New Testement up in Flames - Anti missionary activity up

[Lulav]

It was reported yesterday by several major news outlets that recently the religious Jews of Or Yehuda set fire to hundreds of copies of the New Testament and other missionary propaganda. Ha'aretz called it "the latest act of violence against Christian missionaries in the Holy Land." Calev Myers, attorney representing the Messianic communities of Israel called for the people who did it to be brought to trial. But brought to trial for what?

The town of mostly religious Jews had recently been targeted by missionaries, a form of harassment. The missionaries were not invited to come, they invaded. In the wake of their invasion, they left hundreds, maybe even thousands of New Testaments and other missionary literature. The townspeople were in a quandary -- what to do with this heresy that they did not want in their homes? So, the Deputy Mayor came up with a solution. He offered to take the unwanted trash off the residents' hands and dispose of them in such a way that made it clear and in no uncertain terms that such literature was not only unsolicited, but unwelcome.
Israelinsider (http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/12859.htm)

What do you think? Isn't this a bit over the top?

[Lulav]

The burning of hundreds of New Testaments by yeshiva students in Or Yehuda last week was regrettable and unplanned, the city's deputy mayor, the man who spurred the students to act, told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.
Deputy Mayor Uzi Aharon of Shas used the opportunity of speaking to the Post, which publishes a monthly Christian Edition, to apologize to Christians worldwide, saying he hoped the incident would not inflame tensions between Jews and Christians.
Following the publication of the story on Tuesday, however, many messianic Jewish and other Christian groups expressed grave concern over the increasingly violent nature of anti-missionary activity in Israel.
Aharon had a very busy Tuesday. In the morning, Ma'ariv ran a story on how he organized to retrieve and burn hundreds of New Testaments given to Ethiopian Jews in his city by local messianic Jews. By 9 a.m. he was on an Army Radio news-talk show defending his actions, which he called "purging the evil among us." JP (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1211288128832&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

[Henaynei]

Over the top - not necessarily.... what would you do if your neighborhood was suddenly and without invitation inundated with copies of witchcraft books, paraphernalia and pamphlets - left on every door, in your stores, on your cars, in your mailboxes etc??? I know what your'd do - you'd throw everyone that came into your hands into the trash, right?? Or would you leave them laying about for your children to read??

Isn't burning at least no worse and perhaps better than throwing G-d's Word in the trash??

[Lulav]

Over the top - not necessarily.... what would you do if your neighborhood was suddenly and without invitation inundated with copies of witchcraft books, paraphernalia and pamphlets - left on every door, in your stores, on your cars, in your mailboxes etc??? I know what your'd do - you'd throw everyone that came into your hands into the trash, right?? Or would you leave them laying about for your children to read??

Isn't burning at least no worse and perhaps better than throwing G-d's Word in the trash?? I don't know quite how to take that Henaynei. Do you consider that the NT is comparable with scorcery spell books? You asked what would I do, and ignoring the witchcraft comment, even not as a believer I as a responsible adult would be careful before throwing anything away that may have the name within it, also there are many places where the tanach is quoted. Perhaps rip out the offending parts? I don't know of many places if any that the NT teaches idol worship or witchcraft, but I do know of many places in Israel that are still high places or places with idols left standing and cleaned up and left there for archeology's sake that should have more concentrated on removing than a Christian book.

It isn't the protection behind it that worries me, its the outright hatred I see, and that is not, or should not be part of Judaism.

If they could gather them together to burn, I'm sure they could just as well gathered them together and send them back.

[ContraMundum]

History repeating? Sounds more and more like the Book of Acts revisited over there.

[Henaynei]

I don't know quite how to take that Henaynei. Do you consider that the NT is comparable with sorcery spell books? but from their POV it IS comparable... that is exactly the point

what would you do if there was a Quranic Jihad evangelical inundation of your neighborhood or child's school?? would you demand that the people and materials be removed?

From the Orthodox Jewish POV the eternal souls of their children and the survival of the Jewish people is at stake....

[Lulav]

I'm sorry but I still say it's extreme and they better be careful. No, I would not run to my spiritual leader and demand something be done, nor would I participate in any book burning, and I don't think that would be allowed. besides it is already in the schools and workplaces, this is to many shades of Kristalnacht there for me. And should be for those who did this. Two wrongs don't make a right and if they think that protecting their children can be done by burning books about Jesus then they are lost in the dark ages. There is TV and radio, internet many different ways that they will hear about him, and to me, I would rather them have the actual words to decide themselves than allow them to only be able to find out through someone elses twisted view ( TV, radio, internet).

[Henaynei]

Lulav, I don't *advocate* such a response --- but I do understand it....

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Lulav]

So then you would also 'understand' Hitlers response in burning Torah?? SWIM?

[ShirChadash]

Lulav, one may understand *why someone does something* without endorsing it yourself. Also there is a huge difference between burning what has been given to YOU because you do not esteem it, and taking property that is not yours FROM those who hold it dear, and burning it.

[Lulav]

Motive is the same, end result the same.

[ShirChadash]

Lulav, one may understand *why someone does something* without endorsing it yourself. Also there is a huge difference between burning what has been given to YOU because you do not esteem it, and taking property that is not yours FROM those who hold it dear, and burning it.
And yet the process from gaining possession to disposing of the materials (not to mention the presence or absence of injustice involved in the actions) differ completely between the two.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

And yet the process from gaining possession to disposing of the materials (not to mention the presence or absence of injustice involved in the actions) differ completely between the two. The question here is; what was their intent. Did they mean the literature was unwelcome, or do they believe that the scripture is of the devil? I do know that Christian can seem like pest. Perhaps they should post a sign that says: No Missionary Literature. That might help. Some one could make some money making those signs.

[ShirChadash]

I believe their intent was likely to get rid of objectionable material, and as I said there was no injustice involved -- they did not remove nor deprive the Chr*tians of the bibles, nor did they have them illegally in their possession, and they did not steal them in order to keep Chri*tians from having them, etc. They simply disposed of what was distributed liberally and given to them freely, which was unwanted.

I tend to agree with someone I heard speaking the other day who mentioned that Israel should have some laws in place to keep people able to both practice their religion freely but also to keep them from actively evangelizing/missionizing another when it is not directly sought by that individual. She said that if Israel can not protect its spiritual borders, no wonder she can not protect her physical borders.

I think that's wisdom, there.

[Talmidah]

if Israel can not protect its spiritual borders, no wonder she can not protect her physical borders.

:thumbsup:

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I believe their intent was likely to get rid of objectionable material, and as I said there was no injustice involved -- they did not remove nor deprive the Chr*tians of the bibles, nor did they have them illegally in their possession, and they did not steal them in order to keep Chri*tians from having them, etc. They simply disposed of what was distributed liberally and given to them freely, which was unwanted.

I tend to agree with someone I heard speaking the other day who mentioned that Israel should have some laws in place to keep people able to both practice their religion freely but also to keep them from actively evangelizing/missionizing another when it is not directly sought by that individual. She said that if Israel can not protect its spiritual borders, no wonder she can not protect her physical borders.

I think that's wisdom, there. I hold to a different point of view. They did make a public display when they could have just toss them. I believe in freedom of speech. They can just post a sign if it is that troubling to them.

[ShirChadash]

You do not believe they had a right to publicly demonstrate as well? Of course, a public demonstration is hardly what occurred. I was clearly not done with huge fanfare -- as far as I know at this point, it was not even enough of a big deal to cause a leak of any videotaping or photographs whatsoever (if there are photos, I haven't seen any at this point). It was pretty expeditiously done, and what is the difference whether they burn them, or toss them where others may get ahold of them, other than the fact that if they were to just toss them out, they have not done their responsibility to see to it that objectionable material not fall into others' hands from their own (the materials were in their possession and they have a responsibility to see to it those materials are destroyed and not passed along to others).

I hold to a different point of view. They did make a public display when they could have just toss them. I believe in freedom of speech. They can just post a sign if it is that troubling to them.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

You do not believe they had a right to publicly demonstrate as well? Of course, a public demonstration is hardly what occurred. I was clearly not done with huge fanfare -- as far as I know at this point, it was not even enough of a big deal to cause a leak of any videotaping or photographs whatsoever (if there are photos, I haven't seen any at this point). It was pretty expeditiously done, and what is the difference whether they burn them, or toss them where others may get ahold of them, other than the fact that if they were to just toss them out, they have not done their responsibility to see to it that objectionable material not fall into others' hands from their own (the materials were in their possession and they have a responsibility to see to it those materials are destroyed and not passed along to others). I thought it was a public display. Yes, they do have a right to dispose of the property. I'm not saying they don't have a right to protest. But it looks like a case of ill will. If so, then that is not good. Like I said, they can post a sign that says no Missionaries or literature. Now their is a money maker for someone in Israel.

[ShirChadash]

I thought it was a public display. Yes, they do have a right to dispose of the property. I'm not saying they don't have a right to protest. But it looks like a case of ill will. If so, then that is not good. Like I said, they can post a sign that says no Missionaries or literature. Now their is a money maker for someone in Israel.

I'm sure it was public -- that's why I asked you if they have a right to publicly demonstrate (which needn't have been violent or any other negative description necessarily, in order to simply be "public"). As far as ill will, well I certainly would assume they had "ill will" toward the books, and no amount of pleasure at the materials or the actions of missionaries distributing such materials in their neighborhood(s). What does their personal internal emotional reaction have to do with whether it was a reasonable, orderly procedure and a reasonable disposal of the books.

There is still no connection as far as I can see at all between burning books and materials given to them and in their possession lawfully, for the purposes of removing them from their own neighborhood while not risking passing them on to others... and the book-burnings of old when materials were stolen/confiscated and burned in order to deprive those who love them of their sacred texts.

[Henaynei]

So then you would also 'understand' Hitlers response in burning Torah?? SWIM?going into someones home or place of worship and burning what you find there is *vastly* different than burning unsolicited materials you find in your mailbox or on your doorstep.... really....

[anisavta]

Where did the yeshiva students get these Bibles? Were they delivered to the yeshiva? Did each student bring one he had personally received? If not who did they get them from?

[ShirChadash]

Where did the yeshiva students get these Bibles? Were they delivered to the yeshiva? Did each student bring one he had personally received? If not who did they get them from?I would presume, from the citizens who called for action from the mayor. After all, I highly doubt the students broke into other Jews' homes to get the materials that those same Jews demanded be disposed-of. :sorry: That's not meant snarkily, btw... it just seems logical to me.

[ShirChadash]

hm
wrong thread?

[Torah613]

It was reported yesterday by several major news outlets that recently the religious Jews of Or Yehuda set fire to hundreds of copies of the New Testament and other missionary propaganda. Ha'aretz called it "the latest act of violence against Christian missionaries in the Holy Land." Calev Myers, attorney representing the Messianic communities of Israel called for the people who did it to be brought to trial. But brought to trial for what?

The town of mostly religious Jews had recently been targeted by missionaries, a form of harassment. The missionaries were not invited to come, they invaded. In the wake of their invasion, they left hundreds, maybe even thousands of New Testaments and other missionary literature. The townspeople were in a quandary -- what to do with this heresy that they did not want in their homes? So, the Deputy Mayor came up with a solution. He offered to take the unwanted trash off the residents' hands and dispose of them in such a way that made it clear and in no uncertain terms that such literature was not only unsolicited, but unwelcome.
Israelinsider (http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/12859.htm)

What do you think? Isn't this a bit over the top?

I actually didn't like it. I thought all those nts etc. should have been put into a recylcling recepticle. Otherwise, yes they should have been disposed of.

When you get junk mail (unsolicitated and unwelcome pieces of paper) do you not either trash or recycle them?

This is not antichr*stian activity. This is not attacks on missionaries. This is justified moral outrage over litter. I would say the same thing if a chr*stian neighborhood were papered with hare kri*hna pamphlets.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

From the Orthodox Jewish POV the eternal souls of their children and the survival of the Jewish people is at stake....

Finally a messianic who gets it!

man I wish this post wasn't so old i could rep it.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Lulav, one may understand *why someone does something* without endorsing it yourself. Also there is a huge difference between burning what has been given to YOU because you do not esteem it, and taking property that is not yours FROM those who hold it dear, and burning it.

Omayn! what is with these base comparisons between Orthodox Jewry and Nazism by messianics of late.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I tend to agree with someone I heard speaking the other day who mentioned that Israel should have some laws in place to keep people able to both practice their religion freely but also to keep them from actively evangelizing/missionizing another when it is not directly sought by that individual. She said that if Israel can not protect its spiritual borders, no wonder she can not protect her physical borders.


Omayn!

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I thought it was a public display. Yes, they do have a right to dispose of the property. I'm not saying they don't have a right to protest. But it looks like a case of ill will. If so, then that is not good. Like I said, they can post a sign that says no Missionaries or literature. Now their is a money maker for someone in Israel.

such signs are all over Israel. Unfortunately, just like in America, "no soliciting" signs are not legally enforcable.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

or rather in america they are legally enforcable, just not enforced.

Yochanan