As a Messianic...

[johnd]

What is your position on the salvation / eternal state of unbelieving (in Jesus) Jews and why?

[johnd]

This is where I thought I was posting this !!!

Thanks!

[Gwenyfur]

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Moved to debate at OP's request

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[A_Pioneer]

What is your position on the salvation / eternal state of unbelieving (in Jesus) Jews and why?Jn. 5:24 If this does not cover God Fearing Jews, I can't read English!
Ro 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

Now secular Jews! That is a whole different story. Since they do not follow the Rabbi's advise; "Repent the day before you die." Uh oh!?

[HaReb]

At a push you might think of Romans 2:9-16 but... there again Matthew 7:15-23 might apply!

[johnd]

Jn. 5:24 If this does not cover God Fearing Jews, I can't read English!
Ro 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

Now secular Jews! That is a whole different story. Since they do not follow the Rabbi's advise; "Repent the day before you die." Uh oh!?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Interesting point.

But what do you do with this?

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Given the weight of these verses "believe on him" who sent me is to be understood as the belief that he sent him... and to take him at his word:

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

****

Romans 11:26 is predicated on...

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

****

And secular anyone:

Psalm 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psalm 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

[A_Pioneer]

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Interesting point.

But what do you do with this?

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Given the weight of these verses "believe on him" who sent me is to be understood as the belief that he sent him... and to take him at his word:

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

****

Romans 11:26 is predicated on...

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

****

And secular anyone:

Psalm 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psalm 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
When the fullness of time comes about, God has it all worked out!
I, unlike Christians believe the God of this world is the Father of the Messiah and he blinded the Jews so they could not see the glory of the messiah. The second verse where-in all of Israel is saved God will open the eyes of ALL the Jews who Honor God. At that time All the Jews will accept the Moshiach as the "Son of God." All is well that ends well.
I believe this is the 'loving God' that loved the world so, that he sent his only begotten son into the world that the whole world could be saved.
This may not be the conventional wisdom, but it is what I read from the pages of the bible. If God played 'Trick or Treat' with the Clildren of Israel, he's not a God one can trust. I trust the Father!

Todah rabah, Shalom u'vrachot.

[A_Pioneer]

OBTW, the Jews were quite happy to keep the God of Israel to themselves but God wanted the Kingdom to go out to all the Nations, this is why he sent a a poretz!

Shalom

[johnd]

When the fullness of time comes about, God has it all worked out!

Then why bother to have faith, or concern ourselves with Torah, Principals,, or anything else God wants from us or for us... since in the end he has it all worked out?

I mean why go to all the trouble (that God, Jews, and Christians have suffered and endured) if all God had to do to mankind was holler down from the porch of heaven, "Hello y'all! I'm here, and I'll work it all out in the end. Y'all just go on and play now!"

Sorry, I don't buy it. Rather, God took an impossible situation (salvation) and made it possible for some. What is amazing is that it is available to any. Though it is offered to all. And the hell of it is that it is only a matter of acceptance and faith... and it has not always been available to all... and to the previous race God created (the angelic host) it is not even available (since those that fell did so in their eternal state).

I, unlike Christians believe the God of this world is the Father of the Messiah and he blinded the Jews so they could not see the glory of the messiah.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1. Are you saying the passage refers to YHVH God?
2. Are you saying the Father of the Messiah is the evil one to whom most believe this passage refers?

Your answer is vital...

But until I receive a response, I'll answer this on the point of blindness:

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Did God blind their minds or did the devil?

It has been said that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh... and if as the Potter he chose to do so with that lump of clay, it is well within his rights to do so... but some have said that the condition (and / or content) of Pharaoh's heart is what hardened in the presence of a loving God. In other words, the same sun that melts the wax also hardens the clay.

Would God really blind those who would have otherwise believed, or did the devil?

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

This is an inconsistency with the God who never changes...

Rather, God would have all men saved, but he gave man choice from day one in Eden. Assuming you and I are agreed that not all men are saved... which would be universalism and would go back to my first point in this response.

The second verse where-in all of Israel is saved God will open the eyes of ALL the Jews who Honor God. At that time All the Jews will accept the Moshiach as the "Son of God." All is well that ends well.

1. You said it your self: AT THE TIME.

Most believe this refers to those Jews who survive persecution to the point of annihilation (who many believe will actually call out to Yeshua as an extreme last resort since nothing else has worked) will be saved by the return of Yeshua to the earth in wrath against those who seek to destroy the remnant.

2. Another view is that "klal yisro'el" refers to the Spirit Israel consisting of Jews and Gentiles who believe in the Messiah.

I believe this is the 'loving God' that loved the world so, that he sent his only begotten son into the world that the whole world could be saved.
This may not be the conventional wisdom, but it is what I read from the pages of the bible. If God played 'Trick or Treat' with the Children of Israel, he's not a God one can trust. I trust the Father!

Todah rabah, Shalom u'vrachot.

You prefaced this with "I believe" which simply expresses your opinion, and I respect it as just that. Have a good day!

Shalom u'vrachot b'Yeshua haMashiach (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D9L305W4SM)

[A_Pioneer]

My bible says (out of the mouth of God) besides me there is no other God.
If satan is god of this world then the God of Heaven doesn't really speak truth!

How do lost folks of the nations get around their blindness, I see no distinction between the Jew and those of the Nations in the scripture? Does satan have a kind heart and allow the Gentile go to God? LOL!!!!! Just how is it that satan blinded only Jews? Too many years of Christian rethoric.

I ask this all the time, but no answers. "Why would Yeshua heal Jews and say "Don't tell anyone." But to those of the Nations he gives no such charge." Seems to me he did not want Jews who should have know to recognize the truth, contrary to the expressed mission of the Messiah, right? Inconsistant, right?

Just remember that Yeshua said that "It is not the will of the Father that any of these little ones should perish." BUT, Perish, they do! What does that say?
[1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.]
2 Pe. 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.(Contrary to Gods wishes)

One more question. If Jesus is the only way, why would a 'loving God' wait so many thousand years to send the 'only way' to a lost and dying world? For God so loved the world-------! Asleep at the wheel? Good Grief! Should I question whether God is really God or is satan in charge?

Todah rabah, Baruch Hashem.

[johnd]

My bible says (out of the mouth of God) besides me there is no other God.
If satan is god of this world then the God of Heaven doesn't really speak truth!

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

One true God, many false gods. The god of this world is a false god.

How do lost folks of the nations get around their blindness, I see no distinction between the Jew and those of the Nations in the scripture?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The blindness is the result of rejection. For God wants all to be saved...

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And the Father draws people to believe.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And Jesus draws people to believe.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Does satan have a kind heart and allow the Gentile go to God? LOL!!!!! Just how is it that satan blinded only Jews? Too many years of Christian rethoric.

Let me turn this around a bit. Jews were given the revelation of God. Gentiles were not. The Jews (that rejected the Messiah) ought to have known better. The Gentiles didn't have a clue, but the Gentiles (who accepted the Messiah) by comparison were given sight while the Jews who rejected Jesus had blinders over their eyes (their own hands). They did not want to believe.

And btw, I don't laugh at your opinion. I disagree with it. It has in a sense blinded you to the authenticity of the New Testament scriptures for national pride. But I don't laugh at it or you.

I ask this all the time, but no answers. "Why would Yeshua heal Jews and say "Don't tell anyone."

Quite simply because though he is God in flesh, he had to live as a man in order to qualify as the goel / kinsman redeemer. If you will look very closely there is only one miracle he performed prior to the cross under his own power... and that only after being given the go ahead by the Father (the resurrection of Eleazar / Lazarus.

It was not Jesus' time to die. He was vulnerable to attack and it was not his time to be revealed. When it was time, 10 Nisan 30 CE, he arranged it to be heralded in what Christians have come to call the Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday.

This was the fulfillment of the date set by the Prophet Daniel in chapter 9:24-26 that 173,880 days after the decree to rebuild the city Jerusalem* would elapse until the Messiah the Prince would come.

*Nehemiah 2:1-8 this occurred in the years 445 BCE

Jesus revealed himself to the Sanhedrin and all Jerusalem on the prescribed day... many along the way began singing Hoshanah psalms...

They had the scriptures, the date and the miracle evidence... and officially rejected him and denounced and persecuted all who did not reject Jesus.

Luke 19:28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
29 And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples,
30 Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.
31 And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.
32 And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.
33 And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?
34 And they said, The Lord hath need of him.
35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
36 And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.
37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

You either got bad teaching from ignorant people or you simply have not read New Testament Scripture.

But to those of the Nations he gives no such charge." Seems to me he did not want Jews who should have know to recognize the truth, contrary to the expressed mission of the Messiah, right? Inconsistant, right?

No. Ignorance of the facts (on your part or the part of the one who taught you such drivel).

Just remember that Yeshua said that "It is not the will of the Father that any of these little ones should perish." BUT, Perish, they do! What does that say?
[1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.]
2 Pe. 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.(Contrary to Gods wishes)

Little ones in context refers to those who believe.

Matthew 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

One more question. If Jesus is the only way, why would a 'loving God' wait so many thousand years to send the 'only way' to a lost and dying world? For God so loved the world-------! Asleep at the wheel? Good Grief! Should I question whether God is really God or is satan in charge?

Todah rabah, Baruch Hashem.


First of all a cursory read of Paul's apologetic on Mars Hill (Acts 17:22-34) shows the measuring rod God used for judgment. And during the period of Law atonement (not salvation nor entrance into heaven upon death) until the cross. And once he paid the eternal price for human sin, he went to Abraham's bosom (in sheol) where the atoned for dead awaited salvation and took this captivity captive to the highest heaven (Ephesians 4:8-10).

God did not wink the eye at sin, but he did judge with regard and respect to the amount of revelation man in the past had... take the Noahic covenant prior to the Mosaic Law for example.

Again, you should not be so quick to discount New Testament scriptures. They fill in the blanks even the Tanakh does not fill in... like the disposition of people before the Law. Can't answer it from Tanakh can you? If so, do share.

Peace.

[visionary]

Since you are asking Jews to state why they do not belive in Yeshua, I will move it where they will be more freely able to answer.

[johnd]

Wait a minute, was this not in the Debate forum? Freeing them to respond... or so I was under the impression...

If nothing else it belongs in general theology apologetics.

Furthermore the question was not what you stated. It was:

"What is your position on the salvation / eternal state of unbelieving (in Jesus) Jews and why?"

What is the Messianic's position on the eternal state of unbelieving Jews and why do they believe what they believe?

[ShirChadash]

OBTW, the Jews were quite happy to keep the God of Israel to themselves but God wanted the Kingdom to go out to all the Nations, this is why he sent a a poretz!

Shalom how do you square that assertion with the fact that Judaism in Jesus's day was a proselytizing religion?

[Lulav]

?Why do posts that are for Messianic to answer being moved here?

[johnd]

My question exactly??????

[johnd]

how do you square that assertion with the fact that Judaism in Jesus's day was a proselytizing religion?

If I may add my two cents... though there were proselytes to Judaism, there was no proselytizing going on that I can find any evidence of anywhere...

[visionary]

It is not allowed for us to post regarding another's faith, where they can not fairly defend themselves.

[Lulav]

So you are saying we no longer are a part of Judaism? and to talk to other Jews we need to come here? They aren't allowed to post in our forum any longer? :scratch:


gagging and being thrown in the ghetto....................

[Tishri1]

This is a question posed to MJs so it can be moved back to MJ

[ShirChadash]

If I may add my two cents... though there were proselytes to Judaism, there was no proselytizing going on that I can find any evidence of anywhere...
*raises eyebrow*

It is quite well-thought in general that Judaism was a proselytizing religion in that day, hello.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/109/story_10994_1.html

[johnd]

The Bible does say:

Acts 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

But an evangelical-esque outreach?

Was it not more like Jewish people would move out into the world pursuing a livelihood and when a minion was established would congregate / synagogue? And some hagoyum would notice first the Shabbat-keeping then the synagogue and inquire out of curiosity / truth seeking?

Do you really think Rabbs and tsadiks went to the pubs and street corners preaching Moshe?

"Repent! Law breakers! You need to become proselytes! You can't be Jewish, of course, but proselytes!"

Please...

And the 4th Century CE cessation the article you cited mentioned could be more construed as the end of persecuting the Church (going around behind Messianic and Christian evangelism and trying to undo what they had done)... ironically at the same time Rome legalized Christianity and it was no longer as easy to persecute it as when it was outlawed.

I would not consider that proselytizing...

[visionary]

Paul was definitely an active evangelist.

Yeshua did make a comment on some with ...

Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Probably since the Revolt, that activity was frowned upon within the Jewish community... in other words,... don't invite problems when your plate is already full.

[ShirChadash]

The Bible does say:

Acts 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

But an evangelical-esque outreach?

Was it not more like Jewish people would move out into the world pursuing a livelihood and when a minion was established would congregate / synagogue? And some hagoyum would notice first the Shabbat-keeping then the synagogue and inquire out of curiosity / truth seeking?

Do you really think Rabbs and tsadiks went to the pubs and street corners preaching Moshe?

"Repent! Law breakers! You need to become proselytes! You can't be Jewish, of course, but proselytes!"

Please...

And the 4th Century CE cessation the article you cited mentioned could be more construed as the end of persecuting the Church (going around behind Messianic and Christian evangelism and trying to undo what they had done)... ironically at the same time Rome legalized Christianity and it was no longer as easy to persecute it as when it was outlawed.

I would not consider that proselytizing...
LOL
alrighty, you're entitled to your preferred misconceptions. Be my guest. I am sure it is much more comfortable to believe those nasty Jews wanted to keep G-d all locked up for themselves -- as A Pioneer asserted -- than to accept the fact that Judaism proselytized in your rabbi's day.

[Kris10leigh]

When the fullness of time comes about, God has it all worked out!
I, unlike Christians believe the God of this world is the Father of the Messiah and he blinded the Jews so they could not see the glory of the messiah. The second verse where-in all of Israel is saved God will open the eyes of ALL the Jews who Honor God. At that time All the Jews will accept the Moshiach as the "Son of God." All is well that ends well.
I believe this is the 'loving God' that loved the world so, that he sent his only begotten son into the world that the whole world could be saved.
This may not be the conventional wisdom, but it is what I read from the pages of the bible. If God played 'Trick or Treat' with the Clildren of Israel, he's not a God one can trust. I trust the Father!

Todah rabah, Shalom u'vrachot.
Wow! I like what you have to say here quite a lot!

What if God blinded the Jews to the Messiah so as to preserve the Jewish faith? What if the purpose was to finally bring Judaism and Christianity together again?

[ShirChadash]

Wow! I like what you have to say here quite a lot!

What if God blinded the Jews to the Messiah so as to preserve the Jewish faith? What if the purpose was to finally bring Judaism and Christianity together again?
I used to beleive that. It makes it neat and tidy, and easier, to believe that Jews simply don't believe in Jesus because they are being kept blind to him, rather than to accept that Jews have studied G-d's requirements and admonitions, and genuinely know that he is not the messiah because he failed to accomplish what G-d said he must in order to be known to be messiah.

[simchat_torah]

Now secular Jews! That is a whole different story. Since they do not follow the Rabbi's advise; "Repent the day before you die." Uh oh!? __
You'll buy any sort of nonsense, won't you?
the God of this world is the Father of the Messiah and he blinded the Jews so they could not see the glory of the messiah.
Wow, you believe in a pretty mean and evil G-d... one who predestined people to hell.

[simchat_torah]

OBTW, the Jews were quite happy to keep the God of Israel to themselves but God wanted the Kingdom to go out to all the Nations, this is why he sent a a poretz!
Don't mistake the preservation of the Torah to that of keeping G-d to themselves. No, Judaism was (and is) a light to the nations. Instead of forcefully changing people's minds we choose instead to witness through our actions.
though there were proselytes to Judaism, there was no proselytizing going on that I can find any evidence of anywhere...
Quite quite wrong. Judaism was heavily into prosyletizing circa 250 b.c.e. to 150 c.e.
Many sects strongly used mission fronts to spread the Torah.

[simchat_torah]

Do you really think Rabbs and tsadiks went to the pubs and street corners preaching Moshe?
Actually, yeah. "Street Preachers" were common in Jesus' day, he was only one of many.

[simchat_torah]

Yeshua did make a comment on some with ...

Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Probably since the Revolt, that activity was frowned upon within the Jewish community... in other words,... don't invite problems when your plate is already full.
Bingo Vis.

[visionary]

I used to beleive that. It makes it neat and tidy, and easier, to believe that Jews simply don't believe in Jesus because they are being kept blind to him, rather than to accept that Jews have studied G-d's requirements and admonitions, and genuinely know that he is not the messiah because he failed to accomplish what G-d said he must in order to be known to be messiah.Yeah, you are suppose to think that until the time is right... so that is good... the fact that you are here is also good... God will put it all together for you ... HIS WAY... and His purpose for leading you where He has and will is in the grand design to accomplish His purpose.

[ShirChadash]

Yeah, you are suppose to think that until the time is right... so that is good... the fact that you are here is also good... God will put it all together for you ... HIS WAY... and His purpose for leading you where He has and will is in the grand design to accomplish His purpose.
I realize this is your theology. It used to be mine.

[visionary]

I realize this is your theology. It used to be mine. In our spiritual journey with the Lord leading, we will come together and say ...:clap:

Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. :amen:

[ShirChadash]

Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.:amen:we need a *nodding* emoticon... :amen: will do :). When our Lord acts, we will know it is He.

[Lulav]

It is not allowed for us to post regarding another's faith, where they can not fairly defend themselves. So are you saying, and please link me to the rule, that we can't even mention Judaism in the Messianic forum? What are we supposed to talk about there, hymms and church services? I don't get this, then why have a MJ forum in the first place? Why not leave the Hebrew Christians over there and bring the Messianics and Orthodox torah observant over here with the same rules?

Oh and this was the OP
As a Messianic...
What is your position on the salvation / eternal state of unbelieving (in Jesus) Jews and why?
Directed to Messinics about how we feel about this and we can't even answer it in our own forum? :scratch:

Even Tishri1 said it was posed to Messianics and should be in our forum

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47104245&postcount=20



Why does anyone have to defend themselves, this is looking from a Messianic perspective. They could ask questions about why we feel as we do. I just see this as being more open for them to post whilst cramping us and gagging us to post within our own forum.

[Lulav]

If I may add my two cents... though there were proselytes to Judaism, there was no proselytizing going on that I can find any evidence of anywhere...

You can't find it anywhere? Did you start at the source? :)

matt 23:15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Acts
6:5This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.

[Lulav]

I used to beleive that. It makes it neat and tidy, and easier, to believe that Jews simply don't believe in Jesus because they are being kept blind to him, rather than to accept that Jews have studied G-d's requirements and admonitions, and genuinely know that he is not the messiah because he failed to accomplish what G-d said he must in order to be known to be messiah.

HI, Shir Chadash,

Can you tell me what made you determine that? I mean what scripture do you use to say what Messiah would do when he came and on what schedule, do you use Daniel? I am also always hearing the Yeshua didn't fulfill everything but I have not seen what it is they say he didn't fulfill. I am quite phlomixed about this myself. :confused:

[A_Pioneer]

You'll buy any sort of nonsense, won't you?

Wow, you believe in a pretty mean and evil G-d... one who predestined people to hell.Not at all! Every believing Jew is saved(Believes in the God of Avraham, Yitsack and Yaccov) Jn. 5:24.
God is Love, he will never forsake those he foreknew!
God will take the blinders off at the second coming and all Israel shall be saved. From Adam to the every last God fearing Jew on earth! Every eye will see and every knee shall bow!

[ShirChadash]

HI, Shir Chadash,

Can you tell me what made you determine that? I mean what scripture do you use to say what Messiah would do when he came and on what schedule, do you use Daniel? I am also always hearing the Yeshua didn't fulfill everything but I have not seen what it is they say he didn't fulfill. I am quite phlomixed about this myself. :confused:

Hi Lulav, I keep trying to ascertain whether it is okay for me to post such answers proactively, or if we are more confined here to answering from our position against specific assertions made by the believers, about Judaism, here. I am utterly unfamiliar with this forum, and if it is better I answer by PM (if allowed) then I want to do that. I don't think I can link in a post, either, to an off-site treatment of the subject? It's all but impossible to know where the lines are and what crosses them, though we have more freedom in this forum than I anticipated (it seems anyway).

I can at least tell you, I think, that it's more than one scripture or even *just* the messianic prophecies alone (the real ones) that helped me determine my position.

[Lulav]

Thank you for trying , I too am totally phlomoxed at the strange turn of events, even when I posted this eliminating certain words. I did learn one thing, Judaism is a bad word now in the Messianic forum, I hope what follows next won't be the Jews themselves. :sigh:

I would like to see what it was that helped you to see.....................

[LadyGarnetRose]

Thank you for trying , I too am totally phlomoxed at the strange turn of events, even when I posted this eliminating certain words. I did learn one thing, Judaism is a bad word now in the Messianic forum, I hope what follows next won't be the Jews themselves. :sigh:

I would like to see what it was that helped you to see.....................


Not like we're not used to being kicked out of places...

[GerTzedek]

OBTW, the Jews were quite happy to keep the God of Israel to themselves but God wanted the Kingdom to go out to all the Nations, this is why he sent a a poretz!

Shalom
What a slander this is. At the time of JC, the pharisees were one of the most proselytizing bunch on the planet. During the time of the early church, rabbinical Judaism was its chief competitor for converts. Not only were gentiles becoming Jews, but there were many gentiles who had become "G-d fearers." Acts 15 state that there were synagogues on every street in the world -- hyperbolic, but you get the point!

[GerTzedek]

Not like we're not used to being kicked out of places...
Maybe that's why we always wear our hats.

[GerTzedek]

I did learn one thing, Judaism is a bad word now in the Messianic forum, I hope what follows next won't be the Jews themselves. :sigh:

You are learning a hard lesson to learn. I'm so sorry for the pain it is putting you through. But I can't say I'm sorry that eyes aren't being opened, yours and others.

[GerTzedek]

Okay people, time for the harsh truth.

Judaism missionized gentiles like crazy earlier in history. At one point in time, 10% of the Roman empire were Jews, and it was largely due to converts. And who were these missionaries? For the most part, those known as Pharisees.

Judaism stopped proselytizing when the Christian Church pushed and got civil sanctions against it. It was easier for Jews to develop a culture of "gentiles are welcome to their own religions, and we don't need converts" than to deal with any additional brutalization, imprisonment, torture, and death. You know, above and beyond the usual brutalization, imprisonment, torture and death they got from time to time simply for being Jews.