Question

[ProScribe]

Are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus?

More specifically, are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus on the basis of observance or adherence to Judaism? . . .

[Talmidah]

Are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus?

More specifically, are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus on the basis of observance or adherence to Judaism? . . .


Hi ProScribe :wave:

Its great that you've come to ask your question. Unfortunately, the Jews you ask about are not allowed to answer you here due to the rules of the forum. I'm sure if you send a PM to any one of us, we'd be happy to explain our point of view to you. :)

[simchat_torah]

Hi ProScribe :wave:

Are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus?

More specifically, are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus on the basis of observance or adherence to JudaismIts great that you've come to ask your question. Unfortunately, the Jews you ask about are not allowed to answer you here due to the rules of the forum. I'm sure if you send a PM to any one of us, we'd be happy to explain our point of view to you. :)

Sincerely,
Yafet

[A_Pioneer]

I know you guys think the god of this world is satan, but the real God of this world blinded the unbelievers so they could not see the Glory of the Messiah.

"Besides me there is no other God." God is one!

Just why would Yeshua say to all the Jews he healed, "Tell no one.", but to the ones of the nations he gave no such charge? Tkink about it!

It is the same today. "No on can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." Then "Catch 22" "No one comed to the Father, but by me."
And then; Ro 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
This will be done when He returns! NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!!!!

[ShirChadash]

Hi ProScribe :wave:

Its great that you've come to ask your question. Unfortunately, the Jews you ask about are not allowed to answer you here due to the rules of the forum. I'm sure if you send a PM to any one of us, we'd be happy to explain our point of view to you. :)



Hi ProScribe :wave:

Its great that you've come to ask your question. Unfortunately, the Jews you ask about are not allowed to answer you here due to the rules of the forum. I'm sure if you send a PM to any one of us, we'd be happy to explain our point of view to you. :)

Sincerely,
Yafet

dittos

[Kris10leigh]

Sad. Really sad. Because I think this is a good question that all might benefit from.

I applaud you all for your very clever responses.

[ChazakEmunah]

Hi ProScribe :wave:

Its great that you've come to ask your question. Unfortunately, the Jews you ask about are not allowed to answer you here due to the rules of the forum. I'm sure if you send a PM to any one of us, we'd be happy to explain our point of view to you. :)

[ChavaK]

You need to define your question, please.
Are you talking about Messianic Jews or
traditional Jews?

Because from either side, the question does
not make sense to me. So I think I am
misunderstanding what you are asking.
:)

[Torah613]

Are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus?

More specifically, are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus on the basis of observance or adherence to Judaism? . . .


Hi Proscribe!

You've asked a very good question. However the people you are asking about are not allowed due to the regulations of this forum to respond. I am sure if you PM any one of us we would be happy to explain our point of view. Alternatively you can also ask it in the Non-Christian Religion area where we can respond as well.

Sincerely,
Yochanan

[ProScribe]

What about those who reject the New Testament of the common Bible?

. .

[Torah613]

see above posts.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

Are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus?

More specifically, are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus on the basis of observance or adherence to Judaism? . . .


What about those who reject the New Testament of the common Bible?

. .


You might ask your questions in this forum here, instead

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=76

where we are allowed to answer with fewer limitations.

[ChavaK]

What about those who reject the New Testament of the common Bible?

. .


Upon reflection, I think it best if I do not answer either, so
I deleted my post.
I do not want to have my post reported and end up
in trouble with the rules and mods....

[simchat_torah]

yes, makes no sense.

but we can't answer it even if it did make sense.

[nomoreillusions]

Are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus?

More specifically, are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus on the basis of observance or adherence to Judaism? . . .



Yes and yes.

:)

[ProScribe]

I observe simple questions that can't be answered.

[Torah613]

as Orthodox Jews we like keeping rules, and answering those questions here is against the rules of hte forum. So if you would like to take those questions elsewhere we would be more than happy to answer them.

Yochanan

[christianmomof3]

What did I miss? What is the deal with people being allowed to post or not to post? Who can and who cannot post where and why?
I will answer the question because I have no idea what is going on here so I figure I can post.
All Jews reject Jesus except for those of us who are also Christians.
The Jewish religion does not accept the New Testament as scripture and it does not accept Jesus as anything other than a man who was a teacher about 2000 years ago who a bunch of misguided people think is God and Jews do not think Jesus was the messiah. Some Jews believe the messiah will be a person who will not also be God and other Jews believe that the term "messiah" refers to an age of peace.
Any Jew who believes that Jesus is God (like me) is considered an apostate.

[simchat_torah]

What did I miss? What is the deal with people being allowed to post or not to post? Who can and who cannot post where and why?
Someone asks "What does Judaism believe on XYZ topic?"
A Jew answers, "Judaism believes such and such."
Post gets deleted.
Jew gets PM from mod, "Prosyletizing is not allowed."

Rinse.

Repeat.

[Lulav]

Someone asks "What does Judaism believe on XYZ topic?"
A Jew answers, "Judaism believes such and such."
Post gets deleted.
Jew gets PM from mod, "Prosyletizing is not allowed."

Rinse.

Repeat.

You must be special. Mine get deleted, moved, and no one tells me. I think I am losing my mind, not nice to do to someone with Celiac and having brain foggy days after getting glutened!

[Lulav]

1.Are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus?

More specifically, 2. are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus on the basis of observance or adherence to Judaism? . . .

I will answer you.

1. Yes All Orthodox Jews reject Jesus as Promised Messiah

2. I am not sure what you mean but if you mean by talmudic teachings and Rabbinic teachings ( meaning their own personal one as opposed to the sages that wrote the Talmud) yes. It is part of their statement of faith. There are also untrue things written about him by one whose writings they respect greatly, Rambam, or Maimonides who wrote the Mishnah Torah.

I don't see it so much a rejection as not even bothering to find out about him, but they go by what they are told to believe about him.

[ProScribe]

I will do my own research on this subject. Thank you

. . .

[Torah613]

You must be special. Mine get deleted, moved, and no one tells me. I think I am losing my mind, not nice to do to someone with Celiac and having brain foggy days after getting glutened!

we've all gotten such pm's accusing us (falsely) of prosyletizing.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I will answer you.

1. Yes All Orthodox Jews reject Jesus as Promised Messiah

2. I am not sure what you mean but if you mean by talmudic teachings and Rabbinic teachings ( meaning their own personal one as opposed to the sages that wrote the Talmud) yes. It is part of their statement of faith. There are also untrue things written about him by one whose writings they respect greatly, Rambam, or Maimonides who wrote the Mishnah Torah.

I don't see it so much a rejection as not even bothering to find out about him, but they go by what they are told to believe about him.

Where is the third temple, where is world peace, is everyone now vegetarian? If Je*us was Moshiach, than why did the Inquisition, the Shoah, and the Pogroms happened (because of Xtianity that's why, but that's another topic). For us its a simple equation x=/=y.

Not that we disrespect xtianity as such (there are some good people in it) but to say that we only believe what we are told simply fosters ignorance. As Orthodox Jews we study (and study and study) and don't simply buy into something. Many of us have personally investigated the claims, and found them underwhelming.

Yochanan

Note: the above is not intentended to disrespect xtian beliefs, but to point out that the above is not entirely true about Judaism. so its basically selfdefense of a verbal nature.

[Lulav]

I was not trying to offend, but to answer his questions. I am sorry he felt pressured to leave. This is my prospective and one that I have heard from other Jews who have come to believe in Messiah,. I don't think there are many who have investigated for themselves, that is a problem. To think you know everything about something because someone told you is not reality. I have seen many a Jew that won't talk about Yeshua, or is offended even at his name. If he is unreal, is not Messiah, why be so adamant to not want to discuss? I think it is because of the stigma the church as a whole has put on Jews, thus we have all been called Christ Killers one time or another and it hurts, and it repels, but it shouldn't impede our learning. Do we accept that they are right about us and thus give up finding something we have been searching for because of things they've said and wrongful things they have done? I don't believe we should or I wouldn't believe as I do.

And you have to admit is is on both sides horrible and wrongful and slanderous things Jews have been accused of, by Christians, and horrible and wrongful and slanderous things have been said about One Jew, by Jews.

So do two wrongs make a right? No. I don't believe so. anyway

[Kris10leigh]

Not that we disrespect xtianity as such (there are some good people in it) but to say that we only believe what we are told simply fosters ignorance. As Orthodox Jews we study (and study and study) and don't simply buy into something. Many of us have personally investigated the claims, and found them underwhelming.

.

Of course there are some very learned Christians who study and study, but overall, it has been my experience that Christians do tend to just believe what they are told. It's called "faith". I have issues with Catholisism, but Catholics do put their children through rigerous Christian education when they are young. My churches never did that. It has also been my experience that Jews take on life long learning which is what attracted me to MJism to begin with.

So I agree with what you have said, but would like to place more emphasis on the part where you say "there are good people in it" meaning there are good Christians out there. Of course there are hypocrites. Aren't there in every religion? But even those Christians with whom you may disagree are good people. At heart, Christians teach love.

[Torah613]

I will say that when i was a xtian, I was just believing what I was told.

Yochanan

[Kris10leigh]

I will say that when i was a xtian, I was just believing what I was told.

Yochanan
Me too, as well as my entire family and all of my friends. And then I decided to stray off the worn path...

[Torah613]

Hmm methinks of Robert Frost.

Yochanan

[visionary]

I think you might get better answers when I move this thread over to an area where the jews will have more freedom to answer your questions.

[christianmomof3]

I will say that when i was a xtian, I was just believing what I was told.

Yochanan
It is interesting to read the responses on this thread. My experience in Reform Judaism was that I was never given any explanation of anything or any answers as to why things were done a certain way other than - "because that is what you do to be a good Jew - it is tradition."
It seems that in some Christian groups people have had similar experiences.
I did not become a Christian because of anything anyone told me and my "faith" is not based on believing what people say. My faith is from the Lord Himself and I question Him constantly and He answers me.
I believe that God exists not because someone told me that He does, but because someone lead me to Him and helped me to open myself to Him and now He lives in me and no one has to teach me to know Him because I know Him because He is in me.
Heb 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

[visionary]

It is interesting to read the responses on this thread. My experience in Reform Judaism was that I was never given any explanation of anything or any answers as to why things were done a certain way other than - "because that is what you do to be a good Jew - it is tradition."
It seems that in some Christian groups people have had similar experiences.
I did not become a Christian because of anything anyone told me and my "faith" is not based on believing what people say. My faith is from the Lord Himself and I question Him constantly and He answers me.
I believe that God exists not because someone told me that He does, but because someone lead me to Him and helped me to open myself to Him and now He lives in me and no one has to teach me to know Him because I know Him because He is in me.
Heb 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Me too....:amen::thumbsup:

[Lulav]

Where is the third temple, where is world peace, is everyone now vegetarian? If Je*us was Moshiach, than why did the Inquisition, the Shoah, and the Pogroms happened (because of Xtianity that's why, but that's another topic). For us its a simple equation x=/=y.

Not that we disrespect xtianity as such (there are some good people in it) but to say that we only believe what we are told simply fosters ignorance. As Orthodox Jews we study (and study and study) and don't simply buy into something. Many of us have personally investigated the claims, and found them underwhelming.

Yochanan

Note: the above is not intentended to disrespect xtian beliefs, but to point out that the above is not entirely true about Judaism. so its basically selfdefense of a verbal nature. Hey Yochanan, I asked this of Shirchadash in another thread< I am trying to figure out all the prophecies about Messiah, because I keep hearing that Yeshua did not meet these. I never heard of the one that we all should be vegetarians. So you think that when Moschiach comes that sacrifices will cease, and the priest hood done away with? because if not, then how would the mitzvot regarding the priesthood and certain sacrifices, be fulfilled? I really don't understand this , could you elaborate for me? And so then why would we need a third temple if you couldn't eat the sacrifices, see what I mean? :scratch:

Also you asked where is the Shalom? and I keep thinking about what Yeshua said, that he did not come to bring shalom but a sword, one that divides. Because some would be for him and others against him to show who belongs to G-d and that believing in him would cause strife in a family and those who didn't believe in him would turn against their own family members and make it so they disowned them and even offered them up to the authorities to be killed.

[visionary]

Prophecy that the Temple will be Rebuilt: Yuma 72a (Atzei Shittim Omdim)

[Torah613]

Lulav, are you familliar with Rav Avraham Yitzchak Cook, the first chief rabbi of Isreal? He talks in depth about how when Moshiach comes we will be vegetarian.

IIRC you can find the prophecies on a website I'm not able to give the link to on this site.

Yochanan

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Someone asks "What does Judaism believe on XYZ topic?"
A Jew answers, "Judaism believes such and such."
Post gets deleted.
Jew gets PM from mod, "Prosyletizing is not allowed."

Rinse.

Repeat. Jew gets PMS from Mod.^_^ PMS: Privite Message Sent.

[kivi]

Are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus?

More specifically, are there Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus on the basis of observance or adherence to Judaism? . . .



The rejection of Jesus Christ in any of his roles [Son of Man, Son of God, Messiah, 2nd part of the Trinity, judger of humanity, divine Son, etc] as defined by Christianity has numerous origins.

A/ For an Observant Jew, of course, the basis of our rejection is that the character called Jesus Christ as found in the New Testament does not fulfill any of the fundamental requirements of the Messiah:
1/ That he will be from the House of David
2/ That he will rebuild the Temple and re-institute Temple worship including korban
3/ That he will bring all of the Jews back from galus to Eretz Israel
4/ That he, as King, will establish a Torah government
5/ That the entire world will recognize the Lordship of HaShem, Jew and gentile, and there will be World Peace.
Unless each and every of these requirements are met, the person in question is not Moshiach.
Furthermore, the idea of a person killed by G-d to atone for the sins of an another is abhorent as is any concept of spirituality that includes human sacrifice for any reason. The idea that there can be 3 parts of the divine or that Jesus Christ is God or that he was conceived by God in a human female or that he 'rose' from the dead or 'ascended into Heaven' or that the is a Devil or a forever Hell are all totally forbidden by Torah Law and Spirituality.

B/ For any person, the 2000 year long persecution of the Jews and most non-Christians by all sects of Christianity would indicate that the message of love that Christianity claimes to preach is, in fact, really a message of hatred and intolerance. As such, any empathetic person would seriously question whether any adherence to Christianity would be right/correct/loving/pro-humanity/positively spiritual.

C/ The historic record of the authenticity of the history of Christian is seriously flawed. As such, any rational/thinking person would rightfully be hesident in supporting Christianity because of its questionable origins/claims/source/historic record.

[kivi]

What about those who reject the New Testament of the common Bible?

. .


A/ For the Observant Jew, the New and Old Testament clearly falls into the prohibition of not adding or subtracting from the Torah. Moreover, it teaches numerous ideas and philosophies like a Devil and a forever Hell, human sacrifice and human/divine intercourse that are abhorent to Torah. Finally, it is slanderous against the very spiritual tradition, Pharisaic Judaism, that we are part of.

B/ For an empatetic person, the numerous incidents of hubris, spiritual pride, incitement to violence and intolerance should raise serious questions as to the spiritual fixness of both the New and Old Testaments.

C/ For a thinking person, the incredibly large number of obvious historic and factual errors in the New and Old Testament should be a warning of incompedence on the part of the authors and translators of the Christian Bible.

[kivi]

Lulav, are you familliar with Rav Avraham Yitzchak Cook, the first chief rabbi of Isreal? He talks in depth about how when Moshiach comes we will be vegetarian.

IIRC you can find the prophecies on a website I'm not able to give the link to on this site.

Yochanan

The condition of Gan Edan and humanity up until Noach and the Flood was that humans were not permitted to eat meat. If the coming of the Messiah will, in effect, re-insitute the conditions of Gan Edan, it is likely that humanity will no longer have the permission to eat meat.

[Torah613]

All three posts well said Kivi. Couldn't agreee more.

Yochanan

[Talmidah]

I agree as well. Great posts, kivi.

[ProScribe]

As a Christian, I can read and study the Torah (Pentateuch) - the first 5 books of the Old Testament; 1) Genesis, 2) Exodus, 3) Leviticus, 4) Numbers, and 5) Deuteronomy.

. . .

[Torah613]

yes we know what those are.

What is your point?

Yochanan

[ProScribe]

There seems to be a paradox or a conflicting schema - the Bible tells us to obey the commandments of the OT and also to repent and believe the Gospel in the NT. I don't understand the apparent contradiction between believing Jesus Christ as come from God and the Orthodox Jews who do not believe.

[Steve Petersen]

It would be enlightening to know how many Jews on this forum were born and raised as Jews and how many are converts from some form of Christianity.

[GerTzedek]

I don't have the numbers for that, Steve. But I do know that many or perhaps most of the Jews that are here, are here precisely because they used to be involved in MJ, and so many different psychological elements come into play: the desire to make right what they had done incorrectly, sympathy for those still involved, a deep sense of responsibility for fellow Jews still involved in MJ. Some of them are Ba'al Tshuva and others or gentiles who became Jews through halakhic conversion. I CAN tell you that the one friend I brought into the Messianic forum who actually WAS born and raised Conservative Jew and who became a Messianic Jew (without any stint in a gentile church) couldn't stomach it because it was so gentile and Christian. If I had to make a sweeping generalization, I would say that most Jews who are raised religeous wouldn't touch the Messianic forum with a ten foot pole as they would find it overwhelmingly offensive and, well, whacko.

[GerTzedek]

There seems to be a paradox or a conflicting schema - the Bible tells us to obey the commandments of the OT and also to repent and believe the Gospel in the NT. I don't understand the apparent contradiction between believing Jesus Christ as come from God and the Orthodox Jews who do not believe.

Where in the Hebrew scriptures does it say, "Believe thou in the gospels of the New Testament" ????? Any chapter and verse? Of course not. Because it's not there.

You might benefit from reading the thread titled "What do Orthodox Jews believe" where some of the Christian arguments that the Hebrew Scriptures make prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, yada yada, are answered. There are also plenty of good websites. PM me if you want references to them. Or just go talk to your local rabbi. If you really want to "understand the apparent contradiction," you need to find out what Jews believe and how Jews understand JEWISH scriptures, and you do that by taking the time to read and listen.

Instead of simply making announcements like this from your pulpit.

[GerTzedek]

What about those who reject the New Testament of the common Bible?

. .

"Common Bible?" Common to whom? Not common to Jews. You mean the Christian Bible.

[Torah613]

well said Ger.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

I don't have the numbers for that, Steve. But I do know that many or perhaps most of the Jews that are here, are here precisely because they used to be involved in MJ, and so many different psychological elements come into play: the desire to make right what they had done incorrectly, sympathy for those still involved, a deep sense of responsibility for fellow Jews still involved in MJ. Some of them are Ba'al Tshuva and others or gentiles who became Jews through halakhic conversion. I CAN tell you that the one friend I brought into the Messianic forum who actually WAS born and raised Conservative Jew and who became a Messianic Jew (without any stint in a gentile church) couldn't stomach it because it was so gentile and Christian. If I had to make a sweeping generalization, I would say that most Jews who are raised religeous wouldn't touch the Messianic forum with a ten foot pole as they would find it overwhelmingly offensive and, well, whacko.

That's a post that bears repeating...

[kivi]

As a Christian, I can read and study the Torah (Pentateuch) - the first 5 books of the Old Testament; 1) Genesis, 2) Exodus, 3) Leviticus, 4) Numbers, and 5) Deuteronomy.

. . .


kivi say: That is not accurate. The Old Testament is not equivilant to the Tanach. There are numerous cases were the translations used in the Old Testament do serious violence to the original Hebrew/Aramaic as found in the Tanach. It is a phallacy that Christians perpetrate that their Old Testament is authoritive for Jews. It is not. Only the original Hebrew/Aramaic of the Tanach is authoritive. Each and every time a Chirstian quotes from any Old Testament translation, their quote must be examined and, if necessary, challenged.

[Torah613]

true dat.

Yochanan

[kivi]

There seems to be a paradox or a conflicting schema - the Bible tells us to obey the commandments of the OT

kivi says: That is because the Old Testament is a Christian translation that purposely changes the Tanach so that the final product no longer is accurate, but rather, it supports Christian ideas, ideas that are not found in the Tanach. Its called forgery.

and also to repent and believe the Gospel in the NT.

kivi says: For some unknown reason, Christians just don't ask Jews and Judaism what Judaism believes about itself and how Judaism really operates. Maybe Christians are too scared or too arrogant. I don't know. I'm an historian. When I want to know about something, I go to the original documents as well as the writings of later historians. I don't ignore the original documents or change them to agree with what I already think. I take the original documents and treat them with respect and care. If I want to know about the Salem Witch Trials [which is what I am studying now] I go to the writings of the participants, not just the later commentators. But, that just might be me. Christians just assume that what Christianity says about Judaism is the truth. Nothing could be more inaccurate. Nothing that Chrstianity says about Judaism can be taken at face value without checking in with the Jews. Only Judaism has the right to define what it is and what it is not. Chirstianity does not have that right.

I don't understand the apparent contradiction between believing Jesus Christ as come from God and the Orthodox Jews who do not believe.


kivi says: That is because you are clueless about Orthodox Judaism. I don't mean to be very insulting. But your ignorance is appalling. And what makes it even more difficult is that you can not learn because you already think you know it. You really have to give up every pre-conception you have about Judaism and deal with it with an open mind.

[ChavaK]

I know you guys think the god of this world is satan,
Huh?? What are you talking about??

but the real God of this world blinded the unbelievers so they could not see the Glory of the Messiah.
No, He gave us the Torah to prevent us from following false gods,
false prophets and false messiahs. He has blinded us from following
all these, including seeing the "Glory of the (false) messiah".

"Besides me there is no other God." God is one!
So why worship a man as god?

Just why would Yeshua say to all the Jews he healed, "Tell no one.", but to the ones of the nations he gave no such charge?
Probably because a) no one would believe it, and it would save
him embarassment b) he wasn't interested in converting Jews, but
the gentiles from their paganism.

It is the same today. "No on can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." Then "Catch 22" "No one comed to the Father, but by me."
And then; Ro 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
This will be done when He returns! NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!!!!
We really don't care what the GT says, as it is written by men,
and therefore of no value.

[ProScribe]

[{edit}]

[ProScribe]

Christianity requires an -open heart-

kivi says: That is because the Old Testament is a Christian translation that purposely changes the Tanach so that the final product no longer is accurate, but rather, it supports Christian ideas, ideas that are not found in the Tanach. Its called forgery.As a basic "scholar", I have a few observations about your statements and assertions above. It does not seem conducive to the truth when one must say or assert something is false because it supports a Christian "idea,notion,or concept". This calls something a forgery because the said document does not support your religion. This line of thinking follows this logic, if any document,writing,or manuscript does not support Judaism (Pharisaical Judaism) it must be a forgery or false.



kivi says: For some unknown reason, Christians just don't ask Jews and Judaism what Judaism believes about itself and how Judaism really operates. Maybe Christians are too scared or too arrogant. I don't know. I'm an historian. When I want to know about something, I go to the original documents as well as the writings of later historians. I don't ignore the original documents or change them to agree with what I already think. I take the original documents and treat them with respect and care. If I want to know about the Salem Witch Trials [which is what I am studying now] I go to the writings of the participants, not just the later commentators. But, that just might be me. Christians just assume that what Christianity says about Judaism is the truth. Nothing could be more inaccurate. Nothing that Christianity says about Judaism can be taken at face value without checking in with the Jews. Only Judaism has the right to define what it is and what it is not. Christianity does not have that right.

What is the OP of this thread? A basic inquiry into Judaism based on strict observation and adherence to the Torah. My primary reason for the thread was to inquire and ask about Judaism and what Orthodox Jews believe about their ancient religion. On the same coin, one could say that Jews could have many misconceptions and misunderstandings about Christianity. Do you know of an Orthodox Jew that truly knows and understands the authentic religion of Christianity? /And it would also seem that you would not find a Christian who knows and understands the ancient religion of the Orthodox Jews. /


kivi says: That is because you are clueless about Orthodox Judaism. I don't mean to be very insulting. But your ignorance is appalling. And what makes it even more difficult is that you can not learn because you already think you know it. You really have to give up every pre-conception you have about Judaism and deal with it with an open mind.

I accept your assertions and claims with practical humility. (Pardon my English)

I should re-iterate that the original purpose of the thread was to inquire and learn about Judaism. Since I am being very clear and precise in my points, I should elucidate my "scholarship" on the New Testament is based on a) simple acceptance b) authentic witness c) and general acceptance of truth. I accept the 3 Synoptic Gospels of (Matthew,Mark,Luke) as having authentic historical narrative and authentic witness to the truth. There is also the spiritual Gospel of (John) 1,2,and 3 which I also accept as truth. My "scholarship" is based on simple acceptance of the NT Gospels. Simply, because I find no critical reason to question these specific authors. In this, a critical analysis of the Peshitta.

http://peshitta.info/

This also would include the rest of the canonical and sacred books of New Testament.

. . .

[ProScribe]

kivi say: That is not accurate. The Old Testament is not equivilant to the Tanach. There are numerous cases were the translations used in the Old Testament do serious violence to the original Hebrew/Aramaic as found in the Tanach. It is a phallacy that Christians perpetrate that their Old Testament is authoritive for Jews. It is not. Only the original Hebrew/Aramaic of the Tanach is authoritive. Each and every time a Chirstian quotes from any Old Testament translation, their quote must be examined and, if necessary, challenged.

Are the 10 commandments authoritative for the Orthodox Jews?

[GerTzedek]

Yes.

Let me see if I can lay it out for you as clearly as possible.

The first five books of the Bible are called, alternatively, Torah, the Books of Moses, the Books of Law, the Pentateuch. Nothing has higher authority for Jews than these five books, because G-d dictated them directly to Moses. Unlike all other prophets, Moses was in the presence of G-d, heard the voice of G-d. It was very unique. There was never another prophet before him or after him who was like him. There are not just 10 commandments, but 613. Torah is:
Genesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis) בראשית B'reshit
Exodus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus) שמות Sh'mot
Leviticus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviticus) ויקרא Vayiqra
Numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Numbers) במדבר B'midbar
Deuteronomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuteronomy) דברים D'varim

Then there are the books of the Nevi'im, the Prophets. These are not quite the same list as what Christians list as prophets. The Prophets were inspired exactly what to write, but they were not in the presence of G-d the way Moses was, they did not hear G-d's voice. So they have authority, but not the same level of authority as the Torah. These books are:
Joshua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Joshua) יהושע Yehoshua
Judges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judges) שופטים Shophtim
Samuel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Samuel) (I & II) שמואל Sh'muel
Kings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Kings) (I & II) מלכיםM'lakhim
Isaiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah) ישעיה Y'shayahu
Jeremiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jeremiah) ירמיה Yir'mi'yahu
Ezekiel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Ezekiel) יחזקאל Y'khezqel
Hosea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Hosea) הושע Hoshea
Joel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Joel) יואל Yo'el
Amos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Amos) עמוס Amos
Obadiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Obadiah) עובדיה Ovadyah
Jonah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jonah) יונה Yonah
Micah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Micah) מיכה Mikhah
Nahum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Nahum) נחום Nakhum
Habakkuk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk) חבקוק
Zephaniah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Zephaniah) צפניה Ts'phanyah
Haggai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Haggai) חגי Khagai
Zechariah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Zechariah) זכריה Z'kharyah
Malachi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Malachi) מלאכי Mal'akhi

Finally there are simply the Ketuvim, the Writings. These are inspired by the Spirit of G-d, but not necessarily inspired word for word. They have authority, but not the same level authority as the prophets, and certainly not the same level as Torah. They are:

The "Sifrei Emet," "Books of Truth":
Psalms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms) תהלים T'hilim
Proverbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Proverbs) משלי Mishlei
Job (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job) איוב Iyov

The "Five Megilot" or "Five Scrolls":

Song of Songs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs) שיר השירים Shir Hashirim
Ruth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Ruth) רות Rut
Lamentations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamentations) איכה Eikhah
Ecclesiastes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastes) קהלת Qohelet
Esther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Esther) אסתר Est(h)er

The rest of the "Writings":

Daniel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel) דניאל Dani'el
Ezra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra)-Nehemiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehemiah) עזרא ונחמיה Ezra wuNekhem'ya
Chronicles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Chronicles) (I & II) דברי הימים Divrey Hayamim

Now. If you take the T from Torah, the N fro Nevi'im, and the K from Ketuvim, you get TNK, or TeNaKh, our word for our Scriptures.

[ProScribe]

What is hagiographa?

Hag·i·og·ra·pha http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/H00/H0015800) Audio Help (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/audio.html) /ˌhæghttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngiˈɒghttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngrəhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngfə, ˌheɪhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngdʒi-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hag-ee-og-ruh-fuh, hey-jee-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun (used with a singular verbhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) the third of the three Jewish divisions of the Old Testament, variously arranged, but usually comprising the Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Chronicles.
Also called the Writings.

. .

[Torah613]

a greek (read foreign) word with no bearing on the TaNaKh.

Yochanan

[ProScribe]

Is this website approved for learning and study?

http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm
http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm#Written

. . .

[kivi]

Christianity requires an -open heart-

As a basic "scholar", I have a few observations about your statements and assertions above. It does not seem conducive to the truth when one must say or assert something is false because it supports a Christian "idea,notion,or concept". This calls something a forgery because the said document does not support your religion. This line of thinking follows this logic, if any document,writing,or manuscript does not support Judaism (Pharisaical Judaism) it must be a forgery or false.

kivi says: I did not say it was a forgery because it supports Christianity. I said it was a forgery because the original text was changed in the translation [Old Testament] process so that the translation [Old Testament] no longer agrees with the original [Tanach] in the original langauge [Hebrew/Aramaic]. Often, how it no longer agrees is that the translation [Old Testament] supports the idea that Jesus is the messiah while the original [Tanach] does not. If you care to, we can go through the entire Old Testament to point out the forgeries.



What is the OP of this thread? A basic inquiry into Judaism based on strict observation and adherence to the Torah. My primary reason for the thread was to inquire and ask about Judaism and what Orthodox Jews believe about their ancient religion.

kivi says: Being an Orthodox Jew, I can promise you that you have been getting exactly what you have asked for.

On the same coin, one could say that Jews could have many misconceptions and misunderstandings about Christianity. Do you know of an Orthodox Jew that truly knows and understands the authentic religion of Christianity?

kivi says: You can find many Orthodox Jews who are conversent with Christianity. Either because they were Jews who were practicing Christinaity for a while before they did tzeuvah and returned to Judaism or they were Christians who converted to Judaism. In my case, I am an historician who did his Master's on the 2nd Great Awakening and the Burnt-over District in Upper New York State, 1830-40. I am very familiar with Christianity. A lot of my research for my PhD also included a detailed knowledge of Christainity in the USA.


/And it would also seem that you would not find a Christian who knows and understands the ancient religion of the Orthodox Jews. /

kivi says: It has been my experience that most Christians take what Christianity says about Judaism as true. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I accept your assertions and claims with practical humility. (Pardon my English)

[quote]I should re-iterate that the original purpose of the thread was to inquire and learn about Judaism. Since I am being very clear and precise in my points, I should elucidate my "scholarship" on the New Testament is based on a) simple acceptance b) authentic witness c) and general acceptance of truth.

kivi says: Haven't you read the history of the New Testament? How it was written, how it was edited, the difficulties in creating a final and complete text, the canonization process. Haven't you studied the major commentators? Haven't you learned the basic historical processes of Christian development? Haven't you inquied into the major orthodox and heretical Christian theologies and how they played out?


I accept the 3 Synoptic Gospels of (Matthew,Mark,Luke) as having authentic historical narrative and authentic witness to the truth. There is also the spiritual Gospel of (John) 1,2,and 3 which I also accept as truth. My "scholarship" is based on simple acceptance of the NT Gospels. Simply, because I find no critical reason to question these specific authors. In this, a critical analysis of the Peshitta.

http://peshitta.info/

This also would include the rest of the canonical and sacred books of New Testament.

. . .

kivi says: How sad.

[kivi]

Are the 10 commandments authoritative for the Orthodox Jews?

kivi says: Strange as it might sounds to your ears, in Orthodox Judaism, the 10 Commandments are not counted in the 613 Mitzvahs of the Torah. Instead, the 10 Commandments are considered to be philosophical categories and/or legal categories into which the 613 Mitzvahs of the Torah are placed/divided/categorized.

[kivi]

Is this website approved for learning and study?

http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm
http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm#Written ...

kivi says: Not bad stuff, but pretty general. If you want the real nitty gritty: ou.org [the Orthodox Union] or aish.com [great history section under Jewish literacy].

[GerTzedek]

Its the identical list, Yochanan. Somewhere along the way, either hellenistic Jews or gentile scholars came up with the word.

[ProScribe]

kivi says: Strange as it might sounds to your ears, in Orthodox Judaism, the 10 Commandments are not counted in the 613 Mitzvahs of the Torah. Instead, the 10 Commandments are considered to be philosophical categories and/or legal categories into which the 613 Mitzvahs of the Torah are placed/divided/categorized.

I'm a student of Christianity.

I want to learn and study about Judaism because of its connection to G-d. [study] In Judaism, there is the historic,biblical figure of the OT Prophet Moses. Correct?

I'm a beginner, only learning the elementary basics.
http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm

. . .

[ProScribe]

Yes.

Let me see if I can lay it out for you as clearly as possible.

The first five books of the Bible are called, alternatively, Torah, the Books of Moses, the Books of Law, the Pentateuch. Nothing has higher authority for Jews than these five books, because G-d dictated them directly to Moses. Unlike all other prophets, Moses was in the presence of G-d, heard the voice of G-d. It was very unique. There was never another prophet before him or after him who was like him. There are not just 10 commandments, but 613. Torah is:
Genesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis) בראשית B'reshit
Exodus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus) שמות Sh'mot
Leviticus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviticus) ויקרא Vayiqra
Numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Numbers) במדבר B'midbar
Deuteronomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuteronomy) דברים D'varim

Then there are the books of the Nevi'im, the Prophets. These are not quite the same list as what Christians list as prophets. The Prophets were inspired exactly what to write, but they were not in the presence of G-d the way Moses was, they did not hear G-d's voice. So they have authority, but not the same level of authority as the Torah. These books are:
Joshua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Joshua) יהושע Yehoshua
Judges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judges) שופטים Shophtim
Samuel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Samuel) (I & II) שמואל Sh'muel
Kings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Kings) (I & II) מלכיםM'lakhim
Isaiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah) ישעיה Y'shayahu
Jeremiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jeremiah) ירמיה Yir'mi'yahu
Ezekiel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Ezekiel) יחזקאל Y'khezqel
Hosea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Hosea) הושע Hoshea
Joel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Joel) יואל Yo'el
Amos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Amos) עמוס Amos
Obadiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Obadiah) עובדיה Ovadyah
Jonah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jonah) יונה Yonah
Micah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Micah) מיכה Mikhah
Nahum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Nahum) נחום Nakhum
Habakkuk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk) חבקוק
Zephaniah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Zephaniah) צפניה Ts'phanyah
Haggai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Haggai) חגי Khagai
Zechariah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Zechariah) זכריה Z'kharyah
Malachi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Malachi) מלאכי Mal'akhi

Finally there are simply the Ketuvim, the Writings. These are inspired by the Spirit of G-d, but not necessarily inspired word for word. They have authority, but not the same level authority as the prophets, and certainly not the same level as Torah. They are:

The "Sifrei Emet," "Books of Truth":
Psalms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms) תהלים T'hilim
Proverbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Proverbs) משלי Mishlei
Job (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job) איוב Iyov

The "Five Megilot" or "Five Scrolls":

Song of Songs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs) שיר השירים Shir Hashirim
Ruth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Ruth) רות Rut
Lamentations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamentations) איכה Eikhah
Ecclesiastes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastes) קהלת Qohelet
Esther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Esther) אסתר Est(h)er

The rest of the "Writings":

Daniel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel) דניאל Dani'el
Ezra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra)-Nehemiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehemiah) עזרא ונחמיה Ezra wuNekhem'ya
Chronicles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Chronicles) (I & II) דברי הימים Divrey Hayamim

Now. If you take the T from Torah, the N fro Nevi'im, and the K from Ketuvim, you get TNK, or TeNaKh, our word for our Scriptures.

Thank you for this list. I'll keep it for future reference. Thank you

. .

[ProScribe]

kivi says: I did not say it was a forgery because it supports Christianity. I said it was a forgery because the original text was changed in the translation [Old Testament] process so that the translation [Old Testament] no longer agrees with the original [Tanach] in the original langauge [Hebrew/Aramaic]. Often, how it no longer agrees is that the translation [Old Testament] supports the idea that Jesus is the messiah while the original [Tanach] does not. If you care to, we can go through the entire Old Testament to point out the forgeries.

My Bible is not a forgery.

Genesis 2.1 [And the heavens and the earth were finished, and all their host. (2) And on the seventh day God completed his work which He had made. And He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. (3) And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because He rested from all His work on it, which God had created to make.]

Genesis ch.2.4 [These are the births of the heavens and of the earth when they were created in the day that Jehovah was making earth and heavens - (5) and every shrub of the field was not yet on the earth, and every plant of the field had not yet sprung up; for Jehovah God had not sent rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground. (6) And mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. (7) And Jehovah formed man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.]


kivi says: Being an Orthodox Jew, I can promise you that you have been getting exactly what you have asked for.

. . .


kivi says: You can find many Orthodox Jews who are conversent with Christianity. Either because they were Jews who were practicing Christinaity for a while before they did tzeuvah and returned to Judaism or they were Christians who converted to Judaism. In my case, I am an historician who did his Master's on the 2nd Great Awakening and the Burnt-over District in Upper New York State, 1830-40. I am very familiar with Christianity. A lot of my research for my PhD also included a detailed knowledge of Christainity in the USA.

What do you know about Christianity?
. .


kivi says:[It has been my experience that most Christians take what Christianity says about Judaism as true. Nothing could be further from the truth]. . .


kivi says: Haven't you read the history of the New Testament? How it was written, how it was edited, the difficulties in creating a final and complete text, the canonization process. Haven't you studied the major commentators? Haven't you learned the basic historical processes of Christian development? Haven't you inquied into the major orthodox and heretical Christian theologies and how they played out?

My "scholarship" of the [Christian] NT is based on simple acceptance of the Gospels, authentic witness to the truth. The Gospels is to be obeyed and the authentic testimony of the written word of God is a clear and public revelation everywhere. In the world, the kingdoms,the continents,the mountains, the international sea zone + and the hemispheres (north,south,east,west) of the earth. [planet earth]



kivi says: How sad.. . .

[ProScribe]

What Judaism says about the messiah or the term/title moshiach:

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm


The Messianic Idea in Judaism

Belief in the eventual coming of the moshiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/rambam.htm)'s 13 Principles of Faith (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/13.htm), the minimum requirements of Jewish belief (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/beliefs.htm). In the Shemoneh Esrei (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/shemoneh.htm) prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the moshiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/temple.htm) service.
Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/torah.htm) (the first five books of the Bible).
However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The moshiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the moshiach; thus, the concept of moshiach was known in the most ancient times.
The term "moshiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The moshiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.
The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "moshiach" will be used throughout this page.
The Moshiach

The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as "moshiach ben David" (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/israel.htm). He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the moshiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the moshiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the moshiach, then that person is not the moshiach.
When Will the Moshiach Come?

There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the moshiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the moshiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the moshiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the moshiach will come.
Although some scholars believed that G-d (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/g-d.htm) has set aside a specific date for the coming of the moshiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the moshiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the moshiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the moshiach will come:


if Israel repented a single day;
if Israel observed a single Shabbat (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/shabbat.htm) properly;
if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;
in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;
in a generation that loses hope;
in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;

What Will the Moshiach Do?

Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/people.htm)by bringing us back to Israel (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/israel.htm) and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/temple.htm) and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age

The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/afterlife.htm). In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.
Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.
All of the Jewish people (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/people.htm) will return from their exile among the nations (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/nation.htm) to their home in Israel (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/israel.htm) (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/g-d.htm) as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/sacrifice.htm) will continue to be brought in the Temple (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/temple.htm), but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/zebach.htm), because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.
What About Jesus?

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.
On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/akiba.htm), one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the moshiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/sacrifice.htm) at the site of the Temple (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/temple.htm) and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/people.htm) were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.
Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the moshiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the moshiach: Shimeon Bar Kokhba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the heading False Messiahs in his book, The Joys of Yiddish (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609607855/judaism101). But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the moshiach; therefore, none of them were the moshiach. The moshiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.
Biblical Passages Referring to the Moshiach

The following passages in the Jewish scriptures (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/scriptures.htm) are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:


Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14

If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic, see the Jews for Judaism (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/) website, especially the Knowledge Base under Resources. The Knowledge Base addresses more than 130 of the most common arguments that evangelists make to Jews.



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[ProScribe]

[study] In Judaism, there is the historic,biblical figure of the OT Prophet Moses. Correct?http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/moses.htm


The Exodus and the Giving of the Torah

As centuries passed, the descendants of Israel became slaves in Egypt. They suffered greatly under the hand of later Pharaohs. But G-d (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/g-d.htm) brought the Children of Israel out of Egypt under the leadership of Moses (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/moses.htm).
G-d led them on a journey through the wilderness to Mount Sinai. Here, G-d revealed Himself to the Children of Israel and offered them a great covenant: if the people would hearken to G-d and observe His covenant, then they would be the most beloved of nations (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/nation.htm), a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. (Ex 19). G-d revealed the Torah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/torah.htm) to his people, both the written (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/written.htm) and oral Torah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/oral.htm), and the entire nation responded, "Everything that the L-rd has spoken, we will do!" According to Jewish tradition, every Jewish soul that would ever be born was present at that moment, and agreed to be bound to this covenant.

[kivi]

My Bible is not a forgery.

kivis says: The Old Testament is not the same document as the Tanach, it does not have the same text. And, of course, there is nothing in Jewish Scriptures that has any coorespondence to the New Testament.

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What do you know about Christianity?

Did my Master's in the 2nd Great Awakening and the Burnt Over District in upper state New York, most of my Doctorate studies required an extensive knowledge of Chirstianity, studied at Union Theological for several semesters; was a vestryman of my parrish, taught Bible School for many years, was a lay preacher.
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My "scholarship" of the [Christian] NT is based on simple acceptance of the Gospels, authentic witness to the truth. The Gospels is to be obeyed and the authentic testimony of the written word of God is a clear and public revelation everywhere. In the world, the kingdoms,the continents,the mountains, the international sea zone + and the hemispheres (north,south,east,west) of the earth. [planet earth]

. . .

[ProScribe]

kivis says: The Old Testament is not the same document as the Tanach, it does not have the same text. And, of course, there is nothing in Jewish Scriptures that has any coorespondence to the New Testament.

Do you accept the book of Hebrews as part of your Jewish Scriptures?

. . .

Did my Master's in the 2nd Great Awakening and the Burnt Over District in upper state New York, most of my Doctorate studies required an extensive knowledge of Chirstianity, studied at Union Theological for several semesters; was a vestryman of my parrish, taught Bible School for many years, was a lay preacher.
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[GerTzedek]

[quote=ProScribe;47289523]

Do you accept the book of Hebrews as part of your Jewish Scriptures?

quote]
I gave for you a very full and careful outline of the Tenakh, listing every book. You will notice that it lists absolutely no books from the Christian scriptures, including Hebrews. It kind of hurts my feelings, because I put a lot of time into that post, and it makes me feel that you didn't consider it.

Why would you imagine we would include Hebrews? I think if you use your intelligence, and remember that JC is irrelevant to us, that it follows that all writing of his followers would mean nothing to us.

[ProScribe]

Do you accept the book of Hebrews as part of your Jewish Scriptures?

I gave for you a very full and careful outline of the Tenakh, listing every book. You will notice that it lists absolutely no books from the Christian scriptures, including Hebrews. It kind of hurts my feelings, because I put a lot of time into that post, and it makes me feel that you didn't consider it.

Why would you imagine we would include Hebrews? I think if you use your intelligence, and remember that JC is irrelevant to us, that it follows that all writing of his followers would mean nothing to us.

After this, I'm going to reply to your PM. My scholarship -supports- the New Testament. That includes the specific book of Hebrews. I cite the Old Testament as authoritative in Bible study. I'm to be cautious in these matters of religion,religious observance and beginning (a beginner) to learn about Judaism. My current pre-disposition is not to hate the Jews (the subtle trap of anti-Semitism) in context of world history and the WII Holocaust; but learn from them.

PS