Tradition???

[Christianbelle]

I attend a small, Missionary Bapt Church. We average (if we are lucky) about 40-50 people for morning service and about 19 in Sunday School. They are very traditional and resistant in changing the slightest detail of services. For example: we have had several people suggest mixing in a few worship songs in with our hymns, but it's shot down even before its started. They are very old-fashioned in their way of thinking and its hindering our growth. We are supposed to be a beacon for our community, right? Well how can you do that if you want to exclude certain class of people from the church? A lack of effort is also absent from the church. Only a few people are for outreach and visitation.

I have had several ideas for outreach. I've also been given the go ahead for any idea I had. The preacher and his wife have said that they would back me 100% and help in any way.

I was wondering if any of you have faced this problem with older members, tradition and a more contemporary services?

[arunma]

I'm currently part of a new PCA church plant (we don't do worship services yet), and my pastor often talks about how many people in the denomination are much the same way. Very traditional, very regimented, and not open to (Biblical, godly) change. In terms of worship, this often doesn't bother me as much as it should. There's something I appreciate about liturgical worship with old hymns. But at the end of the day, exalting the traditions of man above the commandment of God is a very, very bad idea. It leads to a dispassionate church that cares more about religiosity than about the worship of God.

Of course in my case, we're starting a new church, so we can pretty much do whatever we want as long as it's within the bounds of Scripture. Everybody seems to be in favor of contemporary style worship, so when we do have worship services, they will be modern in nature. I was a bit disappointed when my pastor mentioned that the clergy at our church wouldn't be wearing the robes, but oh well.

[Christianbelle]

Don't get me wrong, I do love the tradition. Mainly because it reminds me of my childhood. :) I hate seeing BTS not being practiced in many churches. Anyways, I wish that they would kind of mix the two styles. Single a couple of hymns, sing a couple of modern worship songs. I don't see where it would hurt.

[nzguy]

hi! I go to a little church with almost the same number of congregation members and we most likely have the same statement of faith as you guys.. seeing as we are affiliated with the ABA

but we have some pretty radical things.. like we have moved service from morning on sundays to evenings so we can outreach to the community while they are out and about.

we have also implemented a process from a book called Simple Church, by Eric Geiger and Tom Rainer.. and we now have an FIA: Faith in Action programme, and T.O.R.C.. the outeach club, for evangelism.

anyway.. I have done alot of outreaches.. being the deputy of evangelism at my church.. so would be keen to give ideas :)

[WarEagle]

I attend a small, Missionary Bapt Church. We average (if we are lucky) about 40-50 people for morning service and about 19 in Sunday School. They are very traditional and resistant in changing the slightest detail of services. For example: we have had several people suggest mixing in a few worship songs in with our hymns, but it's shot down even before its started. They are very old-fashioned in their way of thinking and its hindering our growth. We are supposed to be a beacon for our community, right? Well how can you do that if you want to exclude certain class of people from the church? A lack of effort is also absent from the church. Only a few people are for outreach and visitation.

I have had several ideas for outreach. I've also been given the go ahead for any idea I had. The preacher and his wife have said that they would back me 100% and help in any way.

I was wondering if any of you have faced this problem with older members, tradition and a more contemporary services?

As far as the music goes, I agree with them. From the beginning of our church, we decided that there isn't going to be any CCM or modern "worship" songs. We also did away with "special" music.

We stick to hymns.

As for the other things, if they're Biblical and not seeker sensitive or, Heaven forbid, emergent, and if you can make a Biblical case for them, then go ahead and do them.

[trinityisunity]

In my church we have a 'Traditional Service' and a 'Contemporary Service'. The trad. service is dying in numbers and the cont. service is meeting the needs of the community and is experiencing good growth because of this. The reason we have the two is because of the same thing you are going through-NO COMPROMISE. As long as the Word of God is preached does it matter if we sing hymns or choruses. They are all worship songs!!! Sensitivity is needed but compromise on both sides also is required. 'The Product does not change, but the way we package it does-to be relevent to the culture in its setting'

[arunma]

Sensitivity is needed but compromise on both sides also is required. 'The Product does not change, but the way we package it does-to be relevent to the culture in its setting'

This reminds me of what Mark Driscoll said at a recent Desiring God conference. In one hand we must have the closed fist of sound Biblical doctrine, and in the other the open palm of relevant Gospel contextualization.

[PaladinGirl]

I go to a local Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church and they don't change hardly ever either. However, we have no problem with church growth. In fact, we are currently in the process of adding on to the main church building to accommodate rapid growth of the church membership. :)

[trentlogain]

and not open to (Biblical, godly) change. In terms of worship,...But at the end of the day, exalting the traditions of man above the commandment of God is a very, very bad idea.
Of course in my case, we're starting a new church, so we can pretty much do whatever we want as long as it's within the bounds of Scripture.

I'm not opening the discussion up to debate or looking to argue. I'm not even going to agree or disagree with this. I would just like to see Bible passages where The Lord talks about what you are referring to. (Just for my own stepping stone in The Word today.)

[PaladinGirl]

Traditions such as having a pot luck dinner on the first Sunday of every month are fine but using tradition to form doctrine is not. I subscribe to the idea of sola scriptura or scripture alone as do most Baptists.

[arunma]

I'm not opening the discussion up to debate or looking to argue. I'm not even going to agree or disagree with this. I would just like to see Bible passages where The Lord talks about what you are referring to. (Just for my own stepping stone in The Word today.)

There are many Biblical passages which speak about commandments and traditions. Here is one such example from the mouth of Christ:
And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men." And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! (Mark 7:6-9)
The preference for hymns, among the other things mentioned, is a tradition of men. Christ didn't condemn the traditions of men, but only their elevation to the status of doctrine. Therefore, we ought not to give this tradition any undue reverence.

[Project 86]

I spent several years in churches that do contemporary music. I now am a member of a church that does only hymns along with a choir and orchestra. We have a healthy church of about 500 or more visitors at our Sunday morning service. We have many young and old. Some born in Korea, India and other countries. I have ran into to many people that put the type of music over the type of preaching and that just saddens me. If we need to need to play rock music to reach people then we are just reaching people that are coming for the wrong reasons. Also I did find much (not all) of the contemporary music doctrinally shallow and lyrically repetitive.

[Christianbelle]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and to say that my church is dead. I can honestly say that "tradition" has killed it. The members go through the motions but they are not worshipping. You hear the expression "if it's not broke..." Well, it's broke and something needs to be done about it. The church no longer reaches out the community and that's the very thing that it should be doing. We are God's voice and we need to be beating the streets getting the word out, but our members would rather just show up for Sunday morning service sing only 2-3 songs that we sing every Sunday and listen to the message and go home. We have 3 regular kids that come to Sunday School and they are all in my class. They have no programs to offer the youth. Very few people show up for Sunday night service and only 8 or so show up for weekly Bible study on Wed night and that includes the preacher, his wife and their son. Everyone expects people to just show up. If you don't give the people what they need and are looking for (the body of Christ) then guess what: they aren't going to come back. If a visitor comes to a dead church, why would they want to come back? I've seen a young, contemporary church thrive. I've witnessed what simple modern worship songs can do. They are repetitive and it allows you to focus on the movement of the spirit - not what the next words are or if you are singing in the right key. I feel the need for both because both offers movement for different people. God's message does not change and never will. But at the same time, we do need be the body and reach out in a dying world. And if what we are doing is not working, then a different approach is needed, is it not? The pastor is frustrated as well, but if he can't get the church's support, he's pretty much dead in the water.

[trinityisunity]

What is the average age of the congregation? My church used to consist of retirees and many old folk. At our church 10 years ago they were praying for kids to come along and within a few years we now have 60-70 kids in youth and Sun. School groups. We are the only Baptist church within a 40 mile radius and we are fast becoming a regional church. I am not saying this to brag but to encourage you in that what you are wanting is a good thing. Get together prayerfully with the pastor and any other like-minded members of that church to see a new vision for your church. Our church is non-charasmatic but it is alive and well. It is all well and good to bring in choruses but it is still important to throw in a hymn or two!!! To do choruses effectively you will need to be looking for musical people like a drummer, guitar, bass guitar, etc, etc, in your church congregation.

Remember it is not the message of the Gospel we are changing but only the way it is presented to those in your community. If hymns and tradition were working for the church then that is fine stick with them but if they are not, try something new. If your pastor is frustrated I am sure he would be open to some changes?

I will be praying for you and your church!

[arunma]

I spent several years in churches that do contemporary music. I now am a member of a church that does only hymns along with a choir and orchestra. We have a healthy church of about 500 or more visitors at our Sunday morning service. We have many young and old. Some born in Korea, India and other countries. I have ran into to many people that put the type of music over the type of preaching and that just saddens me. If we need to need to play rock music to reach people then we are just reaching people that are coming for the wrong reasons. Also I did find much (not all) of the contemporary music doctrinally shallow and lyrically repetitive.

I think you also bring up a good point. On the one hand, the Bible does not say "thou shalt sing only hymns," and to teach this as doctrine would be sin. But on the other, we need to keep in mind that church is not about entertainment. The purpose of church worship is to enjoy God, and not the service.

I too have observed that many modern songs contain virtually no doctrine, and perhaps are a sympton (cause?) of a doctrinally weak church. At the same time, there are very many modern songs with very strong theological messages, and many ancient hymns with such strange language that they make no sense to modern worshipers. Sovereign Grace Ministries, for example, is a charismatic Calvinist group of churches which produces music with very deep theological teachings, most of which are equal in substance to the old hymns of the church. I would suggest that ultimately, the church must focus on sound, Biblical worship, without regard to labels such as "contemporary" and "modern."

[Ishida]

I don't like to sing the hymns at all, but that's probably because of my age. (21) But I do like to read them as the people are singing to catch their theological meanings, are they really that deep? (If by deep you mean it takes a lot of thought to get their meaning, or not superficial?) Either way, I always enjoy when theology jumps out at you. But do what you think is best for your church, and try to make sure that you're on the right path in doing so as well. (Putting the Lord first.) Approach it all prayerfully too. Your pastor may have to give a mean sermon or address this problem, a branch that bears no fruit will be cut off. (Read about the Church of Sardis in Revelation 3, you may find it interesting.) I can sort of relate to this, though my church is not baptist, but Disciples of Christ.

[nzguy]

maybe you could suggest to your pastor to read 'Simple Church' by Eric Geiger and Tom Rainer?

[TimRout]

My first church was very traditional and unwilling to change. I pastored there for four years and tried everything I knew to get the people to re-engage the community, but they wouldn't listen. They had become so introspective, evangelism was a thing of the past and church tradition had become (in some respects) even more important to them than the Word of God. A few weeks after I moved on, they closed their doors. Sounds to me like your church is heading down the same road.

That said, we must be careful to clearly define "tradition" if indeed we are going to criticize it. For example, evangelicals can and should be critical of Roman Catholic Tradition, since it subverts the Bible. We should also be critical of cultural traditions (dress code, musical style, church architecture, etc.), when these are permitted to interfere with biblical obedience. However, I applaud the church that sticks by its conservative theological guns when others around them are demanding the compromise of key truths. Not all change is good change. The local church must constantly seek God in prayer and follow His lead to effectively proclaim the old old story among a new new generation.

[shrewdsnake]

We have a small church and an elderly age group. We are the youngest at out 30's and the next youngest is 59. We are the only family with kids. It's traditional but I like it that way and the group is very open minded and community oriented. We had a great pastor who really showed me a new way to study the Bible. I see spiritual growth in the church but no new members. We have just lost our pastor as he retired due to health issues he and his wife have. I pray our new pastor can find a way to keep the growth going without upsetting people and maybe make the place appealing to new members.

I don't think it matters what kind of songs you sing or service you have as long as people feel comfortable in worship and are growing. And the teachings are Biblical.

[sharon333]

That is a great point. It is all about the fellowship.

[Christianbelle]

We have had several people visit but they don't come back. One I know personally who said that it was boring to him. Sunday was my frist Sunday back in regular church as I have been spending my time in Children's Church here recently. It was boring. There is no emotion behind anything but the preaching. I said it earlier: the church is dead. They go through the motions but there is no worship. They are just there. I don't believe it's just to say they were there either. I think there is simply a lack of involvement from church members.

I don't think that contemporary vs. traditional is the true issue as to why our church isn't growing. It's the members. Everyone is friendly, don't get me wrong. But its dead. The music portion is blah. They sing the hymn and that's it. The song director complains if they sing more than 2-3 songs. It's kinda like a drive thru worship service, if you will. I don't know. I just get frustrated b/c no one wants to put forth the effort. NO one wants to visit to get our numbers up and no one wants to allow the smallest bit of change. It would disrupt their custom.

We don't have many kids who come to church. They are trying to plan activities for them. One woman (who is over the youth) brings 2 little girls to church with her. She said in a youth meeting that she was not bringing them to the outing b/c she didn't want to basically deal with them. We only have two other kids, one being the pastor's son. The other little girl is leaving for vacation next week. So that leaves just one - the preacher's son. Can they not see that that's a problem? There are houses FULL of kids around the church, but yet they won't reach out to them b/c it's supposedly a bad neighborhood. Isn't that who we're suppose to be reaching out to?

[HappyChicken]

I'm 30, and prefer hymns. I go to a church that is large and splitting at the seems. We have a praise band for the morning worship. It's a good band too. However, I'm sick of only singing songs I can hear anytime on KLOVE. I wanna sing How Great Thou Art sooooo bad. It's loud like a concert and people clap in between songs like they are applauding the band (I could be wrong about their motives...it just seems like that). Sometimes I feel sorry for the elderly people there because I know they have to turn their hearing aids down (humor, ha ha) because its loud, and I wonder if they feel out of place. It also seems like the singing portion of the service lasts longer than the message the pastor gives. I think it would be neat if our praise band did modern versions of hymns. Elvis sure did a great version of How Great Thou Art. I think there could be a way to make everyone happy. Go electric with the hymns!

It also blows my mind how our church is so large, and we have a music minister, and a praise band, ...but no choir. at all, not even for the kids. Okay, sorry for venting a bit.

[ImmersionX]

Don't get me wrong, I do love the tradition. Mainly because it reminds me of my childhood. :) I hate seeing BTS not being practiced in many churches. Anyways, I wish that they would kind of mix the two styles. Single a couple of hymns, sing a couple of modern worship songs. I don't see where it would hurt.

This is what the music minister at our church does on Sundays. It's awesome...:)

[Epiphoskei]

I think in your case, Christianbelle, it's less a problem of when to follow tradition as it is a problem of when to resist it. Yes, perhaps your church is a little stuck in the mud, however after seeing no small amount of church death, I know two things. First, engaging in a "worship war" has never, can never, and will never glorify God or minister to any community. Second, the Word of God is living and active, and if someone turns away from a church because he finds it "boring," either the God and the Word are suppressed, or he's suppressing the Word and the Lord. Either way, boringness is not exactly the nature of the problem, just the appearence of the problem.

[Adornan]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and to say that my church is dead. I can honestly say that "tradition" has killed it. The members go through the motions but they are not worshipping.
I know the feeling. Been in a lot of churches like that. I think someone's already said it, but what about your Pastor? Could mayeb you and him get together and really do something that might wake the Church up? If just you, your pastor, and his wife all really got into evangelism and outreach, it may make a difference. There's a lot of great resources out there - Way of the Master, make your own products with Zazzle, stuff like that.
If the Church is truly dead (which I've seen more than one of), then you may need to pray and make sure it's the Lord's Will for you to stay. And never forget: like it or not, politics are part of this world. If you really got on the good side of some of the elderly people, it might make a change. Do nice things for them. Care about them. If thery get excited, they may bemore willing to change. Definetely don't take the "old people are useless" approach (like Rick Wa. . . nevermind). Elderly saints are needed. And they have a lot of Wisdom.
Well folks, there's my two cents for what they're worth!

[Christianbelle]

Even though no one has posted in this forum in months, I feel like I should update you all. Basically our church is no longer. One incident has spun our church out of control via hearsay, gossip and halftruths. A few members of the congregation started a petition to remove our pastor. When the majority of the church stood behind the pastor, they left. We thought they had were gone. We picked up the pieces and moved forward. We had nearly 3x as many kids Sunday morning than we normally do and none of them wanted to leave. They were eager to come back that night. Monday came round two. The members that left our church began a new compaign which ultimately divided the church once again. After Wednesday night the church was without a preacher (he had no choice but to resign), absolutely no kids and only a handful of people.

I wasn't sure if I was going to stay or not. I said I would stay until the end of the month to see how things worked out; making sure that maybe God wasn't just weeding out some people. But S unday morning came and they were discussing shutting down our fellowship hall (which is where the Sun School rooms are and Children's Church is held) and only having Sunday morning services. That means no more children/youth ministry and no leader. Right now two women are running things. They are the ones locating a new pastor and choosing the closing of the fellowship. I'm in the hunt for a new church home.