Do Jews believe this? [Archive] - Page 2

LittleLambofJesus

19th June 2008, 02:20 AM

The priest in those days could have kept the Christians as a sect of Judaism, but they made it the death penalty. The Christians also fell victim to the Romans. And to make matters worse, the pagan Christians wiped out the Judaeo Christians. (Back then they were called Judaizing Christians.) Did you know that Christian Trinitarism has it roots in Jewish Gnosticism. The world could be a better place today if not for those events.Evidently, they were yet "carnal". We however now have the Spirit of Peace and Love among others. I can get along with Jews just as well as I can get along with Muslims and all other religions. I never get into "trinitarism" arguments myself :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Ephesian 3:17 To dwell the Christ thru the Faith in the hearts of ye in Love, having been rooted and having been founded, 18 That ye should be being strong to be grasping/apprehending together to all the Saints what the breadth and length and height and depth ,
19To know the transcending of the knowledge love of the Christ , that ye may be being filled into all filling of the God/YHWH

Reve 21:15 And the one talking with me had measure reed, golden, that he should be measuring the City and the gates of Her and the wall of Her
16 And the City four cornered is-lying, and the length of Her as much as, and the breadth. And he measures the City to the reed on stadia twelve thousands the length and the breath and the height of Her equals is
17 And he measures the wall of Her, hundred forty four of cubits, measure of a Man, which is of a Messenger.

GerTzedek

19th June 2008, 12:39 PM

MTAA:

By the time Chrysostom was accusing Jews of deicide, Christianity had not been a sect of Judaism for almost 300 years.

Qalevra

19th June 2008, 02:37 PM

Martin Luther (1483-1546):The Jews and Their Lies, excerpts (1543)[...]

It is a truly chilling piece of authorship. I read it in the original German as a topic of study in European anti-Semitism for my modern languages degree. I actually didn't know an English version existed. This is one work that I think many protestant Christians would be embarrassed to know existed.

ShirChadash

19th June 2008, 02:49 PM

Just remember this: It was not the Judaeo Christians that persecuted the Jews (Hebrews.)

uhm, maybe not according to your definition. Mosey on into any more-orthodox Chr*tian forum here and ask the members if they are Judeo-Chr*tians. I bet the overwhelming reply from Catholics and all more-liturgical, closer to orthodoxy protestants would fall in the yes department. You can't just change the definition of a word because you want it to mean something no one else considers it to exclusively mean, MTAA, and declare that it no longer "covers" all the others it always has.

ShirChadash

19th June 2008, 03:23 PM

MichaelTheeArchAngel

19th June 2008, 03:58 PM

And I am sorry to say, the same goes for your constant use of the phrase Jews (Hebrews) which you seem to think is making your point quietly that you think since there were Hebrews in the "OT", there must be Hebrews today aside from actual Jews, and following your logic, if so that means those non-Jewish "hebrews" are in fact Jews. No, on all counts no. Your opinion does not agree with history or biblical facts. And also: There are many churches that say they are the true Protestant remnant, but that also is not true according to history. The true Protestant Churches were the Judaizing Christians that the Catholics destroyed. They are the ones who were killed for not keeping the Sunday Sabbath, or accepting the Trinity doctrine, or the Popes authority in other matters. The so called Protestant Churches today are only subdivided from the Catholic Church. That is why the Catholic Church tries to entice them to come back to her.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

19th June 2008, 04:08 PM

jaihare

19th June 2008, 04:45 PM

Yes. I could put it up as this but I find it a little easier for others to see the similarity of greek words putting it up as transliterated. I could always put up the Koine Greek as well. This greek/hebrew/interlinear has all 3. :)

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 24:31 and He shall be sending His messengers with a Trumpet/salpiggoV <4536> sound, great, and they shall be upon-together-gathering/episunaxousin <1996> (5692) the out-called-ones of Him out of the four winds, from extremities of heavens till the extremities of them. [Ezekiel 7:1-3/Ezekiel 37:9]

Revelation 8:6 And the seven messengers having the seven trumpets/salpiggaV <4536> make ready themselves, that they-should-be-trumpeting/salpiswsin <4537> (5661) ;

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm
Abraham's Bosom
So, do you know the difference between V and ς? Or do you only copy and paste?

jaihare

19th June 2008, 04:47 PM

Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but a assembly of peoples. They are the congregation of Zion. And that is according to scripture and history. A Hebrew may or may not be a Jew.

Two things:

(1) Zion is a mountain in Jerusalem.

(2) Jew refers to someone who belongs to the Southern Kingdom (Judah), those who remain of Israel at this time.

Jason

jaihare

19th June 2008, 04:55 PM

And OBTW I know Hebrew, I suggest that most folks here couldn't locate a Hebrew verb if their life depended on it. And as one of my professors said, "That does not mean opening your HOT, pointing, and saying here it is."
Well, it is a Christian website. ;)

How good is your Hebrew, then? Do you speak or just play about? I'm not talking about verb conjugation but about communication or comprehension.

Jason

MichaelTheeArchAngel

19th June 2008, 04:55 PM

Two things:

(1) Zion is a mountain in Jerusalem.

(2) Jew refers to someone who belongs to the Southern Kingdom (Judah), those who remain of Israel at this time.

Jason Yes, I know. But don't forget about all of the parabolic words that are in scripture. And there are many of them.

jaihare

19th June 2008, 04:57 PM

Yes, I know. But don't forget about all of the parabolic words that are in scripture. And there are many of them.
I didn't realize you were talking about parabolic meanings when you used history as your support.

jaihare

19th June 2008, 05:02 PM

HOT = Hebrew Old Testament (I assume)

MichaelTheeArchAngel

19th June 2008, 05:08 PM

I didn't realize you were talking about parabolic meanings when you used history as your support. HOT = Hebrew Old Testament (I assume) Yes, parables in the Old Testament. Not History.

GerTzedek

19th June 2008, 05:43 PM

ShirChadash

19th June 2008, 08:59 PM

LittleLambofJesus

19th June 2008, 09:24 PM

Jaihare:

The tribe of Manassah has been found and is presently making aliyah to Israel. They would be very insulted if you told them they are not Jews. Basically, the usage of the word "Jew" is changed to mean anyone of the people of Israel.I would disagree. Wheh YHWH spoke of the Israelites he spoke of all 12 tribes. When He spoke of the Jews, they were of the ones of the Tribes of Judah, Levi and Benjamin and the only reason those of Benjamin would be called Jews is they were joined to the Tribe of Judah. Thoughts?

Reve 5:5 And one out of the Elders is saying to me: "No be lamenting! Behold! Conquers the Lion, the out of the Tribe of Judah, the root of David to open-up the scrollet and the seven seals of it".

ShirChadash

19th June 2008, 09:31 PM

(in reply to MTAA)
Hebrew:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hebrew
Main Entry:He·brew http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?hebrew01.wav=Hebrew%27%29)Pronunciation: \ˈhē-(ˌ)brü\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English Ebreu, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin Hebraeus, from Latin, adjective, from Greek Hebraios, from Aramaic ʽEbraiDate:13th century 1 a: the Semitic language of the ancient Hebrews (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hebrews) b: any of various later forms of this language 2: a member of or descendant from one of a group of northern Semitic peoples including the Israelites; especially : israelite (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/israelite)
— Hebrew adjective

Israelite:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/israelite
1Is·ra·el·ite http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?israel04.wav=Israelite%27%29)Pronunciation: \ˈiz-r(ē-)ə-ˌlīt\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English, from Late Latin Israelita, from Greek Israēlitēs, from IsraēlDate:14th century
: a descendant of the Hebrew patriarch Jacob; specifically : a native or inhabitant of the ancient northern kingdom of Israel (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/israel)

Jew:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Jew
Main Entry:Jew http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?jew00001.wav=Jew%27%29)Pronunciation: \ˈjü\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French ju, jeu, from Latin Judaeus, from Greek Ioudaios, from Hebrew Yĕhūdhī, from Yĕhūdhāh Judah, Jewish kingdomDate:13th century 1 a: a member of the tribe of Judah b: israelite (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/israelite)2: a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century b.c. to the first century a.d.3: a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people4: one whose religion is Judaism

MichaelTheeArchAngel

19th June 2008, 09:55 PM

contrary to your expert opinion, you are incorrect. ;) Well then, let me ask you this question. Who were the Hebrews? Were the Hebrews a race of people? Abraham was a Hebrew, and the semetic tribes came from him. Who came out of Egypt with Moses. Jews or Hebrews?

ShirChadash

19th June 2008, 09:59 PM

See above --

Well then, let me ask you this question. Who were the Hebrews? Were the Hebrews a race of people? Abraham was a Hebrew, and the semetic tribes came from him. Who came out of Egypt with Moses. Jews or Hebrews?

Hebrew --
2: a member of or descendant from one of a group of northern Semitic peoples including the Israelites; especially : israelite (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/israelite)

:wave:

MichaelTheeArchAngel

19th June 2008, 10:12 PM

See above --

Hebrew --
2: a member of or descendant from one of a group of northern Semitic peoples including the Israelites; especially : israelite (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/israelite)

:wave:
Ok then, there is your answer. The Hebrews came out of Egypt with Moses. But also other peoples were joined with them. And so what are these Hebrews and other peoples called, who are partakers in the religion of Judaism?

ShirChadash

19th June 2008, 10:18 PM

No, there is your answer. Hebrews can not be claimed to be a hundred things, but are only (as the dictionary makes very clear) Hebrew --
a member of or descendant from one of a group of northern Semitic peoples including the Israelites; especially : israelite (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/israelite)
You can not claim that this, that and the other person is a Hebrew.

You have three definitions there in my post. Chew on them.
Ok then, there is your answer. The Hebrews came out of Egypt with Moses. But also other peoples were joined with them. And so what are these Hebrews and other peoples called, who are partakers in the religion of Judaism?

here they are again --

Hebrew:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hebrew
Main Entry:He·brew http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?hebrew01.wav=Hebrew%27%29)Pronunciation: \ˈhē-(ˌ)brü\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English Ebreu, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin Hebraeus, from Latin, adjective, from Greek Hebraios, from Aramaic ʽEbraiDate:13th century 1 a: the Semitic language of the ancient Hebrews (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hebrews) b: any of various later forms of this language 2: a member of or descendant from one of a group of northern Semitic peoples including the Israelites;
especially : israelite (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/israelite)

|
|
|
|
\/

Israelite:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/israelite
1Is·ra·el·ite http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?israel04.wav=Israelite%27%29)Pronunciation: \ˈiz-r(ē-)ə-ˌlīt\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English, from Late Latin Israelita, from Greek Israēlitēs, from IsraēlDate:14th century
: a descendant of the Hebrew patriarch Jacob; specifically : a native or inhabitant of the ancient northern kingdom of Israel (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/israel)

and a Jew is --
|
|
|
|
\/

Jew:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Jew
Main Entry:Jew http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?jew00001.wav=Jew%27%29)Pronunciation: \ˈjü\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French ju, jeu, from Latin Judaeus, from Greek Ioudaios, from Hebrew Yĕhūdhī, from Yĕhūdhāh Judah, Jewish kingdomDate:13th century 1 a: a member of the tribe of Judah b: israelite (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/israelite)2: a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century b.c. to the first century a.d.3: a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people4: one whose religion is Judaism

and don't try to dodge the very clear facts.

ShirChadash

19th June 2008, 10:23 PM

Ok then, there is your answer. The Hebrews came out of Egypt with Moses. But also other peoples were joined with them. And so what are these Hebrews and other peoples called, who are partakers in the religion of Judaism?
other people whose RELIGION IS Judaism and who are not Hebrews are... (drum-roll please) Jews. The definitions do not say "partakers" of Judaism, so put your spin away now, please.

And mind you, not everyone who believes Judaism has it "right", is a Jew, either. See the definition again for who is a Jew.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

19th June 2008, 10:37 PM

other people whose RELIGION IS Judaism and who are not Hebrews are... (drum-roll please) Jews. The definitions do not say "partakers" of Judaism, so put your spin away now, please.

And mind you, not everyone who believes Judaism has it "right", is a Jew, either. See the definition again for who is a Jew. I worded it that way because of the Hebrews who do not take part in Judaism. As for getting it right, (Judaism) thats a different subject.

ShirChadash

19th June 2008, 10:39 PM

I worded it that way because of the Hebrews who do not take part in Judaism. As for getting it right, (Judaism) thats a different subject.
;)

Belief alone does not make you a Jew. And being a Jew does not necessarily make you a Hebrew, Grasshoppah.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

19th June 2008, 10:42 PM

;)

Belief alone does not make you a Jew. And being a Jew does not necessarily make you a Hebrew, Grasshoppah. I agree.

ShirChadash

19th June 2008, 10:45 PM

I agree.Then just what is your assertion? Not all Jews are Hebrews -- and believe you me, messianics (Jew or gentile) are not necessarily Hebrews (and then by default Jews) either, but I do believe you are trying to make such a connection. The definitions are very clear, indeed... and I should think Merriam Webster has some idea what they are talking about.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

19th June 2008, 10:49 PM

Then just what is your assertion? Not all Jews are Hebrews -- and believe you me, messianics (Jew or gentile) are not necessarily Hebrews (and then by default Jews) either, but I do believe you are trying to make such a connection. The definitions are very clear, indeed... and I should think Merriam Webster has some idea what they are talking about. I was just nailing things down to the basics. To be picking on someones doctrine or personal relationship with God is another subject.

kivi

19th June 2008, 11:27 PM

Jaihare:

The tribe of Manassah has been found and is presently making aliyah to Israel. They would be very insulted if you told them they are not Jews. Basically, the usage of the word "Jew" is changed to mean anyone of the people of Israel.

kvi says: I agree with you, GT. The designation "Jew" in fact comes from the beginning of Galus when we were taken to Babylon. While all Tribes were represented in the exiles from the Southern Kingdom, since the majority were from the tribe of Judah, the gentiles in Babylon and later, Persia, just lumped us all together under the term "Jew'. As each gentile empire, in turn, controled us, the term "Jew' was just passed on from empire to empire. And we finally stopped fighting it. It's who we are. There are several terms in common usage, today: Jew, Hebrew, B'nai Israel. All perfectly aceptable. All of them refer to the known descendents of Avraham and all of the souls of these descendents were present at the Giving of The Torah, Matan Torah, and took the oath of alligence: "We will do and we will understand". Only gentiles who wish to confuse, embarass, put down, persecute, make sport of, humiliate, degradate Jews and Judaism use terms for us that deny these basic facts. So, making a distinction between Jew and Hebrew or Jew and B'nai Israel or any other way is an insult to us. It is the equivalant of the "N" word.

ShirChadash

19th June 2008, 11:37 PM

I was just nailing things down to the basics. To be picking on someones doctrine or personal relationship with God is another subject. Explain the basics to me, then, MTAA :) If you would.

And in what way am I picking on someone's doctrine or relationship?

kivi

19th June 2008, 11:37 PM

kivi says: Hebrew=Jew=B'nai Israel. There is no distinction between them.

Jew is what the gentiles call us, Hebrew is our langauge and B'nai Isael is our national affiliation. Now adays, they are used interchangably.

Well then, let me ask you this question. Who were the Hebrews? Were the Hebrews a race of people? Abraham was a Hebrew, and the semetic tribes came from him. Who came out of Egypt with Moses. Jews or Hebrews?

MichaelTheeArchAngel

19th June 2008, 11:42 PM

kvi says: I agree with you, GT. The designation "Jew" in fact comes from the beginning of Galus when we were taken to Babylon. While all Tribes were represented in the exiles from the Southern Kingdom, since the majority were from the tribe of Judah, the gentiles in Babylon and later, Persia, just lumped us all together under the term "Jew'. As each gentile empire, in turn, controled us, the term "Jew' was just passed on from empire to empire. And we finally stopped fighting it. It's who we are. There are several terms in common usage, today: Jew, Hebrew, B'nai Israel. All perfectly aceptable. All of them refer to the known descendents of Avraham and all of the souls of these descendents were present at the Giving of The Torah, Matan Torah, and took the oath of alligence: "We will do and we will understand". Only gentiles who wish to confuse, embarass, put down, persecute, make sport of, humiliate, degradate Jews and Judaism use terms for us that deny these basic facts. So, making a distinction between Jew and Hebrew or Jew and B'nai Israel or any other way is an insult to us. It is the equivalant of the "N" word. Before the 1800s Hebrews who did not practice Judaism found the term "JEW" offencive.

kivi

19th June 2008, 11:46 PM

kivi says: And wedre did you find that little piece of trivia and what does it have to do with our conversation?

Before the 1800s Hebrews who did not practice Judaism found the term "JEW" offencive.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

19th June 2008, 11:46 PM

GerTzedek

19th June 2008, 11:56 PM

kvi says: I agree with you, GT. The designation "Jew" in fact comes from the beginning of Galus when we were taken to Babylon. While all Tribes were represented in the exiles from the Southern Kingdom, since the majority were from the tribe of Judah, the gentiles in Babylon and later, Persia, just lumped us all together under the term "Jew'. As each gentile empire, in turn, controled us, the term "Jew' was just passed on from empire to empire. And we finally stopped fighting it. It's who we are. There are several terms in common usage, today: Jew, Hebrew, B'nai Israel. All perfectly aceptable. All of them refer to the known descendents of Avraham and all of the souls of these descendents were present at the Giving of The Torah, Matan Torah, and took the oath of alligence: "We will do and we will understand". Only gentiles who wish to confuse, embarass, put down, persecute, make sport of, humiliate, degradate Jews and Judaism use terms for us that deny these basic facts. So, making a distinction between Jew and Hebrew or Jew and B'nai Israel or any other way is an insult to us. It is the equivalant of the "N" word.

Yeppers. Basically in my experience, those who make this big hoopla about Jews being only those of Judah are usually the Two House people, who want to pretend that they are "The House of Israel." One of the strangest parts of the Two House movement is that at the same time they as gentiles lay this bizarre claim to being the "House of Israel," they still manage to denigrate the "House of Judah." It's one of the best examples that the heart of anti-Semitism is jealousy of a misunderstanding of "chosen people", because these folks pretend to be Jews while hating Jews.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

20th June 2008, 12:08 AM

Yeppers. Basically in my experience, those who make this big hoopla about Jews being only those of Judah are usually the Two House people, who want to pretend that they are "The House of Israel." One of the strangest parts of the Two House movement is that at the same time they as gentiles lay this bizarre claim to being the "House of Israel," they still manage to denigrate the "House of Judah." It's one of the best examples that the heart of anti-Semitism is jealousy of a misunderstanding of "chosen people", because these folks pretend to be Jews while hating Jews. I am of the 7 house party. Lol. You know, the seven thunders.

GerTzedek

20th June 2008, 12:10 AM

Before the 1800s Hebrews who did not practice Judaism found the term "JEW" offencive.
So??? Over time, connotations change. For example, at one time when the Anglican Church was going through its "Anglo-Catholic" movement, it began calling Catholics "Roman Catholics" to distinguish them from "Anglo-Catholics." You can bet it was derogatory. But today, it has lost its sting, and many Catholics themselves will refer to themselves as Roman Catholic. In the same respect, while "Jew" was once a term that outsiders used to refer to Israel, it has been adopted by Jews and is used with pride.

You have to deal with today's reality.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

20th June 2008, 12:22 AM

So??? Over time, connotations change. For example, at one time when the Anglican Church was going through its "Anglo-Catholic" movement, it began calling Catholics "Roman Catholics" to distinguish them from "Anglo-Catholics." You can bet it was derogatory. But today, it has lost its sting, and many Catholics themselves will refer to themselves as Roman Catholic. In the same respect, while "Jew" was once a term that outsiders used to refer to Israel, it has been adopted by Jews and is used with pride.

You have to deal with today's reality. Yes , I understand. But my point of view is in relationship to history and scripture. The basics.

kivi

20th June 2008, 01:50 AM

And so Kivi, what planet are you from?

kivi sas: Hey, you know me, I'm a member of a secret society. We have secert handshakes, we write secret letters in invisible ink, we plot strategies to take over the world. Watch out. the next place we're going to take over is your backyard.:clap::clap::clap: Look out side, you can see the 1st signs of our power, the crabgrass is getting lush and green and soon it will cover the entire patio. Well, I have to go, I have a lot of secret handshakes to make and secret letters to write with invisible ink. :cool::cool::cool:

jaihare

20th June 2008, 03:11 AM

i struggled to find a way of understanding the deity of Messiah until quite recently when i read a fantastic paper called 'memra and metatron'. In understanding the deity of Christ this has to be one of the best things i have ever read which goes any length to explaining this concept within the Jewish understanding of the shema.

if anyone wants a copy just pm me your email and i will send it to you.

Steve

p.s. it draws heavily on the targums and the Judaism's of pre and post second temple periods. it is by ariel ben-lyman and runs to 29 pages.
It's quite amazing that these opinion papers are never written based on the Bible. They are written as interpretations based on interpretations rather than on the written Word of God.

Jason

jaihare

20th June 2008, 03:20 AM

MichaelTheeArchAngel

20th June 2008, 08:30 AM

kivi sas: Hey, you know me, I'm a member of a secret society. We have secert handshakes, we write secret letters in invisible ink, we plot strategies to take over the world. Watch out. the next place we're going to take over is your backyard.:clap::clap::clap: Look out side, you can see the 1st signs of our power, the crabgrass is getting lush and green and soon it will cover the entire patio. Well, I have to go, I have a lot of secret handshakes to make and secret letters to write with invisible ink. :cool::cool::cool: Kivi, try your best to make some kind of positive contribution to this thread. Stop useing irrelevant discourse to high-jack the post.

ShirChadash

20th June 2008, 09:45 AM

^_^

Henaynei

20th June 2008, 10:06 AM

kivi says: Hey, you know me, I'm a member of a secret society. We have secret handshakes, we write secret letters in invisible ink, we plot strategies to take over the world. Watch out. the next place we're going to take over is your backyard.:clap::clap::clap: Look out side, you can see the 1st signs of our power, the crabgrass is getting lush and green and soon it will cover the entire patio. Well, I have to go, I have a lot of secret handshakes to make and secret letters to write with invisible ink. :cool::cool::cool: :D:D:thumbsup::D:D I knew a guy once, ST, who was VERY big into that whole secret society and handshake thing.... heck of a guy though ;):P

ShirChadash

20th June 2008, 10:37 AM

Torah613

20th June 2008, 11:09 AM

lol.

Yochanan

Talmidah

20th June 2008, 11:16 AM

Shir, you'll have to take the blood-oath first.

ShirChadash

20th June 2008, 11:28 AM

Shir, you'll have to take the blood-oath first.
over my dead tinfoil-hatted body.

Torah613

20th June 2008, 12:16 PM

don't forget you'll have to be able to tell us what the symbols on the back of the 1 sheckel note mean.

Yochanan

ShirChadash

20th June 2008, 12:27 PM

AHHHH! SO much to learn, so little time until TD-day.

Talmidah

20th June 2008, 12:29 PM

TD-Day? :scratch:

ShirChadash

20th June 2008, 12:33 PM

sure -- TD-Day. You know, Total Domination Day!

Oh... did I say that out loud? :sorry:

Talmidah

20th June 2008, 12:36 PM

sure -- TD-Day. You know, Total Domination Day! Ah of course. :doh: We usually try to keep that on the DL, you know...bad press and all.

Torah613

20th June 2008, 01:26 PM

also remember to keep all info about the elders of zion on the DL while your at it.

Yochanan

GerTzedek

20th June 2008, 03:14 PM

kivi sas: Hey, you know me, I'm a member of a secret society. We have secert handshakes, we write secret letters in invisible ink, we plot strategies to take over the world. Watch out. the next place we're going to take over is your backyard.:clap::clap::clap: Look out side, you can see the 1st signs of our power, the crabgrass is getting lush and green and soon it will cover the entire patio. Well, I have to go, I have a lot of secret handshakes to make and secret letters to write with invisible ink. :cool::cool::cool:
Was that YOU that sent me the package that had the smaller box inside the big box, and the even smaller box inside the small box, and the tiny box inside the smaller box, inside which was the note that said, Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin? Should I be checking it for invisible ink? I should have realized there was something strange when the UPS man had peyos and wore a black hat.

LittleLambofJesus

20th June 2008, 03:19 PM

Was that YOU that sent me the package that had the smaller box inside the big box, and the even smaller box inside the small box, and the tiny box inside the smaller box, inside which was the note that said, Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin? Should I be checking it for invisible ink? I should have realized there was something strange when the UPS man had peyos and wore a black hat.That reminds me. I had a view that the 2 things JESUS "could have" written into the dirt in Matt 8 "could" have been the first 2 things written in Daniel 5. Anyone think this is "feasible"? :wave:

http://christianforums.com/t4724863&page=4

John 8 and Jesus writing in the Dirt

John 8:6 This yet they said, trying Him, that they may be having to be accusing of Him. The yet Jesus down stooping, to the finger Wrote into the ground,
7 As yet they persisted asking Him. He up-bends and said toward them "The sinless-one of ye first the stone on her let be casting"!
8 And again down stooping He Wrote into the ground,

Daniel 5:24 In-then before-him being-sent the-fingertip, that of the-hand and-the-writing, the-this, being-signified
25 And this the writing/k@thab that being signified: 'Mene', Mene', T@qal , P@rac'.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

20th June 2008, 03:33 PM

TD-Day? :scratch: Did the Orthodox get board with this thread? Did you feel like you needed some fun time?:)

GerTzedek

20th June 2008, 03:58 PM

They're Jews out in space...
They're zooming around protecting the Hebrew race...

I think I need a chocolate break.

ShirChadash

20th June 2008, 05:20 PM

Did the Orthodox get board with this thread? Did you feel like you needed some fun time?:) Yep, board stiff ;) . Pretty much needed to lighten the atmosphere. Rejoice, Shabbat is on her way in! :)

ShirChadash

20th June 2008, 05:23 PM

LLOJ! LOL, the siggy is hilarious! ^_^

kivi

22nd June 2008, 12:51 AM

It's quite amazing that these opinion papers are never written based on the Bible. They are written as interpretations based on interpretations rather than on the written Word of God.

Jason

kivi says: Its just another part of the man-made aspect of the religion. All sort of people go out and start inventing stuff. All claim that they and they alone have the inside track about what G-d wants. Each claims that their particular interpertation is the only right one and all of the rest are wrong. That is why Christainity splinters into more and more different sects. And like all of the rest of Christianity, the Messianic group is also falling into the same trap. No one listens because everybody is preaching. And the fragmantation is running rampart. Just follow the other subforums about Orthodox Hebrew Christian and the like. All they do is argue and argue about this matter of ideology and that matter of doctrine. The center does not hold in Christianity.

kivi

22nd June 2008, 01:19 AM

Kivi, try your best to make some kind of positive contribution to this thread. Stop useing irrelevant discourse to high-jack the post.

kivi says: I am just pointing out that you have a very particular :P take on reality that everybody who deals with you should be aware of. IN the thread 'Converts to Judaism', posts 101, 117 and 120, you said what I have posted below. This tells us that you are a conspiracy obsessive :clap: and when called on it, you run to the moderators to pull you out of trouble of your own making. It is not who is hi-jacking this thread. What I am trying to do is protecting it from your 'thread-jacking':angel:. Anyhow, we all should be truthful as who we are and what we believe and I am trying to help you achieve that laudable goal. :cool:

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The reason Christianity is so fragmented or trampled upon in the world, is because of secret societies. If not for that, people would see the full bloom of scripture fulfilled.

&

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I find that people who do not believe that there is secret societies are fools or are members, or have close famliy members involved in such. Which one are you?

&
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I have better things to do than listen to people play stupid. Mods please close or delete this thread.

kivi

22nd June 2008, 01:32 AM

pssst. Kivi... (motions with hand) ovah heah!

If I am going to study under your tutelage, I am going to have to have that secret password and hand-shake, Buddy. Can ya teach it to me on the sly? :sorry: (looks about nervously to see who's watching)

:P:D^_^

kivi says: Oh, the handshake is easy ;). Take you right fist and hit the right fist, knuckle to knuckle, of the Jew standing in front of you. Don't worry, they will never catch on and if they do, maybe they'll take the hint. :D The password is equally secret, so I'll whisper it: [B]"Who is like You amoung the heavenly powers, HaShem?":clap::clap::clap::clap:

kivi

22nd June 2008, 01:40 AM

kivi says: Wouldn't that just be guessing:confused::confused::confused: Something made up out of the imagination of a human:confused::confused::confused: Doesn't Christianity get all upset about that and when it comes to Judaism, accuse the Rabbis of making up stuff like the Talmud:confused::confused::confused: Doesn't Christianity say that is wrong and proves that Judaism is not a G-d approved:thumbsup:spiritual system:confused::confused::confused: Any thoughts:confused::confused::confused:

That reminds me. I had a view that the 2 things JESUS "could have" written into the dirt in Matt 8 "could" have been the first 2 things written in Daniel 5. Anyone think this is "feasible"? :wave:

http://christianforums.com/t4724863&page=4

John 8 and Jesus writing in the Dirt

John 8:6 This yet they said, trying Him, that they may be having to be accusing of Him. The yet Jesus down stooping, to the finger Wrote into the ground,
7 As yet they persisted asking Him. He up-bends and said toward them "The sinless-one of ye first the stone on her let be casting"!
8 And again down stooping He Wrote into the ground,

Daniel 5:24 In-then before-him being-sent the-fingertip, that of the-hand and-the-writing, the-this, being-signified
25 And this the writing/k@thab that being signified: 'Mene', Mene', T@qal , P@rac'.

simchat_torah

22nd June 2008, 01:44 AM

lol, every time someone doesn't agree with MTAA he asks for the thread to close.

Michael, if you can't back up your conspiracy theories, leave them at home.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

22nd June 2008, 03:00 AM

lol, every time someone doesn't agree with MTAA he asks for the thread to close.

Michael, if you can't back up your conspiracy theories, leave them at home. I have the books that belong to secret societies in my possession. End of story. :cool:

MichaelTheeArchAngel

22nd June 2008, 03:08 AM

kivi says: I am just pointing out that you have a very particular :P take on reality that everybody who deals with you should be aware of. IN the thread 'Converts to Judaism', posts 101, 117 and 120, you said what I have posted below. This tells us that you are a conspiracy obsessive :clap: and when called on it, you run to the moderators to pull you out of trouble of your own making. It is not who is hi-jacking this thread. What I am trying to do is protecting it from your 'thread-jacking':angel:. Anyhow, we all should be truthful as who we are and what we believe and I am trying to help you achieve that laudable goal. :cool: Besides me mentioning it, you guys have brought up the subject a number of times. And still are. Are there secret societies in the world? Yes or No.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

22nd June 2008, 03:23 AM

I agree with you, seeing that there is only one God. Unfortunately orthodoxy=obstinacy.
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I agree with you, seeing that there is only one God. Unfortunately orthodoxy=obstinacy.
__________________
"The Mysteries of The Faith are not to be divulged to all... It is requisite to hide in a mystery the wisdom spoken." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata Book 12.

"The narratives of the Doctrine are its cloak. The simple look only at the garment-that is, upon the narrative of the doctrine; more they know not. The instructed however, see not merely the cloak, but what the cloak covers." The Zohar III., 152.

Some Orthodox Jews (Hebrews) inform me that the Orthodox have no secret societies in them. What are your thoughts on that.

kivi

22nd June 2008, 03:46 AM

Besides me mentioning it, you guys have brought up the subject a number of times. And still are. Are there secret societies in the world? Yes or No.

kivi says: We bring it up because you are obsessed by it and it always shows up, eventually, in your posts, completely throwing everything off track. Well, if there were secret societies, then we won't know about them, now, would we?????. The only secret society I know of is the Bush White House.

You claim that it was secret societies that cause the fragmentation of Christianity. Besides the "DaVinci Code'", got any proof:confused::confused::confused::confused:

kivi

22nd June 2008, 03:54 AM

Some Orthodox Jews (Hebrews) inform me that the Orthodox have no secret societies in them. What are your thoughts on that.

Well, besides the "Elders of Zion" which is hardly secret since it is the 2nd largest lobbying force in Washington [the 1st being the Big Oil Companies and Dick Cheney] and the Thursday Evening Ladies Mah Jong Club run out of the Silver Springs Jewish Community Center, I don't know of any.
^_^

ShirChadash

22nd June 2008, 10:02 AM

Well, besides the "Elders of Zion" which is hardly secret since it is the 2nd largest lobbying force in Washington [the 1st being the Big Oil Companies and Dick Cheney] and the Thursday Evening Ladies Mah Jong Club run out of the Silver Springs Jewish Community Center, I don't know of any.
^_^
rofl!:thumbsup:

ShirChadash

22nd June 2008, 10:04 AM

ChavaK

22nd June 2008, 10:08 AM

MichaelTheeArchAngel

22nd June 2008, 10:28 AM

kivi says: We bring it up because you are obsessed by it and it always shows up, eventually, in your posts, completely throwing everything off track. Well, if there were secret societies, then we won't know about them, now, would we?????. The only secret society I know of is the Bush White House.

You claim that it was secret societies that cause the fragmentation of Christianity. Besides the "DaVinci Code'", got any proof:confused::confused::confused::confused: I have lots of proof, I'm just not interested in discussing it for now. That would be good for some other thread.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

22nd June 2008, 10:37 AM

MTAA, none that I personally know of, no. LOL But since you keep harping on it, and by your own manner of reasoning then that must seem to indicate a personal experience and authority on the matter, I guess we can be very clear that you indeed are a member of several secret societies which have as their ultimate goal the undermining of Chr*tianity. Although I have spoken to many that are members of secret society, I myself am not a member of any, because I strongly disagree. I study many different things.

GerTzedek

22nd June 2008, 08:45 PM

I guess I am the only person here that is actually the member of a genuine secret society, although I'm sure I'd get kicked out if I ever write and tell them I'm becoming Jewish. When I was in college, I pledged a Christian Sorority, Alpha Delta Chi, which was very heavy into doing charitable works. The secrecy stuff was just silly stuff to make it fun. But of course, I'll NEVER TELL!

Oh my gosh, it was so long ago, I forget what it was I'm supposed to keep secret...

Thornicus

22nd June 2008, 09:35 PM

I'm becoming Jewish.

Why are you forsaking the Lord? :confused: :(

kivi

22nd June 2008, 09:49 PM

Don't forget the "kiddush club" that almost every Ortho shul has....

kivi says: Don't forget the international conspiracy of the Hebrew Free Loan Society, the Zionist Labor Federation of America, the JCC, Hadassah and the Men's Sunday morning minyon. To be found under every Jew's double twin size beds.

ShirChadash

22nd June 2008, 09:53 PM

:o

yanno, even *I* know not to mention all of those. Sheesh Kivi, whose side are you on, anyway.
kivi says: Don't forget the international conspiracy of the Hebrew Free Loan Society, the Zionist Labor Federation of America, the JCC, Hadassah and the Men's Sunday morning minyon. To be found under every Jew's double twin size beds.

GerTzedek

22nd June 2008, 10:15 PM

Why are you forsaking the Lord? :confused: :(
Weeeeelll, Thornicus, I just thought about spending eternity with your presumptuous rudeness, and decided I'd rather spend eternity with the Jews.

buttercup2000

22nd June 2008, 10:18 PM

Don't forget the Weight Watchers group of Boro Park. I understand they are perfecting a low-cal cholent, but it's top secret.

Thornicus

22nd June 2008, 10:56 PM

Weeeeelll, Thornicus, I just thought about spending eternity with your presumptuous rudeness, and decided I'd rather spend eternity with the Jews.

Actually, I was asking a sincere question.

What about Jesus?

kivi

22nd June 2008, 11:09 PM

kivis says: Yeah, that and your Buck Rogers secret decoder ring:o:bow:^_^.I have the books that belong to secret societies in my possession. End of story. :cool:

kivi

22nd June 2008, 11:19 PM

Weeeeelll, Thornicus, I just thought about spending eternity with your presumptuous rudeness, and decided I'd rather spend eternity with the Jews.

kivi says: :clap::clap::clap:

Thornicus

22nd June 2008, 11:33 PM

kivi

23rd June 2008, 12:28 AM

How is it rude to ask why someone who once professed to be a Christian, a believer that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, now believes that same Jesus was a false prophet and blasphemer? I think it is a valid question. Of course, I understand an apostate doesn't like to be questioned. I certainly didn't when I almost joined a cult. At the time there were demons oppressing me, and as we all know, the devil doesn't like answering to anyone. :(

kivi says: Apparently, from GT's answer, 'very rude', especially in the manner in which you asked it. Of course, you start with the assumption that for one to be Jewish, they have to hate Christainity. That is not necessary true. It could be, as it is in many people's experience, that the attraction of Judaism is so strong that it over-shines any affiliation to 'religion of record'. You may belong to one of the sects in Christainity that is exclusive. That is: If one does not believe as you do, one is going to Hell. Even nice people, as I assume Billy Graham is, can hold such bigoted opinions. How sad. Of course, Judaism is not that way. Judaism rejects that it has an exclusive relation with HaShem. Finally, maybe she outgrew the self centered attributes of Christianity, the obsessive concern on 'who is going to make it to heaven' & 'is it gong to be me????' Maybe she got the idea that Judaism is not about 'what's in it for me?', but 'what can I do for the love of G-d?' Of course, GT will have to answer for herself. She is very good at that. I can't wait for her answer.

Thornicus

23rd June 2008, 12:45 AM

That is: If one does not believe as you do, one is going to Hell.Those who reject Christ will most certainly burn in Hell. It is very sad, but nonetheless true. Our faith should be based on fact, not emotion. And the fact is, all have sinned and are deserving of Hell. However, God in His love has provided a Way to spend eternity with Him: Jesus Christ, the One of whom the prophets foretold. Salvation is very simple. Trust in Christ, and you'll be saved. Trust in yourself, or in a false god, and you'll burn in Hell for all eternity. I won't mince words - I will speak what the Bible says on the matter. And the Bible says there is NO salvation outside of Jesus Christ.

ChavaK

23rd June 2008, 01:42 AM

I understand they are perfecting a low-cal cholent, but it's top secret.

I will die a happy person if they perfect a low-cal cholent.....yummmmm.

ShirChadash

23rd June 2008, 01:55 AM

I won't mince words - I will speak what the Bible says on the matter. And the Bible says there is NO salvation outside of Jesus Christ.

1) how sad for you that you almost joined a cult, Thornicus!
2) how fortunate for Ger T. that Judaism is not a cult.
3) Judaism is based on fact -- Chri*tianity is based on emotion.
4) YOUR bible says the above, yes.

ShirChadash

23rd June 2008, 02:41 AM

That said, my intention is most certainly not to belittle your religion. i'm sorry but ^_^ that's just downright funny considering the rest of your post. And while ecumenism with Chr*tianity is not something I even think about one way or another, I feel that dialogue and common ground with Chr*tians certainly can be had nonetheless.

ChavaK

23rd June 2008, 03:15 AM

That said, my intention is most certainly not to belittle your religion.

Gee, you'd never know it...

I have a great deal of respect for Jews.
You've got a funny way of showing it.

kivi

23rd June 2008, 04:18 AM

Any faith contrary to the Bible (including the New Testament) is a cult.

kivi says: The plan of Christians like Thornicus has been clear from the very start, to demonize and marginalize and, eventually, destroy Judaism and the Jews.

For that reason, Judaism and every other 'ism' are indeed cults. And this idea that religious Jews are somehow our "brethren" is emotionalism, fantasy, and nonsense. Practicing Jews, whether Orthodox, Conservative, or Reformed are no more brethren to a Christian than a Muslim, Hindu, or even a Satanist for that matter. False religion is false religion. It spits in the face of the Lord Jesus Christ, who spilled His precious blood for our sins.

kivi says: This is the type of human we have to live with on a daily basis. A person who compares us and treats us like a Satanist. Less than human>>undermensch<<without rights or dignity. No wonder we are suspicious and fearful of Christians and Christianity. How many times do you have to get attacked by people calling themselves Chirstians before you start associating Christianity with the enemy. It is amazing to me that we keep forgiving Christianity for its abuses toward us. All I can do is remind us that sort of mentality turns good people into Camp guards and us into inmates.

I'm tired of "Christians" pretending that somehow religious Jews worship the true God. This is nonsense. That said, my intention is most certainly not to belittle your religion./quote]

kivi says: Do you think I am stupid? You just compared my religion and myself to Satanists. Of course, you disrespect Judaism, of course you belittle Judaism, of course, you trash Judaism. You can't spit in our face and expect us not to notice.

[quote]I have a great deal of respect for Jews. But ecumenism is beneficial to neither side, as I suspect you will agree.

kivi says: I really don't mind if you hate us, but I do mind that you treat us like we are fools. You have been very clear, you hate us and seek our destruction. Know that we notice.

Qalevra

23rd June 2008, 09:13 AM

Well, Thornicus, when you rant and rave about the evils of Judaism, calling us a cult, etc. and then politely try to make a statement that you're not trying to belittle us, you shouldn't be surprised if you're not taken seriously.

As for hell, it's clearly a Greco-Roman import into Christianity. Christianity's hell so resembles Tartarus that the two are almost indistinguishable. In fact, in 2 Peter 2:4, the Greek word ταρταρωσας is used for the word hell.

This reminds me of a joke I heard once:

A pagan dies and, to his great surprise, he finds himself standing before some pearly gates. He asks, "Where am I?"

Peter says, "You’re at the gates of heaven."

The pagan says, "But I don’t believe in heaven."

Peter frowns at him. "You’re one of those pagans, aren’t you? Well, since we don’t allow pagans in heaven, you have to go to hell. Sorry. Just follow that path that leads downward and to the left."

The pagan walks down to hell, where the gates are standing open. He walks in and finds beautiful meadows, happy animals, and clear streams of water.

He walks on in and begins exploring, and after a few minutes a courtly gentleman walks up to him and bows politely. "Hello, I’m Satan. You must be the guy that St. Peter phoned me about. Are you a pagan?"

"Yes, I am. What’s going to happen now?"

Satan says, "Well, the fishing’s pretty good, if you enjoy that sort of thing. There’s a little refreshment stand down the road. And I believe the pagan meeting grounds are right over the next hill."

Suddenly, a hole opens up in the sky above, and a yawning chasm opens directly underneath it. The stench of sulphur fills the air. Hundreds of screaming, tortured souls drop down into the flaming pit, which immediately closes up with a thud.

The pagan, hardly believing what he just saw, asks Satan, "And what was THAT???"

Satan rolls his eyes. "Oh, just ignore them. They're Christians; they wouldn't have it any other way."

LittleLambofJesus

23rd June 2008, 09:25 AM

kivi says: The plan of Christians like Thornicus has been clear from the very start, to demonize and marginalize and, eventually, destroy Judaism and the Jews.Hi kive. I believe a lot of Christianity fails to see most of the NT/NC in the Bible as written for and about the Jews/Israelites.
I found this interesting.

Exodus 22 exclaims about not suffering a "sorceress" to live. If you look at the greek word used for "pharisee" in the NC, it appears to be where the english word for "pharmacy" comes from, but I believe it is referring back to the hebrew word used in Exodus 7 and 22.

The Jewish/Hebrew book of revelation uses it as that word also. Pretty interesting. Thoughts? :wave:

Exodus 22:18 One being a Sorceress/03784 kashaph not thou shall let live. 19 Every of one-laying with a Beast/0929 b@hemah to death shall be put to death.[Exodus 7:11]

Matthew 12:14 And the Pharisees/far-isaioi <5330> having gone forth, held a consultation against him, how they might destroy Him

Revelation 9:21 And not they reform out of the murders of them, nor out from their Sorceries/far-makeiwn <5331> ,...........

5330. Pharisaios far-is-ah'-yos of Hebrew origin (compare 6567); a separatist, i.e. exclusively religious; a Pharisean, i.e. Jewish sectary:--Pharisee.

5331. pharmakeia far-mak-i'-ah from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft.

5328. Pharao far-ah-o' of foreign origin (6547); Pharao (i.e. Pharoh), an Egyptian king:--Pharaoh.
2447. ios ee-os' perhaps from eimi (to go) or hiemi (to send); rust (as if emitted by metals); also venom

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 10:22 AM

I'm just wondering if it is a typical Jewish teaching that Christians are not worshipping the same God. I have seen "idol" thrown around regarding who Christians worship. I know some Jews believe Christians are idol worshippers because they worship Yeshua, but what about God Himself?

I personally believe we all worship the same God.
Isn't the kicker that they believe that Trinitiarian Christians don't worship the same God (and are polytheistic) but that non-Trins are just thought to believe in the wrong/incorrect Messiah which is different? This is how I understood it.

Kris10leigh

23rd June 2008, 12:26 PM

Isn't the kicker that they believe that Trinitiarian Christians don't worship the same God (and are polytheistic) but that non-Trins are just thought to believe in the wrong/incorrect Messiah which is different? This is how I understood it.
Hi ERM! :wave:

You're coming in a bit late, and it can be hard to catch up. Basically the first few pages are a really good read, and it gets off track after a bit. The question was well answered at the beginning of the thread, if you are interested.

I gathered that yes, that is the general gist of it. I also got that this wasn't necessarlily taught to everyone and there are a couple different opinions on the matter, obviously.

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 12:31 PM

ah. well. anyone who claims salvation is only for them and those like them is missing the spirit of God's love... but this is just MHO (seeing some of the drivel coming out of people's mouths here, I think there are lots of those unfortunately).

as for who is and is not of God... I think I'd ask Him. But... what do I know, I'm only His child.

Henaynei

23rd June 2008, 12:40 PM

dear mods... the last 3 pages have been sidetracked away from the OP and might make another thread...? :scratch:

kivi

23rd June 2008, 01:27 PM

Isn't the kicker that they believe that Trinitiarian Christians don't worship the same God (and are polytheistic) but that non-Trins are just thought to believe in the wrong/incorrect Messiah which is different? This is how I understood it.

kivi says: Unfortunately, you are mistaken. It is that type of erroneous information about Judaism that causes so many of the problems that Jews and Christians have with each other. The facts of the matter are: The Trinity and the demi god nature of Jesus Christ makes it hard for Judaism to accept Christianity as a monotheistic religion. Heck, even Christianity has a hard time with it and in the end, just throws its hands up and says: "Its a mystery!" However, the long term [over 1000 years] consensus in Judaism concerning Christianity is that Christianity DOES meet the standards of the Noachite Commandments and it is a monotheistic religion.

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 01:31 PM

um. I got that from the mouth of Jews... but sure...

kivi

23rd June 2008, 01:41 PM

kivi says: "All of Bnai Israel and the Righteous of the Nations have a protion in Olam habah [the World to Come]."

Right acting members of Islam and Christianity fall within the category of Rigtheous of the Nations. Judaism is, in effect, a universalistic religion because everybody in the Universe is included in its scope, Jew and non-Jew, alike. However, Judaism is NOT an exclusive spiritual system because all humans whether Jewish or non-Jewish are included in its system of 'salvation', in this world and in the next. And since Judaism does not have a Forever Hell, either for Jews or non-Jews, it is also a religion that is, in effect, believes in universal salvation. This is unlike Christianity, for example, because Christianity does claim to be exclusive, that is, only Christians can 'go to Heaven'.

ah. well. anyone who claims salvation is only for them and those like them is missing the spirit of God's love... but this is just MHO (seeing some of the drivel coming out of people's mouths here, I think there are lots of those unfortunately).

as for who is and is not of God... I think I'd ask Him. But... what do I know, I'm only His child.

kivi

23rd June 2008, 01:52 PM

um. I got that from the mouth of Jews... but sure...

kivi says: Hi there. :):):) There are a lot of reputuable sources out there in InterNetLand for you to double check.:thumbsup: Unfortunately, here in UT, a lot of the posters are still on their own spiritual journey concerning Judaism and still have a lot to learn. So, while they are of good intention, they are sometimes not so good on the facts.:confused: Three sites that I promise will give you the straight goods are OU.org :clap:[Union of Orthodox Rabbis, famed as the largest organizaton for certifying kosher food], Aish.com :clap:[great site for history] and Torah.org:clap: [good for general questions about Judaism]. These sites are NOT anti missionary sites, but rather, are the sites of three of the biggest modern Orthodox oganizations that do a lot of community service, education and pro Israeli work. If you want to double check anything said in UT and/or CF about about Judaism, these three sites are the place to go: emes.:) They also have a 'Ask the Rabbi' section for individual questions.:cool:

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 01:53 PM

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 01:59 PM

kivi says: Hi there. :):):) There are a lot of reputuable sources out there in InterNetLand for you to double check.:thumbsup: Unfortunately, here in UT, a lot of the posters are still on their own spiritual journey concerning Judaism and still have a lot to learn. So, while they are of good intention, they are sometimes not so good on the facts.:confused: Three sites that I promise will give you the straight goods are OU.org :clap:[Union of Orthodox Rabbis, famed as the largest organizaton for certifying kosher food], Aish.com :clap:[great site for history] and Torah.org:clap: [good for general questions about Judaism]. These sites are NOT anti missionary sites, but rather, are the sites of three of the biggest modern Orthodox oganizations that do a lot of community service, education and pro Israeli work. If you want to double check anything said in UT and/or CF about about Judaism, these three sites are the place to go: emes.:) They also have a 'Ask the Rabbi' section for individual questions.:cool:
i asked on another site dedicated to Jewish ideas.

generally web sites can tell you generalizations but not the beliefs of individual members of a religion. somehow there is something lost in translation.

Torah613

23rd June 2008, 02:01 PM

Why are you forsaking the Lord? :confused: :(

Umm no, she is turning to HaShem.

Yochanan

LittleLambofJesus

23rd June 2008, 02:04 PM

dear mods... the last 3 pages have been sidetracked away from the OP and might make another thread...? :scratch:I had to go back to see what the original OP was :D

Original OP: "I'm just wondering if it is a typical Jewish teaching that Christians are not worshipping the same God. I have seen "idol" thrown around regarding who Christians worship. I know some Jews believe Christians are idol worshippers because they worship Yeshua, but what about God Himself?

I personally believe we all worship the same God".

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear-thou Yisra'el--YHWH, Elohiym of us, YHWH one. [Mark 12:29]

Mark 12:29 The yet JESUS answered him "that first of all the commandments 'be thou hearing! Israel-- Lord, the God of us, Lord one is'". [Exodus 6:4]

Textus Rec.) Mark 12:29 o de ihsouV apekriqh autw oti prwth paswn twn entolwn akoue israhl kurioV o qeoV hmwn kurioV eiV estin

Torah613

23rd June 2008, 02:19 PM

kivi says: Hi there. :):):) There are a lot of reputuable sources out there in InterNetLand for you to double check.:thumbsup: Unfortunately, here in UT, a lot of the posters are still on their own spiritual journey concerning Judaism and still have a lot to learn. So, while they are of good intention, they are sometimes not so good on the facts.:confused: Three sites that I promise will give you the straight goods are OU.org :clap:[Union of Orthodox Rabbis, famed as the largest organizaton for certifying kosher food], Aish.com :clap:[great site for history] and Torah.org:clap: [good for general questions about Judaism]. These sites are NOT anti missionary sites, but rather, are the sites of three of the biggest modern Orthodox oganizations that do a lot of community service, education and pro Israeli work. If you want to double check anything said in UT and/or CF about about Judaism, these three sites are the place to go: emes.:) They also have a 'Ask the Rabbi' section for individual questions.:cool:

I would disagree, as do many others that I know within frum soceity.

Yochanan

kivi

23rd June 2008, 02:27 PM

salvation to me does not equate some stupid burning pit. sorry. not everyone comes in the same flavors in christianity.

believe me, I understand Bnei Noach. It's not that hard. The difficult part is whether Trinitarian Christianity is monotheism. Many people do not consider it such. To be under the Laws of Noah you MUST be monotheistic and worship the One True God.

kivi says: Well, I gave you the answer and I gave a series of Orthodox sites for you to double check. There is not much more I can do, unless you have a suggestion.:amen:

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 02:38 PM

I wasn't seeking commentary, but responding with commentary to a friend of mine. Believe me, I'm a good study on my own. Thx.

kivi

23rd June 2008, 02:40 PM

i asked on JHR.

generally web sites can tell you generalizations but not the beliefs of individual members of a religion. somehow there is something lost in translation.

kivi says: And, Judaism has its own difficulties in understanding it. When it comes to 'belief', outside the idea that G-d is ONE and ONLY and Torah is His instruction manual/direction guide for Jews, we don't get too uptight about belief, we let the edges remain pretty fuzzy. We demand/enforce uniformity of action, not belief. After all, we are running a Nation. One Law, One Nation, One people. Even the Rambam's 13 principles have a great number of commentators not too happy. And, one by one, Jews are allowed a great deal of latitude. So, if you are looking for individual beliefs, then you'll get a lot of different takes on the matter, though, if you look, all variations on the same theme. However, the offical Judaism stand on Chirstianity and monotheism is that the Christianity meets the standards of the Torah of Noach and, as such, is monotheistic. But, also to honest, it does so by the width of a camel's hair. And because the Rabbis wanted it that way, after all, we have to live with you. And it is tough enough as it is without making it even more difficult on our part.

kivi

23rd June 2008, 02:45 PM

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 02:46 PM

Torah613

23rd June 2008, 02:56 PM

this is an issue where there is divided opinion. My personal opinion is that Chr*stianity and I*lam may or may not in fact be monotheistic, but they do not worship the G-d of Israel. However, they are essentially good things as they have introduced the majority of non-Jewish humanity to the concepts of monotheism.

Yochanan

Torah613

23rd June 2008, 02:58 PM

kivi says: Hi there:). What do you disagree with and how do you suggest that I do a better job of answering the question posed?:):):):) This is a sincere question on my part because in these matters, I want to do the best job that I can.:):):)

Oh, I am simply stating that my opinion differs, as does that of others in frum soceity that I know.

In this, as in most things, there are more than one acceptable opinion. After all, the old saying goes, 3 Jews=4 opinions.

Yochanan

Qalevra

23rd June 2008, 02:58 PM

but there is no more one law than there is in Christianity. That's why there's orthodox judaism, modern orthodox, haredi, hasidic, conservative, reform, reconstructionist, jewish renewal and humanistic judaism...

It's the same law, but different observances. As a Conservative, I follow the same Torah as the Orthodox, Reform, etc., however, it is the practice of our observance that varies.

I didn't realize it was hard to deal with those you are to be a light to...maybe I don't understand what that is supposed to mean to you (which I'll openly say I might not understand). Sure, proselytizing christians are a pain in the butt. I'm a christian and even I think that. But that's not all of us.

As you well know, over the course of history, and in the grand scheme of things, proselytising Christians are among the more tame issues that Jews have had to deal with when dealing with Christians. Jews were already being tortured, maimed and killed at the hands of anti-Semitic Christians; could you imagine the outrage had Jews thrown, as a whole, the label of "idolater" upon Christians? I think that is the point kivi is trying to make.

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 03:03 PM

right... this is why I used this to relate to Christianity. We have different practice and interpretation of what everything means. We use the same bible, but we do not find the same information, much like you guys. It is the interpretation of what it means that varies.

and you guys are preaching to the choir on the anti-semitic thing. you KNOW I do not feel that way. You also know I am a christian. (a term which I am learning to hate because of the stereotypical things thrown at me like some of the things in this thread - not directed at you Q).

diminishing my religion to a "feeling" is just as demeaning IMO as yours being diminished to idolatry. KWIM? yours is way more, and so is mine.

kivi

23rd June 2008, 03:11 PM

but there is no more one law than there is in Christianity. That's why there's orthodox judaism, modern orthodox, haredi, hasidic, conservative, reform, reconstructionist, jewish renewal and humanistic judaism... not to mention others. Some abandon Talmud completely... that's hardly any more a variation on the same theme than Christian denoms (or Messianic Judaism from Judaism for that matter).

kivi says: I try to be clear that I am speaking from the position of the Torah True Tradition, refered to by some as Orthodox/Obsrvant. And on this issue, we would be the ones with the most difficulty. The rest of the 'flavors' you referred to would have a lot less problems with accepting Christianity as monotheistic.

kivi: And because the Rabbis wanted it that way, after all, we have to live with you. And it is tough enough as it is without making it even more difficult on our part.

ERM then said: I didn't realize it was hard to deal with those you are to be a light to... maybe I don't understand what that is supposed to mean to you (which I'll openly say I might not understand). Sure, proselytizing christians are a pain in the butt. I'm a christian and even I think that. But that's not all of us.

kivi says: I would 1st start out with a flippant remark: "Ever been a teacher in a bad neighborhood?"

2nd: we are forbidden to proselytize. We just don't do it. One Herod is enough. I was there at the beginning of the 1st Noachite efforts in the late 70's. It was all non-Jewish driven. The Rabbis involved were nervous and resistant. If the congregation that I dealt with [from the Jewish end] hadn't pushed and pushed and pushed, nothing would have come of it.

3nd: What does it mean to be a 'light'?

My take, which is I think is a good variation on the standard Jewish take. IN the 1800's, coal mines wre extremely dangerous, especially from methane explosions, a naturally occuring poisonous gas found in coal mines. To warn themselves, miners would take canaries in cages into the mines and leave the canaries in the cages on the floors of the shafts. of course, the cages were loocked so all the canaries could do is wait to die. Methane, being heavier than air, if present, would pool on the floors of the shafts. The canaries would die. The miners would be warned and they would leave and re-ventilate the effected shaft. We are your canaries. When the Jews start dieing, the sociey you have set up is dangerous to all humans. We are your early warning system. The Torah is the strict and demanding spiritual training method set up by G-d so that we stay in the cage, voluntarily. Unlike the canaries who were trapped, in our case, the caged door is unlocked and we can assimulate and escape the cage. That we do not do that is due to the incredible spiritual discipline of Torah. So, if we are a 'light', it is from the glow of the crematoriums.

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 03:18 PM

you just said one could not choose to be a Jew... how can one escape the canary/coal mine cage if one has no choice? (not clear)

kivi

23rd June 2008, 03:30 PM

Oh, I am simply stating that my opinion differs, as does that of others in frum soceity that I know.

In this, as in most things, there are more than one acceptable opinion. After all, the old saying goes, 3 Jews=4 opinions.

Yochanan

kivi says: Well, I am not buying the 'three Jews, four opinions' stuff:P. We allow a great deal of fuzziness on belief, but we don't allow it on action. If Christianity and Islam were not monotheistic, then we couldn't do buiness with them or have the normal type of communal, political and social intercourse that we do have with them. There are very practical outcomes to this matter that you can see, in your life, were Judaism comes down: Christianity and Islam are not polytheitic and meet the standards of the Noachite Mitzvahs.:amen:

As for who is worshipping who:confused:? G-d is universal, & we accept, in effect, universal salvation. Since that is coming from G-d, then He must be OK with it. Of course, there are different takes between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. But it is pretty obvious that Islam and Christianity are trying to do the best they can with the G-d of Avraham. I have no problem with the 'same G-d'. I think the ides should be encouraged. And, to the best of my study, neither does Judaism. If you have some opinions that differ, then I would love to read/study them. Being a frume, myself, I know how we kevetch after schul. :thumbsup: I am not talknig about that. I am talking about 'official' Jewish/Torah 'takes' on the matter.:wave:

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 03:34 PM

really, there's not been much choice on social, political, etc. until the reformation of Israel, has there?

kivi

23rd June 2008, 03:38 PM

you just said one could not choose to be a Jew... how can one escape the canary/coal mine cage if one has no choice? (not clear)

kivi says: It is easy to escape. One is born a canary and put in the cage. But the cage door is unlocked. So you escape. YOU try to act as if you aren't a canary. You start acting and eating and dressing like the non-canaries. You 'pass'. You join non-canary country clubs, you go to non-canary resorts. You use a non-canary name. You attend a non-canary church. If you are already married to a canary, you send your childern to non-canary private schools, and if you aren't married to a canary, you marry a non-canary and if you are a man, your children are not canaries. Canaries have been escaping for 3000 years. The whole Northern Kingdom escaped. Where do you think all the Jews have gone to? There are 14 million of us. Were did all the rest go???

kivi

23rd June 2008, 03:42 PM

really, there's not been much choice on social, political, etc. until the reformation of Israel, has there?

kivi says: To be honest, I am not quite sure what you mean. For me, your 'one-liners' without a refering quote or more elaborate explaination are difficult to understand/to follow. Maybe you will provide a commentary? :cool:

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 03:51 PM

you have not had much choice to deal with us as you referenced in your earlier post. it was not something the Jewish people could choose not to do and still function.

GerTzedek

23rd June 2008, 03:52 PM

Actually, I was asking a sincere question.

What about Jesus?

Actually, you asked why I was forsaking the Lord. I have one Lord, and that is G-d. He is the same G-d I have loved, worshipped, obeyed, and served all my life. What has changed is that I no longer need to call him JC. It is G-d who is my King, my Redeemer, my Savior, my Rock, my Shelter. I need no intermediary. He does not desire human sacrifice. He desires my broken heart and contrite spirit, my obedience, my life.

Basically I have the same problem with you that I have with Yochanon. Each of you presumes to tell me whom I have worshipped. Yochanon wants to tell me that when I was Christian, I was not worshipping the same G-d I worship now. You want to say I no longer worship now the same G-d I worshipped before. I am here to say there has been no change. I know in Whom I put my faith. I know Whom I fear. I know Whom I love. It is He of Whom Pascal said, "Not the G-d of the Philosophers, but the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, a fire..."

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 03:56 PM

kivi says: It is easy to escape. One is born a canary and put in the cage. But the cage door is unlocked. So you escape. YOU try to act as if you aren't a canary. You start acting and eating and dressing like the non-canaries. You 'pass'. You join non-canary country clubs, you go to non-canary resorts. You use a non-canary name. You attend a non-canary church. If you are already married to a canary, you send your childern to non-canary private schools, and if you aren't married to a canary, you marry a non-canary and if you are a man, your children are not canaries. Canaries have been escaping for 3000 years. The whole Northern Kingdom escaped. Where do you think all the Jews have gone to? There are 14 million of us. Were did all the rest go???
well, no offense, some of you were needlessly killed (lots of you) in WWII.

as for people choosing not to follow who they are, this is the EXACT same thing for Christians, but for some reason you and I can't seem to share this idea. The being made different upon conversion is the same for a Christian as it is for a ger tzedek in Judaism.

HalcyonFire

23rd June 2008, 03:59 PM

kivi

23rd June 2008, 04:24 PM

you have not had much choice to deal with us as you referenced in your earlier post. it was not something the Jewish people could choose not to do and still function.

kivi says: Exactly, it is who we are.

Kris10leigh

23rd June 2008, 04:33 PM

Torah613

23rd June 2008, 05:25 PM

kivi says: Well, I am not buying the 'three Jews, four opinions' stuff:P. We allow a great deal of fuzziness on belief, but we don't allow it on action. If Christianity and Islam were not monotheistic, then we couldn't do buiness with them or have the normal type of communal, political and social intercourse that we do have with them. There are very practical outcomes to this matter that you can see, in your life, were Judaism comes down: Christianity and Islam are not polytheitic and meet the standards of the Noachite Mitzvahs.:amen:

As for who is worshipping who:confused:? G-d is universal, & we accept, in effect, universal salvation. Since that is coming from G-d, then He must be OK with it. Of course, there are different takes between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. But it is pretty obvious that Islam and Christianity are trying to do the best they can with the G-d of Avraham. I have no problem with the 'same G-d'. I think the ides should be encouraged. And, to the best of my study, neither does Judaism. If you have some opinions that differ, then I would love to read/study them. Being a frume, myself, I know how we kevetch after schul. :thumbsup: I am not talknig about that. I am talking about 'official' Jewish/Torah 'takes' on the matter.:wave:

Kivi, my position is that of Rav Singer. It is pretty common among chasidim (at least the ones I know) to hold the position that I describe. Also, the position I described can be found in the writings of the RaMbaM, in particular the book "Laws Of Kings and Their Wars" if I recall correctly.

To be fair, the Lubbavitcher Rebbe also held the position you describe. So, like I said, our sages do not fully agree on the matter.

Yochanan

Torah613

23rd June 2008, 05:47 PM

Actually, you asked why I was forsaking the Lord. I have one Lord, and that is G-d. He is the same G-d I have loved, worshipped, obeyed, and served all my life. What has changed is that I no longer need to call him JC. It is G-d who is my King, my Redeemer, my Savior, my Rock, my Shelter. I need no intermediary. He does not desire human sacrifice. He desires my broken heart and contrite spirit, my obedience, my life.

Basically I have the same problem with you that I have with Yochanon. Each of you presumes to tell me whom I have worshipped. Yochanon wants to tell me that when I was Christian, I was not worshipping the same G-d I worship now. You want to say I no longer worship now the same G-d I worshipped before. I am here to say there has been no change. I know in Whom I put my faith. I know Whom I fear. I know Whom I love. It is He of Whom Pascal said, "Not the G-d of the Philosophers, but the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, a fire..."

Ger: first of all, I would never judge an individual. I am not a rabbi, and therefore not qualified to sit on a bet din. So it is possible that you were merely confused due to what you had been taught.

What is more likely is that you believed you worshiped the G-d of B'nai Yisrail, but were actually not. In either of these cases you were acting in a state of oness and would therefore not be responsible for worshiping a different G-d.

I want to state this very clearly, and I do mean very clearly; in what I am about to say I am not attacking you nor any other individual person. It is theoretically impossible for the god of the Chr*stians and the G-d of Isreal to be one and the same. This is the majority position of hte sages. Chr*stianity was deemed a theoretically monotheistic religion, although it was recognized to not be one in practice. However, nearly all frum rabbanim (even many chabadniks) agree that being a chr*stian or a muslim does not fulfill the noachide laws. This was also the practice in ancient times. To be a noachide you attend shul with klal yisrail, you daven from a siddur (they are working now on compiling one especially for b'nai noach), and you worship HaShem--the G-d of Isreal in Jewish community with Jewish prayers.

So, like I said you were probably not deliberately worshipping a different G-d, but you were all the same. I find it hard to believe that any Rabbi would convert you if you did not hold this position. this is the general position in frum society. The minority position is that you were deeply confused. However in either case you would be required by the bet din to remove all vestiges, even in thought, of your prior life.

Yochanan

GerTzedek

23rd June 2008, 06:17 PM

The rabbi converting me knows exactly my perception. It is not an issue for him. It's probably better if we both just back off on this.

kivi

23rd June 2008, 06:52 PM

Kivi, my position is that of Rav Singer. It is pretty common among chasidim (at least the ones I know) to hold the position that I describe. Also, the position I described can be found in the writings of the RaMbaM, in particular the book "Laws Of Kings and Their Wars" if I recall correctly.

To be fair, the Lubbavitcher Rebbe also held the position you describe. So, like I said, our sages do not fully agree on the matter.

Yochanan

kivi says: That funny, because based on my knowledge of R' Singer, I would think that R' Singer would disgree with you. You will notice that the position I am presenting is based on the practical Halachic aspect of living and working with Christians. Since we are coming at this from different directions, maybe we are in agreement or not. I am going to back off. This is best discussed in a more Jewish setting. :)

Steve Petersen

23rd June 2008, 09:32 PM

I want to state this very clearly, and I do mean very clearly; in what I am about to say I am not attacking you nor any other individual person. It is theoretically impossible for the god of the Chr*stians and the G-d of Isreal to be one and the same. This is the majority position of hte sages. Chr*stianity was deemed a theoretically monotheistic religion, although it was recognized to not be one in practice. However, nearly all frum rabbanim (even many chabadniks) agree that being a chr*stian or a muslim does not fulfill the noachide laws. This was also the practice in ancient times. To be a noachide you attend shul with klal yisrail, you daven from a siddur (they are working now on compiling one especially for b'nai noach), and you worship HaShem--the G-d of Isreal in Jewish community with Jewish prayers. Yochanan

I hope Christians and Messianics are paying attention to your words here.

Christian faith is not acceptable to Judaism. You must renounce your faith in Jesus, His Divinity, and all your Christian ritual and attend synagogue and use Jewish liturgy.

No middle ground, from either side.

The essence of intolerance.

Qalevra

23rd June 2008, 09:55 PM

First, Steve, you apparently misunderstand the essence of noachide laws and Judaism far too much to be casting judgment. Yes, Christian faith is not acceptable to Judaism. So what? If you want to be a Jew or a noachide, you do indeed need to renounce Jesus, his "divinity", Christian rituals, attend synagogue, and while some may or may not agree in Jewish circles regarding noachide participation in this; daven from a siddur. If you don't like that, you don't have to be a Jew or a noachide. It doesn't seem that difficult to understand. No one is threatening eternal damnation here. At least, we aren't.

The essence of intolerance.Talk about throwing stones in glass houses. Your god is the essence of intolerance, "Believe in me or burn and suffer for all eternity in hell!"

GerTzedek

23rd June 2008, 09:58 PM

I hope Christians and Messianics are paying attention to your words here.

Christian faith is not acceptable to Judaism. You must renounce your faith in Jesus, His Divinity, and all your Christian ritual and attend synagogue and use Jewish liturgy.

No middle ground, from either side.

The essence of intolerance.

There is no possible way that you could read this thread and conclud that Torah613's views are the consensus of Orthodox Judaism. Therefore not only is your entire post an erring sweeping generalization, but your final concluding comment is slander. Please edit your remarks. As soon as you bump your post I will bump this post as well.

Talmidah

23rd June 2008, 10:22 PM

I hope Christians and Messianics are paying attention to your words here.

Christian faith is not acceptable to Judaism. You must renounce your faith in Jesus, His Divinity, and all your Christian ritual and attend synagogue and use Jewish liturgy.

No middle ground, from either side.There is no possible way that you could read this thread and conclud that Torah613's views are the consensus of Orthodox Judaism. Therefore not only is your entire post an erring sweeping generalization, but your final concluding comment is slander. Please edit your remarks. As soon as you bump your post I will bump this post as well.

I'm confused. So are you saying that Christian faith is acceptable to Judaism and that you do not have to renounce your faith in Jsus to be accepted as a Jew?

Lulav

23rd June 2008, 10:32 PM

MichaelTheeArchAngel

23rd June 2008, 11:01 PM

Ger: first of all, I would never judge an individual. I am not a rabbi, and therefore not qualified to sit on a bet din. So it is possible that you were merely confused due to what you had been taught.

What is more likely is that you believed you worshiped the G-d of B'nai Yisrail, but were actually not. In either of these cases you were acting in a state of oness and would therefore not be responsible for worshiping a different G-d.

I want to state this very clearly, and I do mean very clearly; in what I am about to say I am not attacking you nor any other individual person. It is theoretically impossible for the god of the Chr*stians and the G-d of Isreal to be one and the same. This is the majority position of hte sages. Chr*stianity was deemed a theoretically monotheistic religion, although it was recognized to not be one in practice. However, nearly all frum rabbanim (even many chabadniks) agree that being a chr*stian or a muslim does not fulfill the noachide laws. This was also the practice in ancient times. To be a noachide you attend shul with klal yisrail, you daven from a siddur (they are working now on compiling one especially for b'nai noach), and you worship HaShem--the G-d of Isreal in Jewish community with Jewish prayers.

So, like I said you were probably not deliberately worshipping a different G-d, but you were all the same. I find it hard to believe that any Rabbi would convert you if you did not hold this position. this is the general position in frum society. The minority position is that you were deeply confused. However in either case you would be required by the bet din to remove all vestiges, even in thought, of your prior life.

Yochanan The names of our God is Yahwah, Elohiym, Holy Spirit, and Holy Father. What is your God's name?

ChavaK

23rd June 2008, 11:08 PM

The rabbi converting me knows exactly my perception. It is not an issue for him. It's probably better if we both just back off on this.

??? What are we talking about here? :confused:

LittleLambofJesus

23rd June 2008, 11:29 PM

The names of our God is Yahwah, Elohiym, Holy Spirit, and Holy Father. What is your God's name?The great "I AM" :confused:

Exodus 3:12 And He is saying: "That I Shall Be/01961 hayah with thee, and this for thee the-Sign that I sent thee in to bring forth you the people out of Egypt. Ye shall serve The-'Elohiym on the Mountain, the-this.'
13And- Mosheh -is-saying to The-'Elohiym, "Lo, I coming to sons of Yisra'el, and I say to them, 'Elohiym of your fathers He sends me to you'. And they have said to me, 'What Name of Him'? What shall I say to them"?
And 'Elohiym is saying to Mosheh, "I-shall-be/01961 hayah who I-shall-be/01961 hayah". And-He saying "Thus you shall say to sons of Yisra'el, 'I-shall-be/01961 hayah, He-sent-me unto-you'".

John 8:57 Said then the Judeans towards Him, "Fifty years, not as-yet thou are having, and Abraham thou has seen?"
58 Said to them Jesus "Verily, verily, I am saying to ye, before Abraham's to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635) --I Am";

01961 hayah {haw-yaw} a primitive root [compare 01933]; TWOT - 491; v
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out 1a) (Qal) 1a1) ----- \7 1a1a)

1096. ginomai a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--

MichaelTheeArchAngel

23rd June 2008, 11:34 PM

The great "I AM" :confused:

Exodus 3:12 And He is saying: "That I Shall Be/01961 hayah with thee, and this for thee the-Sign that I sent thee in to bring forth you the people out of Egypt. Ye shall serve The-'Elohiym on the Mountain, the-this.'
13And- Mosheh -is-saying to The-'Elohiym, "Lo, I coming to sons of Yisra'el, and I say to them, 'Elohiym of your fathers He sends me to you'. And they have said to me, 'What Name of Him'? What shall I say to them"?
And 'Elohiym is saying to Mosheh, "I-shall-be/01961 hayah who I-shall-be/01961 hayah". And-He saying "Thus you shall say to sons of Yisra'el, 'I-shall-be/01961 hayah, He-sent-me unto-you'".

John 8:57 Said then the Judeans towards Him, "Fifty years, not as-yet thou are having, and Abraham thou has seen?"
58 Said to them Jesus "Verily, verily, I am saying to ye, before Abraham's to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635) --I Am";

01961 hayah {haw-yaw} a primitive root [compare 01933]; TWOT - 491; v
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out 1a) (Qal) 1a1) ----- \7 1a1a)

1096. ginomai a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):-- I did not want to enclude all of them. Just the most used ones. Yah = Life or Living. Wah = Happened or began.

ShirChadash

24th June 2008, 12:02 AM

There is no possible way that you could read this thread and conclud that Torah613's views are the consensus of Orthodox Judaism. Therefore not only is your entire post an erring sweeping generalization, but your final concluding comment is slander. Please edit your remarks. As soon as you bump your post I will bump this post as well.
:o

Steve's comments are right on.

Talmidah

24th June 2008, 12:15 AM

MichaelTheeArchAngel

24th June 2008, 01:01 AM

Exactly! :thumbsup: Originally Posted by Steve Petersen
I hope Christians and Messianics are paying attention to your words here.

Christian faith is not acceptable to Judaism. You must renounce your faith in Jesus, His Divinity, and all your Christian ritual and attend synagogue and use Jewish liturgy.

No middle ground, from either side. I can forsee that becoming a very big problem. I was hopeing that I did not understand some scriptures. But it seems that I did really know. I just did not want to believe them. What a shame that things have to be the way they are going to be.

HalcyonFire

24th June 2008, 08:10 AM

I hope Christians and Messianics are paying attention to your words here.

Christian faith is not acceptable to Judaism. You must renounce your faith in Jesus, His Divinity, and all your Christian ritual and attend synagogue and use Jewish liturgy.

No middle ground, from either side.

The essence of intolerance.
no you don't. I'm quite well accepted among my Jewish friends and no one hs ever asked me to renounce anything. Jews do not promote conversion so the idea of them requiring attendance at synagogue and use of Jewish liturgy is silly.

Henaynei

24th June 2008, 08:39 AM

I had to go back to see what the original OP was :D

Original OP: "I'm just wondering if it is a typical Jewish teaching that Christians are not worshipping the same God. I have seen "idol" thrown around regarding who Christians worship. I know some Jews believe Christians are idol worshippers because they worship Yeshua, but what about God Himself?

I personally believe we all worship the same God".

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear-thou Yisra'el--YHWH, Elohiym of us, YHWH one. [Mark 12:29]

Mark 12:29 The yet JESUS answered him "that first of all the commandments 'be thou hearing! Israel-- Lord, the God of us, Lord one is'". [Exodus 6:4]

Textus Rec.) Mark 12:29 o de ihsouV apekriqh autw oti prwth paswn twn entolwn akoue israhl kurioV o qeoV hmwn kurioV eiV estin NP - thanks for checking :thumbsup:

Torah613

24th June 2008, 08:59 AM

I'm confused. So are you saying that Christian faith is acceptable to Judaism and that you do not have to renounce your faith in Jsus to be accepted as a Jew?

I came to the same conclusion reading her post.

Yochanan

Torah613

24th June 2008, 09:01 AM

And what one
G-d do you believe Christians worship?

I do not know. I think they may simply be deeply confused. And I'm not entirely convinced that trinitarian chr*Stianity is monotheistic.

Yochanan

Torah613

24th June 2008, 09:06 AM

The names of our God is Yahwah, Elohiym, Holy Spirit, and Holy Father. What is your God's name?

lol. Which one? we have seventy to choose from....

Yochanan

Torah613

24th June 2008, 09:12 AM

Steve, you've got it. However, its not a picture of intolerance. We are simply stating that if you, as a gentile, want to worship the G-d of Avraham, Yitzhak and Ya'akov, it must be within a Jewish context. No one is forcing you too, nor really pushing for you too. In fact, there is no picture of damnation going on. However, from a traditional chr*Stian perspective every single Jew is eternally damned. But we don't even have to get that ethereal:

1. The Pogroms
2. The Crusades
3. The Spanish Inquisition.

Talk about the picture of intolerance.

yochanan

visionary

24th June 2008, 09:20 AM

Qalevra gave one Jewish viewpoint about the Messiah. Another view of some Jews is that the Messiah won't be a person at all, but merely an age of peace. At any rate, I don't think that there is any Jewish teaching or concept that the Messiah will be God in human form or divine. So, the Messiah as understood at this time by the Jewish people would not be someone who would be worshipped since only God may be worshipped.

J0nDaFr3aK, I agree with your assessment. I was just stating what I thought Christians believed before I became a Christian.Then there is the faith of Abraham recorded...In Jubilees 16:19-21 we read, "And thus [Abraham] celebrated his festival seven days, rejoicing with his whole heart and his whole soul, he and all those that were in his house; and there was not any stranger with him nor any bastard. And he blessed his Creator who had created him in his generation, for according to his pleasure did he create him; for he knew and observed that from him would come the plant of righteousness for the generations of eternity, and that from him should also come the holy seed, like him who had made all things. And he blessed his Creator, and he was glad, and he called the name of this festival the festival of the Lord with a joy acceptable to the Most High God."

Note that Abraham blessed his Creator "that from [Abraham] should also come the holy seed, like Him who had made all things". According to the passage, Messiah is at the same time both "from Abraham" according to human descent, but Messiah will also be "like Him who had made all things". A clearer prophecy of the God-man Messiah is hard to find.

This passage is also interesting in another regard. Notice the emphasis throughout the passage upon the gladness of heart which was inspired in Abraham as he thought upon these things; Abraham rejoiced, blessed his Creator, "and he was glad, and he called the name of this festival the festival of the Lord with a joy acceptable to the Most High God."

In this regard the passage reminds us of another passage of scripture from the New Testament. In John 8:56 we read, "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."