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TwinCrier
18th July 2004, 05:58 PM
Since y'all like to ask us questions I thought I would post in kind.

1. It is often said by Calvinists that dead men can't respond. As you say, "you are dead in your trespasses & sins." Eph. 2:1.

In Romans 6, it says that "in the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

If being dead in sin means one can't respond to God then does being dead to sin mean that the Christian cannot respond to sin?

2. Even though God does perfectly know all human thoughts, can man have thoughts that have never been thought before (i.e. ex-nihilo thoughts)?

If these thoughts are not free (e.g., they are determined) then has God caused all thoughts, including evil ones, which would make God the author of sin and evil and man not responsible?

If, on the other hand, these thoughts are free, then how can God remain sovereign according to the Calvinist definition of sovereignty?

3. The Bible says in 1 Timothy 2:4, "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth."

It also states that God wants all men to be saved in 2 Peter 3:9, Matthew 23:37 and in Ezekiel 33:11 and 18:30. Obviously not all men are saved.

How does Calvinism explain this? Does the God of Calvinism have two wills that are in direct contradiction and hence have a multiple personality disorder?

4. Calvinism excludes individual faith from the salvation process, classifying such faith as a work.

How can Calvinists classify faith as a work when Paul specifically excludes faith from works in Romans 3:27-28 and 4:5?

5. Jonah 2:8 says that "those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."

If, as Calvinism teaches, God determined before time began who would be reprobates, and therefore does not extend the grace to them by which they could be saved, how logically can we understand this verse's statement that these reprobates, "forfeited the grace that could be theirs.?"

6. The Bible says in John 6:44, "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." The same word "draw" is used in John 12:32 which says, "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto myself." Matthew 23:37 says that men can resist God's will.

How do you answer this problem in Calvinism?

7. You say that even the "good" acts of sinners are "bad" because they come from a completely depraved nature. Is it a "bad" act to rationally apprehend the truthfulness of apologetics?

If so, why has God commanded us to practice apologetics to sinners, which causes them to do a bad act? Doesn't that mean that God causes sinners' bad acts?

If you say "yes," doesn't that make God a bad guy?

8. When Calvinism is shown to have logical contradictions, Calvinists usually reply that God's thoughts are unsearchable, and therefore the logical problems that Calvinism has, for example divine election and human responsibility, exhaustive sovereignty and human free will, and God's having two contradictory wills, are solved by invoking the phrase, "well that's a mystery."

If you can solve your logic problems by copping out with the term mystery, why can't the Arminian types, atheists and others pull the same move?

9. The Bible says in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 that reprobates "perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

From your Calvinistic worldview, how can it logically be said that a reprobate refuses to love the truth and so be saved, when your God determines that the reprobate can't love the truth, can't be saved, and therefore doesn't refuse God at all?

10. You have said that nothing thwarts the will of God, and you also have said that a man's will cannot be free or else God would not be absolutely sovereign.

Doesn't this mean that God determines (or is the cause of) evil and the evil acts of men for his sovereign pleasure?

11. In Romans 9 where God says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" why do you automatically assume that God does not want to have mercy on all but only have mercy on the select few when God clearly tells us in Romans 11:32 that, "God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all?"

If you say that all means all classes of men, but not all men in every class, then why does it not mean all classes of men but not all men in every class in Romans 3:23 where it says, "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?" Does this mean some have not sinned? Perhaps, for instance, the Virgin Mary?

ŠAnswers in Action, 1996 http://www.answers.org/theology/calvinism.html

TwinCrier
20th July 2004, 08:24 AM
Bump

JM
20th July 2004, 02:13 PM
You should ask this in the Reformed forum, no one is willing to post in here because you'll debate and we can't. ;)

Besides, I started a thread 'Ask a Calvinist' for this reason in the Reformed Forum.

TwinCrier
20th July 2004, 03:20 PM
There are no Calvinist Baptists?

BT
20th July 2004, 03:22 PM
You can debate in here if you're a Baptist (calvinist or not) :P

BBAS 64
20th July 2004, 03:54 PM
Good Day, All

http://www.straitgate.com/jw052999.ram

One hour response to that page By James White as heard on the radio, will look for responses from Baptist.

Bill

BT
20th July 2004, 04:02 PM
Good Day, All

http://www.straitgate.com/jw052999.ram

One hour response to that page By James White as heard on the radio, will look for responses from Baptist.

Bill
With what program do you listen to a .ram file?

BBAS 64
20th July 2004, 04:05 PM
With what program do you listen to a .ram file?Good Day, BT

Real audio, www.real.com (http://www.real.com)

You can download a free player.

Bill

JM
20th July 2004, 09:55 PM
Good Day, All

http://www.straitgate.com/jw052999.ram

One hour response to that page By James White as heard on the radio, will look for responses from Baptist.

Bill
James White is solid, anyone listen to the Calvinist debate? :hug:

BT
20th July 2004, 10:12 PM
James White is solid, anyone listen to the Calvinist debate? :hug:
Yes, I listened to some of it. I couldn't sit for the whole hour though. My daughter needed to be put to bed, my wife needed to be assured that she still has a husband, and my term paper needed some polishing.

I've heard Dr. White before and read some of his work. He is indeed a solid calvinist. I don't think that was a debate though... more of a Q&A session..

BBAS 64
21st July 2004, 05:21 AM
James White is solid, anyone listen to the Calvinist debate? :hug:
Hey SP,

I have listened to many debates with Mr. White and others, what one are you referring to the one on BAM with Mr. Hunt??

Peace to u,

Bill

JM
21st July 2004, 09:20 AM
Hey SP,

I have listened to many debates with Mr. White and others, what one are you referring to the one on BAM with Mr. Hunt??

Peace to u,

Bill
Ahhh, I don't have the tapes with me. It's called the Calvinism(or ist) Debate and it deals with the Will of Man and Limited Atonement. I doubt its Mr. Hunt. I just wanted to mention it because Dr. White does a good job presenting the Biblical doctrine of both the will and atonement. The guy he debated lost, anyone could see that, but that's not why I mentioned it...White did a great job and it's worth a listen.

SP

JM
23rd July 2004, 09:26 AM
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8612106&posted=1#post8612106

Ebb
23rd July 2004, 05:10 PM
3. The Bible says in 1 Timothy 2:4, "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth."


Here is an excellent essay on understanding the three theological views of this verse.

1. Arminian
2. Four-point Calvinist
3. Five-point Calvinist

In Summary:
A. The Arminian Interpretation: "God wants all men without exception by their own free will to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

B. The Modified or 4-Point Calvinist Interpretation: "God desires to save all men without exception and to bring them to the knowledge of the truth upon the condition of faith, since Christ's atonement was universal and placed each and every individual in a savable position."

C. The Historic or 5-Point Calvinist Interpretation: "God desires, in harmony with His eternal decree, to save all men without distinction (i.e., without respect to rank, station, race, or nationality) and bring them to the knowledge of the truth."

http://www.the-highway.com/1Tim2.4.html

BBAS 64
23rd July 2004, 07:57 PM
Here is an excellent essay on understanding the three theological views of this verse.

1. Arminian
2. Four-point Calvinist
3. Five-point Calvinist

In Summary:
A. The Arminian Interpretation: "God wants all men without exception by their own free will to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

B. The Modified or 4-Point Calvinist Interpretation: "God desires to save all men without exception and to bring them to the knowledge of the truth upon the condition of faith, since Christ's atonement was universal and placed each and every individual in a savable position."

C. The Historic or 5-Point Calvinist Interpretation: "God desires, in harmony with His eternal decree, to save all men without distinction (i.e., without respect to rank, station, race, or nationality) and bring them to the knowledge of the truth."

http://www.the-highway.com/1Tim2.4.html
Good Day, Ebb

I do not know the authour of this page, but I think he presents a false view of the Reformed understanding of this verse. What he has given is only a part of the exergeis of the passage as a whole in considering the verses before this one and fails to look at the next verse.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now, if there is one mediator for men that mediates on their behalf before the Father. It is an impossiblity to think that Jesus mediates on behalf of all men and fails some of the time. His meditation is allways effective for those whom he mediates, if he was the mediator for all men then all men would be saved and that is not the case from a Biblical view point.

For His Glory Alone! :clap:

Bill

Ebb
23rd July 2004, 11:11 PM
He takes the 5-point Calvinist position, and from the links on his web site, he looks to be either a Reformed Baptist or Presbyterian.

BT
23rd July 2004, 11:41 PM
It is an impossiblity to think that Jesus mediates on behalf of all men and fails some of the time. His meditation is allways effective for those whom he mediates, if he was the mediator for all men then all men would be saved and that is not the case from a Biblical view point.

Indeed, but Christ does not mediate for all men. Christ mediates for those who have believed in him, in this He could never fail. This is why we see that there are two judgements... the judgement seat of Christ (for us), the Great White Throne (the rest). If a man chooses to deny Christ, then Christ does not act as mediator. This does not show any failure on God's end, rather it implicitly shows the failure of man and the absolute necessity of accepting the gift of Salvation from Jesus Christ.

BBAS 64
28th July 2004, 06:55 AM
Indeed, but Christ does not mediate for all men. Christ mediates for those who have believed in him, in this He could never fail. This is why we see that there are two judgements... the judgement seat of Christ (for us), the Great White Throne (the rest). If a man chooses to deny Christ, then Christ does not act as mediator. This does not show any failure on God's end, rather it implicitly shows the failure of man and the absolute necessity of accepting the gift of Salvation from Jesus Christ.
Good Day, BT

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Just so I get your understanding straight, In 2:4 "all men" is every single man reguardless. In 2:5 "men" are believers only? Not quite sure that this passage implicitly shows any thing with reguards to the "failure of men".

Peace to u,

Bill

eldermike
28th July 2004, 07:34 AM
Paul says He is teaching the "true faith to the gentiles" (vr 7) and this was his purpose. Verse 4 is simply adding gentiles to the list.

JM
28th July 2004, 04:29 PM
Jesus doesn't pray for the world.

BT
29th July 2004, 01:23 PM
Good Day, BT

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Just so I get your understanding straight, In 2:4 "all men" is every single man reguardless. In 2:5 "men" are believers only? Not quite sure that this passage implicitly shows any thing with reguards to the "failure of men".

Peace to u,

Bill

Hi Bill,

Yes indeed verse four means all men. You see the great misunderstanding with this verse is that people confuse it (some would say twist it) to mean or say "It is God's will that all men are saved".. but that is not only, not what it says, it is also not what it means. There is an enormous difference between these two statements:

"It is God's will that all be saved"
"[God] who will to have all men saved"

verse 5 refers to men as in the plural of "man" or "person" as it is commonly used... (I mean it does not refer to men only.. but women as well).

This passage does not implicitly show the failure of men. If you take it in context and marry it up with the two judgements etc. you see that it is man's failure that causes judgement. He is guilty before God...

Peace :wave:

BBAS 64
29th July 2004, 03:05 PM
Hi Bill,

Yes indeed verse four means all men. You see the great misunderstanding with this verse is that people confuse it (some would say twist it) to mean or say "It is God's will that all men are saved".. but that is not only, not what it says, it is also not what it means. There is an enormous difference between these two statements:

"It is God's will that all be saved"
"[God] who will to have all men saved"

verse 5 refers to men as in the plural of "man" or "person" as it is commonly used... (I mean it does not refer to men only.. but women as well).

This passage does not implicitly show the failure of men. If you take it in context and marry it up with the two judgements etc. you see that it is man's failure that causes judgement. He is guilty before God...

Peace :wave:
God day, BT

I will agree that there is a differance in those two staments, though not sure how huge it is "kinda got a mind cramp today" :sigh: .

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


This what I do not understand if all men "people" means every sigle person what in the Bold and underlined would cause you to change the meaning of men "people" to believers only?

Peace to u,

Bill

BT
29th July 2004, 06:09 PM
God day, BT

I will agree that there is a differance in those two staments, though not sure how huge it is "kinda got a mind cramp today" :sigh: .

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


This what I do not understand if all men "people" means every sigle person what in the Bold and underlined would cause you to change the meaning of men "people" to believers only?

Peace to u,

Bill
Hey Bill,

The only thing that changes the second "men" to believers is that Christ does not mediate for those who are not believers. I think the hinge point is "mediator" in this case. Consider that Moses was also a "mediator" his position mediated between Israel and God (Israel being the "chosen" nation). Let me give you a dictionary definition of mediator:

American Tract Society Dictionary:

MEDIATOR
One who stands between two parties or persons as the organ of communication or the agent of reconciliation. So far as man is sensible of his own guilt and of the holiness and justice of God, he shrinks from any direct communication with a being he has so much reason to fear. Hence the disposition more or less prevalent in all ages and in all parts of the world, to interpose between the soul and its judge some person or thing most adapted to propitiate his favor - as a priestly order, an upright and devout man, or the smoke of sacrifices and the sweet savor of incense, Job 9:33. The Israelites evinced this feeling at the Mount Sinai, De 5:23-31; and God was pleased to constitute Moses a mediator between himself and them, to receive and transmit the law on the one had, and their vows of obedience on the other. In this capacity he acted on various other occasions, Ex 32:30-32; Nu 14:1-45; Ps 106:23; and was thus an agent and a type of Christ, Ga 3:19. The Messiah has been in all ages the only true Mediator between God and man; and without Him, God is inaccessible and a consuming fire, Joh 14:6; Ac 4:12. As the Angel of the covenant, Christ was the channel of all communications between heaven and earth in Old Testament days; and as the Mediator of the new covenant, he does all that is needful to provide for a perfect reconciliation between God and man. He consults the honor of God by appearing as our Advocate with the blood of atonement; and through his sympathizing love and the agency of the Holy Spirit, he disposes and enables us to return to God. The believing penitent is "accepted in the Beloved" - his person, his praises, and his prayers; and through the same Mediator alone he receives pardon, grace, and eternal life. In this high office Christ stands alone, because he alone is both God and man, 1Ti 2:5. To join Mary and the saints to him in his mediatorship, as the antichristian church of Rome does, implies that he is unable to accomplish his own peculiar work, Heb 8:6; 9:15; 12:24.