The Call

[Flipper]

www.thecall.com (http://www.thecall.com)

Has anyone heard of this? More importantly, is it a cult that will brainwash my almost-10-year-old niece if her father takes her?

[seajoy]

I read through it a little bit. I'm not able to tell at this point, just whether or not it's a cult. It seems to only talk about prayer and fasting and not much else. I'm always leary of things that don't talk about Christ, first and formost, along with our sinful condition and need for a Savior.

[Flipper]

It looks, rather harmless to me. Her father wants to take her, and we believe him to be a member of a cult. Therefore I'm worried that it might not be so harmless.

We took her to Aruba last year for our other sister's wedding, so my sister doesn't have a lot of ground to stand on to say no, unless she can say that she will be harmed beyond just needing better instruction.

[seajoy]

What are the teachings of the cult that he belongs to?

[BigNorsk]

Well, I'm not an expert on this particular guy but I believe he's basically a spinoff of the Kansas City Prophets. And the Call is a call to become a Nazarite, prayer, fasting, haven't heard a lot of wandering around in the wilderness yet.

But in any case, I'm not sure the Call would rise to the level of control necessary to be a cult but if you get involved you are going to be pushed to put yourself under the third wave prophets and apostles and yes, there is a really, really good chance of waking up some day in a cult.

In any case, the first thing you have to do is abandon any resemblence to sola Scriptura, the Bible is a proof text, not actually a complete revelation of God.

I would not let my daughter go to The Call with anyone. If she does end up you should explain the whole prophets and apostles mistake the third wave is making and what The Call is going to do is make the case for a type of monastism by calling on her to give up all sorts of things in the name of somehow then being so holy that God will listen to her prayers.

That of course is not necessary, Jesus promised to hear our prayers and intercede and mediate for us. You believe that or you don't. Thinking that somehow you have to earn that is to abandon sola Christ and turn faith into something that is not faith.

The people who do this all for a living, and that's what it really is, a really good way to sell books and tickets and so on, are really good about being able to spin this all around and make it sound like it must fit.

It's really not something to subject a young person to. But it is something that you should talk about. She is almost certain to run into these people in some form, whether rabid denominations of one in some sort of house church, or a bigger organization or whatever. Even the music is pushing people that way with all the songs from Vineyard and other third wave groups out there.

Note some of the distinctives of The Call:http://www.thecall.com/Group/Group.aspx?id=1000030631

<H1>Distinctives of TheCall Institute




Intimacy with Jesus:
Enjoying intimacy with God is the foundation of all character formation and ministry. This is our ultimate mandate and reward.

Nazirite Lifestyle:
Like John the Baptist, we desire to live a fasted lifestyle because of our devotion to the Bridgegroom, Jesus. Thus, we voluntarily embrace a fasted lifestyle of radical obedience and devotion, refusing the legitimate pleasures of this world (Numbers 6) for the superior pleasure of knowing God (Psalm 16). This passion for Jesus is born not of legalism, but out of love.

24/7 Worship and Prayer:
As part of the community at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City (IHOP–KC), we are both cultivating intimacy with God through adoring worship and contending for breakthrough with fasting and unceasing prayer; we are asking for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to revive the Church into God’s highest expression of life in His Son and to usher in the Great Harvest. With an unending chorus of worship and ceaseless prayer, we desire to minister to the Lord day and night and to cry out for “speedy justice” (Luke 18) from one geographical location. In essence, our desire is to move beyond normal prayer meetings to inspire and nurture a culture of prayer (Isaiah 56:7; Psalm 132).

Centrality of the Word of God:
The Scriptures are taught from a scholarly evangelical perspective with an emphasis on practical application to ministry. "You read books to borrow from them the force to stimulate your activity, but I read books searching for the one who has written them." – Vincent Van Gogh. The Bible is the eternal (Matthew 24:35), infallible (Psalm 12:6), unhindered (2 Timothy 2:9), and inspired (2 Timothy 3:16) Word of God and as such, we desire to search out the Scriptures to better understand them and apply them to our lives.

Governmental Intercession:
Interceding “for kings and all those in authority” (1 Timothy 2:1-3) is a priority. We desire to see the transformation of our governments to reflect the Kingdom of God that is built on righteousness and justice.

Community / Missions Base:
To us, community living is not an option. We intentionally live in community because we desire to be one in heart and mind (Acts 4:32) in our pursuit of God.

Covenant Relationships:
The notion of covenant and covenant relationships is a profound Scriptural value that we desire to walk out within the community. Our relationships, then, are not merely humanistic friendships or controlling, but they are God-centered, God-ordained, and selfless.

Prophetic Ministry/Dreams:
We desire to be a “company of prophets” who seek to be friends that the Lord can share his secret counsel with (Amos 3:7, Genesis 18:17, Joel 2:28). We value the prophetic because it enhances our relationship with the Lord and because it is a helpful and useful guide within the bounds of Scripture.

Spiritual Influence through Prayer and Fasting:
The Scriptures make it clear that “…the kingdom of Heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force” (Matthew 11:12). To that end, we engage in prayer and intercession to gain “air supremacy” (Daniel 10) for the in-break of the Holy Spirit and societal reformation.

Generational Transfer:
In the last days, the Lord promised to send the Spirit of Elijah who would “turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to the fathers” (Malachi 4:5-6). Thus, we are committed to the principle of generational transfer through fathering and discipleship.

Holy Activism:
Because of the urgency of the hour, we believe that the House of Prayer needs to be a hotbed of holy activism.
</H1>So if your daughter were to get involved, she will be living in a commune. Praying and fasting 24/7, forgoing worldly pleasures, she will believe that any relationships she has such as to her covering Apostle and Prophets will be covenantal from God. She will be whipped into a "holy activism".

I would note that near the end the commitment to generational activism would cause me great concern is this group is something her father is involved in because he has committed to recruiting his children.

I don't know if it in practice would meet all the requirements of being called a cult, but it certainly sounds possible.

Marv

[BigNorsk]

I should note that anything you say that conflicts with any of their prophecies will be considered straight from the mouth of Satan, as will any opposition you have.

I really would advise going to your pastor with great haste and asking for help on this what is going to soon become apparent is an attack upon you and your family.

Marv

[Zecryphon]

www.thecall.com (http://www.thecall.com)

Has anyone heard of this? More importantly, is it a cult that will brainwash my almost-10-year-old niece if her father takes her?

Yeah, I ran across them when I was a part of the Second Life "Christian" community. Seems they had a big rally planned for 7-7-07, it was supposed to be a Christian festival of sorts, but with a little digging I found out it was a political rally designed to support some candidate who was running for something and had very little to do with Christianity at all. I wrote them off because they were deceptive in their advertising. Plus the people who were really pushing this place in Second Life were the worst kind of name it and claim it, WOF preachers you could imagine. So bad that they denied even being WOF, which they clearly were.

[synger]

Sounds like this event is one 12-hour day of fasting and prayer for revival.

Here's Lou Engle's website (http://www.louengle.com/)

Here's International House of Prayer's (http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=22914) website/statement of faith (pretty standard stuff).

Here's someone's critique (http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2007/05/17/whats-lous-angle/)of an Engle interview, and his followup (http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/more-on-the-lou-engle-schpeel/)on it.

Here's a bio (http://www.cbn.com/700club/guests/bios/lou_engle_070804.aspx)of Engle from TBN/700 Club, with more info about The Call/The Cause

Here's a video of The Call: Nashville, to hear Engle himself leading the prayer. (only listened to a couple minutes of it -- too frenetic for me, and I have charismatic background!)

The Call: Nashville (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDMQV04j610),

here's an article (http://charismamag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=894)from Charisma magazine (I think) about the Nashville Call, calling it "another Jesus movement"

Here's a critique (http://www.apostasyalert.org/REFLECTIONS/kingdom_prophets.htm)of the Nashville Call, from "Apostasy Today" (which made me snicker)

And here's a site (http://watch.pair.com/elijah.html)that describes how The Call (partway down the page) fits in with other parts of the "Elijah Revolution"

[synger]

Oh, and they have a "Beliefs and Past Controversies (http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000010561)" page on their website, too, that explains what they believe about such things as Latter Rain, Dominion Theology, prophecy, and Joel's Army. How thoughtful of them!

[RadMan]

There is so much blending of philosophies and mindests that make up groups like this. They borrow here, they borrow there and no one can tell exactly which denom they come from. I guess They don't want to admit what denom they are from as if to hide what is questionable about them and only promote what is an attention grabber, hype, name it and calim it or delving into the mysteries of God kinda stuff. They seem to be making themselves palatable to all religions. Almost reminds me of the Biblical warning of the one world religion and the beast that will control it.

[Radiata]

Well, the video was very inspirational. I would like to see how this all plays out, but as circumstances dictate, that's the same day we go for our TCL meetup in ST. Louis.

[Edial]

www.thecall.com (http://www.thecall.com)

Has anyone heard of this? More importantly, is it a cult that will brainwash my almost-10-year-old niece if her father takes her?
I developed this rule ... if a website has loud font with a tone of urgency - I skip the whole thing.

But what Marv and Synger presented was very good.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Edial]

Well, the video was very inspirational. I would like to see how this all plays out, but as circumstances dictate, that's the same day we go for our TCL meetup in ST. Louis.
Ha! :amen:

[reda]

Those kinds of groups are very deceptive. They like to play alot of mind games with scripture twisting. The god they worship is not the God of the bible but a force. Even though on the surface they talk of acceptance by God in any shape a person is in, their underlining doctrine is pure fear based. True salvation is not on their tongues just a doctrine of works and having a power that even defies matter itself. In other words, the lie in the garden (to be like god). They are clouds without rain.

[Flipper]

Well, my sister has been doing some more checking and wanted me to watch a video - probably the one posted here. Unfortunately, I didn't get home from work until almost 10:00 last night and I have to leave in a few so I'm not going to watch it until later. There's a lot of information here that she probably doesn't have, so I'm going to tell her where to find this so she can read it all.

The eerie thing - Marv - is that a while back we were talking about my suspician that my niece's dad is part of the third wave pentacostal movement, and you gave me a bunch of information, which I appreciate. This seems to prove it that much more. Scary.

I think she's going to sit back and wait until closer to the time before giving him an answer. They have a tendancy to cancel trips like that at the last minute, and he's currently laid off from his job and his wife isn't working - they might not be able to afford the trip. My niece is just looking at it as a trip to DC (boy would she be in for a shock).

Thanks everyone!!

[Flipper]

Prayers answered!! She just found out that she's not going.

Unfortunately, she was supposed to leave on Friday, and she's been telling everyone that her daddy was taking her to DC, so there's quite a bit of disappointment. Hopefully when she's older she'll understand that this was a good thing.

[Flipper]

She also got to go home to her Mama last night. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but I got the story as it unfolded on the way to meeing RadMan and seajoy for dinner - gotta love cell phones.

Her dad didn't have anything else planned for her birthday, which is today, and said he wasn't going to do anything with her. My sister was able to plan something last minute. So she calls and asks M's dad. M's dad tells her that it would be up to M - M heard that conversation. A half hour later M calls her mom in tears saying she decided to stay with her daddy. This was Wednesday.

Yesterday morning, my other sister calls M to wish her an early happy birthday and kind of to see if M might have changed her mind. Apparently that made her dad angry so he calls the sister that is M's mom and proceeds to tell her that HE's the parent, and HE made the decision that she stays. My sister tells her dad that it is his perogative but suggested that it's only a few short years before M will be old enough to say no to his visitation and maybe he might not want to burn any bridges now.

As a little background, according to the order, she was supposed to go back today, but because of this trip, my sister had allowed him to keep her. Now that the trip isn't happening, it is in my sister's right to demand her back. She was just trying to be nice about it.

So, M is back and she's going to have a great birthday that I'm going to miss because my CF friends are in town. That's ok, Aunt Flipper will more than make up for it. M likes big juicy steaks (she's really a meat eater - medium rare and everything), and I have some nice juicy ribeyes in the freezer. Yum!

[The Princess Bride]

I am not entirely sure why so many people have such an unfounded fear about "The Call", is it because people in the Christian community are bringing light the immoralities of this society to live TV?

The Call is about a restoring of America's values, the establishing of order and peace, decreasing the number of abortions by a SILENT protest (this is where the red tape with the words LIFE are used), praying for the Peace and Restoration of Israel and Jerusalem, that the men and women of God would RISE UP and fullfill the calling on their lives and not live in fear.

How is that a "cult"?

[Edial]

She also got to go home to her Mama last night. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but I got the story as it unfolded on the way to meeing RadMan and seajoy for dinner - gotta love cell phones.

Her dad didn't have anything else planned for her birthday, which is today, and said he wasn't going to do anything with her. My sister was able to plan something last minute. So she calls and asks M's dad. M's dad tells her that it would be up to M - M heard that conversation. A half hour later M calls her mom in tears saying she decided to stay with her daddy. This was Wednesday.

Yesterday morning, my other sister calls M to wish her an early happy birthday and kind of to see if M might have changed her mind. Apparently that made her dad angry so he calls the sister that is M's mom and proceeds to tell her that HE's the parent, and HE made the decision that she stays. My sister tells her dad that it is his perogative but suggested that it's only a few short years before M will be old enough to say no to his visitation and maybe he might not want to burn any bridges now.

As a little background, according to the order, she was supposed to go back today, but because of this trip, my sister had allowed him to keep her. Now that the trip isn't happening, it is in my sister's right to demand her back. She was just trying to be nice about it.

So, M is back and she's going to have a great birthday that I'm going to miss because my CF friends are in town. That's ok, Aunt Flipper will more than make up for it. M likes big juicy steaks (she's really a meat eater - medium rare and everything), and I have some nice juicy ribeyes in the freezer. Yum!
FLIP!! Every sentence of this post has a depth of complex soap opera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_opera
... (or theology :liturgy:).

What makes this complex, is that it is true ... :pray::liturgy::cool::)

Ed

[Flipper]

I am not entirely sure why so many people have such an unfounded fear about "The Call", is it because people in the Christian community are bringing light the immoralities of this society to live TV?

The Call is about a restoring of America's values, the establishing of order and peace, decreasing the number of abortions by a SILENT protest (this is where the red tape with the words LIFE are used), praying for the Peace and Restoration of Israel and Jerusalem, that the men and women of God would RISE UP and fullfill the calling on their lives and not live in fear.

How is that a "cult"?


The church (not denomination) her father goes to is a cult, IMHO. I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

I don't think a 10 year old has any business going to something like that. She doesn't even know what the word "abortion" means. She still thinks boys are yucky and they have cooties, for pete's sake! How would this edify her? It would just confuse her!

She definitely doesn't understand the concept of fasting. She's not old enough to grasp that concept fully.

[BigNorsk]

I am not entirely sure why so many people have such an unfounded fear about "The Call", is it because people in the Christian community are bringing light the immoralities of this society to live TV?

The Call is about a restoring of America's values, the establishing of order and peace, decreasing the number of abortions by a SILENT protest (this is where the red tape with the words LIFE are used), praying for the Peace and Restoration of Israel and Jerusalem, that the men and women of God would RISE UP and fullfill the calling on their lives and not live in fear.

How is that a "cult"?

I'm not sure how that's a cult. The concern is whether or not it is.

Do you think people should make a Nazarite vow? Especially young children like a 10 year old should be recruited by her father to make a Nazarite vow?

You'll have to excuse me if I'm a bit cautious about any group that has anything to do with the Kansas City Prophets. When you see a group like the Evangelical Free have to go to rather extreme measures to kick a group of people out, it kind of sends up warning flags to me. The E free aren't generally noted as being hard to get along with.

Marv

[RadMan]

http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/more-on-the-lou-engle-schpeel/

"Wrapped in prophetic language, Engle paints us a picture of a powerless god who has to make up for letting a culture slide. Engle’s god has to renew his vows to his children and needs them to fast and pray SO THAT he will move! He even (although perhaps inadvertently) says that it was Elijah and not God who broke Jezebel’s “spell.” Engle’s picture of God is weak and unable to give blessings that he intends for his children UNLESS they engage in a 40-day fast. Unbelievable. If we are to take Engle’s words as the words of the one true God, then the result of The Call should be a marked change in the immorality that has defined (and I’d be prepared to argue THAT WILL CONTINUE to define) America. Don’t get me wrong, I hope America turns around, but it won’t be because of our efforts to coerce our Creator thru some “holy fast” contrived in the hearts of men.
his is very much akin to pro wrestling. During the Monday night matches, the wrestlers come out and taunt one another. The threats escalate until the final culmination when the announcer blares: “THIS BAD BLOOD TO BE SETTLED AT SUMMER SLAM!!! Only available by pay-per-view.” It is also things like this that constantly hype up young Charismatics and drop them down after nothing significant happens or after the feelings wear off. This pattern is the path of burnout, disillusionment and possible departure from the faith entirely. May God open our eyes to the truths of his infallible word, for they always satisfy."


http://www.habitationofjustice.com/jason-upton-lou-engle-and-company-the-heresies-they-teach-and-why-we-christians-are-so-royally-screwed
"Engle’s movement though is not about that. He makes mild overtures about returning to the Lord and all, but what his movement is really about is changing the socio-political climate of an entire nation. His emphasis is on reforming America, not on reviving the church itself, despite the fact that the Bible clearly indicates things are supposed to get worse, not better, as we move ever closer to the end. He and his followers also don’t seem to realize that before God judges the world, He is going to judge His church FIRST:"

[Flipper]

FLIP!! Every sentence of this post has a depth of complex soap opera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_opera
... (or theology :liturgy:).

What makes this complex, is that it is true ... :pray::liturgy::cool::)

Ed

I think what makes me think it's a bigger thing than it may really be, is the fact that our parents are still married, and none of us had to deal with this so close to us.

Not like our parents are perfect by any means, but they never used us kids to get at each other. I know it goes on in countless broken homes, but it is an unfamiliar concept to us.

[The Princess Bride]

http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/more-on-the-lou-engle-schpeel/

"Wrapped in prophetic language, Engle paints us a picture of a powerless god who has to make up for letting a culture slide. Engle’s god has to renew his vows to his children and needs them to fast and pray SO THAT he will move! He even (although perhaps inadvertently) says that it was Elijah and not God who broke Jezebel’s “spell.” Engle’s picture of God is weak and unable to give blessings that he intends for his children UNLESS they engage in a 40-day fast. Unbelievable. If we are to take Engle’s words as the words of the one true God, then the result of The Call should be a marked change in the immorality that has defined (and I’d be prepared to argue THAT WILL CONTINUE to define) America. Don’t get me wrong, I hope America turns around, but it won’t be because of our efforts to coerce our Creator thru some “holy fast” contrived in the hearts of men.
his is very much akin to pro wrestling. During the Monday night matches, the wrestlers come out and taunt one another. The threats escalate until the final culmination when the announcer blares: “THIS BAD BLOOD TO BE SETTLED AT SUMMER SLAM!!! Only available by pay-per-view.” It is also things like this that constantly hype up young Charismatics and drop them down after nothing significant happens or after the feelings wear off. This pattern is the path of burnout, disillusionment and possible departure from the faith entirely. May God open our eyes to the truths of his infallible word, for they always satisfy."


http://www.habitationofjustice.com/jason-upton-lou-engle-and-company-the-heresies-they-teach-and-why-we-christians-are-so-royally-screwed
"Engle’s movement though is not about that. He makes mild overtures about returning to the Lord and all, but what his movement is really about is changing the socio-political climate of an entire nation. His emphasis is on reforming America, not on reviving the church itself, despite the fact that the Bible clearly indicates things are supposed to get worse, not better, as we move ever closer to the end. He and his followers also don’t seem to realize that before God judges the world, He is going to judge His church FIRST:"
I would say that knowing people who are currently serving internships at IHOP and hearing the reports straight from them goes a long way in my determing that over all "The Call" is a good thing. Experience certainly outweighs opinion, I do believe.:)

[BigNorsk]

Are you a marketplace Christian for IHOP?

Marv

[Flipper]

I would say that knowing people who are currently serving internships at IHOP and hearing the reports straight from them goes a long way in my determing that over all "The Call" is a good thing. Experience certainly outweighs opinion, I do believe.:)

I watched the promotional video, and in the video "Jesus" was not mentioned once, the only Bible verses quoted were from the Old Testament, and the cross was seen in a shot that lasted less than a second.

That's enough for me to know that it isn't a good thing, especially to a young believer.

[RadMan]

I would say that knowing people who are currently serving internships at IHOP and hearing the reports straight from them goes a long way in my determing that over all "The Call" is a good thing. Experience certainly outweighs opinion, I do believe.:)One of these days you're going to have to ask yourself "am I going to believe what men say or am I going to totally believe what the WHOLE Bible says?" and not just people taking passages out of context to support a premise"

[The Princess Bride]

Are you a marketplace Christian for IHOP?

Marv
Meaning...? Everyone has their own definement of "marketplace" so...guess I will state mine. I have the intention of visiting IHOP in the near future, hopefully within the next few months. My desire is to see God glorified in the places I visit, work, and go to school. Church and the home is not the only place where God should be given glory. The "market" place is a field of opportunity for sharing the saving and redemptive powers of Jesus Christ through not just words but actions. I believe actions are stronger than words, because people see actions.

So, yeah, I would consider myself to be a marketplace minister, but that is something that we are all called to be anyhow.

I watched the promotional video, and in the video "Jesus" was not mentioned once, the only Bible verses quoted were from the Old Testament, and the cross was seen in a shot that lasted less than a second.

That's enough for me to know that it isn't a good thing, especially to a young believer.
I haven't seen the video in eons, do you remember which verses were mentioned? And why is the fact that the cross shown for less than a second an issue? Jesus didn't stay on the cross.:confused:

One of these days you're going to have to ask yourself "am I going to believe what men say or am I going to totally believe what the WHOLE Bible says?" and not just people taking passages out of context to support a premise"
If I am not mistaken, there is not a Christian alive who has never failed to take a passage out of context. :wave:

Perhaps one of these days you may wish to acknowledge that God can move in ways other than just examples listed in the Bible. :)

Also, the manifest presence of God outweighs both the words from the mouth of man and passages from the Bible, and just because something is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible does not automatically make it wrong.

[Flipper]

I haven't seen the video in eons, do you remember which verses were mentioned? And why is the fact that the cross shown for less than a second an issue? Jesus didn't stay on the cross.:confused:



It was in Joel. I posted a link to the video in an earlier post in this thread.

Are you kidding? My whole faith is based on what happened on the Cross.

Again, why do you think this is appropriate for a 10 year old? I don't think I caught that answer.

[BigNorsk]

A marketplace Christian for IHOP is someone who plunders the wealth of the marketplace, the secular world, in order to give those riches to IHOP.

I see that Bickle uses the term "Treasure Bringers" and they are a part of one of his organizations called The Joseph Company.

Marv

[Edial]

... And why is the fact that the cross shown for less than a second an issue? Jesus didn't stay on the cross.:confused:
...
He did not stay on the cross, true, yet the message He gives, is the message of the cross.

I am not saying that these guys are antichrists. :) What I am saying is that our entire understanding of Christianity revolves around Christ's work on the cross.

In the Bible, the cross points to a lot.

Some examples:

1CO 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

LK 14:27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.


1CO 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.


GAL 6:12 Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ.

GAL 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whichthe world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

EPH 2:16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

PHP 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

COL 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,God made youalive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

HEB 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Lutherans do take these things seriously, because we recognize the message of the cross.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[The Princess Bride]

In order to abide by the forum rules of not debating in your forum, I respectfully request for either an allowance in this case for me to speak freely or I will start a continuing thread in an appropriate place.

[Edial]

In order to abide by the forum rules of not debating in your forum, I respectfully request for either an allowance in this case for me to speak freely or I will start a continuing thread in an appropriate place.
Please, you are welcome to debate here.
I think TCL Sticky is very fair.

Thanks,
Ed

Additional guidelines on debate:

In the main Lutheran forum: Non-members may ask questions and indeed even debate. However, there is a limit to how much debating people who are not full members will be allowed. They will not be allowed to use TCL for proselytizing for other faiths, nor are they to repeatedly try to make the same point after it has been answered by full members. In general, the moderators will decide when this point has been reached. Points debated should be backed up by scripture and not by another denomination's catechism or resource for information. In other words, do not come to TCL to try to "teach" the Lutherans because you feel they are wrong.

[BigNorsk]

Bickle has claimed he is annointed as a highest apostle meaning on the same level as Paul, and Peter. That he had an out of body experience and was taken up into heaven and there received his annointing.

Of course this is a problem. Paul talks of his being the last of all to see Jesus. That his was a most unusual apostleship. Yet along comes Bickle and many others like him and they want us to believe that Paul is normal. There were only a few Apostles who walked and learned with Jesus but lots and lots are now Apostles like Paul.

If I must think of the Apostle Paul a liar or Bickle, well it's unfortunate but I just have to reject Bickle, it's not that hard of a choice.

Bickle is not an Apostle. That's the end of it.

Why would people chose to follow someone who's foundation for the ministry is a falsehood?

I'm a sola Scriptura type of guy, you may chose to follow after claimed new direct revelations, I don't know what there really is to debate. You think he speaks directly from God, I think he's a fulfilment of the prophecy concerning all the false prophets and teachers who will come.

Marv

[Edial]

I checked the Wikipedia on Mike Bickle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bickle

It states that he promoted Bob Jones ...

Bickle's theology and methods have been challenged by many in the church who assert that he is in error in some of his practices and beliefs[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bickle#cite_note-12). Their criticism, warranted or not, focuses mainly on the basis of his theology, his allegorical interpretation of the Song of Songs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs),[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bickle#cite_note-13) and the moral failings of some of the prophets that he has promoted, including Bob Jones[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bickle#cite_note-14)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bickle#cite_note-15) and Paul Cain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Cain)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bickle#cite_note-16)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bickle#cite_note-17).

Is that the same Bob Jones who, due to his theology, made his flock of about 1000 men, women and children drink poisonous KoolAid and killed them all?

If this is that very Bob Jones, then Bickle certainly did not keep a good company ...

PR 24:1 Do not envy wicked men,
do not desire their company;
PR 24:2 for their hearts plot violence,
and their lips talk about making trouble.

Now, I am not saying Bickle is like Bob Jones (who apparently was evil), but Bob certainly did not have enough discernment to recognize what Bob Jones, or his theology, was all about.

Thanks,
Ed

[Flipper]

If you are talking about Bob Jones - he founded Bob Jones University: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Jones_University. I have my own reasons for not wanting to associate with anything having to do with the evangelist or the school..

Now if you are talking about Jim Jones - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones - and Jonestown, that's a whole other crazy person. I'm not saying anti-christ, just mentally unstable.

[BigNorsk]

No, it's a totally different Bob Jones. Nothing at all to do with the University.

This Bob Jones it the one who used the "fact" he was an Apostle and Prophet to get women to disrobe and dance naked in front of him.

He was really the leader of the Kansas City Prophets with Bickle. They really complemented each other.

Anyway, Bob Jones kind of went lower profile for awhile but he got married now so he's on the way back.

Marv

[Flipper]

Maybe it's something with the name.

[The Princess Bride]

Bickle has claimed he is annointed as a highest apostle meaning on the same level as Paul, and Peter. That he had an out of body experience and was taken up into heaven and there received his annointing.

Of course this is a problem. Paul talks of his being the last of all to see Jesus. That his was a most unusual apostleship. Yet along comes Bickle and many others like him and they want us to believe that Paul is normal. There were only a few Apostles who walked and learned with Jesus but lots and lots are now Apostles like Paul.

If I must think of the Apostle Paul a liar or Bickle, well it's unfortunate but I just have to reject Bickle, it's not that hard of a choice.

Bickle is not an Apostle. That's the end of it.

Why would people chose to follow someone who's foundation for the ministry is a falsehood?

I'm a sola Scriptura type of guy, you may chose to follow after claimed new direct revelations, I don't know what there really is to debate. You think he speaks directly from God, I think he's a fulfilment of the prophecy concerning all the false prophets and teachers who will come.

Marv

I've never said I endorse Bickle or Engle.

IHOP/CALL are "endorsed" by the two perhaps, but the countless hundreds of other men and women are pouring their prayers, tears, and sweat into a ministry because they want to see a change for God's people and America.

Yes, admittedly, there are flaws with his/their ministry, as with any, when you have carbon based creatures running something, that does tend to happen.

As for the Apostle deal, that is something that cannot be physically proved or disproved, if Bickle is being deceptive then he alone will stand before Judgement for it, not our judgement.

[RadMan]

There always seems to be controversy around evangelists. I've seen this nonsense going on for years. If they would just quote the Bible and not go on some tangent then they wouldn't draw so much attention. But they have to have some special revelation from God that nobody else has and they use the Bible to point to them as a prophet. Since nobody can really disprove it the evangelist goes with it and runs. All they way to a cult that makes money hand over foot. They use just enough Christian ideals to make themselves look credible and slip in the BS underneath. The only problem is they don't read all the Bible and especially the parts in 2 Peter that warns about pastors who lead people astray. They are going to be doubly screwed on judgment day. I would think that would scare the cr-p out of anyone.

[Tofferer]

A marketplace Christian for IHOP is someone who plunders the wealth of the marketplace, the secular world, in order to give those riches to IHOP.

Marv

Ok, I think I've missed something. What is IHOP? To me, IHOP stands for "International House Of Pancakes". I like to eat there from time to time. So I am quite puzzled. HELP!!!!!

:help:

[Edial]

If you are talking about Bob Jones - he founded Bob Jones University: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Jones_University. I have my own reasons for not wanting to associate with anything having to do with the evangelist or the school..

Now if you are talking about Jim Jones - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones - and Jonestown, that's a whole other crazy person. I'm not saying anti-christ, just mentally unstable.
Oops. :)

[Edial]

No, it's a totally different Bob Jones. Nothing at all to do with the University.

This Bob Jones it the one who used the "fact" he was an Apostle and Prophet to get women to disrobe and dance naked in front of him.

He was really the leader of the Kansas City Prophets with Bickle. They really complemented each other.

Anyway, Bob Jones kind of went lower profile for awhile but he got married now so he's on the way back.

Marv
And I'm certain he had a very good explanation for his followers to why he had these ladies disrobe ... (attempt at a joke).

I mean, if one is driven into fooling around by his own desires or by the satan's prompts or whatever, just don't use the Bible to justify it.
Be a man and admit being a sinner.

I agree with Rad, I don't want to be in their shoes.

I am not saying I am a better human being. And I have my own burdens in different areas ... I just do not want to be in their shoes. Slippery slope.

I actually feel bad for that guy.

[RadMan]

It seems like there's a need in everyone of us to be redeemed. We see people waiting for aliens that are technologically advanced and wise to deliver them from ourselves, we see people seeking in eastern religions and most of all we see people fall for these evangelists that promise heaven on earth with prosperity gospels, "name it and claim it" or health beyond measure. It's a magic elixir they want because they don't want to suffer for CHrist. They don't want to be inconvenienced while believing in our Savior. Being a Christian is alien to our sinful nature so we can't understand the concept of suffering, nor do we want to. When our faith is strengthened by reading the Word then and only then do we understand what being a servant and a martyr for Christ truly is. It's not going to be one big Disneyland.

[Zecryphon]

Ok, I think I've missed something. What is IHOP? To me, IHOP stands for "International House Of Pancakes". I like to eat there from time to time. So I am quite puzzled. HELP!!!!!

:help:

I think someone in their desire to be "relevant" hijacked IHOP, and for Christians it now means International House of Prayer. I don't know too much about it, but from what I saw of them in Second Life on 7-7-07, I didn't like it. I remember people talking about 7-7-07 and The Call was involved and when I went to look at what this organization was, I saw that it was a supposedly Christian group that backing a political candidate at that time.

[LutheranMafia]

Are they worshiping God or getting breakfast?