Lying and deception

[Xpycoctomos]

This thread is inspired by an OBOB thread. Is it always wrong to lie (that is, lead someone to believe something other than the truth).

The classic example is if you are hiding Jews in your household during WWII and a Nazi soldier comes to your door and asks you a series of questions where it would take outright deception (and even a boldfaced lie) to hide the fact that you have Jewish people hiding in your attic. Obviously you are doing this with the intent to save their lives and it seems quite evident to you that if you tell them the truth or even lead them for a second towards the truth, they will do all they can to find them and take them away to these rumored death camps (not rumors now, but at the time...).

Now, it's an example, but further examples can be offered from the mundane to the very serious.

Another example is when the monks on Mt Athos hid Jewish women and children on the island during WWII. Is that an example of "holy deception" ? lol

Anyway, ther you have it. Interested in your thoughts and any Orthodox stance, if there is a single one.

Xpy

[Matrona]

I think there's a good reason why the commandment says "you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor", not "you shall not lie", because there are reasons to lie that are for the greater good, like saving people in danger or sparing someone's feelings. What's wrong and sinful are damaging lies that hurt people, like telling a jury that your neighbor molested your kids when you know he did no such thing.

[Kolya]

I think there's a good reason why the commandment says "you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor", not "you shall not lie", because there are reasons to lie that are for the greater good, like saving people in danger or sparing someone's feelings. What's wrong and sinful are damaging lies that hurt people, like telling a jury that your neighbor molested your kids when you know he did no such thing.

I agree with you entirely.:thumbsup:

On a lighter note when I was still a Protestant, our Sunday School teacher scrambled up bible texts which we had to unscramble as part of a test.
One of the scrambled texts which I thought quite apt was "Lying lips are... a very present help in trouble!" ;)

[Xpycoctomos]

in case you are interested, here is the OBOB thread. http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7237973

[rusmeister]

Hey, Matrona, I'd rep your signature, but... :P

You wouldn't make it a day in Russia if you thought "Thou shalt not lie" is a commandment.
That said, it's obviously something to be avoided, obviously.

The question really revolves around who wants to know what and why. It is not good stewardship of knowledge to reveal all of your thoughts to all people - especially as some of it may not be fact, but only your perception. But even when it is fact, you may not be giving knowledge into good hands. If it is coerced from you, all the more so.

[Matrona]

One of the scrambled texts which I thought quite apt was "Lying lips are... a very present help in trouble!" ;)

LOL! That's right up there with Chrisbot's "I'll burn that bridge when I get to it!" :D

[Matrona]

You wouldn't make it a day in Russia if you thought "Thou shalt not lie" is a commandment.
That said, it's obviously something to be avoided, obviously.

Hey, rus, is it true that "rival" is the same word as "dead" in Russian? (They said so on Law & Order.) Because if it is, what's that word? - 'cause I've got a lot of rival/deads. ;)

[Kolya]

LOL! That's right up there with Chrisbot's "I'll burn that bridge when I get to it!" :D

Yes, I really miss old Chrisbot! I can't see why they can't get one programmed for this 'new' CF.:confused:

[Chesterton]

The story in the Book of Joshua came to mind when I read your post. Rahab the prostitute hides Joshua's spies and lies about them to the king's men, ultimately aiding in the defeat of Jericho. This "good work" of hers is mentioned in Hebrews 11:31 and James 2:25.

[Xpycoctomos]

Hey, Matrona, I'd rep your signature, but... :P

You wouldn't make it a day in Russia if you thought "Thou shalt not lie" is a commandment.
That said, it's obviously something to be avoided, obviously.

The question really revolves around who wants to know what and why. It is not good stewardship of knowledge to reveal all of your thoughts to all people - especially as some of it may not be fact, but only your perception. But even when it is fact, you may not be giving knowledge into good hands. If it is coerced from you, all the more so.

It's interesting you bring up Russia and lying. I waas going to bring this up but had nothing to verify it personally. Perhaps you could comment on it.

Some years ago on NPR they did a report about Russia and it's culture. THey talked a bit about how in Russia, their idea of what a lie is is different from our western and stricter idea of a lie. It's been a LOOOONG time since i heard this but I remember that an example given was if someone calls in sick, they may not be actually sick, but they just needed a day away from work and that hardly anyone over there would consider that a "lie". To them, a lie would be something that has an unjustified ill-effect on other people. (whereas here we tend to understand that word as anything that is not the truth, or even a simple deception).

Can you comment, correct or add to what I have said?

Thanks Rus,

Xpy

[Assisi]

subscribing.

:wave:

[Macarius]

The key, at least to me, is to remember the command to love first and foremost. Do that which is most loving and, de-facto, you are fulfilling the Law and the Prophets.

"Do not lie" is like a proverb. It is true, but it is true on principle. In a fallen world it may be the lesser of two evils.

[Xpycoctomos]

By the way, I am reading. I appreciate everyone's posts.

Does anyone have something from the Churchfathers on the matter or examples when deception was used by saints or holy people for the protection of others (out of love)

[hungrytiger]

I don't think I've heard much addressed to this specfically, but it makes me think of what I've read of the Orthodox stance on war.

Stuff like this
The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople Bartholomew I (2003) proclaimed that only "in a few specific cases the Orthodox Church forgives an armed defense against oppression and violence" (emphasis added; 262). Bartholomew I instead set forth the axioms that it is better "to be treated with injustice ourselves than to do injustice to others" (263), for "war and violence are never means used by God in order to achieve a [just] result" (emphasis added; 262). An initial reading of these statements reveals an uncompromising condemnation warfare, even in self-defense. Yet an armed defense is still theologically forgivable - a seeming contradiction. The Orthodox position on war could therefore be interpreted as setting forth a curious duplicity.
http://www.theandros.com/justwar.html

And
...war may be an unavoidable alternative, but it nevertheless remains an evil. Virtually absent in the tradition is any mention of a “just” war, much less a “good” war. The tradition also precludes the possibility of a crusade. For the Eastern Orthodox tradition, I concluded, war can be seen only as a “necessary evil,” with all the difficulty and imprecision such a designation carries.
The East did not seek to answer questions concerning the correct conditions for entering war and the correct conduct of war on the basis of the possibility of a “just war,” precisely because it did not hold to such a view. Its view of war, unlike that of the West, was that it is a necessary evil. The peace ideal continued to remain normative, and no theoretical efforts were made to make conduct of war into a positive norm. In short, no case can be made for the existence of an Orthodox just-war theory.
http://incommunion.org/articles/previous-issues/no-just-war-in-the-fathers

War is not a good thing, neither are lies. But sometimes we as mere humans can't see a better way. We fall short of God's goodness. But God is gracious. And all we can do is try and then come to Him repenting and trusting in His mercy.

I hope I made some sense. Please forgive me. I'm young in the faith and probably don't know what I'm talking about.

[Shubunkin]

Oh what gets me is if I pass on information that was wrong - but I believed to be the truth, and then told I was lying, when I wasn't - at the time. Just mistaken! :o

[hungrytiger]

I'm also reminded of the story of Elder Porphyrios trying to get to Mount Athos when he was a boy. He started to run away to there a few times but turned back the first times. He lead the people he was working for to believe that he was visiting his mother. And the final time he did make it, he and the monk that helped him told a little lie so that he could go.

Here's a passage from the biography in Wounded by Love where he meets a monk after he's run away and is on a boat hoping to get to Mount Athos.
At one point a tall elderly and venerable-looking monk with a long beard and with a haversack on his back walked up. He came towards me. He took a seat on a bench and motioned me to sit down too.

"Where are you going, my boy?" he asked.

"To the Holy Mountain," I replied.

"And what are you going to do there?"

Concealing the truth, I answered, "I'm going to work."

"Come to Kavsokalyvia," he said. "That's where I live with my brother in a hermitage in the desert. Come along, my boy, and we'll all glorify Christ together." Then he asked me:

"What books do you read, my boy?"

"The Letter of Christ, the Letter of our Lady, and the Life of Saint John the Hut-dweller," I answered. "I haven't been much to school."

He made no comment about the books, about whether they were good or not.

"Come with me," he said. "We've got work there and we'll pay you. And . . . we might even make a monk of you!"

As soon as I heard that word, a smile crossed my face. Then he said to me, "Listen, my boy, don't be upset at what I'm going to tell you. Young boys are not permitted on the Holy Mountain. You're very young and they're prohibited from allowing you to enter."

My face fell.

"But don't worry," he said, "we'll tell a little lie and God will forgive us. In God's eyes it won't be a lie but a truth, because you love Christ and you want to go to the Holy Mountain to worship Christ. So whoever asks you, 'What's your relationship to the elder?' you'll reply, 'He's my uncle.' And I'll say that you're my nephew, my sister's son."

Lots of other monks crowded onto the boat. Night fell. The monks all huddled close together and each took out his food. We sat close to them too. The elder gave me bread to eat.

"What's your relationship to the boy, holy confessor?" they all asked.

"He's my sister's son, my nephew. My sister has died and because he's an orphan I've taken him with me."

[Xpycoctomos]

I don't think I've heard much addressed to this specfically, but it makes me think of what I've read of the Orthodox stance on war.

Stuff like this

http://www.theandros.com/justwar.html

And


http://incommunion.org/articles/previous-issues/no-just-war-in-the-fathers

War is not a good thing, neither are lies. But sometimes we as mere humans can't see a better way. We fall short of God's goodness. But God is gracious. And all we can do is try and then come to Him repenting and trusting in His mercy.

I hope I made some sense. Please forgive me. I'm young in the faith and probably don't know what I'm talking about.

You definitely made sense and I appreciate the EP quotes. I thought they were very thought-provoking. However, do you see how some might say that...
to be treated with injustice ourselves than to do injustice to others" (263), for "war and violence are never means used by God in order to achieve a [just] result"
is perhaps not applicable to lying to the nazi. Becuase in this case it is not to save your own skin, but the skin of an innocent person.

I honestly cannot say with any certainty that telling the truth in this case is somehow admirable to lying in order to save others from injustice. I strongly lean towards the former as not only being less admirable, but cowardly and perhaps something that we will need to answer for on the judgement day.

I just don't knwo if I am convinced that a lie is a lie is a lie if you get my drift. To suggest such seems arbitrary... like we are placed here to follow a series of arbitrary rules regardless of the context. It seems... un-human.

I'm definitely not preaching to you. I really appreciated the quotes and any more you have to offer.

Xpy

[hungrytiger]

You definitely made sense
Oh, good. :) Sometimes my thoughts only make sense in my own head. Once I say (or write) them out, somehow they no longer seem quite so coherent. ^_^

and I appreciate the EP quotes. I thought they were very thought-provoking.
Oh, just in case it wasn't clear. Only the first quote quoted the EP. The other two were from another source.

However, do you see how some might say that...
to be treated with injustice ourselves than to do injustice to others" (263), for "war and violence are never means used by God in order to achieve a [just] result"
is perhaps not applicable to lying to the nazi. Becuase in this case it is not to save your own skin, but the skin of an innocent person.
I can certainly see that, yes. I was meaning to address more the general idea of lying/deception than any one example. I don't know what would be the best thing to do in that particular situation. I suppose that I would think to lie, but I also think that that lying would be something I would need to repent of. Part of why it made me think of the "just war" stuff was becasue there seemed to be a similar kind of deal there, where something could be seen as always wrong and yet it kind'a acknowledged that in certain circumstances in our fallen world where we don't know what else to do. These are hard questions.

I honestly cannot say with any certainty that telling the truth in this case is somehow admirable to lying in order to save others from injustice. I strongly lean towards the former as not only being less admirable, but cowardly and perhaps something that we will need to answer for on the judgement day.
Yes, it does seem more important, more loving to save another from injustice. There's nothing more important than loving God and one another. And even if to lie is always a sin -- love covers a multitude of sins.

But if to lie is to sin, I trust that God will not tempt us beyond what we can stand and will always provide us a way out. And then your either/or would be a false choice. We may not find the third choice. We may fail. But that doesn't make it right. Perhaps it just shows that we're finite, fallen, and human. Still I believe we can come to Him and lean on His mercy, especially if we did it out of love.

There are many other things like this: fasting, killing, divorce, remarriage . . . One can always think of extreme cases and exceptions. But that doesn't change the general rule or ideal. It just proves that there's a higher rule: Love.

I just don't knwo if I am convinced that a lie is a lie is a lie if you get my drift. To suggest such seems arbitrary... like we are placed here to follow a series of arbitrary rules regardless of the context. It seems... un-human.
I don't know that I'm fully convinced either. But I guess it's something that I feel I've been somewhat convicted about myself. When I was younger I lied a lot. :blush: I saw no real harm in it. Then I came to point were I was, hm, shall I say, actively questioning my beliefs. I wasn't quite sure what I would find, but I told myself I wanted to find the truth and began to feel how important the truth was. I began to feel like everytime I told I lie I injured the truth. I felt so lost and it was like everytime I told a lie I was just contributing to this, if not for me then for someone else. The truth matters. God is truth. A lie is me choosing to put something between me and the truth; it seperates me from God.

Woah. I suppose that sounds kind'a extreme there. But that's how I felt.

Following arbitrary rules regardless of context does sound un-human. But that's not how I see this. I see it more as we are supposed to love God and neighbor. The rest of it is just explaining how. We're fallen beings in a fallen world and we don't know how to love. Telling the truth is just a way of loving God and each other. If it's not that, it is nothing.

I'm definitely not preaching to you. I really appreciated the quotes and any more you have to offer.

Xpy
Oh, good, 'cause I wasn't taking it as preaching. :) I hope I don't come accross as preachy either. It's an interesting topic and I'm enjoying exploring it with all of you.

[Vasileios]

The story of the elder Porphyrios is what came to my mind when I saw the OP. I'm glad she posted it! :)

[hungrytiger]

The story of the elder Porphyrios is what came to my mind when I saw the OP. I'm glad she posted it! :)
I've been meaning to thank you for recommending that book, Vasileios :hug: It has to be one of the best I've ever read! Thank you!