of the community are probably what prompted the dispatch of Pothinus and Irenæus to Lyons, from Polycarp in Smyrna. Thus there was a Sabbath-keeping Church established in Lyons prior to the persecution of Marcus Aurelius in 177. Lyons was the centre of the Churches in Gaul when Irenæus was bishop. The Churches of Gaul wrote to Rome over the Quartodeciman controversy (see Eusebius Hist. Eccl., V, xxiii) in support of the Asian bishops concerning the introduction of Easter.

[visionary]

Irenaeus' book against heresies is one of the earliest sources for Ebionium (late second century). Epiphanius (late 4th century) has quotes from the "Gospel of the Ebionites" in his book the Panarion, 30.13.1-8; 30.14.5; 30.16.5; 30.22.4, along with a general description of the Ebionites (which is of not uniform reliability). Also, all Jewish Christianity was lumped together as Ebionite by later critics. Of genuine interest are the traditions associating the Ebionites with certain villages east of the Sea of Galilee in the years after the Jewish War.

[visionary]

Hence I would recommend the synthesis of Ebionite beliefs by

Hans Joachim Schoeps
Jewish Christianity: Factional Disputes in the Early Church
Philadelphia, Fortress Press, 1969

by
Russell Gmirkin
to: orion@pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: The Essene Name
From: RGmyrken@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:28:23 -0400
http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/orion/a.../msg00531.html

[visionary]

"Ebionites ('Poor Ones'): Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah but kept many of their Jewish practices and split with Paul over his dismissal of Mosaic law or Torah. They believed that Jesus was human but not divine, accepted only the Gospel of Matthew, and disappeared after the 5th century. "Occhiogrosso, Peter. The Joy of Sects: A Spirited Guide to the World's Religious Traditions. New York: Doubleday (1996); pg. 386-387.

[visionary]

"Remnants of Jewish Christianity survived in various places in Palestine, Syria and Egypt until the 5th century. Its members clung to the original tenets of their faith, being characterized by their observance of the Mosaic Law, their belief that Jesus was of human origin, and their hostility to Paul. They are known only through the garbled and prejudiced accounts of orthodox Christian writers, who regarded them as heretics. They are named either as Ebionites or Nazarenes, and various strange beliefs and customs are ascribed to them; it is likely that some groups did adopt Gnostic ideas or held beliefs that stemmed from the Qumran Covenanters. "Cavendish, Richard (ed.). Man, Myth & Magic: An Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Supernatural (vol. 6). New York: Marshall Cavendish Corp. (1970); pg. 768.

[visionary]

According to Epiphanius, they rejected orthodox Christian beliefs about the divinity of Jesus, were vegetarians, opposed animal sacrifice, and rejected certain texts in the Jewish scriptures (most especially, those pertaining to animal sacrifice). They were loyal to the Mosaic law, but had an idiosyncratic view of that law. They called themselves Ebionites (based on ebionim, "the poor") because, they said, at the time of the apostles they gave all their possessions to the early church (Acts 4:32-35). The Ebionites claimed to have the biological relatives of Jesus among their own number, described by ancient writers as the "desposynoi" ("those who belong to the master").

[visionary]

The internal evidence of the scrolls does not make the Essenes "ordinary joes." The so-called Temple Scroll suggests that they had a dream of rebuilding a new Temple of visionary dimensions after razing Herod's to the ground. The Copper Scroll suggests they had knowledge of the whereabouts of many Temple treasures and connections to some elements of the priesthood, although they had fierce opposition to the wealthy, elite, pro-Roman, Hellenizing Sadducean Temple establishment. They had a very particular Messianic expectation of the arrival of two "twin Messiahs": the "Aaronic Messiah" would be the legitimate anointed high priest and he would herald the "Davidic Messiah" who would restore the true sacred kingship. The War Scroll suggests that they had a vision of a cosmic conflict between the forces of light and darkness: the Gentile "kittim" or Romans against the "sons of light," namely, the Essenes. Other scrolls interpret biblical prophecies to describe current political events, offer strange apocalyptic and eschatological predictions, and incorporate some of the "pseudepigraphal" and "apocryphal" material of the Intertestamental Period. And the "Damascus" Document suggests that their leader, the Teacher of Righteousness, was persecuted by an illegitimate member of the priesthood they called the Wicked Priest, and put to death.

[visionary]

Robert Eisenman, an independent scholar, notes that more may be at stake than just academic defensiveness. Eisenman notes that many of the names used by the Essenes to refer to themselves -- Zadokim (the Just), Ebionim (the Poor), Nazoreans (the Pure), Hasideans (Zealous for the law), etc. -- are also some of the appellations used by the entity known as the "early Church" or "Jewish-Christians" or "Jerusalem Church." Eisenman believes that the Zealots, Essenes, Nazoreans, etc. were all just names for one single movement with different aspects, but very specific goals: restoration of the legitimate anointed (Meshiach) king and high priest, expulsion of the Roman occupation and the pro-Roman Herodians and Sadducees, and religious reconstruction. Jesus, then, may have been a legitimate dynast (his genealogy from the line of David is given in two of the Synoptic Gospels), and a real political threat to the Romans , not the religious authorities of the Sanhedrin. After his death, Eisenman notes, Jesus' followers coalesced behind his brother James the Just, who may well have been the Essene Teacher of Righteousness; he was put to death by the pro-Roman high priest Phinehas, who is an excellent candidate for the Wicked Priest.

[visionary]

Eusibius, in the fourth century, is the first to explicitly mention the exodus by the believers: "The people belonging to the church at Jerusalem had been ordered by an oracle revealed to approved men on the spot before the war broke out, to leave the city and dwell in a town of Peraea called Pella" (EH III:5).

[visionary]

According to Hegessipus (as recounted by Eusebius), Simeon was killed about 106 C.E. during a time of persecution under the emperor Trajan (Ecclesiastical History 3:32). One intent of this persecution, which began with an order by Domitian, was to eliminate all Jews of the Davidic line, which would have included the desposyni among the Jewish followers of Yahshua. Hegessipus recounts Domitian's initial concern about the Davidic line within the Messianic Jews:


"Now there still survived of the family of the Lord grandsons of Judas, who was said to have been his brother according to the flesh, and they were delated as being of the family of David. These the officers brought to Domitian Caesar, for like Herod, he was afraid of the coming of the Christ [= "Messiah"]. He asked them if they were of the house of David and they admitted it. Then he asked them how much property they had, or how much money they controlled, and they said that all they possessed was nine thousand denarii between them, the half belonging to each, and they said that they did not possess this in money but that it was the valuation of only thirty-nine plethra [= about a quarter of an acre] of ground on which they paid taxes and lived on it by their own work." They then showed him the hardness of their bodies, and the tough skin which had been embossed on their hands from their incessant work. They were asked concerning the Christ ["Messiah"] and his kingdom, its nature, origin, and time of appearance, and explained that it was neither of the world nor earthly, but heavenly and angelic, and it would be at the end of the world, when he would come in glory to judge the living and the dead and to reward every man according to his deeds. At this Domitian did not condemn them at all, but despised them as simple folk, released them, and decreed an end to the persecution. But when they were released they were the leaders of the churches, both for their testimony and for their relation to the Lord, and remained alive in the peace which ensued until Trajan" (Ecclesiastical History 3:19-20).

[visionary]

In AD 132, the last great revolt of the Jews against Roman rule took place under the political leadership of Simon Bar Kosiba. Kosiba proclaimed himself king and his followers referred to him as Simon Bar Kochba, Simon Son of a Star, making an allusion to a messianic prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures. This was a revolt that could not be readily supported by those Jews who regarded Yashua as the true Messiah, and this sticking point probably represents the true beginning of the reidentification of Christianity as one of several Jewish denominations to a truly separate, non-Jewish religion. Bar Kochba insisted that Jewish Christians must accept his role as the Jewish Messiah and imposed the death penalty on those who refused to do so. Thus, the adherance of Jewish Christians to the belief that Yashua had been the true Messiah placed them outside the fold. Jewish Christians referred to Bar Kosiba derisively as Bar Koziba, "Son of a Lie". Bar Kochba, for his part, considered the refusal of Jewish Christians to recognize his messianic status as treason and ordered them tortured or killed if they did not accept him and curse Yashua (Justin, 1 Apol. 31). From this point on, the split between Christianity and Judaism was irrevocable.

[visionary]

Thomas is said to have begun preaching the gospel to the already existing Jewish settlers in the Malabar Coast and other locals. According to the Acts of Thomas, the first converts made by Thomas in India were Malabari Jews, who had settled in Kerala since the time of King Solomon of Israel. David de Beth Hillel, 1832; Lord, James Henry, 1977; Thomas Puthiakunnel 1973; 'Acts of Thomas' Bevan, 1897., Koder S. 1973;

[visionary]

Thomas converted many South Indians who continued to practice Christianity until present. It was further consolidated by the arrival of Syriac Jewish-Christians now known as Knanaya people in the second century C.E. This ancient ethnic Christian community of Kerala is known as Nasrani or Syrian Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knanaya

The Hebrew term Knanaya or K'nanaim, also known as Kanai or Qnana'im, (for singular Kanna'im or Q'nai) means "Jealous ones for God". The K'nanaim people are the biblical Jews referred to as Zealots (overly jealous and with zeal), who came to Cana from the southern province of Israel. They were deeply against the Roman rule of Israel and fought against the Romans for the sovereignty of the Jews. During their struggle the K'nanaim people become followers of the Jewish sect led by 'Yeshua Nasrani' (Jesus the Nazarene). After the crucifixion of Jesus by the Romans in 33 CE, the Knanaya intensified their struggle against the Roman rule.

[visionary]

Now if you have some historical documents to point to your version, I would like to see it.

[visionary]

Then things get obscure during the dark ages and it does not mention the noahide laws but gives an indication that they were more of the one law for all believers... “The name of Pasagini was used in a twofold sense, viz., a definite Jewish-Christina sect was thus named; then it was also the general application for all the heretics, who all moved back and forth more or less, but chiefly the Cathari and Waldensians. This they did partly to spread their doctrines, and partly to escape the snares of their enemies.” Geschichte der Ketzer, 3,5

The papal bulss, especially those of Gregory I, and Gregory VII, and Nicolas I, are our chief source of information concerning the Pasagini. Aside from these, we have but two leading notices in Catholic histories of heretics. One is found in the writings of Bonacursus against the heretics, entitled “Against the Heretics, Who are Called Pasagii.” Its contents are as follows”--

“Not a few, but many know what are the errors of those who are called Pasagini, and how nefarious their belief and doctrine are. But because there are some who do not know them, it does not annoy me to write what I think of them, partly from precaution and for their salvation, and partly for their shame and confusion, in order that their foolishness might become more widely known, and that they might be the more condemned and despised of all. As we ought to know the good in order to do it, so likewise should we know the evil that we might shun it.

“Let those who are not yet acquainted with them, please note how perverse their belief and doctrine are. First, they teach that we should obey the law of Moses according to the letter-- the Sabbath, and circumcision, and the legal precepts still being in force. The also teach that Christ, the Son of god, is not equal with God, and that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit-- these three persons are not one God and on being. Furthermore, to increase their error, they condemn and reject all the church Fathers, and the whole Roman church. But because they seek to base their errors upon the witness of the New Testament and the prophets, let us slay them with their own sword by the aid of the grace of Christ, as David once slew Goliath.” D’Achery, Spicilegium I, f. 211-214. Muratory, Antiq. Med. Aevi 5, f. 152. Hanh, 3, 209

[visionary]

The following report is found in a work written by Gregorius, of Bergamo, about A,.D. 1250, against the Cathari and Pasaginians:--

“After what has been said of the Cathari, there still remains the sect of the pasagini. They teach Christ to be the first and pure creature; that the Old Testament festivals are to be observed-- circumcision, distinction of foods, and in nearly all other matters, save the sacrifices, the Old Testament is to be observed as literally as the New-- circumcision is to be kept according to the letter. They say that no good person before the advent of Christ descended into the lower regions; and that there is no one in the lower regions and in paradise until now, nor will there be until sentence has been rendered on the day of Judgement.” Collectio Rev. Occitan in the Royal Library of Paris, doc. 35, quoted in Dollinger’s History of the Sects, vol. 2, p. 375

[visionary]

The patriarch Cerularius, in connection with the Bulgarian metropolis tan Leo of Achrida, in A.D. 1053 addressed a letter to John, bishop of Trani, in southern Italy (which was under Greek jurisdiction), and through him to the Pope, charging that the churches of the West followed the practise of the Jews, and went contrary to the usage of Christ, because in the eucharist they employed unleavened bread; they fasted on Saturday during Lent; that they ate blood, and things strangled, etc. The following year, Nicetas, a learned monk, attacked the Roman Church for fasting on the Sabbath, for celibacy, etc.’ this was refuted by the Pope and by the Cardinal Humbert. Pope Leo IX sent to Constantinople, under the imperious Humbert, three legates with counter-charges; that Cerularius arrogated to himself the title “ecumenical” patriarch; that, like the Nicolaitans, they permitted their priests to live in wedlock; and finally--


“Because you observe the Sabbath with the Jews and the Lord’s day with us, you seem to imitate in such observance the sect of the Nazarenes, who in this manner accept Christianity in order that they be not obliged to leave Judaism.” Migne, 145, 936; Photius, 3, 746

The end of this controversy was that the Roman legates excommunicated the patriarch and his adherents (July 16, 1054) and the patriarch answered by a synodical counter-anathema against the papal legates, accusing them of fraud. The patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem adhered tot the See of Constantinople, and thus the schism, between the East and the West was completed. The Sabbath observance played an important part indeed in this controversy, which ended in final division. And the words called forth by this controversy are a striking proof that as late as the eleventh century the true Israel was still existing under their old name, keeping the Sabbath of Jehovah; or the cardinal would not have mentioned them as a definite sect, differing from the Jews as well as from the Catholics.

[visionary]

The messianic believers keep showing up throughout history.

ABU’L FARAJ, Gregory , also called BAR-HEBRAEUS(1226-1286) born in Melitena, son of the Aaron the Jewish physician who cured Saurnavinus, a Tartar general from a disease. Master of Greek, Syriac and Arabic, student of philosophy, theology and medicine, he became an Anchorite in Antioch and ordained Bishop of Gubos at the age of twenty by Mar Ignatius, Patriarch of Saba, then again Maphrian of the Eastern Church at forty. From then on, he was known as Bar-Hebraeus. As bishop of the West Syrian Jacobite church, he was renowned for his justice, integrity, great learning and cosmopolian leadership. His writings span a wide sphere including commentaries on Scripture, moral treatises (Ethikon), on commerce, science, astronomy, medicine, logic, philosophy, history, poetry, humorous fables and devotions. While clear and resolute on matters of church doctrine, he shunned ecclesiastical disputes as an abomination. "During his forty years' episcopate he was never known to have received a farthing from anyone …like Paul, he sought to be chargeable to no man and therefore supported himself by his own scholastic ability, giving his labors freely to the cause he loved. Churches were erected wherever he went. Even the Mohammedan body who would be naturally opposed to his belief held him in great respect. At his death, none were found in the Jacobite church to equal his spiritual stature. He was appropriately named Abu'l Faraj, meaning "father of comfort."
http://www.israelinprophecy.org/ENGL...anic_jews.html

[visionary]

The following comes from Talmud Shabbat 116A.

In this discussion several rabbis are discussing when a Torah scroll can be burned if damaged or defiled.The general consensus is that even in scrolls that have damaged or blank spaces must not be burned.

Then the topic comes around to the scrolls or the GILYON or blank spaces in the Books (plural) of the Minim or (Nazarene heretics) and how they should be handled. The word GILYON means gospel or good tidings.So the issue here is the places in the gospels (BOOKS OF THE MINIM) that contain the Divine Name. HOW SHOULD THOSE HERETICAL BOOKS BE HANDELED? SHOULD THEY BE BURNED?

In verse 16 below one rabbi asks if their Torah scrolls with the Divine or Sacred Name are the issue. Another answers NO. He is referring to the gospel (blank spaces) of the MINIM. In other words the gospel books not the Torah scrolls. As you can see below, one rabbi says that on a weekday when its not Shabbat we must get the GOSPEL BOOKS and remove the DIVINE NAMES before we burn the books and another who disagrees with him and states that those books are such trash that he would burn them even without REMOVING THE DIVINE NAMES!!!!!! even if he had to take the books to a heathen temple should a Nazarene follow and chase him to get the gospels back.

Though Talmud is not scripture, it is a wonderful historical confirmation of what many of us already knew in our spirits ....That the original gospels or Books of The Minim [Nazarenes] DID HAVE THE DIVINE NAME!

...For if they did not contain them, why would the rabbis spend all their time deciding how to get rid of the gospels without desecrating the DIVINE NAME in them. The actual text appears below from th SONCINO TALMUD ON CD ROM:


Come and hear: The blank spaces above and below, between the sections, between the columns, at the beginning and at the end of the Scroll, defile one's hands. 13 — It may be that [when they are] together with the Scroll of the Law they are different.

14 Come and hear: The blank spaces
15 and the Books of the Minim
16 may not be saved from a fire, but they must be burnt in their place, they and the Divine Names occurring in them. Now surely it means the blank portions of a Scroll of the Law? No: the blank spaces in the Books of Minim. Seeing that we may not save the Books of Minim themselves, need their blank spaces [DIVINE SACRED NAMES] be stated? — This is its meaning: And the Books of Minim are like blank spaces.
It was stated in the text: The blank spaces and the Books of the Minim, we may not save them from a fire. R. Jose said: On weekdays one must cut out the Divine Names which they contain, hide them,
17 and burn the rest. R. Tarfon said: May I bury my son if I would not burn them together with their Divine Names if they came to my hand. For even if one pursued me
18 to slay me, or a snake pursued me to bite me, I would enter a heathen Temple [for refuge], but not the houses of these [people], for the latter know (of God] yet deny [Him], whereas the former are ignorant and deny [Him], and of them the Writ saith, and behind the doors and the posts hast thou set up thy memorial.
19 R. Ishmael said: [One can reason] a minori: If in order to make peace between man and wife the Torah decreed, Let my Name, written in sanctity, be blotted out in water,
20 these, who stir up jealousy, enmity, and wrath between Israel and their Father in Heaven, how much more so;
21 and of them David said, Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? And am I not grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate then with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
22 And just as we may not rescue them from a fire, so may we not rescue them from a collapse [of debris] or from water or from anything that may destroy them.
R. Joseph b. Hanin asked R. Abbahu: As for the Books of Be Abedan [Ebionites},
23 may we save them from a fire or not? — Yes and No, and he was uncertain about the matter.
24 Rab would not enter a Be Abedan, and certainly not a Be Nizrefe [HOUSE OF NAZARENES];
25 Samuel would not enter a Be Nizrefe[HOUSE OF NAZARENES], yet he would enter a Be Abedan [HOUSE OF EBIONITES]. Raba was asked: Why did you not attend at the Be Abedan? A certain palm-tree stands in the way, replied he, and it is difficult for me [to pass it].
26 Then we will remove it? — Its spot will present difficulties to me.
27 Mar b. Joseph said: I am one of them
28 and do not fear them. On one occasion he went there, [and] they wanted to harm him.

Footnotes
15) Jast. s.v. iuhkd translates, the gospels, though observing that here it is understood as blanks. V. Herford, R.T., ‘Christianity in the Talmud’, p. 155 n. (21) Not only do they themselves go astray from God, but lead many others astray from Him. (25) hprmb hc; a meeting place of the Nazarenes, Jewish Christians, where local matters were discussed and religious debates were held. (Levy). [Ginzberg, MGWJ LXXVIII, p. 23 regards it as the name of a Persian house of worship meaning the Asylum of Helplessness]. 29) Uncensored text adds: R. Meir called it (the Gospel) ‘Awen Gilyon, the falsehood of blank Paper; R. Johanan called it ‘Awon Gilyon, the sin of etc. On the whole passage v. Herford, op. cit., pp. 161-171.
This was from a very old email, so I do not remember who emailed and from every source.

[visionary]

By the way... the blood line of the Passagii may have been Levi.

http://www.britam.org/levi.html

[visionary]

Ignatz Lichtenstein (1824 - October 16, 1909) was an Hungarian Orthodox Rabbi who wrote "pamphlets advocating conversion to Christianity while still officiating as a Rabbi. Mein Zeugnis [“My Testimony”], Heft II (Budapest: Hornyánszky, 1886).
Die Liebe und die Bekehrung [“Love and Conversion”], Heft III (Budapest, 1886).

[visionary]

http://www.messianicassociation.org/profiles.htm

1506 - Alfonso de Zamora - Rabbi
Alfonso de Zamora, a Rabbi, publicly declared his faith in Messiah Jesus in 1506. Working with Paul Nunez Coronel and Alfonso d'Alcala, two other Jewish believers, he uses his knowledge of Hebrew, Aramaic, Chaldean, and other languages to help develop a six-volume multilingual work known as the Polyglot Bible. He also writes a Hebrew grammar, a Hebrew dictionary, a dictionary of the Old Testament, and a treatise on Hebrew spelling.

[visionary]

We learn from the Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, by Brown, article Pasaginians," that:

"A denomination which arose in the twelfth century, called the circumcised. Mosheim says, 'the meaning of the term Pasaginian is unknown, but they seem to have been a remnant of the Nazarenes.' They seem to have been a remnant of the Nazarenes, and have distinguishing tenants: 1) that the observance of the Law of Moses in everything except the offering of sacrifices was obligatory upon Christians. 2) That Christ was no more than the first and purest creature of God which was the doctrine of the semi-Arians."

[visionary]

Or how about these Jews...
They were then called in the Russian official documents "heretics" and "Sabbatarians," who followed certain Jewish dogmas and rites, e.g., the observance of the Sabbath and circumcision. The first official reports about them appeared in 1811, almost simultaneously from the governments of Tula, Voronezh, and Tambov.

From the investigation it became apparent that the Judaizing heresy had spread to the governments of Orel, Tula, and Saratov. About 1,500 members confessed it openly, and many more kept their belief secret. The sect, according to the opinion of the metropolitan, was not a distinctly Old Testament cult, but was characterized by the observance of certain Jewish rites, e.g., the celebration of the Sabbath, circumcision, contracting marriages and dissolving them at will, peculiar burial ceremonies, and manner of assembling for prayer. The sectarians declared that they did not condemn the Christian faith, and, therefore, did not consider themselves apostates; and they insisted that they never had been Christians, but had only adhered to the faith of their fathers, which they would not forsake.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...d=668&letter=J
__________________

[visionary]

Another point.. That most hallowed name, desposyni, had been respected by all believers in the first century and a half of Christian history. The word literally meant, in Greek, "belonging to the Lord." It was reserved uniquely for Jesus' blood relatives. Every part of the ancient Jewish Christian church had always been governed by a desposynos, and each of them carried one of the names traditional in Jesus' family---Zachary, Joseph, John, James, Joses, Simeon, Matthias, and so on. http://www.dhushara.com/book/yeshua/desposyn.htm

"Ever since the Emperor Hadrian had conquered Jerusalem in the year 135, all Jews, and that included Jewish Christians, had been forbidden to enter Jerusalem under pain of instant death...."

[GerTzedek]

vis: there is no continuity. period.

What you are doing is analogous to this:

There is a report of a three legged dog in 1903, and another in 1954, 1961, and 1979. That is four seperate sightings. I think we can assume the existence of a species of three legged dogs.

[kivi]

kivi says: Why do 'We gather..."? What is your source? Why should we believe what is claimed by Schonfield? Is there some sort of extra textual oral tradition that gives such understanding that James as elected Nasi? There is nothing in the New Testament to that effect. the term Nasi is not even used anywhere in the New Testament. It seems that the book you are citing is inventing stuff out of its author's imagination. In effect, it is guessing.


Let's start here...
"…We gather that this system was adopted by the Nazarenes, the leadership of the visiting teachers being given to Peter, while James the brother of Jesus was elected Nasi, or president of the Supreme Council, both on account of his kinship to the Messiah and his noted piety." (Schonfield, Hugh (1938). The History of Jewish Christianity From the First to the Twentieth Century. Book out of print, pp. 14-15.)

[kivi]

The Nazarenes, whose existence in the fourth century is attested to by Jerome, appear to be the direct descendants of the Christian community of Jerusalem who migrated to Pella.

kivi says: 'Appear' is a pretty sloppy word, allowing for a lot of inappropriate latitude. Is the best you can do is 'appear' or can you give a direct 'teacher to student' connection or direct geneological tree from Jesus' time to to Jerome's time for the Nazarenes?

[kivi]

Another point.. That most hallowed name, desposyni, had been respected by all believers in the first century and a half of Christian history. The word literally meant, in Greek, "belonging to the Lord." It was reserved uniquely for Jesus' blood relatives. Every part of the ancient Jewish Christian church had always been governed by a desposynos, and each of them carried one of the names traditional in Jesus' family---Zachary, Joseph, John, James, Joses, Simeon, Matthias, and so on. http://www.dhushara.com/book/yeshua/desposyn.htm

"Ever since the Emperor Hadrian had conquered Jerusalem in the year 135, all Jews, and that included Jewish Christians, had been forbidden to enter Jerusalem under pain of instant death...."

kivi says: I know for you, what you have just shared is heartening. Thank you for your efforts. Unfortunately, what you have shared is 'it appears'. That is not a history of a continous connection from the 1st Century CE to the present. It is, at best, a series of hints that are interesting but hardly conclusive. In Judaism, I can give a continous, unbroken list of names, from teacher to student to teacher to student, all the way from Avraham to the present. Unbroken. No 'it appears', no 'hints', no sightings with numerous years in-between. When you can do that, come on back, I will find it fascinating.

[visionary]

kivi says: I know for you, what you have just shared is heartening. Thank you for your efforts. Unfortunately, what you have shared is 'it appears'. That is not a history of a continous connection from the 1st Century CE to the present. It is, at best, a series of hints that are interesting but hardly conclusive. In Judaism, I can give a continous, unbroken list of names, from teacher to student to teacher to student, all the way from Avraham to the present. Unbroken. No 'it appears', no 'hints', no sightings with numerous years in-between. When you can do that, come on back, I will find it fascinating.
Yet, you have no authors to even begin suggesting what you proclaim. The wide variety of authors suggesting they existed not as noahides but as one law believers.

[kivi]

Yet, you have no authors to even begin suggesting what you proclaim. The wide variety of authors suggesting they existed not as noahides but as one law believers.

kivi says: I have no idea what you mean by 'one law believers'. Is that some sort of jargon? And I am not talking about Noachides, but the continous and un-broken Torah traditon from Moshe Rabbeneu to the present. I don't need authors. Moshe Rabbeneu to Joshua to the Elders to the Judges to the Prophets to the Men of the Great Assembly to the Pairs to the Pharisaic Rabbis to the present. No breaks, not multiple sighting with large and unexlainable gaps inbetween.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Eusibius, in the fourth century, is the first to explicitly mention the exodus by the believers: "The people belonging to the church at Jerusalem had been ordered by an oracle revealed to approved men on the spot before the war broke out, to leave the city and dwell in a town of Peraea called Pella" (EH III:5).Is that the same oracle that is mentioned in Josephus concerning the destruction of the temple?

Luke 21:23 "Woe yet to the-ones in belly having, and to those giving suck, in those, the days.
For shall be great distress on the Land, and Wrath in the People, These;

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

7. As the last and most fearful omen, Josephus relates that one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a rustic of the lower class, during the Feast of Tabernacles, suddenly exclaimed in the temple, "A voice from the east a voice from the west -- a voice from the four winds- a voice against Jerusalem and the temple -- a voice against bridegrooms and brides -- a voice against the whole people !"

These words he incessantly proclaimed aloud both day and night, through all the streets of Jerusalem, for seven years and five months together, commencing at a time (A. D. 62) when the city was in a state of peace, and overflowing with prosperity, and terminating amidst the horrors of the siege. This disturber, having excited the attention of the magistracy, was brought before Albinus the Roman governor, who commanded that he should be scourged. But the severest stripes drew from him neither tears nor supplications.

As he never thanked those who relieved, so neither did he complain of the injustice of those who struck him. And no other answer could the governor obtain to his interrogatories, but his usual denunciation of "Woe, woe to Jerusalem !" which he still continued to proclaim through the city, but especially during the festivals, when his manner became more earnest, and the tone of his voice louder.

At length, on the commencement of the siege, he ascended the walls, and, in a more powerful voice than ever, exclaimed, "Woe, woe to this city, this temple, and this people !" And then, with a presentment of his own death, added," Woe, woe to myself "' he had scarcely uttered these words when a stone from one of the Roman engines killed him on the spot.

[kivi]

Is that the same oracle that is mentioned in Josephus concerning the destruction of the temple?

Luke 21:23 "Woe yet to the-ones in belly having, and to those giving suck, in those, the days.
For shall be great distress on the Land, and Wrath in the People, These;

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

7. As the last and most fearful omen, Josephus relates that one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a rustic of the lower class, during the Feast of Tabernacles, suddenly exclaimed in the temple, "A voice from the east a voice from the west -- a voice from the four winds- a voice against Jerusalem and the temple -- a voice against bridegrooms and brides -- a voice against the whole people !"

These words he incessantly proclaimed aloud both day and night, through all the streets of Jerusalem, for seven years and five months together, commencing at a time (A. D. 62) when the city was in a state of peace, and overflowing with prosperity, and terminating amidst the horrors of the siege. This disturber, having excited the attention of the magistracy, was brought before Albinus the Roman governor, who commanded that he should be scourged. But the severest stripes drew from him neither tears nor supplications.

As he never thanked those who relieved, so neither did he complain of the injustice of those who struck him. And no other answer could the governor obtain to his interrogatories, but his usual denunciation of "Woe, woe to Jerusalem !" which he still continued to proclaim through the city, but especially during the festivals, when his manner became more earnest, and the tone of his voice louder.

At length, on the commencement of the siege, he ascended the walls, and, in a more powerful voice than ever, exclaimed, "Woe, woe to this city, this temple, and this people !" And then, with a presentment of his own death, added," Woe, woe to myself "' he had scarcely uttered these words when a stone from one of the Roman engines killed him on the spot.

kivi says: Jerusalem was filled with oracles. For years before the final destruction, the entire land was convulsed. The 1st Jewish War had the best advance men in the business. If you didn't know, you were blind, deaf, dumb and stupid, locked away from all human interaction.

[visionary]

kivi says: I am still working this out. So, excuse me if I am a little slopping in my analysis. James takes early Christianity out of Torah Judaism and puts it under the 7 Mitzvahs of the Noachide Torah. The Jews at the time would have gotten that. But the gentiles, like Paul, might not have gotten it. They thought they were being given equal status with the Jews in early Christianity. So, time passes, the Jews who knew of the deal die out and there are no Jewish 2nd generation. The original Jews can not pass on their 'conversion experience' to their children. The 2nd generation are all gentile converts to Chirstianity and the childern of gentile converts to Christianity who think that they are eqvilent to the Jews. And nobody in Christianity knows that Chirstianity was taken out of Judaism. And no more Jews become Christian. In effect, the Jewish Community, world wide, rejects the Christian message. They follow James' ruling. And, in doing so, the idea of equal footing is dumped. What does that leave the gentile Christians with? Not much. The Jews have rejected Chirstianity, there is no equal footing of Jew and gentile because there are no Jews in Christianity. The gentiles, to thier way of thinking, are left out in the cold one more time. There are several possible reactions to that. One, of course, is to go to the Jew and accept Jewish leadership, as Torah imagaines will happen with Moshiach. But that requires humility and gratitude. And admiting that Christianity just doesn't cut it. Or, the other possbilty, to hide that inferiorty & go on the offensive, and in the case of Christianity in regards to Judaism, the violent offensive. It is that 2nd possibllity that has driven Christianity since. I would imagine that the collective memory of Chirstianity is pretty confused on the matter, alternatively attracted by the purity of the Jewish message and repelled by the need to admit that Christianity fails. Violent mass progroms, aggressive and deadly conversion campaigns, constant civic discrimination are all part of the Christian effort to wipe out the source of Christianity's shame. We will see.You seemed to have forgotten what you wrote earlier... which I proved invalid but the many historical documents and authors whom I have quoted. You presented the Noahides as if they have some kind of relationship to Acts 15, which is so far from the truth, that there is no history of Noahides until Rabbi L. sold the bill of goods. Strange thing is, Noahides do not believe in Yeshua, nor is there any other scripture but Acts 15 for their spin off. Unless you can prove me different, I would say you are blowing smoke.

[GerTzedek]

kivi says: I have no idea what you mean by 'one law believers'. Is that some sort of jargon?
There is a new group in the messianic world that believes Torah observance is OBLIGATORY for gentiles. They don't understand that G-d would set up a covenant for Israel only, and that it is to remain for Israel only. They believe G-d has ONE LAW for all of humanity. They truly believe this is what the apostles taught. This teaching is NOT accepted by the two largest messianic denominations, where is is considered dangerous. The One Law folks are a minority in the messianic world. However, they are NOT a minority in this forum. Most of the Messianics in CF are One Law.

On the timeline, they seem to have appeared first in Latin America, and they are much stronger there. You find in their gentile congregations the combination of supersessionism, Torah observance, anti-catholicism, and pentecostalism. I can tell you that the Jews down in Latin America see them less as Christianity, and more as a cult. It seems to have, over time, come over the border, and begun to be more popular here, especially among former pentecostals and non-denominationalists. The form of MJ that originated here in the US, designed to be a haven for Jews who are believers in JC but who wish to explore their Jewish identity (even if the movement has become frought with gentiles) does not seem to exist in Latin America.

[kivi]

You seemed to have forgotten what you wrote earlier... which I proved invalid but the many historical documents and authors whom I have quoted. You presented the Noahides as if they have some kind of relationship to Acts 15, which is so far from the truth, that there is no history of Noahides until Rabbi L. sold the bill of goods. Strange thing is, Noahides do not believe in Yeshua, nor is there any other scripture but Acts 15 for their spin off. Unless you can prove me different, I would say you are blowing smoke.

kivi says: I was there so I know that you didn't prove anything. The discussion ended because the forum rules were set up so I couldn't answer. And you were so confused about what a Noachite is and kept confusing it with early gentile Christians that it was impossible for me to follow your discussion.

I never mentioned Acts 15. The Torah of Noach existed long before Christianity was even a nightmare in Paul's fantasy. There is no connection between Noachites and early Christianity. There would be no church of Noachites. They would not have distinction institutions. All they would be are gentiles living in Eretz Israel and keeping the rerquirement of righteous gentile about which the Tanach has numerous references.

[kivi]

kivis says: Thank you:blush:!! I know that messianics are not Jewish because they behave like Christians. How do I know they are Christians? Because they keep fragmenting and fragmenting. Christians don't have a religion, they have a hand gernade. If you have 5 Christians, you have a 100 churches, most of which have been burnt down or blown up.



There is a new group in the messianic world that believes Torah observance is OBLIGATORY for gentiles. They don't understand that G-d would set up a covenant for Israel only, and that it is to remain for Israel only. They believe G-d has ONE LAW for all of humanity. They truly believe this is what the apostles taught. This teaching is NOT accepted by the two largest messianic denominations, where is is considered dangerous. The One Law folks are a minority in the messianic world. However, they are NOT a minority in this forum. Most of the Messianics in CF are One Law.

On the timeline, they seem to have appeared first in Latin America, and they are much stronger there. You find in their gentile congregations the combination of supersessionism, Torah observance, anti-catholicism, and pentecostalism. I can tell you that the Jews down in Latin America see them less as Christianity, and more as a cult. It seems to have, over time, come over the border, and begun to be more popular here, especially among former pentecostals and non-denominationalists. The form of MJ that originated here in the US, designed to be a haven for Jews who are believers in JC but who wish to explore their Jewish identity (even if the movement has become frought with gentiles) does not seem to exist in Latin America.

[GerTzedek]

kivis says: Thank you:blush:!! I know that messianics are not Jewish because they behave like Christians. How do I know they are Christians? Because they keep fragmenting and fragmenting. Christians don't have a religion, they have a hand gernade. If you have 5 Christians, you have a 100 churches, most of which have been burnt down or blown up.

I would not make this same remark regarding Eastern ORthodoxy or the Catholic Church, which seem to be maintaining their order just fine.

But I certainly agree we are seeing the death throws of Protestantism. Another hundred years and the disintegration will be complete.

I don't know if it's such a good thing, given that Protestantism has been the dominant religion of the Judeo-Christian culture of the USA, which has been very good to Jews, and which is now falling apart. The secular materialsim and pagan hedonism which is coming into dominance is going to be very bery bad for us.

[kivi]

I would not make this same remark regarding Eastern ORthodoxy or the Catholic Church, which seem to be maintaining their order just fine.

But I certainly agree we are seeing the death throws of Protestantism. Another hundred years and the disintegration will be complete.

I don't know if it's such a good thing, given that Protestantism has been the dominant religion of the Judeo-Christian culture of the USA, which has been very good to Jews, and which is now falling apart. The secular materialsim and pagan hedonism which is coming into dominance is going to be very bery bad for us.

kivi says: We survived the Greeks pretty well. It was the Jewish assimulationists that gave us the real problems. I like to remember that the 1st person killed by Old Man Maccabee was a Jewish assimulationist who was willing to sacrifice a pig to the Greek gods. The Old Man killed him on the spot.

[visionary]

kivi says: I was there so I know that you didn't prove anything. The discussion ended because the forum rules were set up so I couldn't answer. And you were so confused about what a Noachite is and kept confusing it with early gentile Christians that it was impossible for me to follow your discussion.

I never mentioned Acts 15. The Torah of Noach existed long before Christianity was even a nightmare in Paul's fantasy. There is no connection between Noachites and early Christianity. There would be no church of Noachites. They would not have distinction institutions. All they would be are gentiles living in Eretz Israel and keeping the rerquirement of righteous gentile about which the Tanach has numerous references.Excuse me....You said it James takes early Christianity out of Torah Judaism and puts it under the 7 Mitzvahs of the Noachide Torah.There is no history of noahides, therefore they are a recent development. You are the one who brought them into the discussion and now you are playing duck and dodge. And there is history showing, that I have quoted from writers of that generation that there were Jews following Yeshua in different sects that existed at that time. Instead of posting historical documents which show evidence of what you claim to be true, you blow smoke and play side track. So, time passes, the Jews who knew of the deal die out and there are no Jewish 2nd generation. Proved you wrong by those very same citations. The rest of what you said is propaganda without historical documentation to prove your bias.

[kivi]

Excuse me....You said it.

kivi says: And you have it backward. I didn't know that James was in Acts 15. Since he is [and yes, based on your acusation, I did check it out], I am sorry. Apparently we were talking at cross purposes.

There is no history of noahides, therefore they are a recent development.

kivi says: That is not true. There was no history of the Inca nation in Europe before 1492, that did not mean they did not exist. The assumpton that there if there is not documentation, something did not happen is a dangeus and common historical fallacey. Apart from your illogic, concerning the Torah of Noach, here never will be a history of the Noachites before the 20th Century because Noachites were not a church or a denomination, they were not an organized religious entity. The Torah of Noach is a standard of behavior, not a religious sect. You do 1-7, and 'you're covered' by the Noachite Torah. Before Christianity and Islam there wasn't any formal religion that was not Jewish that met the standards. But individual gentiles often contacted and lived with the Jews in Eretz Israel during the 1st Temple. After the founding of Chiristainity and Islam, they met, to a better or worse degree, the standards of the Noachite Torah. Right acting Christians and Muslims easily fall in that category.

You are the one who brought them into the discussion and now you are playing duck and dodge.

kivi says: I just love it when Chirstians play fast and loose with Christianity. So, the Jews who didn't believe in Jesus as a semi divine demi god now count as Christians? The Jews you 'cite' don't seem very Christian to me. And they seem to be completely isolated from both the Christain and Jwish communities. You know that the Karites started out as a Jewish heresy and now, because of their long isolation from Judaism, have to go through a conversion like any other gentile if they want to be counted as Jewish. I wonder if your heresy group falls in that same category? I also wonder if they were part of the deal or even knew of the deal, allowing gentiles in under the Torah of Noach since Paul planned to make Christainity an exclusively gentile religion? It seems they split off before the Paulites took over.


And there is history showing, that I have quoted from writers of that generation that there were Jews following Yeshua in different sects that existed at that time.

kivi says: You really do play fast and loose with your definition of 'follow'. You know, if they just took Jesus as a great rebbe and not the messiah and not a semi divine demi god or part of the trinity or all the other stuff, could you call them Christian? Aparently, if the Creeds had been written they wouldn't have been covered, based on what you said. So what's with this 'follow' thingee? Considering his as a wandering preacher they repsected, they might have well been within the Pale. I'd have to check with a more competant authority than myself on that, but its very possible.

Instead of posting historical documents which show evidence of what you claim to be true, you blow smoke and play side track. Proved you wrong by those very same citations. The rest of what you said is propaganda without historical documentation to prove your bias.

kivi says: I am using standard Jewish pilosophy, belief and practice and applying it to what I have read in the New Testament and my reading of history. Sorry, you don't agree.

As for the Noachites, I know that they drive some Christians crazy. The Christains, to the best of my understanding, see them as a potential threat, like its Jewish evangelism. Well, I was there for the very 1st Christian congregation, in the 80's, that sought out the Rabbis and eventually, as a congregation, became Noachite. Let me tell you, the Rabbis were terrified. It was all gentile driven. The Rabbies still aren't thrilled. 2000 years of Christain terror has made all of us gun shy. There is some websites out there, an occasional discussion group, a few very small ex-Christian congregations and not much else. I now that the Christians who are scared want to see the Torah of Noach as a new thing. It isn't. Standards for righteous gentiles living in Eretz Israel during the 1st Temple are part of the Tanach and Talmud. The modern Noachite movement is new. Jews haven't been much into out-reach to gentiles for 1700 years, thanks to Constantine and his successors. We still aren't. It is still mostly gentile driven. With Christianity and Islam meeting the Torah of Noach standards, there just isn't a lot of internal pressure in the Jewish community for gentile outreach. We'll see.

[visionary]

IT is a new thing.. and Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Chabad Lubavitch world Jewish movement, universally respected, and revered has said that the Noahide Laws observance by all humankind will bring about universal peace and the Messianic Redemption.

There is no history before this Rabbi where the seven laws/Noahide laws are even mentioned.

I have heard it said that Jew who lives according to the Torah is exempt from these seven laws.

[visionary]

Zephaniah 3:9: For then I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure language, that they may all call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one accord.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

[GerTzedek]

Vis:

I'm still waiting for you to explain to me about Cornelius being a "G-d Fearer" .

Indeed, another interesting point would be, if you trust your Christian scriptures, G-d already had a relationship with Cornelius despite the fact that he was neither a Jew, nor yet a believer in JC.

[GerTzedek]

Vis:

We have one manner of Law in this country. It has certain rules for married couples, and different rules for unmarried couples. It has certain rules for adults, and different rules for minors. It has certain rules for citizens, such as citizens may vote, and different rules for aliens, such as that they may not vote.

The fact that strangers in the land of Israel had a different set of obligations in some ways, and kept the same obligations in other ways, doesn't mean that G-d is being inconsistant. Think for a second. There are also some rules only women follow. There are some rules only priests follow. There are some rules only those taking nazarite vows follow. Are you also going to argue that all human beings must follow the laws given to the Kohanim?

[visionary]

Vis:

We have one manner of Law in this country. It has certain rules for married couples, and different rules for unmarried couples. It has certain rules for adults, and different rules for minors. It has certain rules for citizens, such as citizens may vote, and different rules for aliens, such as that they may not vote.

The fact that strangers in the land of Israel had a different set of obligations in some ways, and kept the same obligations in other ways, doesn't mean that G-d is being inconsistant. Think for a second. There are also some rules only women follow. There are some rules only priests follow. There are some rules only those taking nazarite vows follow. Are you also going to argue that all human beings must follow the laws given to the Kohanim?NO... I think Noahide is a sanhedrin driven, Jews hating Yeshua political propiganda.

[GerTzedek]

Vis:

I think you missed a couple points along the way somehow.


Kivi was referring to James' epistle, not to Acts 15. I have brought up Acts 15.
Many times the names for things change but you can trace the same set of ideas through time. What is called a Noachide today was called a G-d Fearer or Righteous Gentile in previous times.

[GerTzedek]

NO... I think Noahide is a sanhedrin driven, Jews hating Yeshua political propiganda.
????? You are not responding to my points. I think you need to take a deeeep breath, and then answer my question about Cornelius.

Remember, given that you are a gentile, it really doesn't concern me that you believe in JC.

[Henaynei]

another point - back to the OP - it is unlikely in the extreme that MJism is going to get a Sanhedrin-esk/Acts 15-esk type of council in the foreseeable future - we are not even likely to get a Beit Din that everyone agrees on.... in fact mainstream Judaism doesn't even have that anymore.... they have local posek (usually a LOR, i.e. local orthodox rabbi), poskim - plural, in individual communities and sometimes a Beit Din, very occasionally there might be a recognized Din for a large community, like there is in Israel, but even there is division between sects and Ashkenazi vs Sephardi.....

Why do we expect that we will have it any better than they?? Especially with the sterling example of such we have within Christianity itself??

I pray for HaShem to provide LOMR (Local Orthodox Messianic Rabbis) ASAP - but my rush is not His ;)

[visionary]

????? You are not responding to my points. I think you need to take a deeeep breath, and then answer my question about Cornelius.

Remember, given that you are a gentile, it really doesn't concern me that you believe in JC.Is 56:6 the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Noahiders want gentiles to break the sabbath.

Acts 15 talks about them coming into the synagogue every sabbath to hear more about Moses.

God fearers.... I picture them to be more like ...

Deuteronomy 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Deuteronomy 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Deuteronomy 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

Deuteronomy 8:6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

These godfearers were without the encumbrances of required of Israel, but they were required to do certain aspects, like keeping all the feasts including the sabbath, keeping kosher, and keeping the Ten Commandments.

Noahider laws are a fence to keep gentiles out.... they are also dangerous in their directives... Not something God wants.

Hosea 4:6 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

In 1st Cor 11:2 Paul thanks the Gentiles in Corinth for “remembering him in all ways and KEEPING the ordinances.” The root word for “ordinances” when traced to the Greek and Hebrew will refer to "divine appointed times"...festivals and Sabbaths.

Again in Corinthians Paul admonishes Gentiles to "keep the feast" [Passover} because Yeshua was killed on that day.

Also in Acts 20:8 is recorded that "there were many lights in the upper chamber." Most of us have read this passage over and over our whole lives and just pass right over it moving on to the next passage. For your information this passage is recording for us the Havdalah worship service which is a religious service that ends the Sabbath on Saturday evenings at sunset; thereby .separating the Sabbath Holy Day from secular days.

In I Corinthians 10:16 it is recorded: is this not the "cup of blessing" which refers to the ONLY cup of the Passover Seder...other than Elijah's cup at the end of the Seder, which again shows us a picture of Gentiles keeping Passover and the Sabbath.

[kivi]

IT is a new thing.. and Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Chabad Lubavitch world Jewish movement, universally respected, and revered has said that the Noahide Laws observance by all humankind will bring about universal peace and the Messianic Redemption.

kivi says: Reference to the Noachite Laws in published works goes back to the Talmud, of course, it has always been part of the Oral Torah.

There is no history before this Rabbi where the seven laws/Noahide laws are even mentioned.

I have heard it said that Jew who lives according to the Torah is exempt from these seven laws.[/quote]

kivi says: Then stop listening to that source. The 7 Laws of the Torah of Noach are part of the 613 Laws of the Torah of Moseh Rabbeneu. It is impossible to obey the Torah of Moshe Rabbenu and not obey the Laws of the Torah of Noach.


The Noahide Code:

No Idolatry (http://www.noachite.org.uk/html/seven_noahide_laws.html#1) עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה
No Blasphemy (http://www.noachite.org.uk/html/seven_noahide_laws.html#2) בִּרְכַּת הַשֵׁם
No Murder (http://www.noachite.org.uk/html/seven_noahide_laws.html#3) שְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים
No Sexual Immorality (http://www.noachite.org.uk/html/seven_noahide_laws.html#4) גִּלּוּי עֲרָיוֹת
No Theft (http://www.noachite.org.uk/html/seven_noahide_laws.html#5) גָּזֵל
No Eating a limb of a living creature (http://www.noachite.org.uk/html/seven_noahide_laws.html#6) אֵבָר מִן הֶחָי
Justice/Civil Law (http://www.noachite.org.uk/html/seven_noahide_laws.html#7) דִּינִים
Noachides (or Bnai Noach) are righteous gentiles who observe The Seven Universal Commandments of the Biblical Covenant that G-d (http://www.asknoah.org/WritingDivineNames.aspx) made with Noah as taught in Orthodox Judaism. They include both Muslims and Christians. There are also B'nai Noach who have no other religious affiliation than that of B'nai Noach and many of these actively seek Rabbinic guidance in their spiritual journey as B'nai Noach.

[kivi]

Zephaniah 3:9: For then I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure language, that they may all call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one accord.

kivi say: I wish you knew Hebrew, you won't fall into these linguistic traps. "Accords' here means with one purpose and one mind, it does not mean with one action. When building a house, you need a worrkforce of one accord but many different skills. The difference between Israel and the Nations will not be their singleness of purpose when Moshiach Comes. That will be there. The difference is the different skills in the matter of Olam Habah that each Nation, including Israel, will bring. The language of course, will be Hebrew. We will be back to the state before the Tower of babel. But instead of using a common langauage to challenge G-d, the common language will be used to obey G-d.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

kivi says: It is so sad when you totally mis-apply a verse. The stranger, the ger, in this case is the convert to B'nai Israel. The term 'ger' is alway translated in the KJV wrong/badly/inaccurately/poorly. It is not a 'stranger', it is 'convert.' The 'ger' may have been a 'stranger' at the beginning of the process, but by the end of the conversion process, they are totally un-distinguishable from the native born Jew. In fact, after the conversion process, it is forbidden to inquite as to the 'status' of such a Jew. It is as if they had never not been a Jew. And you will note that the verse you quote refers very carefully to the idea of 'your own country', which refers to B'nai Israel, exclusively,in this verse and the entire portion.

[kivi]

NO... I think Noahide is a sanhedrin driven, Jews hating Yeshua political propiganda.

kivi says: Can you name the Sanhedrin you refer to? Who sits on the Sanhedrin, were does it sit and under what authority does it operate? Then can you give us any publication, email, website this Sanhedrin manages, prints, operates? You have made a serious charge, care to back it up?

Now, as to the Jewish opinon on Jesus Christ. If you study Judaism you will find that we do not accept him as the Messiah. Does that make us Jesus Christ haters?????? Other than that, we have no opinion, collectively. Personally, there are all sorts of opinions. But, its that true in all peoples. So, what is your point? I know that are some Jew haters in Christianity. Heck, I just met one here a few days ago who called me a Christ killer. Do you think that I am? Do I think that all Christians are Jew haters? No, I don't think so. I think that it would be good if you were to think out your anger on this matter and share with us what is driving it. It isn't the Noachite movement that has no effect on Christianity. Can you find Noachite Missionaries going from house to house during Christmas, knocking on the doors of the houses with Christmas trees to pass out literature and share their witness with Chirstians about how they hate Jesus? I don't thnk so, though I do know of Christian Missionaries who go, every Shabbas, into the Jewish neighborhoods and knock on doors that have a mezuzah to pass out literature and witness about how those who do not believe in Jesus Christ will go to Hell. I would be interested to hear from you.

[GerTzedek]

visionary:

What evidence do you have that G-d Fearers OUTSIDE OF ISRAEL were ever required to keep sabbath, keep kosher, keep religious feast days, etc.?

The very fact that they are called G-d Fearers shows that, like Noachides, they have not become Jews. You are in basic denial of what is going on here. G-d fearers are not the converts you think they are. They have attached to Israel, but they are not part of Israel. They fully remain gentiles.

[kivi]

Is 56:6 the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant

kivi says: Again, Isa 65:6 is refering to full converts, no to rightous gentiles.


Noahiders want gentiles to break the sabbath.

Judaism believes that the 10 Commandments are very clear that Shabbas is only given to the Jews, it is not given to the gentiles. Exodus 20:2: "who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." Of course, keeping kosher, laying tefillin, wearing tzitzis are also only given to the Jews. So, it is impossible for a gentile to keep the Shabbas, even it they were to mimic every action of a Jew in regards to Shabbas. It would be like a foreign citizen voting in an American election.

Acts 15 talks about them coming into the synagogue every sabbath to hear more about Moses.

God fearers.... I picture them to be more like ...

Deuteronomy 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Deuteronomy 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Deuteronomy 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

Deuteronomy 8:6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

kivi says: The verses you have hopscotched refer very specifically to what is required of Jews. You are confused.

These godfearers were without the encumbrances of required of Israel, but they were required to do certain aspects, like keeping all the feasts including the sabbath, keeping kosher, and keeping the Ten Commandments.

kvi says: These are the Halachahs:

Ger Toshav -
The Resident Stranger (Gentile) who dwells in the Holy Land
(Currently in this era nobody can become a Ger Toshav, until the Jubilee Year is reintroduced in Israel when the King Moshiach comes).
In biblical times a Gentile who observed the seven Noachide laws in the Holy Land was regarded as a resident alien or Ger Toshav in Hebrew. (גֵר תּוֹשָׁב)
The Gemara (Talmud Bavli, Avodah Zarah 64b) quotes three opinions regarding who is a Ger Toshav, and they are:

Rebbi Meir maintains that a Ger Toshav is a Nochri (stranger) who accepts upon himself, in front of three "Chaverim" (Talmidei Chachamim), not to worship idols.
The Chachamim say that a Ger Toshav is a Nochri who accepts upon himself to observe the seven Mitzvos of Bnei Noach.
Acherim maintain that the above opinions are incorrect, and that a Ger Toshav is a Nochri who accepts all of the Mitzvos except for not eating Neveilos (animals that were not slaughtered properly).

Rambam's Hilchos Issurei Bi'ah 14:7
What is meant by a Ger Toshav (resident alien)? A gentile who makes a commitment not to worship false deities and to observe the other six universal laws commanded to Noah's descendants. He does not circumcise himself nor immerse. We accept this commitment and he is considered one of the pious gentiles. Why is he called a resident? Because we are permitted to allow him to dwell among us in the land of Israel, as explained in Hilchos Avodah Zarah.

Rambam's Hilchos Issurei Bi'ah 14:8
We accept resident aliens only during the era when the Jubilee year is observed. In the present era, even if a gentile makes a commitment to observe the entire Torah with the exception of just one minor point, he is not accepted.



Rambam's Hilchos Melachim 8:11
'Anyone who accepts upon himself the fulfillment of these Seven Mitzvot and is precise in their observance is considered one of the Pious among the Gentiles (Chasidei Umot HaOlam - מֵחֲסִידֵי אֻמּוֹת הָעוֹלָם) and will merit a share in the World to Come. This applies only when he accepts them and fulfills them because the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded them in the Torah and informed us through Moses, our teacher, that even previously, Noah's descendants were commanded to fulfill them. However, if he fulfills them out of intellectual conviction, he is not a resident alien, nor of the Pious among the Gentiles, but rather, of their wise men.'

Noahider laws are a fence to keep gentiles out.... they are also dangerous in their directives... Not something God wants.

kivi says: I have no idea what you are refering to.

Hosea 4:6 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

kivi says: G-d is refering specifically to the Kohanim, the Priests. As he promised, they lost the Temple when it was destroyed the 1st time.

In 1st Cor 11:2 Paul thanks the Gentiles in Corinth for “remembering him in all ways and KEEPING the ordinances.” The root word for “ordinances” when traced to the Greek and Hebrew will refer to "divine appointed times"...festivals and Sabbaths.

Again in Corinthians Paul admonishes Gentiles to "keep the feast" [Passover} because Yeshua was killed on that day.

kivi says: Well, Paul is hardly an authority of and for Judaism and how Judaism is practiced. He may be an authority for Christianity. Go for it.

Also in Acts 20:8 is recorded that "there were many lights in the upper chamber." Most of us have read this passage over and over our whole lives and just pass right over it moving on to the next passage. For your information this passage is recording for us the Havdalah worship service which is a religious service that ends the Sabbath on Saturday evenings at sunset; thereby .separating the Sabbath Holy Day from secular days.

kivi says: How do you know that? Who told you and how did that person know that?

In I Corinthians 10:16 it is recorded: is this not the "cup of blessing" which refers to the ONLY cup of the Passover Seder...other than Elijah's cup at the end of the Seder, which again shows us a picture of Gentiles keeping Passover and the Sabbath.

kvi says: Your point is?

[visionary]

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Explain that one... I believe Yeshua is saying that there is something very wrong with the way God's laws have been interprested to mean and applied.

[GerTzedek]

vis, vis, vis. JC is talking to bet Shammai Pharisees, the ones who lost. They have their wannabe descendents today, rabbis who want to persecute converts and have nothing to do with goyim and be extreme about everything. That mindset will always be with us. It does not dominate Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy came to be dominated by the reasoning of bet Hillel.

[GerTzedek]

kivi: when vis said that noachiders are a fence to keep gentiles out, what she means is that she thinks gentiles are to keep all the law and the noachide philosophy is dangerous in that it will prevent gentiles from doing so, that it will keep them out of Israel, and vis believes that gentiles belong "inside", to be "a part of" israel. It is the One Law version of Supersessionism. It's why UMJC and MJAA consider them so dangerous.

[GerTzedek]

Again in Corinthians Paul admonishes Gentiles to "keep the feast" [Passover} because Yeshua was killed on that day.
This is not an exhortation for them to keep the feast. This is a metaphor he uses, leven verses unleven bread, to explain why they should not consort with immoral people.

[GerTzedek]

For your information this passage is recording for us the Havdalah worship service which is a religious service that ends the Sabbath on Saturday evenings at sunset


How totally bizarre. When I do Havdalah, my home uses only one torch for all of us, and the rite lasts only a few minutes. What were these loons doing using many lights over an extended period of time?

Vis, are you sure they weren't just lighting the room to make it visible?

[GerTzedek]

In I Corinthians 10:16 it is recorded: is this not the "cup of blessing" which refers to the ONLY cup of the Passover Seder...other than Elijah's cup at the end of the Seder,


No one is arguing that the Eucharistic rite is not based on Passover.

[visionary]

No one is arguing that the Eucharistic rite is not based on Passover.Paul is talking to the gentiles about keeping the Passover, another something that noahiders are not required to do. Yet Paul is councelling them like he expects them to keep it... and keep it in light of Yeshua.

[kivi]

kivi says: Unfortunately, it is a nasty and vicious comment that is not true. The Rabbis forbad evangelism on the part of Jews, the example of Herod was too great of an confirmation of their original warnng over 100 years previous when the Ammonites has been converted by the Hasmonean govt. Also, it was fully established Torah Law that once a convert finished the process and was fuly naturalized, their previous status as a convert could never be mentioned again. The quote you give from Jesus Christ does not fit the facts and is mean spirited.


Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Explain that one... I believe Yeshua is saying that there is something very wrong with the way God's laws have been interprested to mean and applied.

[kivi]

May I wish all the Jews a happy and restful Shabbas and all of the other members a productive weekend.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Explain that one... I believe Yeshua is saying that there is something very wrong with the way God's laws have been interprested to mean and applied.Hi. I wish more translations would use the Greek correctly.

The greek word is "Dry" a completely seperated word than "land". It comes from the Hebrew word #03004 as used in Genesis and in Haggai. Think Hebrew, even in the GNT :)

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Genesis 1:10 And 'Elohiym is calling to Dry/03004 yabbashah, land, and to confluence of the waters He calls seas. And 'Elohiym is seeing that Good.

Haggai 2:6 That thus He says, YHWH of Hosts: "Yet one little, she, and I am quaking the heavens and the land, and the sea, and the Dry/03004 yabbashah,"

Matt 23:15 "Woe to ye scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! that ye are going-about the Sea and the Dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638), ye are making him a son of geennhV <1067> twofold-more of-ye.

Luke 23:31 That if in the moist wood/xulw <3586> these-things they are doing, in the Dry/xhrw <3584>, what may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638)?

[visionary]

Rambam's Hilchos Issurei Bi'ah 14:7
What is meant by a Ger Toshav (resident alien)? A gentile who makes a commitment not to worship false deities and to observe the other six universal laws commanded to Noah's descendants. He does not circumcise himself nor immerse. We accept this commitment and he is considered one of the pious gentiles. Why is he called a resident? Because we are permitted to allow him to dwell among us in the land of Israel, as explained in Hilchos Avodah Zarah.

Rambam's Hilchos Issurei Bi'ah 14:8
We accept resident aliens only during the era when the Jubilee year is observed. In the present era, even if a gentile makes a commitment to observe the entire Torah with the exception of just one minor point, he is not accepted.



Rambam's Hilchos Melachim 8:11
'Anyone who accepts upon himself the fulfillment of these Seven Mitzvot and is precise in their observance is considered one of the Pious among the Gentiles (Chasidei Umot HaOlam - מֵחֲסִידֵי אֻמּוֹת הָעוֹלָם) and will merit a share in the World to Come. This applies only when he accepts them and fulfills them because the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded them in the Torah and informed us through Moses, our teacher, that even previously, Noah's descendants were commanded to fulfill them. However, if he fulfills them out of intellectual conviction, he is not a resident alien, nor of the Pious among the Gentiles, but rather, of their wise men.'Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, also known as Maimonidies, was born to an illustrious scholar, Maimon, in Cordoba, Spain in 1135 C.E, Although the piety and scholarship of the Rambam is widely recognized and accepted today, during his lifetime he was the center of many detractors. Rambam 1200's AD not something in Yeshua's day.

[visionary]

visionary:

What evidence do you have that G-d Fearers OUTSIDE OF ISRAEL were ever required to keep sabbath, keep kosher, keep religious feast days, etc.?

The very fact that they are called G-d Fearers shows that, like Noachides, they have not become Jews. You are in basic denial of what is going on here. G-d fearers are not the converts you think they are. They have attached to Israel, but they are not part of Israel. They fully remain gentiles.Corneleus was considered unclean if it wasn't for Peter's vision.

[visionary]

Acts 13:16 16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

We find that in this audience in Jerusalem at the Council the presence of those who "fear God" which is the term used for "non-Jews" who worship the God of Israel.

Due to bigotry and hatred by Jews toward Gentiles in the first century, the Jews had enforced and put upon Gentiles what God never did.....the requirement to keep the laws of God which had never been given to them as a people….such as circumcision.

Not something noahiders advocate.

I can imagine... Circumcision often, for an adult male, meant death due to infection and disease in the first century and this was an effective way to keep these “dogs” as arms length.

[kivi]

kivi says: Your p:confused:int is?


Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, also known as Maimonidies, was born to an illustrious scholar, Maimon, in Cordoba, Spain in 1135 C.E, Although the piety and scholarship of the Rambam is widely recognized and accepted today, during his lifetime he was the center of many detractors. Rambam 1200's AD not something in Yeshua's day.

[GerTzedek]

Vis: a G-d fearer was not the same as a Convert. A gentile had two very different choices. They could become a Jew, and take up the covenant, or they could remain a gentile as a G-d fearer and not have to be circumsized or observe the Jewish covenant.

[GerTzedek]

Corneleus was considered unclean if it wasn't for Peter's vision.

How is this dream evidence that Cornelius kept sabbath and festivals or kept kosher? It is, actually, evidence to the contrary. Peter was reluctant to spend time with who? With GENTILES. Why would an observant Jew not want to spend time with a gentile? Well, the biggest reason is that their home is not kosher.

[visionary]

How is this dream evidence that Cornelius kept sabbath and festivals or kept kosher? It is, actually, evidence to the contrary. Peter was reluctant to spend time with who? With GENTILES. Why would an observant Jew not want to spend time with a gentile? Well, the biggest reason is that their home is not kosher.
during that time period all gentiles were considered unclean no matter what they did... You were the one who brought Cornelius as evidence of a noahide which I disagree... stay on subject.... noahiders would have been accepted, considered clean, if Cornelius was one back then. But noahiders did not exist back then.

[GerTzedek]

Vis, I'm just going to let this go. I've known for a long time that this is simply too important to you for you to see anything other than what you need to see. Let's just disagree agreeably.

[ShirChadash]

How is this dream evidence that Cornelius kept sabbath and festivals or kept kosher? It is, actually, evidence to the contrary. Peter was reluctant to spend time with who? With GENTILES. Why would an observant Jew not want to spend time with a gentile? Well, the biggest reason is that their home is not kosher.

during that time period all gentiles were considered unclean no matter what they did... You were the one who brought Cornelius as evidence of a noahide which I disagree... stay on subject.... noahiders would have been accepted, considered clean, if Cornelius was one back then. But noahiders did not exist back then.

Since when do Noachides keep kashrut/kosher?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Since when do Noachides keep kashrut/kosher?If I may ask. Not sure what a Noachide is but if they are allowed to eat everything including [pork, oysters and eels LOL], then I suppose I would be one, though I do not fall under the Mosaic Law. Color me confused on that. Thoughts?

[Young LT]Genesis 9:1 And God blesseth Noah, and his sons, and saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth; 2 and your fear and your dread is on every beast of the earth, and on every fowl of the heavens, on all that creepeth on the ground, and on all fishes of the sea--into your hand they have been given. 3 Every creeping thing that is alive, to you it is for food; as the green herb I have given to you the whole; 4 only flesh in its life--its blood--ye do not eat.

[Melchizedek]

Vis, is it really helpful to link to this guy who both messianics and rabbinic Jews found to be a fraud? Where's the constructive value?

yochanan

Since when is claiming to be a Jewish convert, a fraud?

In one old posting on another board, under a different name, several of you dug up, I wrote my father is Jewish, and my mother's grandmother was adopted (though I never mentioned the circumstantial suspicions in my own family that she herself was Jewish) and for the longest time I considered myself and gladly accepted the identity of "gentile" based on that understanding at the time.

Yet in a newer posting I wrote that my father and mother were Jewish, based on a newer understanding (newer information from a family perspective, and a newer theology regardless), highlighting the theology of a conversion paper published at the JC site - and although I wasn't clear in the distinctions between myself "Melchizedek" and "Israel" on CF (for JC board reasons) the flurry of interest at the similarities generated in a single afternoon was faster than I could respond to and my slowness to respond was sadly interpreted as a act of deception and fraud. Believe what you will. Those that can not accept a sincere apology and care to repeat the charge, are those who probably could care less about committing lashon hara and to such people I can no more satisfy them than if I were dead (after all, that is the purpose of lashon hara).

I am interested in more serious discussions concerning the real subject matter: Jewish conversion.

The discussion was on Jewish conversion - from a Messianic perspective, and I still wish to address several issues raised.

First, is the common belief that the Acts 15 judgement was a reiteration of some early formulated Noachide laws. This belief is anachronistic, bad exegesis, and bad theology.

That there are several and varying lists of the so-called "7 Noachide Laws" is something ignored by some here in this discussion; and even more important, the implication of what it means to hold to the first Noachide Law mentioned in most of the lists - that is, the prohibition of idolatry, is an implication that one should examine the full scope of before concluding the "Noachide Laws" can stand by themselves as a standard of righteousness for those of the nations.

Tell me now, is idolatry defined by any nuance of the Noachide Laws, or is it defined by the rest of the Torah? How about not eating blood? What Torah explains the halakhic perspectives of what is and is not allowable in eating blood - kosher slaughter anyone? How about fornication? What Torah is there that explains what is and is not fornication for a Noachide? Shall I go through the whole list? Do you see the point yet? The Noachide laws can no more be a maximum list of Torah instructions for behavior, than the 10 commandments can be a maximum list of Torah instructions for behavior by themselves! The whole Torah is needed to define sin, since taking away from it or adding to it skews the instruction on the matter (and is itself a sin).

Second, Deuteronomy 29 is clear who the covenant is being made with: "those not here today" - which means everyone. Absolutely everyone. That Adam, like Israel, "breaks" the covenant (Hosea 6:7) is proof enough that The Covenant is made with all mankind - and this is the Torah - and we all break it at one time or another. That the Torah is given to the nations, then to Israel as a witness to the nations, and from Jerusalem to the nations the Torah will be taught, then the Torah is meant for the nations, and not just the so-called "Noachide Laws."

I also highly doubt in any theology spouting a substantively progressive revelation of the Torah, since according to the Midrash, Isaac and Jacob studied Torah for "years" at a time (14 years for Jacob in one account, and supported even by Rashi's commentary). I doubt it takes years to learn only 7 laws. Rather the entire Torah was studied and available, even if it was not written down until Sinai. (How Shem and Eber could have a "Torah academy" of 7 laws only, is beyond me).

Third, that the adoption of Gentiles into Israel is headed by none other than Abraham himself, and himself an evangelist to those passing by his tent, should provoke a studied response from those familiar with traditional Jewish conversion apologetics. Was Abraham only a Noachide + Circumcision, and that that package was the sum total of his obedience to Gods "requirements, commands, decrees, and laws?"

That circumcision is something a convert eventually does, is not something I disagree with. Traditional Judaism doesn't recognize a Jewish convert until they go through circumcision, accept halakha, and go through immersion, certified by a beit din. That this ritual of conversion defines true Jewish conversion, however, is something I see as only part of the bigger picture as to what the Torah teaches is the full definition of who is a Covenant member. A Covenant member, according to the Torah, is simply one who is given the Torah, and is obedient to it. Deut 29 is clear who the Covenant is made with. Everyone. Those that do not keep it, are cut off. Those that keep it, remain Covenant members.

That Torah obedience is what defines a Jew, I think, is universal with all Judaism (since it DOES include circumcision, obedience to halakha, and immersion, certified by witnesses). That this is the Messianic perspective, and is the perspective I also come from, I think, is one that is on solid teaching and instruction from the scriptures. In short, traditional Judaism recognizes as a Jew anyone who has converted to Judaism according to the conversion ritual mentioned above, yet the same method and application is done by a Torah observant Messianic believer from the nations! Such "converts" convert by simply accepting the Torah and being obedient to it! Judaism calls it circumcision, Messianic Judaism calls it Torah obedience! The behavioral result is the same! The only true difference between a Jewish convert and a Messianic Jewish convert, are the ones certifying the conversion! Since the apostles themselves were Jewish, and themselves formed a beit din recognizing believers from the nations who believed Yeshua is the Messiah and accepted his yoke upon them (Yeshua's way of Torah observance), then all believers from the nations today are given the same recognition as converts to Judaism!

That the rest of Judaism disagrees with the sect of Messianic Jews today, especially on malformed argumentative grounds using rebellious imposters (or sincerely ignorant but misinformed protesting messy-interested protestants) as strawmen (those claiming to be MJs but not keeping Torah, and this includes those discounting the "oral Torah" and its proper place in halakhic