How Can Christians Love the Jewish People?

[Ivy]

Okay, now, I want to get it from the horse's mouth. :)

I of course believe that God meant for a precious friendship between Jews and Gentiles, and I want to see this happen.

Some Jewish people say (and who wouldn't say this?) that they do not want to feel persecuted, hated, etc. That makes sense. And others say "We don't want to be loved to death either!"
So suppose you could go into the laboratory, and clone a "perfect Gentile Christian friend"? :idea: What would this person do and not do? What would they say and not say? If they wanted to hang out and get to know you better, how could they do that?

One of the reasons I believe that the Messianic movement has arisen is that there is a genuine desire in the hearts of some Christians to understand the Jewish roots of their faith and to have some sort of meeting-ground for friendship. Maybe the Messianic movement is this meeting-ground at the moment.

Do you believe this meeting could be done in a better way? And if so, how?

[Tishri1]

Well I can see how Jews would be over whelmed by the attention from those who have a God given love for them, IMO its better to be supportive in many ways and not just try to make them all your best friend...... Let them have room to enter into friendship and also give them their times away as well.....IMO its very important to stay true to your self and not hide that you are a Christian or Messianic from your Jewish friends....When you do hang out with them, dont necessarily preach to them, but do share as you would with any friend or acquaintance.

How many of us have Jewish Friends:wave:

[Kris10leigh]

Gosh, I don't know, because I've never met a Jew that didn't like me. ^_^ I live in a very poorly populated area and all two Jews I've ever known have been good friends to me.

For me, creating a friend from any background simply involves give and take and the ability to dialogue through misunderstandings.

[Tishri1]

AMEN:thumbsup:

[Ivy]

Thank you for your input, ladies :thumbsup:

To be honest, I never met a Jewish person until I was 20 years of age....just the areas of the country I lived in, I guess. Even then, the person I met had recently become a believer in Yeshua. I never met a 'traditional' Jewish person until my mid-30's, when I attended a service at the Conservative shul.

I think it's always a little intimidating to go onto someone else's 'turf,' so to speak and try to get to know them, and you don't know all the customs and so forth. For instance, I think I carried a pocketbook into the synagogue on Shabbat one time, not knowing that that isn't the thing, really......but no one was hard on me about it. In fact, they didn't say anything; the way I found out later was just in a book.

I feel like it was a shame that it wasn't until my mid-30's, and even then, it was because I took initiative. I wish there was more of a meeting-ground, so to speak; I guess the Messianic movement somewhat functions as this.

I'm a pretty reserved person, so it seemed like I fit in well, but sometimes I wish I'd had a little orientation class or something first.......then I wouldn't have been wondering as often if I was acting appropriately.

[Kris10leigh]

That's how I feel right now, Ivy.

My friends were really just that...friends. My girlfriend in high school just happened to be Jewish. We talked about religion sometimes, but how often do high school kids really discuss religion? My next friend was a guy I met in college. We did discuss religion, but he was a guy from a guy's perspective. He took my to services a couple time, but it was in a college town. They were pretty used to visitors and an anything goes kind of attitude.

There's a messianic congregation about 45 minutes from here and I've been curious to go, but I'm afraid. Just like you said, I don't know what not to do, like carrying a purse. Who knew? And I've been told by someone in my town (online message board) that gentiles are made to feel like second class citizens there.

[Tishri1]

gosh I hope not :hug:

asking lots of questions is always good and acceptable, I sure hope meeting MJs would be just like meeting folks in any conservative church setting:groupray:

[Ivy]

There's a messianic congregation about 45 minutes from here and I've been curious to go, but I'm afraid. Just like you said, I don't know what not to do, like carrying a purse. Who knew? And I've been told by someone in my town (online message board) that gentiles are made to feel like second class citizens there.

I think it really depends on the particular congregation, if there's a second-class citizen mentality or not. It's easy to have that "not in the know" feeling when you're in a different environment, & the feeling second class can come just from that alone, not necessarily from the attitudes of the other people.

One Messsianic congregation about an hour from here, they came down to do a joint conference years ago, and all the Jewish members of that congregation seemed to make a point of addressing each other by their Hebrew names. They were lovely names and of course they had a right to use them, but that also created a "have not" dynamic for the Gentile members. This congregation was big into the "one new man" concept on one hand, but on the other hand, they tended to contradict that by creating a have/have not dynamic too. It was really weird.

I don't think there's anything to be afraid of to visit. It'll be a least fifty percent Gentiles from church backgrounds like you anyway, lol. ;) You could just call ahead and ask if there are any customs you should know about, and they'll probably be very hospitable when they see that you aren't there to flout their ways & want to learn.

[Ivy]

BTW, I was hoping to hear from some of the traditional Jews on my OP question. Not that you have to, but it'd be cool if you wanted to answer.

[SisterKatie]

First off: the question is not: "How can the Christians love the Jewish people?" But: "How could they not?"

I am not Jewish.. but I try anyway.
One of my very best friends is an orthodox Jew. I also have some friends among secular Jews who are wonderful people but...unfortubnately secular. But the Jewish friend I have.. I sort of feel like God brought us together. From the moment I looked into her eyes the first time, we were close friends. She would never get offended by my overflowing joy of being a Christian. On the contrary, we have this unique openess where we are totally human and totally honest with each other.. we have been together at a very tough time of both our lives... and the most fascinating thing is that when I talk with her about God she seems to understand and share in aspects of my spirituality and experiences about God which... well.. which I havent found in my Evangelical friends, whether they be Jewish or otherwise. (I am Catholic) .. It has something to do with the holyness and purity of God.. I just felt like family when we talked about it. But one christian friend I had said that it was not right of me to think of this orthodox Jew as a sister...
I have a feeling God placed the love for her in my heart.. it was so awesome from day one.

Anyway.. I am babbling.. sorry .. I have just been so blessed to live in Jerusalem and meet Christians of every kind .. wonderful mystics, zealous zealots, from all parts of the body.. evangelical, messianic, catholic, orthodox, lutheran....
I love the Church. How I long for unity!:crosseo:

[Ivy]

But one christian friend I had said that it was not right of me to think of this orthodox Jew as a sister...
I have a feeling God placed the love for her in my heart.. it was so awesome from day one.

Anyway.. I am babbling.. sorry .. I have just been so blessed to live in Jerusalem and meet Christians of every kind .. wonderful mystics, zealous zealots, from all parts of the body.. evangelical, messianic, catholic, orthodox, lutheran....
I love the Church. How I long for unity!:crosseo:

I always think of the Jewish people as our elder brothers and sisters in faith, so I sure think it is fine to think of your friend as a sister......I think that love pleases God! :)

I'd love to hear about your time in Jerusalem and all the people you met there. My mom is actually going to Israel, including Jerusalem, in the fall, and I know it's going to be an awesome experience for her.

[SisterKatie]

I always think of the Jewish people as our elder brothers and sisters in faith, so I sure think it is fine to think of your friend as a sister......I think that love pleases God! :)

I'd love to hear about your time in Jerusalem and all the people you met there. My mom is actually going to Israel, including Jerusalem, in the fall, and I know it's going to be an awesome experience for her.


Hey Ivy :)
Of course... the Jewish people are our elder brothers and sisters in the faith. Even official catholic Church writings state this beautiful fact. However, my (baptist) friend did not like it when I said I felt like R was a sister in the Lord even though she does not believe in Yeshua. And I understood my friends concern that I dont confuse concepts and feelings.. because the New Testament does say that those who believe in Yeshua, to those were given the right to be called the sons and dauthers of the Most High. I think it was in this light the Baptist girl tried to warn me ...

You mother is indeed blessed. You should go with her ;) .. I love Israel.. always have. And I am going back there shortly for another long stay. I have had so many friends and aquaintances there.. so many experiences, challenges.. and yes.. times where people thought I was an orthodox Jew (not deliberately on my part) and that created ackward and funny situations... I also made a total fool of my self once at the Western Wall... I almost dare not tell all of you for you might think me a total idiot.

Jerusalem is in so many ways the centre of the world and such a lively and international place. And then there is that undefinable feeling of being on an adventure... and being there with Jesus.. because this was the air He breathed.
Oh... and the churches and the pilgrims... they are so interesting to talk to.. ... :groupray:

[Lulav]

That's how I feel right now, Ivy.

My friends were really just that...friends. My girlfriend in high school just happened to be Jewish. We talked about religion sometimes, but how often do high school kids really discuss religion? My next friend was a guy I met in college. We did discuss religion, but he was a guy from a guy's perspective. He took my to services a couple time, but it was in a college town. They were pretty used to visitors and an anything goes kind of attitude.

There's a messianic congregation about 45 minutes from here and I've been curious to go, but I'm afraid. Just like you said, I don't know what not to do, like carrying a purse. Who knew? And I've been told by someone in my town (online message board) that gentiles are made to feel like second class citizens there. And that may just be from their perspective. That congregation you talk about is not prejudice at all. The one who felt that way may have taken it from something someone said, that they didn't like. Jews are called to be the head and that rubs some gentiles the wrong way sometimes, it doesn't make them better, but that is how gentiles see it. I know this from experience, it is all a matter of perspective. As Jews, we didn't have a choice who was our G-d and who we are obliged to follow, gentiles do, when they choose to follow the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that is a great thing, but the key here is to follow, and to realize who the natural branches are and not to try to become one or to think to rule over them. This is the main troubles I see. The gentiles come into Messianic congregations and want to end up ruling them. most times that is what ends up happening, usually because the Rabbi is Jewish and his wife is a gentile. The congregation you are talking about has an oddity, a Rabbi that is Jewish and a wife that is also. So if they are trying to keep the upper hand so to speak , I say good for them, this of course will put some gentile noses out of joint, mainly because of the gentile Christian superiority that is present in each Christan denomination, that the Jews killed Christ and they are the new Israel. They feel that Jews abandoned Yeshua and he belongs to them now. And they understand the NT scriptures better than any Jew. They act like the brother that stayed at home in the story of the prodigal son.

I know this doesn't sound nice and many would deny it, but it happens, and is understandable but not acceptable and shouldn't be.

Just go, and pray that you can see things in spirit and truth and not be colored by anything anyone else has said or experienced.

[Lulav]

Hey Ivy :)
Of course... the Jewish people are our elder brothers and sisters in the faith. Even official catholic Church writings state this beautiful fact. However, my (baptist) friend did not like it when I said I felt like R was a sister in the Lord even though she does not believe in Yeshua. And I understood my friends concern that I dont confuse concepts and feelings.. because the New Testament does say that those who believe in Yeshua, to those were given the right to be called the sons and dauthers of the Most High. I think it was in this light the Baptist girl tried to warn me ...

You mother is indeed blessed. You should go with her ;) .. I love Israel.. always have. And I am going back there shortly for another long stay. I have had so many friends and aquaintances there.. so many experiences, challenges.. and yes.. times where people thought I was an orthodox Jew (not deliberately on my part) and that created ackward and funny situations... I also made a total fool of my self once at the Western Wall... I almost dare not tell all of you for you might think me a total idiot.

Jerusalem is in so many ways the centre of the world and such a lively and international place. And then there is that undefinable feeling of being on an adventure... and being there with Jesus.. because this was the air He breathed.
Oh... and the churches and the pilgrims... they are so interesting to talk to.. ... :groupray: I'd love to hear about it and won't think bad of you. I am still waiting the word to go, but love to hear form others who have been so blessed. :)

[Lulav]

Okay, now, I want to get it from the horse's mouth. :)

I of course believe that God meant for a precious friendship between Jews and Gentiles, and I want to see this happen.

Some Jewish people say (and who wouldn't say this?) that they do not want to feel persecuted, hated, etc. That makes sense. And others say "We don't want to be loved to death either!"
So suppose you could go into the laboratory, and clone a "perfect Gentile Christian friend"? :idea: What would this person do and not do? What would they say and not say? If they wanted to hang out and get to know you better, how could they do that?

One of the reasons I believe that the Messianic movement has arisen is that there is a genuine desire in the hearts of some Christians to understand the Jewish roots of their faith and to have some sort of meeting-ground for friendship. Maybe the Messianic movement is this meeting-ground at the moment.

Do you believe this meeting could be done in a better way? And if so, how? Well since I am the only Jew on this thread so far, I'd like to answer. Or maybe this is supposed to be in the MW forum where Rabbinic Jews hang out?
but while it's here, I'll just give some tips.

First don't ever say 'Jesus Loves You' what that means to an unbelieveing gentile is totally different than what it means to a Jew. The natural response would be ( spoken or unspoken) Well, I hate him!

That really doesn't start you off in a great way. Best to do, just pray first. Just because you have a Jewish friend does not mean that the L-RD plans on using you to show Messiah to them, it could be someone else, you could be used to show them, it's OK to trust a Christian, that not all christians hate all Jews and think they killed Jesus. That is a very big thing and honor to do.

What every Christian can do though is to pray. Ask the L-RD to put upon your heart one or more Jews that you know or don't know, it could be someone you went to school with, or someone you know as a casual acquaintance, a store you frequent, or someone you work with. , but ask him to show you, you don't pick. And they you commit to pray for this person (or persons, if he gives you more) every single day.

This is so important, and I'll tell you why. Every single Jewish believer I know that has come to Messiah, had at least one ( usually many more) Christian dedicated to pray for them. DEDICATED, meaning not just once, not just for a certain time period, but sometimes for years, even decades!

You may not be the one to share the verse that opens the door, or rings the bell or turns on the light, but your prayers are the preparation that is so important when G-d chooses that moment, that it is fruitful.

So please, commit today to pray for at least one Jew, commit that you won't stop praying until they believe, but only whom G-d himself chooses is perfect for you to pray for.


Some other things are being humble, loving all Jews, no picking and choosing, as I've seen others do. When you get the chance and feel lead, when you meet one, just say. Thank You.

when they ask you what you are thanking them for, just tell them,

"My Salvation, Jesus, Yeshua, I know my Salvation comes form the Jews, so Thank You."

And leave it at that, don't push, don't say anything else, unless they push you, and then quickly pray for the right words.

You would be surprised what these two words can do, so much opposite two other words 'Christ killer!'

I know that this simple thing has plowed up hardened ground and made ready for the planting of the seed which did bloom and fruit. So don't be afraid, just be humble and thankful!

PS ( you are still allowed to love them even if they are already believers! ) :)

[Tishri1]

First off: the question is not: "How can the Christians love the Jewish people?" But: "How could they not?"

I am not Jewish.. but I try anyway.
One of my very best friends is an orthodox Jew. I also have some friends among secular Jews who are wonderful people but...unfortubnately secular. But the Jewish friend I have.. I sort of feel like God brought us together. From the moment I looked into her eyes the first time, we were close friends. She would never get offended by my overflowing joy of being a Christian. On the contrary, we have this unique openess where we are totally human and totally honest with each other.. we have been together at a very tough time of both our lives... and the most fascinating thing is that when I talk with her about God she seems to understand and share in aspects of my spirituality and experiences about God which... well.. which I havent found in my Evangelical friends, whether they be Jewish or otherwise. (I am Catholic) .. It has something to do with the holyness and purity of God.. I just felt like family when we talked about it. But one christian friend I had said that it was not right of me to think of this orthodox Jew as a sister...
I have a feeling God placed the love for her in my heart.. it was so awesome from day one.

Anyway.. I am babbling.. sorry .. I have just been so blessed to live in Jerusalem and meet Christians of every kind .. wonderful mystics, zealous zealots, from all parts of the body.. evangelical, messianic, catholic, orthodox, lutheran....
I love the Church. How I long for unity!:crosseo:I admire you Kate and yes you have a healthy relationship that many here are trying to cultivate with our friends too...sometimes its hard as Jesus/Yeshua is a rock of stumbling for them but we are trying to make it turn out just like you have done wonderfully in your life:hug::hug::hug::hug:blessings sis....

[Tishri1]

I almost dare not tell all

please do tell we are all ears and we wont think bad ....really:wave:

[Tishri1]

I almost dare not tell all

please do tell we are all ears and we wont think bad ....really:wave:

[SisterKatie]

please do tell we are all ears and we wont think bad ....really:wave:


Hey Tishri ...
Can you vouch for the others ? :D Okay.. I will tell you but you will think I was just a total idiot... which I was..
Okay.. so I was in Jerusalem for quite a while and one of my favourite places was the Western Wall. Its such a profound experience to be there.. The spirit of prayer is just there (like many other pilgrim-sights and churches that I have visited).
So anyway.. I came there to pray on a Sabbath and was delighted to be there. I sat down anonomously along side the other women with my Bible (in a European language) and while I was reading my heart got captivated by what I read and I felt a few lines spoke particularly to my heart that day. So ..out of habit I took out my little pencil and underlined a few lines. I was lost to my sorroundings but suddenly a firm woman voice made its way into my universe: "This is a Sabbath, you are NOT allowed to do that". All the women were looking at me ..or so it seemed. Oh my...I felt like :doh: I just said: "oh, sorry" put the pencil away, sat there for a few minutes :blush: trying to look natural.. and then I snug out of the crowd. I talked to my self on the way out... and as I reached the stairs I saw a young disciple being scolded by a rabbi... and I thought: you are not alone my friend... Thank you Jesus.

That day I realised... I dont now even the minimum of Jewish customs.. (I knew so many things were not allowed on the Sabbath but I had failed to realise that this of course was one of them) and I wish to teach them about Yeshua ! .. next time I go back to the Holy Land I will be sure to listen and learn and zip the lip. maybe I should even get my hands on Maimonides "Guide for the confused "... ;)

You can laugh now...

[SisterKatie]

Jews are called to be the head and that rubs some gentiles the wrong way sometimes, it doesn't make them better, but that is how gentiles see it. I know this from experience, it is all a matter of perspective. As Jews, we didn't have a choice who was our G-d and who we are obliged to follow, gentiles do, when they choose to follow the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that is a great thing, but the key here is to follow, and to realize who the natural branches are and not to try to become one or to think to rule over them. This is the main troubles I see. The gentiles come into Messianic congregations and want to end up ruling them. most times that is what ends up happening, usually because the Rabbi is Jewish and his wife is a gentile. The congregation you are talking about has an oddity, a Rabbi that is Jewish and a wife that is also. So if they are trying to keep the upper hand so to speak , I say good for them, this of course will put some gentile noses out of joint, mainly because of the gentile Christian superiority that is present in each Christan denomination, that the Jews killed Christ and they are the new Israel. They feel that Jews abandoned Yeshua and he belongs to them now. And they understand the NT scriptures better than any Jew. They act like the brother that stayed at home in the story of the prodigal son.

I know this doesn't sound nice and many would deny it, but it happens, and is understandable but not acceptable and shouldn't be.

Just go, and pray that you can see things in spirit and truth and not be colored by anything anyone else has said or experienced.

Hey brother Lulav :wave: ... interesting post.
There are some things in it I would like you to explain. You say Jews are called to be the head. Can you tell me what you mean by this? From my perspective the Bible said something like the one who wants to be big must become the servant of all... be like children.. go to the lowest seat... let God raise you up.. "In Him there are neither Jew nor Greek... "
And then there is a sentense of yours that made a bit sad and which I hope I misunderstood. The last priestly prayer that Yeshua prayed was : "That they all may be one like the Father and the Son are one.." That is a oneness that transcends what we can fathom. And Yeshua calls us to this unity with all our brothers. Yet you say we should not try to become one with our Jewish brothers? That does not make sense to me. I realise that you talk about the olive tree and that we have been put into that tree like wild branches and that the Jewish people are the first chosen people. But I have also this to say.. I see the talk about hierarchies to be quite wrong here.. the tree is one tree and its only God who choses whom to cut of or take out again. If then a brother of yours is crafted in next to you and he is not a Jew, is he not as much one with you as the messianic Jew to your other side. I should think so.. ? There should be no pride. The tree should not be a cause of division but a sign of unity. Do you not agree? The humility must reign in all branches because if the Jew is chosen first then so is the gentile who believes in Yeshua... if the Jew worked the whole day in the sun then the same salary was still settled between the boss and the last workers who only worked for an hour.
Why, I dont know... but the Bible also says: God has no favourites.
So please brother, try to explain. I dont want to misunderstand you.

As for your words about every Christian denomination where "gentiles" are leaders.. I am sorry to say so this but division was never the intention of the Lord. There are Jews in every bigger Christian church and they are as entitled to having leadership roles as anyone else.
And there may have sadly been anti-semitism among European Christians as a heritage even from ancient days.. but I get tired of hearing about the word "Christ-killer" from todays messianic Jews on this forum when I have never heard this word uttered in real life in any of the Churches I have ever visited. On the contrary I find only exitement and kind interest from Christians where I am, whether they be Protestants, Evangelicals or Catholics.. they stand up for the Jews and Israel, they support Israel, they send their young people and their money to help the Jewish people, and the idea of blaming the Jews more than all other people for the death of the Messiah is foreign to them. So I ask you just this, that you live out the command to love your brother and forgive him. Will you give a new Christian generation a fair chance, or will you call them Jew-killers with a sweeping generelisation like some of the old christians called Jews Christ-killers... because tell me, where is the difference?

Peace and Shalom

[Ivy]

I get tired of hearing about the word "Christ-killer" from todays messianic Jews on this forum when I have never heard this word uttered in real life in any of the Churches I have ever visited. On the contrary I find only exitement and kind interest from Christians where I am, whether they be Protestants, Evangelicals or Catholics.. they stand up for the Jews and Israel, they support Israel, they send their young people and their money to help the Jewish people, and the idea of blaming the Jews more than all other people for the death of the Messiah is foreign to them.


I think there are two sides to this sort of thing. While I have never heard that expression used in any Christian church I have been in either (and I've been around, in my 43 years), and while a large portion of Christians have just the attitude you say, of excitement, kind interest, support (though we can uknowingly be a bit klutzy sometimes, it's just a learning experience)--yet I've occasionally seen some terrible sentiments expressed on different sections of CF here that were grieving and embarrassing. We need to remember how we would feel if those those kinds of words & sentiments were directed towards us.

For myself, I think it is most important, rather than bringing up Jesus the first chance I get, is to demonstrate by my demeanor & caring, what His nature truly is, since I carry it inside me. In fact, I don't bring up Jesus unless they ask me first, which may sound lax perhaps, but I think it's a matter of respecting other people's boundaries & sensitivities and waiting until they are ready. In the meantime, they are getting to know the real Jesus, hopefully, by hanging out with me. :cool::)

Anyway, I liked your Wall story.........that was great :) I made a similar mistake when I went to a shabbat service here.......the congregation was singing L'Cha Dodi in a very lively way, and I had a program in my hand, and I started tapping along on the paper, like clapping......well, I guess you're not supposed to clap on shabbat, it's considered work. But no one actually reprimanded me about it, I just found out later through reading. :)

[Lulav]

I guess only some opinions matter;)

Hey Tishri ...
Can you vouch for the others ? :D Okay.. I will tell youhttp://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47857226&postcount=14

[Ivy]

Now now :) We all get ignored in forum discussions sometimes.

Actually, I thought your point about Jews being the leaders in Messianic congregations made perfect sense. After all, it's a Jewish project so who else should be the leaders?

[Lulav]

Okay.. I will tell you but you will think I was just a total idiot... which I was..
Okay.. so I was in Jerusalem for quite a while and one of my favourite places was the Western Wall. Its such a profound experience to be there.. The spirit of prayer is just there (like many other pilgrim-sights and churches that I have visited).
So anyway.. I came there to pray on a Sabbath and was delighted to be there. I sat down anonomously along side the other women with my Bible (in a European language) and while I was reading my heart got captivated by what I read and I felt a few lines spoke particularly to my heart that day. So ..out of habit I took out my little pencil and underlined a few lines. I was lost to my sorroundings but suddenly a firm woman voice made its way into my universe: "This is a Sabbath, you are NOT allowed to do that". All the women were looking at me ..or so it seemed. Oh my...I felt like :doh: I just said: "oh, sorry" put the pencil away, sat there for a few minutes :blush: trying to look natural.. and then I snug out of the crowd. I talked to my self on the way out... and as I reached the stairs I saw a young disciple being scolded by a rabbi... and I thought: you are not alone my friend... Thank you Jesus.

That day I realised... I dont now even the minimum of Jewish customs.. (I knew so many things were not allowed on the Sabbath but I had failed to realise that this of course was one of them) and I wish to teach them about Yeshua ! .. next time I go back to the Holy Land I will be sure to listen and learn and zip the lip. maybe I should even get my hands on Maimonides "Guide for the confused "... ;)

You can laugh now... Common mistake and nothing to be ashamed of. I am surprised that you didn't get tongue lashed for carrying your bible in with you. But yes, no creative acts. They do occur in Israel, but at the wall it is sacred, and considered the holiest synagogue, albeit and outdoor one. :)
I had a friend who went there and was not within the gated areas for prayer, but in the plaza in front of it and he brought his guitar and was singing the psalms, he got told right quick to stop it. Stop praising G-d, can you believe? I wonder if the Levites whose job it was to sing the psalms in the temple were told not to do so on Shabbat?

We see that Psalm 92 is actually called a Psalm for the Shabbat, now let's look at what the words say about this song for Shabbat:

1 It is a good thing to give thanks unto the L-RD, and to sing praises unto thy name, O most High: 2 To shew forth thy lovingkindness in the morning, and thy faithfulness every night, 3 Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound. 4 For thou, L-RD, hast made me glad through thy work: I will triumph in the works of thy hands. 5 O L-RD, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep. 6 A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.

The first words say :It is God: Tov! Same as HaShem said when he finished creation.

Notice that it says to make this music to G-d upon three different instruments.

A 10 stringed instrument, BION, my friend has a 10 string guitar which he schlepped all the way to Israel just to play there, this very Psalm at the temple wall of our L-RD, yet he was told it was a no-no. I am sure HaShem was pleased at his effort though. :) As I am sure he was pleased with your enamourment of his holy word. :)

[Lulav]

Originally posted by sister katie

Originally Posted by Lulav http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47857167#post47857167) Jews are called to be the head and that rubs some gentiles the wrong way sometimes, it doesn't make them better, but that is how gentiles see it. I know this from experience, it is all a matter of perspective. As Jews, we didn't have a choice who was our G-d and who we are obliged to follow, gentiles do, when they choose to follow the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that is a great thing, but the key here is to follow, and to realize who the natural branches are and not to try to become one or to think to rule over them. This is the main troubles I see. The gentiles come into Messianic congregations and want to end up ruling them. most times that is what ends up happening, usually because the Rabbi is Jewish and his wife is a gentile. The congregation you are talking about has an oddity, a Rabbi that is Jewish and a wife that is also. So if they are trying to keep the upper hand so to speak , I say good for them, this of course will put some gentile noses out of joint, mainly because of the gentile Christian superiority that is present in each Christan denomination, that the Jews killed Christ and they are the new Israel. They feel that Jews abandoned Yeshua and he belongs to them now. And they understand the NT scriptures better than any Jew. They act like the brother that stayed at home in the story of the prodigal son.

I know this doesn't sound nice and many would deny it, but it happens, and is understandable but not acceptable and shouldn't be.

Just go, and pray that you can see things in spirit and truth and not be colored by anything anyone else has said or experienced.
Hey brother Lulav :wave: ... interesting post.
There are some things in it I would like you to explain. You say Jews are called to be the head. Can you tell me what you mean by this? From my perspective the Bible said something like the one who wants to be big must become the servant of all... be like children.. go to the lowest seat... let God raise you up.. "In Him there are neither Jew nor Greek... "
And then there is a sentense of yours that made a bit sad and which I hope I misunderstood. The last priestly prayer that Yeshua prayed was : "That they all may be one like the Father and the Son are one.." That is a oneness that transcends what we can fathom. And Yeshua calls us to this unity with all our brothers. Yet you say we should not try to become one with our Jewish brothers? That does not make sense to me. I realise that you talk about the olive tree and that we have been put into that tree like wild branches and that the Jewish people are the first chosen people. But I have also this to say.. I see the talk about hierarchies to be quite wrong here.. the tree is one tree and its only God who choses whom to cut of or take out again. If then a brother of yours is crafted in next to you and he is not a Jew, is he not as much one with you as the messianic Jew to your other side. I should think so.. ? There should be no pride. The tree should not be a cause of division but a sign of unity. Do you not agree? The humility must reign in all branches because if the Jew is chosen first then so is the gentile who believes in Yeshua... if the Jew worked the whole day in the sun then the same salary was still settled between the boss and the last workers who only worked for an hour.
Why, I dont know... but the Bible also says: God has no favourites.
So please brother, try to explain. I dont want to misunderstand you.

As for your words about every Christian denomination where "gentiles" are leaders.. I am sorry to say so this but division was never the intention of the Lord. There are Jews in every bigger Christian church and they are as entitled to having leadership roles as anyone else.
And there may have sadly been anti-semitism among European Christians as a heritage even from ancient days.. but I get tired of hearing about the word "Christ-killer" from todays messianic Jews on this forum when I have never heard this word uttered in real life in any of the Churches I have ever visited. On the contrary I find only exitement and kind interest from Christians where I am, whether they be Protestants, Evangelicals or Catholics.. they stand up for the Jews and Israel, they support Israel, they send their young people and their money to help the Jewish people, and the idea of blaming the Jews more than all other people for the death of the Messiah is foreign to them. So I ask you just this, that you live out the command to love your brother and forgive him. Will you give a new Christian generation a fair chance, or will you call them Jew-killers with a sweeping generelisation like some of the old christians called Jews Christ-killers... because tell me, where is the difference?

Peace and Shalom

Shalom Little sister! :wave: I hope I can answer your concerns.

Called to be the head- Read Deut 28, here are some excerpts

13 And the L-RD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the L-RD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them: 14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.

I was speaking to Kristi of course about a certain congregation and comparing congregations in general.

Now you misunderstand thinking that head means 'big', What I am saying is not the same thing. G-d told us we were to be the head IF, we obey his commandments, and one of those commandments was that he would send a phrophet to us, from our brethren and we were to listen to him, that is Yeshua, and obey his words that he spoke from HaShem. Those Jews who do this are to receive that blessing from Deut. We are thus called to lead, as Salvation comes from the Jews and it is our book, nu? It's not about superiority, it's about the calling HaShem put on different people. It doesn't make us first into heaven or anything like that. Not at all.

In the following of and lving of and salvation in Yeshua, there is no distinction between Jew and gentile, correct, but in calling there is, just like a woman still remains a woman, and a man a man, but in Messiah we are loved and accepted on an equal level, but that does not change the order of things that G-d ordained.

I hope I am explaining this well enough, I am being distracted by the circus outside my window. , there are at least eight squirrels out here doing all kinds of antics that are cracking me up! And my deer and triple fawns just came for a visit and I had to stop and take pictures and videos of them, too cute.!

I am not saying we shouldn't all be one, remember I was speaking about a congregatoin and leadership within that congregation.

I'll try to get to the rest of your questions later, ok? the squirrels just multiplied to 10 and I think they are calling in their friends from the neighborhood or even out of town to come over and play and eat!

[SisterKatie]

I think there are two sides to this sort of thing. While I have never heard that expression used in any Christian church I have been in either (and I've been around, in my 43 years), and while a large portion of Christians have just the attitude you say, of excitement, kind interest, support (though we can uknowingly be a bit klutzy sometimes, it's just a learning experience)--yet I've occasionally seen some terrible sentiments expressed on different sections of CF here that were grieving and embarrassing. We need to remember how we would feel if those those kinds of words & sentiments were directed towards us.

For myself, I think it is most important, rather than bringing up Jesus the first chance I get, is to demonstrate by my demeanor & caring, what His nature truly is, since I carry it inside me. In fact, I don't bring up Jesus unless they ask me first, which may sound lax perhaps, but I think it's a matter of respecting other people's boundaries & sensitivities and waiting until they are ready. In the meantime, they are getting to know the real Jesus, hopefully, by hanging out with me. :cool::)

Anyway, I liked your Wall story.........that was great :) I made a similar mistake when I went to a shabbat service here.......the congregation was singing L'Cha Dodi in a very lively way, and I had a program in my hand, and I started tapping along on the paper, like clapping......well, I guess you're not supposed to clap on shabbat, it's considered work. But no one actually reprimanded me about it, I just found out later through reading. :)


Dear sister Ivy.
Hehe.. thanks for your understanding and for sharing your own little story ^_^ To be quite honest I am not sure to what degree Messianic Jews of different groups rest on the Shabbat. In my oppinion there has been too much laxity on this area among many brothers and sisters in this generation compared to just 50 years ago. They tithe but forget the rest... At least where I live.
As for the bad sentiments you have seen in CF expressed towards the Jews .. yes thats just plain bad... (just call on me when you see it next time then we will kindly admonish our brother together ;) ) - for we speak about only a few individuals.. I dont say they dont exist.. There are bigots on every side.. so it has always been. As for hearing the foulest talk directed at you for your faith and person.. I have experienced that quite a fair amount of times myself in my five years as a believer. Being a Catholic is not always popular.. we, as Church, are called all kinds of things that are so degrading I wont even mention them to you because I dont want you to know about it. Its so sad. Somethings are better left unsaid.
As for your missionary-method.. I totally live by that my self. I dont go around showing my crucifix or talk alot.. Okay.. I admit.. I talk a lot but never to people who havent invited me to, and its more like sharing. I have a way of getting to talk with people on a deep level. I try to grow and pray and love by helping the people that I work with and just ... well.. I know if I dont pray and read The Word I can try as much as I want but I cant do anything. I try to be Him to my neighbour.. and most people already know I am a Christian anyway.

Anyway.. Thanks :groupray:

[SisterKatie]

Shalom Little sister! :wave: I hope I can answer your concerns.

Called to be the head- Read Deut 28, here are some excerpts



I was speaking to Kristi of course about a certain congregation and comparing congregations in general.

Now you misunderstand thinking that head means 'big', What I am saying is not the same thing. G-d told us we were to be the head IF, we obey his commandments, and one of those commandments was that he would send a phrophet to us, from our brethren and we were to listen to him, that is Yeshua, and obey his words that he spoke from HaShem. Those Jews who do this are to receive that blessing from Deut. We are thus called to lead, as Salvation comes from the Jews and it is our book, nu? It's not about superiority, it's about the calling HaShem put on different people. It doesn't make us first into heaven or anything like that. Not at all.

In the following of and lving of and salvation in Yeshua, there is no distinction between Jew and gentile, correct, but in calling there is, just like a woman still remains a woman, and a man a man, but in Messiah we are loved and accepted on an equal level, but that does not change the order of things that G-d ordained.

I hope I am explaining this well enough, I am being distracted by the circus outside my window. , there are at least eight squirrels out here doing all kinds of antics that are cracking me up! And my deer and triple fawns just came for a visit and I had to stop and take pictures and videos of them, too cute.!

I am not saying we shouldn't all be one, remember I was speaking about a congregatoin and leadership within that congregation.

I'll try to get to the rest of your questions later, ok? the squirrels just multiplied to 10 and I think they are calling in their friends from the neighborhood or even out of town to come over and play and eat!

Hahaa... I just laughed my head off - or what do you say in America? - because of your circus! Thats was sooo funny, although not intended to be ^_^
Okay.. so I missed the point that you were talking about a congregation. Well. I can see why you can easily feel like a minority... but... say there is 50-50 of Jews and "Gentiles" (sorry.. dont like that word particularly and dont think of my self as one) in a congregation.. Then.. are you saying the leadership role would naturally fall to a Jew, because of his blood?

Of course you make total sense when you speak about roles.. Its the same that I have learned so much about when it comes to man and woman... roles.. does not mean unequality but specific vocations that are equally noble, but different. Thats why we dont have women priests and we have a huge profound teaching on the "domestic church"/family.
However... do answer me more later... on the more practical side. I really wanna understand what you mean or how you interpret this well known "head"-promise from HaShem..

Thanks for taking time to explain.
And about the Wailing Wall.. It was my fault. It was what it was. I was a guest at their most holy sight which is also a holy place for me as a Christian, but as it is, I must not cause scandal..
Today I had a talk with my big sister. She is a traditional protestant.. she does not like singing and clapping, dancing and speaking in tongues. I told her about how David danced infront of the Arch of the Covenant and that the Bible tells us to pray "with piously lifted hands".
However... the intention of Judaism must be remembered in the regard of your wonderful guitar playing friend.. they wanted silence not because they did not revere the Lord (does it bother you that I dont use the "-" ?.. I dont want you to feel uncomfortable) but they wanted it out of reverence. Its a time-thing :)

Shalom to you...and bokar tov from me soon. :groupray:

[Ivy]

Dear sister Ivy.
Hehe.. thanks for your understanding and for sharing your own little story ^_^

I have experienced that quite a fair amount of times myself in my five years as a believer. Being a Catholic is not always popular.. we, as Church, are called all kinds of things that are so degrading I wont even mention them to you because I dont want you to know about it. Its so sad. Somethings are better left unsaid.


Yup, I have see that stuff, too, the anti-Catholic stuff......there seems to be a lot of prejudice, hearsay, outright slander going on, doesn't there? :hug: But it actually works to add to the validity of the Catholic faith in my view, if that makes sense. I see that it's part of being made like Jesus to get bad treatment like that, and it actually adds to my respect for them.

[Kris10leigh]

Hey brother Lulav :wave: ... interesting post.

Ok, I'm feeling the need to clarify. ^_^ Lulav is a woman. ;) I've seen her called "brother" in two threads now and have been waiting for her to jump in, but I haven't seen her do so yet. ^_^

Lulav, my breaking point was when you wrote about the deer and squirrels which is so girlie! I just had to clarify. And I am so jealous of you and your deer and squirrels. I do so wish we had wild life where I live. All we get is bunnies...and coyotes.

[SisterKatie]

Yup, I have see that stuff, too, the anti-Catholic stuff......there seems to be a lot of prejudice, hearsay, outright slander going on, doesn't there? :hug: But it actually works to add to the validity of the Catholic faith in my view, if that makes sense. I see that it's part of being made like Jesus to get bad treatment like that, and it actually adds to my respect for them.


You are a humble person. Thank you for blessing me with your kindness.
Yes there is slander... but what pains me is that it is the teachers and missionaries that influence new believers.. no person after reading Scripture comes out slandering his brothers, but we are all part of traditions whether we want to admit it or not. We listen to an interpretation... Thats why pastors and teachers has an extra big responsibility as the Word of God says.
The Church must always apologize, for whereever christians did inhuman acts or passively stood by while others were being persecuted, said Pope John Paul 2. He apologised to the Jews and to lots of other people.. also to women for the abuse of men through history.. He apologised as a simple Christian on behalf of whomever wanted to stand by him.. and I sure do. I will not deny that there are many bad things that have happend in history.. but many overlook all the glorious events and saints that have lived .. they know only the bad.. and often the bad stuff blown out of proportion.
I joined a Pentecostal group of people and one young man said: "Its so lovely to have a Catholic here.. thanks to the Catholic Church for bringing Jesus to our country!" He was humble... I have met so much humility .. and also suspicion. I feel compelled to go to the brothers who are most suspicious. As for the ones who say I am lost to hell if I dont leave my Church, there can be no real sharing between us... I try to defend every brother from the ignorance that is so prevailing in the space between all our different assemblies.
I know we will all become one... because its the work of the Holy Spririt.

[Ivy]

You are a humble person. Thank you for blessing me with your kindness.
Yes there is slander... but what pains me is that it is the teachers and missionaries that influence new believers.. no person after reading Scripture comes out slandering his brothers, but we are all part of traditions whether we want to admit it or not. We listen to an interpretation... Thats why pastors and teachers has an extra big responsibility as the Word of God says.
The Church must always apologize, for whereever christians did inhuman acts or passively stood by while others were being persecuted, said Pope John Paul 2. He apologised to the Jews and to lots of other people.. also to women for the abuse of men through history.. He apologised as a simple Christian on behalf of whomever wanted to stand by him.. and I sure do. I will not deny that there are many bad things that have happend in history.. but many overlook all the glorious events and saints that have lived .. they know only the bad.. and often the bad stuff blown out of proportion.
I joined a Pentecostal group of people and one young man said: "Its so lovely to have a Catholic here.. thanks to the Catholic Church for bringing Jesus to our country!" He was humble... I have met so much humility .. and also suspicion. I feel compelled to go to the brothers who are most suspicious. As for the ones who say I am lost to hell if I dont leave my Church, there can be no real sharing between us... I try to defend every brother from the ignorance that is so prevailing in the space between all our different assemblies.
I know we will all become one... because its the work of the Holy Spririt.

I think more lately I'm feeling the pain of this terrible divorce between believers, to tell you the truth. It's just so obvious to me how badly believers need each other, how much they could help & bless & heal each other, if only we would ditch the chip-on-the-shoulder attitudes. There's that Scripture that talks about filling up what each other is lacking, and another about how all the parts of the body need each other.:cry:

You are right, people tend to magnify the bad things and ignore all the wonderful & glorious things.

[SisterKatie]

I think more lately I'm feeling the pain of this terrible divorce between believers, to tell you the truth. It's just so obvious to me how badly believers need each other, how much they could help & bless & heal each other, if only we would ditch the chip-on-the-shoulder attitudes. There's that Scripture that talks about filling up what each other is lacking, and another about how all the parts of the body need each other.:cry:

You are right, people tend to magnify the bad things and ignore all the wonderful & glorious things.

Amen and amen sister... Thats wisdom. How can we be what we are called to be if various parts of the body are alienated or indifferent to the other parts? The Body is now maimed and only the Holy Spirit can bring the unity that we need. I believe He is already on His way to doing that.. it will be a great sign. We gotta admit, we cant do it ourselves at all. We have to become more humble.. listen to one another and understand each others language.. hear each other's testimonies.. rejoice and pray together. The division is seen by non-believers.. we kid ourselved if we dont think so. We gotta die to ourselves so we hear His voice.

When I became a believer, Yeshua came to me as the Lord of Unity.. I knew it was His work in me that I, from being ignorant and indifferent, my heart was now in pain with the things that break His heart; the division is going on under His Holy Name...

I am happy to meet another sister whose heart burns for unity... May the Lord bless your ministry in this area. :amen:

[kivi]

kivi says: Hi there. You will note that my mood today is 'daring'. I changed it to 'daring' because I decided to respond to your post. I read all of the posts of this thread so I am up-to-date on the discussion. I am impressed with your tone and content and so I believe that I can talk to you openly and frankly, like one mentsch to another. So I am going to try. Please give me an opportunity to finish all of my thoughts before you judge the content. I will be as respectful as I can and if I offend, then I failed in my primary purpose. You have posted in a very difficult spot on CF. Based on structure, rules and custom, Observant Jews are strongly encouraged not come to Messianic Hebrew Christian Forum. If we are not particularly careful to observe the nicities & if we are particularly careful not to disagree with Christian belief and action, then we are allowed to post, otherwise we will get multiple RVs and quickly get kicked out of CF. So we don't come here, it is just too restrictive and scary. I kind of bum around checking out the sites and found you and have spend a while deciding whether it is safe to respond and be honest at the same time. So, I am being 'daring'. But this is not a good place for me and I feel that I can not speak as freely as I would want.


To start with, we are not asking any one to love us. We don't know whether we want to form such a close relation with you. When you ask some one to love you, you are asking for a close, personal and intimate relation. Its like saying to some one that you love them on the 1st date. A little over-whelming and more than a little suspect. And what happens if we don't want your love? Is it just: you get to decide and we have to go along with it? Is it just a one sided relation that you can create with or with out our approval or cooperation? If we say no, will you go away? Or will you stalk us? Forcing yourself on us?


There are three types of love.
Love 1: I love hot dogs. I love how they taste and how they feel and how they make me feel. I love them for what they do for me. And when I am finished with them, they are all gone.
Love 2: I love my children. I love how I can help them and I love what I can do for them and I love how they have become responsible mentsch. I love them for what I can give. And when I am doing that, both they and I are more.
Love 3: I love people even if I disagree with what they are doing. In fact, I love and respect their humanity so much that even if I think they are doing themselves some harm, I mind my own business and detach with love and give them the honor and responsiblity to be who they are and not who I want them to be. And in the end, both they and I are all independent mentsch able to be of service to each other and G-d.


We would really appreciate the 3rd type, tolerance and respect shown by your behavior not to force yourself on us if we don't want your attention, especially concerning any conversion activities. The operative phrase is "Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to yourself." I know that sounds like: "Do unto others as you would want others to do to you." But it is not. The 2nd formation of the quote [the positive Christian formation] has no boundaries, it allows the actor to do anything they want if they can justify it as something that they, themselves, would want without regard to the desires of the other. It is, in fact, self delusional and power & control oriented. We prefer the 1st formation [the negative Hilllel formation]. It is all about boundaries and limiting power& control and integrity and healthy relations that respect autonomy rather than try to dominate.


So if you want to know what we want, rather than to just be focused on what you want, may I suggest: "Do not do to others what you don't want done to yourself" and we can get along very well.

I am more than open to continue our discussion, I am eager.





Okay, now, I want to get it from the horse's mouth. :)

I of course believe that God meant for a precious friendship between Jews and Gentiles, and I want to see this happen.

Some Jewish people say (and who wouldn't say this?) that they do not want to feel persecuted, hated, etc. That makes sense. And others say "We don't want to be loved to death either!"
So suppose you could go into the laboratory, and clone a "perfect Gentile Christian friend"? :idea: What would this person do and not do? What would they say and not say? If they wanted to hang out and get to know you better, how could they do that?

One of the reasons I believe that the Messianic movement has arisen is that there is a genuine desire in the hearts of some Christians to understand the Jewish roots of their faith and to have some sort of meeting-ground for friendship. Maybe the Messianic movement is this meeting-ground at the moment.

Do you believe this meeting could be done in a better way? And if so, how?

[Ivy]

To start with, we are not asking any one to love us. We don't know whether we want to form such a close relation with you. When you ask some one to love you, you are asking for a close, personal and intimate relation. Its like saying to some one that you love them on the 1st date. A little over-whelming and more than a little suspect. And what happens if we don't want your love? Is it just: you get to decide and we have to go along with it? Is it just a one sided relation that you can create with or with out our approval or cooperation? If we say no, will you go away? Or will you stalk us? Forcing yourself on us?



Love 3: I love people even if I disagree with what they are doing. In fact, I love and respect their humanity so much that even if I think they are doing themselves some harm, I mind my own business and detach with love and give them the honor and responsiblity to be who they are and not who I want them to be. And in the end, both they and I are all independent mentsch able to be of service to each other and G-d.


We would really appreciate the 3rd type, tolerance and respect shown by your behavior not to force yourself on us if we don't want your attention, especially concerning any conversion activities. The operative phrase is "Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to yourself." I know that sounds like: "Do unto others as you would want others to do to you." But it is not. The 2nd formation of the quote [the positive Christian formation] has no boundaries, it allows the actor to do anything they want if they can justify it as something that they, themselves, would want without regard to the desires of the other. It is, in fact, self delusional and power & control oriented. We prefer the 1st formation [the negative Hilllel formation]. It is all about boundaries and limiting power& control and integrity and healthy relations that respect autonomy rather than try to dominate.


So if you want to know what we want, rather than to just be focused on what you want, may I suggest: "Do not do to others what you don't want done to yourself" and we can get along very well.

I am more than open to continue our discussion, I am eager.







Believe it or not, I did not see this post until today :blush: Sorry....I haven't been as active in the forum as of late partly because I returned to work fulltime.

I was definitely referring to Love #3. I've heard many justifiable complaints from Jewish people who did not at all like being "loved to death," as it were. It's very annoying to have someone "love" you according to their own presumptive definition of "love," rather than checking with you frist to see how you would define that. That's actually presumption & heedlessness rather than love.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Lulav http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47871629#post47871629)
Shalom Little sister! :wave: I hope I can answer your concerns.

Called to be the head- Read Deut 28, here are some excerpts
Shalom. Yeah, Deut 28 is both joyful but also sobering.
I would say Jesus was quoting from Deut 28:13 in John 8 and saw this a little while back when translating this chapter.
Doesn't it appear JESUS was talking to the Jewish Rulers as He never seemed to exclaim that to the common Jews. Anyway, I found it interesting. Thoughts?

Deut 28:13 And YHWH gives thee to head and not to tail, and thou become surely to above and not thou shall become to below. That you shall listen to instructions of YHWH your 'Elohiym which I instructing you the day to observe and to do.

John 8:23 And He said to them, "Ye out of the below are, I out of the above am. Ye out of this, the world, are. I not am out of the world, this.
24 I said then to ye, that ye shall be dying in the sins of ye, for if-ever no ye should be believing that I am, ye shall be dying in the sins of ye.'............
36 Answered the Jesus, "the kingdom, the Mine, not is out of the world, this. If out of the world, this, the kingdom, the Mine, the servants to Me contended, that no I may be being given up to the Judeans. Now yet the kingdom, the Mine, not is hence."

[kivi]

Believe it or not, I did not see this post until today :blush: Sorry....I haven't been as active in the forum as of late partly because I returned to work fulltime.

I was definitely referring to Love #3. I've heard many justifiable complaints from Jewish people who did not at all like being "loved to death," as it were. It's very annoying to have someone "love" you according to their own presumptive definition of "love," rather than checking with you frist to see how you would define that. That's actually presumption & heedlessness rather than love.

kivi says: I understand. Not to worry. :) As long as Jew and Christian can communicate in the path of #3, then we have a chance. But only where there is true love is equality possible and only in the condition of true equality is love possible between humans. All and any Missionary work is never true love. The Christian Messianic movement can never be a meeting ground of equality. It is, to Jews, an attempt at under-the-wire proselytizing, using Jewish symbols and rites to ends that are not Jewish. It is identity theft on a spiritual scale. Brickner of J4J is a perfect example. The best place for meeting is as Jews and Christians with all the differences out in the open and fully recognized and accepted. There is no need to agree on theology. Its is not imitation or mimicing that makes for communicaton, but tolerance and appreciation of differences. We meet each other each and every day out in the real world. That is more than enough.

[Eben Abram]

Shalom Alecheim

Maybe I can help. (grin)

Saved as a Jesus Freak in 1974 at Calvary Chapel Riverside with Greg Laurie and Sweet Comfort Band, One could say I might know a little about being a Born-Again Christian.

AHH but Greg renamed to Harvest and does Harvest Crusades now and I went on to Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa and worked as a volunteer in the Early Tape Lending Library with maddie and Eileen and participated with Firefighters for Christ, Jewish Gentile Fellowoship on Wednesdays at Big Calvary, Romaine on Thurs AM, College and Carrer, Musicians Fellowship, Well the list goes on because volunteers were always needed so, a guy like me who like being behind the scenes, was bhind the scnes of a LOT of "biggies" that really are just people too.

So what, that was years ago why are you here?

Ahh I also have lived "In Commnity" and attended Orthodox Chabad.

Attended Reform, been around since Moshe started Jews for Jesus and Zola was just getting started. I know the Hebraic Roots from the begining days and many more of the Messianic Congs that were either off or on or learning or trying.

So, again , so what.

Well, I come to boards when simpler answers and helps are needed to understand the underpinnings of how Christendom and Klal Yisrael can overcome hurdles and love and respect each other without some Messy Antics being done by people who are saved by grace even if they don't act liek it sometimes.

I speak of Most Messianics who happen to be Jews, the worse for wear are the people who are still trying to figure out who they are.

May I say, Scirpture is clear, Beloved, it does not yet appear but we know, when he does come, we shll be like Him for we shll see him as He is.

Frankly, I am a Jew albeit a Messianic Jew who just so happens is a Son and as you are Daughters, Children of the Most High.

We are all adopted (Sorry to some Messianics who will gainsay me here but I can eat them if i were hungry) but we are all adopted by G-d.

So, I come to help to tell you relax, enjoy your learning from jews and don't let my people abuse the fact you are you and they are people too.

Ok?

The reason I dive in now is this Head thing someone said is noit true, we are all equla footing so too speak and rather than long in the debate, lets get Chrsit as the head of the Church because you all know that scripture.)

Learning about Jews and Jewish Expression as well as respect for a people you do not know should enhance your love of God, not distract you from your own personal relationship with Jesus.

Enjoy what you got and learn to enjoy what comes along especially in the venue of jewish studies but realize you are not inferior not is a Jew superior God is over all.

We all have a purpose in Gods will and as such are designed for those purposes, so never stop being you before God and Man, even jews.

Now to help, I will say this...... Is a Jerk still a jerk if he is a Jew or a Christian or a heathen or a husband or just plain male?

Of course!!!
A jerk is a jerk no matter who they are!!
We all need help, so jsut recognize always, you may know more than you think and if you think your husband still slays dragons and rides white horses I want to knwo who cleans the toilet and washes the clothes..

In other words, Keep you sense of humor and don't super Spiritualize anyone anytime for anything.

Jesus, as I would say, Yeshua, or as is common, y'shua is still the only perfect one.

In relating to Christians in Israel, I lived there 14 months, i would try to inspire and also cause appreciation for the issues that should not limit a person from getting to know the other person.

So,

wanna learn armenian? lol In Israel it was easy to go see Coptic, now the rub is to learn it takes reading, evaluating, trying to understand and LOTS OF experiences, then God, by way of His Holy SPirit can make wisdom of waht you ahve gone thru

In closing I would like to ask,

May I visit and help?

With a rather full portfolio and yes Virginia there is no Santa Claus but I even as a Jew, lol, do know Jesus and probably more about Judaidm and Christianity then i am willing to admit, so I don't see myself getting tossed or RV'd from this folder

Oh Kivi is very good, I watch everyone to see if they are Pro help or inot themselves and balance is good by having a mutitude of counselors so like a Ole Chuck Missler used to Say, Don't beleive anything I say but Check it all out according to scripture.

Remind me to tell you the time we have a pentacostal black choir sing in a Reform temple or the Catholic Priest who was as shocked to be talking there as most of the Reform were. (grin it is a reat story)

No not messianic, lol a Rather large Reform Cong lol, I just heppened to be, you guessed, helping that year there.

Eben Abram



If you know JohnD, ask him , (grin) he knows me.