Do Jews believe this?

[jaihare]

Your forgetting that the Hebrews and Arabs used to speak the same language. Aramaic is relevant.
And I guess I should teach you physics, too. Since languages are obviously not your strong suit, please do not think that you're going to introduce me to anything new with regard to Semitic language.

I'm not a physicist, so I would never dream of trying to teach you anything about physics. You are not a linguist, so please do not try to teach me about linguistic history. I have a lot of experience with this topic.

Jason

[LittleLambofJesus]

You've been waiting for almost 2000 years, and you want to mock those whose Scriptures clearly say that it will be a LONG TIME before Messiah comes? Personally I don't think you've got a leg to stand on.

Jason
I haven't been waiting on Him to return as most Christians and the Muslims believe, as I and a lot of others believe JESUS fulfilled EVERTHING for the OC Israelites and Jews.

I am already in YOUR New Covenant/Heaven and land as they both occur at the same time. :)

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Jeremiah 31:33 That this the-Covenant/01285 b@riyth which I-shall-Cut/03772 karath with house-of Yisra'el after the-days, those, declares YHWH. I-give Law of Me in-within-them and-on heart-of-them I-shall-write-her. And-I-become to-them for-Elohiym, and-they they-shall-become to-Me for-people. [Hebrews 8:10/10:16]

Hebrew 8:10 That this the Covenant/diaqhkh <1242> which I shall be Covenanting/diaqhsomai <1303> (5695) to the House of Israel after the days, those, is saying Lord. Giving laws of Me into the minds of them and upon hearts of them I shall be engraving them. And I shall be to them into God and they shall be to Me into a People. [Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrew 10:16]

[jaihare]

I haven't been waiting on Him to return as most Christians and the Muslims believe, as I and a lot of others believe JESUS fulfilled EVERTHING for the OC Israelites and Jews.

I am already in YOUR New Covenant/Heaven and land as they both occur at the same time. :)
Seems to be the only solution.... Preterism. Since it didn't really happen and nothing really changed, it was obviously fulfilled "spiritually". Decent way out, but doesn't seem to honor at all what verses I gave to you. When were people "caught up in the clouds to meet the lord in the air"? When did Jesus' sign appear in the sky? You can spiritualize it all you want, but this is simply the last retreat of a failed system.

Jason

P.S. Some "new heavens and new earth", by the way. What happened to beating their swords into plowshares and learning war no more?? I'd say that the A-bomb is the opposite of such fancies.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Seems to be the only solution.... Preterism. Since it didn't really happen and nothing really changed, it was obviously fulfilled "spiritually". Decent way out, but doesn't seem to honor at all what verses I gave to you. When were people "caught up in the clouds to meet the lord in the air"? When did Jesus' sign appear in the sky? You can spiritualize it all you want, but this is simply the last retreat of a failed system.

JasonI don't believe YHWH failed either the OC Israelites or non-Israelites. I can read the Bible as all fulfilled and I am happy in that and being of the Faith of YHWH and His Christ. What can be better than that!~~ :)

Isaiah 43:19 "Behold! Doing a new thing; now she is sprouting; not ye are knowing her? Indeed I am placing in wilderness a Way, in desolation streams/rivers".

John 7:37 In yet the last day, the great, of the feast, stood the Jesus and cries-out, saying, "If-ever any-one may be thirsting/diya <1372> (5725), let him be coming toward Me and be drinking"; [Isaiah 43:19/Revelation 21:6] :preach:

Matthew 5:6 "Happy the ones-hungering and thirsting the righteousness, that they shall be being gorged/cortasqhsontai <5526> (5701) ".

Reve 21:6 And He said to me:" it-has-become.
I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the Water of the Life gratuitously". [John 7:37/Reve 22:17]

[jaihare]

I don't believe YHWH failed either the OC Israelites or non-Israelites. I can read the Bible as all fulfilled and I am happy in that and being of the Faith of YHWH and His Christ. What can be better than that!~~ :)
Just FYI, I don't read your weird translations. I read your personal words, hit "quote" and delete the rest. Don't worry about giving me quotes of strange languages. Whatever you're posting, it's neither Hebrew nor English, and it's completely unappealing. Just so you know.

I would never claim that HaShem failed anyone. This is not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying that the other system failed... the one that was added to what HaShem gave. Do not be confused with that.

HaShem has always been and will always be faithful to his promises.

Jason

[LittleLambofJesus]

Just FYI, I don't read your weird translations. I read your personal words, hit "quote" and delete the rest. Don't worry about giving me quotes of strange languages. Whatever you're posting, it's neither Hebrew nor English, and it's completely unappealing. Just so you know.

I would never claim that HaShem failed anyone. This is not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying that the other system failed... the one that was added to what HaShem gave. Do not be confused with that.

HaShem has always been and will always be faithful to his promises.

JasonYepperz. If I thought YHWH was a failure thru His Christ Jesus, I would turn Atheist. ;)

Zechariah 13:5 And he says 'Not a-prophet I, man tilling ground I, that adam he-caused-me-to-acquire from youths of me".
And he says to him: "what the smitings, these, between hands of thee"? And he says "which I was smitten House of lovers/0157 'ahab of me".

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in the Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all shall be being made alive.

[jaihare]

Along the way, you may have missed this, but I would really like your consideration of my P.S. question above:

---
Some "new heavens and new earth", by the way. What happened to beating their swords into plowshares and learning war no more?? I'd say that the A-bomb is the opposite of such fancies.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some "new heavens and new earth", by the way. What happened to beating their swords into plowshares and learning war no more?? I'd say that the A-bomb is the opposite of such fancies.
That is what followers of YHWH's Christ are supposed to do. Gotta bind up and take the sword out of the "strong man's" hand first.

Matthew 12:29 `Or how is able any-one to be entering into the House of the strong-one, and the instruments of him to snatch-away, if ever no first he should be binding the strong-one? And then his House he shall be snatching-away. [Mark 3:27/Reve 15:8]

Reve 15:8 And is being-filled-full/repleted the Sanctuary of Smoke out of the Glory of the GOD/YHWH, and out of the power of Him. And no one was able to be entering into the Sanctuary until should be being finished the seven blows/stripes of the seven messengers.

[jaihare]

That is what followers of YHWH's Christ are supposed to do. Gotta bind up and take the sword out of the "strong man's" hand first.

Matthew 12:29 `Or how is able any-one to be entering into the House of the strong-one, and the instruments of him to snatch-away, if ever no first he should be binding the strong-one? And then his House he shall be snatching-away. [Mark 3:27/Reve 15:8]

Reve 15:8 And is being-filled-full/repleted the Sanctuary of Smoke out of the Glory of the GOD/YHWH, and out of the power of Him. And no one was able to be entering into the Sanctuary until should be being finished the seven blows/stripes of the seven messengers.
So, you're saying that we're still waiting for these things to be fulfilled? Hmm.... I thought you were a preterist!

[LittleLambofJesus]

So, you're saying that we're still waiting for these things to be fulfilled? Hmm.... I thought you were a preterist!It is all fulfilled for me. I just preach the Good-News of Jesus and try to get people to live in Peace with each other.

Jews really need to study the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation as it does pertain to your 2 Nations of "Israel/Judah". :wave:

Gotta call it a night. G'night all........

Isaiah 28:15 That ye say, "We have cut a covenant with_death, and with-sh@'owl we made a seer, scourge/07752 showt overflowing that it passes, not it shall come on us, that we placed a lie refuge of us and in falsehood we are hidden/concealed.

Nahum 3:2 A sound of a Whip, and sound of a quaking wheel, and horse galloping, and chariot leaping. A horseman mounting. And blazing sword, and flashing spear, and many wounded and mass of corpses and there is no end to bodies.

[I]Reve 15:1 And I perceived another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous. Messengers, seven, having blows/stripes seven, the last, that in them is finished the fury of YHWH.

[jaihare]

It is all fulfilled for me. I just preach the Good-News of Jesus and try to get people to live in Peace with each other.

Jews really need to study the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation as it does pertain to your 2 Nations of "Israel/Judah". :wave:

Gotta call it a night. G'night all........

Isaiah 28:15 That ye say, "We have cut a covenant with_death, and with-sh@'owl we made a seer, scourge/07752 showt overflowing that it passes, not it shall come on us, that we placed a lie refuge of us and in falsehood we are hidden/concealed.

Nahum 3:2 A sound of a Whip, and sound of a quaking wheel, and horse galloping, and chariot leaping. A horseman mounting. And blazing sword, and flashing spear, and many wounded and mass of corpses and there is no end to bodies.

[I]Reve 15:1 And I perceived another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous. Messengers, seven, having blows/stripes seven, the last, that in them is finished the fury of YHWH.
I've read the book of the Revelation in Hebrew, Greek, English, and Spanish. A lot of good that did. Come to find out, I was wasting my time. The truth's in the beginning of the book... the Torah. Start over at the beginning. That's where the really good stuff's at!

Jason

[ContraMundum]

I grew up Jewish. I was taught that Christianity was one way "HaShem" used to reach the goyim according to some plan He has. I was told that Christianity was wrong, but that most Christians were good people and not many of the Gentiles were actually Christian anyway. It was good advice about that, but bad advice about Christian theology. Anyway, we live and learn, don't we?

If anyone wants to rise above the offerings on this forum and is interested in a decent article about what at least one educated Jewish Rabbi thinks of the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, I recommend this (http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/center/conferences/Bea_Centre_C-J_Relations_04-05/Laras.htm).

[jaihare]

I grew up Jewish. I was taught....
Where did you attend yeshiva, if I may ask? American mostly assimilated family? Rigid Orthodox upbringing? Day school? Jew camp? Hebrew school? Sunday school? Adult education? Did you have a bar mitzvah? What do you mean when you say that you "grew up Jewish"?

Just wondering how far this goes.

Thanks,
Jason

[ContraMundum]

So, you're saying that we're still waiting for these things to be fulfilled? Hmm.... I thought you were a preterist!

I'm stunned, but not really surprised, that you don't see what is the correct understanding of these texts...if we were talking Tanakh you'd put on your Midrashic glasses and interpret prophecy in that light...but when it comes to the "other" Jewish work known as the NT, you throw them in the bin and put on your English literature glasses instead, failing to see it as it is intended. Ironic.

Still- we were told that this would happen, so we will just pray instead. I don't blame you for your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but to informed, orthodox Christians, it looks rather like a person building strawmen.

Enjoy.

[jaihare]

The NT is about as Jewish as Freudian psychology and Marxist communism. Just because the founders were Jewish doesn't mean the outcome was.

[ContraMundum]

Where did you attend yeshiva, if I may ask? American mostly assimilated family? Rigid Orthodox upbringing? Day school? Jew camp? Hebrew school? Sunday school? Adult education? Did you have a bar mitzvah? What do you mean when you say that you "grew up Jewish"?

Just wondering how far this goes.

Thanks,
Jason

a) My first reaction is to say "none of your business, because I don't know (and therefore don't yet trust) you..."

BUT, just to appease the man....here it is, in order..

b) 1. Australia. 2. orthodox, sometimes rigid, sometimes not, modern with a touch of Hasid- some rellies are Hasidim 3. Yes to all the rest- but never got Sunday school- unfortunately.

[ContraMundum]

The NT is about as Jewish as Freudian psychology and Marxist communism. Just because the founders were Jewish doesn't mean the outcome was.


An interesting assertion. But that's all it is, to me.

[jaihare]

An interesting assertion. But that's all it is, to me.
Just as the assertion that it is Jewish is unsupported in my eyes. Freud was a Jew - but his psychology hardly sprung from the Talmud.

Jason

[ContraMundum]

Anyway, post #764 was all I really wanted to share. I think that article is well balanced and I was hoping to increase the informed input of this thread. I don't do the whole debate game any longer with people of other traditions. My religion forbids it, unless certain circumstances are met, and in this case, they are not. See you all! :wave:

[ContraMundum]

Freud was a Jew - but his psychology hardly sprung from the Talmud.

Thank God!
:D

[jaihare]

a) My first reaction is to say "none of your business, because I don't know (and therefore don't yet trust) you..."

BUT, just to appease the man....here it is, in order..

b) 1. Australia. 2. orthodox, sometimes rigid, sometimes not, modern with a touch of Hasid- some rellies are Hasidim 3. Yes to all the rest- but never got Sunday school- unfortunately.
תודה על התשובה שלך. אני מניח שהעברית שלך טובה מאוד עם כל הניסיון הזה! מתי התנצרת? אני ממש מעוניין לדעת מה גרם לך להפוך לנוצרי. :)

תודה רבה,
ג'ייסון

[LittleLambofJesus]

I've read the book of the Revelation in Hebrew, Greek, English, and Spanish. A lot of good that did. Come to find out, I was wasting my time. The truth's in the beginning of the book... the Torah. Start over at the beginning. That's where the really good stuff's at!

JasonI always do. But then for you and Judaism, it has no "ending" [except of course your Priesthood/Temple/Sanctuary] of which you are still without.

Btw, did you ever see any similarity between Revlation 18:9/19:3 in the NC and Ezra 3 in the OC?

Most Christians feel this is still future for ya'll but I read this as past. Notice some are "weeping/wailing" and many are "shouting in Joy". ;)

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her, 42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes. 43 That shall be arriving days upon thee,........

Reve 18:9 and shall be lamenting and shall be wailing over Her the kings of the land, the ones with her fornicating and indulging, whenever they may be observing the smoke of the fireing of Her

Reve 19:3 and a second time they have declared Allelouia and the smoke of Her is ascending into the ages of the ages.

Ezra 3:12 And many of the priests, and the Levites, and the Chiefs of the fathers, the elders, who had seen the first House--in this house being founded before their eyes--are weeping with a loud voice, and many with a Shout, in Joy, lifting up the voice; 13 and the people are not discerning the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people, for the people are shouting--a great shout--and the noise hath been heard unto a distance.

[ShirChadash]

תודה על התשובה שלך. אני מניח שהעברית שלך טובה מאוד עם כל הניסיון הזה! מתי התנצרת? אני ממש מעוניין לדעת מה גרם לך להפוך לנוצרי. :)

תודה רבה,
ג'ייסון
:thumbsup:

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by jaihare http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47707314#post47707314) I've read the book of the Revelation in Hebrew, Greek, English, and Spanish. A lot of good that did. Come to find out, I was wasting my time. The truth's in the beginning of the book... the Torah. Start over at the beginning. That's where the really good stuff's at!
Oh I forgot. They are also singing the "Song of Moses" in Revelation. Don't know why that would pertain to me, as I wasn't under Moses and neither am I today. :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 19:20 and the wild-beast was taken, and with him the false-prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were Cast--the two--to the Lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

Revelation 15:3 and They are singing the Song of-Moses, the bond-servant of the God, and the song of the Lamb-kin, saying, `Great and marvelous the works of Thee, Lord!, the God, the Almighty, just and true the ways of Thee, the king of the [*Ages/Saints] Nations

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea.
2 My might and melody is Yah, and He became mine salvation/y@shuw'ah.--This is my 'El and I will glorify Him, 'Elohiym of my father and I will set Him on high". '

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

[Der Alter]

The NT is about as Jewish as Freudian psychology and Marxist communism. Just because the founders were Jewish doesn't mean the outcome was.

We (גוים) are told we cannot understand the T'nakh unless we read it in the original languages. Have you read any of the Greek NT in the original Greek and its socio-historical context? If not,

שׁוא ידברו אישׁ את־רעהו שׂפת חלקות בלב ולב ידברו׃

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by jaihare http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47707358#post47707358) The NT is about as Jewish as Freudian psychology and Marxist communism. Just because the founders were Jewish doesn't mean the outcome was.
According to the "heathen" atheists, the whole Bible is considered by them that way. :D

Whenever they bring up the OC Hebrew Scriptures for us to explain, I just tell them to ask the Jews as it is their Scriptures also.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7253955
Why is christianity such a violent and gruesome religion?

http://www.awitness.org/bible.html

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html
False Prophecies of Daniel

The book of Daniel has become important to Christian theology because the gospel of Mark made constant reference to the book, calling Christ the son of man, and because Mark wrote an apocalypse borrowing the image of the Beast of Daniel's prophecy, which would appear again later in the Christian Apocalypse, the Book of Revelations. For this reason you often hear that Daniel predicted the rise of the Revived Roman empire..........

.....................As a final point I have to ask how, after those early churches embarrassed everyone by reading Daniel in an uncritical way and being gullible about the Bible, and prophecy in particular, you really have to wonder why any other modern church would want to do the same thing, repeat the same mistake, and embarrass themselves in the same way as those early churches did. It turns out that there are certain things you can learn by not taking the Bible literally all the time, and this lesson is certainly one of them. :)

[Qalevra]

Have you read any of the Greek NT in the original Greek and its socio-historical context? If not,

I've read Matthew, Acts, and Hebrews in the Greek. Were I so inclined, I would read the rest in Greek as well, but I see little need.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I've read Matthew, Acts, and Hebrews in the Greek. Were I so inclined, I would read the rest in Greek as well, but I see little need.How does the religion of Judaism interpret these rather interesting verses:

Isaiah 28:11 And with stammering/deriding lip and in-tongue, another He shall speak to the people, this.

Ezekiel 17:2 Son of 'adam, propound thou a riddle and speak thou a probverb/04912 mashal unto house of Israel:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 16:26 And on all of these, between Us [NC Faith/Life] and Ye [OC Law/Death] a great chasm hath been established, so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye not be able to, no yet thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>.

http://foru.ms/t4437955-lazarus-and-the-rich-man.html

It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, "He spoke this parable unto them," this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!

[Der Alter]

I've read Matthew, Acts, and Hebrews in the Greek. Were I so inclined, I would read the rest in Greek as well, but I see little need.

I don't think I was responding to you. But if you were to try to tell us what our NT means, as many who do not share our beliefs do, then my reply would apply to you.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't think I was responding to you. But if you were to try to tell us what our NT means, as many who do not share our beliefs do, then my reply would apply to you.I would say more Christ-ians scholars need to delve more into the Greek as it is actully comparable to the Hebrew in many ways.
Have ya ever looked at that Greek word for "lamb-kin" in Revelation.

1 Corinthians 7:23 Of a price/value ye are purchased/hgorasqhte <59>, no ye be becoming bond-slaves of men;

Reve 5:9 and they are singing a New Song, saying, `Worthy art thou to be taking the scroll, and to up-open the seals of it, that Thou wast slaughtered, and purchased/hgorasaV <59> to the God of us, in the blood of Thee, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7245442
The "lambkin" in Revelation and John 21 question

Y@sha`yah 53:7 He is hard pressed. And he one being humbled, and not he is opening his mouth.
As flockling to slaughter he is being fetched. And as ewe to faces of ones shearing of her she is mute. And not he is opening his mouth. [Acts 8:32]

[jaihare]

We (גוים) are told we cannot understand the T'nakh unless we read it in the original languages. Have you read any of the Greek NT in the original Greek and its socio-historical context? If not,

שׁוא ידברו אישׁ את־רעהו שׂפת חלקות בלב ולב ידברו׃
I used to do memory work from the NT. At one time I had large portions of Galatians and Ephesians memorized in Greek (with diacritics). I studied three years of Koine Greek in college. The second and third years were devoted to translation of the New Testament and inductive study, whereas the first year had been mostly deductive grammar.

As per "socio-historical context", I assume that I know this better than most Christians since they are unable to remove the text from their own culture and time. I understand well enough what was going on during the beginning of the Common Era, though no one knows all.

Jason

[jaihare]

I would say more Christ-ians scholars need to delve more into the Greek as it is actully comparable to the Hebrew in many ways.
Have ya ever looked at that Greek word for "lamb-kin" in Revelation.
Hebrew is not at all similar or comparable to Greek. They are completely unrelated.

And "lamb-kin" isn't a word in any language that I've studied.

Jason

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hebrew is not at all similar or comparable to Greek. They are completely unrelated.

And "lamb-kin" isn't a word in any language that I've studied.

JasonTo tell the truth, I really didn't know how to translate it as most use "Lamb" though it appears to mean more like "disowned one". Much like the greek word "gehenna", which I also leave untranslated. All Jewish/Hebrew symbolism to me.

Matt 23:33 Serpents fruit?/gennh-mata <1081> of vipers how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>

Luke 22:18 For I am saying unto ye--In nowise I may be drinking from the now, from the gennh-matoV <1081> of the vine, until of which the Kingdom of the God may be coming. [Matt 26:29, Mark 14:29]

Luke 5:1 It became yet, in the of the throng to be nearing to Him to be hearing the word of the God, and He was standing beside the lake Gennesaret/gennh-saret <1082>, [Matt 14:34, Mark 6:53]

\\http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7245442 (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7245442)
The "lambkin" in Revelation and John 21 question

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Hebrew is not at all similar or comparable to Greek. They are completely unrelated.

And "lamb-kin" isn't a word in any language that I've studied.

Jason Was it the Greeks who introduced vowels which were later introduced into Hebrew? I could be wrong, but I think there was more than one letter added to the Hebrew in relationship to the Greek.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Was it the Greeks who introduced vowels which were later introduced into Hebrew? I could be wrong, but I think there was more than one letter added to the Hebrew in relationship to the Greek.Is there any significance when double consonants are used in the greek?

I found this interesting while translating Luke 16. This greek word is eerily similar to the one used for "abyss" in Revelation. A letter "a" before a greek word usually signifies a negative I believe. This guy in Luke 16 intrigues me as we know he is signifying a type of "anti-christ". Thoughts:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47611284#post47611284

Luke 16:19 A Man, yet any, was rich and in-slipped/en-edidusketo <1737> (5710), purple and cambric/busson <1040>, making merry down to a day, splendidly.

Reve 11:7 `And whenever they should be finishing the witness of them, the wild-beast/n, the-one ascending out of the Abyss/a-bussou<12>f, shall be doing battle with them, and he shall be conquering them, and he shall be killing them,

Reve 18:12 Merchandise/cargoes of gold, and of silver, and of precious stone, and of pearl, and of cambric/bussinou <1039>,and of purple,

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Is there any significance when double consonants are used in the greek?

I found this interesting while translating Luke 16. This greek word is eerily similar to the one used for "abyss" in Revelation. A letter "a" before a greek word usually signifies a negative I believe. This guy in Luke 16 intrigues me as we know he is signifying a type of "anti-christ". Thoughts:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47611284#post47611284

Luke 16:19 A Man, yet any, was rich and in-slipped/en-edidusketo <1737> (5710), purple and cambric/busson <1040>, making merry down to a day, splendidly.

Reve 11:7 `And whenever they should be finishing the witness of them, the wild-beast/n, the-one ascending out of the Abyss/a-bussou<12>f, shall be doing battle with them, and he shall be conquering them, and he shall be killing them,

Reve 18:12 Merchandise/cargoes of gold, and of silver, and of precious stone, and of pearl, and of cambric/bussinou <1039>,and of purple, I have heard that the double consonants may imply a vowel sound, other than that it may be unimportant. In regards to luke 16, I think it has to do with honesty and tresure in heaven. Also, the Rabbi's in those days were not good men.

[jaihare]

This is nonsense. Consonants are consonants in Greek. They are not vowels. And they have no significance. They represent linguistic evolution, especially double gamma and double sigma/tau (depending on the dialect).

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

This is nonsense. Consonants are consonants in Greek. They are not vowels. And they have no significance. They represent linguistic evolution, especially double gamma and double sigma/tau (depending on the dialect).

Jason I do not disagree with you. I did not state it as a fact.

[ContraMundum]

Hi...Shabbat just ended here...

If you don't mind, I'd prefer English. Last time I tried to have a conversation in another language here I got reported. No, it wasn't Hebrew, it was a European language, but someone complained and the guy I was talking to and myself both got reported (but although nothing became of the report, we both decided to speak so that others could read- it looked less like showing off, anyway)

Your font is rather small, and I'm struggling to see it with my ageing eyes, but... :)

מתי התנצרת? אני ממש מעוניין לדעת מה גרם לך להפוך לנוצרי. :)

It was 1988. It's not your typical story, not what you would expect. It wasn't because of missionaries, it was very much God's hand, and His alone. No one argued with me, or tried to convince me of the Gospel story of Yeshua. Simply put, I had come across a New Testament, and I began to read it when I had run out of other books to read- I was in a very remote area, no library in sight. A series of miraculous things took place amongst myself and my friends at the same time, and eventually I, and two of my friends, all had a tremendously powerful experience of forgiveness from God on a Christian Holy Day and the days around it. We were completely different, never the same. The Tanakh finally made sense to me, and the New Testament showed me the ultimate depth of God's love for me.

Anyway, I don't want to spoil this thread, and I prefer my privacy and don't wish to speak of it on a public forum. I think it is best if I don't hang around here too much.

Thanks for asking. You sound like a nice fellow. Enjoy the forum and resist the temptation to get angry with others. :)

[jaihare]

Thanks for asking. You sound like a nice fellow. Enjoy the forum and resist the temptation to get angry with others. :)
תודה שאתה כ"כ נחמד איתי. לפעמים יש אנשים יותר גרועים במקומות כאלה. לגבי שפות, אני בטוח שמותר לדבר בעברית פה בגלל הטבע של האווירה. רוב הזמן אני מנסה להשתמש בשפת נשמותינו, כי דרך השפה הזאת יש לנו קשר להקב"ה. נכון?

בכבוד,
ג'ייסון

[LittleLambofJesus]

תודה שאתה כ"כ נחמד איתי. לפעמים יש אנשים יותר גרועים במקומות כאלה. לגבי שפות, אני בטוח שמותר לדבר בעברית פה בגלל הטבע של האווירה. רוב הזמן אני מנסה להשתמש בשפת נשמותינו, כי דרך השפה הזאת יש לנו קשר להקב"ה. נכון?

בכבוד,
ג'ייסון
Ahhh, I knew I should have learned Chinese ;)

[jaihare]

Ahhh, I knew I should have learned Chinese ;)
And you are on here all the time trying to teach people what the Hebrew of the Bible really says? :preach:

[LittleLambofJesus]

And you are on here all the time trying to teach people what the Hebrew of the Bible really says? :preach::P

Gene 1:1 In-beginning/בְּרֵאשִׁית created/בָּרָא 'Elohiym/אֱלֹהִים אֵת the-Heavens/הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת the-Land/הָאָרֶץ.

א בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת
הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

[jaihare]

:P

Gene 1:1 In-beginning/בְּרֵאשִׁית created/בָּרָא 'Elohiym/אֱלֹהִיםאֵתthe-Heavens/הַשָּׁמַיִםוְאֵת the-Land/הָאָרֶץ.

א בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת
הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

Some of us can produce that from memory.... and a lot more. No silly programs, no looking at the words as if they were Chinese. For some of us, the Bible actually MAKES SENSE in its original language, especially when the translations given to the masses are not maligned, as in the site you keep copying from (which is little more than a confused mess).

Jason

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some of us can produce that from memory.... and a lot more. No silly programs, no looking at the words as if they were Chinese. For some of us, the Bible actually MAKES SENSE in its original language, especially when the translations given to the masses are not maligned, as in the site you keep copying from (which is little more than a confused mess).

JasonTo each their own :)

Zechariah 13:5 And he says 'Not a-prophet I, man tilling ground I, that adam he-caused-me-to-acquire from youths of me".
And he says to him: "what the smitings, these, between hands of thee"? And he says "which I was smitten House of lovers/0157 'ahab of me".

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in the Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all shall be being made alive.

[jaihare]

Zechariah 13:5 And he says 'Not a-prophet I, man tilling ground I, that adam he-caused-me-to-acquire from youths of me".
And he says to him: "what the smitings, these, between hands of thee"? And he says "which I was smitten House of lovers/0157 'ahab of me".

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in the Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all shall be being made alive.
Awww.... acquire from my young people, my "youths", eh? What a terrible translation.... I don't know where you got this garbage, but it isn't the Word of God.

Jason

[LittleLambofJesus]

Awww.... acquire from my young people, my "youths", eh? What a terrible translation.... I don't know where you got this garbage, but it isn't the Word of God.

JasonWell, the Jews have their Word of God, the Muslims have their Word of Allah, and I have my Word of YHWH and we are all happy are we not? :thumbsup:

Matthew 21:21 Answering the Jesus said to them, "Verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing, but even-ever to the mountain, this, ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Hebrew 12:18 For ye came not near to the mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 and a sound of a trumpet, and a voice of sayings, which those having heard did entreat that a word might not be added to them,

Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger did sound, and as it were a great Mountain [OC?]with fire burning was cast into the Sea :preach:

[jaihare]

Yeah, I guess it's best that everyone does what is best in their own eyes rather than what is written in clear language in the pages of the Torah. It's better to create confused translations so as to muddy the waters of spirituality and allow for all kinds of distortion and compromise. Sounds like the right path, if you ask me. [/sarcasm]

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yeah, I guess it's best that everyone does what is best in their own eyes rather than what is written in clear language in the pages of the Torah. It's better to create confused translations so as to muddy the waters of spirituality and allow for all kinds of distortion and compromise. Sounds like the right path, if you ask me. [/sarcasm]Ok thanks. I am not under the Torah of Moses btw, so you and I will differ of course. Time to take by Barbecue Pork Ribs off the grill now. Shalom. :groupray:

Genesis 9:33 Every of moving-thing which he life, to ye he is becoming for food, as greens herbage I give to ye all.

Romans 14:14 I have known and am persuaded in Lord Jesus that nothing contaminating thru himself, except to the one accounting any being-unclean to be, to that one being-unclean.

[Qalevra]

I don't think I was responding to you. But if you were to try to tell us what our NT means, as many who do not share our beliefs do, then my reply would apply to you.

I feel I have a good grasp on the basic ideas of Christianity, and have my conclusions as to what the NT means. It starts off with a narrative of the life of Jesus, defines him as the son of god, as messiah, and recounts his death and resurrection, and ends with a promise that he will return and to spread the message of Christianity. The Acts are stories that relate how Christianity was spread chiefly throughout Asia Minor and Greece. There are the letters that Paul wrote which expand on the meaning of Jesus' death as a "final atonement" for sin, which is described as causing a spiritual death. He states that all people are sinners, cut off from god, and in need of the saving grace that Jesus provides. He provides guidance for the fledgling churches in Asia Minor and Greece, as well as exhortations not to be "bound by the law" (chiefly in his letter to the Galatians). The NT ends with the revelation to John, in which the final days of earth and Jesus' return are prophesied.

That's my understanding of what it says. How far off am I? With the exception of the aforementioned books, I skimmed through the NT, so I can't answer the ins and outs of Christian theology contained therein.

I would never tell a Christian what they believe or what their scriptures mean, and generally, I ask the same courtesy in return.

*The parentheses are my emphasis, not a direct quote from the NT.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I feel I have a good grasp on the basic ideas of Christianity, and have my conclusions as to what the NT means. It starts off with a narrative of the life of Jesus, defines him as the son of god, as messiah, and recounts his death and resurrection, and ends with a promise that he will return and to spread the message of Christianity. The Acts are stories that relate how Christianity was spread chiefly throughout Asia Minor and Greece. There are the letters that Paul wrote which expand on the meaning of Jesus' death as a "final atonement" for sin, which is described as causing a spiritual death. He states that all people are sinners, cut off from god, and in need of the saving grace that Jesus provides. He provides guidance for the fledgling churches in Asia Minor and Greece, as well as exhortations not to be "bound by the law" (chiefly in his letter to the Galatians). The NT ends with the revelation to John, in which the final days of earth and Jesus' return are prophesied.

That's my understanding of what it says. How far off am I? With the exception of the aforementioned books, I skimmed through the NT, so I can't answer the ins and outs of Christian theology contained therein.

I would never tell a Christian what they believe or what their scriptures mean, and generally, I ask the same courtesy in return.

*The parentheses are my emphasis, not a direct quote from the NT. In regards to the law, we are still to keep the commandments of God. If The bible the person is reading is translated correctly it will say repeatedly to keep the commandments.

[LittleLambofJesus]

In regards to the law, we are still to keep the commandments of God. If The bible the person is reading is translated correctly it will say repeatedly to keep the commandments.Yepperz. Notice in the Hebrew/Jewish book of Revelation where the Elect Saints are told not only to keep the Commandments but ALSO the Faith of Jesus. :)

Luke 18:20 The commandments thou have known, no thou should be committing adultery, no thou should be murdering, no thou should be stealing, no thou should be bearing false witness. Be honouring thy father and thy mother.

Reve 14:12 Here the endurance of the Saints is, the ones keeping the commandments of the God and the Faith of Jesus.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Yepperz. Notice in the Hebrew/Jewish book of Revelation where the Elect Saints are told not only to keep the Commandments but ALSO the Faith of Jesus. :)

Luke 18:20 The commandments thou have known, no thou should be committing adultery, no thou should be murdering, no thou should be stealing, no thou should be bearing false witness. Be honouring thy father and thy mother.

Reve 14:12 Here the endurance of the Saints is, the ones keeping the commandments of the God and the Faith of Jesus.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.:) Hi there. I spent about 5 months translating Revelation from the 3 major Greek texts. I have about 8 and half chapters on the Christian Scriptures board if thou art interested.

The bible versions today just do not do justice to that highly symbolic divine book.:wave:

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=804


http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7249947
Revelation Chapter 9 verse by verse

[kivi]

Hi. The juiciest one I have is the parable of the "rich-man/lazarus". I recommend to any Jew coming to JESUS to just study this one Covenantle parable.

kivi says: I am not sure why you are side-stepping my question:confused:, but you are side stepping it. You tied the Preisthood, the Pharisees and corruption together in one of your accusations at the beginning of this discussion. When I asked you to give examples you didn't answer. A parablel, when based on reality can be useful to teach a valid moral lesson. But if it is not based on fact, be come a vehicle for hate and falsehood. :o Unfortunately, by not giving factual examples that tie the Preisthood, the Pharisees and corruption together, you are accusing a group of people of crimes they never committed. Just to make an accusation but not to back it up is hardly responsible discussion. Pleaae, will you be kind enough to give your examples so we can all discussion them.:)

The Catholics and Muslims used it for their conception of eternal Hellfire for unbelievers. ;)

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the flame, this."

Luke 16:31 Saying yet to him: "If Moses and the Prophets not they are hearing, neither if ever anyone out of dead-ones may be rising, they shall be being persuaded.

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting/basanismou <929> of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having rest Day and Night

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm

[kivi]

kivi asks: If what you say is true, CM, and you agree with the Rabbi's article, as you so stated, then why is Christianity still actively attempting to convert Jews to Christianity?

I grew up Jewish. I was taught that Christianity was one way "HaShem" used to reach the goyim according to some plan He has. I was told that Christianity was wrong, but that most Christians were good people and not many of the Gentiles were actually Christian anyway. It was good advice about that, but bad advice about Christian theology. Anyway, we live and learn, don't we?

If anyone wants to rise above the offerings on this forum and is interested in a decent article about what at least one educated Jewish Rabbi thinks of the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, I recommend this (http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/center/conferences/Bea_Centre_C-J_Relations_04-05/Laras.htm).

the Rabbi's article will be divided into 2 parts to meet the length standard of CF:

This text is based on the unedited transcripts of lectures given in the series "The Catholic Church and the Jewish People from Vatican II to Today" delivered at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome between October 19, 2004 and January 25, 2005 under the auspices of the Cardinal Bea Centre for Judaic Studies. The full collected texts of the course of lectures will be published during the first half of 2005 by:
Editrice Pontificia Università Gregoriana
Piazza della Pilotta 35
00187 Rome

editricepugpib-info@biblico.it.

Jewish Perspectives on Christianity

Rabbi Prof. Giuseppe Laras


Rome, 4th November 2004 at the PontificalGregorian University

[Rabbi Laras is the Chief Rabbi of Milan]

.
I have been listening with the utmost interest to the words of Bishop Forte and of Cardinal Martini, and it is difficult for me to put forth yet another topic of discussion after two such intense interventions. The latter focused especially on the future, urging us to gaze beyond past events, whereas I shall attempt to examine the reasons for the theological and religious opposition between Judaism and Christianity. Therefore I shall concentrate in a special manner on the past. At the same time, I would like to project this topic from the past into a future that concerns us both and towards which we are going together. Considering the complexity and the controversial nature of the problems under discussion, as well as the short time we have today, my talk shall be very brief.
I would like to preface my considerations with a general observation that is also meant to be an expression of hope for the future. Jewish-Christian dialogue – despite the limits, the flaws, the disappointments, the criticisms and the attacks which it continues to cause – is a dynamic reality; we are not in a situation of stasis. And I would like to quote, applying it to us, a verse from the Book of Deuteronomy (5, 3): “We, all of us who are alive here this day,” are armed more with good will and hope than with wisdom and certainties. The comparison between Christianity and Judaism typical of the past centuries is not that of today; yesterday there were theological disputes, and the Jews were unilaterally asked to attend public assemblies where they had to justify their continued allegiance to the faith of their fathers. Today, Jews and Christians in the spirit of dialogue meet in very different circumstances and with markedly different attitudes. It is nonetheless difficult to deny that from a part of the Jewish world, rabbinical and not rabbinical, there is still a certain resistance, a difficulty about entering into a relationship with Christianity in the context of the initiatives of dialogue. This happens for a series of reasons; some of them are clear and evident, some are less so but do nonetheless exert a determining influence on our relations.
There is of course still the fear or the suspicion that the true goal of the Christians is to attract the Jews to Christianity through dialogue, or that through these contacts those Jews who are less religiously motivated, and thus are more fragile, may be induced to abandon their religion and to embrace Christianity. I have the impression that, from a preliminary and substantial point of view, the true reason behind this resistance is not tied to a subliminal fear or reluctance, but is connected with considerations of a doctrinal type: unlike Christianity in relation with Judaism, Judaism does not need Christianity to understand or to comprehend itself. Today there is a tendency to talk of an “asymmetrical relation” that connects Jews and Christians at the level of dialogue. In other words, for a Christian the encounter with Israel means the rediscovery of one’s own roots, so that Christianity is more clearly defined, understood, and, so to speak, better justified. For a Jew the encounter with Christianity does not carry the same significance. On the contrary, in this second case, the encounter with the other becomes a source of tension and contradiction as soon as the figure of Jesus comes under discussion (and how could it be otherwise?) – a figure that, understood as divine and messianic, contrasts with Israel’s monotheistic or messianic conception. It is also necessary to add that within Christianity’s religious doctrine, where we meet with openness and readiness to change as well as with resistance and hesitation, there are still serious difficulties whenever one tries to define and to indicate the role of the people of Israel. As an example, I am thinking of the interpretation given by the Church of the return of Israel to its land after two thousand years of galut (exile); is it a providential event within a theological vision or a historical and contingent event within a political perspective?
I could continue to discuss these issues, adding yet other considerations, but I am not going to do so, since this is not the issue on which I intend to focus tonight. I would like to bring the discussion to a different level, no longer assessing the Christian theological understanding of Judaism, but rather, starting from inside the Jewish tradition, attempting to outline and evaluate the main points of a Jewish theological understanding of Christianity. The latter, even if essential, is not univocal; it is contradictory, and is still being worked out. Its elaboration is certainly a very difficult and delicate task, whose starting point is the study of the definitions of Christianity given by the Jews in the past; and I am thinking here especially of the Talmudic and the Medieval period.
The question where all discussions arrived and converged, and thus also the main problem to be solved, was whether the Christians had to be considered idolaters or not. In the Talmud we find a distinction between the goyim (including the Christians) living in the land of Israel and the goyim living outside the land of Israel. In order to absolve the former from the accusation of idolatry, it was necessary to make sure that they truly did not practice idolatry; for the second, the presumption that they were not idolaters was sufficient. There is a passage in the Talmud (b. Hullin 13b) that seems to say this: “The idolaters outside Israel are not idolaters, since what they do is to practice, out of habit, the rituals of their fathers.” I have translated a technical expression that means this: "performing certain practices," they do not show a clear intention of celebrating idolatrous rituals. Why do we find this difference of evaluation between those living in the land of Israel and those who are outside of it? Most likely, the Christians of the Holy Land mentioned in the Talmud are the first Christians, the Judeo-Christians, the church of Jerusalem, the church of Jacob, those who had known and practiced the Jewish religion and had subsequently abandoned it. These ones, therefore, knew what they were doing, they knew that they were violating the precept of the [I]yihud ha-Shem (the unity of God), according to which God (ha-Shem) is One (ehad), a precept that concerns those who are born Jews and not those who are outside the people of Israel. According to some, there is a subtle distinction: the descendants of Noah (those non-Jewish individuals who, like the Christians, obey universal moral laws) are subject to the prohibition of idolatry, but are not obliged to embrace monotheism. Thus shittuf (the association of other divine figures to the one God, as in the case of Jesus) can be practiced by them without breaking the prohibition of idolatry, considering that they are not obliged to profess monotheism. end of part 1 [/quote]

[kivi]

kivi asks: If what you say is true, CM, and you agree with the Rabbi's article, as you so stated, then why is Christianity still actively attempting to convert Jews to Christianity?



the Rabbi's article will be divided into 2 parts to meet the length standard of CF:

This text is based on the unedited transcripts of lectures given in the series "The Catholic Church and the Jewish People from Vatican II to Today" delivered at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome between October 19, 2004 and January 25, 2005 under the auspices of the Cardinal Bea Centre for Judaic Studies. The full collected texts of the course of lectures will be published during the first half of 2005 by:
Editrice Pontificia Università Gregoriana
Piazza della Pilotta 35
00187 Rome

editricepugpib-info@biblico.it.

Jewish Perspectives on Christianity

Rabbi Prof. Giuseppe Laras


Rome, 4th November 2004 at the PontificalGregorian University

[Rabbi Laras is the Chief Rabbi of Milan]

beginning of part 2
The question where all discussions arrived and converged, and thus also the main problem to be solved, was whether the Christians had to be considered idolaters or not. In the Talmud we find a distinction between the goyim (including the Christians) living in the land of Israel and the goyim living outside the land of Israel. In order to absolve the former from the accusation of idolatry, it was necessary to make sure that they truly did not practice idolatry; for the second, the presumption that they were not idolaters was sufficient. There is a passage in the Talmud (b. Hullin 13b) that seems to say this: “The idolaters outside Israel are not idolaters, since what they do is to practice, out of habit, the rituals of their fathers.” I have translated a technical expression that means this: "performing certain practices," they do not show a clear intention of celebrating idolatrous rituals. Why do we find this difference of evaluation between those living in the land of Israel and those who are outside of it? Most likely, the Christians of the Holy Land mentioned in the Talmud are the first Christians, the Judeo-Christians, the church of Jerusalem, the church of Jacob, those who had known and practiced the Jewish religion and had subsequently abandoned it. These ones, therefore, knew what they were doing, they knew that they were violating the precept of the [I]yihud ha-Shem (the unity of God), according to which God (ha-Shem) is One (ehad), a precept that concerns those who are born Jews and not those who are outside the people of Israel. According to some, there is a subtle distinction: the descendants of Noah (those non-Jewish individuals who, like the Christians, obey universal moral laws) are subject to the prohibition of idolatry, but are not obliged to embrace monotheism. Thus shittuf (the association of other divine figures to the one God, as in the case of Jesus) can be practiced by them without breaking the prohibition of idolatry, considering that they are not obliged to profess monotheism.
With the passing of time, especially in Medieval Europe, the situation would undergo a radical change. On one hand, idolatry in the proper sense of the term would disappear, and with it also the necessity to fight it. Christians and Muslims would control Europe (the Muslims until the fall of Grenada in 1492). The Jews would have to deal with them in their different roles as rulers and as representatives of different religions. What is the Jewish approach towards Christians and Christianity in the Medieval period? Does this approach change in comparison with the Talmudic period, or does it remain unvaried? In general, one must distinguish between the (Sephardic) rabbis residing in areas under Islamic influence and the (Ashkenazi) rabbis residing in areas under Christian influence.
The Sephardic front is authoritatively represented by Maimonides, who, if compared with the diversified position of the Talmud, takes a more radical and univocal stance, eliminating the distinction between the inhabitants of the land of Israel and those living outside Israel, treating all Christians as “idolaters” tout-court. Next to this negative vision of Christian theology, Maimonides does however give a more open and moderate assessment of the Messianic role of Christianity and Islam in the world. Here is for instance a passage of the Treatise on Kings, which does not appear in all editions (of the Mishneh Torah), because in most of them it is censored: “To understand the thoughts of the Creator of the world is not possible to man, because our ways are not His ways and our thoughts are not His thoughts (Is 55,8); nevertheless, all the words of Jesus of Nazareth and of the son of Ishmael [Mohammed] who came after him are aimed at paving the way to the King-Messiah and at preparing the whole world to serve God together, as it is written: ‘because I shall then transform the language of the peoples into a pure language, so that all shall invoke the Name of the Lord shall serve him in a sole unit [all together, in harmony]’ (Sof. 3,9)”. Following the line of thought begun by Yehuda ha-Levy in the Kuzari, Maimonides lets Christianity and Islam, so to speak, do a “qualitative leap”: he includes the two religions within a sole providential plan that sees them as protagonists of a preparatory itinerary of humanity as a whole towards the Messianic event.
In the so-called Ashkenazi world, where we find personalities such as Rashi, the Tosafists, and other rabbinical authorities who carry much weight in the French-Germanic environment, it is emphasized that the Christians (in the countries where the Jews lived) are not idolaters. We can therefore see a rather marked distinction between the evaluation of the Christians given by the Sephardic world represented by Maimonides and the evaluation given in general by the highest authorities of the European Ashkenazi world. According to the latter, the Christians are not idolaters, or they do not know of any idolatrous practice, or – echoing the well-known claim by Rabbi Yohanan mentioned earlier (from the treatise Hullin of the Talmud) – “ what they do is to practice out of habit the rituals of their fathers,” without any intention of thereby carrying out idolatrous practices. In such a delicate context, we ought to mention a rather odd circumstance. In a very important halakhic text (the Tur by Ya’aqov ben Asher), the controversialist and jurist Joseph Caro explicitly mentions that “at the present time [we are in the 16th century], the Christians believe in the Creator of the world and thus are not to be considered idolaters.” In another work of his, the codifying treatise Shulhan Arukh, the same Joseph Caro does however fail completely to mention his conviction as a halakhic norm.
Within this complex horizon, a special case is represented by the position of a famous 14th century scholar from Provence, Rabbi Menachem ben Shelomò ha-Meiri (1249-1315). He thinks that Christianity has nothing to do with idolatry and that the prohibitions mentioned in the Talmud about the idolaters do not concern the Christians. Thus he writes: “even if their faith is different from ours, they do not belong to the category of idolaters”; “they believe in the existence of God the Blessed One, in His uniqueness and omnipotence, even if in some respects, from the point of view of our faith, they incur in some errors”; and later, “in our time, in the majority of cases, even if sometimes they share oaths in the name of important dead personages [the saints], they nonetheless do not consider them deities [and thus there is no idolatry]”. Meiri’s position is certainly remarkable and authoritative, even if these conclusions of his, which appear wholly to exclude Christianity from the problematic of idolatry, seem to be rather unique.
In such a tormented context, characterized by contradictory positions and thoughts, sometimes oriented towards a more moderate appraisal, sometimes towards a more critical judgment of the Christian religion, Maimonides’ ambivalent opinion – negatively on the theological level, but positively open in its Messianic perspective – appears to be the clearest and most straightforward affirmation of the involvement of Christianity in a providential role of a Messianic-providential type. And this opinion continues to represent a major stepping stone in the path that Christianity and Judaism make together, though along parallel and distinct planes. Maybe even the category of the “descendants of Noah,” which is admittedly rather inadequate and weak, may still be used to think of Christianity in Jewish terms and to reconcile conceptually (and not only conceptually) the two religions.
Let us not forget that in the past century, in the heart of a European continent that some thought most civilized, we witnessed the explosion of the Shoah, with its burden of suffering and death – and the idea of dialogue came as a consequence of the Shoah. As I said, dialogue continues and must be sustained because it is a unique occasion to think and to speak together: the only open road which we can both follow so as to be present, together, whenever God shall so desire. “Things that are hidden belong to the Lord our God” (Deut. 29, 28). As far as we are concerned, and as was just emphasized by Cardinal Martini, we should not behave as if we were in a rush; we ought not to have too many certainties (personally, I have more questions to make than answers to offer); we ought not to be tempted to “wake up love” (Song of Songs 2, 7) before it is time. Thanks to our faith, we must be optimistic; we must be trusting and we must be convinced that, when the moment shall come, God shall open our eyes and our hearts, showing us the truth. Thus, we must be “alive” and walk together in the direction of that goal, with sentiments of love, respect and humility. end of part 2

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

:) Hi there. I spent about 5 months translating Revelation from the 3 major Greek texts. I have about 8 and half chapters on the Christian Scriptures board if thou art interested.

The bible versions today just do not do justice to that highly symbolic divine book.:wave:

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=804


http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7249947
Revelation Chapter 9 verse by verse
The word abyss means bottomless pit, it can also mean deep unknown. I also have my own translation of Revelation, but I would not care to share it, because it is transliteral, and little bit different.

[kivi]

kivis says: We are, in effect, unless very strict conditions are met, forbidden to read anything about the religious theology or practices of foreign gods. So, it would not enter into the normal or Torah approved actions of a Jew to read the New Testament in any langauge. Some of us can speak to teaching of the New Testament because of nature of our personal history. Which is, to be honest, a sad thing. I know most of the English translations, I studied the Greek Christian/pagan Septuagint at Union Theological during a course. I have some passing aquaintance with the Vulgate.


We (גוים) are told we cannot understand the T'nakh unless we read it in the original languages. Have you read any of the Greek NT in the original Greek and its socio-historical context? If not,

שׁוא ידברו אישׁ את־רעהו שׂפת חלקות בלב ולב ידברו׃

[LittleLambofJesus]

The word abyss means bottomless pit, it can also mean deep unknown. I also have my own translation of Revelation, but I would not care to share it, because it is transliteral, and little bit different.Kewl. What I do is copy/paste the greek texts to wordpad note the variances in them and generally go with the 2 that agree. I have found in some verses where all 3 may differ slightly. The NASB/NIV seem to use the W-H while the KJV/NKJV use the Tex-Rec. But again, each to his own way.

Reve 5:5 And one out of the Elders is saying to me: "No be lamenting! Behold! Conquers, the Lion, the out of the tribe of Judah, the root of David to open-up the scrollet and [to-loose/TR] the seven seals of it".

Textus Rec.) Revelation 5:5 kai eiV ek twn presbuterwn legei moi mh klaie idou enikhsen o lewn o wn ek thV fulhV iouda h riza dauid anoixai to biblion kai lusai taV epta sfragidaV autou

W-H ) Revelation 5:5 kai eiV ek twn presbuterwn legei moi mh klaie idou enikhsen o lewn o ek thV fulhV iouda h riza dauid anoixai to biblion kai taV epta sfragidaV autou

Byz./Maj.) Revelation 5:5 kai eiV ek twn presbuterwn legei moi mh klaie idou enikhsen o lewn o ek thV fulhV iouda h riza dauid anoixai to biblion kai taV epta sfragidaV autou

NASB) Revelation 5:5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."

NKJV) Revelation 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

[kivi]

According to the "heathen" atheists, the whole Bible is considered by them that way. :D

Whenever they bring up the OC Hebrew Scriptures for us to explain, I just tell them to ask the Jews as it is their Scriptures also.

kivi says: If I might disagree with you, but I don't think that you, as a Christian, should have the right to define what is and what is not Jewish Scriptutres. Neither the New Testament for the Old Testament are Jewish Scriptures. Jewish Scriptures are the Chumash, the rest of the Tanach, the Talmud and the post Talmudic Responsa.

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivi says: If I might disagree with you, but I don't think that you, as a Christian, should have the right to define what is and what is not Jewish Scriptutres. Neither the New Testament for the Old Testament are Jewish Scriptures. Jewish Scriptures are the Chumash, the rest of the Tanach, the Talmud and the post Talmudic Responsa.Ok. I will make a note of that. I just use the whole Bible so it is much simpler that way :wave:

Genesis 3:15 And enmity I am setting between thee and between the woman, and between seed of thee and between seed of her, he, he shall hurt thou head, and thou, thou shall hurt him heel".

Revelation 12:14 And were given to the woman the two wings of the eagle, the great, that she may be flying into the wilderness into the place of her where she is being nourished there time, times and half equal time from face of the Serpent

[kivi]

kivi says: The Book of Revelations is not part of the Jewish Scriptures. it is part of the Christian Bible.

Yepperz. Notice in the Hebrew/Jewish book of Revelation where the Elect Saints are told not only to keep the Commandments but ALSO the Faith of Jesus. :)

Luke 18:20 The commandments thou have known, no thou should be committing adultery, no thou should be murdering, no thou should be stealing, no thou should be bearing false witness. Be honouring thy father and thy mother.

Reve 14:12 Here the endurance of the Saints is, the ones keeping the commandments of the God and the Faith of Jesus.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2

[kivi]

kivi says: Oh, what you do privately is between you and yourself, but you shared that you told others that the Bible were the Jewish Scriptures. It is your public mis-information that I was pointing out.

Ok. I will make a note of that. I just use the whole Bible so it is much simpler that way :wave:

Genesis 3:15 And enmity I am setting between thee and between the woman, and between seed of thee and between seed of her, he, he shall hurt thou head, and thou, thou shall hurt him heel".

Revelation 12:14 And were given to the woman the two wings of the eagle, the great, that she may be flying into the wilderness into the place of her where she is being nourished there time, times and half equal time from face of the Serpent

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivi says: Oh, what you do privately is between you and yourself, but you shared that you told others that the Bible were the Jewish Scriptures. It is your public mis-information that I was pointing out.Ok. I generally like to refer to the OT as the "Old Covenant" and the NT as the "New Covenant" such as this thread on the GA board:
Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47726361#post47726361) Out of all the Kings of "Israel and Judah" in the OC Hebrew Scriptures., how many do you think were good?


Btw, what is the Chumash :confused:
kivi says: If I might disagree with you, but I don't think that you, as a Christian, should have the right to define what is and what is not Jewish Scriptutres. Neither the New Testament for the Old Testament are Jewish Scriptures. Jewish Scriptures are the Chumash, the rest of the Tanach, the Talmud and the post Talmudic Responsa.
2 Corin 3:14 But was hardened the minds of them. For until the today day, the same covering upon the reading of the Old Covenant is remaining, no being up-covered that In Christ it is being-taken-away

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: Oh, what you do privately is between you and yourself, but you shared that you told others that the Bible were the Jewish Scriptures. It is your public mis-information that I was pointing out. The book of Revelation is based upon the Old Testament.

[kivi]

Ok. I generally like to refer to the OT as the "Old Covenant" and the NT as the "New Covenant" such as this thread on the GA board:
Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47726361#post47726361) Out of all the Kings of "Israel and Judah" in the OC Hebrew Scriptures., how many do you think were good?

kivvi says: Whatever you do with your private life, go for it. As Jews, we really have no opinion on Christian matters unless they negatively effect us, such as evangelism efforts. Just please remember that the the New Testament and the Old Testament/Old Covenant and the New Covenant as not Jewish scriptures.


Btw, what is the Chumash :confused:

kivi says: The Chumash is the 5 Books of Moses. Until the invention of printing, there was no published Tanach, as such. That is, the Tanach was not published as a whole. Each of the Books in the Tanach were published as megillahs, single poll scrolls. The Chumash, on the other hand, was published as a 5 Book, double polled scroll. So, until printing, what you had in your library was a Toral Scroll containing the Chumash and a bunch of individual megillahs ech contaiing one of the canonized books. In fact the word 'Tanach' has no meaning of its own, it is merely the achronym of several Hebrew words. The current one-book organization of the Tanach was not done by Rabbis, as such; rather it was an evolving set publisher's choices and decisions based on market response over the generations.


2 Corin 3:14 But was hardened the minds of them. For until the today day, the same covering upon the reading of the Old Covenant is remaining, no being up-covered that In Christ it is being-taken-away

[kivi]

The book of Revelation is based upon the Old Testament.

kivi says:
I was a school teacher for a long time. I monitored a lot of school playground recesses. One year there was a kid who did the following. He would tease some of the other kids. He wasn't a bully, he couldn't pull that off. But he would mess up their games taking and hiding the ball or running through the middle of the dodgeball game or some such other really annoying thing. He would chase the girls and get them all screaming, he would have the boys chasing him so they could 'get' him and in a few minutes he would have the entire playground in an uproar. He loved to run to me, blaming all the other kids for picking on him. It was total chaos and there I was, trying to deal with 'he said, they said' and never really seeing the first cause of the upset!!!! So, I would scream at everybody to behave, threatening to take eveybody's recess away and the uproar would quiet down until next recess and then, start up all over again. Recess after recess after recess. It was a Baruka that one of my students pointed out to me exactly what was happening. I checked it out for myself and the student was right. I thought on it for a while, checked with my principal and put this plan of action into effect. We ignored him. It was hard. He was very good at what he did. It was really hard not to react to his behaviors. But we stuck with it, encouraging each other to stay out of it and not get hooked, ignoring his junky actions and teasing. Over time, the situation did improve somewhat. His behaviors never really went away, he would keep trying to get the uproar started, testing to see if our guard was down. But, eventually, most of the junk behavior by him stopped. Recesses were a lot more enjoyable for everybody. Well, maybe not him. But the rest of us stopped dreading recess and started looking forward to it.
__________________

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Chemosh means "highest authority." It is also a Babylonian sun god having to do with the position of the sun at noon. Allah AKA Alilah is also a Babylonian sun god having to do with the position of the sun in the morning. Alilah transliteration: The god ascends.

[jaihare]

:) Hi there. I spent about 5 months translating Revelation from the 3 major Greek texts. I have about 8 and half chapters on the Christian Scriptures board if thou art interested.
I'm more interested in knowing how someone who doesn't know Greek (which is a VERY nuanced language) can propose himself to create a new translation from the Greek.

Jason

[jaihare]

Chemosh means "highest authority." It is also a Babylonian sun god having to do with the position of the sun at noon. Allah AKA Alilah is also a Babylonian sun god having to do with the position of the sun in the morning. Alilah transliteration: The god ascends.
Al-ilah does not mean "the god ascends".

ا is the Arabic letter alif (silent).
ل is the Arabic letter laam (l).
ه is the Arabic letter haa (h).

Put them together with a hamza holding the vowel of the beginning, and you get إله ilah. This is the Arabic word for "god" (in general), and it corresponds to the Hebrew and Aramaic אלה (alef lamed heh), eloah "god".

The definite article in Arabic is ال al. When we want to say "the", we add ال to a word. Thus, الـإله means "the - god". To combine them in the natural way, we write الإله al-ilah.

It has nothing to do with ascending, which is the root ع.ل.ه and not ا.ل.ه

Jason

[jaihare]

Chemosh means "highest authority." It is also a Babylonian sun god having to do with the position of the sun at noon. Allah AKA Alilah is also a Babylonian sun god having to do with the position of the sun in the morning. Alilah transliteration: The god ascends.
The word Chumash (חומש) does not come from the Chemosh (כמוש). It comes from the word chamesh (חמש), which means "five". It is the five-book set of the Torah.

The Chumash contains the text of the five books of Moses as well as commentaries from great Sages of Israel, usually at least Rashi. It often contains a translation of the text into Aramaic as well, called the "Onkelos" translation.

It has nothing to do with "Chemosh" at all.

Jason

[LittleLambofJesus]

The book of Revelation is based upon the Old Testament.It appears to be based on all of the OT/OC. In fact, I have a view that Revelation is symbolically a battle between "israel" and "judah".

The 10 kings mentioned could be of the house/nation of "israel". "judah" consisted of 3 tribes of Judah, Levi and Benjamin.

Btw, how do you view those 2 Kings in the jewish book of Daniel? I found 1 Kings 22 interesting as it shows both the king of "israel" and "judah" sitting on thrones. I am just now studying on this.

Daniel 11:27 and Two of them, the Kings, heart of them to evil-mischief, and on a table one lie they shall speak. And not she shall prosper, that further End/07093 qets to appointed-time/04150 mow`ed.

1 Kings 22:2 And it came to pass in the third year, that Y@howshaphat the king of Y@huwdah came down to the king of Yisra'el .
10 And the king of Yisra'el and Y@howshaphat the king of Y@huwdah sat each on his throne, having put on their robes, in a void place in the entrance of the gate of Shom@rown; and all the prophets prophesied before them.

Notice these 10 kings DO NOT have a Kingdom as yet remembering that the northern house of "israel" was put away by YHWH in the OC. Interesting. :wave:

Reve 17:12 And the ten horns which you saw, ten kings are, who any a-Kingdom Not-Yet received, but authority as kings, one hour they are receiving/ with the wild beast,

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Al-ilah does not mean "the god ascends".

ا is the Arabic letter alif (silent).
ل is the Arabic letter laam (l).
ه is the Arabic letter haa (h).

Put them together with a hamza holding the vowel of the beginning, and you get إله ilah. This is the Arabic word for "god" (in general), and it corresponds to the Hebrew and Aramaic אלה (alef lamed heh), eloah "god".

The definite article in Arabic is ال al. When we want to say "the", we add ال to a word. Thus, الـإله means "the - god". To combine them in the natural way, we write الإله al-ilah.

It has nothing to do with ascending, which is the root ع.ل.ه and not ا.ل.ه

Jason Are you a Muslim? The reason I ask is because you support the Muslim point of view. The word Al il ah is Chaldean, also known as Aramaic. But it is not Arabic. Allah is a contraction of Alilah. Mohammed said, "you already believe that Alilah is a god, why not believe he is the only god."

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

The word Chumash (חומש) does not come from the Chemosh (כמוש). It comes from the word chamesh (חמש), which means "five". It is the five-book set of the Torah.

The Chumash contains the text of the five books of Moses as well as commentaries from great Sages of Israel, usually at least Rashi. It often contains a translation of the text into Aramaic as well, called the "Onkelos" translation.

It has nothing to do with "Chemosh" at all.

Jason Because of all the variant spellings for Chemosh, I thought you misspelled the word Chemosh. I thought you were saying the Torah was the highest authority. Actually Moses only wrote four of the books.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by jaihare http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47731270#post47731270)
Al-ilah does not mean "the god ascends".

ا is the Arabic letter alif (silent).
ل is the Arabic letter laam (l).
ه is the Arabic letter haa (h).

Put them together with a hamza holding the vowel of the beginning, and you get إله ilah. This is the Arabic word for "god" (in general), and it corresponds to the Hebrew and Aramaic אלה (alef lamed heh), eloah "god".

The definite article in Arabic is ال al. When we want to say "the", we add ال to a word. Thus, الـإله means "the - god". To combine them in the natural way, we write الإله al-ilah.

It has nothing to do with ascending, which is the root ع.ل.ه and not ا.ل.ه

Jason
HI there. Is that not the same way in Hebrew with the article "the"? When the article "the" is put before Elohiym for example, does that signify anything significant than just the plain Elohiym?

Btw, are you a Muslim? Thanks.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Exodus 3:12 And He is saying: "That I Shall Be/01961 hayah with thee, and this for thee the-Sign that I sent thee in to bring forth thee the people out of Egypt. Ye shall serve The-'Elohiym on the Mountain, this.'
13 And- Mosheh -is-saying to The-'Elohiym , "Lo, I coming to sons of Yisra'el, and I say to them, 'Elohiym of thine fathers He sends me to ye'. And they have said to me, 'What Name of Him'? What shall I say to them"?

[jaihare]

Because of all the variant spellings for Chemosh, I thought you misspelled the word Chemosh. I thought you were saying the Torah was the highest authority. Actually Moses only wrote four of the books.
The Torah is the highest authority. I don't know where you got that Moses wrote only four books, but there are those who think he wrote none of them. Your position is no better to me than theirs. I believe in the Torah, from heaven, period.

Jason

[jaihare]

HI there. Is that not the same way in Hebrew with the article "the"? When the article "the" is put before Elohiym for example, does that signify anything significant than just the plain Elohiym?
Yeah, Hebrew and Arabic are very similar languages.

Btw, are you a Muslim? Thanks.
Of course not. If the two of you both ask this question at this point, it's no wonder you don't understand anything else that I have said on this forum.

Jason

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yeah, Hebrew and Arabic are very similar languages.


Of course not. If the two of you both ask this question at this point, it's no wonder you don't understand anything else that I have said on this forum.

JasonOoops. I apologize then. :wave:

[Torah613]

The Torah is the highest authority. I don't know where you got that Moses wrote only four books, but there are those who think he wrote none of them. Your position is no better to me than theirs. I believe in the Torah, from heaven, period.

Jason

B"H!!!!!!!

Every word of the Torah, including those little fancy crowns, was given to Moishe on Mt. Sinai by HaShem. This is the Jewish position.

Yochanan

[LittleLambofJesus]

B"H!!!!!!!

Every word of the Torah, including those little fancy crowns, was given to Moishe on Mt. Sinai by HaShem. This is the Jewish position.

YochananI wonder if there are some Messianics that can give me a view on this verse by Paul.
Did Moses bring life to man because of the Commandments/Law given by YHWH?

Romans 5:14 But reigns the death from Adam to Moses, and/even upon the ones not sinning upon the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is type who is being about.

[Torah613]

Without the Torah, without the Mitzvoth, there is no life.

I used to wonder how I ever lived before I returned Torah. Then I realized that before Torah I was not alive, my neshama was dead.

Yochanan

[LittleLambofJesus]

Without the Torah, without the Mitzvoth, there is no life.

I used to wonder how I ever lived before I returned Torah. Then I realized that before Torah I was not alive, my neshama was dead.

YochananAnother words, the Torah "resurrected" ya. :)

Ezekiel 37:10 And I prophecy as He instructed and the spirit/breath is coming in them, and they are living, and are standing on their feet, an army/host, great, exceedingly-exceedingly. [Luke 2:34/Reve 11:11]

Luke 2:34 and Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, `Lo, this-one is set for the falling and resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign spoken against--

[Torah613]

well, I wouldn't really put it that way, but then again I'm not a chr*stian.

I would say, that I was merely blind and bumbling around. Sure my physical bodily functions (heart beating etc.) were going on, but my neshama (soul) was in deep hibernation mode. When one starts eating Kosher, observing Shabbos, observing Tzunis (in other words becoming Shomer Mitzvoth--observant of the commandments), one realizes that the Torah is not only Etz Chayim (the Tree of Life) but also a well that never runs dry and continually cleanses the Neshama.

When one observes Mitzvoth (commandments) divine light comes down into our neshamot (souls). When the neshama (soul) is overfilled with this divine light, it spills out into others around us and elevates the divine sparks within their neshamot (souls) as well. This is the essence of redemption from a Jewish perspective.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

well, I wouldn't really put it that way, but then again I'm not a chr*stian.

I would say, that I was merely blind and bumbling around. Sure my physical bodily functions (heart beating etc.) were going on, but my neshama (soul) was in deep hibernation mode. When one starts eating Kosher, observing Shabbos, observing Tzunis (in other words becoming Shomer Mitzvoth--observant of the commandments), one realizes that the Torah is not only Etz Chayim (the Tree of Life) but also a well that never runs dry and continually cleanses the Neshama.

When one observes Mitzvoth (commandments) divine light comes down into our neshamot (souls). When the neshama (soul) is overfilled with this divine light, it spills out into others around us and elevates the divine sparks within their neshamot (souls) as well. This is the essence of redemption from a Jewish perspective.

Yochanan

Very nice. Yochanan. :thumbsup:

[kivi]

kivi says: You have right to hold any opinion. The earth is flat, the sun revolves around the earth. Whatever. However, that does not change the fact the Revelations is not a Jewish document, that it is not written in Hebrew or Aramaic, that is not part of the Torah, that it is not accepted by Judaism. Theories, which are not facts, you can play with until your heart's content. That does not mean you get to define Judaism, what Jews believe or what they practice or anything about our religion. Of course revelations would be based on the OT/OC, the OT/OC is a Christian document, translated by Christians and interperted by Christians. YOU have not used a Jewish document like the Tanach. Just using Jewish title names to disguise the Christian content of the OT/OC is hardly 'kosher', wouldn't you agree..

It appears to be based on all of the OT/OC. In fact, I have a view that Revelation is symbolically a battle between "israel" and "judah".

The 10 kings mentioned could be of the house/nation of "israel". "judah" consisted of 3 tribes of Judah, Levi and Benjamin.

Btw, how do you view those 2 Kings in the jewish book of Daniel? I found 1 Kings 22 interesting as it shows both the king of "israel" and "judah" sitting on thrones. I am just now studying on this.

kivi says: LLofG, is this how you create your religion? You speculate on theories with no basis in hsitoric fact. You imagine what might have been. You fantasize on the possibilities. You see an image in one book, a simular imagine in another book and you try to match them up, even thought the context of both passages make it clear that the two have nothing to do with each other. Is that how you do it? For example: I look for a Devil in the Old Testament and when I compare it to the Tanach, I see that the Christian translators have 'got it wrong. Do you know why that is?

11:27 and Two of them, the Kings, heart of them to evil-mischief, and on a table one lie they shall speak. And not she shall prosper, that further End/07093 qets to appointed-time/04150 mow`ed.

1 Kings 22:2 And it came to pass in the third year, that Y@howshaphat the king of Y@huwdah came down to the king of Yisra'el .
10 And the king of Yisra'el and Y@howshaphat the king of Y@huwdah sat each on his throne, having put on their robes, in a void place in the entrance of the gate of Shom@rown; and all the prophets prophesied before them.

Notice these 10 kings DO NOT have a Kingdom as yet remembering that the northern house of "israel" was put away by YHWH in the OC. Interesting. :wave:

Reve 17:12 And the ten horns which you saw, ten kings are, who any a-Kingdom Not-Yet received, but authority as kings, one hour they are receiving/ with the wild beast,

[LittleLambofJesus]

well, I wouldn't really put it that way, but then again I'm not a chr*stian.

I would say, that I was merely blind and bumbling around. Sure my physical bodily functions (heart beating etc.) were going on, but my neshama (soul) was in deep hibernation mode. When one starts eating Kosher, observing Shabbos, observing Tzunis (in other words becoming Shomer Mitzvoth--observant of the commandments), one realizes that the Torah is not only Etz Chayim (the Tree of Life) but also a well that never runs dry and continually cleanses the Neshama.

When one observes Mitzvoth (commandments) divine light comes down into our neshamot (souls). When the neshama (soul) is overfilled with this divine light, it spills out into others around us and elevates the divine sparks within their neshamot (souls) as well. This is the essence of redemption from a Jewish perspective.

YochananI understand. That was beautifully put btw. Shalom. :groupray:

[ShirChadash]

well, I wouldn't really put it that way, but then again I'm not a chr*stian.

I would say, that I was merely blind and bumbling around. Sure my physical bodily functions (heart beating etc.) were going on, but my neshama (soul) was in deep hibernation mode. When one starts eating Kosher, observing Shabbos, observing Tzunis (in other words becoming Shomer Mitzvoth--observant of the commandments), one realizes that the Torah is not only Etz Chayim (the Tree of Life) but also a well that never runs dry and continually cleanses the Neshama.

When one observes Mitzvoth (commandments) divine light comes down into our neshamot (souls). When the neshama (soul) is overfilled with this divine light, it spills out into others around us and elevates the divine sparks within their neshamot (souls) as well. This is the essence of redemption from a Jewish perspective.

Yochanan:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cool:

[Kris10leigh]

well, I wouldn't really put it that way, but then again I'm not a chr*stian.

I would say, that I was merely blind and bumbling around. Sure my physical bodily functions (heart beating etc.) were going on, but my neshama (soul) was in deep hibernation mode. When one starts eating Kosher, observing Shabbos, observing Tzunis (in other words becoming Shomer Mitzvoth--observant of the commandments), one realizes that the Torah is not only Etz Chayim (the Tree of Life) but also a well that never runs dry and continually cleanses the Neshama.

When one observes Mitzvoth (commandments) divine light comes down into our neshamot (souls). When the neshama (soul) is overfilled with this divine light, it spills out into others around us and elevates the divine sparks within their neshamot (souls) as well. This is the essence of redemption from a Jewish perspective.

Yochanan
A humbling post. :thumbsup: