Do Jews believe this?

[Kris10leigh]

I'm just wondering if it is a typical Jewish teaching that Christians are not worshipping the same God. I have seen "idol" thrown around regarding who Christians worship. I know some Jews believe Christians are idol worshippers because they worship Yeshua, but what about God Himself?

I personally believe we all worship the same God.

[izarya]

I agree with you, seeing that there is only one God. Unfortunately orthodoxy=obstinacy.

[christianmomof3]

I grew up Jewish and I did not think that Christians worshiped the same God as the Jews did. I thought that they worshipped three gods - a father, son and ghost. Since Jews only believe in one God, and it seemed that the Christians worshiped three gods, it did not seem likely that they would worship the one God of the universe and then throw in two other false gods. I just thought they were all deceived. The whole heaven and hell concpet sounded kind of like the Santa Clause thing - be good and you will get presents and be bad and you will get coal or at least no presents -- be good and you go to heaven and be bad and you go to hell -- seemed the same to me. I don't know if all Jews think the same thing I thought, but when I was growing up in Judaism, we did not think that Christians really shared our God. That was almost 20 years ago and the world is more politically correct and the concept of "everyone's religion is ok if it is what they wish to believe and it does not harm others" is more of an accepted viewpoint today so there may be Jewish people today who do think that Christians worship the same God they do. I don't really know.

[Kris10leigh]

I grew up Jewish and I did not think that Christians worshiped the same God as the Jews did. I thought that they worshipped three gods - a father, son and ghost. Since Jews only believe in one God, and it seemed that the Christians worshiped three gods, it did not seem likely that they would worship the one God of the universe and then throw in two other false gods. I just thought they were all deceived. The whole heaven and hell concpet sounded kind of like the Santa Clause thing - be good and you will get presents and be bad and you will get coal or at least no presents -- be good and you go to heaven and be bad and you go to hell -- seemed the same to me. I don't know if all Jews think the same thing I thought, but when I was growing up in Judaism, we did not think that Christians really shared our God. That was almost 20 years ago and the world is more politically correct and the concept of "everyone's religion is ok if it is what they wish to believe and it does not harm others" is more of an accepted viewpoint today so there may be Jewish people today who do think that Christians worship the same God they do. I don't really know.
Reasons why I love message boards! I have never heard this perspective before. I can absolutely see where the perception comes from, thank you.

Now that you are more of a Messianic believer, do you now believe we are worshipping the same God?

[christianmomof3]

Reasons why I love message boards! I have never heard this perspective before. I can absolutely see where the perception comes from, thank you.

Now that you are more of a Messianic believer, do you now believe we are worshipping the same God?
Yes. I believe that there is only one God and He is the creator of the universe and He is triune in nature - three/one and is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, yet is only One. How He is that is a mystery, but He is nevertheless. Because the Lord's triune nature is not something we really can understand, many Christians have different understandings of the nature of God. Regardless of how we understand God, we are worshipping the one true God. I don't think that God expects us to understand Him perfectly in order to worship Him. The Lord knows our hearts and knows those who are His and who love Him.

[Qalevra]

I grew up Conservative. I was taught that the same G-d is being worshipped, but that Christians added two other gods to the mix, making them polytheistic. A Rabbi described it to me once when I was a teenager that it was akin to the Arab practices in the days before Islam, wherein they worshipped the G-d of Abraham alongside other deities, making them polytheists. We were taught that the only major monotheistic faiths were Judaism, Islam, and Zoroastrianism. Though honestly, not much time was spent on this subject.

[Kris10leigh]

Here's a hypothetical for you guys:

The Jews are still waiting for the promised Messiah, given that they do not believe Yeshua fulfilled all of prophesy. Let's say the promised Messiah were to come today. Understanding this is hypothetical and complex, do you suppose the Jews would follow this Messiah? Believe He was divine? Wouldn't the Jews then be worshipping two deities?

Am I wrong to assume that in waiting for the promised Messiah the Jews are waiting for a second deity?

[Qalevra]

Here's a hypothetical for you guys:

The Jews are still waiting for the promised Messiah, given that they do not believe Yeshua fulfilled all of prophesy. Let's say the promised Messiah were to come today. Understanding this is hypothetical and complex, do you suppose the Jews would follow this Messiah? Believe He was divine? Wouldn't the Jews then be worshipping two deities?

Am I wrong to assume that in waiting for the promised Messiah the Jews are waiting for a second deity?

You would be incorrect. The Tanakh makes no mention of the messiah having any divine nature. The messiah will be a man, annointed as king over Israel, the servant of G-d. When the messiah comes, there will be no need to leaf through prophecies and try to find hidden meanings to prove his identity. It will be plain, and the whole world will know (Isaiah 11:9). This is common understanding among all sects of Judaism.

[J0nDaFr3aK]

I grew up Jewish and I did not think that Christians worshiped the same God as the Jews did. I thought that they worshipped three gods - a father, son and ghost. Since Jews only believe in one God, and it seemed that the Christians worshiped three gods, it did not seem likely that they would worship the one God of the universe and then throw in two other false gods. I just thought they were all deceived. The whole heaven and hell concpet sounded kind of like the Santa Clause thing - be good and you will get presents and be bad and you will get coal or at least no presents -- be good and you go to heaven and be bad and you go to hell -- seemed the same to me. I don't know if all Jews think the same thing I thought, but when I was growing up in Judaism, we did not think that Christians really shared our God. That was almost 20 years ago and the world is more politically correct and the concept of "everyone's religion is ok if it is what they wish to believe and it does not harm others" is more of an accepted viewpoint today so there may be Jewish people today who do think that Christians worship the same God they do. I don't really know.

Hi there :)
Just correcting you on a point.. it is false to believe that we're saved through works - if you do well you go to heaven if not you're doomed. What saves it's God's grace through Jesus Christ, but yeah if we call us christians we have to live as such.. if i preach 'do not kill' but i do faith won't save me.. works have to be a reflection of my faith in God. Even abraham was justified according to his faith

Galatians 3:16, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

King David knew that sacrifices of animals weren't all. (Psalm 51:17) He knew God wanted first a pure and righteous heart. That's why Cain's offering was refused because hatred was found in his heart.

Ok, maybe you think I, as Christian, am deceived, but why do you say every religion's ok? Is not God a jealous God? Don't you belong to the people to whose fathers God made his promises?

2 Kings 23:19, "And all the houses also of the high places that were in the cities of Samaria, which the kings of Israel had made to provoke the Lord to anger, Josiah took away, and did to them according to all the acts that he had done in Bethel."

The OT is full of example like this. Every time a new king started to rule over Israel, if he was righteous, he'd remove idols away from the temple and destroy high places. I've always asked myself what high places are.. and I've come to this conclusion. Each high place is an improper way of worshipping God. God set clear rules on how his name is to be worshipped. No one could present his own offering but it all went through the priest.

Saul was rejected by God for presenting his own offering to God

1 Samuel 13:13-14, "And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee."

Uzziah got sick for burning incense in the place of a priest.

2 Chronicles 26:16-19, "But when he was strong, his heart was lifted up to his destruction: for he transgressed against the LORD his God, and went into the temple of the LORD to burn incense upon the altar of incense. And Azariah the priest went in after him, and with him fourscore priests of the LORD, that were valiant men: And they withstood Uzziah the king, and said unto him, It appertaineth not unto thee, Uzziah, to burn incense unto the LORD, but to the priests the sons of Aaron, that are consecrated to burn incense: go out of the sanctuary; for thou hast trespassed; neither shall it be for thine honour from the LORD God. Then Uzziah was wroth, and had a censer in his hand to burn incense: and while he was wroth with the priests, the leprosy even rose up in his forehead before the priests in the house of the LORD, from beside the incense altar."

You see, no personal or original ways were allowed in Israel. Everyone was to worship God in the way he wanted to be worshipped. There's only one way!

Saying there's only one way is an absolute truth.. but still saying that there's no absolute truth IS an absolute truth..

God bless you

[LittleLambofJesus]

You would be incorrect. The Tanakh makes no mention of the messiah having any divine nature. The messiah will be a man, annointed as king over Israel, the servant of G-d. When the messiah comes, there will be no need to leaf through prophecies and try to find hidden meanings to prove his identity. It will be plain, and the whole world will know (Isaiah 11:9). This is common understanding among all sects of Judaism.I wonder who the lucky parents will be? Do they have to be from a specific Tribe of Israel or just be Jewish. Thanks.

Jeremiah 31:22 Until when you shall elude, the daughter, the backsliding. That YHWH created New-thing in land. Female/05347 n@qebah shall encompass/05437 cabab a mighty-man/01397 geber.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

NKJV) Jeremiah 31:22 How long will you gad about, O you backsliding daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing in the earth -- A woman shall encompass a man."

01397 geber {gheh'-ber} from 01396; TWOT - 310a; n m
AV - man 64, mighty 2, man child 1, every one 1; 68
1) man, strong man, warrior (emphasising strength or ability to fight)

05437 cabab {saw-bab'} a primitive root; TWOT - 1456; v
AV - (stood, turned, etc...) about 54, compass 41, turn 34, turn away 4, remove 3, returned 2, round 2, side 2, turn aside 2, turn back 2, beset 2, driven 2, compass in 2, misc 8; 154
1) to turn, turn about or around or aside or back or towards, go about or around, surround, encircle, change direction

[christianmomof3]

Here's a hypothetical for you guys:

The Jews are still waiting for the promised Messiah, given that they do not believe Yeshua fulfilled all of prophesy. Let's say the promised Messiah were to come today. Understanding this is hypothetical and complex, do you suppose the Jews would follow this Messiah? Believe He was divine? Wouldn't the Jews then be worshipping two deities?

Am I wrong to assume that in waiting for the promised Messiah the Jews are waiting for a second deity?
Qalevra gave one Jewish viewpoint about the Messiah. Another view of some Jews is that the Messiah won't be a person at all, but merely an age of peace. At any rate, I don't think that there is any Jewish teaching or concept that the Messiah will be God in human form or divine. So, the Messiah as understood at this time by the Jewish people would not be someone who would be worshipped since only God may be worshipped.

J0nDaFr3aK, I agree with your assessment. I was just stating what I thought Christians believed before I became a Christian.

[J0nDaFr3aK]

christianmomof3, I'm so sorry, I didnt realize you are a Christian! I didn't even read your nickname lol

[Qalevra]

Qalevra gave one Jewish viewpoint about the Messiah. Another view of some Jews is that the Messiah won't be a person at all, but merely an age of peace.

You are correct. I neglected to mention this viewpoint, which is common in Reform Judaism, but not necessarily embraced by its Beit Din or by other sects of Judaism.

[Kris10leigh]

christianmomof3, I'm so sorry, I didnt realize you are a Christian! I didn't even read your nickname lol
^_^ Yeah, I kinda knew you were preaching to the choir, so to speak. ;) I'm glad you guys cleared it up.

As long as we're sharing mis-perceptions...

Christians (or at least I was) are taught that the only difference between Jews and Christians is that Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I suppose that's the simplistic version to teach children, but there is so much more to it than that.

Where in scripture can I find the prophesies of the Messiah? Is this too broad a question? :sorry:

[LittleLambofJesus]

christianmomof3, I'm so sorry, I didnt realize you are a Christian! I didn't even read your nickname lolWell her Username and the "pursuing Christ" is generally a good indication.
Guess I should put "Christian" near my username :)

1 John 2:18 Little-children, last Hour it-is, and according-as ye hear, that the anti-christ is coming. And now anti-christs, many, have become, whence we are knowing that last Hour it-is.

Reve 14:7 saying in great sound: "Be being fearful! of the God, and be Ye giving! to Him glory, that came the Hour of His judging. And worship Ye! to the One-making the heaven and the land and sea and springs of waters".

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

[Kris10leigh]

Guess I should put "Christian" near my username :)



Nah, it makes it more interesting when no one knows. ;) ^_^

[cyberlizard]

i struggled to find a way of understanding the deity of Messiah until quite recently when i read a fantastic paper called 'memra and metatron'. In understanding the deity of Christ this has to be one of the best things i have ever read which goes any length to explaining this concept within the Jewish understanding of the shema.

if anyone wants a copy just pm me your email and i will send it to you.

Steve

p.s. it draws heavily on the targums and the Judaism's of pre and post second temple periods. it is by ariel ben-lyman and runs to 29 pages.

[Kris10leigh]

Here is another thought. (Please bear in mind it's 1:30 AM and I probably ought to be in bed and not up typing. ;) I hope I make sense)

If the Jews believe/d that the Messiah was to be only a man, why do you suppose it is so wrong for Christians to believe Yeshua is a man? Why the trinity when it doesn't even fulfill Jewish prophesy? There seems no point in it to me.

As always, what am I missing? :sorry:

[GerTzedek]

There is a unique discrepency between Christianity and Judaism. On the one hand, Christianity clearly claims to worship the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and accepts and builds upon the Hebrew scriptures. On the other hand, Judaism is monotheistic in an absolute sense, and believes that G-d is non-corporeal. In fact, it is the third principal of the Jewish faith that G-d is non-corporeal and does not change. Thus Judaism will always be at odds with the Christian notion that a man can be the incarnation of G-d. For a Jew to worship JC, it is clearly avodah zara, "strange worship," aka idolatry.

But is it sin for gentiles?

You will get different opinions depending upon whom you ask.

Some will say yes, that idolatry is idolatry.

Others will say that for gentiles the boundaries are not so strict, that so long as a gentile stays within monotheism, they are allowed to experience monotheism through an intercessor, as the idea of an intangible deity is very difficult of human consciousness. In this reasoning, Christianity is permissable for gentiles. However, this reasoning also makes perfectly acceptable for gentiles the Egyptian monotheism of sun god. (In fact, I have read some rabbincal analyses suggesting that Akhenaten introduced monotheism to Egypt after exposure to Judaism.)

[GerTzedek]

Here is another thought. (Please bear in mind it's 1:30 AM and I probably ought to be in bed and not up typing. ;) I hope I make sense)

If the Jews believe/d that the Messiah was to be only a man, why do you suppose it is so wrong for Christians to believe Yeshua is a man? Why the trinity when it doesn't even fulfill Jewish prophesy? There seems no point in it to me.

As always, what am I missing? :sorry:

You are asking why Chrstians would make such a big deal about JC HAVING to be G-d?

I think it comes down to a basic flaw in human makeup, especially in certain personality types in their devotion to someone beloved--they just go a little nuts. You see it in SOME buddhists who tend to deify the Buddha even though Buddha made no claim to be a god and even though Buddhism doesn't claim that the Buddha was any sort of divinity. You see it in SOME superstitious Catholics who suggest the church deify Mary, forcing the Church to excommunicate them. You even see it in SOME fanatical Jews, who after the death of the Rebbe, utter such idolatrous nonsense as "there is no clear line beteen the Rebbe and HaShem." In the case of Chrstianity, it managed to get encoded into dogma. Now you all ain't got no choice in the matter if you want the title of Chrstian.

[GerTzedek]

You know, I have to say I just don't understand some of the assumptions I'm hearing Chrstians make on this board. I never made them as a Chrstian myself, and I find them to be thoroughly irrational. For example:

In the gospels, the leaders of the Sanhedron were scandalized by JC's inferences that he was deity. Do you not GET that this is because it is standard Jewish interpretation that Messiah has nothing to do with deity? They were not expecting someone claiming to be deity. If you want to know what Jews expect regarding the Messiah, there are plenty of clues right there in your own gospels, right there in the reasons why JC was regected--right then and there.

If *I* could see it as a stupid-teenage Chrstian, I see no reason why any other Chrstian shouldn't see it, and that you guys aren't is EXHASPERATING.

[J0nDaFr3aK]

^_^ Yeah, I kinda knew you were preaching to the choir, so to speak. ;) I'm glad you guys cleared it up.

As long as we're sharing mis-perceptions...

Christians (or at least I was) are taught that the only difference between Jews and Christians is that Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I suppose that's the simplistic version to teach children, but there is so much more to it than that.

Where in scripture can I find the prophesies of the Messiah? Is this too broad a question? :sorry:

Isaiah 53 ;)

Well her Username and the "pursuing Christ" is generally a good indication.
Guess I should put "Christian" near my username :)

1 John 2:18 Little-children, last Hour it-is, and according-as ye hear, that the anti-christ is coming. And now anti-christs, many, have become, whence we are knowing that last Hour it-is.

Reve 14:7 saying in great sound: "Be being fearful! of the God, and be Ye giving! to Him glory, that came the Hour of His judging. And worship Ye! to the One-making the heaven and the land and sea and springs of waters".

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

No really... I didnt realize she was christian.. i didnt even read her nick name.. :p :doh:

[Qalevra]

Isaiah 53 ;)

Isaiah 53 is a messianic prophecy, but not a prophecy about messiah ;)

[J0nDaFr3aK]

Isaiah 53 is a messianic prophecy, but not a prophecy about messiah ;)

Isaiah 11:10, "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Romans 15:12 talks about this too

[Torah613]

Here's a hypothetical for you guys:

The Jews are still waiting for the promised Messiah, given that they do not believe Yeshua fulfilled all of prophesy. Let's say the promised Messiah were to come today. Understanding this is hypothetical and complex, do you suppose the Jews would follow this Messiah? Believe He was divine? Wouldn't the Jews then be worshipping two deities?

Am I wrong to assume that in waiting for the promised Messiah the Jews are waiting for a second deity?

Nowhere except in chr*stianity is there a concept of a divine messiah. You are asking Jews about something that is so completely foreign to us it is not funny. It is a basic principle of Jewish belief that HaShem does not, will not, take corporeal form.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I wonder who the lucky parents will be? Do they have to be from a specific Tribe of Israel or just be Jewish. Thanks.

Jeremiah 31:22 Until when you shall elude, the daughter, the backsliding. That YHWH created New-thing in land. Female/05347 n@qebah shall encompass/05437 cabab a mighty-man/01397 geber.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

NKJV) Jeremiah 31:22 How long will you gad about, O you backsliding daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing in the earth -- A woman shall encompass a man."

01397 geber {gheh'-ber} from 01396; TWOT - 310a; n m
AV - man 64, mighty 2, man child 1, every one 1; 68
1) man, strong man, warrior (emphasising strength or ability to fight)

05437 cabab {saw-bab'} a primitive root; TWOT - 1456; v
AV - (stood, turned, etc...) about 54, compass 41, turn 34, turn away 4, remove 3, returned 2, round 2, side 2, turn aside 2, turn back 2, beset 2, driven 2, compass in 2, misc 8; 154
1) to turn, turn about or around or aside or back or towards, go about or around, surround, encircle, change direction

The biological (and I stress this because of the chr*stian differention) must be of the tribe of Judah and line of David. Also the mother and father must be married at the time of the conception as a mamzer is automatically disqualified. To my knowledge there is no requirement of hte mother other than she be Jewish.

yochanan

[Torah613]

Qalevra gave one Jewish viewpoint about the Messiah. Another view of some Jews is that the Messiah won't be a person at all, but merely an age of peace. At any rate, I don't think that there is any Jewish teaching or concept that the Messiah will be God in human form or divine. So, the Messiah as understood at this time by the Jewish people would not be someone who would be worshipped since only God may be worshipped.

J0nDaFr3aK, I agree with your assessment. I was just stating what I thought Christians believed before I became a Christian.

to note, this is a Reform (and reconstructionsist??) position. Most conservative Jews (such as Qalevera) and all Orthodox Jews believe in an individual Moshiach. In fact this position (favored by a slim majority at the shul I was attending at the time) is what drove me headlong from Reform to Frumality.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Here is another thought. (Please bear in mind it's 1:30 AM and I probably ought to be in bed and not up typing. ;) I hope I make sense)

If the Jews believe/d that the Messiah was to be only a man, why do you suppose it is so wrong for Christians to believe Yeshua is a man? Why the trinity when it doesn't even fulfill Jewish prophesy? There seems no point in it to me.

As always, what am I missing? :sorry:

You are missing the element from classical roman/greek paganism. Everything you see in traditional chr*stianity is essentially pagan with a very thin veneer of what appears to be torah thrown on. Witness Easter, chr*stmas, pictures of the divine, etc. In general, there is very little of 1st century Judaism left in chr*stianity.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

There is a unique discrepency between Christianity and Judaism. On the one hand, Christianity clearly claims to worship the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and accepts and builds upon the Hebrew scriptures. On the other hand, Judaism is monotheistic in an absolute sense, and believes that G-d is non-corporeal. In fact, it is the third principal of the Jewish faith that G-d is non-corporeal and does not change. Thus Judaism will always be at odds with the Christian notion that a man can be the incarnation of G-d. For a Jew to worship JC, it is clearly avodah zara, "strange worship," aka idolatry.

But is it sin for gentiles?

You will get different opinions depending upon whom you ask.

Some will say yes, that idolatry is idolatry.

Others will say that for gentiles the boundaries are not so strict, that so long as a gentile stays within monotheism, they are allowed to experience monotheism through an intercessor, as the idea of an intangible deity is very difficult of human consciousness. In this reasoning, Christianity is permissable for gentiles. However, this reasoning also makes perfectly acceptable for gentiles the Egyptian monotheism of sun god. (In fact, I have read some rabbincal analyses suggesting that Akhenaten introduced monotheism to Egypt after exposure to Judaism.)

Avodah Zara does not equal Idolatry. the Karaites engage in strange worship, but I would never accuse them of being idolatrous. Same goes for the samaritans.

However it is my personal opinion that Jews and Chr*stians do not worship the same deity. In Chr*stianity you have a concept of god that is so totally foreign to Judaism that it is almost literally a complete 180 of what the Torah (written and oral) says about HaShem. It is also my personal opinion that goyim need not be Jews, but they need to be monotheistic. Chr*stianity does not fit the bill in my opinion (for the record, yes I do understand the concept of the trinity and the fast speech that chr*Stians use to say they are indeed monotheistic, just like 3=4).

YOchanan

[J0nDaFr3aK]

You are missing the element from classical roman/greek paganism. Everything you see in traditional chr*stianity is essentially pagan with a very thin veneer of what appears to be torah thrown on. Witness Easter, chr*stmas, pictures of the divine, etc. In general, there is very little of 1st century Judaism left in chr*stianity.

Yochanan

I agree with you that most of the festivities of the 'Christian world' are pagan. but you're just talkin about *traditional* christianity and not biblical..

I'm from italy and the christian foundation here have been laid by the Catholics. Now, as a pentecostal I can tell you that everytime it's Easter over here, in my church the pastor reminds us of the Passover and not of the Easter Egg. Ok, seen from a Christian viewpoint, but we know that as Moses led Israel out of Egypt, so we believe God has taken us out of darkness and sin through Jesus' sacrifice. christmas is celebrated, it's traditional, not scriptural. and yes, christmas as well has pagan origins.. worshipping of idols and stuff like that.
Since we come from the lutheran reform, no images are allowed. Just like when Israel forged the golden calf and made God look like a beast that eats grass, so christians cannot either represent or worship images, because God can't be drawn nor sculpted into a statue.
veneration and worship of the Virgin and of the saints and of their images is traditional not scriptural.. so yeah, christianity is not about traditions like some have asserted through the centuries

Pure and biblical christianity comes from Judaism and has its origins in it

[J0nDaFr3aK]

Ok, i'm ignorant on this matter, but how do you explain the plural word Elohim? that also supports the trinity doctrine.

is it just like the latin 'pluralis maiestatis'?

[Kris10leigh]

Isaiah 53 is a messianic prophecy, but not a prophecy about messiah ;)
Ok. So (she asks for the fifth time, not just of you ;)) where CAN I find it?

Nowhere except in chr*stianity is there a concept of a divine messiah. You are asking Jews about something that is so completely foreign to us it is not funny. It is a basic principle of Jewish belief that HaShem does not, will not, take corporeal form.

Yochanan
What is your concept of who the Messiah will be? It has been stated here that one Jewish interpretation is that he will be man and another that he will not be a "he" at all, but a state of peace. What if Yeshua was just a man?

You are missing the element from classical roman/greek paganism. Everything you see in traditional chr*stianity is essentially pagan with a very thin veneer of what appears to be torah thrown on. Witness Easter, chr*stmas, pictures of the divine, etc. In general, there is very little of 1st century Judaism left in chr*stianity.

Yochanan
No, I get that. I couldn't agree more! I'm just very unfamiliar with Torah.


However it is my personal opinion that Jews and Chr*stians do not worship the same deity. In Chr*stianity you have a concept of god that is so totally foreign to Judaism that it is almost literally a complete 180 of what the Torah (written and oral) says about HaShem. It is also my personal opinion that goyim need not be Jews, but they need to be monotheistic. Chr*stianity does not fit the bill in my opinion (for the record, yes I do understand the concept of the trinity and the fast speech that chr*Stians use to say they are indeed monotheistic, just like 3=4).

YOchanan
What is your opinion of non-trin Messianics then? I believe Yeshua IS the promised Messiah of the Jewish torah (she states without being able to figure out WHERE to find such text! :P) but I do not believe "Christian fast speech" any more than you do.


...Easter over here, in my church the pastor reminds us of the Passover and not of the Easter Egg. Ok, seen from a Christian viewpoint, but we know that as Moses led Israel out of Egypt, so we believe God has taken us out of darkness and sin through Jesus' sacrifice. christmas is celebrated, it's traditional, not scriptural. and yes, christmas as well has pagan origins.. worshipping of idols and stuff like that.
Since we come from the lutheran reform, no images are allowed. Just like when Israel forged the golden calf and made God look like a beast that eats grass, so christians cannot either represent or worship images, because God can't be drawn nor sculpted into a statue.
veneration and worship of the Virgin and of the saints and of their images is traditional not scriptural.. so yeah, christianity is not about traditions like some have asserted through the centuries

Pure and biblical christianity comes from Judaism and has its origins in it
Sounds like a nice church for YOU to be part of. :thumbsup: I like to see churches reverting back to Jewish customs as much as possible.

[J0nDaFr3aK]

Ok. So (she asks for the fifth time, not just of you ;)) where CAN I find it?

in the bible? is that what you mean?

[Kris10leigh]

There is a unique discrepency between Christianity and Judaism. On the one hand, Christianity clearly claims to worship the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and accepts and builds upon the Hebrew scriptures. On the other hand, Judaism is monotheistic in an absolute sense, and believes that G-d is non-corporeal. In fact, it is the third principal of the Jewish faith that G-d is non-corporeal and does not change. Thus Judaism will always be at odds with the Christian notion that a man can be the incarnation of G-d. For a Jew to worship JC, it is clearly avodah zara, "strange worship," aka idolatry.

But is it sin for gentiles?

You will get different opinions depending upon whom you ask.

Some will say yes, that idolatry is idolatry.

Others will say that for gentiles the boundaries are not so strict, that so long as a gentile stays within monotheism, they are allowed to experience monotheism through an intercessor, as the idea of an intangible deity is very difficult of human consciousness. In this reasoning, Christianity is permissable for gentiles. However, this reasoning also makes perfectly acceptable for gentiles the Egyptian monotheism of sun god. (In fact, I have read some rabbincal analyses suggesting that Akhenaten introduced monotheism to Egypt after exposure to Judaism.)
Thank you for this entire post. Very informative. :thumbsup:

You are asking why Chrstians would make such a big deal about JC HAVING to be G-d?

I think it comes down to a basic flaw in human makeup, especially in certain personality types in their devotion to someone beloved--they just go a little nuts. You see it in SOME buddhists who tend to deify the Buddha even though Buddha made no claim to be a god and even though Buddhism doesn't claim that the Buddha was any sort of divinity. You see it in SOME superstitious Catholics who suggest the church deify Mary, forcing the Church to excommunicate them. You even see it in SOME fanatical Jews, who after the death of the Rebbe, utter such idolatrous nonsense as "there is no clear line beteen the Rebbe and HaShem." In the case of Chrstianity, it managed to get encoded into dogma. Now you all ain't got no choice in the matter if you want the title of Chrstian.
Interesting, and I see much of what you are saying. This is precisely why I do not believe in the trinity doctrine, yet you and I have butted heads on this issue. I think we're miscommunicating somewhere.

You know, I have to say I just don't understand some of the assumptions I'm hearing Chrstians make on this board. I never made them as a Chrstian myself, and I find them to be thoroughly irrational. For example:

In the gospels, the leaders of the Sanhedron were scandalized by JC's inferences that he was deity. Do you not GET that this is because it is standard Jewish interpretation that Messiah has nothing to do with deity? They were not expecting someone claiming to be deity. If you want to know what Jews expect regarding the Messiah, there are plenty of clues right there in your own gospels, right there in the reasons why JC was regected--right then and there.

If *I* could see it as a stupid-teenage Chrstian, I see no reason why any other Chrstian shouldn't see it, and that you guys aren't is EXHASPERATING.
:doh:I was with you right up until this post.

Of course most Christians don't "GET" that this is because of of the standard Jewish interpretation of the Messiah. Christians aren't taught the standard JEWISH interpretation. If your church taught you that, well then bully for you.

Please show me the "plenty of clues" right there in my own gospels. I've been begging for it for quite some time now!

[Kris10leigh]

in the bible? is that what you mean?
^_^ No, but thanks for trying. ;)

I'm looking for scripture that specifically states what the Jews are looking for in the promised Messiah? Is it in the Christian Bible? Somewhere in the OT?

I'm not very familiar with the OT and am still learning.

[Torah613]

the concept of Moshiach is not clear in the TaNaKh. Its discussed more in depth in the Talmud.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

btw, I view non-trins in an entirely different category.

Yochanan

[Kris10leigh]

the concept of Moshiach is not clear in the TaNaKh. Its discussed more in depth in the Talmud.

Yochanan
I wasn't going to open my mouth and reveal my ignorance, but since my DH read this and also went "huh", I'll be brave.

I don't know what "Moshiach" is, am not clear on the difference between "Tanakh" and "Torah" and don't know what Talmud is.

So your post reads "The concept of geotshnitzle is not clear in the hantakanook. It's dicussed more in depth in the halbawhatzit." ;)

[christianmomof3]

I wasn't going to open my mouth and reveal my ignorance, but since my DH read this and also went "huh", I'll be brave.

I don't know what "Moshiach" is, am not clear on the difference between "Tanakh" and "Torah" and don't know what Talmud is.

So your post reads "The concept of geotshnitzle is not clear in the hantakanook. It's dicussed more in depth in the halbawhatzit." ;)
Moshiach is Messiah, TaNaKh is the Torah - generally used to refer to the first 5 books of the Old Testament but sometimes used to refer to the entire New Testament. Talmud is other Jewish writings - here are some explanations of that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

[Torah613]

Ok. Moshiach=Messiah. Tanakh=our scriptures, the torah, prophets, writings, and five megillot. Talmud is a compendum of Jewish literature that explains in depth the torah. The Talmud contains the oral tradition that was passed down orally from Moses to the time it was written down (in first centure CE).

Yochanan

[Torah613]

actually Tanakh is the entirety of what you would call the old testement (well kind of--there are differences) whereas Torah is just hte first five books.

Yochanan

[Qalevra]

I'm looking for scripture that specifically states what the Jews are looking for in the promised Messiah? Is it in the Christian Bible? Somewhere in the OT?

I'm not very familiar with the OT and am still learning.

Yochanan is right in this regard. The Tanakh does not clearly lay out in one systematic passage the prophecies of the messiah on a personal level. However, a passage like Isaiah 11 does offer some insight. When identifying the messiah, the personal traits are not as important as the accomplishments, and the results of the messiah's coming. That is where the Jewish people find hope. These accomplishments and results are more widely laid out throughout the Tanakh.

I may be speaking out of turn and oversimplifying this, but it seems that some of the messianic prophecies that Christians defer to a second coming, the Jews expect to happen the first time, because the Tanakh makes no indication that messiah will need a reincarnation or second go-round to bring about the fulfillment of messianic prophecies.

[GerTzedek]

Of course most Christians don't "GET" that this is because of of the standard Jewish interpretation of the Messiah. Christians aren't taught the standard JEWISH interpretation. If your church taught you that, well then bully for you.

Please show me the "plenty of clues" right there in my own gospels. I've been begging for it for quite some time now!

My church didn't "teach me." It was obvious from the gospels. It's called noticing the details while reading. Listen carefully to the easy logic. JC says things like "I am", a direct reference to HaShem's self identification at the burning bush. Now, was the reaction of the religious leaders, "Oh my gosh, it could be the Messiah!" No! Their response was, "Blasphemy!" The ONLY possible conclusion is that the standard belief is that they are not expecting deity.

[Thornicus]

I personally believe we all worship the same God.

Practicing Jews reject Jesus Christ, who is God (along with the Father and Holy Ghost). How, then, could we possibly worship the same God? :)

[Torah613]

whereas practicing chr*Stians worship three deities (none of them G-d) instead of the G-d who stood at sinai and gave us the Torah. You can keep your polytheism thanks! Ok, so that is more in jest than anything else.

But seriously, we do not worship the same G-d. We worship deities at opposite ends of hte spectrum. Yes there is but one G-d, but He is not worshipped by all man.

Yochanan

[J0nDaFr3aK]

Isaiah 61:1, "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;"

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me...

I have a question. Who is the Spirit of the Lord to you?

[Der Alter]

whereas practicing chr*Stians worship three deities (none of them G-d) [1.] instead of the G-d who stood at sinai and gave us the Torah.[2.] You can keep your polytheism thanks![3.] Ok, so that is more in jest than anything else.

But seriously, we do not worship the same G-d.[4.] We worship deities at opposite ends of hte spectrum.[5.] Yes there is but one G-d, but He is not worshipped by all man.

Yochanan

Yet another empty post by someone who quit evidently never read anything about the doctrine of the Trinity. I have enumerated the false assumptions/presuppositions in your post. If you wish to be taken seriously I strongly suggest you do a little reading on the Trinity from Christian sources. I would not think about trying to tell you what you believe, I expect the same courtesy from you.

A good book on this topic is Trinity Evidence and Issues by Robert Morey. I was led to the book by a former adamant oneness pentecostal.

[Kris10leigh]

Lovely how this post went from a discussion to a belief bash. :doh:

Practicing Jews reject Jesus Christ, who is God (along with the Father and Holy Ghost). How, then, could we possibly worship the same God? :)
Not all believe as you do. In my opinion, Jews do not believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah, who was sent to us by God. In my opinion, separate from God...the same God.

whereas practicing chr*Stians worship three deities (none of them G-d) instead of the G-d who stood at sinai and gave us the Torah. You can keep your polytheism thanks! Ok, so that is more in jest than anything else.

Yochanan
I don't see how you say that in jest. I think the whole trinity doctrine came about because Christians needed to reconcile the fact that they were worshipping three gods. However, again in my opinion, it IS the same God, I just think many Christians do not understand the nature of this same God.

Isaiah 61:1, "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;"

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me...

I have a question. Who is the Spirit of the Lord to you?
I think the "Spirit of the Lord" is simply God, perhaps soul, just as you and I have a soul, but not a separate being. What is the Spirit of the Lord to YOU? ;)

Yet another empty post by someone who quit evidently never read anything about the doctrine of the Trinity. I have enumerated the false assumptions/presuppositions in your post. If you wish to be taken seriously I strongly suggest you do a little reading on the Trinity from Christian sources. I would not think about trying to tell you what you believe, I expect the same courtesy from you.

A good book on this topic is Trinity Evidence and Issues by Robert Morey. I was led to the book by a former adamant oneness pentecostal.
I'm not sure how you can claim that someone who rejects the trinity has never read anything about it. That's like saying that a Jew who doesn't believe Yeshua was the promised Messiah never actually heard of Him. Many people actually make informed decisions by reading the opposing side. I take Yochanan very seriously regardless of any differences we may have in our beliefs.

[Torah613]

Yet another empty post by someone who quit evidently never read anything about the doctrine of the Trinity. I have enumerated the false assumptions/presuppositions in your post. If you wish to be taken seriously I strongly suggest you do a little reading on the Trinity from Christian sources. I would not think about trying to tell you what you believe, I expect the same courtesy from you.

A good book on this topic is Trinity Evidence and Issues by Robert Morey. I was led to the book by a former adamant oneness pentecostal.

Used to be a seminarian (before I made T'shuva--B"H) so I am well aware of hte ins and outs of the trinity doctrine. I have rejected it not based on ignorance, but on the truth of HaShem's Torah.

And nor am I telling you what to believe, simply saying the truth as I see it. We do not worship the same G-d, but goyim are not required to worship the same G-d--simply to be monotheists.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

Yet another empty post by someone who quit evidently never read anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

uhm

^_^

[Torah613]

notice that I said nothing of the horrendous grammatical errors in his post.

Yochanan

[J0nDaFr3aK]

I think the "Spirit of the Lord" is simply God, perhaps soul, just as you and I have a soul, but not a separate being. What is the Spirit of the Lord to YOU?Why would you believe God has a soul (though not separated from Him) but reject the trinity doctrine which states that God is triune, made up of 3 persons (or beings) not separated from one another?

[Torah613]

Lovely how this post went from a discussion to a belief bash. :doh:


Not all believe as you do. In my opinion, Jews do not believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah, who was sent to us by God. In my opinion, separate from God...the same God.


I don't see how you say that in jest. I think the whole trinity doctrine came about because Christians needed to reconcile the fact that they were worshipping three gods. However, again in my opinion, it IS the same God, I just think many Christians do not understand the nature of this same God.


I think the "Spirit of the Lord" is simply God, perhaps soul, just as you and I have a soul, but not a separate being. What is the Spirit of the Lord to YOU? ;)


I'm not sure how you can claim that someone who rejects the trinity has never read anything about it. That's like saying that a Jew who doesn't believe Yeshua was the promised Messiah never actually heard of Him. Many people actually make informed decisions by reading the opposing side. I take Yochanan very seriously regardless of any differences we may have in our beliefs.

I was attempting to mimic the tone of hte previous poster. I have the utmost respect for goyim. If you are a monotheist and observe the rest of the noachide laws (The only ones binding on goyim) than you are a-ok in my book. But the Jewish concept of G-d and the Chr*stian concept of G-d (even among the oneness folk) is entirely different. Only Jews are obligated to worship the Jewish G-d, to worship HaShem. Now if you want to, than so be it. But simply following the noachide laws automatically makes a goy a Ger Toshav (righteous gentile).

Yochanan

[Kris10leigh]

I was attempting to mimic the tone of hte previous poster. I have the utmost respect for goyim. If you are a monotheist and observe the rest of the noachide laws (The only ones binding on goyim) than you are a-ok in my book. But the Jewish concept of G-d and the Chr*stian concept of G-d (even among the oneness folk) is entirely different. Only Jews are obligated to worship the Jewish G-d, to worship HaShem. Now if you want to, than so be it. But simply following the noachide laws automatically makes a goy a Ger Toshav (righteous gentile).

Yochanan
Yes, I got that. ;) But I still don't see how what you were saying was in jest, except as you said to mimic the tone of the above post. I think I get that. To me what you said "in jest" is actually what you believe and therefore not in jest...except in tone? ^_^ Ah, never mind! ;)

[Torah613]

I was attempting to mimic the judgementalism of hte above post. However, I do not hold the judgementalism, but do believe that chr*stians of the trinitarian variety and Jews worship different deities. As stated earlier, non-trins are a kinda gray area.

Yochanan

[Kris10leigh]

Why would you believe God has a soul (though not separated from Him) but reject the trinity doctrine which states that God is triune, made up of 3 persons (or beings) not separated from one another?
Not to turn this into yet another trinity debate ;) but...

I believe I have a soul, therefore it is not so far fetched to believe that God also has one. When my loved ones are far away from me, I say things like "My spirit (or my heart) will be with you on your journey." I believe God sends forth His spirit in much the same way, only more powerfully because He is God. I worship God who has a spirit, not separate from Him and not to be worshipped. I praise (not worship) Yeshua who is His son. I do not believe that Yeshua IS God.

[J0nDaFr3aK]

Not to turn this into yet another trinity debate ;) but...

I believe I have a soul, therefore it is not so far fetched to believe that God also has one. When my loved ones are far away from me, I say things like "My spirit (or my heart) will be with you on your journey." I believe God sends forth His spirit in much the same way, only more powerfully because He is God. I worship God who has a spirit, not separate from Him and not to be worshipped. I praise (not worship) Yeshua who is His son. I do not believe that Yeshua IS God.

so you think that spirit and soul are the same thing dont you?

[GerTzedek]

Yet another empty post by someone who quit evidently never read anything about the doctrine of the Trinity. I have enumerated the false assumptions/presuppositions in your post. If you wish to be taken seriously I strongly suggest you do a little reading on the Trinity from Christian sources. I would not think about trying to tell you what you believe, I expect the same courtesy from you.

You apparently don't know our little group very well. You will seldom find a bunch of Jews as knowledgable on Chrstianity as this one, mostly because this group spent time in the church, many raised in it, some even scholars from Bible Colleges and Seminaries.

Or at least, what would be considered scholars in the Chrstian world. Moving into Jewish community where scholarship is truly valued is quite a culture shock. In the Christian world, being educated meant being ignored and resented by others and often in a state of irritation with their simplistic approaches. Now in Jewish community I find myself at the other end of the spectrum, in the presence of those who have spent their lives in deep study of Scrupture and it is I who am uneducated.

[Torah613]

very well said Ger! perhaps our little groups propensity towards study when we were chr*stian was because deep down we realized that our neshamot were Jewish and thus craved study?

Yochanan

[GerTzedek]

Here is my experience. I have loved, adored, worshipped, served, and obeyed the same G-d all my life. For most of my life I needed to address him as JC. Now I don't.

My son asked me, "Mom, how is it that you could love JC all your life and now suddenly you don't?" I took him to the directional lamp, and wrote JC's name on a piece of paper and held it up to the lamp. I said, "All my life, this light has shined. This is the light that I have loved. Now this is what has happened." And I let the paper fall to the ground. "You see, the light is still there. But I don't have to see it through the name anymore. It's the same light it always was. It's the same light I always loved, always worshipped, always served."

[anisavta]

Back to Isaiah 61:1 ""The Spirit of the Lord is upon me.."
Who is the Spirit and who is the 'me'.
Also back to Elohim. Plural unity?

[GerTzedek]

Not at all. We have examples of this in English as well. One deer, many deer. One fish, many fish. You know whether it is singular or plural depending on context.

[Torah613]

Here's a guess to your first question, looking at the context, that the "spirit of hte lord" would be upon Issaiah.

Yochanan

[ChazakEmunah]

My church didn't "teach me." It was obvious from the gospels. It's called noticing the details while reading. Listen carefully to the easy logic. JC says things like "I am", a direct reference to HaShem's self identification at the burning bush. Now, was the reaction of the religious leaders, "Oh my gosh, it could be the Messiah!" No! Their response was, "Blasphemy!" The ONLY possible conclusion is that the standard belief is that they are not expecting deity.
Of course there are some scholars who believe that entire episode to be a much later (read trinitarian) addition to the original manuscripts...

[ChavaK]

I'm just wondering if it is a typical Jewish teaching that Christians are not worshipping the same God. I have seen "idol" thrown around regarding who Christians worship. I know some Jews believe Christians are idol worshippers because they worship Yeshua, but what about God Himself?

I personally believe we all worship the same God.

As a rule, Jews do not consider Christians idol worshipers, but we do
consider any Jew who has accepted Christian beliefs to be involved in it.

There are variances of opinions as to whether Christians and Jews worship
the same G-d. My opinion, and what I have been taught, is no we do not.
Not only the trinity, but the belief that G-d would become human sets us
apart, amongst other things...

[ChavaK]

Practicing Jews reject Jesus Christ, who is God (along with the Father and Holy Ghost). How, then, could we possibly worship the same God? :)

I agree, we do not worship the same G-d; particularly for the reason
that Christians worship Jesus, who Jews see as a human and nothing
more, as G-d.

[ChavaK]

Here's a hypothetical for you guys:

The Jews are still waiting for the promised Messiah, given that they do not believe Yeshua fulfilled all of prophesy. Let's say the promised Messiah were to come today. Understanding this is hypothetical and complex, do you suppose the Jews would follow this Messiah? Believe He was divine? Wouldn't the Jews then be worshipping two deities?
We would not follow any moshiach that claimed to be divine, as we
do not accept that moshiach will be anything more than a mortal human.

Am I wrong to assume that in waiting for the promised Messiah the Jews are waiting for a second deity?

Yes, you would be wrong because the moshiach will not be divine....
:wave:

[Kris10leigh]

We would not follow any moshiach that claimed to be divine, as we
do not accept that moshiach will be anything more than a mortal human.


Yes, you would be wrong because the moshiach will not be divine....
:wave:
Again, this concept fascinates me. I hesitate to say that I believe Yeshua is just a man because it's such a taboo thing to say in the Christian world. Apparently I can't be Christian and believe Yeshua is not divine. I have stated many, many times that my belief is that we have God and His son Yeshua, the Messiah. I do not believe that Yeshua IS God and I'm very close to believing Yeshua is just a man, but it seems blasphemous to say. Even every unitarian or non-trin person I've ever spoken with on this board believes that Yeshua is somehow divine, though the reasoning is not logical to me.

And yet, the Jews, from whom Yeshua came, believe and have always believed (I assume from these posts) that the Messiah would not be divine. So why is it so blasphemous and strange a concept that I would think that?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Again, this concept fascinates me. I hesitate to say that I believe Yeshua is just a man because it's such a taboo thing to say in the Christian world. Apparently I can't be Christian and believe Yeshua is not divine. I have stated many, many times that my belief is that we have God and His son Yeshua, the Messiah. I do not believe that Yeshua IS God and I'm very close to believing Yeshua is just a man, but it seems blasphemous to say. Even every unitarian or non-trin person I've ever spoken with on this board believes that Yeshua is somehow divine, though the reasoning is not logical to me.

And yet, the Jews, from whom Yeshua came, believe and have always believed (I assume from these posts) that the Messiah would not be divine. So why is it so blasphemous and strange a concept that I would think that?I was under the impression that the Jews do not accept a "virgin birth" of their Messiah, regardless of whether that gives him both a human and divine nature or not. Thoughts?

[ChavaK]

Again, this concept fascinates me. I hesitate to say that I believe Yeshua is just a man because it's such a taboo thing to say in the Christian world.
Apparently I can't be Christian and believe Yeshua is not divine.
Although, interestingly enough, I have met Christians who do not
believe in the divinity of Jesus or in the trinity.


I have stated many, many times that my belief is that we have God and His son Yeshua, the Messiah. I do not believe that Yeshua IS God
So, if you believe Jesus is G-d's son, why would that make him different
from anybody else? Are not we all G-d's children? Why would calling him
"son" be different from saying LLoJ is His "son"?:confused: Why not simply refer
to Jesus as the messiah, and omit the "son" part?

and I'm very close to believing Yeshua is just a man, but it seems blasphemous to say.
I can understand your discomfort; it is difficult to change the beliefs
we were raised with. If, chas v'shalom, I decided Jesus was the messiah
and divine, I would have a very tough time coming to terms with it.

[ChavaK]

I was under the impression that the Jews do not accept a "virgin birth" of their Messiah

No, we do not accept the virgin birth of your messiah.
Our messiah will be born the way the rest of us are ;)

[Kris10leigh]

Although, interestingly enough, I have met Christians who do not
believe in the divinity of Jesus or in the trinity. :cool: People think I'm nuts.



So, if you believe Jesus is G-d's son, why would that make him different
from anybody else? Are not we all G-d's children? Why would calling him
"son" be different from saying LLoJ is His "son"?:confused: Why not simply refer
to Jesus as the messiah, and omit the "son" part?

My brain hurts. ^_^ You've slapped with a concept I can not answer.

chas v'shalom
Can I translate this "Knock on wood"? ^_^

[Talmidah]

Can I translate this "Knock on wood"? ^_^It would be more accurate like "Heaven forbid!"

[ChavaK]

:cool: People think I'm nuts.

Ah, those people are crazy. Ignore 'em.



My brain hurts. ^_^ You've slapped it with a concept I can not answer.
Sorry, I did not mean to cause you brain pain :)


Can I translate this "Knock on wood"? ^_^
More along the line of "G-d forbid"

[ShirChadash]

and made the way the rest of us are, too ;)

No, we do not accept the virgin birth of your messiah.
Our messiah will be born the way the rest of us are ;)
[/size]

[LittleLambofJesus]

No, we do not accept the virgin birth of your messiah.
Our messiah will be born the way the rest of us are ;)
[/size]Ahhh ChavaK. Ya just had to emphasize that didn't ya :D

[ChavaK]

Ahhh ChavaK. Ya just had to emphasize that didn't ya :D

Oh course! You should know by now I don't let you get away
with anything, LOL! :P

[GerTzedek]

Kris:

You might consider reading When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome by Richard E. Rubenstein. It is fascinating to read the formation of Trinitarian dogma through the lense of careful Jewish scholarship. Rubenstein became interested in the issue because anti-Semitism is so interlinked with the issue of the divinity of JC. I read this book while still devoutly Catholic, and I have to say there were times while reading it I forgot it was written by a Jew, he so truly does justice to the issues the church was going through.

I'll warn you in advance, though. The book, like most of the stuff I read, is a scholar's book. If you read it, read it because you want to understand the issue inside and out.

[Thornicus]

whereas practicing chr*Stians worship three deities (none of them G-d) instead of the G-d who stood at sinai and gave us the Torah. You can keep your polytheism thanks! Ok, so that is more in jest than anything else.

But seriously, we do not worship the same G-d. We worship deities at opposite ends of hte spectrum. Yes there is but one G-d, but He is not worshipped by all man.

Yochanan

I agree. You ignore the revelation of Christ in scripture (of His divinity, payment for our sins, etc.) and thus you worship a god different from that of Christians. Sincerely, I'm always pleased to meet a Jew who doesn't beat around the bush. It's best to lay out all the cards on the table. Now, if only my Christian brethren would follow suit. :sorry: We're too busy trying not to *offend* anyone.

[ChavaK]

I agree. You ignore the revelation of Christ in scripture (of His divinity, payment for our sins, etc.) and thus you worship a god different from that of Christians. Sincerely, I'm always pleased to meet a Jew who doesn't beat around the bush. It's best to lay out all the cards on the table. Now, if only my Christian brethren would follow suit. :sorry: We're too busy trying not to *offend* anyone.

Yes I agree...we do not worship the same G-d as Christians.
We worship the G-d of Israel, of the Torah.....I haven't quite
figured out what Christians are worshiping, LOL ;)

[Thornicus]

Yes I agree...we do not worship the same G-d as Christians.
We worship the G-d of Israel, of the Torah.....I haven't quite
figured out what Christians are worshiping, LOL ;)



He is the only God. He says so in Isaiah 44:6. ;)

What are your thoughts on Isaiah 53? I've never had the opportunity to ask a practicing Jew that question; I'd be very interested in hearing your viewpoint. :)

[GerTzedek]

Originally Posted by ChavaK http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47361340#post47361340)
Yes I agree...we do not worship the same G-d as Christians.
We worship the G-d of Israel, of the Torah.....I haven't quite
figured out what Christians are worshiping, LOL ;)


Sorry. This just flies in the face of my own experience. I think you need to make room for people just being downright confused.

[GerTzedek]

He is the only God. He says so in Isaiah 44:6. ;)

What are your thoughts on Isaiah 53? I've never had the opportunity to ask a practicing Jew that question; I'd be very interested in hearing your viewpoint. :)


Isaiah 53: The suffering servant is Israel. If you read all of the preceding chapters you would realize this. I posted the verses in the thread "What do Orthodox Jews believe." You can look them up if you wish.

[Kris10leigh]

Kris:

You might consider reading When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome by Richard E. Rubenstein. It is fascinating to read the formation of Trinitarian dogma through the lense of careful Jewish scholarship. Rubenstein became interested in the issue because anti-Semitism is so interlinked with the issue of the divinity of JC. I read this book while still devoutly Catholic, and I have to say there were times while reading it I forgot it was written by a Jew, he so truly does justice to the issues the church was going through.

I'll warn you in advance, though. The book, like most of the stuff I read, is a scholar's book. If you read it, read it because you want to understand the issue inside and out.
Maybe I will make a trip to the library tomorrow. Thanks very much for the suggestion! :wave:

[ShirChadash]

What are your thoughts on Isaiah 53? I've never had the opportunity to ask a practicing Jew that question; I'd be very interested in hearing your viewpoint. :)
http://outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Isaiah%2053%20Part%201.mp3

[Akathist]

http://christianforums.com/picture.php?pictureid=607&albumid=103&dl=1210213404&thumb=1 (http://christianforums.com/album.php?albumid=103&pictureid=607)

Mod Hat Post

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Flaming, baiting, trolling, or feeding trolls is not allowed. This also applies to groups. In other words, play nice, don't hurt others, nor call them names.



but also this one:


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[ShirChadash]

Thank you, Akathist.

[ChavaK]

http://christianforums.com/picture.php?pictureid=607&albumid=103&dl=1210213404&thumb=1 (http://christianforums.com/album.php?albumid=103&pictureid=607)

Mod Hat Post

This thread has had a clean up. (In fact, while cleaning it up more posts were made so the clean up has gone on an on.)

If a member posts something that you think might be a rule violation, please do not quote that part of their post.

Furthermore, remember this rule:





but also this one:





On that last one, communication is best started by alerting staff (which someone did in this case). Then, try to over look the flame until staff can address it.



If your post is missing or edited it is because of a thread clean up. Staff are still discussing the situation.


:thumbsup: Thanks for the good advice! :wave:

[Der Alter]

You apparently don't know our little group very well. You will seldom find a bunch of Jews as knowledgable on Chrstianity as this one, mostly because this group spent time in the church, many raised in it, some even scholars from Bible Colleges and Seminaries.

Or at least, what would be considered scholars in the Chrstian world. Moving into Jewish community where scholarship is truly valued is quite a culture shock. In the Christian world, being educated meant being ignored and resented by others and often in a state of irritation with their simplistic approaches. Now in Jewish community I find myself at the other end of the spectrum, in the presence of those who have spent their lives in deep study of Scrupture and it is I who am uneducated.

Boasting of one's scholarship even in this backhanded way does not address the several false assumptions/presuppositions I enumerated. Rather than make allusions to what you know, please provide some support for the assertions. And just for grins do you know that the only documented Trinity outside Christianity was in Judaism, a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? My source is the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia.

[GerTzedek]

It's not a boast, merely a correction of your put-down.

[Der Alter]

It's not a boast, merely a correction of your put-down.

And you still have not addressed my objections to the post I responded to. Five unsupported assumptions/presuppositions.

whereas practicing chr*Stians worship three deities (none of them G-d) [1.] instead of the G-d who stood at sinai and gave us the Torah.[2.] You can keep your polytheism thanks![3.] Ok, so that is more in jest than anything else.

But seriously, we do not worship the same G-d.[4.] We worship deities at opposite ends of hte spectrum.[5.] Yes there is but one G-d, but He is not worshipped by all man.

Yochanan

[Der Alter]

Isaiah 53: The suffering servant is Israel. If you read all of the preceding chapters you would realize this. I posted the verses in the thread "What do Orthodox Jews believe." You can look them up if you wish.

I did, look them up. Wonder why highly respected scholars like Rambam changed the interpretation?
Is. lii. 3 is Messianically applied in the Talmud (Sanh. 97 b), while the last clause of verse 2 is one of the passages quoted in the Midrash on Lamentations (see Is. xi. 12).

The well-known Evangelic declaration in Is. lii. 7 is thus commented upon in Yalkut (vol. ii. p. 53 c): In the hour when the Holy One, blessed be His Name, redeems Israel, three days before Messiah comes Elijah, and stands upon the mountains of Israel, and weeps and mourns for them, and says to them: Behold the land of Israel, how long shall you stand in a dry and desolate land? And his voice is heard from the world's end to the world's end, and after that it is said to them: Peace has come to the world, peace has come to the world, as it is said: How beautiful upon the mountains, &c. And when the wicked hear it, they rejoice, and they say one to the other: Peace has come to us. On the second day he shall stand upon the mountains of Israel, and shall say: Good has come to the world, good has come to the world, as it is written: That bringeth good tidings of good. On the third day he shall come and stand upon the mountains of Israel, and say: Salvation has come to the world, salvation has come to the world, as it is written: That publisheth salvation.

Similarly, this passage is quoted in Yalkut on Ps. cxxi. 1. See also our remarks on Cant. ii. 13.

Verse 8 is one of the passages referred to in the Midrash on Lamentations quoted above, and frequently in other places as Messianic.

Verse 12 is Messianically applied in Shemoth R. 15 and 19.

Verse 13 is applied in the Targum expressly to the Messiah. On the words 'He shall be exalted and extolled' we read in Yalkut ii. (Par. 338, p. 53 c, lines 7 &c. from the bottom): He shall be higher than Abraham, to whom applies Gen. xiv. 22; higher than Moses, of whom Num. xi. 12 is predicated; higher than the ministering angels, of whom Ezek. i. 18 is said. But to Him there applies this in Zech. iv. 7: 'Who art thou, O great mountain?' 'And He was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities, and the chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes we are healed.' R. Huma says, in the name of R. Acha: All sufferings are divided into three parts; one part goes to David and the Patriarchs, another to the generation of the rebellion (rebellious Israel), and the third to the King Messiah, as it is written (Ps. ii. 7), 'Yet have I set My King upon My holy hill of Zion.' Then follows a curious quotation from the Midrash on Samuel, in which the Messiah indicates that His dwelling is on Mount Zion, and that guilt is connected with the destruction of its walls.

In regard to Is. liii. we remember, that the Messianic name of 'Leprous' (Sanh. 98 b) is expressly based upon it. Is. liii. 10 is applied in the Targum on the passage to the Kingdom of the Messiah.

Verse 5 is Messianically interpreted in the Midrash on Samuel (ed. Lemberg, p. 45 a, last line), where it is said that all sufferings are divided into three parts, one of which the Messiah bore - a remark which is brought into connection with Ruth ii. 14. (See our comments on that passage.)

The Life And Times Of Jesus The Messiah Alfred Edersheim 1883
Appendix 9 List Of Old Testament Passages Messianically Applied In Ancient Rabbinic Writings (Book II. ch. 5.)

[GerTzedek]

And you still have not addressed my objections to the post I responded to. Five unsupported assumptions/presuppositions.

Actually your five objections were more or less the same couple objections repeated over and over.

You will find there are things we are unanimous on, and other times we will slice the apple differently. I think I made it clear in an earlier post that I do believe Chrstians worship the same G-d. Trinitarianism is a bizarre form of monotheism; it is not polytheism. In my view, it is definitely a mistake for anyone, including gentiles, to worship a man as G-d. Is it a sin? At this time I'm going to refrain from that judgment and leave it to G-d, but I will say that G-d grants a lot of slack for confusion and ignorance. Because Chrstians actually believe JC to be the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, it's simply not the same thing as being willfully disobedient.

I am less concerned with what people believe about JC than what they do with their lives. There are those who walk the walk, living humble lives doing justice and loving mercy, those willing to sacrifice to be obedient, and if their reasons are confused, they are willing to die to defend G-d's people and Israel. So, there is what people say, and there is what people do. I may argue with what they say, but I CARE about what they DO.

[Kris10leigh]

Well said, GerTzedek! :thumbsup:

[Der Alter]

Actually your five objections were more or less the same couple objections repeated over and over.[ . . . ]

If that is a problem then you should take it up with the person whom I was quoting. The rest of your post, we'll see how you address this in the future.

[Torah613]

I agree. You ignore the revelation of Christ in scripture (of His divinity, payment for our sins, etc.) and thus you worship a god different from that of Christians. Sincerely, I'm always pleased to meet a Jew who doesn't beat around the bush. It's best to lay out all the cards on the table. Now, if only my Christian brethren would follow suit. :sorry: We're too busy trying not to *offend* anyone.

Of course reading the Tanakh in the original, there doesn't seem to be anything pointing to jsus.

There is a difference between being honest and being offensive.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

And you still have not addressed my objections to the post I responded to. Five unsupported assumptions/presuppositions.

they are not assumptions/pressupositions. You simply numbered the sentences in my post. So please what are my alleged assumptions?

For the record that post was based on my understanding of the chr*stian concept of the divine from my time as a RC seminarian.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Actually your five objections were more or less the same couple objections repeated over and over.

I am less concerned with what people believe about JC than what they do with their lives. There are those who walk the walk, living humble lives doing justice and loving mercy, those willing to sacrifice to be obedient, and if their reasons are confused, they are willing to die to defend G-d's people and Israel. So, there is what people say, and there is what people do. I may argue with what they say, but I CARE about what they DO.

Very well said!

Yochanan

[LittleLambofJesus]

I agree. You ignore the revelation of Christ in scripture (of His divinity, payment for our sins, etc.) and thus you worship a god different from that of Christians. Sincerely, I'm always pleased to meet a Jew who doesn't beat around the bush. It's best to lay out all the cards on the table. Now, if only my Christian brethren would follow suit. :sorry: We're too busy trying not to *offend* anyone.The "Revelation of Christ" in the NT/NC is not the easiest book to understand, even among Christians.

That book concerns mainly the Nations of "israel/judah" and is a highly Jewish/Hebrew symbolic book and from I have read and studied on it, there is not one book of the OT/OC it doesn not touch. What a fascinating BOOK!!!! :)

Luke 2:32 A Light into the from-covering/apo-kaluyin <602> of nations, and glory of people of You, Israel.'

Revelation 1:1 A-from-covering/apo-kaluyiV<602> Yeshuwa` Mashiyach, which gives to Him, YHWH, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which is binding to be becoming in swiftness.

2 Corin 3:14 But was hardened the minds of them. For until the today day, the same covering/kalumma <2571> upon the reading of the Old Covenant is remaining, no being up-covered. That In Christ it is being-taken-away.

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source! That’s, IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

[ShirChadash]

Yes I agree...we do not worship the same G-d as Christians.
We worship the G-d of Israel, of the Torah.....Yes, indeedy -- The G-d of Ysra'El, Yitzaak and Yaacov.

So ditto, except for this:
I haven't quite
figured out what Christians are worshiping, LOL ;)I know fully well and understand.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I haven't quite
figured out what Christians are worshiping, LOL ;)
I don't blame ya. :) Isn't it ironic that our Salvation has to come thru your Messiah?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 4:22 Ye are worshipping which not ye know. We are worshipping which we have known, that the Salvation out of-the Judeans is.

Reve 22:8 And I, John, the one hearing and beholding these things, and when I hear and behold, I fall to worship before the feet of the messenger, the one showing to me these things.9 And he is saying to me: "Be you seeing! no, fellow bondservent of thee I am and of the brothers of thee, the prophets, and of the ones keeping the Words of the scrollet, this. To the GOD/YHWH worship thou!

[ChavaK]

Yes, indeedy -- The G-d of Ysra'El, Yitzaak and Yaacov.

So ditto, except for this:
I know fully well and understand.

So maybe you can explain it to me? :D

[ChavaK]

Isn't it ironic that our Salvation has to come thru your Messiah?


I wouldn't call it ironic, I would call it mistaken since
our messiah hasn't come yet ;)

[LittleLambofJesus]

I wouldn't call it ironic, I would call it mistaken since
our messiah hasn't come yet ;)Ooops. I forgetz about that. :bow:

[ChavaK]

http://christianforums.com/TPaXWeDY5UnM:http://www.gadgets.co.uk/mas_assets/full/USBMEMORYPILL.jpgOoops. I forgetz about that. :bow:

Don't worry, I will keep reminding you :D



http://christianforums.com/TPaXWeDY5UnM:http://www.gadgets.co.uk/mas_assets/full/USBMEMORYPILL.jpg

[ShirChadash]

^_^ So maybe you can explain it to me? :D

[ShirChadash]

I don't blame ya. :) Isn't it ironic that our Salvation has to come thru your Messiah? not really -- it's not hard to borrow theology from a pre-existing religion. And everyone knows that the *JEWISH* Moshiach will usher in peace and be worshiped by all when he actually comes, and does what he must.

[LittleLambofJesus]

not really -- it's not hard to borrow theology from a pre-existing religion. And everyone knows that the *JEWISH* Moshiach will usher in peace and be worshiped by all when he actually comes, and does what he must.Yeah, that is always what I thought except Jesus appears to have implied differently in Matt 10 but I believe He was quoting from Ezekiel 38:21. Thoughts?

Ezekiel 37:26 And I cut/make to them a Covenant of Peace, a Covenant of an-age/forever it shall become with them.......

Matthew 10:34 "No thou should be inferring that I came to be casting Peace upon the land. Not I came to be casting Peace, but a Sword [Ezekiel 38:21]

Ezekiel 38:21 "And I call on him, to all of mountains of Me, a Sword, declaration of my Lord YHWH".
"Sword of man in brother of him shall become".

[Der Alter]

they are not assumptions/pressupositions. You simply numbered the sentences in my post. So please what are my alleged assumptions?

For the record that post was based on my understanding of the chr*stian concept of the divine from my time as a RC seminarian.

Yochanan

You have just described assumptions/presuppositions. I have no way to measure what you may or may not have heard or read when you were allegedly in a RC seminary. I'm willing to consider any credible, verifiable, historical evidence you care to post to back up the unsupported assertions? Failure to provide such evidence will merely confirm my opinion.

[kivi]

Boasting of one's scholarship even in this backhanded way does not address the several false assumptions/presuppositions I enumerated. Rather than make allusions to what you know, please provide some support for the assertions. And just for grins do you know that the only documented Trinity outside Christianity was in Judaism, a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? My source is the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia.

kivi says: I can find nothing on a 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia. Care to give the standard: publisher, copyright and city of publication so that I can track it down?:idea: If it is the same sorce as the 1917 Jewish Old Testament, it is most likely a fraud and I am sorry you have taken it as accurate or viable:sorry:.

[kivi]

I did, look them up. Wonder why highly respected scholars like Rambam changed the interpretation?
Is. lii. 3 is Messianically applied in the Talmud (Sanh. 97 b), while the last clause of verse 2 is one of the passages quoted in the Midrash on Lamentations (see Is. xi. 12).


The well-known Evangelic declaration in Is. lii. 7 is thus commented upon in Yalkut (vol. ii. p. 53 c): In the hour when the Holy One, blessed be His Name, redeems Israel, three days before Messiah comes Elijah, and stands upon the mountains of Israel, and weeps and mourns for them, and says to them: Behold the land of Israel, how long shall you stand in a dry and desolate land? And his voice is heard from the world's end to the world's end, and after that it is said to them: Peace has come to the world, peace has come to the world, as it is said: How beautiful upon the mountains, &c. And when the wicked hear it, they rejoice, and they say one to the other: Peace has come to us. On the second day he shall stand upon the mountains of Israel, and shall say: Good has come to the world, good has come to the world, as it is written: That bringeth good tidings of good. On the third day he shall come and stand upon the mountains of Israel, and say: Salvation has come to the world, salvation has come to the world, as it is written: That publisheth salvation.

Similarly, this passage is quoted in Yalkut on Ps. cxxi. 1. See also our remarks on Cant. ii. 13.

Verse 8 is one of the passages referred to in the Midrash on Lamentations quoted above, and frequently in other places as Messianic.

Verse 12 is Messianically applied in Shemoth R. 15 and 19.

Verse 13 is applied in the Targum expressly to the Messiah. On the words 'He shall be exalted and extolled' we read in Yalkut ii. (Par. 338, p. 53 c, lines 7 &c. from the bottom): He shall be higher than Abraham, to whom applies Gen. xiv. 22; higher than Moses, of whom Num. xi. 12 is predicated; higher than the ministering angels, of whom Ezek. i. 18 is said. But to Him there applies this in Zech. iv. 7: 'Who art thou, O great mountain?' 'And He was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities, and the chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes we are healed.' R. Huma says, in the name of R. Acha: All sufferings are divided into three parts; one part goes to David and the Patriarchs, another to the generation of the rebellion (rebellious Israel), and the third to the King Messiah, as it is written (Ps. ii. 7), 'Yet have I set My King upon My holy hill of Zion.' Then follows a curious quotation from the Midrash on Samuel, in which the Messiah indicates that His dwelling is on Mount Zion, and that guilt is connected with the destruction of its walls.

In regard to Is. liii. we remember, that the Messianic name of 'Leprous' (Sanh. 98 b) is expressly based upon it. Is. liii. 10 is applied in the Targum on the passage to the Kingdom of the Messiah.

Verse 5 is Messianically interpreted in the Midrash on Samuel (ed. Lemberg, p. 45 a, last line), where it is said that all sufferings are divided into three parts, one of which the Messiah bore - a remark which is brought into connection with Ruth ii. 14. (See our comments on that passage.)

The Life And Times Of Jesus The Messiah Alfred Edersheim 1883
Appendix 9 List Of Old Testament Passages Messianically Applied In Ancient Rabbinic Writings (Book II. ch. 5.)


kivi says: Messianic does not mean Jesus Christ. Messianic does not mean a Trinity or a forever Hell or the Devil or a semi divine demi god born of the sexual congress of a god and a human woman. Messinic is a profromance based job. If the person claiming to be the Messiah does not meet the basic rerquirements, they are not the Messiah.

Look at the actual prophecies:He will be of the House of David (Ezekiel 37:24). He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel(Isaiah 11:12).He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27).He will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3).He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d'scommandments (Ezekiel 37:24).He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serveone G-d (Isaiah 66:23).Therefore, all the Jews, living in Israel, and observant (even the former Xians willreturn to Judaism); a new Temple, world-wide peace, no wars, no scuffles,and all the people, all 6+ billion of them, former Muslims, Xians,Buddhists, atheists, etc., will finally believe in HaShem and serve onlyHim. When all this becomes true, will it not be obvious to the world?Now, you want all these prophecies put together in one place? Look atEzekiel 37:24-28:"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have oneshepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, anddo them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov myservant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, theyand their children, and their children's children forever; and my servantDavid shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant ofpeace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I willgive them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midstof them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will betheir G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I amthe L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst ofthem forevermore."All the people of the world will know Who is God, and will serve Him, andthey will know without a doubt who His people are and who the messiah is. Unless these 5 reuqirements are met, the person is not Moshiach.

[kivi]

He is the only God. He says so in Isaiah 44:6. ;)

What are your thoughts on Isaiah 53? I've never had the opportunity to ask a practicing Jew that question; I'd be very interested in hearing your viewpoint. :)

kivi says: We agree there is only ONE G-d. And we believe that He is the ONLY G-d. The problem that Judaism has with Christainity is there are three gods [maybe even 4], the triune thingee. One of which is part god and part human, in some form or another. Finally, when confronted with this situation and asked to explain it, all Christians eventually throw their hands up in the air and say: "It a mystery and not explainable." And, when Christianity adds the Devil to the mix, the difficulties explode in number. To Judaism, all of those points seriously interfers with the ONE and ONLY thingee aspect of G-d. We have no variation on the multiple god thingee, we have a one and only god, we have no semi divine thingee, the nature of G-d is not a mystery and we have no Devil. Really, its all very clean and simple. The way we deal with the confusion of Chiristain theology is to basically ignore it unless it is shoved in our faces. There are no seperate temples or churches to the various aspects of the Christian gods, no seperate holidays or priesthoods, hardly any mythology explaining their position or history or special powers with the exception of the Devil. IN effect, except with the cross and some other minor symbols, all three gods in the Christian Trinity collapse into one god, of course, with the exception of the Devil... We can live with that. However, the second the Christians start with the Missionary thingee, that we can not live with. SO WE GET INTO THESE LONG DISCUSSIONS. But, really, amoung ourselves, we hardly even notice Christian theology. It seems a little over-the-top for something that is so simple to us. But beyound that, just don't do it in my front yard.

[kivi]

The Life And Times Of Jesus The Messiah Alfred Edersheim 1883
Appendix 9 List Of Old Testament Passages Messianically Applied In Ancient Rabbinic Writings (Book II. ch. 5.)


According to Wiki, what we have here with Alfred Edersheim is a self loathing Jew who suffered from Stockholm syndrome.

[Kris10leigh]

Look at the actual prophecies:He will be of the House of David (Ezekiel 37:24). He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel(Isaiah 11:12).He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27).He will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3).He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d'scommandments (Ezekiel 37:24).He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serveone G-d (Isaiah 66:23).Therefore, all the Jews, living in Israel, and observant (even the former Xians willreturn to Judaism); a new Temple, world-wide peace, no wars, no scuffles,and all the people, all 6+ billion of them, former Muslims, Xians,Buddhists, atheists, etc., will finally believe in HaShem and serve onlyHim. When all this becomes true, will it not be obvious to the world?Now, you want all these prophecies put together in one place? Look atEzekiel 37:24-28:"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have oneshepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, anddo them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov myservant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, theyand their children, and their children's children forever; and my servantDavid shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant ofpeace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I willgive them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midstof them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will betheir G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I amthe L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst ofthem forevermore."All the people of the world will know Who is God, and will serve Him, andthey will know without a doubt who His people are and who the messiah is. Unless these 5 reuqirements are met, the person is not Moshiach.
Kivi, bless you! ^_^ THIS is what I have been looking for. :clap:

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Thornicus http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47361394#post47361394)
He is the only God. He says so in Isaiah 44:6. ;)

What are your thoughts on Isaiah 53? I've never had the opportunity to ask a practicing Jew that question; I'd be very interested in hearing your viewpoint. :)Hi. There was a discussion on the NCR board on that. It is interesting that Isaiah 1:1 starts off with "a Vision" and that makes me wonder how much of Isaiah is a Vision and how much is not.

"Vision" is used 35 times in the OT, mostly in Ezekiel and Daniel. Perhaps we could start a thread on Isaiah 53 and 54. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Y@sha`yah 1:1 A vision of Y@sha`yah, son-of 'Amowts, which he saw/perceived on Y@huwdah and Y@ruwshalaim in days of `Uzziyah, Yowtham, 'Achaz, Y@chizqiyah, Kings of Y@huwdah.
2 Hear 'O Heavens! and give ear 'O Land! That YHWH, He speaks. Sons I brought up, and I magnified, and they, they transgress in Me.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5858522&page=13
Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion

[Der Alter]

According to Wiki, what we have here with Alfred Edersheim is a self loathing Jew who suffered from Stockholm syndrome.

According to Wiki? You have got to be kidding! That is the internet equivalent of a public restroom wall. Anybody can write anything and anybody can change anything. Beside, this is a total falsehood. The Wiki article says no such thing.

Can you prove Edersheim wrong from the Talmud? It is available online. Nah! Didn't think so. How about a little truth in advertising here?

[Der Alter]

kivi says: Messianic does not mean Jesus Christ. Messianic does not mean a Trinity or a forever Hell or the Devil or a semi divine demi god born of the sexual congress of a god and a human woman. Messinic is a profromance based job. If the person claiming to be the Messiah does not meet the basic rerquirements, they are not the Messiah.).

Total garbage misrepresentation of the Trinity. Only in recent times has Judaism taught there is no eternal Hell. Through the beginning of the Christian era Judaism clearly taught an eternal hell. See Jewish Encyclopedia online.

Look at the actual prophecies:He will be of the House of David (Ezekiel 37:24). He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel(Isaiah 11:12).He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27).He will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3).
[ . . . ]

We don't have to read any further than Micah to see this list is false. See Micah 4:1, 4:3 occurs in the last days.
Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Total garbage misrepresentation of the Trinity. Only in recent times has Judaism taught there is no eternal Hell. Through the beginning of the Christian era Judaism clearly taught an eternal hell. See Jewish Encyclopedia online.
Hi. That would depend on ones view of this, what I view as, "Covenantal" parable in Luke 16. I disagree with a lot of Christ-ianity on their interpretation of it. Thoughts?

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the flame, this." [Flame used in Acts 7:30]

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having rest Day and Night

[Der Alter]

Hi. That would depend on ones view of this, what I view as, "Covenantal" parable in Luke 16. I disagree with a lot of Christianity on their interpretation of it. Thoughts?

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the flame, this." [Flame used in Acts 7:30]

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having rest Day and Night

These are the beliefs of the ancient Jews, these are the common views that Jesus and the disciples would have held.

Last Sunday I preached a sermon on Luke 16. All of the accepted parables of Jesus involved anonymous persons, "a certain woman,""a certain shepherd," etc. Jesus could without being dishonest use anyonmous events to illustrate Biblical truths. At some time in history a shepherd found a lost sheep and rejoiced.

In the story of the rich man, Jesus named two people, one of those was a specific, actual, historical person Abraham. Since Jesus did not say this was a parable, or that he was speaking figuratively, etc. if Abraham was not in a specific place, having a conversation with a rich man, saying the words that Jesus quoted, then Jesus was lying. Jesus does not lie!
Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a).A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G

[ChavaK]

According to Wiki, what we have here with Alfred Edersheim is a self loathing Jew who suffered from Stockholm syndrome.

Kivi, do you not trust the writings of a Jew who converted to
Christianity and became a Anglican minister and biblical scholar?

What is wrong with you??? :D
We should turn to him to learn about Judaism and Torah, LOL ^_^

[LittleLambofJesus]

Last Sunday I preached a sermon on Luke 16. All of the accepted parables of Jesus involved anonymous persons, "a certain woman,""a certain shepherd," etc. Jesus could without being dishonest use anyonmous events to illustrate Biblical truths. At some time in history a shepherd found a lost sheep and rejoiced.

In the story of the rich man, Jesus named two people, one of those was a specific, actual, historical person Abraham. Since Jesus did not say this was a parable, or that he was speaking figuratively, etc. if Abraham was not in a specific place, having a conversation with a rich man, saying the words that Jesus quoted, then Jesus was lying. Jesus does not lie!Again that is your view. I look at all parables leading to one thing, JESUS CHRIST. And again, I disagree with your view. :)

Luke 16:26 And on all of these, between Us [NC Faith/Life] and Ye [OC Law/Death] a great chasm hath been established, so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye not be able to, no yet thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>.

Hebrews 11:29 By Faith They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm

And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - "this parable"? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great tru