Icons For Which An Image Of The Father Is Drawn?

[Orthodox Andrew]

Is it wrong to depict God The Father in an Icon?

[Orthodox Andrew]

P.S. It seems wrong to me, but I don't know for sure.

[Oblio]

I thought that there was a canon against this and that the only representation that was allowed was the symbolic one in the Hospitality of Abraham icon (e.g. Rublev) since this is picturing an event as evidenced in Holy Scripture.

IIRC there is an 'icon' with God the Father depicted sitting with His Son and the Holy Spirit above as a dove in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, but it is not in the 'Orthodox' section of the church per se.

[Philip]

It is wrong to write an icon of the Father since no one has seen the Father (as Oblio mentined, the Hospitality of Abraham is the exception). It is also wrong to write an icon showing the Holy Spirit as a dove unless it is an icon of the Theophany. Icons of Pentecost may show the Holy Spirit as fire.

St. John, in defense of Holy Orthodoxy, emphasized that icons confirm the Incarnation of our Lord.

[Dorotheos]

As I understand it, the Hospitality of Abraham (with or without Abraham and Sarah) is referred to as the Old Testament icon of the Trinity, while the Theophany is referred to as the New Testament icon of the Trinity. Technically these are the only two depictions allowed which symbolise the Trinity.

I'm pretty sure that the Father alone should never be depicted since, as Philip says, no one has seen the Father. I'm not sure that there is an actual canon against this, though. I think it likely but I haven't been able to find out. Does anyone have a reference? (By the way, there is an early canon against depicting the Son as a Lamb: the canon recognised the symbol as being a valid one, but, in effect, too confusing for the laity, so new icons with this symbol were banned. I didn't know about the dove depicting the Holy Spirit being banned but it would certainly follow the same pattern.)

On the other hand, there are many icons which depict a hand with two fingers outstretched descending from the clouds in blessing. I've always assumed that this was the Father.

(A very vague memory that I can't quite place tells me that when Christ blesses, his fingers form the monogram ICXC - thumb across fourth finger, and so on - and that when the Father blesses, the two outstretched fingers form a Greek capital pi to indicate "Pater" the Father. Don't trust me on this though. I'm pretty sure about the ICXC, but I may be remembering folk theology regarding the pi.)

Yours in Christ

Dorotheos

[Oblio]

For centuries, paintings and drawings have depicted the trinity as two men and a bird. In 1667, the Great Moscow Council of the Eastern churches declared "To represent the [Father] on icons with a gray beard, with his only Son on his lap, and a dove between them, is exceedingly absurd and unseemly,"[1] but that doesn't seem to have stopped artists from either the East or the West from perpetuating such depictions.

1 - Leonid Ouspensky and Vladimir Lossky, The Meaning of Icons, trans. G. E. H. Palmer and E. Kadlowbovsky (Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1982), 204, quoted in Gail Ramshaw, God Beyond Gender: Feminist Christian God-Language (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1995), 88.

[Orthodox Andrew]

Thanks a great deal, guys.:)





God Bless you all.

[Matrona]

If you ask me... I think it is wrong to depict Him, outside of the manifestations of the Father that we know of. Of course, my personal opinion is by no means authoritative. There is a Holy Trinity church in my city that has the "old man/young man/dove" kind of icon on the iconostasis to the right of the Mother of God, and the last time our bishop was in town, I noticed that on his vestments (that outermost one, I am blanking on what it's called) was an icon of this style.

However, in my humble opinion, if someone truly believes that the incidents behind the Hospitality of Abraham and Theophany icons were true manifestations of the Trinity, they would see no need to depict the Father this way. Also, it shows a distinct betrayal of what I was always told about icons, that they were only used to depict that which we have been allowed to see, and a betrayal of the arguments of the Seventh Ecumenical Council in favor of depicting God the Son in iconography.

That's just my two euros!

[IrishJohan]

Is it wrong to depict God The Father in an Icon?
Interesting question. I have wondered about this too, especially since reading St. Theodore the Studite's "On Holy Icons". Btw, St. Vladimir Seminary Press does a great service to Catholics and Orthodox with their series on the Fathers. The readability and portability of these writings is just wonderful.

Pax Christi,
John

[Photini]

A few months ago, I spoke at length with an older monk in Fort Myers. He brought up this subject. He said that once he was in Korea (I think, my memory is fuzzy), and was approached by a gentleman who saw this icon. The man said, "Your God looks very old, it is good that he has a young son to follow after him." So you see the kind of faulty thinking that can come from that icon.

"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." John 1:18

also:

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? John 14:9

[marciadietrich]

Related question, could someone point out a site that might explain the poses and representations of icons. Such as I can see Christ has a different "halo" than Mary, different than other saints. What the words or letters are (greek probably) that are in the halo or other parts of icons? Is there a signifigance in the type of robes, colors?

thanks :)

Marcia

[Oblio]

Come and See Icons (http://www.comeandseeicons.com) has some good explanations on many of their icons. A very good book is The Meaning of Icons by Lossky & Ouspensky.

Off the top of my head:

Christ always has W O N (The Great I AM in Greek) in His halo. There are also 9 dividing lines that represent the 9 ranks of angels in His halo.

IC XC == Ieosous Christos
S == C, Ch == X in Greek

MP TY == Mater Theou (Mother of God)

R == P, Y == U in Greek

The Three asterisks/stars on the Robe of Mary signify that she was a Virgin Before, During, and After the birth of Christ.

The Saints usually have prefixed AG (With the G being an upside down L) that stands for Agios or Holy (i.e. Saint). Saints holding a Cross are marytrs. A high forehead denotes wisdom and is often used for the Prophets and Apostles. Byzantine icons often have large eyes to symbolize having eyes to see.

I'll see if I can dig up more later

[Oblio]

Blue - Heaven, mystery, mystical life.
Green - Vegetation, general fertility, youth, freshness. In marytrs clothing it signifies that their blood nurtures the Church.
Brown - Earth and inert matter. In Clothing, Holy Poverty
Red - Blood, life, vitality, beauty. Orange-Red - fervor and spiritual purification.
Purple - Wealth and power
White - Divine world, purity, innocence and sometimes the 'Uncreated light'
Gold - Sanctity, Splendor, imperishable, the divine energy, the glory of God,and life in the Kingdom of God


Excerpted/condensed from Praying with Icons - Forest

[Philip]

Is there a signifigance in the type of robes, colors?

Everything has significance in Orthodoxy. I will leave the details to others.

[marciadietrich]

Oblio, thanks so much. Very helpful. :cool:

[Photini]

In many of the icons of Christ you will see Him clothed with a red or scarlet or purple robe beneath a blue one. This is to signify He was a King who clothed Himself in humility (blue was the color worn by servants and commoners).

You will see the Panagia the exact opposite....a blue robe beneath a red one. She was a humble servant made into a Queen, for she was chosen to bear the King Himself.

And usually you will see Martyrs holding a cross.