Oh, you're just getting too religious...

[LilLamb219]

What do you say when someone you know says, "Oh, you're just getting too religious..." and that person is not Lutheran and doesn't really understand (nor wants to) Lutheran beliefs including how/why we worship and the sacraments?

[RevCowboy]

What do you say when someone you know says, "Oh, you're just getting too religious..." and that person is not Lutheran and doesn't really understand (nor wants to) Lutheran beliefs including how/why we worship and the sacraments?

I really have no idea... I may have mentioned it earlier on the boards, but my supervisor and I were recently fired from doing a funeral because we were too religious. We had just done one about 4 months earlier for the same family and they opted for some evangelical pastor.

Other than going through catechesis with the commenter, I don't know how to explain what it means to be Lutheran, liturgical, and confessional.

I suppose you could always ask them if they are a Christian of another stripe if they are meaning to say that its better to be more secular?

[cerette]

I would say that I am extremely strict when it comes to my beliefs, because I take the Bible seriously. If they're interested to learn more, I would be willing to tell them. I would also ask on what Biblical ground they accuse me of being "too" religious.

[RadMan]

Actually I had an LCMS person tell me that I was getting too religious and had a "holier than thou attitude."

My X wife said that to me when she divorced me...................among other things.

Actually I'm hearing that from members of the LCMS that say the conservatives are too legalistic. Kinda carries the same meaning.

[BabyLutheran]

People around here think I am not religious enough since I "converted" lol. I live in a Southern Baptist stronghold.

[BigNorsk]

Well, what I really want to do is shove a crucifix in their face and scream, "I rebuke you, Satan, in the name of Jesus Christ." But I'm too restrained.

Marv

[Till]

Well, what I really want to do is shove a crucifix in their face and scream, "I rebuke you, Satan, in the name of Jesus Christ." But I'm too restrained.

Marv

If you need some training videos:

http://www.exorcism.ru/video.html

[TCat]

I would ask myself what it is about me that is off putting about my faith? Does my behavior reflect my Savior, am I loving, serving, being obedient to Christ or does it appear to others that I go to church on Sunday, talk a good game but my actions do not reflect Jesus in my day to day living.

I had a guy once act suprised when he heard I was a Christian, said "I would not have guessed you were". That was very humbling and made me take a good look at myself and my behavior at work.

I don't care if anyone knows I am a Lutheran, but I do care that they know I am a Christian, I pray that is evident to everyone I meet. Sometimes I fear I fail more than succeed in this area.

[Edial]

If you need some training videos:

http://www.exorcism.ru/video.html
Great stuff. :)

It's in Russian too, which I understand.

In two of them the priest was casting the demon out in the name of Christ and in no cases he came came out.
A lot of screaming abd screeching, but no deliverance.

The priest certainly knew the problem and places to touch (that big guy's fists), but no deliverance.

Isn't that something - no effect.

Thanks for that. :)

Ed

[Till]

Great stuff. :)

It's in Russian too, which I understand.

In two of them the priest was casting the demon out in the name of Christ and in no cases he came came out.
A lot of screaming abd screeching, but no deliverance.

The priest certainly knew the problem and places to touch (that big guy's fists), but no deliverance.

Isn't that something - no effect.

Thanks for that. :)

Ed

According to the Roman Fr Gabriele Amorth who has done something like 50,000 excorcisms it does sometimes take a while.

http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/an-interview-with-father-gabriele-amorth-the-Church's-leading-exorcist.htm

[Edial]

According to the Roman Fr Gabriele Amorth who has done something like 50,000 excorcisms it does sometimes take a while.

http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/an-interview-with-father-gabriele-amorth-the-Church's-leading-exorcist.htm
Good read.

The Exorcist made this comment concerning the Pope.

What does the Pope make of all this? "The Holy Father knows that the Devil is still alive and active in the world. He has performed exorcism. In 1982, he performed a solemn exorcism on a girl from Spoletto. She screamed and rolled on the floor. Those who saw it were very frightened. The Pope brought her temporary freedom.
"The other day, on September 6, at his weekly audience at St Peter's, a young woman from a village near Monza started to shriek as the Pope was about to bless her. She shouted obscenities at him in a strange voice. The Pope blessed her and brought her relief, but the Devil is still in her. She is exorcised each week in Milan and she is now coming to me once a month. It may take a long time to help her, but we must try. The work of the exorcists is to relieve suffering, to free souls from torment, to bring us closer to God."

It is very disturbing to me that these guys cannot cast out demons. Or, as they say, it takes a very long time.

They identify them, but cannot cast them out.

Something is fundamentally wrong with this.

The Bible gives an understanding that casing out a demon should take just a word or a touch.
Or, in cases of strong demons - a prayer.

The hardest part (in my opinion) is to identify a demon.

But once it is identified there should not be a problem casting one out.

I do not understand.

Thanks,
Ed

[LilLamb219]

I have these same concerns, Ed!


Good read.

The Exorcist made this comment concerning the Pope.

What does the Pope make of all this? "The Holy Father knows that the Devil is still alive and active in the world. He has performed exorcism. In 1982, he performed a solemn exorcism on a girl from Spoletto. She screamed and rolled on the floor. Those who saw it were very frightened. The Pope brought her temporary freedom.
"The other day, on September 6, at his weekly audience at St Peter's, a young woman from a village near Monza started to shriek as the Pope was about to bless her. She shouted obscenities at him in a strange voice. The Pope blessed her and brought her relief, but the Devil is still in her. She is exorcised each week in Milan and she is now coming to me once a month. It may take a long time to help her, but we must try. The work of the exorcists is to relieve suffering, to free souls from torment, to bring us closer to God."

It is very disturbing to me that these guys cannot cast out demons. Or, as they say, it takes a very long time.

They identify them, but cannot cast them out.

Something is fundamentally wrong with this.

The Bible gives an understanding that casing out a demon should take just a word or a touch.
Or, in cases of strong demons - a prayer.

The hardest part (in my opinion) is to identify a demon.

But once it is identified there should not be a problem casting one out.

I do not understand.

Thanks,
Ed

[Till]

The hardest part (in my opinion) is to identify a demon.

But once it is identified there should not be a problem casting one out.



Are you talking from experience?

[BabyLutheran]

At least they admit that demons exist. Most Christians say they don't

[DaRev]

Those little buggers can be a bit stubborn. The St. Louis exorcism in the 40's (from which the movie "The Exorcist" was based) took several attempts to free the boy of the demon. The first attempt occurred at Concordia Sem.

[Edial]

Are you talking from experience?
I have never performed exorcism. I am not certain I believe in the process of it.
I do believe in casting out demons, yet not via exorcism as we understand it.

Do I see people change just through regular conversation, friendship and Christian association?
Yes. Definitely yes.

Also through baptism.
filosopher mentioned once how a very unruly infant drastically changed after baptism. Stopped interrupting services by crying and so forth.

My understanding of demons is that they are tricky by nature ... and, regardless of what some say, they love attention.

They would love to be put on YouTube.

The fact that exorcism does not cast them out right there and then as confirmed in that article by the experts in that field, I would suggest that in these cases demons play games in order to get attention.

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

I have these same concerns, Ed!
Yes, I know what you are saying.

[Lupinus]

Course it begs the question can a baptized Christian be possessed in the first place?

[DaRev]

Course it begs the question can a baptized Christian be possessed in the first place?

I would say it's by their own doing. When they push God out, the void could quite possibly be possessed by undesirable elements.

[TCat]

I have heard it said that Christians can be opressed by demons but not possessed.

[RadMan]

Those little buggers can be a bit stubborn. The St. Louis exorcism in the 40's (from which the movie "The Exorcist" was based) took several attempts to free the boy of the demon. The first attempt occurred at Concordia Sem.hmmm----I heard the Lutheran pastor failed finally and it was handed over to the RC's and they accomplished it at the old Alexian Brothers Hospital on Jefferson Ave.

Let me go Googleing....yea....found it......just type in "Alexian Brothers Exorcist" and you'll find all kinds of links to it.

[LilLamb219]

http://sparse.blogspot.com/2007/09/exorcism-in-st-louis-urban-legend.html

This is some interesting reading on it.

[Till]

http://sparse.blogspot.com/2007/09/exorcism-in-st-louis-urban-legend.html

This is some interesting reading on it.

In the article it says:


"The Rite for exorcism used by the Lutherans in St. Louis, according to the sources I have read, was a Lutheran Rite from the 16th/17th century. It was in Latin."


So the Lutheran church used to have rites for exorcism just as the Catholic church has. What became of those? Is there still such a rite? And the according list or criteria just as the Catholics have?

[DaRev]

hmmm----I heard the Lutheran pastor failed finally and it was handed over to the RC's and they accomplished it at the old Alexian Brothers Hospital on Jefferson Ave.

Let me go Googleing....yea....found it......just type in "Alexian Brothers Exorcist" and you'll find all kinds of links to it.

The boy was a Lutheran from near Washington, DC. (Many sites will say he was from Cottage City, MD but I don't think that's true. I forget what town they were all from.) His pastor tried to deal with it but was unable. The family moved to St. Louis and the seminary got involved. Apparently President Sieck was involved in the attempted exorcism in the small chapel that is located beneath the Luther Tower (the tower had not yet been constructed, but the chapel room was). The priests from St. Louis University (I believe) became involved and it took several attempts to free the boy. These attempts were done at the Alexian Bros. Hospital in St. Louis.

[BigNorsk]

In the article it says:


"The Rite for exorcism used by the Lutherans in St. Louis, according to the sources I have read, was a Lutheran Rite from the 16th/17th century. It was in Latin."


So the Lutheran church used to have rites for exorcism just as the Catholic church has. What became of those? Is there still such a rite? And the according list or criteria just as the Catholics have?

They are still around if you want to dig in a library. You maybe didn't know exorcism was a part of the baptism ceremony at one time. The exorcism along with the oil and salt has been reduced in importance.

Marv

[RadMan]

I remember reading about the exorcism last year and when they renovated the old Alexian Brothers Hosp they ran across the sealed room where it had happened. Sealed inside also was the documentation of the event which was written by one of the priest........I think. Don't know why they had to seal the room off or why they sealed the documented event in there also.

[LutheranMafia]

I would say it's by their own doing. When they push God out, the void could quite possibly be possessed by undesirable elements.A boy so young made such a choice? Someone older, more bitter and jaded I could see, but a child? What about people who become possessed as a result of childhood abuse--was it their choice too? I don’t see how you can reconcile such a belief without also believing in karma and reincarnation. That is the only way that I can see in which free will and choice can be introduced into any of these scenarios.

[DaRev]

A boy so young made such a choice? Someone older, more bitter and jaded I could see, but a child? What about people who become possessed as a result of childhood abuse--was it their choice too? I don’t see how you can reconcile such a belief without also believing in karma and reincarnation. That is the only way that I can see in which free will and choice can be introduced into any of these scenarios.

You need to understand that we are all conceived and born separated from God. Sinfulness is our natural state. Resisting the work of the Spirit is not necessarily a difficult thing.

And what does "karma and reincarnation" have to do with this? You come to some really bizzare conclusions.

[LutheranMafia]

I have never performed exorcism. I am not certain I believe in the process of it. I do believe in casting out demons, yet not via exorcism as we understand it.
Jesus, the disciples and the apostles for a few generations after Jesus were able to cast out demons simply by expressing their intent to do so with a phrase. Clearly something profound has been hopeless lost from the early days of Christianity.

Do I see people change just through regular conversation, friendship and Christian association?
Yes. Definitely yes.

Also through baptism.
filosopher mentioned once how a very unruly infant drastically changed after baptism. Stopped interrupting services by crying and so forth.
While I’m sure these things have an effect, as a means of dealing with the worst cases of possession I would have even less confidence in them than in exorcism.

My understanding of demons is that they are tricky by nature ... and, regardless of what some say, they love attention.

They would love to be put on YouTube.

The fact that exorcism does not cast them out right there and then as confirmed in that article by the experts in that field, I would suggest that in these cases demons play games in order to get attention.
That is true, but still it is better to do something than to do nothing.

[LutheranMafia]

You need to understand that we are all conceived and born separated from God. Sinfulness is our natural state. Resisting the work of the Spirit is not necessarily a difficult thing.
What happened to the choice you mentioned earlier? I don't believe that it is possible for a child to become possessed in the absence of any abuse or neglect. Abuse and neglect are not a product of a child’s choices.And what does "karma and reincarnation" have to do with this? You come to some really bizzare conclusions.Surely you understand the concept of “age of accountability”? You assert that possessed children must have made a choice. If so, it must have been in another lifetime. I see no other possible justification for such an argument as yours here.

If my replies are bizarre it is only because I am responding to incomplete ideas that have not been fully thought out and so contain significant contradiction.

[DaRev]

What happened to the choice you mentioned earlier? I don't believe that it is possible for a child to become possessed in the absence of any abuse or neglect. Abuse and neglect are not a product of a child’s choices.

And on what do you base this opinion?

Surely you understand the concept of “age of accountability”? You assert that possessed children must have made a choice. If so, it must have been in another lifetime. I see no other possible justification for such an argument as yours here.I understand that "age of accountability" is a Calvinist concept that Lutherans reject as being contrary to Scripture. We are bound to the sinful nature that we are conceived and born in. Apart from God's grace, that is the only "choice" anyone can make, regardless of age.

If my replies are bizarre it is only because I am responding to incomplete ideas that have not been fully thought out and so contain significant contradiction.I have asked you before to show me where I have contradicted myself, but you have yet to do so.

[LutheranMafia]

And on what do you base this opinion?My personal experience is that people who use hard drugs or were harshly abused as children are some of the worst behaved people around. Possession is a matter of degree, when people act in a violent and self-destructive way that is a measure of possession. Trauma not only creates negative psychological effects, if intense enough it has spiritual effects too, putting rips and tares in the spirit that make openings which allow unwelcome visitors to get in.

I understand that "age of accountability" is a Calvinist concept that Lutherans reject as being contrary to Scripture. We are bound to the sinful nature that we are conceived and born in. Apart from God's grace, that is the only "choice" anyone can make, regardless of age.
So small children who are taken from their abusive parents but still suffer a lifetime of crazy self-destructive behavior actually chose this path as children?

I have asked you before to show me where I have contradicted myself, but you have yet to do so.I dropped the subject because you were so evasive and Seajoy was getting upset. As I said, it is an overt contradiction that non-action is an action (lacking spiritual discipline does not require action or motivation), but action is a non-action (deepening faith requires vigorous spiritual discipline made reflexive through constant effort). Your statements in this regards could not possibly be more contradictory.

Over and above the contradictions, your definition of faith appears to rest on a very static notion of faith. Living things grow, they are not static. In order for faith to be living and not dead, it must be expanding, deepening and growing. Your notion of a faith incapable of action or activity seems to describe a static faith that does not grow. Like all growth, growth comes with growing pains an effort. There is no place for this in faith as you seem to be describing it.

[DaRev]

Over and above the contradictions, your definition of faith appears to rest on a very static notion of faith. Living things grow, they are not static. In order for faith to be living and not dead, it must be expanding, deepening and growing. Your notion of a faith incapable of action or activity seems to describe a static faith that does not grow. Like all growth, growth comes with growing pains an effort. There is no place for this in faith as you seem to be describing it.

So, you don't believe the Scriptures when they say that faith is a gift from God? That grace is not dependent on our works? No wonder you don't get what I've been saying all along.

[synger]

They are still around if you want to dig in a library. You maybe didn't know exorcism was a part of the baptism ceremony at one time. The exorcism along with the oil and salt has been reduced in importance.

Marv

That doesn't surprise me, with the baptismal vow/questions about renouncing the devil and all his works and all his ways.

[LutheranMafia]

So, you don't believe the Scriptures when they say that faith is a gift from God? That grace is not dependent on our works?How is striving for deepening faith good works? You are a hammer who sees everything as a nail. Striving for a deeper faith is something you do for yourself, not for others. Helping yourself is not a matter of good works.

As to it being from God, you stated yourself that all our efforts to sustain and deepen faith come from the Holy Spirit, and I agreed with you. Never the less it is still an effort. It is not good works, not all efforts lead to good works, most especially efforts made for one's self.

No wonder you don't get what I've been saying all along.I understand your simple and uncomplicated reasoning very well. How can one possibly misconstrue such a profoundly oversimplified position? My opinions on the other hand are not so simple, so the odds are much more likely that you aren't fully understanding me.

[synger]

I understand that "age of accountability" is a Calvinist concept that Lutherans reject as being contrary to Scripture. We are bound to the sinful nature that we are conceived and born in. Apart from God's grace, that is the only "choice" anyone can make, regardless of age.



To clarify: while Reformed Baptists might believe in an "age of accountability", far and away the majority of Calvinists (Reformed, Presbyterian, etc.) most emphatically do not. The whole fulcrum on which Calvinist soteriology hinges is the sovereignty of God. This comes out in the two "points" of Calvinism that do not disagree with Lutheran doctrine. (Actually, it comes out in the other three points, too, but they are contrary to Lutheran doctrine)

Total Depravity: We are all born sinners, and enslaved to the service of sin
Unconditional Election: There is nothing we can do to merit or "earn" or DO to gain God's grace.

Thus, Calvinism teaches that baptism should rightly be done not only to a professing believer, but also to their infant children, because it is God's work, not man's. It is a sacrament that is a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of the ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, etc. (from the Westminster Confession of Faith (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/))

However, the Arminian belief system, as I understand it, may be much more likely to include an "age of accountability" because it teaches that you have to believe to be saved... and that you needs must "make a decision" of sorts for that to happen. They teach that God has given us free will both to choose or to reject Him. This is contrary to the teachings of both Calvinists (we can neither choose nor reject God) and Lutherans (we can not choose but we can reject God).

[Till]

A boy so young made such a choice? Someone older, more bitter and jaded I could see, but a child? What about people who become possessed as a result of childhood abuse--was it their choice too? I don’t see how you can reconcile such a belief without also believing in karma and reincarnation. That is the only way that I can see in which free will and choice can be introduced into any of these scenarios.

Actually, in the sources RadMan linked to, it says that the boy played with an Ouija board and that his mother also introduced him to occult practices. If small children put their hands on a hot stove they get burned. Irrespetive of whether they are "inocent" or "small". It just shows what huge responsibility parents have to protect their children. Not just from physical harm but also spiritual one.

[Qoheleth]

DaRev (or anyone), how is the present Baptismal rite different from Luther's Order of Baptism below?


The Order of Baptism

The Esufflation:
The officiant shall blow three times under the child's eyes and shall say:
Depart thou unclean spirit and give room to the Holy Spirit.

The Sign of the Cross:
Then he shall sign him with a cross on his forehead and breast and shall say:
Receive the sign of the holy cross on both thy forehead and thy breast.

The Prayers:
Let us pray.
O Almighty eternal God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, look upon this N., thy servant whom thou hast called to instruction in the faith, drive away from him all the blindness of his heart, break all the snares of the devil with which he is bound, open to him, Lord, the door of thy grace: So that marked with the sign of thy wisdom he may be free of the stench of all evil lusts and serve thee joyfully according to the sweet savor of thy commandments in thy church and grow daily and be made meet to come to the grace of thy baptism to receive the balm of life; through Christ our Lord. Amen.


Let us pray again.
O God, immortal Comfort of all who ask, Savior of all who cry to thee, and Peace of all who pray to thee, Life of the believers, Resurrection of the dead, I cry to thee for this N., thy servant, who prays for the gift of thy baptism and desires thine eternal grace through spiritual regeneration:
Receive him, Lord, and as thou hast said, "Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you," so give now the reward to him that asketh and open the door to him that knocketh: so that he may obtain the eternal blessing of his heavenly bath and receive the promised kingdom of thy grace; through Christ our Lord. Amen.

The Giving of Salt:
He shall now take the child, put salt into his mouth and say:
N., receive the salt of wisdom. May it aid thee to eternal life.
Amen. Peace be with thee.


The Flood Prayer:
Almighty eternal God, who according to thy righteous judgment didst condemn the unbelieving world through the flood and in thy great mercy didst preserve believing Noah and his family, and who didst drown hardhearted Pharaoh with all his host in the Red Sea and didst lead thy people Israel through the same on dry ground, thereby prefiguring this bath of thy baptism, and who through the baptism of thy dear Child, our Lord Jesus Christ, hast consecrated and set apart the Jordan and all water as a salutary flood and rich and full washing away of sins: We pray through the same thy groundless mercy that thou wilt graciously behold this N. and bless him with true faith in the spirit so that by means of this saving flood all that has been born in him from Adam and which he himself has added thereto may be drowned in him and engulfed, and that he may be sundered from the number of the unbelieving, preserved dry and secure in the holy ark or Christendom, serve thy name at all times fervent in spirit and joyful in hope, so that with all believers he may be made worthy to attain eternal life according to thy promise; through Jesus Chris our lord. Amen.


The Exorcisms:
Therefore, thou miserable devil, acknowledge thy judgment and give glory to the true and living God, give glory to his Son Jesus Christ and to the Holy Ghost, and depart from this N., his servant; for God and our Lord Jesus Christ has of his goodness called him to his holy grace and blessing, and to the fountain of baptisms so that thou mayest never dare to disturb this sign of the holy cross + which we make on his forehead; through him who cometh again to judge, etc.
So hearken now, thou miserable devil, adjured by the name of the eternal God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and depart trembling and groaning, conquered together with thy hatred, so that thou shalt have nothing to do with the servant of God who now seeks that which is heavenly and renounces thee and thy world, and shall live in blessed immortality. Give glory therefore now to the Holy Ghost who cometh and descendeth from the loftiest castle of heaven in order to destroy thy deceit and treachery, and having cleansed the heart with the divine fountain, to make it ready, a holy temple and dwelling of God, so that this servant of God, freed from all guilt of former sin, may always give thanks to the eternal God and praise his name forever and ever. Amen.



The Ephphatha:
Then he shall take spittle with his finger, touch the right ear therewith and say:
Ephphatha, that is, Be thou opened (Mark 7:34).
Then the nose and the left ear (and say):
But thou, devil, flee, for God's judgment cometh speedily.
Then the child shall be led into the church, and the priest shall say:
The Lord preserve thy coming in and thy going out now and for evermore.
Then the priest shall have the child renounce the devil through the sponsors and say:
N., dost thou renounce the devil?
Response: Yes.
And all his works?
Response: Yes.
And all his ways?
Response: Yes.
The Creed:
Then he asks:
Dost thou believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth?
Response: Yes.
Dost thou believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son our Lord, who was born and suffered?

Response: Yes.
Dost thou believe in the Holy Ghost, one holy Christian church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and after death an eternal life?
Response: Yes.



The Christening:
Then he shall anoint the child on the breast and between the shoulders with holy oil, and say:
And I anoint thee with the oil of salvation in Jesus Christ our Lord.
And he shall ask:
Wilt thou be baptized?
Response: Yes.

The Baptism:
Then he shall take the child and dip him in the font and say:
And I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
The the sponsors shall hold the little child in the font and the priest shall make the sign a cross with oil on the crown of his head and say:
The almighty God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath regenerated thee through water and the Holy Ghost and hath forgiven thee all thy sin, anoint thee with the salutary oil to eternal life. Amen.
Peace be with thee.
Response: And with thy spirit.
And while the sponsors continue to hold the child in the font, the priest shall put on him the christening hood and say:
Receive the white, holy, and spotless robe which thou shalt bring before the judgment seat of Christ so as to receive eternal life. Peace be with thee.
Then he shall be lifted from the font and the priest shall put a candle in his hand:
Receive this burning torch and preserve thy baptism blameless, so that when the Lord cometh to the wedding thou mayest go to meet him to enter with the saints into the heavenly mansion and receive eternal life. Amen.


Q

[DaRev]

How is striving for deepening faith good works? You are a hammer who sees everything as a nail. Striving for a deeper faith is something you do for yourself, not for others. Helping yourself is not a matter of good works.

Striving for deeper faith is not a good thing? Since when?

As to it being from God, you stated yourself that all our efforts to sustain and deepen faith come from the Holy Spirit, and I agreed with you. Never the less it is still an effort. It is not good works, not all efforts lead to good works, most especially efforts made for one's self.

But the effort is not borne of ourselves, it is borne of the Spirit. And striving for deepened faith is indeed a good work, even if done for ourselves. How can it not be deemed "good"?

I understand your simple and uncomplicated reasoning very well. How can one possibly misconstrue such a profoundly oversimplified position? My opinions on the other hand are not so simple, so the odds are much more likely that you aren't fully understanding me.

But why do you insist on taking something that is simple and making it so complicated that no one understands it? My positions are based on clear understanding of Scripture. I have no idea where yours come from.

[seajoy]

I dropped the subject because you were so evasive and Seajoy was getting upset.

Hey, don't let that stop you from digging yourself further into a hole. :)

[WildStrawberry]

I find it absolutely fascinating the turn this thread has taken.

I was going to come in and say that I hate it when people say "Oh I'm not religious but I'm spiritual". I've taken to asking them "what does that mean???"

But the direction went in a totally opposite, yet fascinating, way. I've oft been asked by my students about demons and ghosts and the like. I know that there are demons out there that are continually attacking and trying to attack. I've seen them. (go ahead, call me crazy. But I'll tell my story if you wanna hear it.) I've seen them driven out. I've driven them out.

But it's amazing...the things we'll talk about! I LOVE it!

Kae

[Edial]

Jesus, the disciples and the apostles for a few generations after Jesus were able to cast out demons simply by expressing their intent to do so with a phrase. Clearly something profound has been hopeless lost from the early days of Christianity.
It is not that something was lost.

It is that the disciples believed Jesus that all it takes is a simple statement to a demon to depart in the name of Jesus of Nazareth and it will be done for them.

Within 2000 years the demons appear to have tinkered with peoples' simple faith by teaching people wrong methods of casting out demons.
They primarily did this via wrong teachings that we hear all around us. These polluted our minds and our minds fight our simple faith that we have.
Such teachings come from all denominations.

Penthecostals are making it "too spiritual". (Once one makes it "too spiritual" it simply does not work, because we are not "that" spiritual). :)

Traditionalists rely on exorcism and they readily admit that it works very rarely if at all and it always takes a long time.

Baptists just do not cast nothing out.

Others command demons to leave into the "Abyss". If one would be a demon one would object - "Why are you telling me where to go? Even Christ did not send me into the Abyss, but listened to our pleas and sent us into the 2000 pigs. You don't know what you are talking about".

Once this simple casting out is obfuscated by so many wrong teachings, our generation loses the simple faith to plainly tell a demon to leave.

It is highly effective, yet we lost faith to do so.

Our polluted mind interferes with out simple faith. Our mind fights it.

Although I never done exorcism I was successful in driving demons out immediately.
Although it was done in a simplified way.

Here how I was doing it.
And I asked a few other friends of mine to do the initial step and they said it was incredibly successful.

I no longer rely on my faith for this as we understand it, since my faith is being faught against by my polluted mind.
Since my faith is already polluted by the wrong teachings that inwell my mind, I found an interesting way to utilize my faith alone while ignoring my mind.

I am talking here from my life experience

1. Dreams ...
While dreaming, sleeping we could start practicing restoring our simple faith.

When we dream, our mind is kind of asleep and we do not control it.
We all do weird things in our dreams without even "thinking". :)

When we dream, many often see some weird things.

IF one in one's dream would state to these weird beings something to the effect of "Leave in the name of Jesus Christ" - these beings will always either be destroyed, go away, change their deceiving appearance to their true appearance and disappear.
One of my friends who tried that told me it was fascinating to see how one of these beings head exploded and so forth.
The people that even mentioned the name "Jesus Christ" said it always worked.
So, it worked not only for me. I tested it through my friends and they all said it always worked.

Yet there is a problem. The problem is that we do not remember to pray while dreaming. :)
Which is OK. God will remind us here and there, but not always.
(The purpose is not to drive out demons in dreams, the purpose is to restore our simple faith, so we could do it in real life).
Sometimes we remember to mention the name of Jesus Christ in our dreams yet are having a difficult time actually saying it.
Say it. You'll see the results immeidately.

Once we see it works, and it does work, we'll get more confidence in a simple faith.

2. The next practice step is to start telling these weird things to leave when we are just falling asleep and sometimes seeing faces in that semi dreaming state.

To these guys I am saying this while trying to remove all of their possible objections.
The final phrase was developed in my head in about 15 years through trial and error.
The reason I needed to develop such a phrase was that the demons fight against my mind and use it to fight my faith.
And since my mind is not fully "asleep" while I am semi-dreaming, but is more awake while I am about to fall asleep, demons could still use it to fight my faith.

Here is the progress of developing that phrase in the semi-dreaming state.

1). "Leave in the name of Jesus Christ". It worked well, but not for all these beings.

2). "Leave in the name of Jesus Christ into the Abyss". Did not work that well, since Christ did not send them into the Abyss while they begged, but into the pigs. I quickly realized it was wrong.

3). "Leave in the name of Jesus Christ, where Christ commands you to go". Immediate improvement. Yet some did not yet leave. And many came back in the next few nights.

4). "Leave in the name of Jesus Christ, where Christ commands you to go and never come back".
Immediate improvement. Yet others started taking the ranks of the ones that did not return.
No problem. I kept on sending these hordes away to where Christ commans them to go. So they eventually stopped sending new ones.
However, although all were leaving, not all were leaving immediately.

5). "Leave in the name of Jesus Christ, where Christ commands you to go. And leave now". Incredible improvement. All were leaving immediately, yet some hesitated.

6). And when I added the word "Bye" - even a greater improvement.

What I am saying is this.

Since my mind was polluted by wrong teachings, it often overrides my simple faith.

So, in order to reconstruct that simple faith I would need to separate my mind from it and practice walking by faith "without thinking".

That is possible while dreaming.
And it is incredibly easy to cast out a demon in a dream. A name of Jesus Christ is sufficient. And since I plainly see them I see the result and my simple faith strenghtens.

When I am about to fall asleep, my mind is working more actively and is resisting my faith, so a more precise statement is required in order to convince not the demons, but my mind. :)

And once my simple faith strenghtens it convinces my mind when I wake up and remember what happened. And since my mind is influenced by what it sees and hears, when it remembers what happened in my dreams, it becomes gradually obedient to my simple faith.

The last step, of course, is to practice it on other people.
And this is very difficult.
Because now, the demons are not visible. :) So one would need to identify (him/it) first and recognize where he is in the body of a person.

But prior to it, a person himself would need to want to be free from that demon. He might say "Yes. I want to be free, yet in his own mind likes the pleasure that he and the demon share through drugs, sex, porn, booze, etc."
So, the one who wants to be free ahould be really sick and tired of that demon(s), become really scared of them, become really scared of the pleasures of the booze, sex due to unpleasant consequences or simply be tired of the booze, sex, etc.

There is much more I could say, ... but it is work in progress. :)

Now, concerning what I said that there is a definite improvement in disturbed people when they have good relationship with other believers, eat together, fellowship together, handshakes even a hug, I meant that we (believers) have a natural tendency to cast out demons, since we have Holy Spirit.

Demons hate believers. So, they do not want to be in their company.
So, a company of believers naturally drives out demons.

I mentioned elsewhere that Biblically speaking, it is impossible for a believer to have a demon inside, yet it is possible to have one in own head.

Oh well ... and I would remind the readers, stoning is outlawed in civilized societies. :)

Thanks. :)
Ed

[LilLamb219]

The problem is that we do not remember to pray while dreaming.

Some of us do :)

Ed, you mentioned seeing things as you fall asleep. That sounds very much like hypnagogia where the brain is in REM mode but the person is very much awake. I have suffered from this since I was a child. When someone experiences the same type of thing upon awakening, it is called hynopompic brain activity. A lot of "ghosts" and aliens can be attributed to this brain disorder.

[Till]

It is not that something was lost.

It is that the disciples believed Jesus that all it takes is a simple statement to a demon to depart in the name of Jesus of Nazareth and it will be done for them.

Within 2000 years the demons appear to have tinkered with peoples' simple faith by teaching people wrong methods of casting out demons.
They primarily did this via wrong teachings that we hear all around us. These polluted our minds and our minds fight our simple faith that we have.
Such teachings come from all denominations.



Even the disciples were not always successfull at first and Jesus told them that some demons are only driven out py praying and fasting.

We should take the Gospel reports as a confirmation that demons are defeated and ultimately have to leave. But that does not mean that they always leave immediately. It just is not like that. Denying this is not helpful to people who have real problems - like waking up at night, hearing voices and so on- and experience that these problems do not just disappear through a prayer being spoken. We need to keep on praying!

[LutheranMafia]

Actually, in the sources RadMan linked to, it says that the boy played with an Ouija board and that his mother also introduced him to occult practices. If small children put their hands on a hot stove they get burned. Irrespetive of whether they are "inocent" or "small". It just shows what huge responsibility parents have to protect their children. Not just from physical harm but also spiritual one.That is interesting. When I was 3 or 4 I spent a lot of time with my great grandmother while my parents were divorcing. She pulled out a Ouija board one day and we both put our hands on the triangular thing, but after about 10 seconds I became extremely alarmed. I didn't say anything, but about 10 seconds after that Mommies jumped up looking quite alarmed too and put the board away, to my great relief.

[AngelusSax]

I find it absolutely fascinating the turn this thread has taken.

I was going to come in and say that I hate it when people say "Oh I'm not religious but I'm spiritual". I've taken to asking them "what does that mean???"

But the direction went in a totally opposite, yet fascinating, way. I've oft been asked by my students about demons and ghosts and the like. I know that there are demons out there that are continually attacking and trying to attack. I've seen them. (go ahead, call me crazy. But I'll tell my story if you wanna hear it.) I've seen them driven out. I've driven them out.

But it's amazing...the things we'll talk about! I LOVE it!

I'd love to hear about your story. I absolutely believe in demons, possession, exorcisms (not necessarily in the RCC version of exorcism, but some kind of casting out), and the like.

[LutheranMafia]

Striving for deeper faith is not a good thing? Since when?

But the effort is not borne of ourselves, it is borne of the Spirit. And striving for deepened faith is indeed a good work, even if done for ourselves. How can it not be deemed "good"?
I’m genuinely confused now; it is a good work that is not borne of ourselves? I thought the whole idea of good works was that it was something we do of our own choice which has no effect on our salvation. Now you seem to be describing a good work that is not our choice but does affect our salvation.

But why do you insist on taking something that is simple and making it so complicated that no one understands it? My positions are based on clear understanding of Scripture. I have no idea where yours come from.Your simplistic interpretation of scripture contain paradoxes and subtle contradictions. It seems incomplete to me. I’m just responding to the paradoxes that I see in your statements.

[LutheranMafia]

I'd love to hear about your story. I absolutely believe in demons, possession, exorcisms (not necessarily in the RCC version of exorcism, but some kind of casting out), and the like.I second that motion!

I see things too, a solid color in the eyes and another on the skin. It is very hard for me to tell what color eyes people have because the colors I see are so tangible. Whenever I see red or blue in people's eyes they act in alarming ways. I've gotten use to the notion that it is sort of like agents from the Matrix who can pop in and out of some people as they please, but other people are more resistant and I'll only see the odd color in their eyes for a few moments. These people are generally better mannered and more disciplined.

[DaRev]

I’m genuinely confused now; it is a good work that is not borne of ourselves? I thought the whole idea of good works was that it was something we do of our own choice which has no effect on our salvation. Now you seem to be describing a good work that is not our choice but does affect our salvation.

You need to learn how to read. :doh:

I will say it again. We can do nothing good on our own. All good that we do, whether to others or for ourselves, is borne of the Spirit. We don't do them to get saved, we do them because we are already saved. The good works that we do are a result of our salvation, they are a response to our saving faith.

This has been explained to you so many times by so many people on here that it's beginning to sound like a broken record.

Your simplistic interpretation of scripture contain paradoxes and subtle contradictions. It seems incomplete to me. I’m just responding to the paradoxes that I see in your statements.

I have asked you several times to show me where I have contradicted myself, but you have yet to show me anything. The reason you can't is because I haven't contradicted myself.

It seems impossible for you to verify any statement you make.

If I have, show me so I can explain or correct. I'm still waiting.

[LutheranMafia]

Even the disciples were not always successfull at first and Jesus told them that some demons are only driven out py praying and fasting.

We should take the Gospel reports as a confirmation that demons are defeated and ultimately have to leave. But that does not mean that they always leave immediately. It just is not like that. Denying this is not helpful to people who have real problems - like waking up at night, hearing voices and so on- and experience that these problems do not just disappear through a prayer being spoken. We need to keep on praying!But do they ever leave immediately for anyone since Biblical times?

[LutheranMafia]

You need to learn how to read. :doh:

I will say it again. We can do nothing good on our own. All good that we do, whether to others or for ourselves, is borne of the Spirit. We don't do them to get saved, we do them because we are already saved. The good works that we do are a result of our salvation, they are a response to our saving faith.

This has been explained to you so many times by so many people on here that it's beginning to sound like a broken record.

I have asked you several times to show me where I have contradicted myself, but you have yet to show me anything. The reason you can't is because I haven't contradicted myself.

It seems impossible for you to verify any statement you make.

If I have, show me so I can explain or correct. I'm still waiting.I just showed you one right now, but instead of addressing it you got irate and changed the subject to rehashing the ABCs of LCMS doctrine. That was my whole point, that your last statement appeared to contradict the basics of LCMS doctrine.

This is the general impression I have, whenever I show you a contradiction you evade it by changing the subject and assiduously avoid ever honestly addressing any of my questions about what I see as contradictions in your theology.

[DaRev]

I just showed you one right now, but instead of addressing it you got irate and changed the subject to rehashing the ABCs of LCMS doctrine. That was my whole point, that your last statement appeared to contradict the basics of LCMS doctrine.

This is the general impression I have, whenever I show you a contradiction you evade it by changing the subject and assiduously avoid ever honestly addressing any of my questions about what I see as contradictions in your theology.

No, you keep telling me what you think I've said that is contradictory, but you've not shown me the post or quoted me verbatim. You have twisted everything I've said, but you refuse to quote me verbatim or link to a specific post where I've made contradictory statements. I have not at all said the things you keep saying I have. If I did, show me the post.

So, I am sitting here, still waiting.

[LutheranMafia]

No, you keep telling me what you think I've said that is contradictory
That is precisely what I just said. :doh:
but you've not shown me the post or quoted me verbatim.
This is my 4th attempt to get you to address a single sentence in your post #31:But the effort is not borne of ourselves, it is borne of the Spirit. And striving for deepened faith is indeed a good work, even if done for ourselves. How can it not be deemed "good"?To which I replied:I’m genuinely confused now; it is a good work that is not borne of ourselves? I thought the whole idea of good works was that it was something we do of our own choice which has no effect on our salvation. Now you seem to be describing a good work that is not our choice but does affect our salvation.


You have twisted everything I've said,
I have told you what I think is a contradiction. You call it twisted simply because they are fair but very tough questions which are not easy for you to even address, much less answer, because you don't examine your own thoughts in that kind of detail the way I examine my own thoughts. You try to make it sound like my honest opinions and questions are somehow a dishonest manipulation. This in of itself is a good example of a polemic manipulation. If anyone is guilty of polemic rhetoric it is definitely not me. I do not have a doctrinal axe to grind, I just have some honest questions that I think most ELCA members share.

but you refuse to quote me verbatim or link to a specific post where I've made contradictory statements. I have not at all said the things you keep saying I have. If I did, show me the post.

So, I am sitting here, still waiting.
I'm still waiting for the first answer, but you have only excuses for why you refuse to answer and must continually change the subject in response to each of my questions.

[DaRev]

This is my 4th attempt to get you to address a single sentence in your post #31: Originally Posted by DaRev http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47158977#post47158977) But the effort is not borne of ourselves, it is borne of the Spirit. And striving for deepened faith is indeed a good work, even if done for ourselves. How can it not be deemed "good"?

To which I replied: Originally Posted by LutheranMafia I’m genuinely confused now; it is a good work that is not borne of ourselves? I thought the whole idea of good works was that it was something we do of our own choice which has no effect on our salvation. Now you seem to be describing a good work that is not our choice but does affect our salvation.



If you had really read anything that I've posted, you'd know what I meant. Like I said before, you need to learn how to read. I'm tired of repeating myself to you. No one else here has any problem understanding what I'm saying.

[LilLamb219]

I’m genuinely confused now; it is a good work that is not borne of ourselves? I thought the whole idea of good works was that it was something we do of our own choice which has no effect on our salvation. Now you seem to be describing a good work that is not our choice but does affect our salvation.

Da Rev is trying to say the same thing that the Lutheran Confessions state. Here it is from the Epitome of the Formula of Concord number 17: and that after this conversion the reborn human will is not idle in the daily exercise of repentance, but cooperates in all the works of the Holy Spirit which he performs through us.

[LutheranMafia]

I already understood and agreed with that part. I said so a several times to DaRev.

What I don't understand is how deepening faith is a good work. It sounds like the reverand is saying that good works can lead to stronger faith. I thought that the notion of good works leading to faith was fundamentally contrary to Lutheranism.

[seajoy]

I already understood and agreed with that part. I said so a several times to DaRev.

What I don't understand is how deepening faith is a good work. It sounds like the reverand is saying that good works can lead to stronger faith. I thought that the notion of good works leading to faith was fundamentally contrary to Lutheranism.
No matter what he says, you will think what you want anyway. Why should he even try to explain himself?

[LutheranMafia]

What does that mean, think what I want? Who does not, you?

Hopefully the reverand is not just explaining "himself", but rather explaining LCMS doctrine, and hopefully Luther. I'm starting to loose confidence in that last hope however.

[DaRev]

What I don't understand is how deepening faith is a good work.

If it's not a good work, then it must be an evil work, right? :scratch:

It sounds like the reverand is saying that good works can lead to stronger faith. I thought that the notion of good works leading to faith was fundamentally contrary to Lutheranism.

Good works can and do lead to stronger faith. Good works are the result of the Spirit who is the Agent of the good work. Thus, the Holy Spirit is the Agent of deepened and strengthened faith, not us. That is not at all contrary to Lutheranism. That is precisely what Lutheranism teaches.

[BabyLutheran]

No matter what he says, you will think what you want anyway. Why should he even try to explain himself?

And vice versa...lol

[LutheranMafia]

If it's not a good work, then it must be an evil work, right? :scratch:
You are projecting your own penchant for false high contrast dichotomies onto me. That sounds to me more like part of your MO than mine.

Good works can and do lead to stronger faith. Good works are the result of the Spirit who is the Agent of the good work. Thus, the Holy Spirit is the Agent of deepened and strengthened faith, not us. That is not at all contrary to Lutheranism. That is precisely what Lutheranism teaches.

Since this refers exclusively to the Holy Spirit operating through us, how do you know when it is someone acting on their own and when someone is acting at the behest of the Holy Spirit? Perhaps this is a basic catechism question, but I don’t understand how thinking in these terms can be applied in a tangible way.

[DaRev]

You are projecting your own penchant for false high contrast dichotomies onto me. That sounds to me more like part of your MO than mine.

I just don't understand how you think that deepening and strengthening faith isn't good. Perhaps you can explain why you believe it isn't.

Since this refers exclusively to the Holy Spirit operating through us, how do you know when it is someone acting on their own and when someone is acting at the behest of the Holy Spirit? Perhaps this is a basic catechism question, but I don’t understand how thinking in these terms can be applied in a tangible way.
.
Scripture. It says "there is no one who does good, not even one." Therefore, the good works being done are not the result of someone "acting on their own" since no one can do good on their own. The sinful human nature precludes it. Thus, the good we do must be borne of God, which the Scriptures also tell us. Good works are called the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 5:9).

[LilLamb219]

Since this refers exclusively to the Holy Spirit operating through us, how do you know when it is someone acting on their own and when someone is acting at the behest of the Holy Spirit? Perhaps this is a basic catechism question, but I don’t understand how thinking in these terms can be applied in a tangible way.

ALL good works are because of the Holy Spirit leading...if the Holy Spirit hasn't led, then in God's eyes, because it's not done by faith, it is not a good work.

We aren't the ones who will always know what is a good work and what is done because of ulterior motives. But God does.

[LutheranMafia]

I just don't understand how you think that deepening and strengthening faith isn't good. Perhaps you can explain why you believe it isn't.
I never said that it isn’t good, but that it is not a work, in the context of the dichotomy between faith and works. Perhaps I am misapplying this dichotomy.
Scripture. It says "there is no one who does good, not even one." Therefore, the good works being done are not the result of someone "acting on their own" since no one can do good on their own. The sinful human nature precludes it. Thus, the good we do must be borne of God, which the Scriptures also tell us. Good works are called the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 5:9).
That does not negate that it is cooperating with the Holy Spirit by which this occurs. When a dog does his master’s will to the benefit of others, both dog and master receive thanks. It is not an either/or thing.

[LilLamb219]

Good works are not done to receive Thanks. They are done because our neighbors need them.

[LutheranMafia]

I was using the analogy of a dog rescue team to elucidate the issue of volition and will in the interplay between man and Holy Spirit. I was not trying to make a point about the nature of charity and agapé.

The main issue I have here is of volition and choice. I'm saying that even though the dog on his own cannot help anyone without his master, that doesn't mean that the dog has no will in the matter. Without his master's guidance the dog has no idea how to help others in any meaningful way. The only thing the dog can do to help others is obey his master with great obedience, but that obeisance is still a choice.

[seajoy]

What does that mean, think what I want?

It means.......no matter what anyone here says, you come to your own whacky conclusions just cause you like to get people's goat. HELLO.


Hopefully the reverand is not just explaining "himself", but rather explaining LCMS doctrine, and hopefully Luther. I'm starting to loose confidence in that last hope however.
Go read the LCMS website, that should keep you occupied for a while.

[DaRev]

That does not negate that it is cooperating with the Holy Spirit by which this occurs. When a dog does his master’s will to the benefit of others, both dog and master receive thanks. It is not an either/or thing.

But even the "cooperation" is borne of the Spirit because we natural sinful humans don't have that ability apart from Him. Thus we don't call it a 'choice" to do good works but rather a reaction or response to the Spirit's prompting.

You once used an analogy of noodles dancing in boiling water. We are the noodles, God is the heat. We noodles, without God's heat, can't do anything but float in the water. We are by nature sinful and separated from God and thus there is no good in us. He prompts, we react. "We love because He first loved us." (1John 4:19)
The only difference with the noodle analogy is that we have the ability to resist God's prompting. The heat is applied but we can refuse to dance. That's our only "choice" borne of our own sinful will. But without the heat (God) at all, there is no dancing, there is no good works.

[DaRev]

Hopefully the reverand is not just explaining "himself", but rather explaining LCMS doctrine, and hopefully Luther. I'm starting to loose confidence in that last hope however.

I can assure you that it is Confessional Lutheran doctrine, and thus, Luther.

[Edial]

Even the disciples were not always successfull at first and Jesus told them that some demons are only driven out py praying and fasting.

We should take the Gospel reports as a confirmation that demons are defeated and ultimately have to leave. But that does not mean that they always leave immediately. It just is not like that. Denying this is not helpful to people who have real problems - like waking up at night, hearing voices and so on- and experience that these problems do not just disappear through a prayer being spoken. We need to keep on praying!
My point is not to stop keeping on praying.

The general message in the NT is that they leave immediately even when the unbelievers cast them out in the name of Jesus.

Example:
AC 19:13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

In the above example the problem for not being able to cast out a certain demon was because the seven sons were unbelievers. So, he beat them up and stayed. Yet other "weaker" demons were simply leaving.

The specific reference that you are using is this ...

MK 9:28 After Jesus had gone indoors, his disciples asked him privately, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
MK 9:29 He replied, "This kind can come out only by prayer."

Outside of this example, the disciples were readily driving out demons.

LK 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

Here what fascinated to me concerning your post.

You mentioned "by prayer and fasting".
This addition "and fasting" was added to the Greek manuscripts much later on by the scribes.
Only King James (and I think NKJ) translations have it - Textus Receptus.
These were compiled from the later manuscripts.
Why did the scribes added it? Why did they see a need to add it?

It appears to me that by the time the later manuscripts were penned, people already were seeing that they have a problem driving demons out immediately ... even in cases of strong demons.

A process of fasting takes time. Simple prayer did not appear to help. So, it appears to me, by adding "and fasting", time was added.

But in the earlier manuscripts, it was only a prayer that drove a stubborn demon out.
And for the others, not even a prayer was needed.

Concerning these people that pray and are not succesful in defeating their own problems.
I would suggest the following ... and it worked for me on some occasions.

First, the DO NOT.

DO NOT ask just anyone to just pray for you, like posting it in the church bulletins. It is not the "power if prayer" that helps, but God.
People are funny. If a person does not really likes you, I personally do not want his/her prayer.

DO ask someone who really likes you in a spiritual way to pray for you. That someone must really love you as a friend and pray for you from the heart.

And better yet (and this is from my personal experience), when I was really desperate on one occasion and had a feeling that my prayers were simply bouncing off the ceiling - I asked Holy Spirit (since He is in me) to pray for me and to relay the message to the people that He knows who should pray for me.

A distant friend of mine called with whom we went through much in the spiritual walk.
She told me that she prayed for me. (I will not add what else she said concerning this).

My problem went away.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Edial]

Some of us do :).
Good. :) So God was prompting you.

Ed, you mentioned seeing things as you fall asleep. That sounds very much like hypnagogia where the brain is in REM mode but the person is very much awake. I have suffered from this since I was a child. When someone experiences the same type of thing upon awakening, it is called hynopompic brain activity. A lot of "ghosts" and aliens can be attributed to this brain disorder.
Of course I did the medical research on this.
I do not know what brain disorder is or what brain disorder is not.

What I do know is when I became a Christian, my dreaming patterns changed dramatically.
I also began seeing supernatural things in real life. Some rather fascinating stories. It lasted about a couple of years.
I do not see them in real life any longer.

And prior me becoming a Christian I began seeing extremely clear dreams concerning that my life is about to change.
These were so clear, that I even wrote one down for the first time in my life (a three part dream in one night after which I was waking up in amazement and falling back to sleep).

Later on, after I became a Christian, I understood what it meant.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[LutheranMafia]

I can assure you that it is Confessional Lutheran doctrine, and thus, Luther.Of this I never had any doubt, but I don’t think that Martin ever directly addressed my specific concern, so a certain amount of extrapolation is required, which takes more effort, and I was starting to fear that you would not deem the challenge worthy in any way.

But even the "cooperation" is borne of the Spirit because we natural sinful humans don't have that ability apart from Him. Thus we don't call it a 'choice" to do good works but rather a reaction or response to the Spirit's prompting. Alright, its time for me to get a basic catechism lesson, I clearly have a big misunderstanding here. I thought that it is faith and salvation that are not matters of choice, but that good works are neither a matter of salvation or of nonexistent free will. In other words, since good works are not a matter of salvation, and we only have no free will in matters of salvation, that good works are a matter of free will.You once used an analogy of noodles dancing in boiling water. We are the noodles, God is the heat. We noodles, without God's heat, can't do anything but float in the water. We are by nature sinful and separated from God and thus there is no good in us. He prompts, we react. "We love because He first loved us." (1John 4:19)
The only difference with the noodle analogy is that we have the ability to resist God's prompting. The heat is applied but we can refuse to dance. That's our only "choice" borne of our own sinful will. But without the heat (God) at all, there is no dancing, there is no good works.The noodle vs. the canine analogy of free will is in truth no more of an ‘analogy’ than the particle vs. the wave theory of light and matter. All four are equally a part of God’s absolute truth, no matter how paradoxical the two pairs seem.

It is like the two natures of the Son, mentioned in the Creed, which are both God, but not by virtue of “comingling”. You cannot introduce particle characteristics into the wave theory—just as you cannot introduce free will into the noodle analogy, the noodle analogy is about God’s perspective, the canine analogy is about our perspective. God does not have free will as such, He has only Absolute Will, so you can't introduce free will into the analogy that depicts God's perspective.

From God’s perspective there is no free will. “I Am the Ultimate I Am”, God said to Moses. “I shall turn demon against demon”, paraphrased from somewhere in the Book of Revelation. But that is a certain mixing of the divine and mortal perceptions, for there was never in truth any ‘turning’ involved—demons and the damned always do God’s bidding in a certain sense. They are absolute slaves to what they hate most, their very own life-force, the presence of God within them that makes their existence possible at all. We need evil like seeds need soil, like evolution needs harsh selective pressure to spur evolution, and like Newton’s Second Law, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction—without friction or something to push against we could not move at all. And so evil fulfills God’s purposes, perfectly. In the noodle analogy everything is always following God’s plan perfectly.

[DaRev]

Alright, its time for me to get a basic catechism lesson, I clearly have a big misunderstanding here. I thought that it is faith and salvation that are not matters of choice, but that good works are neither a matter of salvation or of nonexistent free will. In other words, since good works are not a matter of salvation, and we only have no free will in matters of salvation, that good works are a matter of free will.

Faith and salvation are not a 'choice' we make, but rather a free gift from God by His grace. Good works flow out of this grace of God. They are the fruits of faith, a reaction to God's grace.

[LutheranMafia]

Faith and salvation are not a 'choice' we make, but rather a free gift from God by His grace. Good works flow out of this grace of God. They are the fruits of faith, a reaction to God's grace.Yes, that is most certainly the truth, but I am contrasting the 'choice' between faith and faithlessness. While faith involves submission to a Greater Will and faithless does not, submission to God is still no more or less a 'choice' than faithlessness. Either way we choose. As Bob Dilan sang, "You've got to follow somebody. It may come down to God or it may come down to the devil, but you've got to follow somebody."

[DaRev]

Yes, that is most certainly the truth, but I am contrasting the 'choice' between faith and faithlessness. While faith involves submission to a Greater Will and faithless does not, submission to God is still no more or less a 'choice' than faithlessness. Either way we choose. As Bob Dilan sang, "You've got to follow somebody. It may come down to God or it may come down to the devil, but you've got to follow somebody."

Faith is not a choice. Faithlessness is. That's the point.

[Tetzel]

I throw my beer at them.

[LilLamb219]

Everyone rep Tetzel!

[RevCowboy]

I throw my beer at them.

You mean your empty beer glass.... a full one would be heresy. ;)

[DaRev]

I throw my beer at them.

:eek: That's beer abuse!!!!!

[seajoy]

I throw my beer at them.
Consider yourself repped! I always do what LilLamb tells me to. :)

[LilLamb219]

Consider yourself repped! I always do what LilLamb tells me to. :)

Heh, just call me the Pied Piper! ^_^