Can Messianic JEWS be gentile?

[Kris10leigh]

This comes up occassionally, and it just came up elsewhere on the board from a person who is Jewish (not MJ). This person's post was about MJ's not going to Christian churches and it elluded to the fact that MJs are not gentiles. I didn't want to be disrespectful, but I struggle with this.

I think we all realize the title of "Messianic Jew" is not a good one for gentiles, but there is nothing else. HaReb introduced me to "Messianic believer", and I like that, but aren't we technically allowed to call ourselves "Messianic Jew"?

This little section of the planet of ours seems to be proof that there are many gentiles who consider themselves MJ and possibly more gentiles than Jews. (It's true here anyway)

What do you all think?

[christianmomof3]

It appears that most of the people who follow the Messianic Jewish religion are gentiles. I do not know what post you are referring to or what it said - if you give a link or quote it may be easier to know what you are asking about.

[Tishri1]

CM03 is right, and even in the 1st century there were gads of Gentiles pouring into Judaism after they became believers.... to me its one sign of the Lords soon return
Romans 11:25-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&verse=25&end_verse=27&version=49&context=context)


25 For (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&verse=25&end_verse=27&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28235A))I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&verse=25&end_verse=27&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28235B))mystery--so that you will not be (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&verse=25&end_verse=27&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28235C))wise in your own estimation--that a partial (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&verse=25&end_verse=27&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28235D))hardening has happened to Israel until the (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&verse=25&end_verse=27&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28235E))fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&verse=25&end_verse=27&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28236F))THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27"(G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&verse=25&end_verse=27&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28237G))THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&verse=25&end_verse=27&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28237H))WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."




Luke 21:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021:24;%20John%2010:16;%20Rom%2011:12&version=49)

24and they will fall by (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021:24;%20John%2010:16;%20Rom%2011:12&version=49#cen-NASB-25851A))the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021:24;%20John%2010:16;%20Rom%2011:12&version=49#cen-NASB-25851B))Jerusalem will be (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021:24;%20John%2010:16;%20Rom%2011:12&version=49#cen-NASB-25851C))trampled under foot by the Gentiles until (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021:24;%20John%2010:16;%20Rom%2011:12&version=49#cen-NASB-25851D))the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

John 10:16


(http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=51&source=2&seq=i.50.10.3)

16"I have (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021:24;%20John%2010:16;%20Rom%2011:12&version=49#cen-NASB-26498A))other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021:24;%20John%2010:16;%20Rom%2011:12&version=49#cen-NASB-26498B))one flock with (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021:24;%20John%2010:16;%20Rom%2011:12&version=49#cen-NASB-26498C))one shepherd.



Romans 11:12



(http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=53&source=2&seq=i.52.11.2)

12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021:24;%20John%2010:16;%20Rom%2011:12&version=49#cen-NASB-28222A))fulfillment be!

:)

[Tishri1]

Romans 11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49)

Israel Is Not Cast Away (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49)

1I say then, God has not (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28211A))rejected His people, has He? (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28211B))May it never be! For (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28211C))I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28212D))has not rejected His people whom He (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28212E))foreknew (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28212F))Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3"Lord, (G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28213G))THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
4But what is the divine response to him? "(H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28214H))I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time (I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28215I))a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
6But (J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28216J))if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7What then? What (K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28217K))Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were (L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28217L))hardened;
8just as it is written,
"(M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28218M))GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
9And David says,
"(N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28219N))LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10"(O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28220O))LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."
11(P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28221P))I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? (Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28221Q))May it never be! But by their transgression (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28221R))salvation has come to the Gentiles, to (S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28221S))make them jealous.
12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their (T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28222T))fulfillment be!
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (U (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28223U))I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might (V (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28224V))move to jealousy (W (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28224W))my fellow countrymen and (X (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28224X))save some of them.
15For if their rejection is the (Y (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28225Y))reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but (Z (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28225Z))life from the dead?
16If the (AA (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28226AA))first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But if some of the (AB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28227AB))branches were broken off, and (AC (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28227AC))you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28228AD))it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19(AE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28229AE))You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28230AF))stand by your faith (AG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28230AG))Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's (AH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28232AH))kindness, (AI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28232AI))if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also (AJ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28232AJ))will be cut off.
23And they also, (AK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28233AK))if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For (AL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28235AL))I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (AM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28235AM))mystery--so that you will not be (AN (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28235AN))wise in your own estimation--that a partial (AO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28235AO))hardening has happened to Israel until the (AP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28235AP))fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(AQ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28236AQ))THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27"(AR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28237AR))THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(AS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28237AS))WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28From the standpoint of the gospel they are (AT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28238AT))enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for (AU (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28238AU))the sake of the fathers;
29for the gifts and the (AV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28239AV))calling of God (AW (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28239AW))are irrevocable.
30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32For (AX (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28242AX))God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33Oh, the depth of (AY (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28243AY))the riches both of the (AZ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28243AZ))wisdom and knowledge of God! (BA (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28243BA))How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
34For (BB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28244BB))WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
35Or (BC (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28245BC))WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
36For (BD (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28246BD))from Him and through Him and to Him are all things (BE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28246BE))To Him be the glory forever. Amen.






Sorry for soooo long a list of scriptures but it shows God's will to bring many many gentiles into the way he had laid out for the Jews to walk





It is normal therefore to have this huge off set of Jew and Gentile, its actually Abba's will from the beginning even.... just because the majority is Gentile doesnt mean they shouldnt follow a Jewish way, and its not in reality a Jewish way but a God way, for he gave it to them, for them to be a light to the nations:groupray:



It doesnt make the Gentile a Jew but it makes them grafted into the Way God designed Gentiles and Jews to walk....The only reason IMO it became the Jewish way alone is because the Jew failed to be that light, and hid their light from Gentiles, or made it impossible for them to come in thru works God didnt ordain.....BUT in reality there is only one way into God's Way anyway and thats thru the Blood of Yeshua, so even that is all part of the Master's plan:thumbsup:

[Kris10leigh]

This is not the thread to which I was originally referring, but just visit our main forum here and you'll see what I mean. It's coming up more and more lately.

[Tishri1]

Nothing is wrong per say its preference IMO, but you need to know which is more popular.... when I address folks, I say I am a Messianic Believer or a Messianic Gentile(even though I am Jewish, I was never raised Jewish but Gentile) But I do tell people that we are Messianic or apart of Messianic Judaism.....On the other hand, Its not apart of God's word to say that some one looses their Jewishness when they become a Believer though, that isnt Biblical or practical. Those who are born Jewish remain Jewish no matter what some folks say

[Talmidah]

Those who are born Jewish remain Jewish no matter what some folks say

I, and the vast majority of non-Messianic Jews, agree.

[Tishri1]

Thank you Tal:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:

[Ivy]

There's a notion of being grafted and that term in found in the Scriptures of course, but I think the question is, What should the grafted in individual be called; also what would they like to be called?

I read a wonderful article by Dan Juster once in which he described being a bit taken to task by a Christian pastor for referring to Gentiles as "non-Jews." He had probably just been trying to be polite, but the man did not like being referred to in terms of a negation, as a non-something. Gentile Believer is just fine with me in a Messianic context, though when I'm in a traditional Jewish setting, it prevents a lot of confusion to just say Christian. It doesn't prevent all confusion, as some Jewish people asssume Christian always means Catholic, but in that setting it is a pretty clear and unambiguous term. I think people appreciate clarity & honesty, anyway.

[Talmidah]

I think people appreciate clarity & honesty, anyway.


:clap::thumbsup::clap::thumbsup::clap::thumbsup::clap::thumbsup::clap::thumbsup::clap::thumbsup::clap::thumbsup::thumbsup::clap::thumbsup::clap::thumbsup::clap::thumbsup:

[ShirChadash]

I think people appreciate clarity & honesty, anyway. Absolutely!

[Tishri1]

Can Messianic JEWS be gentile? (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47138514#post47138514)

To answer that literally I would say NO A Jew is a Jew and a Gentile Is a Gentile

Do we have Messianic Jews?-Yes
Do we have Messianic Gentiles?-Yes
Do some Messianic Gentiles call themselves Jews? -yes but it doesnt make them one and there is no conversion that will make them one either.
Do Some Messianic Gentiles say they are Jews at heart?-Yes and that is more accurate, and IMO it is what many believe when they say they are Jewish.... they mean to say Jewish at heart...We need to give them grace and calmly inquire as to what they mean when they say they are Jewish...
Do Messianic Jews say they are Gentile?-Usually NOT and thats good that they dont as the one Race that has sprung back from extinction practically soooo many times is the Jewish Race, and we need them to identify with their people.... Thats why the Messianic Jewish Culture exists to provide a Jewish Believer with the Roots of the Christian faith and stay connected to it and to their Culture...they dont need to change if they dont want to:)

[SingingElk]

Romans 11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49)

Israel Is Not Cast Away (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49)

1I say then, God has not (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28211A))rejected His people, has He? (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28211B))May it never be! For (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28211C))I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28212D))has not rejected His people whom He (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28212E))foreknew (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28212F))Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3"Lord, (G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28213G))THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
4But what is the divine response to him? "(H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28214H))I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time (I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28215I))a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
6But (J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28216J))if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7What then? What (K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28217K))Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were (L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28217L))hardened;
8just as it is written,
"(M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28218M))GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
9And David says,
"(N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28219N))LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10"(O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28220O))LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."
11(P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28221P))I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? (Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28221Q))May it never be! But by their transgression (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28221R))salvation has come to the Gentiles, to (S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28221S))make them jealous.
12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their (T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28222T))fulfillment be!
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (U (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28223U))I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might (V (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28224V))move to jealousy (W (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28224W))my fellow countrymen and (X (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28224X))save some of them.
15For if their rejection is the (Y (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28225Y))reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but (Z (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28225Z))life from the dead?
16If the (AA (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28226AA))first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But if some of the (AB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28227AB))branches were broken off, and (AC (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28227AC))you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28228AD))it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19(AE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28229AE))You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28230AF))stand by your faith (AG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28230AG))Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's (AH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28232AH))kindness, (AI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28232AI))if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also (AJ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28232AJ))will be cut off.
23And they also, (AK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28233AK))if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For (AL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28235AL))I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (AM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28235AM))mystery--so that you will not be (AN (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28235AN))wise in your own estimation--that a partial (AO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28235AO))hardening has happened to Israel until the (AP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28235AP))fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(AQ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28236AQ))THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27"(AR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28237AR))THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(AS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28237AS))WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28From the standpoint of the gospel they are (AT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28238AT))enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for (AU (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28238AU))the sake of the fathers;
29for the gifts and the (AV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28239AV))calling of God (AW (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28239AW))are irrevocable.
30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32For (AX (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28242AX))God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33Oh, the depth of (AY (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28243AY))the riches both of the (AZ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28243AZ))wisdom and knowledge of God! (BA (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28243BA))How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
34For (BB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28244BB))WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
35Or (BC (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28245BC))WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
36For (BD (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28246BD))from Him and through Him and to Him are all things (BE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=49#cen-NASB-28246BE))To Him be the glory forever. Amen.






Sorry for soooo long a list of scriptures but it shows God's will to bring many many gentiles into the way he had laid out for the Jews to walk

This lengthy scripture needed to be posted. There is no truth like the truth from G-d's word to set things straight. G-d is not a G-d of confusion. He always quickly clears up matters if we only listen. It is man that muddies the waters.





It is normal therefore to have this huge off set of Jew and Gentile, its actually Abba's will from the beginning even.... just because the majority is Gentile doesnt mean they shouldnt follow a Jewish way, and its not in reality a Jewish way but a God way, for he gave it to them, for them to be a light to the nations:groupray:

I am what is called Sola Scriptura, and that is the scripture in its entirety, Tanakh and B'rit Hadashah


It doesnt make the Gentile a Jew but it makes them grafted into the Way God designed Gentiles and Jews to walk....The only reason IMO it became the Jewish way alone is because the Jew failed to be that light, and hid their light from Gentiles, or made it impossible for them to come in thru works God didnt ordain.....BUT in reality there is only one way into God's Way anyway and thats thru the Blood of Yeshua, so even that is all part of the Master's plan:thumbsup: It makes them a believer, which is good enough a term for me. My ancestry is such a hodge podge that I don't know what side I fall on, but it doesn't really matter. I just call myself a messianic believer.

[anisavta]

I think Messianic Gentiles should be proud to call themselves Gentiles.
I am a Jew and we carry much responsibility. Like Tevye says in Fiddler on the Roof, " but once in awhile can't you choose someone else?"
As a Gentile you have been given such grace and mercy and love by HaShem that He includes you in the commonwealth of the Nation of Israel. You have access now to the Jewish Messiah. That's the important thing.

[Tishri1]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:celebrate being Gentile:groupray:

[scriptures]

I don't understand why we have to make distinctions.... Can't we just call ourselves as " Christians" ??? Jesus said, the Jews and Gentiles will become one flock.....

(Joh 10:16 The Scriptures 1998+) "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold – I have to bring them as well, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

[SGM4HIM]

Some Messianics associate the name Christian with negative connotations and refer back to Constantine and the distancing of the movement from it's Judaic root. Although this was back some 1600+ yrs ago they define modern Christianity in this light. Some were hurt by the "Church" and want to distance themselves from it now.

[scriptures]

Some Messianics associate the name Christian with negative connotations and refer back to Constantine and the distancing of the movement from it's Judaic root. Although this was back some 1600+ yrs ago they define modern Christianity in this light. Some were hurt by the "Church" and want to distance themselves from it now.


That should not be the case.....gentiles and Jews are one.....

[SGM4HIM]

I concur.

So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Romans 12:5)

[doctrellor]

What do you all think?

Well I can say this .. after not having been to the forum for roughly 18 months .. and obviously some good changes have shown up ..:)

Like this sub-forum, for people like me who consider themselves messianics and are gentile ... so Messianic believer .. and with this little forum now, I think I outta show up a lot more .. lol :amen:

[kivi]

kivi says: Since being Jewish is a matter for B'nai Israel as a community, the only people who should be allowed to use the term Jewish as identification are those who are Jewish based on the 3300 year old community standard: either born of a Jewish mother or those who have converted according to Jewish Law. Any one else using the term should be held accountable for identity theft.


This comes up occassionally, and it just came up elsewhere on the board from a person who is Jewish (not MJ). This person's post was about MJ's not going to Christian churches and it elluded to the fact that MJs are not gentiles. I didn't want to be disrespectful, but I struggle with this.

I think we all realize the title of "Messianic Jew" is not a good one for gentiles, but there is nothing else. HaReb introduced me to "Messianic believer", and I like that, but aren't we technically allowed to call ourselves "Messianic Jew"?

This little section of the planet of ours seems to be proof that there are many gentiles who consider themselves MJ and possibly more gentiles than Jews. (It's true here anyway)

What do you all think?

[christianmomof3]

kivi says: Since being Jewish is a matter for B'nai Israel as a community, the only people who should be allowed to use the term Jewish as identification are those who are Jewish based on the 3300 year old community standard: either born of a Jewish mother or those who have converted according to Jewish Law. Any one else using the term should be held accountable for identity theft.
That is the Jewish pov - not the Messianic pov.
I think that those who are not Jewish just don't get it.
Maybe it is because just anyone can call themselves a Christian if they chose too, whereas it does not work that way with being Jewish.
So, they either don't get it or else they do understand, but have decided to "change the rules" to suit their own concept, which may change things according to their concept, but does not change things in the view of the Jewish people who do not accept the Messianic pov and are offended by non-Jewish people trying to call themselves Jewish.

[Henaynei]

kivi says: Since being Jewish is a matter for B'nai Israel as a community, the only people who should be allowed to use the term Jewish as identification are those who are Jewish based on the 3300 year old community standard: either born of a Jewish mother or those who have converted according to Jewish Law. Any one else using the term should be held accountable for identity theft.OMEYN!!!

That is the Jewish pov - not the Messianic pov.
I think that those who are not Jewish just don't get it.
Maybe it is because just anyone can call themselves a Christian if they chose too, whereas it does not work that way with being Jewish.
So, they either don't get it or else they do understand, but have decided to "change the rules" to suit their own concept, which may change things according to their concept, but does not change things in the view of the Jewish people who do not accept the Messianic pov and are offended by non-Jewish people trying to call themselves Jewish.true dat!

[Tishri1]

What do they call Jews who convert to Gentile Paganism...Are they still considered Jewish or not anymore .....just curious if there were another word out there.

[kivi]

What do they call Jews who convert to Gentile Paganism...Are they still considered Jewish or not anymore .....just curious if there were another word out there.
kivi answers: According to Torah Law, a Jew can not stop being a Jew. A Jew who is born of a Jewish mother or converts according to Torah Law is a Jew forever. And there is no distincion between the two. Therefore, no matter what religion they think they are converting to, they are not. And no matter how far they go from HaAShem and Torah, they can always repent and they will be forgiven, after they make amends. There is only one track a Jew can be on, and that is the Torah Track.

[Tishri1]

What if they were never raised Jewish and reject Jewishness(thinking of my Mom)

[kivi]

What if they were never raised Jewish and reject Jewishness(thinking of my Mom)

kivi says: The second you start talking about individual Jews, you need to consult a reliable Orthodox Rabbi and ask a shilah [a Halachic question] on the matter.

[Tishri1]

What if a whole group of Jews reject their own Identity...My mom's great grandparents did that, and we didnt discover our identity till grampa sent us a huge genealogy map that showed we were all Jewish... Now my mom could care less(she is happy to be a relative of Yeshua is all it amounts to) I on the other hand have had this draw in my heart toward the Jewish people all my life, and I feel it does come from God...I dont call myself Jewish (or Levite I should say as we were Kleins/Clines) but I feel like if I were raised Jewish it would be another thing altogether......I am Messianic and Christian which is what I feel fits better, BUT Im not apposed to being called Jewish either when folks insist I accept my ancestors roots proudly, I am proud of that:).....Ive been Messianic for 12 years and Christian for 29 years.

[ChavaK]

What do they call Jews who convert to Gentile Paganism...Are they still considered Jewish or not anymore .....just curious if there were another word out there.

Yep, they are still Jews.....but apostates.

[ChavaK]

I think we all realize the title of "Messianic Jew" is not a good one for gentiles, but there is nothing else. HaReb introduced me to "Messianic believer", and I like that, but aren't we technically allowed to call ourselves "Messianic Jew"?


Messianic Believer is the most accurate term to use.....Messianics should
not be calling themselves Jews or Messianic Jews unless they are
halachaly Jewish.

Otherwise it is dishonest, deceptive, and casts suspicion upon the
Messianic movement.

Why would someone not Jewish refer to themselves as a Messianic Jew?
Are they ashamed of being gentile, do they think they are more acceptable
to G-d if they are Jews? Or??? I don't get it...

[kivi]

kivi says: It would seem that you have a good case, but, again, a reliable Bas Din would have to decide. As for your emotions, emotions are nice, but they are not a reliable indicator of reality, after all, they change with a whim. Hardly a stable basis for spirtual growth or membership in B'nai Israel. But, by not finding out, you are not excusing yourself from the responsibility if you are Jewish. To be honest, you have an obligation to set this matter at rest so you know what you responsbilities are. Being raised Jewish is nice, but not being raised Jewish does not give you a bye.

What if a whole group of Jews reject their own Identity...My mom's great grandparents did that, and we didnt discover our identity till grampa sent us a huge genealogy map that showed we were all Jewish... Now my mom could care less(she is happy to be a relative of Yeshua is all it amounts to) I on the other hand have had this draw in my heart toward the Jewish people all my life, and I feel it does come from God...I dont call myself Jewish (or Levite I should say as we were Kleins/Clines) but I feel like if I were raised Jewish it would be another thing altogether......I am Messianic and Christian which is what I feel fits better, BUT Im not apposed to being called Jewish either when folks insist I accept my ancestors roots proudly, I am proud of that:).....Ive been Messianic for 12 years and Christian for 29 years.

[Henaynei]

Messianic Believer is the most accurate term to use.....Messianics should not be calling themselves Jews or Messianic Jews unless they are halachaly Jewish.

Otherwise it is dishonest, deceptive, and casts suspicion upon the
Messianic movement....:thumbsup: personally I usually ID myself as a Messianic Gentile or Messianic Ger Toshav

[SGM4HIM]

kivi says: Since being Jewish is a matter for B'nai Israel as a community, the only people who should be allowed to use the term Jewish as identification are those who are Jewish based on the 3300 year old community standard: either born of a Jewish mother or those who have converted according to Jewish Law. Any one else using the term should be held accountable for identity theft.

Not everyone agrees with this according to
http://judaism.about.com/od/whoisajew/a/whoisjewdescent.htm.

"Matrilineal descent, the passing down of a child's Jewish identity via the mother, is not a biblical principle. In biblical times, many Jewish men married non-Jews, and their children's status was determined by the father's religion."
"Sometime during the Roman occupation and the Second Temple (http://judaism.about.com/od/daysofmourning/f/temple2.htm) period, a law of matrilineal descent, which defined a Jew as someone with a Jewish mother, was adopted. By the 2nd century CE, it was clearly practiced"

[ChavaK]

personally I usually ID myself as a Messianic Gentile or Messianic Ger Toshav

:thumbsup:

Although most people think "convert" when they hear "ger" in
any context ;)

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Tishri1 http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48684659#post48684659) What do they call Jews who convert to Gentile Paganism...Are they still considered Jewish or not anymore .....just curious if there were another word out there

Yep, they are still Jews.....but apostates.Shalom ChavaK!!! Doesn't that word come from the greek word #646? I have a rather interesting study on this :hug:

Acts 21:21 "They were instructed yet about the apostasy/from-standing/apo-stasian <646> thou are teaching from Moses, the according to the nations all Judeans saying 'no to be circumcising them the offsprings, no yet to the customs to be about walking'". [Daniel 11:32,35]

2 Thess 2:3 No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/from-standing/apo-stasia <646> first.

[Tishri1]

Yep, they are still Jews.....but apostates.Thats the word:thumbsup: I knew there was one somewhere:thumbsup:

[Tishri1]

Your the first person who told me its my obligation to find out....WOW never looked at it that way before*goes off to contemplate* :234:kivi says: It would seem that you have a good case, but, again, a reliable Bas Din would have to decide. As for your emotions, emotions are nice, but they are not a reliable indicator of reality, after all, they change with a whim. Hardly a stable basis for spirtual growth or membership in B'nai Israel. But, by not finding out, you are not excusing yourself from the responsibility if you are Jewish. To be honest, you have an obligation to set this matter at rest so you know what you responsbilities are. Being raised Jewish is nice, but not being raised Jewish does not give you a bye.

[Tishri1]

Shalom ChavaK!!! Doesn't that word come from the greek word #646? I have a rather interesting study on this :hug:

Acts 21:21 "They were instructed yet about the apostasy/from-standing/apo-stasian <646> thou are teaching from Moses, the according to the nations all Judeans saying 'no to be circumcising them the offsprings, no yet to the customs to be about walking'". [Daniel 11:32,35]

2 Thess 2:3 No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/from-standing/apo-stasia <646> first.:confused: I dont understand this translation

[kivi]

kivi says: I have been very clear from the beginning of my membership in CF. I only speak from the standpoint of Orthodox Judaism. I have no comment on other claims of groups that are not Orthodox. We know that problems of Jewish men marrying non-Jewish women occured long before the Roman occupation, so there is an error of historic accuracy in the article you are sighting. In fact, it was one of the major problems that the Prophet Ezra had to deal with in the struggling community of Jerusalem in the 1st decades of settlement after the initial return from the Babylonian Captivity, more than 300 years before the Roman occupation. The solution was not to use the father's staus to make the children Jewish but to have the Jewish men put their non-Jewish wives aside.

Ezra 9
Ezra's Prayer About Intermarriage

1 After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, "The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness."

3 When I heard this, I tore my tunic and cloak, pulled hair from my head and beard and sat down appalled. 4 Then everyone who trembled at the words of the God of Israel gathered around me because of this unfaithfulness of the exiles. And I sat there appalled until the evening sacrifice.
5 Then, at the evening sacrifice, I rose from my self-abasement, with my tunic and cloak torn, and fell on my knees with my hands spread out to the LORD my God 6 and prayed:
"O my God, I am too ashamed and disgraced to lift up my face to you, my God, because our sins are higher than our heads and our guilt has reached to the heavens. 7 From the days of our forefathers until now, our guilt has been great. Because of our sins, we and our kings and our priests have been subjected to the sword and captivity, to pillage and humiliation at the hand of foreign kings, as it is today.
8 "But now, for a brief moment, the LORD our God has been gracious in leaving us a remnant and giving us a firm place in his sanctuary, and so our God gives light to our eyes and a little relief in our bondage. 9 Though we are slaves, our God has not deserted us in our bondage. He has shown us kindness in the sight of the kings of Persia: He has granted us new life to rebuild the house of our God and repair its ruins, and he has given us a wall of protection in Judah and Jerusalem.
10 "But now, O our God, what can we say after this? For we have disregarded the commands 11 you gave through your servants the prophets when you said: 'The land you are entering to possess is a land polluted by the corruption of its peoples. By their detestable practices they have filled it with their impurity from one end to the other. 12 Therefore, do not give your daughters in marriage to their sons or take their daughters for your sons. Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them at any time, that you may be strong and eat the good things of the land and leave it to your children as an everlasting inheritance.' 13 "What has happened to us is a result of our evil deeds and our great guilt, and yet, our God, you have punished us less than our sins have deserved and have given us a remnant like this. 14 Shall we again break your commands and intermarry with the peoples who commit such detestable practices? Would you not be angry enough with us to destroy us, leaving us no remnant or survivor? 15 O LORD, God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence."


Ezra 10

The People's Confession of Sin

1 While Ezra was praying and confessing, weeping and throwing himself down before the house of God, a large crowd of Israelites—men, women and children—gathered around him. They too wept bitterly. 2 Then Shecaniah son of Jehiel, one of the descendants of Elam, said to Ezra, "We have been unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women from the peoples around us. But in spite of this, there is still hope for Israel. 3 Now let us make a covenant before our God to send away all these women and their children, in accordance with the counsel of my lord and of those who fear the commands of our God. Let it be done according to the Law. 4 Rise up; this matter is in your hands. We will support you, so take courage and do it."

5 So Ezra rose up and put the leading priests and Levites and all Israel under oath to do what had been suggested. And they took the oath. 6 Then Ezra withdrew from before the house of God and went to the room of Jehohanan son of Eliashib. While he was there, he ate no food and drank no water, because he continued to mourn over the unfaithfulness of the exiles.
7 A proclamation was then issued throughout Judah and Jerusalem for all the exiles to assemble in Jerusalem. 8 Anyone who failed to appear within three days would forfeit all his property, in accordance with the decision of the officials and elders, and would himself be expelled from the assembly of the exiles.
9 Within the three days, all the men of Judah and Benjamin had gathered in Jerusalem. And on the twentieth day of the ninth month, all the people were sitting in the square before the house of God, greatly distressed by the occasion and because of the rain. 10 Then Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, "You have been unfaithful; you have married foreign women, adding to Israel's guilt. 11 Now make confession to the LORD, the God of your fathers, and do his will. Separate yourselves from the peoples around you and from your foreign wives."
12 The whole assembly responded with a loud voice: "You are right! We must do as you say. 13 But there are many people here and it is the rainy season; so we cannot stand outside. Besides, this matter cannot be taken care of in a day or two, because we have sinned greatly in this thing. 14 Let our officials act for the whole assembly. Then let everyone in our towns who has married a foreign woman come at a set time, along with the elders and judges of each town, until the fierce anger of our God in this matter is turned away from us." 15 Only Jonathan son of Asahel and Jahzeiah son of Tikvah, supported by Meshullam and Shabbethai the Levite, opposed this.
16 So the exiles did as was proposed. Ezra the priest selected men who were family heads, one from each family division, and all of them designated by name. On the first day of the tenth month they sat down to investigate the cases, 17 and by the first day of the first month they finished dealing with all the men who had married foreign women.
Not everyone agrees with this according to
http://judaism.about.com/od/whoisajew/a/whoisjewdescent.htm.

"Matrilineal descent, the passing down of a child's Jewish identity via the mother, is not a biblical principle. In biblical times, many Jewish men married non-Jews, and their children's status was determined by the father's religion."
"Sometime during the Roman occupation and the Second Temple (http://judaism.about.com/od/daysofmourning/f/temple2.htm) period, a law of matrilineal descent, which defined a Jew as someone with a Jewish mother, was adopted. By the 2nd century CE, it was clearly practiced"

[SGM4HIM]

"so there is an error of historic accuracy in the article you are sighting.

Still waiting to see Torah scripture to validate your original opinion ".... based on the 3300 year old community standard"
but no big deal.

[kivi]

Still waiting to see Torah scripture to validate your original opinion ".... based on the 3300 year old community standard"
but no big deal.

kivi says:
"Devarim - Deuteronomy

Chapter 7

1 When HaShem thy G-d shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before thee, the Hittite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 and when HaShem thy G-d shall deliver them up before thee, and thou shalt smite them; then thou shalt utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them;
3 neither shalt thou make marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For he will turn away thy son from following Me, that they may serve other gods; so will the anger of HaShem be kindled against you, and He will destroy thee quickly.
5 But thus shall ye deal with them: ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire.

Vayikra - Leviticus

Chapter 24


10 And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel; and the son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp.
11 And the son of the Israelitish woman blasphemed the Name, and cursed; and they brought him unto Moses. And his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan."

These are real-to-live examples that are the Chumash foundation of the Torah Law about the Matrilineal descent.

[SGM4HIM]

That's ok as long as I don't have to ignore

"Numbers 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of names, every male, by their polls" and all the other numerous patriarchal tribal references mentioned.

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivi says:
"Devarim - Deuteronomy

Chapter 7

1 When HaShem thy G-d shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before thee, the Hittite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

:) Coincidentally, there are 7 "heads" in Revelation.

Revelation 13:1 And I was standing upon the sand of the sea. And I saw out of the sea a beast ascending having horns, ten, and heads seven. And upon the horns of it ten diadems, and upon the heads of it names [*name] of blasphemy.

[kivi]

That's ok as long as I don't have to ignore

"Numbers 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of names, every male, by their polls" and all the other numerous patriarchal tribal references mentioned.

kivi says: You should not ignore it. The two methods of 'counting' co-exist. For purposes of membership in the Nation, it goes by the mother; for purposes of membership in the Tribe, it goes by the father. This is hardly unusual in world cultures. Some American indian groups also have a mix of 'it goes by the mother' and 'it goes by the father'. And in the US, we count men differently than women for the purposes of the military draft, as the example you have given is all about. Each way of 'counting' is particular to the need or the purpose and one way of 'counting'
can not be subsituted for another way of 'counting'.

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivi says: You should not ignore it. The two methods of 'counting' co-exist. For purposes of membership in the Nation, it goes by the mother; for purposes of membership in the Tribe, it goes by the father. Greetings. I won't disagree but since only Christians and Muslims believe Jesus did not have an earthly father, I do not think it would be fruitfull for us to dialoge concerning the lineage of Jesus. Of course the Muslims have their own version of the birth of Jesus though they believe she was born of a virgin. Wonder where they got that idea from. Peace.


Reve 5:5 And one out of the elders is saying to me: "No be lamenting! Behold! Conquers, the Lion, the out of the Tribe of Judah, the root of David to open-up the scrollet and to-loose the seven seals of it".

[Holy Roller]

kivi says: Since being Jewish is a matter for B'nai Israel as a community, the only people who should be allowed to use the term Jewish as identification are those who are Jewish based on the 3300 year old community standard: either born of a Jewish mother or those who have converted according to Jewish Law. Any one else using the term should be held accountable for identity theft.

Saying that a Jew should be identified based on the 3,300 year-old standard is too rigid. Kind of like saying you are not a Jew if you support Obama.

We already know Democrats are sympathetic towards the Palestinians and the Republicans are bullish on Israel, right? So, you're a Jew only if you vote Republican, period!

[Henaynei]

Saying that a Jew should be identified based on the 3,300 year-old standard is too rigid. Kind of like saying you are not a Jew if you support Obama.

We already know Democrats are sympathetic towards the Palestinians and the Republicans are bullish on Israel, right? So, you're a Jew only if you vote Republican, period!not really.... that 3000 year old standard was set by G-d, not the MSM.

[kivi]

Saying that a Jew should be identified based on the 3,300 year-old standard is too rigid.
kivi says: Wrong, a 3,000 year old standard is consistancy, integrity and humility:amen:.

Kind of like saying you are not a Jew if you support Obama.
kivi says: Wrong. I'm a Jew who supports Obama:clap:.

We already know Democrats are sympathetic towards the Palestinians and the Republicans are bullish on Israel, right?
kivi says: Wrong. Strike 3, you're out. I'm a Democrat who is not sympathetic toward the Palestians:cool:.

So, you're a Jew only if you vote Republican, period!
kivi says: Wrong. You just did Strike 4, congratulations:doh:. I vote Democrat and I'm a Jew.

[Holy Roller]

kivi says: Wrong. I'm a Jew who supports Obama:clap:.

To believe that an Orthodox Jew can support an American Democrat... Is a treasonable idea.


kivi says: Wrong. Strike 3, you're out. I'm a Democrat who is not sympathetic toward the Palestians:cool:.
To believe it's possible for a Democrat to not feel pity on the Palestinians... is a treasonable idea.


kivi says: Wrong. You just did Strike 4, congratulations:doh:. I vote Democrat and I'm a Jew.

To believe that a democrat has a place in conservative Judaism... is a trasonable idea.

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivi says: Wrong. You just did Strike 4, congratulations:doh:. I vote Democrat and I'm a Jew.
:) I wasn't even going to vote this year but when I heard Sarah say something about drilling for more oil in Alaska and the US I said Yippee. So, I "may" vote Repub.

[kivi]

:) I wasn't even going to vote this year but when I heard Sarah say something about drilling for more oil in Alaska and the US I said Yippee. So, I "may" vote Repub.
kivi says: Alaskans have a very selfish view of their State's resources and weatlh, that G-d put all of that gold and copper and fish and oil there for their own private enjoyment. Well they mined all the gold out of the Yukon River and all the copper out of the ground and each year the fish stocks plummet every further and there is just so much oil. But no part of America is the private perserve of the people who it happens to be their back yard. And while the 'locals' have a special interest in what happens in their back yard, their voice is not the only voice. Further drilling on the Slope is not only a practical issue>how many barrels is up there? How much money can we tuck away for the General Fund? How big will the Dividend Check be this year? But also symbolic and spiritual. Does every spot that has a barrel of oil under it have to be drilled? Is there something more important than the allmighty buck? Is protecting something that I will never see that important because it is the right thing to do? And the Northern Slope is were these issues collide. I would not drill for the spiritual disipline that everything is not to be measured by the dollar. But more important, I would not drill for the spiritual discipline that we are not the owners of this Earth, but its stewards. And all healthy organizations/organisms have boundaries. They deny themsleves the feast of today for the rewards of tomorrow. NOT DRILLING IS ONE OF THOSE SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINES.

[ContraMundum]

So, you're a Jew only if you vote Republican, period!

I would rather be shot than vote for the GOP, and I'm a Jew.

[Henaynei]

I would rather be shot than vote for the GOP, and I'm a Jew.unfortunately a lot of Jews have that mind set :(

[ContraMundum]

unfortunately a lot of Jews have that mind set :(

Of course we do, we are, after all, rather intelligent at times. We tend to see the big picture and that's why we survive.

I really, really hope that you aren't insinuating that voting for and supporting the GOP is the right way for Jews to think and vote, are you? You're not stereotyping us or telling us what is good for us, right?

http://www.jewsforobama.blogspot.com/

[Henaynei]

I know a lot of Jews who wouldn't vote for NObama no matter what... a lot of thinking and very intelligent Jews ;)

and if YOU think that I am sterotyping Jews you have never known much about me.

[ChavaK]

I really, really hope that you aren't insinuating that voting for and supporting the GOP is the right way for Jews to think and vote, are you? You're not stereotyping us or telling us what is good for us, right?


Actually the stereotype is the other way.....that all Jews are liberal
Democrats. Plenty of us Conservative/Republican Jews around.....
although of course not nearly enough. :P ;)

http://img.christianforums.com/cache/siggies/sigpic220728_15.gif

[ContraMundum]

Actually the stereotype is the other way.....that all Jews are liberal
Democrats. Plenty of us Conservative/Republican Jews around.....
although of course not nearly enough. :P ;)

http://img.christianforums.com/cache/siggies/sigpic220728_15.gif


I know, but fundie Christians (or Jews or Muslims) tend to think their way is the only way to think, vote and act- everyone else is a moron. (Consider the groups like Joel's Army that nuts like Palin support for an example). While they love to slam labels on us, they rarely are able to elucidate their own reasonings. I sometimes wonder why some people make comments like Henny's.

[kivi]

I would rather be shot than vote for the GOP, and I'm a Jew.

kivi says: I happen to agree with CM when it comes to politics. While more in favor of the captialistic system then he, I fully support the Democratic ticket in '08 for all the right reasons: 1. Opposition to the wrongfully implimented and conducted war in Iraq. 2. Support for basic humans rights and freedoms, at home and overseas[the horrors of Gitmo and Rendition; warrantless wiretaps]. 3. Appropriate re-regulation of the American economy. 4. Renewed focus on the real enemy, at home and overseas: poverty, disease and violence. 5. Renewed focus on Afganistan and Al Qiada. 6. Energy Independence. 7. Universal and affordable health care. 8. Decreased lobbiest and special interest group influence. 9. Stop the re-distribution of wealth from the bottom 90% to the top 10% and create a truely fair and transparent tax system. 10. Re-newed dedication to patriotic service to America through both military and civilian programs. 11. A fair, just and humane system of immigration reform.

The Republican Party and Adminstration and, up to two years ago, the Republican Congress, has used and abused the America public in favor of the narrow, selfish and bigoted interests of its own radical right wing base and the wealthy special interests that could command all the influence that money could buy. This must be stop. NOW!!!!

[Henaynei]

I would rather be shot than vote for the GOP, and I'm a Jew.unfortunately a lot of Jews have that mind set :(Of course we do, we are, after all, rather intelligent at times. We tend to see the big picture and that's why we survive.

I really, really hope that you aren't insinuating that voting for and supporting the GOP is the right way for Jews to think and vote, are you? You're not stereotyping us or telling us what is good for us, right?

http://www.jewsforobama.blogspot.com/

I know, but fundie Christians (or Jews or Muslims) tend to think their way is the only way to think, vote and act- everyone else is a moron. (Consider the groups like Joel's Army that nuts like Palin support for an example). While they love to slam labels on us, they rarely are able to elucidate their own reasonings. I sometimes wonder why some people make comments like Henny's.

kivi says: The Republican Party and Adminstration and, up to two years ago, the Republican Congress, has used and abused the America public in favor of the narrow, selfish and bigoted interests of its own radical right wing base and the wealthy special interests that could command all the influence that money could buy. This must be stop. NOW!!!!well now - we see here that calling people narrow, selfish, bigoted, nuts is not considered slamming labels as long as it is leveled at "fundies"; insinuations that conservative Jews are unintelligent, narrow view and jeopardize surviving are considered fair, broad-minded and intelligent... while being accused of "thinking [my] way (of thinking) is the only way to think, vote and act" and accused of thinking that others who think differently are "morons."

my ONLY comment was lamenting that so many Jews are liberals - for this I get slammed with the above and backhanded (and some front handed) slaps while being accused of insinuating and insulting stereo-types while being told that is what I did.... and all I said was "unfortunately a lot of Jews have that mind set" when someone said they'd rather be shot than vote conservative....

very intriguing mind-set, indeed....

[ContraMundum]

my ONLY comment was lamenting that so many Jews are liberals -

Neither kivi or I would be considered political liberals. Unfortunately many Americans equate the economically left with liberalism, when the two ideas are not necessarily compatible or united.

Interestingly enough, the GOP idea of laissez faire economics is what is properly called liberal as opposed to regulated (this is why in other nations the capitalist conservative parties are often called the "Liberal Party" etc.). So, I would call GOP economics liberal, and GOP ethics slightly (or barely) conservative, if at all. In fact, the opposite could easily be said of their ethics.

Based on that simple fact of political science, neither kivi or myself could be labelled liberal, as we both support a more regulated economy and neither of us are ethically anything other than orthodox religious. We are the true conservatives.

or this I get slammed with the above and backhanded (and some front handed) slaps while being accused of insinuating and insulting stereo-types while being told that is what I did.... and all I said was "unfortunately a lot of Jews have that mind set" when someone said they'd rather be shot than vote conservative....

very intriguing mind-set, indeed....Interpret it as you will (and I think you have misinterpreted us, c'est la vie) at least we have elucidated our position. I have yet to see anyone on your side of politics demonstrate even a modicum of analysis to tell us why they think we're lamentable.

[Tishri1]

My only comment

If we take all the businessmen's money for America they will leave America

it happens....my Husband has seen many Jobs he would be qualified for go over seas.


oh and one more comment

"GO RON PAUL!!!!"

Oh well maybe next time;)

[Henaynei]

1) This thread was not originally about politics, I generally stay out of such, especially during election cycles
2) what I was lamenting was that any one would so despise one side so much that they would say they would rather be dead than associated them.... NOT your particular political spectral analysis... ;)
3) jmpov

[ContraMundum]

2) what I was lamenting was that any one would so despise one side so much that they would say they would rather be dead than associated them.... NOT your particular political spectral analysis... ;)
3) jmpov

Sorry Henny, it did not come across that way. Oh well, no worries, and I still think you're a great person and a wonderful presence here. :)

[Henaynei]

Republician Jewish Coalition (http://www.rjchq.org/Multimedia/video.aspx?video=597770ed-ce1b-4905-bba2-f27d7bcdf6a7)

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by ContraMundum http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48804366#post48804366) I would rather be shot than vote for the GOP, and I'm a Jew.Greetings! May I humbly suggest a new Candidate with a fresh approach for both America and the World. :blush:

http://www.news3online.com/index.php?code=421eib326qjN18OKF0g1

[ContraMundum]

Greetings! May I humbly suggest a new Candidate with a fresh approach for both America and the World. :blush:

http://www.news3online.com/index.php?code=421eib326qjN18OKF0g1

I couldn't view it because my connection is too slow. I will check it out another time.

Politically, I like these guys (http://www.thelaborparty.org/) a lot but no party is perfect for me anymore.

[Ivy]

Well, I am all for Labor having a voice, CM.:thumbsup:

[LittleLambofJesus]

I couldn't view it because my connection is too slow. I will check it out another time.

Politically, I like these guys (http://www.thelaborparty.org/) a lot but no party is perfect for me anymore.Greetings! That was actually a joke site where you enter your name and it appears on a short newscast with your name on billboards, buses, cabs, front page of a newspaper etc. It's pretty funny.
For example it's shows "LittleLambofJesus for President" :D

[Ivy]

Greetings! That was actually a joke site where you enter your name and it appears on a short newscast with your name on billboards, buses, cabs, front page of a newspaper etc. It's pretty funny.
For example it's shows "LittleLambofJesus for President" :D

Oh geeze! :D:D That was funny!.......I'm gonna play this joke on a few people!

[Eben Abram]

Shalom Alecheim

Why are you ashamed to be a Messianic Gentile?

For that matter all you undercover SDA... Why not be a Messianic Seventh Day adventist?

Messianic Christian is a Great Term and since I was around when NO ONE and I do mean NO ONE was called Messianic, Whats the Issue?

Alecheim Shalom

Eben Abram