Jordan cave may be oldest church - BBC

[Levahddi]

Neat article I found the other day http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7446812.stm



Jordan cave may be oldest church


By Matt McGrath
BBC science correspondent
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44735000/jpg/_44735205_caveafp.jpg The cave is beneath the ancient church of St Georgeous


Archaeologists in Rihab, Jordan, say they have discovered a cave that could be the world's oldest Christian church.
Dating to the period AD33-70, the underground chapel would have served as both a place of worship and a home.
It is claimed that it was originally used by a group of 70 persecuted Christians who fled from Jerusalem.
These early Christians lived and practised their faith in secrecy until the Romans embraced Christianity several hundred years later.
'Beautiful things'
Rihab is in Northern Jordan. The cave is beneath the ancient church of St Georgeous, itself one of the oldest known places of worship in the world.
According to Dr Abdul Qader Al-Hassan, the director of the Rihab Centre for Archaeological studies, the cave site shows clear evidence of early Christian rituals that predate the church.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44734000/gif/_44734822_jordan_rihab_1108.gif

Dr Al-Hassan says that steps lead down into the chapel which is approximately 12m long and seven metres wide.
There is a circular area of worship with stone seats separated from living quarters. This circular element, called an apse, is important says Dr Al-Hassan because there is only one other example of a cave with a similar feature, which was also used for Christian worship.
Dr Al-Hassan said: "We found beautiful things. I found the cemetery of this church; we found pottery shards and lamps with the inscription 'Georgeous'".
In the cave there is also a tunnel that leads to a cistern which supplied water to the dwellers. An inscription in the floor of the church above refers to the "70 beloved by God and the divine" whom the archaeologist believes were refugees from religious persecution in Jerusalem.
Dr Al-Hassan says that excavation of the tunnel and the cistern may yield yet more evidence about the lives of these early Christians.
"From the tunnel to the cistern is very important. We want to clean it and make an excavation inside it. We found a very old inscription beside it and coins also, and crosses made from iron." Other experts say they are cautious about the claim. They want to examine the artefacts and see clear dating evidence. The earliest confirmed examples of churches date from the third century, they say.

[Edial]

I also find it fascinating.

To understand the early lives of Christians and their persecution is very important.

I would really be interested in knowing what else they'll find once they continue the excavation.

Thanks,
Ed

[RadMan]

They found crosses?? I though crosses weren't an innovation till the supposed early RC church? How does a cross equate with the Bible verse that says he was nailed to a tree? This is very interesting and makes you wonder what the timeline of this cave is and how old it really is. Or it makes me wonder if the Roman crucifixions were really done on something that looked like the RC rendition of the cross. THe cross was actually was used in ancient Babylon and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz which in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name. I would think that if they found the iron crosses that far back that they wouldn't even be Christian. Since Constatine incorporated the pagan religions in with Christianity I would think that he introduced the pagan cross into existence for the Christians. 'Course what do I know.

[RadMan]

Also isn't Jordan part of the old northern part of Judah? Judah was also under Babylonian captivity long before the NT era. It just doesn't make any sense why there would be crosses in the cave unless the cave were a lot older than the NT Christian era. Again---what do I know.

[DaRev]

They found crosses?? I though crosses weren't an innovation till the supposed early RC church? How does a cross equate with the Bible verse that says he was nailed to a tree? This is very interesting and makes you wonder what the timeline of this cave is and how old it really is. Or it makes me wonder if the Roman crucifixions were really done on something that looked like the RC rendition of the cross. THe cross was actually was used in ancient Babylon and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz which in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name. I would think that if they found the iron crosses that far back that they wouldn't even be Christian. Since Constatine incorporated the pagan religions in with Christianity I would think that he introduced the pagan cross into existence for the Christians. 'Course what do I know.


I'd be interested to know where you got this from.

[RadMan]

I'd be interested to know where you got this from.Which part? I only remember the "Tau" because of Tau Seta the constellation and used that as a trigger point to remember the info that I had read years ago about the Babylonia god. I have forgotten soo much over the years and only remember buzz words that remind me of generalities and usually not specific. I guess the best way to find out is to research it out for yourself.

[RevCowboy]

They found crosses?? I though crosses weren't an innovation till the supposed early RC church? How does a cross equate with the Bible verse that says he was nailed to a tree? This is very interesting and makes you wonder what the timeline of this cave is and how old it really is. Or it makes me wonder if the Roman crucifixions were really done on something that looked like the RC rendition of the cross. THe cross was actually was used in ancient Babylon and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz which in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name. I would think that if they found the iron crosses that far back that they wouldn't even be Christian. Since Constatine incorporated the pagan religions in with Christianity I would think that he introduced the pagan cross into existence for the Christians. 'Course what do I know.

The earliest symbol that Christian used was the fish (Icthus - Iesus, Christus THeos Uios Soter), the cross wasn't popularized until after Constantine I believe.

Now I knew my history degree would come in handy some day! There is a simple explanation as to why there are crosses in this church. Christians had 2000 years to leave them behind. Its reasonable to think that the church didn't just sit unused for 2000 years. The crosses could have been put there at any time over the last 2000 years, especially iron ones. I bet those are crusade era.

Archaeologists (especially non-christian ones) probably do not know their church history very well. I find it highly unlikely that this church is as old as this guy claims. Most of the New Testament was written during the time period that it is claimed that this was a church, you would think that it might have mentioned along the way by Paul or another epistle writer perhaps...

[RadMan]

The earliest symbol that Christian used was the fish (Icthus - Iesus, Christus THeos Uios Soter), the cross wasn't popularized until after Constantine I believe.

Now I knew my history degree would come in handy some day! There is a simple explanation as to why there are crosses in this church. Christians had 2000 years to leave them behind. Its reasonable to think that the church didn't just sit unused for 2000 years. The crosses could have been put there at any time over the last 2000 years, especially iron ones. I bet those are crusade era.

Archaeologists (especially non-christian ones) probably do not know their church history very well. I find it highly unlikely that this church is as old as this guy claims. Most of the New Testament was written during the time period that it is claimed that this was a church, you would think that it might have mentioned along the way by Paul or another epistle writer perhaps...Possibly but the article says that it was underneath St Gerogeous which in itself was one of the oldest Christian churches. If it was buried then it wouldn't explain the crosses. If it was open and accessible it could possibly. I guess I just assumed that it was buried since all these artifacts were in the worship area and had not been ransacked. "Discovered cave" would also indicate that it was buried and predated the earliest chruch St Georgeous.

[RevCowboy]

Possibly but the article says that it was underneath St Gerogeous which in itself was one of the oldest Christian churches. If it was buried then it wouldn't explain the crosses. If it was open and accessible it could possibly. I guess I just assumed that it was buried since all these artifacts were in the worship area and had not been ransacked. "Discovered cave" would also indicate that it was buried and predated the earliest chruch St Georgeous.

Fair enough... I guess they cannot really answer the question until date some of the artifacts. I still cannot imagine Christians having money for iron crosses in the first century, especially when lots of them were ending up on real ones.

[Edial]

They found crosses?? I though crosses weren't an innovation till the supposed early RC church? How does a cross equate with the Bible verse that says he was nailed to a tree? This is very interesting and makes you wonder what the timeline of this cave is and how old it really is. Or it makes me wonder if the Roman crucifixions were really done on something that looked like the RC rendition of the cross. THe cross was actually was used in ancient Babylon and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz which in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name. I would think that if they found the iron crosses that far back that they wouldn't even be Christian. Since Constatine incorporated the pagan religions in with Christianity I would think that he introduced the pagan cross into existence for the Christians. 'Course what do I know.
Wikipedia says that crosses were already found during the first 200 years of Christianity, although they were rare.
Crosses were already associated with Christianity in the 2nd century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross

During the first two centuries of Christianity, the cross may have been rare in Christian iconography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconography), as it depicts a purposely painful and gruesome method of public execution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution). The Ichthys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys), or fish symbol, was used by early Christians. The Chi-Rho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi-Rho) monogram, which was adopted by Constantine I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I) in the fourth century as his banner (see labarum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarum)), was another Early Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christian) symbol of wide use.
However, the cross symbol was already associated with Christians in the second century, as is indicated in the anti-Christian arguments cited in the Octavius (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-04/anf04-34.htm) of Minucius Felix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minucius_Felix), chapters IX and XXIX, written at the end of that century or the beginning of the next,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross#cite_note-3) and by the fact that by the early third century the cross had become so closely associated with Christ that Clement of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria), who died between 211 and 216, could without fear of ambiguity use the phrase τὸ κυριακὸν σημεῖον (the Lord's sign) to mean the cross, when he repeated the idea, current as early as the apocryphal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha) Epistle of Barnabas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_Barnabas), that the number 318 (in Greek numerals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_numerals), ΤΙΗ) in Genesis 14:14 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Genesis&verse=14:14&src=!) was interpreted using numerology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology) as a foreshadowing (a "type") of the cross (T, an upright with crossbar, standing for 300) and of Jesus (ΙΗ, the first two letter of his name ΙΗΣΟΥΣ, standing for 18),[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross#cite_note-4) and his contemporary Tertullian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian) could designate the body of Christian believers as crucis religiosi, i.e. "devotees of the Cross".[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross#cite_note-5) In his book De Corona, written in 204, Tertullian tells how it was already a tradition for Christians to trace repeatedly on their foreheads the sign of the cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_cross).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross#cite_note-6)
The Jewish Encyclopedia (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=899&letter=C) says:
The cross as a Christian symbol or "seal" came into use at least as early as the second century (see "Apost. Const." iii. 17; Epistle of Barnabas, xi.-xii.; Justin, "Apologia," i. 55-60; "Dial. cum Tryph." 85-97); and the marking of a cross upon the forehead and the chest was regarded as a talisman against the powers of demons (Tertullian, "De Corona," iii.; Cyprian, "Testimonies," xi. 21–22; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," iv. 27, and elsewhere). Accordingly the Christian Fathers had to defend themselves, as early as the second century, against the charge of being worshipers of the cross, as may be learned from Tertullian, "Apologia," xii., xvii., and Minucius Felix, "Octavius," xxix. Christians used to swear by the power of the cross (see Apocalypse of Mary, viii., in James, "Texts and Studies," iii. 118).

Also, Christ was crucified on the tree. Yet there was also a cross-bar that was used.
Thanks,
Ed