Choosing an Orthodox Church

[Chesterton]

If an American wants to join the Orthodox Church (and they live in a big city), they might have a choice among Greek, Antiochan, Russian, etc. If they have no particular cultural or national heritage affiliation with any of those, how should they decide which one to join, and is there any way it which it would it matter?

[Dorothea]

I suppose any of them you could fit into depending on the parish, but I would say because I've been to one and heard this, that the Antiochian may be the better or easiest route because usually their DL's are all in English.

[Anhelyna]

One easy way to tell where you will be most comfortable is to visit them all :)

Oh I mean that - just go - observe the Liturgy and go to the coffee hour afterwards and see how the people there react to the stranger in their midst.

You may well find that some are very welcoming - others may be more reserved .

One visit is actually not enough - we [ I'm including myself here even though I"m Catholic ] are used to people dropping in to see us - some come back - others don't. A second visit will tell you more.

[Bessie]

This was said to me by a former teacher and Orthodox priest when I asked him about Orthodoxy. I'm sure it isn't a hard and fast rule and probably differs from area to area, but I found his advice very helpful.

"Orthodoxy is a bit perplexing. You shouldn’t do anything until you’ve read THE ORTHODOX CHURCH by Timothy Ware (aka Archbishop Kallistos Ware). If you are still interested after reading that from cover to cover, then you need to start roaming from parish to parish in the area and sampling the worship experience. The Slavic style was the only thing that appealed to me because of the music and heavy Russian rituals --- but, I had already fallen in love with Russian history and that pulled me in. Check out everything and see how you feel. Orthodox ritual is designed to appeal to the senses, so see what appeals to yours! Test the basic friendliness of the people and the warmth (or lack thereof) of the reverend clergy. You will be immediately judged by the fact that you aren’t “of the flock” so-to-speak . . . and, by that, I mean of the ETHNIC group you’re visiting. Generally, the Greeks and Antiochians will be the friendliest; the Ukranians the most unwelcoming and the Russians somewhere in between. I suggest a visit to some OCA (Orthodox Church in America – formerly the “Metropolia” i.e. The Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America) parishes. They serve in Slavic style but in English and are open to American converts. Beware of rushing into things: Orthodoxy frequently appeals to Americans intellectually but one can’t handle it Liturgically; or it appeals to one Liturgically and intellectually but one can’t handle the ethnic pitfalls. Remember, whatever you do, you are converting to the original historic Christianity (not to a particular nationhood)."

Hopefully you can find something useful in it too!

Bessie

[Macarius]

Go to the one nearest to where you live. If it isn't xenophobic / if you're able to contact the priest and recieve discipleship / catechizing there, then stay there until God moves you. It is a tough balance - you need to find the right parish, but its important not to go church shopping.

If you happen to be on the West Coast of the USA, I'd recommend the OCA, but only because I know the bishop and most the priests and have found it to be a remarkably healthy diocese. The OCA as a whole, however, is having some difficulties due to a financial scandal... the Antiochians are solid (as Dorothea said), and so are the Greeks. You will tend to see a bit more of the ethnic preservation at large Greek parishes, since they tend to function as cultural centers for the local Greek community.

Ultimately, the Truth is the same - so long as you are able to recieve discipleship in the Truth (catechism) and then, once recieved, you are able to recieve the sacraments... then you've found the Church. The quality of music, sermons, etc don't impact the heart of the faith. Having it in a language you understand is important only for the catechetical purposes (it can also help with focus). The prayers are just as effective in Greek as they are in English, but they DO teach us as we pray them, and that's important.

If the parishoners challenge you (make you uncomfortable) that can actually HELP the spiritual life - so don't take a "cold" feeling from the locals as reason to leave. It may be a gift from God to teach you patience or any number of things. We must learn to be thankful in all things.

So check your closest parish. If it is good for catechizing you, then keep attending. If you find that catechism isn't available or is off-base in some way, or if the liturgy isn't in english, then go seeking another. Try to avoid shoping around as much as possible, and once you've settled in, stay until God moves you.

Hope that helps,
Macarius

[Chesterton]

Given these replies, I have to ask: Why would any Christian be unwelcoming or unfriendly to a stranger in their church? It seems very odd. If you're under command to love even your enemy, you had better be able to handle the much easier task of showing a little geniality to a stranger, shouldn't you?

[Bessie]

You know, I agree that it shouldn't happen, but sometimes it's understandable. Sometimes it's just a matter of fear, some heavily ethnic parishes are coming from areas of the world where they are used to persecution on various levels and are therefore automatically suspicious of outsiders.

In addition to that, while not in every situation, the Orthodox are sometimes viewed as quaint and anachronistic and sometimes even a tourist attraction. I'm not sure they always intend to be unwelcoming so much as simply assuming that everyone is window shopping unless they demonstrate otherwise. There is a difference between indifference and hostility.

On the other hand, when I was looking for a church I never encountered anything but welcoming people.

[Chesterton]

Okay, that is understandable I suppose.

This might sound like I'm nit-picking about words, but I'm trying to understand. If you join and attend at a Greek Orthodox Church, have you joined the Greek Orthodox Church, or just the Orthodox Church? Would you be welcome and able to take communion at any other Orthodox church, or not?

[Orthosdoxa]

Given these replies, I have to ask: Why would any Christian be unwelcoming or unfriendly to a stranger in their church? It seems very odd. If you're under command to love even your enemy, you had better be able to handle the much easier task of showing a little geniality to a stranger, shouldn't you?

No question, ALL Christians should be welcoming. And I have yet to step foot in an Orthodox church that isn't. However, there are horror stories of parishes that are more ethnic than they are Christian (more Greek than Orthodox, for example), and we just mention those as a warning. It's unlikely you'll run into it. But, there are a few ethnic enclaves who treat church as a social club for "their kind" and no one else, forgetting the Gospel to which they were called. May God be merciful to them.

You tend to hear these things mostly about Greek churches, but i have never had that experience, and I've been in many Greek churches. Usually the yia-yia's will want to smother me with hugs and kisses and insist that I eat something. :)

All that to say, don't worry about it; it's unlikely. :)

[Bessie]

To overly simplify things, all Eastern Orthodox churches are in communion with the other. Greeks, Antiochians, OCA, Russians, Ukranian, Serbian, etc etc are all welcome to share communion at each other's churches. The ethnic divisions are really indicating who is in charge of who. So, an Antiochian parish is under the Antiochian Bishop etc.

Normally in any given country once they are granted autonomy, the churches for that country stay that way. So, Russians should be under Russians, Greeks under Greeks, etc. With Missionary efforts this gets a bit more confusing, though. The situation in America is definitely not ideal and there are many who are working toward unity in America and one American church. This is going to take a long time, though.

Having said all that, someone who knows the correct vocabulary and can express things better should by all means come and correct me.

[Kristos]

If an American wants to join the Orthodox Church (and they live in a big city), they might have a choice among Greek, Antiochan, Russian, etc. If they have no particular cultural or national heritage affiliation with any of those, how should they decide which one to join, and is there any way it which it would it matter?

They should let someone else choose for them.

[Dorothea]

No question, ALL Christians should be welcoming. And I have yet to step foot in an Orthodox church that isn't. However, there are horror stories of parishes that are more ethnic than they are Christian (more Greek than Orthodox, for example), and we just mention those as a warning. It's unlikely you'll run into it. But, there are a few ethnic enclaves who treat church as a social club for "their kind" and no one else, forgetting the Gospel to which they were called. May God be merciful to them.

You tend to hear these things mostly about Greek churches, but i have never had that experience, and I've been in many Greek churches. Usually the yia-yia's will want to smother me with hugs and kisses and insist that I eat something. :)

All that to say, don't worry about it; it's unlikely. :)
Yes, I've heard that about Greek Churches as well, but I haven't really ran into that. More of a curiosity the yia yias gave us when we joined the church in the town we moved to (since we're military). But Father Lawrence, who is one of the sweetest priests, comes to visit our parish once and a while, and is the priest of an old OCA parish (that's around 100 years old). He said he really had to work with the members in being more welcoming to inquirers that would show up at his church because they weren't good at being welcoming. They were concerned about their church family and preserving their Serbian roots, etc. He said it's gotten better though.

[Chesterton]

What's a "yia yia"?

[Orthosdoxa]

An old Greek lady. Like a babushka. :)

[-Kyriaki-]

It's the word for grandmother.

I love the yiayias at my parish - the minute I walk into the hall it's "KOUKLAMOU!!! How are you, it's good to see you, eat some food you're too thin" (yes all in that one sentence)
One of them realised the other day that 'koukla koula' (koula being a greek nickname for Kyriaki) sounded funny together, so guess what I'm now nicknamed?

The little old ladies of a parish are wonderful, but you have to be nice to them. Beware of getting on their bad side - it's not easy to do, but if you do you'll have a hard time. But on their good side...you'll get loved and fed to death.

[Rowan]

I've been to non-Orthodox churches where I haven't been greeted, and it's less of an "Orthodox" thing and more of a "people" thing. I didn't really think it was "un-loving" either...it's not personal.

[Sothron]

I would do as suggested by checking out several parishes. I would like to say that the OCA offers services 100% in English so you will not be lost in translation. Archbishop Dimitri of the South for the OCA is a magnificent bishop, check out the diocese of the South on google for locations if one is near you.

[JustinHesychast]

I would preferably go with OCA or Antiochian. They tend to be less ethnic and have English services. Ethnic parishes rock and everything, but sometimes at my Greek church I feel a little out of place. Most people in the church actually speak Greek when they talk, too! And I haven't met any neat babushkas... but I have met a few nice and welcoming people.

Plus, I was always getting lost during Liturgy! Now I generally have it down pat and know what's going on, but it took awhile. ;)

[Mary of Bethany]

Okay, that is understandable I suppose.

This might sound like I'm nit-picking about words, but I'm trying to understand. If you join and attend at a Greek Orthodox Church, have you joined the Greek Orthodox Church, or just the Orthodox Church? Would you be welcome and able to take communion at any other Orthodox church, or not?

Orthodox is Orthodox. :) No one is a member of the Greek Orthodox Church, or the Russian Orthodox Church, or the Orthodox Church in America, or whatever other jurisdiction you can think of. These are for administrative purposes, and unfortunately, we don't yet have one American jurisdiction. But that doesn't matter, because we're all Orthodox and can receive the Holy Mysteries in any other Orthodox parish, as long as the Priest knows we're Orthodox and we have prepared ourselves to receive.

As far as which Orthodox parish to attend - it matters not, as long as you are able to be faithful to Christ.

Mary

Mary

[Chesterton]

Orthodox is Orthodox. :) No one is a member of the Greek Orthodox Church, or the Russian Orthodox Church, or the Orthodox Church in America, or whatever other jurisdiction you can think of.

Okay, that is what I was hoping actually. That's helpful. Thanks everyone for your responses.

By the way, I have attended services at an Antiochian, a Greek, and another (I'm not sure what it is, and there were no pews, standing room only), and the people at each one were very friendly.

[JustinHesychast]

Choose the one without the pews! ;) :P

[Kolya]

Choose the one without the pews! ;) :P

And make sure you have comfortable shoes!!!:D

[Chesterton]

...the Orthodox are sometimes viewed as quaint and anachronistic...

For the record, I agree with those who say ya'll are anachronistic. And given the state of this modern world, that is part of your glory. :)

[SpyridonOCA]

If an American wants to join the Orthodox Church (and they live in a big city), they might have a choice among Greek, Antiochan, Russian, etc. If they have no particular cultural or national heritage affiliation with any of those, how should they decide which one to join, and is there any way it which it would it matter?

Join the one which is closest to your home. If you don't feel comfortable there, you might want to find another one.

[pax_christiana]

Same question, different continent. I'm from the UK and am very interested in visiting an Orthodox Church but am having problems trying to decipher the tangled web of churches, lol.

I have bought some of the suggested reading material which I intend to read before doing anything else but wondered if someone could give me some information on the Orthdox Church in the UK.

Thanks,

Pax

[Lukaris]

Here are some Antiochian listings http://www.antiochian-orthodox.co.uk/parishes.htm Of course there are many Greek, Russian, etc. Orthodox churches too (esp in London). Also Greek Orthodox http://www.thyateira.org.uk/ Russian: http://www.sourozh.org/web/Map_of_Parishes

[JustinHesychast]

Same question, different continent. I'm from the UK and am very interested in visiting an Orthodox Church but am having problems trying to decipher the tangled web of churches, lol.

I have bought some of the suggested reading material which I intend to read before doing anything else but wondered if someone could give me some information on the Orthdox Church in the UK.

Thanks,

Pax

Just of note, if you ever get the chance, you should really visit St. John Monastery in Essex, England one day! :) I hear it's beautiful!

[Kreikkalainen]

Same question, different continent. I'm from the UK and am very interested in visiting an Orthodox Church but am having problems trying to decipher the tangled web of churches, lol.

I have bought some of the suggested reading material which I intend to read before doing anything else but wondered if someone could give me some information on the Orthdox Church in the UK.

Thanks,

Pax

Whereabouts do you live?

I spent 6 years of my life in England. I am still in touch with many orthodox people there. I may be able to help if the area is right!

The suggestion to visit the monastery in Essex is a great one.

London has around 20 greek parishes, plus at least 2 russian ones, plus romanian, serbian, antiochian etc. Other big cities also have (at least) greek churches, and in some cases others also.

Tell me more on the area and I'll tell you what I know!

[Kreikkalainen]

I've been to non-Orthodox churches where I haven't been greeted, and it's less of an "Orthodox" thing and more of a "people" thing. I didn't really think it was "un-loving" either...it's not personal.

Thank you for that. It had to be said at some point, and I'm glad it was said not by an (alphabetical order :P) Arab/ Bulgarian/ Georgian/ Greek/ Romanian/ Russian/ Serbian/ Ukrainian/ other "cradle" orthodox, but by somebody as objective as could be (if I remember correctly, in another post you said you are african-american?). I've visited all sorts of orthodox churches in all sorts of places & in the vast majority of situations I walked in, prayed, walked out, left & went on with my life. Perhaps I attracted a few looks of curiousity as a newcomer, but that was all. In the parish I currently worship in, it was more than a month after I started going most Saturdays & Sundays before someone actually talked to me, and that was only when I asked for something. It doesn't mean that parishioners don't want me there, or are unloving, unwelcoming or whatever. It means that humans tend to look after their lives and not intrude in yours just because you are within their range of visibility. If people get out of their ways to make us feel better, that's a reason to be grateful; if they don't, that's not a reason to be offended!

[Kreikkalainen]

Anyway, to our friends who wonder where to go, I would say it even depends on your character. I once met an english man who stuck to the Orthodox church & eventually converted, just because when he started being interested in churches & started attending around, the Greek church in the city where he lived was the only church where people didn't attack him with their leaflets, bulletins and all sorts of stuff after the service, in order to keep him and convert him (as the protestant churches that he visited were apparently doing). It was the only place where he could go, pray and be left in peace to go home :). Months later he approached the priest & finally after catechism he got chrismated :). When a russian patriarchate english-speaking parish got organised in the same city, he started going there mostly, for the practical reason that he understood more.

I mean to say, do you guys prefer being left in peace, or would you rather get attacked? :D In the end of the day, as others have said, try and see where you feel more comfortable :).

[SpyridonOCA]

I know I might get flack for saying this, but if you are a religious seeker, I recommend also visiting an Oriental Orthodox church. It wouldn't make much sense for us to say that you should choose the one which feels the most right for you while excluding Oriental Orthodoxy, since our differences are so superficial. If this is an issue you don't know much about, I recommend this article, from the former dean of St. Vladimir's Seminary:
http://www.svots.edu/Faculty/John-Erickson/articles/beyond-dialogue.html/

[Kreikkalainen]

Well, there is a separate CF forum for the orientals. I'm sure if our friends are interested, they will go and ask there. No need to cover it here :).

[pax_christiana]

Thanks for the replies, I live in Gloucestershire, so a bit out of the way of the biggest cities really. I think there might be one in Cheltenham, but need to find out more and find someone to go with, lol. Bit nervous of going by myself.

[cassc]

Thanks for the replies, I live in Gloucestershire, so a bit out of the way of the biggest cities really. I think there might be one in Cheltenham, but need to find out more and find someone to go with, lol. Bit nervous of going by myself.

If you are having trouble finding someone to go with try calling the Church and ask if they can have a parishioner meet you at the door and sit with you, answer questions etc. Now you may be saying- No way, I want to lend into the walls not bring more attention to myself- but you'll be greeted like a long lost cousin and people will be so happy to have you (this is really the best way to avoid the-no one said hi to be at this parish syndrome!)

[Anhelyna]

Hi pax Christiana

Can't think how I didn't see this before :(

Welcome to TAW.

The best thing I have found for info on Orthodoxy in the UK is a pdf downloadable from Google

] A DIRECTORY OF ENGLISH-SPEAKING ORTHODOX CHURCHES IN THE BRITISH ISLES (http://www.ststephentrust.org.uk/documents/orthodox_directory_2007.pdf)


from this site www.ststephentrust.org.uk/documents/ (http://www.ststephentrust.org.uk/documents/)orthodox_directory_2007.pdf

now I really have no idea as to it's accuracy - things can and do change . It quotes for Glasgow a Group meeting in St Bride's Church once per month - I'll admit I always thought is was in the University of Strathclyde's Chapel - so who knows ?

Phone numbers are given - so that could be a help. Beware though Greeks in England are not always very good at giving info over the phone :( Don't try rinigng the Greek Orthodox Cathedral in London - they are worse than useless - but the Cathedral is gorgeous - wonderful woodwork and the people are very friendly .

If you want any more unofficial info do PM me - I may be Catholic - but I do go to Orthodox Churches from time to time :)

[Kreikkalainen]

Thanks for the replies, I live in Gloucestershire, so a bit out of the way of the biggest cities really. I think there might be one in Cheltenham, but need to find out more and find someone to go with, lol. Bit nervous of going by myself.

Gloucestershire... bit challenging situation :). Would Bristol or Bath work? Cardiff perhaps too far away?

I never lived in the west - I was south coast for a time & east Anglia for some other time. So I am not personally familiar with the parishes in the west. But I have heard very good words about the parish in Bath. It's under the Greek Archdiocese but slavic in tradition (I understand the original parishioners were Orthodox Ukies & Poles who settled in the area after the war). Worship should be in english.

That's in short - I'll try to dig up some more info for you & I'll send a PM with names & stuff when I get the chance.

[Akathist]

My take is a bit different then most of what is said here.

In Orthodoxy nearly all the time, the Priest is our Spiritual Father and that role is very important as we not only go to him for confession but also get advice. That relationship is more important then found in protestant ministers and congregations (from my experience.)

So, I suggest that you visit the parishes that are close enough to you that you know you will want to keep going. But that you also call to schedule time time to meet with the Priest there (sometimes there are more then one Priest so ask for who ever not just the one who is in the hightest position.) Meet with the Priest and see if you could be comfortable with him.

Personally, having the services in english was absolutely essential. I would drive a long distance if needed to attend services in English rather then even ones partially in another language. In my parish all but one hymn is in English. The one hymn that is in Slavanic (which is like Russian) is a repeat of the same hymn we sing in english.

So, if I moved to a new city, the first thing I would look for was an OCA Church or an Antiochian Church or a Carpo-Russian (spelling?). Many many Russian parishes have the services all in english too so I would check them out. I would start with the first english speaking parish that was closest to my home. I would go and visit it at least once. Then call to talk to the Priest preferably in person. (Or try to talk to him at coffee hour after the service if there is one.)

Then I would visit the next one or two parishes depending upon their distance.

My decision would be based upon the Priest though more then upon anything else.

[Akathist]

Reading through the thread there is one thing to consider when visiting an Orthodox Church. It is common to not be "greeted" when you enter the main part of the Church itself. Most of the time prayers have already started to be chanted or read. The time in the service right from entering is a time of prayer.

However, expect that there will be one or two people who will acknowledge you. You may have someone remind you that the Eucharist is for only Orthodox (because this problem does happen sometimes.) In my parish there is a reader who makes sure to ask if someone is Orthodox or not if they are visiting and he lets the Priest know.

Also, there is a blessed bread that is given out during or after the service. That is not the Eucharist. It is a sign of hospitality to give a piece of it to a visitor. Just say thanks and eat it right away being careful not to drop crumbs.

Right after the service is over, there are often prayers read or chanted for a bit. So, sometimes there is no way to really greet guests then as well.

But stick around for the "coffee hour" or at least try to find the fellowship hall were even if there is no food there will probably be some people standing around chatting. That is were we greet guests.

[SpyridonOCA]

I also recommend having coffee with a priest to get to know him.

[Philothei]

they are worse than useless -


Hey we are notorious for confusing people giving "approximate" (as opposite to exact) directions :D

[ThomasV]

TRY THIS LINK Sts (http://www.stconstantineandhelen.org/) IF YOU LIVE IN NYC OR BROOKLYN


IF NOT HERE IS A GOOD SITE TO FIND A CHURCH Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (http://www.goarch.org/)