Announcement !!! About the Holy Spirit ... does anyone care that it is not in the SoF

[Philothei]

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7216059&page=25

If you have a problem with ommiting the H.S. from the SoF... please come and discuss....

Thanks :):wave:

[DeaconDean]

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7216059&page=25

If you have a problem with ommiting the H.S. from the SoF... please come and discuss....

Thanks :):wave:

I think you are mistaken.

We worship one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Isaiah 44:6-8; Exodus 3:15). God is three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who share one essence--the Trinity (John 6:27; John 1:1, 14; Romans 8:9; Hebrews 1:2-3).


While there is no one certain expressed sentence on just the Holy Spirit, it is stated up front that we serve the trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

So technically, there is a statement concerning the Holy Spirit in the site-wide SoF.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Philothei]

There is no description of the Holy Spirit. if I am mistaken then how come the phrase "I believe in the Holy Spirti the Lord, the Giver of Life...." is the Holy Spirit the Giver of life Dn??

You said "technically" well there you go... that does not cover the theological view of the spirit only the technical.

How come we have one expressing the Father the Son and not the Spirit? Is the Spirit important in our lives as Christians??

[rusmeister]

Speaking for the northern fundamental Baptist churches I grew up in, nothing was ever taught about early Church history (or any history at all prior to the Reformation - almost as if the Holy Spirit had taken a 1500 year vacation), nor was the Creed ever mentioned. Therefore I doubt that most Baptists would realize the importance of this. Beyond remembering Him at baptism services, He never got much mention outside of direct references from Scripture.

Maybe the Baptists of today are much more Trinitarian than that. But I don't see why they would be.

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7216059&page=25

If you have a problem with ommiting the H.S. from the SoF... please come and discuss....

Thanks :):wave:

Omitting High School from the Son's of Frank? Well, I for one support home schooling!

:P

[DeaconDean]

There is no description of the Holy Spirit. if I am mistaken then how come the phrase "I believe in the Holy Spirti the Lord, the Giver of Life...." is the Holy Spirit the Giver of life Dn??

To be specific, the Holy Spirit did not give life, in a technical sense.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." -Gen. 2:7 (KJV)

Even the soul of man is refered to as having come from God:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." -Ecc. 12:7 (KJV)

Speaking for the northern fundamental Baptist churches I grew up in, nothing was ever taught about early Church history (or any history at all prior to the Reformation - almost as if the Holy Spirit had taken a 1500 year vacation), nor was the Creed ever mentioned. Therefore I doubt that most Baptists would realize the importance of this. Beyond remembering Him at baptism services, He never got much mention outside of direct references from Scripture.

And just for reference my brother, we Baptists, place a great deal of emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit especally when it comes to the matter of salvation.

THe whole of John 16:8-10 is the work of the Holy Spirit now in this world to bring mankind to salvation.

You said "technically" well there you go... that does not cover the theological view of the spirit only the technical.


We are not talking about theological issues when it comes to the site-wide Sof.

All that is expressed is a belief in the Holy Spirit as the third person of the God-head.

Individual congregational areas are left to their own devices as to how they want to deal with expressed statements concerning the Holy Spirit.

For example:

The Philadelphia Baptist Association of 1742 issued this statement concerning the "Trinity:"

Chapter 2

Of God and of the Holy Trinity


THE LORD OUR GOD is but one only living, and true God;1 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn1) whose subsistence is in and of Himself,2 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn2) infinite in being and perfections, whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but Himself;3 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn3) a most pure spirit,4 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn4) invisible, without body, parts or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto,5 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn5) who is immutable, immense,7 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn7) eternal,8 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn8) incomprehensible, almighty,9 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn9) every way infinite, most holy,10 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn10) most wise, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,11 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn11) for His own glory,12 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn12) most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression and sin, the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him,13 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn13) and withal most just, and terrible in His judgements,14 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn14) hating all sin,15 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn15) and will by no means clear the guilty.16 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn16)

God, having all life,17 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn17) glory,18 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn18) goodness,19 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn19) blessedness, in and of Himself, is alone in, and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which He hath made, nor deriving any glory from them,20 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn20) but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them, He is the alone fountain of all being of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things,21 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn21) and He hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever Himself pleaseth;22 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn22) in His sight all things are open and manifest,23 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn23) His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent or uncertain,24 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn24) He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works,25 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn25) and in all His commands; to Him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship,26 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn26) service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever He is further pleased to require of them.

In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word (or Son), and Holy Spirit,27 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn27) of one substance, power and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided;28 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn28) the Father is of none neither begotten nor proceeding, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father,29 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn29) the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son,all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar, relative properties, and personal relations which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on Him.
Footnotes:
1. 1Co 8:4,6; Dt 6:4.
2. Jer 10:10; Isa 48:12.
3. Ex 3:14.
4. Jn 4:24.
5. 1Ti 1:17; Dt 4:15-16.
6. Mal 3:6.
7. 1Ki 8:27; Jer 23:23.
8. Ps 90:2.
9. Ge 17:1.
10. Isa 6:3.
11. Ps 115:3; Isa 46:10.
12. Pr 16:4; Ro 11:36.
13. Ex 34:6-7; Heb 11:6.
14. Ne 9:32-33.
15. Ps 5:5-6.
16. Ex 34:7; Na 1:2-3.
17. Jn 5:26.
18. Ps 148:13.
19. Ps 119:68.
20. Job 22:2-3.
21. Ro 11:34-36.
22. Da 4:25,34-35.
23. Heb 4:13.
24. Eze 11:5; Ac 15:18.
25. Ps 145:17.
26. Rev 5:12-14.
27. 1Jn 5:7; Mt 28:19; 2Co 13:14.
28. Ex 3:14; Jn 14:11; 1Co 8:6.
29. Jn 1:14,18. 30. Jn 15:26; Gal 4:6.

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm

And this just so happens, to be one of the "standards" we use here in the Baptist area.

The new owner does not want to get overly technical when comes to a general statement on what he wants. However, we can, and have.

And if you want to know what standard I enforce here in the Baptist area, here it is:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6954102

I'm sorry if the site-wide SoF does not have a disertation on the Holy Spirit. The owner did not want it that way.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Thekla]

To be specific, the Holy Spirit did not give life, in a technical sense.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." -Gen. 2:7 (KJV)



Holy Spirit

in Greek, Agia Pneuma literally :

agia (holy, set aside)
pneuma (breath, spirit)

[Philothei]

I'm sorry if the site-wide SoF does not have a disertation on the Holy Spirit. The owner did not want it that way.


The problem was and is that the owner did not communicate with the members these changes..

Thank YOU for communicating what the owner "wants". It is good thing to know that although this site remains Christian still is not theological.... and still we consider Chritianity to be an ideology on the other hand we do not want to be "thelogizing" ... neat.

Still then even "technically" it is not Christian since it is not based on Christian values rather an "idea" of Christianity....now more relativistic can you get than that?

Adding the "Giver of life" is not adding a dissortation by no means. What can possibly be the "debate" adding that phrase? That the Spirit of God (blown into Adam BTW, the Breath of God is the Spirit) which also was hovering above the waters before the world was made it it in Genesis-would make such a big theological debate for everyone here?

No, I believe it is the unwillingness of some to accept something that is 2,000 years old... versus modern ideology. Somethings you "cannot" modernize or they lose their message...Christian message and beliefs are eternal, keeping the Holy Spirit as a Giver of Life is one of them. The Holy Spirit is present in Baptism and it is in the Bible that says that we are "baptized" in it. In Pentacost it is given to the Apostles, in the Acts it is the Spirit that moves the communities of God to be formed and keeps the Church going. .... Of course it is the Giver of life of eternal life as well as earthly life ... it gave life to Jesus in His mother's wormb that is why He is the Giver of life because through Him we have life eternal with the incarnation of Christ.

Instead of teaching ideology Christ taught christianity and salvation .... It is not just another religion but THE religion....

And just for reference my brother, we Baptists, place a great deal of emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit especally when it comes to the matter of salvation.

THe whole of John 16:8-10 is the work of the Holy Spirit now in this world to bring mankind to salvation.



If the Holy Spirit gives us salvation then it is the "Giver of life" that is eternal life... so what is the problem here??

[DeaconDean]

If the Holy Spirit gives us salvation then it is the "Giver of life" that is eternal life... so what is the problem here??

Judging by the way you carry the Nicene Creed as part of your signature, I guess your either Orthodox, Angelican, or Catholic.

You know Sister, all these years I thought it was Jesus Christ who died on the cross for our sins that provides us with eternal life. Our belief in the risen Savior is what gives us eternal life. Now I find out that it is the Holy Spirit that gives eternal life.

Who'd a thunk it.

Adding the "Giver of life" is not adding a dissortation by no means. What can possibly be the "debate" adding that phrase?

Because the Holy Spirit does not grant "eternal life." That's why! Least wise that is how we "Baptists" see it.

The Holy Spirit's work in this world is to convict us of our sins, and because of our sins, the judgment that is to befall us, and our lack of righteousness in God's eyes. He also gives us the faith to belive and repent, but He does not "grant" us eternal life. The Son does that.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -Jn. 3:16 (KJV)

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." -Rom. 10:9 (KJV)

I notice here in the scriptures that it does not say:

"whoseoever believeth in the Holy Spirit should not perish, but have everlasting life."

And neither does it say:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Holy Spirit, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

I may be spliting hairs here, but it isn't the Holy Spirit that gives us etenal life, but our confession and belief in the risen Saviour.

Let me also add that the 1925 Baptist Faith and Message says:

4. THE WAY OF SALVATION
The salvation of sinners is wholly of grace, through the mediatorial office of the Son of God, who by the Holy Spirit was born of the Virgin Mary and took upon him our nature, yet without sin; honored the divine law by his personal obedience and made atonement for our sins by his death. Being risen from the dead, he is now enthroned in heaven, and, uniting in his person the tenderest sympathies with divine perfections, he is in every way qualified to be a compassionate and all-sufficient Saviour.

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/1925bfam.htm

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Philothei]

You missunderstand the importance of the H.S. in the salvation because you do not understand proper Trinitarian theology. The Father the Son and Holy Spirit is working in unison together... Nothing that the Father does does it alone neither than the Son acts on his own accord and the Holy Spirit in that sense acts not in his own but from the Father via the Son who send it.... It works in people's heart to bring about Salvation. To say the Spirit gives life IS the same as the Father and Son also does... It is called the Trinity and the actions are done "together" plain orthodox theology tells us that ...not t brainer. Look in the Gospel of John it does say that the Son does nothing with the consent of theFather....

BTW I am Eastern Orthodox... then again they should not have taken away the faith icons... there should have been an option.

[ImmersionX]

I want the faith icons back!

Also, I see the OP's point. Keep discussing! Good thread.

[Thekla]

a question: what is grace ?

[DeaconDean]

To repeat, and to make it as simple as possible.

LeeD, the new owner of the site, did not want long expressions. He wanted a simple statement and that is what he got.

Plain and simple.

Now if each individual area wants a longer discussion included in their FSG's, that is another matter. Which we do.

You missunderstand the importance of the H.S. in the salvation because you do not understand proper Trinitarian theology.

I resent that remark. And I resent that accusation!

Let me show you what I was taught:

"It is the special office of the Spirit to convince the world of sin; to reveal Christ, to regenerate the soul, to lead men to the exercise of faith and repentance; to dwell in those whom He thus renews, as a principle of a new and divine life. By this indwelling of the Spirit, believers are united to Christ, and to one another, so that they form one body. This is the foundation of the communion of saints, making them one in faith, one in love, one in their inward life, and one in their hopes and final destiny."

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Theology Proper, Chapter VIII, The Office of the Holy Spirit, The Spirit's Office in the Work of Regeneration, Section 4.

The duty of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, to reveal Christ, then to regenerate them and lead them to faith and repentance.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic1.pdf (http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/hodge_systematic1.pdf)

Hodge goes further to say:

"Regeneration an Act of God.

Regeneration is an act of God. It is not simply referred to Him as its giver, and, in that sense, its author, as He is the giver of faith and of repentance. It is not an act which, by argument and persuasion, or by moral power, He induces the sinner to perform. But it is an act of which He is the agent. It is God who regenerates. The soul is regenerated. In this sense the soul is passive in regeneration, which (subjectively considered) is a change wrought in us, and not an act performed by us."

Regeneration an Act of God’s Power.


Regeneration is not only an act of God, but also an act of his almighty power. Agreeably to the express declarations of the Scriptures, it is so presented in the Symbols of the Protestant churches. If an act of omnipotence, it is certainly efficacious, for nothing can resist almighty power...The assertion that regeneration is an act of God’s omnipotence, is, and is intended to be, a denial that it is an act of moral suasion. It is an affirmation that it is “physical” in the old sense of that word, as opposed to moral; and that it is immediate, as
opposed to mediate, or through or by the truth."

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XV, Regeneration,
Regeneration an Act of God., Section 1.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf (http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/hodge_systematic3.pdf)

Charles Hodge was also "hip" to the doctrine that faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit came only after regeneration:

"God, or the Spirit of God, testifies to the truth of the Scriptures and of the doctrines which they contain. This testimony, as has been seen, is partly external, consisting in prophecies and miracles, partly in the nature of the truths themselves as related to the intellectual and moral elements of the soul, and partly special and supernatural. Unrenewed men may feel the power of the two former kinds of testimony, and believe with a faith either merely intellectual and speculative, or with what may be called from its ground, a moral faith, which is only temporary. The spiritual form of testimony is confined to the regenerated. It is, of course, inscrutable. The operations of the Spirit do not reveal themselves in the consciousness otherwise than by their effects. We know that men are born of the Spirit, that the Spirit dwells in the people of God and continually influences their thoughts, feelings, and actions. But we know this only from the teaching of the Bible, not because we are conscious of his operations. “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” (John iii.8.)"

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XVI, Faith, Section 4, Faith and Knowledge,
What is meant by the Testimony of the Spirit, p. 58.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf (http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/hodge_systematic3.pdf)

He goes further on to show:

Proof from Express Declarations of Scripture.

"That this is the Scriptural doctrine on the subject is plain from the express declarations of the Scriptures. Our Lord promised to send the Spirit for this very purpose. “He will reprove the world of sin,” especially of the sin of not believing in Christ; “and of righteousness,” that is, of his righteousness, — the rightfulness of his claims to be regarded and received as the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh, and the Saviour of the world, “and of judgment,” that is, of the final overthrow of the kingdom of darkness and triumph of the kingdom of light. (John xvi. 8.) Faith, therefore, is always represented in Scripture as one of the fruits of the Spirit, as the gift of God, as the product of his energy (Colossians ii. 12)."


Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XVI, Faith, Faith and Knowledge,
Proof from Express Declarations of Scripture., Section 1, p. 59

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf (http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/hodge_systematic3.pdf)

It is very clear from Hodge's Systematic Theology, that the work of the Holy Spirit follows as such:

The Holy Spirit comes upon the sinner, works from within to convict the heart of sin, regenerates the sinner, gives the sinner the faith to believe and repent, then indwells the sinner.

Only after regeneration, faith and repentance has taken place, does the Holy Spirit indwell the believer.

I have Hodge's Systematic Theology, both in the three volume set, and on cd.

And in Volume I, he addresses the aspect of God as a trinity. And as a trinity, he addresses how each one works. And in volume I he addresse the Holy Spirit's work in salvation.

And how does the Holy Spirit work in salvation?

As I said before:

1) Conviction

2) Regeneration

3) Faith is given and the exercise of faith and repentance

4) Indwelling after repentance.

So let me repeat myself:


It is the special office of the Spirit to convince the world of sin; to reveal Christ, to regenerate the soul, to lead men to the exercise of faith and repentance; to dwell in those whom He thus renews,


Sorry, but its not's me who don't understand.

And just one other minor point I'd like to add:

This is the Baptist area, and I would greatly appreciate you not trying to teach EO doctrine here.

Thank you and

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Thekla]

I must admit, I do not know much if anything about the Baptist confession, so I can only share (some) of my own concerns.

The SoF has undergone one revision to correct a rather serious error regarding the Holy Spirit but at present still contains what I think is a seriously flawed implication.

The Holy Spirit is mentioned twice: in the definition of the Trinity, and as present at the incarnation of Christ.

This leaves the impression that the Holy Spirit "entered history" only once - at the incarnation. As the incarnation was the way that Christ, God and man entered history, it can be understood from this that the Holy Spirit does not remain as an active presence in human Christian life.

Yet in John 14:16, 14:26, 16:7 Christ Himself says otherwise; in Acts, the Holy Spirit comes upon the apostles as promised. Do we think that the Holy Spirit was only available to the apostles; do we believe that the Comforter is absent from Christian life ?

In an interview, the owner remarked that CF was (in part) a place for people to come and learn about Christ/Christianity. Is it not the Holy Spirit that teaches us and leads us in all truth ?

I am concerned that those new to Christ will not learn properly the importance of the Holy Spirit for Christians; and will possibly think that since the Holy Spirit is not still active among us, that the Christian God is not unlike the god of the deists, gnostics and neo-platonists : removed, absent from our life, disinterested.

Two more concerns:
At my last reading of the revised SoF (last night), power (in "Power of the Holy Spirit) was capitalized - a proper noun. Who is this person, "Power" ?

God created time and "entered" history. The birth of Christ is an historical fact. Yet the new SoF mentions that He was born of "a" virgin (the indefinite article, ie any virgin) as opposed to the particular, "the" Virgin Mary. Christ was born of a mother, and we know her name. This is affirmation that the incarnation of Christ is an historical fact, as is His crucifixion, resurrection and ascension. It is fact that He entered history and walked among us. Given the dangerous teachings that have arisen (that these things did not occur "really"), any SoF that does not make this historical fact clear is potentially misleading and dangerous.

Again, this is posted here for you to consider; if these matters are not also of concern to you, please accept my apology for intruding.

either way, thank you for your time :)

in Christ,
Thekla

[Philothei]

We know that men are born of the Spirit, that the Spirit dwells in the people of God and continually influences their thoughts, feelings, and actions.


I am not debating Holy Spirit EO but advocating your own .. It is stated in YOUR OWN ... ^ It does talk about birth thus He is the Giver of Life.....

I know you need to close this thread ... but can we transfer it to the baptist debate area please?

Thank you for your patience

[rusmeister]

To be specific, the Holy Spirit did not give life, in a technical sense.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." -Gen. 2:7 (KJV)

Even the soul of man is refered to as having come from God:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." -Ecc. 12:7 (KJV)



And just for reference my brother, we Baptists, place a great deal of emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit especally when it comes to the matter of salvation.

THe whole of John 16:8-10 is the work of the Holy Spirit now in this world to bring mankind to salvation.



We are not talking about theological issues when it comes to the site-wide Sof.

All that is expressed is a belief in the Holy Spirit as the third person of the God-head.

Individual congregational areas are left to their own devices as to how they want to deal with expressed statements concerning the Holy Spirit.

For example:

The Philadelphia Baptist Association of 1742 issued this statement concerning the "Trinity:"

Chapter 2

Of God and of the Holy Trinity


THE LORD OUR GOD is but one only living, and true God;1 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn1) whose subsistence is in and of Himself,2 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn2) infinite in being and perfections, whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but Himself;3 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn3) a most pure spirit,4 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn4) invisible, without body, parts or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto,5 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn5) who is immutable, immense,7 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn7) eternal,8 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn8) incomprehensible, almighty,9 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn9) every way infinite, most holy,10 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn10) most wise, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,11 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn11) for His own glory,12 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn12) most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression and sin, the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him,13 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn13) and withal most just, and terrible in His judgements,14 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn14) hating all sin,15 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn15) and will by no means clear the guilty.16 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn16)

God, having all life,17 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn17) glory,18 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn18) goodness,19 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn19) blessedness, in and of Himself, is alone in, and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which He hath made, nor deriving any glory from them,20 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn20) but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them, He is the alone fountain of all being of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things,21 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn21) and He hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever Himself pleaseth;22 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn22) in His sight all things are open and manifest,23 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn23) His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent or uncertain,24 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn24) He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works,25 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn25) and in all His commands; to Him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship,26 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn26) service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever He is further pleased to require of them.

In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word (or Son), and Holy Spirit,27 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn27) of one substance, power and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided;28 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn28) the Father is of none neither begotten nor proceeding, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father,29 (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm#fn29) the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son,all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar, relative properties, and personal relations which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on Him.
Footnotes:
1. 1Co 8:4,6; Dt 6:4.
2. Jer 10:10; Isa 48:12.
3. Ex 3:14.
4. Jn 4:24.
5. 1Ti 1:17; Dt 4:15-16.
6. Mal 3:6.
7. 1Ki 8:27; Jer 23:23.
8. Ps 90:2.
9. Ge 17:1.
10. Isa 6:3.
11. Ps 115:3; Isa 46:10.
12. Pr 16:4; Ro 11:36.
13. Ex 34:6-7; Heb 11:6.
14. Ne 9:32-33.
15. Ps 5:5-6.
16. Ex 34:7; Na 1:2-3.
17. Jn 5:26.
18. Ps 148:13.
19. Ps 119:68.
20. Job 22:2-3.
21. Ro 11:34-36.
22. Da 4:25,34-35.
23. Heb 4:13.
24. Eze 11:5; Ac 15:18.
25. Ps 145:17.
26. Rev 5:12-14.
27. 1Jn 5:7; Mt 28:19; 2Co 13:14.
28. Ex 3:14; Jn 14:11; 1Co 8:6.
29. Jn 1:14,18. 30. Jn 15:26; Gal 4:6.

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc02.htm

And this just so happens, to be one of the "standards" we use here in the Baptist area.

The new owner does not want to get overly technical when comes to a general statement on what he wants. However, we can, and have.

And if you want to know what standard I enforce here in the Baptist area, here it is:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6954102

I'm sorry if the site-wide SoF does not have a disertation on the Holy Spirit. The owner did not want it that way.

God Bless

Till all are one.

All of this kind of makes my point of "outside direct Scriptural references". And most notably, my point on history is not answered.

I do like your siggie, btw. It's something we Orthodox Christians pray for.

[DeaconDean]

It does talk about birth thus He is the Giver of Life.....

Not according to Rom. 6:3-4.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."


The Spirit, Giver of Life and Love: A Catechesis on the Creed (Paperback)

by Pope John Paul II (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/105-3454573-8833268?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Pope%20John%20Paul%20II) (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/Spirit-Giver-Life-Love-Catechesis/dp/0819869872

Nuff said...Now I understand where this comes from.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[FreeinChrist]

I am not debating Holy Spirit EO but advocating your own .. It is stated in YOUR OWN ... ^ It does talk about birth thus He is the Giver of Life.....

I know you need to close this thread ... but can we transfer it to the baptist debate area please?

Thank you for your patience


There isn't a Baptist debate area.

If you have an issue with the site SoF, you need to take it to the thread where it is announced.

[DeaconDean]

There isn't a Baptist debate area.

If you have an issue with the site SoF, you need to take it to the thread where it is announced.

Thank you.

I have already tried to explain why there is no set SoF such as we used to have and I was taken to task even over that.

Thank you sis.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Philothei]

Deacon Dean you can close this thread cause I do not wish to "flame" any residents fo this nice forum. That is not the purpose only discussion but it seems however I would approach the subject Iwould be offending so please close it... Thank you :)

[Tonks]

I'm sorry if the site-wide SoF does not have a disertation on the Holy Spirit. The owner did not want it that way.

Just a point or two...well I suppose that it is correct that a disertation is not the desired outcome (on the Holy Spirit specifically or the Holy Trinity generally)...the best characterization is that it we were a bit rushed.

The SoF is going to head through some revisions as there are many people on all sides that were / are somewhat uncomfortable with the current, er, incarnation.

Broadly, I think (and this is my own personal opinion) that there is an attempt to bridge the gap between the more Creedal varieties of Christianity (such as myself) and those that reject Creeds in all forms. I don't know what the answer is...frankly I think that CARM's discussion of the Godhead is a good summary of orthodox, mainstream Christian belief. The various Baptist confessions (for lack of a better word) regarding the Trinity are fine too.

I think that part of the problem, particularly with respect to the Nicene Creed (which is admittedly my preference) is that too many folks felt like they had to "affirm" something in order to be Christian...which was not really the point. Part of the struggle has been that CF, if we're going to return to a more "Christian" site (which I do believe that we're trying to do...) is how can we get a basic sense of "what Christians believe"? For some if there is anything less than a formulated Creed there will be problems...for some if it is anything more than "read your Bible" there will be problems. If it is simply..."believe in Christ" or whatever then that opens the door for all sorts of goofiness.

I guess my post really doesn't have much of a point...just giving my random thoughts on the matter.

[Thekla]

creed


• noun 1 a system of religious belief; a faith. 2 a statement of beliefs or principles; a credo.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/creed?view=uk
"statement of faith" and "creed" are synonymous :doh:

[DeaconDean]

Just a point or two...well I suppose that it is correct that a disertation is not the desired outcome (on the Holy Spirit specifically or the Holy Trinity generally)...the best characterization is that it we were a bit rushed.

The SoF is going to head through some revisions as there are many people on all sides that were / are somewhat uncomfortable with the current, er, incarnation.

Broadly, I think (and this is my own personal opinion) that there is an attempt to bridge the gap between the more Creedal varieties of Christianity (such as myself) and those that reject Creeds in all forms. I don't know what the answer is...frankly I think that CARM's discussion of the Godhead is a good summary of orthodox, mainstream Christian belief. The various Baptist confessions (for lack of a better word) regarding the Trinity are fine too.

I think that part of the problem, particularly with respect to the Nicene Creed (which is admittedly my preference) is that too many folks felt like they had to "affirm" something in order to be Christian...which was not really the point. Part of the struggle has been that CF, if we're going to return to a more "Christian" site (which I do believe that we're trying to do...) is how can we get a basic sense of "what Christians believe"? For some if there is anything less than a formulated Creed there will be problems...for some if it is anything more than "read your Bible" there will be problems. If it is simply..."believe in Christ" or whatever then that opens the door for all sorts of goofiness.

I guess my post really doesn't have much of a point...just giving my random thoughts on the matter.

Matt, did or did not LeeD say he did not want a long discourse in this matter?

When LeeD first made the rules change he said he wanted to simplify things.

That was the point I was trying to show.

I did not say anything about the on-going discussion regarding the discussion on the SoF.

They asked why the site SoF did not have a statement on the H.S., and I said they did.

Although it isn't a disertation, or a paragraph on the subject, it does make a statement about the Holy Spirit:


We worship one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Isaiah 44:6-8; Exodus 3:15). God is three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who share one essence--the Trinity (John 6:27; John 1:1, 14; Romans 8:9; Hebrews 1:2-3).


So, there a statement about the Holy Spirit, but not a long statement that goes into detail as does our Baptist SoF's.

"statement of faith" and "creed" are synonymous

According to your definition, but I submit:


"Let us not be deluded into thinking that the Southern Baptist Convention can integrate Southern Baptist thought by fiat of creedal declarations. Is it a response to the Southern Baptist Convention's more narrowly defined version of the Baptist Faith & Message recently adopted in Orlando, Fla.? No, actually it's a statement published in the Baptist Standard April 30, 1925, when the SBC stood on the brink of adopting the first Baptist Faith & Message document in Memphis, Tenn. The warning was penned by John Ellington White, at the time pastor of First Baptist Church of Anderson, S.C., and president of Anderson College...On one hand, "No creed but the Bible" has been Baptists' mantra from their emergence as a distinctly identifiable group. Yet on the other hand, Baptists from the beginning often have written statements of faith to let others know what they believe...Baptists had been persecuted for not adhering to the authority of the state church and for insisting that every believer should have direct access to God without coercion from church leaders and without being required to work through a human intermediary or subscribe to a human-written creed.
___Historically, Baptists have shunned creeds," Alan Lefever said. In England, early Baptists "refused to adopt a confession. They said we need no confession but the Bible...And when the SBC was formed in 1845, no confession of faith or creed was adopted. W.B. Johnson, first president of the SBC, explained: "We have constructed for our basis no new creed, acting in this manner upon a Baptist aversion for all creeds but the Bible."
___Prior to this time, numerous confessions of faith had been written by individual Baptists, local churches and associations. In fact, in the early days, Baptist churches and pastors would exchange statements of faith as part of the process of calling new pastors, McBeth said.
___The tension over confessions of faith also surfaced in early America as the so-called Regular Baptists and Separate Baptists eventually came together, McBeth said. "The Separates insisted that there be no confession, but the Regulars had a confession."
___To resolve the difference, both groups agreed the confession of faith would be "advisory only" and that no one would be required to subscribe to every point, McBeth said.
___The SBC existed for 80 years--more than half its current life--without adopting any confession of faith. If you read the preamble to the (1925) Baptist Faith & Message, it basically says you can disagree with all this and it is OK. The preamble is the safety valve for Southern Baptists."
"Baptists have debated creeds & confessions for centuries", By: Mark Wingfield, Managing Editor, The Baptist Standard


http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/...es/creeds.html (http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/...es/creeds.html)

To go further, Dr. Jimmy Draper once said:


A Creed is not a revelation of divine truth; it is not a rule of faith and practice,
but it is a help in both. Creeds have no authority over conscience.


Ernest Reisinger wrote:



DANGERS OF CREEDS AND CONFESSIONS


One of the dangers of Creeds and Confessions is using them to bind the conscience. They must never be used to bind the conscience. They can only bind the conscience so far as they are biblical, and they bind only those who voluntarily subscribe to them.

Another danger is allowing Creeds to usurp the place of authority. We do not worship the Creeds. The Bible is our final authority and standard, and it alone. By it we must prove all things. We must not exalt the Creeds above, or equal to the Bible. Creeds are the products of men. However, the respected Creeds are the products of many holy, competent, and seasoned men. The Creeds have proved a safeguard for Christians. They are not independent assertions of truth. They are derived from, and subordinate to, the Bible as the only source and standard of Christian authority.

The Creeds themselves warn against the danger of Creeds. "God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men as such are in anything contrary to His word or not contained in it. So that to believe such doctrines, or obey such commands out of conscience is to betray true liberty of conscience; and the requiring of an implicit faith and absolute and blind obedience is to destroy liberty of conscience and reason also." (Philadelphia Confession of Faith, 1742, Chapter 21, part 2).

http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/re...goodnews02.htm (http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/reisinger/goodnews02.htm)

I rest my case.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Tonks]

It was a mistake coming in here particularly as I'm sick of arguing with you about it. If you have some issues you are free to PM me or start a thread in the staff forum. Suffice to say any global statement of faith - given that CF is supposed to be an ecumencial Christian site - is not going to fully parallel either Baptist or Catholic beliefs. Resting your case or not, I'm not going to argue Baptist theology here as I'm not Baptist.

PM me or not...you know how to be part of the solution.

[DeaconDean]

Mod Hat On!

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/coolhandluke4.JPG

What we have here, is, failure ta communicate!

Mod Hat Off!

If you have an issue with the site SoF, you need to take it to the thread where it is announced.

As per the request of the OP this thread is closed.

God Bless

Till all are one.