What do Orthodox Jews believe?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

If Orthodox Jews truly believe that their scripture is divinely inspired, then how come they don't believe Yahshua is the Messiah. I would think that they would all be asking, where is the Messiah? Do they have some kind of unrealistic expectation?:confused:

[visionary]

They can post a little more freely here to answer your questions.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I don't understand why. If you need to, send me a PM or email.

[visionary]

Orthodox Jews are not allowed to give you a statement of their belief on Messianic Forum

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Orthodox Jews are not allowed to give you a statement of their belief on Messianic Forum Oh, Ok. Well hopfully I will get some kind of replys over here.

[simchat_torah]

Probably after shabbat is over ;)

[ShirChadash]

If Orthodox Jews truly believe that their scripture is divinely inspired, then how come they don't believe Yahshua is the Messiah. I would think that they would all be asking, where is the Messiah? Do they have some kind of unrealistic expectation?:confused:

Yep -- totally unrealistic expectation. Christians believe Jesus came, died, rose, ascended and has been hanging out for 2000 years, oh but they expect he'll return later to do the things he was supposed to do the first time he was here... and Jews are unrealistic to expect the Messiah to do what G-d said he must do in order to be Messiah. :doh:

[simchat_torah]

Sure, if we lower our expectations then anyone could be Messiah... why not?
But... because we have such clearly defined expectations that were not met, we are still waiting.

Shalom,
Yafet

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Yep -- totally unrealistic expectation. Christians believe Jesus came, died, rose, ascended and has been hanging out for 2000 years, oh but they expect he'll return later to do the things he was supposed to do the first time he was here... and Jews are unrealistic to expect the Messiah to do what G-d said he must do in order to be Messiah. :doh: If a persons understanding of scripture is singular in regards to the fulfilment of prophecy. But the prophecies are two part. First he must come as the suffering Messiah. And after 2 days he will come in victorius glory. My best guess is that the two days started in 133 AD; when the Jewish people were finally defeated. 2 days + 133 = 2133 AD. Or in other words 133 AD = 0 day. Also 2300 - 167 BC = 2133.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Sure, if we lower our expectations then anyone could be Messiah... why not?
But... because we have such clearly defined expectations that were not met, we are still waiting.

Shalom,
Yafet Have you calculated the 390 and the 490 prophecy?

[simchat_torah]

If a persons understanding of scripture is singular in regards to the fulfilment of prophecy. But the prophecies are two part. First he must come as the suffering Messiah. And after 2 days he will come in victorius glory. My best guess is that the two days started in 133 AD; when the Jewish people were finally defeated. 2 days + 133 = 2133 AD. Or in other words 133 AD = 0 day. Also 2300 - 167 BC = 2133.
....
Have you calculated the 390 and the 490 prophecy?You are truly greater than any prophet that ever lived... for in the Bible all we have are prophets who speak crytpically in very esoteric and mystical words. Yet G-d speaks to you directly with precise years and dates. Surely you are above Moses.
Why has no one recognized your great power yet?

[LadyGarnetRose]

If a persons understanding of scripture is singular in regards to the fulfilment of prophecy. But the prophecies are two part. First he must come as the suffering Messiah. And after 2 days he will come in victorius glory. My best guess is that the two days started in 133 AD; when the Jewish people were finally defeated. 2 days + 133 = 2133 AD. Or in other words 133 AD = 0 day. Also 2300 - 167 BC = 2133.

But according to the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53, and the modern translation of Isaiah 53, it's past tense, not future tense for the sufferer.

Check the RSV, it doesn't have will, but has.

Scholars abound (as a result of the DSS) that Isaiah 53 is a red herring. A false translation, and not authoritative in the previous translations.

So it's useless as an apologetic.

[Torah613]

Yep -- totally unrealistic expectation. Christians believe Jesus came, died, rose, ascended and has been hanging out for 2000 years, oh but they expect he'll return later to do the things he was supposed to do the first time he was here... and Jews are unrealistic to expect the Messiah to do what G-d said he must do in order to be Messiah. :doh:

at the risk of sounding horribly quaint, here here Zemmy!

Yochanan

[Torah613]

If a persons understanding of scripture is singular in regards to the fulfilment of prophecy. But the prophecies are two part. First he must come as the suffering Messiah. And after 2 days he will come in victorius glory. My best guess is that the two days started in 133 AD; when the Jewish people were finally defeated. 2 days + 133 = 2133 AD. Or in other words 133 AD = 0 day. Also 2300 - 167 BC = 2133.

I love how a non-jew (who so obviously doesn't read Hebrew or have read a decent translation either) presumes to tell real Jews who daily study these matters what the prophecies mean.

You know I don't speak Jappanese, but I can tell you what it means. What a riot.

Yochanan

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I love how a non-jew (who so obviously doesn't read Hebrew or have read a decent translation either) presumes to tell real Jews who daily study these matters what the prophecies mean.

You know I don't speak Jappanese, but I can tell you what it means. What a riot.

Yochanan I use all of the different bibles for study. How about some constructive input. Feel free to use your own scripture to point out anything.

[Torah613]

you wouldnt beable to read it. besides, I have no interest in such a conversation as you are not Jewish and Judaism isn't exactly a proslytizing faith. Not to mention, that I don't want to get into such a convo with a known troublemaker, but you enjoy your life anyways.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

But according to the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53, and the modern translation of Isaiah 53, it's past tense, not future tense for the sufferer.

Check the RSV, it doesn't have will, but has.

Scholars abound (as a result of the DSS) that Isaiah 53 is a red herring. A false translation, and not authoritative in the previous translations.

So it's useless as an apologetic.

Apparently not useless to some Jewish teachers. This is from Mid. Konen, a work written sometime after the 11th century, printed in Bet ha Midrash by Adolph Jellinek.

'And in it [Paradise] is Messiah ben David who loves Jerusalem. Elijah of blessed memory takes hold of his head, places it in his lap and holds it, and says to him: "Endure the sufferings and the sentence of your Master who makes you suffer because of the sin of Israel." And thus it is written: "He was wounded because of our transgression, he was crushed because of our iniquities (Isaiah 53:5) - until the time when the end comes.'

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

But according to the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53, and the modern translation of Isaiah 53, it's past tense, not future tense for the sufferer.

Check the RSV, it doesn't have will, but has.

Scholars abound (as a result of the DSS) that Isaiah 53 is a red herring. A false translation, and not authoritative in the previous translations.

So it's useless as an apologetic. In the DSS of Isaiah 53, is it past or future. Not that it matters. A copyist could have changed the tense from what it was.

[Torah613]

more like a translator did it intentionally in the early church to invent prophecies (that don't exist in the Tenach) to make Je*us seem to be HaMoshiach.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

Sure, if we lower our expectations then anyone could be Messiah... why not?
But... because we have such clearly defined expectations that were not met, we are still waiting.

Shalom,
Yafet


ST, you gotta admit that there are two messiahs postulated by the sages: ben Yosef and ben David. In the midrashim, ben Yosef is slain (for the sins of Israel no less!) and some time later (45 days?) is raised by ben David.

ben Yosef is no less Messiah than ben David. Just different roles.

[Torah613]

yes, but Je*us doesn't fulfill the prophecies regarding either. Let us also not forget that hte Rabbanim are divided on the issue of whether or nto there is a Moshiach ben Yosef.

Yochanan

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

you wouldnt beable to read it. besides, I have no interest in such a conversation as you are not Jewish and Judaism isn't exactly a proslytizing faith. Not to mention, that I don't want to get into such a convo with a known troublemaker, but you enjoy your life anyways.

Yochanan I'm sorry to hear that you have no English capabilities to translate.

[Torah613]

oh I do, but I don't think you could handle the reality of it.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

yes, but Je*us doesn't fulfill the prophecies regarding either. Let us also not forget that hte Rabbanim are divided on the issue of whether or nto there is a Moshiach ben Yosef.

Yochanan

I don't know. There is nothing below that the NT doesn't say about Jesus:

He was present at Creation
Genesis Rabbah 1:51

He would reveal himself and gather disciples in the Upper Galilee
Zohar 2:8a-9a; Hai Gaon, Responsum

He would clarify the Torah
Genesis Rabbah 98:9

He would appear riding on a donkey
Sanhedrin 98a; Genesis Rabbah 98:9

He would suffer and die for the sins of his people
Pesiqta Rabbatti 161a-b

He would be resurrected
Sukkah 52a

His name is ‘L-rd’ and he will be called by the name of the Holy One
Lamentations Rabbah 1:52; Bava Batra 75b

He will come on the clouds of Heaven
t. Bavli, Sanhedrin 98a

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

You are truly greater than any prophet that ever lived... for in the Bible all we have are prophets who speak crytpically in very esoteric and mystical words. Yet G-d speaks to you directly with precise years and dates. Surely you are above Moses.
Why has no one recognized your great power yet? I did say best guess. If a persons understanding of scripture is singular in regards to the fulfilment of prophecy. But the prophecies are two part. First he must come as the suffering Messiah. And after 2 days he will come in victorius glory. My best guess is that the two days started in 133 AD; when the Jewish people were finally defeated. 2 days + 133 = 2133 AD. Or in other words 133 AD = 0 day. Also 2300 - 167 BC = 2133.
I do not call myself a prophet.

[Torah613]

and is everyone a xtian? is everyone vegetarian? do lions eat grass? where is the third temple? where is world peace?

Don't give me that stuff about the second coming either. These prophecies must be fulfulled before someone is recognized as HaMoshiach. Thus saith the Torah.

[Torah613]

ok the numbers you give don't line up with either the torah or history. So are you just pulling them out of thin air?

Yochanan

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

oh I do, but I don't think you could handle the reality of it.

Yochanan Try me.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

ok the numbers you give don't line up with either the torah or history. So are you just pulling them out of thin air?

Yochanan 167 BC is when the Temple was taken over by the Hellenistic Jews. The other Jews who were in control of the Temple were forced to go live in the desert.

[ShirChadash]

Once someone knows what is required in order for people to see an individual as fulfilling any given expected role/prophecy/place, it's quite easy to paint a person into those very expectations, twist and re-define the role/prophecies etc., and declare that said person is in fact the embodiment of those requirements.

Case in point -- this cult group believes their "messiah" Wayne Bent/Michael Tavesser is Jesus returned to earth and all of the things you listed apply to him.

http://strongcity.info/LOR/sc/page/about_michael_travesser/

Wayne Bent is a very skilled manipulator, very capable and adept at twisting scripture to say what he wishes it to say, in order to validate himself. I would venture to say he is not the first to have deceived people as to the identity of G-d's Messiah.




I don't know. There is nothing below that the NT doesn't say about Jesus:


He was present at Creation
Genesis Rabbah 1:51

He would reveal himself and gather disciples in the Upper Galilee Zohar 2:8a-9a; Hai Gaon, Responsum

He would clarify the Torah
Genesis Rabbah 98:9

He would appear riding on a donkey
Sanhedrin 98a; Genesis Rabbah 98:9

He would suffer and die for the sins of his people
Pesiqta Rabbatti 161a-b

He would be resurrected
Sukkah 52a

His name is ‘L-rd’ and he will be called by the name of the Holy One
Lamentations Rabbah 1:52; Bava Batra 75b

He will come on the clouds of Heaven
Sanhedrin 98a

[Steve Petersen]

and is everyone a xtian? is everyone vegetarian? do lions eat grass? where is the third temple? where is world peace?

Don't give me that stuff about the second coming either. These prophecies must be fulfulled before someone is recognized as HaMoshiach. Thus saith the Torah.


Those are acts associated with ben David. The NT makes it clear that Jesus will perform those things when he appears as ben David. For now, he is ben Yosef (Ephraim) who suffers for the sins of Israel.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

and is everyone a xtian? is everyone vegetarian? do lions eat grass? where is the third temple? where is world peace?

Don't give me that stuff about the second coming either. These prophecies must be fulfulled before someone is recognized as HaMoshiach. Thus saith the Torah. Should the suffering Messiah come first or last?

[Steve Petersen]

The midrasim have him coming first.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Once someone knows what is required in order for people to see an individual as fulfilling any given expected role/prophecy/place, it's quite easy to paint a person into those very expectations, twist and re-define the role/prophecies etc., and declare that said person is in fact the embodiment of those requirements.

Case in point -- this cult group believes their "messiah" Wayne Bent/Michael Tavesser is Jesus returned to earth and all of the things you listed apply to him.

http://strongcity.info/LOR/sc/page/about_michael_travesser/

Wayne Bent is a very skilled manipulator, very capable and adept at twisting scripture to say what he wishes it to say, in order to validate himself. I would venture to say he is not the first to have deceived people as to the identity of G-d's Messiah. We are warned that many false Messiahs would come afterward.

[ShirChadash]

ST, you gotta admit that there are two messiahs postulated by the sages: ben Yosef and ben David. In the midrashim, ben Yosef is slain (for the sins of Israel no less!) and some time later (45 days?) is raised by ben David.

ben Yosef is no less Messiah than ben David. Just different roles.

So... was Jesus raised 45 days later, or three days later? And was he raised by a human moshiach (ben David?) or by G-d Himself? And if Jesus was moshiach ben yosef, why do we see the efforts to connect Jesus to David in his bloodline in the gentile texts, rather than parallels specifically to the hidden one (Joseph)?

[Steve Petersen]

Once someone knows what is required in order for people to see an individual as fulfilling any given expected role/prophecy/place, it's quite easy to paint a person into those very expectations, twist and re-define the role/prophecies etc., and declare that said person is in fact the embodiment of those requirements.

Case in point -- this cult group believes their "messiah" Wayne Bent/Michael Tavesser is Jesus returned to earth and all of the things you listed apply to him.

http://strongcity.info/LOR/sc/page/about_michael_travesser/

Wayne Bent is a very skilled manipulator, very capable and adept at twisting scripture to say what he wishes it to say, in order to validate himself. I would venture to say he is not the first to have deceived people as to the identity of G-d's Messiah.

Many of the sources I cited are later than Jesus. They were written by Jews who did not believe he was ben Yosef. Yet they mirror the NT ideas of Jesus. Sources that should be hostile to Jesus confirm the earlier NT ideas of messiah ben Yosef.

[ShirChadash]

We are warned that many false Messiahs would come afterward.
oh yes, we definitely were warned that many false messiahs would come. Which is why G-d detailed what Messiah must do and be in order to be Messiah. Next.

[Torah613]

good questions shir. It uses circulr logic.
Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

Is it too late to say "don't feed the trolls"?

Yochanan
eep. sorry. you're right. it's just nice to be able to answer for once, though I am sure these posts will get pulled just as quickly, once they come on the radar.

[Torah613]

yep I know.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

So... was Jesus raised 45 days later, or three days later?

Does it matter? The point is, that both sources recognized and interval of time between.

And was he raised by a human moshiach (ben David?) or by G-d Himself?

Ben David is something more than a human messiah. He was present at Creation and is called 'Adonai' according to one of the sources I posted.

Though we may not agree on the identity of Messiah, Jewish and NT sources frequently agree on the character and role of Messiah.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

yep I know.

Yochanan You can call me what ever you want. All I what from any Orthodox Jew is an honest answer. Based on scripture.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

You are truly greater than any prophet that ever lived... for in the Bible all we have are prophets who speak crytpically in very esoteric and mystical words. Yet G-d speaks to you directly with precise years and dates. Surely you are above Moses.
Why has no one recognized your great power yet? Because I'm not a prophet or the Messiah I do not have to speak in parables. I could be the person who is a prophet that says he is not. Figure that one if you like parables.

[ChavaK]

I would think that they would all be asking, where is the Messiah? Do they have some kind of unrealistic expectation?:confused:

We don't ask where the moshiach is, because he will come when
HaShem decides the time is right. We trust in HaShem and do
not question Him. When moshiach comes, he comes.

As a whole Judaism does not dwell on the moshiach.
He does not come to bring personal salvation, as Christians believe.
We live our lives accordingly as G-d commands; if we do that the
future will take care itself and moshiach will come when G-d
decrees it.

You can ask the same question of Christians, I guess- why do they
think it is taking so long for their messiah to return again? Why
the delay? Don't they wonder where he is?

[simchat_torah]

Yochanan,

If I were you, I'd present the translation. It is somewhat insulting as well as taunting to hold up a translation over someone's head simply by assuming they won't get it.

[simchat_torah]

Hi Steve,
ST, you gotta admit that there are two messiahs postulated by the sages: ben Yosef and ben David.Sure, I freely admit that... and have discussed it in quite length elsewhere (even in the MJ forums)
In the midrashim, ben Yosef is slain (for the sins of Israel no less!) and some time later (45 days?) is raised by ben David.Yes, so the Midrashim say. However, we simply don't believe Jesus was Moshiach ben Yosef for many reasons.

ben Yosef is no less Messiah than ben David. Just different roles.True. In fact, I could even strengthen your case and say that *some* sages even speculated that these two Messiahs were one in the same. But again, using our standards, Jesus was not Moshiach ben Yosef (and especially not ben David).

[Torah613]

You can call me what ever you want. All I what from any Orthodox Jew is an honest answer. Based on scripture.

Than go to your local library and pick up a copy of a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible. That is what we believe. the only thing in Judaism that could be defined as a creed is as follows:

Hear o Isreal, the Lord our G-d, the Lord is one.

Of course then there are the 13 principles of faith accordin tothe Rambam (Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, aka Maimonedes).

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

You can call me what ever you want. All I what from any Orthodox Jew is an honest answer. Based on scripture.
I'll be honest, I don't think you were looking for the above at all -- for two reasons:
1) you posted this in the Messianic forum, where Orthodox Jews certainly cannot answer freely, of which surely you must have some inkling after the last days to weeks of discussion there (unless I am mistaken, you have been involved in some of the threads)
2) your use of the phrases, "how come they don't believe Yahshua is the Messiah." and, "I would think that they would all be asking, where is the Messiah?" and, "Do they have some kind of unrealistic expectation?" leads me to know you didn't address this thread to Orthodox Jews nor did you expect a detailed answer from those who hold the views you are challenging -- there were no, "you" questions there. I am thinking instead that you were looking for Messianics to expound on the Orthodox position.

[ShirChadash]

Many of the sources I cited are later than Jesus. They were written by Jews who did not believe he was ben Yosef. Yet they mirror the NT ideas of Jesus. Sources that should be hostile to Jesus confirm the earlier NT ideas of messiah ben Yosef.
Sorry... I simply see that the theologies of christendom were pervasive in so much of the world's culture, I have no problems believing that even individual Jews were exposed to them, examined them and incorporated some of what they found acceptable, in making connections in their minds. The very fact that the sources are later than Jesus cements that for me.

[ShirChadash]

Does it matter? The point is, that both sources recognized and interval of time between.
Yes, Steve, it does matter.

I know that Christianity does all it can to "find" Jesus in any place and space where anything is ever thought of as pertaining to "Messiah", and the attempt is made to correlate those teachings to Jesus in any way possible. You want to argue his validity as a messiah who has an interim in his "work" by using a text that directly invalidates him, itself, and says he didn't qualify lol -- it's 45 days, not three, and you can't pick and choose what portion of the teaching you wish to correlate to him and what you do not (ie, you wish to connect the delay to him, but not the specified time of delay) -- and you seek to spiritualize the argument away by saying, "oh no matter, it's just an interval so it proves an interval is okay."


Ben David is something more than a human messiah. He was present at Creation and is called 'Adonai' according to one of the sources I posted. I realize Ben David is considered to have divine aspects and attributes. Are you asserting that Ben David is HaShem Himself?

[ShirChadash]

whoops, left my last reply off the previous post somehow...


Though we may not agree on the identity of Messiah, Jewish and NT sources frequently agree on the character and role of Messiah.
indeed -- cursorily. Of course, there is a vast difference in HOW we believe what we agree on cursorily. ;)

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I'll be honest, I don't think you were looking for the above at all -- for two reasons:
1) you posted this in the Messianic forum, where Orthodox Jews certainly cannot answer freely, of which surely you must have some inkling after the last days to weeks of discussion there (unless I am mistaken, you have been involved in some of the threads)
2) your use of the phrases, "how come they don't believe Yahshua is the Messiah." and, "I would think that they would all be asking, where is the Messiah?" and, "Do they have some kind of unrealistic expectation?" leads me to know you didn't address this thread to Orthodox Jews nor did you expect a detailed answer from those who hold the views you are challenging -- there were no, "you" questions there. I am thinking instead that you were looking for Messianics to expound on the Orthodox position. Perhaps you did not notice that I have not been around for a couple of months. I did not know that there was any reason this post could not be in the Messianic Forum. Anyway we are here now and I presume that it is fine for Orthodox Jews to tell me what they really think. Preferably based upon scripture. For as long as I have been here at Christian Forums, getting any Orthodox Jew to use scripture has been like trying to get blood out of a turnip.

[ShirChadash]

Perhaps you did not notice that I have not been around for a couple of months. I did not know that there was any reason this post could not be in the Messianic Forum. Anyway we are here now and I presume that it is fine for Orthodox Jews to tell me what they really think. Preferably based upon scripture. For as long as I have been here at Christian Forums, getting any Orthodox Jew to use scripture has been like trying to get blood out of a turnip.

well, that's interesting lol. You have been posting it up at least as recently as May 20th (five days ago) on the messianic forum. As someone who has been on very-recent threads, it is difficult for me to think you did not realize Orthodox Jews can't post too terribly freely in that forum, but no matter.

So, let me ask you, are you halachicly Jewish?

[Steve Petersen]

Yes, Steve, it does matter.

I know that Christianity does all it can to "find" Jesus in any place and space where anything is ever thought of as pertaining to "Messiah", and the attempt is made to correlate those teachings to Jesus in any way possible. You want to argue his validity as a messiah who has an interim in his "work" by using a text that directly invalidates him, itself, and says he didn't qualify lol -- it's 45 days, not three, and you can't pick and choose what portion of the teaching you wish to correlate to him and what you do not (ie, you wish to connect the delay to him, but not the specified time of delay) -- and you seek to spiritualize the argument away by saying, "oh no matter, it's just an interval so it proves an interval is okay."

Some Lubavitchers hold to the same kind of thinking regarding the late Rebbe, and more. Are they not 'orthodox Jews?"

I realize Ben David is considered to have divine aspects and attributes. Are you asserting that Ben David is HaShem Himself?

I am leaving the door open. I am not aware of any other Jewish figures who have been called 'Adonai.'

[ShirChadash]

Some Lubavitchers hold to the same kind of thinking regarding the late Rebbe, and more. Are they not 'orthodox Jews?"

Are you saying you think the Lubavitchers consider the Rebbe (their "Messiah") to have been י ה ו ה?

I am leaving the door open. I am not aware of any other Jewish figures who have been called 'Adonai.' Are you saying you believe Adonai, "Lord", in reference to the Messiah, to mean י ה ו ה ?

[Talmidah]

Are you saying you think the Lubavitchers consider the Rebbe (their "Messiah") to have been י ה ו ה? There are some who do and these have gone outside of Judaism. Unfortunately not much is being said about it openly at this point, partly because of embarrassment, partly because of hopes that these people will leave their errors and return to normative Judaism. However, I wouldn't be surprised if in years to come you see the same type of phenomenon happen with them breaking away as with the Christians when they continued in their error early on.

[ShirChadash]

Ay yi yi.

There are some who do and these have gone outside of Judaism. Unfortunately not much is being said about it openly at this point, partly because of embarrassment, partly because of hopes that these people will leave their errors and return to normative Judaism. However, I wouldn't be surprised if in years to come you see the same type of phenomenon happen with them breaking away as with the Christians when they continued in their error early on.

Thanks for posting, Tal. Yes, that was to be my point in asking -- anyone who considers any Messiah to be HaShem would indeed be outside the fold of Judaism.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

well, that's interesting lol. You have been posting it up at least as recently as May 20th (five days ago) on the messianic forum. As someone who has been on very-recent threads, it is difficult for me to think you did not realize Orthodox Jews can't post too terribly freely in that forum, but no matter.

So, let me ask you, are you halachically Jewish? I do not fully understand that word hierarchical. I do keep the 10 commandments and most all of the others. I did hear of some Orthodox Jews say they could not speak freely.

[Steve Petersen]

Are you saying you think the Lubavitchers consider the Rebbe (their "Messiah") to have been י ה ו ה?

I have had discussions with mainstream Jewish folks (not Messianics) over on another forum who said that there is a faction of Lubavitchers that believe the Rebbe is Adonai.

Are you saying you believe Adonai, "Lord", in reference to the Messiah, to mean י ה ו ה ?

Bava Batra 75b cites Jeremiah 23:6 'adonai tzidkenu' as a name of Messiah.

R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Johanan: Three were called by the name of the Holy One; blessed be He, and they are the following: The righteous, the Messiah and Jerusalem. [This may be inferred as regards] the righteous [from] what has just been said. [As regards] the Messiah — it is written: And this is the name whereby he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness.

Philo says this of Messiah:

I have heard also an oracle from the lips of one of the disciples of Moses which runs thus: Behold, a man whose name is the rising (Zech. 6:12) But if you suppose that it is that the Incorporeal One, who differs not a whit from the divine image, you will agree that the name 'rising' assigned to him quite truly describes him. For that man is the eldest son, whom the Father of all raised up, and elsewhere calls him his first-born, and indeed the son begotten followed the ways of his father and shaped the different kinds...
De Confusione Linguarum 4:45


Lamentations Rabbah 1:51 says this:

BECAUSE THE COMFORTER IS FAR FROM ME, EVEN HE THAT SHOULD REFRESH MY SOUL. What is the name of King Messiah? R. Abba b. Kahana said: His name is ‘the Lord’; as it is stated, And this is the name whereby he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness (Jer. XXIII, 6)

[ShirChadash]

Bava Batra 75b cites Jeremiah 23:6 'adonai tzidkenu' as a name of Messiah.

Are there not instances of using Adonai to refer to one other than HaShem?
In what way is calling the Messiah the Lord of righteousness or the Lord is our righteousness the same as calling him HaShem directly?

[Steve Petersen]

Are there not instances of using Adonai to refer to one other than HaShem?
In what way is calling the Messiah the Lord of righteousness or the Lord is our righteousness the same as calling him HaShem directly?

I think the NT concept of God manifesting Himself as a man in not far removed from the Jewish concepts of the Memra, the Shekinah, or the
Kabbalistic theory of sefirot.

Philippians 2:5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus, 6 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-6.htm) who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, 7 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-7.htm) but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=399&letter=M&search=memra

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=438&letter=S&search=sefirot

[ShirChadash]

I think the NT concept of God manifesting Himself as a man in not far removed from the Jewish concepts of the Memra, the Shekinah, or the
Kabbalistic theory of sefirot.

Philippians 2:5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus, 6 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-6.htm) who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, 7 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-7.htm) but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=399&letter=M&search=memra

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=438&letter=S&search=sefirot

Yes, I'm familiar with all of the above concepts, both Judaic and Christian thought regarding them. I do find that concept too far removed, yes, personally. However, could you answer my questions, please?

Are there not instances of using Adonai to refer to one other than HaShem?
In what way is calling the Messiah the Lord of righteousness or the Lord is our righteousness the same as calling him HaShem directly?

Adonai does not remotely necessarily always refer to HaShem, nor does calling or even naming someone The Lord our Righteousness, or The Lord is our Righteousness, automatically mean that person *is HaShem, Who is our Righteousness*. If I name my son Jesse (which, if I recall correctly, means the Lord exists) it's not the same as deciding or declaring that he is the embodiment of HaShem.

[Steve Petersen]

Adonai does not remotely necessarily always refer to HaShem, nor does calling or even naming someone The Lord our Righteousness, or The Lord is our Righteousness, automatically mean that person *is HaShem, Who is our Righteousness*. If I name my son Jesse (which, if I recall correctly, means the Lord exists) it's not the same as deciding or declaring that he is the embodiment of HaShem.

I'll grant you that; will you then respond to Philo's statement about messiah?

Perhaps you could expound on the differences between the NT portrayal of Jesus and Jewish concepts of the memra, the sefirot, or the shekinah.

[ShirChadash]

I'll grant you that; will you then respond to Philo's statement about messiah?
I have to go be a mom for a while. Let me look into the Philo again and come back to this. To be honest, I don't personally esteem Philo nor read him anymore, so I will have to re-read what you quoted. *shrug*


Perhaps you could expound on the differences between the NT portrayal of Jesus and Jewish concepts of the memra, the sefirot, or the shekinah. I'd really rather not, ugh. I assumed (and I believe, judging from your posts) you are well aware, Steve, of the differences in the treatment of Jesus both in the NT and in well-received Christian thought, as compared to the Jewish (not Messianic or Hebrew Christian) understanding of Memra, the Sefirot and the Sh'kinah. To be frank, Jesus became an utter non-issue for me long enough ago, and I don't often spend time on examining and drawing the parallels and divergences any more now that I have lain them to rest in my own mind.

Shalom, have a good afternoon.

[Steve Petersen]

The idea that God would limit Himself in order to reveal Himself is not far removed from the concept of incarnation. It is just a matter of degrees.

[ChavaK]

For as long as I have been here at Christian Forums, getting any Orthodox Jew to use scripture has been like trying to get blood out of a turnip.

I suspect that is because we only want to be left alone.
We do not need to justify our beliefs because it is
irrelevant what others think of our beliefs, and we are
not out to convert anyone.

Also, every time we use Oral Torah , Christians shout us down that
"you can't use man made laws". We don't agree what scripture
is.

So who needs it?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I suspect that is because we only want to be left alone.
We do not need to justify our beliefs because it is
irrelevant what others think of our beliefs, and we are
not out to convert anyone.

Also, every time we use Oral Torah , Christians shout us down that
"you can't use man made laws". We don't agree what scripture
is.

So who needs it? If your faith is not worth defending, then how great is that faith? Even Christians disagree among themselves; but at least there is dialog. Your faith sounds like a Jews (Hebrews) only club.

[ShirChadash]

If your faith is not worth defending, then how great is that faith? Even Christians disagree among themselves; but at least there is dialog. Your faith sounds like a Jews (Hebrews) only club.
Judaism needs no defending. And let me speak in terminology you should understand -- we are not the "Holy Spirit" in anyone else's lives, MTAA, nor do we seek to be. The answers you seek are readily available, at the filling in of a google window; no one here is going to try to convince you.

[ChavaK]

If your faith is not worth defending, then how great is that faith? Even Christians disagree among themselves; but at least there is dialog. Your faith sounds like a Jews (Hebrews) only club.

Without sounding rude, why would we want to defend
our beliefs to someone? Whether we choose to defend it
or not has no relevance to it's "greatness".

What others believe, what they think about Judaism, is irrelevant.
When you get right down to it, "defending" it is an attempt to
justify in the eyes of a non-Jew. And since we have no need
to do that, or convert people, why bother?

In the long run, most of the time (but admittedly, not all of the time)
these little innocent questions end up being a not so subtly
disguised attempt to convert Jews.

And of course, it is a Jews only religion...it is Judaism after all.

[visionary]

And of course, it is a Jews only religion...it is Judaism after all.Is that exclusive or can it be acceptable for gentile loving Yeshua people also like to be more judaic in worship too?
__________________

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Without sounding rude, why would we want to defend
our beliefs to someone? Whether we choose to defend it
or not has no relevance to it's "greatness".

What others believe, what they think about Judaism, is irrelevant.
When you get right down to it, "defending" it is an attempt to
justify in the eyes of a non-Jew. And since we have no need
to do that, or convert people, why bother?

In the long run, most of the time (but admittedly, not all of the time)
these little innocent questions end up being a not so subtly
disguised attempt to convert Jews.

And of course, it is a Jews only religion...it is Judaism after all. OK, your not interested in converts, and you don't like to use scripture. Hmmm, what else can I squeeze out of you.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Judaism needs no defending. And let me speak in terminology you should understand -- we are not the "Holy Spirit" in anyone else's lives, MTAA, nor do we seek to be. The answers you seek are readily available, at the filling in of a google window; no one here is going to try to convince you. OK then, you don't care to share your faith with others. Is there anything else you can tell me?

[ShirChadash]

LOL, you sure like to read into others' replies and assume your own spin on things, don't you?

[ChavaK]

OK, your not interested in converts, and you don't like to use scripture. Hmmm, what else can I squeeze out of you.

LOL, well how about just straight forward questions?
What Jews believe, without all the rigamarole about
prove this, prove that...;)

[ChavaK]

Is that exclusive or can it be acceptable for gentile loving Yeshua people also like to be more judaic in worship too?
__________________

It is not exclusive in that anyone can convert and become a Jew.

[ShirChadash]

It is not exclusive in that anyone can convert and become a Jew.
B"H! :clap:

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

LOL, you sure like to read into others' replies and assume your own spin on things, don't you? If I have made an incorrect assumption, then you should inform me of what that is.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

LOL, well how about just straight forward questions?
What Jews believe, without all the rigamarole about
prove this, prove that...;) Well proof is a good thing. For the past two years I have been trying to get any Orthodox Jew to use scripture as to what they believe, and why. That is in regards to why they don't believe Yahshua to be the suffering Messiah. USEING SCRIPTURE.

[ShirChadash]

Well proof is a good thing. For the past two years I have been trying to get any Orthodox Jew to use scripture as to what they believe, and why. That is in regards to why they don't believe Yahshua to be the suffering Messiah. USEING SCRIPTURE.

To quote a wise woman, "We don't agree what scripture
is." And your other posts have always made it quite clear you do not esteem the Jewish position, MT. Aside from ethical considerations, it is pointless to engage in "defending our faith", and really it is no one's responsibility to try to convince or even argue with you.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

To quote a wise woman, "We don't agree what scripture
is." And your other posts have always made it quite clear you do not esteem the Jewish position, MT. Aside from ethical considerations, it is pointless to engage in "defending our faith", and really it is no one's responsibility to try to convince or even argue with you. It would be good to know what scripture we disagree upon, and why. Is it pointless to defend your faith or impossible?

[ShirChadash]

LOL
It would be good to know what scripture we disagree upon, and why. Is it pointless to defend your faith or impossible?
1) it is pointless to waste time defending our faith as 2) it is impossible to do so to any valid end to one who has no esteem for Judaism or real care to learn.

Do you actually read others' posts, or do you just see something you want to argue and run straight to replying, rather than reading the rest of what they wrote?

ETA ^I ask the above, because Chava was very clear in her post as to what we disagree upon, but I am wondering if MTAA read far enough into it to see her point.

[visionary]

Any more personal attacks and this thread will have to be closed... at an impass. I have found that those who run out of articulate statements revert to slander and personal attacks. If this thread continues in this direction, I will deem it to have no edification for either party and close it.

[simchat_torah]

Some Lubavitchers hold to the same kind of thinking regarding the late Rebbe, and more. Are they not 'orthodox Jews?"I don't know a single one who believes the Rebbe to be HaShem. Certainly some believe the late Rebbe to be the Messiah, but not HaShem.
There are some who do and these have gone outside of Judaism. I would respectfully disagree with Talmidah here. Certainly they are in error for believing in a false Messiah... but this does not make one apostate. It is the belief in a man-god that makes one apostate. Adonai Echad, He is one. The one thing that separates Messianics from Judaism is not Jesus, but rather it is the trinity. If they did not believe their Messiah was a G-d, the they would merely be heretical, as the sect of Lubavitchers that holds to the Rebbe as Moshiach.

[simchat_torah]

I have had discussions with mainstream Jewish folks (not Messianics) over on another forum who said that there is a faction of Lubavitchers that believe the Rebbe is Adonai.This is a misnomer... a common misconception. None of the Lubavitchers believe the late Rebbe to be HaShem.
I think the NT concept of God manifesting Himself as a man in not far removed from the Jewish concepts of the Memra, the Shekinah, or the
Kabbalistic theory of sefirot.Whoa whoa whoa...
The Memra is merely the manifestation of divine power, not a distinct personality, and the same goes for the Shekinah. Nor were either of these recognized as G-d, nor worshipped as such.
And as far as the Sefirot, they are merely attributes... NOT distinct personalities as in the trinity. Comparing these to Christianity's view of the trinity is in grave error... grave error indeed.

[simchat_torah]

For as long as I have been here at Christian Forums, getting any Orthodox Jew to use scripture has been like trying to get blood out of a turnip.I know you're not talking about me MTAA... for if you are, the I want some of what you're smoking.

[simchat_torah]

Perhaps you could expound on the differences between the NT portrayal of Jesus and Jewish concepts of the memra, the sefirot, or the shekinah.I think I've handled that succinctly up above.

[simchat_torah]

Is that exclusive or can it be acceptable for gentile loving Yeshua people also like to be more judaic in worship too?Hi Vis,

Let me remind you that half the people talking to you here in this thread are converts ;)

[simchat_torah]

Well proof is a good thing. For the past two years I have been trying to get any Orthodox Jew to use scripture as to what they believe, and why. That is in regards to why they don't believe Yahshua to be the suffering Messiah. USEING SCRIPTURE.I think you're playing theatrics now... this is the first time you've asked. Don't lie.

[Steve Petersen]

The Memra is merely the manifestation of divine power, not a distinct personality, and the same goes for the Shekinah. Nor were either of these recognized as G-d, nor worshipped as such..
And as far as the Sefirot, they are merely attributes... NOT distinct personalities as in the trinity. Comparing these to Christianity's view of the trinity is in grave error... grave error indeed.

Have I mentioned the trinity?

It is rather obvious that any manifestation of the infinite God is going to be limited, thus not a complete representation of Him. Take a cup of sea water. It is certainly sea water, but it is hardly the sea. Its essence though is the same. Sefirot, memra, and Messiah fall into that catagory.

[simchat_torah]

Have I mentioned the trinity?Yes, albeit in a round-a-bout. You compared the Shekinah, Memra, and Sefirot to the view of Jesus in Christianity... which, is a trinitarian view... and thus has no comparison to the Shekinah, Memra, or Sephirot in Judaism.

[Steve Petersen]

Yes, albeit in a round-a-bout. You compared the Shekinah, Memra, and Sefirot to the view of Jesus in Christianity... which, is a trinitarian view... and thus has no comparison to the Shekinah, Memra, or Sephirot in Judaism.

I don't recall mentioning Christianity's view of Jesus, but I do recall using the words 'NT view of Jesus.'

[simchat_torah]

ShirChadash's post #51 & 52 address Christianity. Your subsequent replies were answering Christianity's belief in the Messiah (see your post #56, your direct response to the claims made about Christianity.. you even quoted her discussing Christianity). Yes, you are correct that you eventually flipped it to "NT" instead of Christianity, but your replies were not distinctly separate from the conversation at hand regarding Christianity. In fact, you quoted those you were in a discussion with... and gave answers to Christianity. How are we to know you changed the religion you were addressing by simply using "NT" when the "NT" is the very basis of Christianity?

so... no... I'm not going to take a razor blade and separate out a single post where you stated "NT" instead of "christianity" and assume you were now speaking of some other religion other than Christianity. That would be unfair to the dialogue thus far.

[Steve Petersen]

ShirChadash's post #51 & 52 address Christianity. Your subsequent replies were answering Christianity's belief in the Messiah (see your post #56, your direct response to the claims made about Christianity.. you even quoted her discussing Christianity). Yes, you are correct that you eventually flipped it to "NT" instead of Christianity, but your replies were not distinctly separate from the conversation at hand regarding Christianity. In fact, you quoted those you were in a discussion with... and gave answers to Christianity. How are we to know you changed the religion you were addressing by simply using "NT" when the "NT" is the very basis of Christianity?

so... no... I'm not going to take a razor blade and separate out a single post where you stated "NT" instead of "christianity" and assume you were now speaking of some other religion other than Christianity. That would be unfair to the dialogue thus far.

The NT examined in light of Second Temple Judaism reads somewhat differently from Christian tradition. I am no defender of Christian dogma. I have repeatedly brought this back to Jewish sources and I believe there are congruencies between the NT and other Jewish sources that NEITHER side should ignore.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I think you're playing theatrics now... this is the first time you've asked. Don't lie. Last year I tried to engage a person who called himself Rabbi. I also complained to him that he was not useing scripture or defining differences. And before that I was on other websites with the same issues. And still no scripture or edification.

[simchat_torah]

Let's see, you said:
For the past two years I have been trying to get any Orthodox Jew to use scripture as to what they believe, and why.
To which I will flatly state you're lying. In response, you said: Last year I tried to engage a personA Person? Just one?

So you were lying when you said you were trying to get any Orthodox Jew to respond. In fact, you've only asked one.

MTAA, these are theatrics, and I will stop you every time you try them with me.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Let's see, you said:

To which I will flatly state you're lying. In response, you said:A Person? Just one?

So you were lying when you said you were trying to get any Orthodox Jew to respond. In fact, you've only asked one.

MTAA, these are theatrics, and I will stop you every time you try them with me. Again: The Rabbi, you, or any others. And again: Before here at this website; OTHER websites. Same story over and over and over again.

[simchat_torah]

The NT examined in light of Second Temple Judaism reads somewhat differently from Christian tradition. I am no defender of Christian dogma. I have repeatedly brought this back to Jewish sources and I believe there are congruencies between the NT and other Jewish sources that NEITHER side should ignore.
Ok, but the discussion was about Christianity. You even quoted that and gave a reply. I understand not wanting to defend Christian Dogma, really I do. But if you want to split off from the discussion, please make note of it, or it will appear you're giving an answer for Christianity ;)

[Steve Petersen]

Ok, but the discussion was about Christianity. You even quoted that and gave a reply. I understand not wanting to defend Christian Dogma, really I do. But if you want to split off from the discussion, please make note of it, or it will appear you're giving an answer for Christianity ;)

Guess I'm just a little too subtle for some folk. :cool:

[simchat_torah]

Again: The Rabbi, you, or any othersWell, you've never asked it here on this website before, though you claim one single person you did make an attempt.. even though I think that is dubious.

But fine, I have answered you with a scripture and will again:
Adonai Echad

In other words, Jesus runs counter to the very quintessential statement of faith in Judaism... which just so happens to be a "scripture".
Sh'ma Ysira'el, Adonai Eloheynu, Adonai Echad.
-Deut. 6

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I guess if you don't have a leg to stand on, then hop around the issues. This is where the pee pee dance is done.

[ChavaK]

There are a gazillion anti-missionary sites that can provide
answers to any questions that you have, citing scripture.
I think most of us tire of answering the same thing over
and over- if you want web site addresses, we can PM
them to you because I don't think we can list them here..

[simchat_torah]

Seems my answer only made him pee.

How about a few more specifics... from scripture?

Jesus did not

Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)

Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6)

Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).


The Jews believe that:

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

The Jews DON'T believe that:

"alma" in Isa. 7:14 refers to a virgin.

the Messiah will be "crucified". The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

the book of Isaiah chapter 53 refers to the messiah as the "suffering servant." In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.



From Aish:CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY
The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination.
A. GOD AS THREE?
The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.
In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.
B. MAN AS GOD?
Roman Catholics believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).
Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)
C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?
The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."
In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)
D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD
Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.
By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.
The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it.

Is that enough "scriptures" for you MTAA?


Let me know, cause I could go on a good deal more

-Yafet

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Well, you've never asked it here on this website before, though you claim one single person you did make an attempt.. even though I think that is dubious.

But fine, I have answered you with a scripture and will again:
Adonai Echad

In other words, Jesus runs counter to the very quintessential statement of faith in Judaism... which just so happens to be a "scripture".
Sh'ma Ysira'el, Adonai Eloheynu, Adonai Echad.
-Deut. 6 OK, I read Deut 6. I thought I should tell you that Im a Non-Trin.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

There are a gazillion anti-missionary sites that can provide
answers to any questions that you have, citing scripture.
I think most of us tire of answering the same thing over
and over- if you want web site addresses, we can PM
them to you because I don't think we can list them here.. Sure, send me PM,s.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Seems my answer only made him pee.

How about a few more specifics... from scripture?
In Christianity this part has to do with the second coming.
Jesus did not

Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)

Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6)

Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).


The Jews believe that:
My understanding is that a maiden will be with child. Also Psalms says a body was created for him (Yahshua). Im not sure but I think the King David thing is by decree of Yahwah.
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

The Jews DON'T believe that:

"alma" in Isa. 7:14 refers to a virgin.

the Messiah will be "crucified". The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet." To me gouged = pierced.

the book of Isaiah chapter 53 refers to the messiah as the "suffering servant." In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun. You lost me on this one.



From Aish:
Is that enough "scriptures" for you MTAA?


Let me know, cause I could go on a good deal more

-Yafet More please.

[simchat_torah]

OK, I read Deut 6. I thought I should tell you that Im a Non-Trin.
Then you know that Judaism and Christianity are at odds by very definition, all because of this one small fact.

But, there's a whole slew of "scriptures" left unasnwered in my last post. Lemme know when you're ready.

[simchat_torah]

More please.
I think you've got plenty to respond to thus far. Besides, your baseless challenge has been answered. Yes, Jews can defend themselves using scripture. That was the point of this whole thread, right?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Then you know that Judaism and Christianity are at odds by very definition, all because of this one small fact.

But, there's a whole slew of "scriptures" left unasnwered in my last post. Lemme know when you're ready. Im ready. If you want you can send them PM or I can PM my email.

[LadyGarnetRose]

In Christianity this part has to do with the second coming.

Show me where, chapter and verse, in the tanakh that there is a Second Coming.

And not some out there "well this means"... But an outright telling that The Redeemer will come more than once.

[simchat_torah]

Ah, I didn't even see it because he put his words in my quote...
In Christianity this part has to do with the second coming.Let me quote from a friend of mine named MichaelTheeArchAngel:
Show me from scripture:
1) That there will be 2 comings.
2) that this "part" has to do with the second coming

and please only use scripture, as my friend MichaelTheeArchAngel only accepts that as proof.

[GerTzedek]

Regarding the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53: it refers to Israel. Context of the preceding chapters makes this clear over and over and over again:

Isaiah 41:8-9
But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend. Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from it nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you.

Isaiah 44:1-2
Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant and Israel, whom I have chosen. So said the Lord your Maker, and He who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44:21
Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art My servant; I have formed thee; thou art My servant, O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of Me.

Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name . . . .

Isaiah 48:20
Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."

Isaiah 49:3
And said to me, thou art My servant, O Israel in whom I will be glorified!

[GerTzedek]

The OP of this thread uses the following format:

"Christians accept that you reap what you sow. Why is it that they reject the notion of karma? Can they not see the inherent logic of reincarnation?"

The entire question is not only illogical, it is phrased to insult.

Troll troll troll troll troll.....

You don't deserve an answer.

[ShirChadash]

Show me where, chapter and verse, in the tanakh that there is a Second Coming.

And not some out there "well this means"... But an outright telling that The Redeemer will come more than once.
THANK YOU. I am so SO tired of the spiritualizing-away exaplanation that is done every. single. time. any theology in Christianity can not be plainly supported and argued from the Scriptures.

[ShirChadash]

The OP of this thread uses the following format:

"Christians accept that you reap what you sow. Why is it that they reject the notion of karma? Can they not see the inherent logic of reincarnation?"

The entire question is not only illogical, it is phrased to insult.

Troll troll troll troll troll.....

You don't deserve an answer. So I said, and so I agree. But now I suppose the thread will be closed because you dared call his posting behavior for what it is.

I'm pretty sure MTAA intended this thread to be left in the messianic section and answered by non-Rabbinic Jews, hoping to cause some upset and division and maybe get the Orthodox into hot water if any replied.

But at least Steve has posted thoughtfully and made the thread worth something dialogue-wise.

[visionary]

Jeremiah 23:5 "Behold, the days come, saith the Eternal, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth"

Isaiah 2:2-4 "And it shall come to pass, in the last days, that the mountain of the External's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and ALL NATIONS shall flow unto it! And MANY PEOPLE shall go and say, 'come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Eternal, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Eternal from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many PEOPLE: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more".

Micah 4 "... in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make him afraid: for the mouth of the Eternal of hosts hath spoken it. For all people will walk everyone in the name of his God, and we will walk in the name of the Eternal our God forever and ever. In that day, saith the Eternal, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted: And I will make her that halteth [the remnant of Israel] a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the Eternal shall reign over them IN MOUNT ZION from henceforth, even forever!"

Isaiah 24:1-17 "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; Because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned and FEW MEN LEFT ... They shall not drink wine…To them that drink it. . . . Every house is shut up, that no man may come in. ... When thus it shall be in the midst of the land AMONG THE PEOPLE. . . THEY shall lift up their voice ... THEY shall sigh for the majesty of the Eternal, THEY shall cry aloud from the sea. ... Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O INHABITANT OF THE EARTH"

Is 24:3-6 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.
The earth mourns and fades away, the world languishes and fades away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Isaiah 11:4-12, "But with righteousness shall He judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the EARTH and He shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the suckling child shall play on the hole of the asp and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den, They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, for the EARTH shall be full of the knowledge of the Eternal, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse [Yeshua], which shall stand for an ensign for the people; to which shall the Gentiles [nations on this earth!] seek: and His rest [the millennial reign of Yeshua] shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass, in that day [shortly after the second coming of Christ, and as the government of God is being set up on the earth], that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the Islands of the sea. And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth ... And there shall be an highway for the remnant of His people, which shall be LEFT, from Assyria, like as it was to Israel in the day that he came out of the land of Egypt".

Zechariah 14:4-19

"And his [Yeshua's] feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, ... And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. ... And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

Zep 2:11 "The LORD will be terrible unto them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the heathen."

Ezekiel 36 thru 48, speaks of how the waste places will be rebuilt after the Lords return.

47:10 "And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim [cities on the west bank of the dead sea]; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many." 48:35 "... from that day shall be, the Lord is there."

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

So I said, and so I agree. But now I suppose the thread will be closed because you dared call his posting behavior for what it is.

I'm pretty sure MTAA intended this thread to be left in the messianic section and answered by non-Rabbinic Jews, hoping to cause some upset and division and maybe get the Orthodox into hot water if any replied.

But at least Steve has posted thoughtfully and made the thread worth something dialogue-wise. I definitely want to get some kind of action out of you. I'm not luring anyone to cause trouble, usually some one interferes with my conversations. If I'm trolling, I'm trolling for answers, not trouble. I did want the thread to be in Messianic to be answered by any Orthodox Jews. I have been told that we may discuss these subjects here freely. I hope that is true. I'm trolling for answers and dialog.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Regarding the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53: it refers to Israel. Context of the preceding chapters makes this clear over and over and over again:

Isaiah 41:8-9
But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend. Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from it nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you.

Isaiah 44:1-2
Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant and Israel, whom I have chosen. So said the Lord your Maker, and He who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44:21
Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art My servant; I have formed thee; thou art My servant, O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of Me.

Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name . . . .

Isaiah 48:20
Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."

Isaiah 49:3
And said to me, thou art My servant, O Israel in whom I will be glorified! Because Isaiah is speaking in parables there is also a second meaning. You are correct in saying that Yahwah is talking about the people and nation, but also included in those passages in parabolic form is Yahshua being talked about. As for one example. Cyrus also means my inheritor.

[ShirChadash]

A word to the wise communicator, M,...

I definitely want to get some kind of action out of you. I'm not luring anyone to cause trouble, usually some one interferes with my conversations. If I'm trolling, I'm trolling for answers, not trouble. I did want the thread to be in Messianic to be answered by any Orthodox Jews. I have been told that we may discuss these subjects here freely. I hope that is true. I'm trolling for answers and dialog.
You do not ask for them by beginning your request with a disdainful comment like:

Do they have some kind of unrealistic expectation?

[ShirChadash]

Because Isaiah is speaking in parables there is also a second meaning. You are correct in saying that Yahwah is talking about the people and nation, but also included in those passages in parabolic form is Yahshua being talked about.
Where is the scripture that tells you to read and understand this passage in this way?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Show me where, chapter and verse, in the tanakh that there is a Second Coming.

And not some out there "well this means"... But an outright telling that The Redeemer will come more than once. The words "second coming" are not used in scripture. What a person has to do is look closely at the time prophecies. Because there is a 140 gap between the Holy Hebrew Calender and the Civil Hebrew Calender, you will need to take that into concideration. Altogether there is a 144 year gap between the Civil Hebrew Calender and the Gregorian Calender. 5760 + 140 = 5900. 6000 = the sixth day. There is only one Messiah, not two. He must first come as the suffering Messiah, and latter in all glory. In the first coming of the Messiah he must be rejected by the people of Israel.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Where is the scripture that tells you to read and understand this passage in this way? Throughout scripture are the words, dream, vision, riddle and parable. These words inform us that we need to look for a second meaning. There are parables even in places where scripture gives no clue that there is a second meaning.

[ShirChadash]

The words "second coming" are not used in scripture. What a person has to do is look closely at the time prophecies. Because there is a 140 gap between the Holy Hebrew Calender and the Civil Hebrew Calender, you will need to take that into concideration. Altogether there is a 144 year gap between the Civil Hebrew Calender and the Gregorian Calender. 5760 + 140 = 5900. 6000 = the sixth day. There is only one Messiah, not two. He must first come as the suffering Messiah, and latter in all glory. In the first coming of the Messiah he must be rejected by the people of Israel.
So... this is your reckoning, but you must interpret this into the scripture as it does not, anywhere, clearly state: "this is what you have to do -- look closely at the time prophecies and interpret the 140 gap between...blahblah... and make sure you take into account the gregorian calendar and... blahblah..." That sort of reckoning is not at all what you yourself asked for in this dialogue, which is... let me quote:
That is in regards to why they don't believe Yahshua to be the suffering Messiah. USEING SCRIPTURE.
You expect the Jews to adhere to a standard you won't adhere to. So lets get back to your requirement -- scripture only.

[ShirChadash]

Throughout scripture are the words, dream, vision, riddle and parable. These words inform us that we need to look for a second meaning. There are parables even in places where scripture gives no clue that there is a second meaning.

again --

Where is the scripture that tells you to read and understand this passage in this way?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

again --

Where is the scripture that tells you to read and understand this passage in this way?
I do not like to say that I was or am inspired by God, because it is not believable. And so I try to use reason as a tool. If a person is telling you a parable, then you don't won't to be to literal.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

So... this is your reckoning, but you must interpret this into the scripture as it does not, anywhere, clearly state: "this is what you have to do -- look closely at the time prophecies and interpret the 140 gap between...blahblah... and make sure you take into account the gregorian calendar and... blahblah..." That sort of reckoning is not at all what you yourself asked for in this dialogue, which is... let me quote:

You expect the Jews to adhere to a standard you won't adhere to. So lets get back to your requirement -- scripture only.
[/COLOR] I presumed that you are well studied in scripture. If you need me to quote scripture, then I will.

[simchat_torah]

The words "second coming" are not used in scripture.
So you fail at your own standard? Yet you want to hold others to that standard.
Its called hypocrisy.

[ShirChadash]

So, if you can use your own reckoning, human as it is... I assume using the Oral Torah which Jews understand is part and parcel of the whole of Torah, would be suitable for Jews in reply to you, now? No "Scripture only" demands, now that you can't adhere to that requirement yourself and must interpret what you read in order to hold your own theories?

[simchat_torah]

I presumed that you are well studied in scripture. If you need me to quote scripture, then I will.
Please adhere to your own standards or you are a hypocrite.

[ShirChadash]

I presumed that you are well studied in scripture. If you need me to quote scripture, then I will.
Yes, please. And the scripture I asked for is this one:

Where is the scripture that tells you to read and understand that particular passage in that way?

[simchat_torah]

Where is the scripture that tells you to read and understand that particular passage in that way?
heh, it doesn't exist. It is borrowed from Jewish tradition.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Yes, please. And the scripture I asked for is this one:

Where is the scripture that tells you to read and understand that particular passage in that way? If you really must know, I prayed to have it revealed to me.
Isaiah 44:28
who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt," and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." '

Isaiah 45:1
"This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:

Isaiah 45:13
I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness: I will make all his ways straight. He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free, but not for a price or reward, says the LORD Almighty."

Who is Yahwah's Inheritor, Shepherd and His Anointed?

[simchat_torah]

If you really must know, I prayed to have it revealed to m
So... you are a hypocrite, demanding higher levels of proof from others which you can not provide yourself, eh?

[ShirChadash]

If you really must know, I prayed to have it revealed to me.:o

[simchat_torah]

Hmmm, I thought that this thread was called "What do Orthodox Jews believe?", and not "Let us debate amongst ourselves as Messianics putting words into the mouths of Orthodox Jews, all while condemning them from the start".

But then, maybe I misread the title of the thread?

[simchat_torah]

So I was reading this line once again:If you really must know, I prayed to have it revealed to me.And a quote came to mind. A wise man once said:I would still use caution believing anyone's interpretation. Do you know who said this?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Hmmm, I thought that this thread was called "What do Orthodox Jews believe?", and not "Let us debate amongst ourselves as Messianics putting words into the mouths of Orthodox Jews, all while condemning them from the start".

But then, maybe I misread the title of the thread? Hey, don't you guys know that you can not keep a troll as a pet without feeding it. Where is that anti-missionary scripture?

[LadyGarnetRose]

The words "second coming" are not used in scripture. What a person has to do is look closely at the time prophecies. Because there is a 140 gap between the Holy Hebrew Calender and the Civil Hebrew Calender, you will need to take that into concideration. Altogether there is a 144 year gap between the Civil Hebrew Calender and the Gregorian Calender. 5760 + 140 = 5900. 6000 = the sixth day. There is only one Messiah, not two. He must first come as the suffering Messiah, and latter in all glory. In the first coming of the Messiah he must be rejected by the people of Israel.

Show scripture of the rejection, show scripture that he will "come again".



Show the proof of the calendar gap.

It's already been shown that Isaiah 53 is not about the Redeemer but Israel as a whole. So as they say in Missouri, Show Me.

[ShirChadash]

Show scripture of the rejection, show scripture that he will "come again".



Show the proof of the calendar gap.

It's already been shown that Isaiah 53 is not about the Redeemer but Israel as a whole. So as they say in Missouri, Show Me.

wow, and shown from SCRIPTURE. And by JEWS. :P

[visionary]

Show scripture of the rejection, show scripture that he will "come again".



Show the proof of the calendar gap.

It's already been shown that Isaiah 53 is not about the Redeemer but Israel as a whole. So as they say in Missouri, Show Me.

Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.


Which day?

You're getting close to the point I'm making.

[visionary]

The verse above gives a hint...

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

[LadyGarnetRose]

The verse above gives a hint...

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.


This did not happen with Jesus...

So When?

[ShirChadash]

:confused:Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
vis are you saying this refers to G-d coming in human form? The actions of G-d to save are well-known, and I see this as nothing but recognizing -- "this is the action of our G-d" -- attributing action and behavior on behalf of His people, to G-d Himself, and His care and acting for the protection and deliverance of His own. What leads you to think this will be a physical manifestation of G-d in human form, much less a "return" specifically of Jesus?

Isaiah 25
1 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-1.htm) O LORD, Thou art my God, I will exalt Thee, I will praise Thy name, for Thou hast done wonderful things; even counsels of old, in faithfulness and truth. 2 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-2.htm) For Thou hast made of a city a heap, of a fortified city a ruin; a castle of strangers to be no city, it shall never be built. 3 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-3.htm) Therefore shall the strong people glorify Thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear Thee. 4 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-4.htm) For Thou hast been a stronghold to the poor, a stronghold to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat; for the blast of the terrible ones was as a storm against the wall. 5 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-5.htm) As the heat in a dry place, Thou didst subdue the noise of strangers; as the heat by the shadow of a cloud, the song of the terrible ones was brought low. 6 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-6.htm) And in this mountain will the LORD of hosts make unto all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. 7 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-7.htm) And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering that is cast over all peoples, and the veil that is spread over all nations. 8 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-8.htm) He will swallow up death for ever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the reproach of His people will He take away from off all the earth; for the LORD hath spoken it. 9 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-9.htm) And it shall be said in that day: 'Lo, this is our God, for whom we waited, that He might save us; this is the LORD, for whom we waited, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.' 10 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-10.htm) For in this mountain will the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down in his place, even as straw is trodden down in the dunghill. 11 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-11.htm) And when he shall spread forth his hands in the midst thereof, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim, his pride shall be brought down together with the cunning of his hands. 12 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-12.htm) And the high fortress of thy walls will He bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.

This did not happen with Jesus...

So When?
Well apparently it will happen when he returns. Which theology is still not to be found anywhere in the Tanach.
hm... is this forum glitchy now? I got a moderator-approval notice a few mintues ago... weird.

[ShirChadash]

:confused:Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
vis are you saying this refers to G-d coming in human form? The actions of G-d to save are well-known, and I see this as nothing but recognizing -- "this is the action of our G-d" -- attributing action and behavior on behalf of His people, to G-d Himself, and His care and acting for the protection and deliverance of His own. What leads you to think this will be a physical manifestation of G-d in human form, much less a "return" specifically of Jesus?

Isaiah 25
1 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-1.htm) O LORD, Thou art my God, I will exalt Thee, I will praise Thy name, for Thou hast done wonderful things; even counsels of old, in faithfulness and truth. 2 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-2.htm) For Thou hast made of a city a heap, of a fortified city a ruin; a castle of strangers to be no city, it shall never be built. 3 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-3.htm) Therefore shall the strong people glorify Thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear Thee. 4 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-4.htm) For Thou hast been a stronghold to the poor, a stronghold to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat; for the blast of the terrible ones was as a storm against the wall. 5 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-5.htm) As the heat in a dry place, Thou didst subdue the noise of strangers; as the heat by the shadow of a cloud, the song of the terrible ones was brought low. 6 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-6.htm) And in this mountain will the LORD of hosts make unto all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. 7 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-7.htm) And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering that is cast over all peoples, and the veil that is spread over all nations. 8 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-8.htm) He will swallow up death for ever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the reproach of His people will He take away from off all the earth; for the LORD hath spoken it. 9 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-9.htm) And it shall be said in that day: 'Lo, this is our God, for whom we waited, that He might save us; this is the LORD, for whom we waited, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.' 10 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-10.htm) For in this mountain will the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down in his place, even as straw is trodden down in the dunghill. 11 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-11.htm) And when he shall spread forth his hands in the midst thereof, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim, his pride shall be brought down together with the cunning of his hands. 12 (http://mbible.com/isaiah/25-12.htm) And the high fortress of thy walls will He bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.

[visionary]

Isa 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

[visionary]

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

[visionary]

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

[visionary]

:confused:
vis are you saying this refers to G-d coming in human form? Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

So I was reading this line once again:And a quote came to mind. A wise man once said:Do you know who said this? I said it. It sounds like good advise to me. All I want from you guys is your antimissionary scripture. Now feed me some scripture. Pleeeease.

[ShirChadash]

I said it. It sounds like good advise to me. All I want from you guys is your antimissionary scripture. Now feed me some scripture. Pleeeease. Now, why would you be asking specifically for "anti-missionary" scriptures? And why is it you are still asking for scripture when you have been given scripture (and you have resorted to personal interpretation anyway)?

[ShirChadash]

:idea:Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Do you think the writers of this verse considered that someday G-d in human form would do this?

[ShirChadash]

The Jews believe that:
My understanding is that a maiden will be with child. Also Psalms says a body was created for him (Yahshua). Im not sure but I think the King David thing is by decree of Yahwah.
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

Show me please. Not just verse reference, but the text.

[Steve Petersen]

It's already been shown that Isaiah 53 is not about the Redeemer but Israel as a whole. So as they say in Missouri, Show Me.

No it has not been shown. It has been asserted. I have shown at least one instance from the Midrash that Isaiah 53 was believed to be also about Messiah ben Joseph.

[simchat_torah]

Hey, don't you guys know that you can not keep a troll as a pet without feeding it. Where is that anti-missionary scripture?
I don't get your point. This whole thread was a troll by you. Moreover, I provided plenty of "scriptures" you have as of yet to address.

[visionary]

:idea: Do you think the writers of this verse considered that someday G-d in human form would do this?His image.. yes...


Olam HaBa" - Described as where the "Righteous sit with their crowns on their heads, and derive pleasure from the Radiance of the Divine Presence."

[visionary]

"In the future" there will be a circle of the righteous in the Garden of Eden, and Gd will be among them so clearly that each of them will be able to point: Taanit 31a

[visionary]

No it has not been shown. It has been asserted. I have shown at least one instance from the Midrash that Isaiah 53 was believed to be also about Messiah ben Joseph.The Messiah from David, the Messiah from Joseph, Eliyahu and Shem ["The Righteous Kohen"] as the 4 foundations of the Redemption: Succah 52b Reminds me of the four cups at the Seder.

[ShirChadash]

His image.. yes...


Olam HaBa" - Described as where the "Righteous sit with their crowns on their heads, and derive pleasure from the Radiance of the Divine Presence."
so being in His presence requires that He will manifest Himself as a human?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

Show me please. Not just verse reference, but the text.Show me please. Not just verse reference, but the text.

Gen 49:10. The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
until he comes to whom it belongs
and the obedience of the nations is his.
Psalms 40: 6. Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you have prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
Hebrews 10:5. Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6. with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
Isaiah 11:1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
Matthew 1
The Genealogy of Jesus
1. A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2. Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3. Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4. Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5. Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6. and Jesse the father of King David.



Who is to say that Yahwah the Holy Spirit did not make his body after the linage of David.

[visionary]

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

[ShirChadash]

Gen 49:10. The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
until he comes to whom it belongs
and the obedience of the nations is his.Psalms 40: 6. Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, <