God loves you the way you are...

[LilLamb219]

I read a thread elsewhere on CF and thought this would be an interesting topic for us to get into.

Does God love us the way we are as a lot of churches preach?

[Melethiel]

I would say that God loves us despite the way we are.

[LutheranChick]

I read a thread elsewhere on CF and thought this would be an interesting topic for us to get into.

Does God love us the way we are as a lot of churches preach?
I agree, this is an interesting topic- and difficult for me to answer.

I mean, I have to say yes, on one hand- that if we have faith in Jesus as our Savior, we have Jesus' intercession- so God sees us as sinless- that is how we 'are' in God's eyes.

Yet- this does not mean that we can go ahead and 'do whatever we please'. We are still sinful and need to live a life of repentance.

But God does love all people- he sent his Son to pay for everyone's sins.

Wow I can have a debate on this all by myself... I don't think I should have started this...:help:

[Zecryphon]

That's a tricky question, because we know from the scriptures that 'God so loved the world that He sent His only Son...' and He loved us first, but we also know from the scriptures that we are born in sin and separated from God. I think the real question that begs to be asked is, 'Does God accept us the way we are'? No He does not. Only when He has saved us through Christ can we be reconciled back to Him and have a relationship with Him.

[LutheranChick]

I would say that God loves us despite the way we are.
Thanks Mel- that's so much better than what I said.

[BabyLutheran]

God loves us no matter what we do, not that he approves of everything we do that is sinful. He never doesn't love us.

[RevCowboy]

I read a thread elsewhere on CF and thought this would be an interesting topic for us to get into.

Does God love us the way we are as a lot of churches preach?

I think of the love that most parents have to their children. They love them unconditionally and completely just the way they are. And its not really because of what the children have done, but because the child belongs to the parent and the parent cannot help but love that which the parent has given life to.

Yet at the same time they wish for so much for their children, and they want everything in their child's life to be better and they are never satisfied.

God's love for us is because He is the one who has given us life... it is not justification to believe that we are okay the way we are.

[cerette]

That's a tricky question, because we know from the scriptures that 'God so loved the world that He sent His only Son...' and He loved us first, but we also know from the scriptures that we are born in sin and separated from God. I think the real question that begs to be asked is, 'Does God accept us the way we are'? No He does not. Only when He has saved us through Christ can we be reconciled back to Him and have a relationship with Him.

I'd say you worded it well there :)
Then again, God can do anything, such as "love the world.." and "hate the sinner" at the same time.

[cerette]

I think of the love that most parents have to their children. They love them unconditionally and completely just the way they are. And its not really because of what the children have done, but because the child belongs to the parent and the parent cannot help but love that which the parent has given life to.

Yet at the same time they wish for so much for their children, and they want everything in their child's life to be better and they are never satisfied.

God's love for us is because He is the one who has given us life... it is not justification to believe that we are okay the way we are.


But sin separates us from God, eventhough God is the one who created us!

[RevCowboy]

But sin separates us from God, eventhough God is the one who created us!

Sin is how human beings turn away from God, it does not cause God to turn from us. Sin displeases God, He wishes that we be would different, but as Paul says "Nothing can separate us from the Love of God."

[DaRev]

But sin separates us from God, even though God is the one who created us!

This is true. But we have to remember that by sinning we are the ones separating ourselves from God. His desire is that all be saved. His love for us transcends our love (or lack thereof) of Him.
As Rev said below:
Sin is how human beings turn away from God, it does not cause God to turn from us. Sin displeases God, He wishes that we be would different, but as Paul says "Nothing can separate us from the Love of God."

[Tofferer]

Yes,God may love us as we are, however, he also expects us to change in response to the love he has shown us through the sacriicial death of his son upon the cross. God loved us enough to send his son to suffer the death we deserve. We should reciprocate that love and seek to honor and obey God.

[DailyBlessings]

Yes. There's no other way to genuinely love a person than as they are, and there is no deceit in God. God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

[Melethiel]

I think of the love that most parents have to their children. They love them unconditionally and completely just the way they are. And its not really because of what the children have done, but because the child belongs to the parent and the parent cannot help but love that which the parent has given life to.

Yet at the same time they wish for so much for their children, and they want everything in their child's life to be better and they are never satisfied.

God's love for us is because He is the one who has given us life... it is not justification to believe that we are okay the way we are.
good post.

[IowaLutheran]

I think the Lutheran concept that we are simultaneously saints and sinners means that yes, God loves us as we are, in one sense. He knows we all sin in our own way, and yet loves us anyway.

Does that give us license to do what we want? No. Our sin does not remove us from his love, but that does not mean that there are not consequences based on our rejection.

[Jim47]

I think the Lutheran concept that we are simultaneously saints and sinners means that yes, God loves us as we are, in one sense. He knows we all sin in our own way, and yet loves us anyway.

Does that give us license to do what we want? No. Our sin does not remove us from his love, but that does not mean that there are not consequences based on our rejection.


Exactly!

Where the danger lies in is when we reject what He has clearly told us in His word and think that is wrong. At that point our faith is attacked by Satan and he further tries to tell us that many other things God has told us not really true. He used this same tatic on Eve and the whole world fell into sin.

When we believe in a trust everything The Lord has told us in His word then we have evidence of The Holy Spirit controlling our lives, and if not, then Satan is in controll, in spite of him telling us that we are doing right. :cry: We have then become decieved :help:


Eph 4:17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.
Eph 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
Eph 4:19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
Eph 4:20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way.
Eph 4:21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.
Eph 4:22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
Eph 4:23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds;
Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Eph 4:25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
Eph 4:26 "In your anger do not sin" : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
Eph 4:27 and do not give the devil a foothold.
Eph 4:28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
Eph 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.
Eph 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Eph 5:1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children
Eph 5:2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Eph 5:3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
Eph 5:4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
Eph 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
Eph 5:7 Therefore do not be partners with them.
Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
Eph 5:9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)
Eph 5:10 and find out what pleases the Lord.
Eph 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Eph 5:12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
Eph 5:13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible,
Eph 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
Eph 5:15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise,
Eph 5:16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.
Eph 5:18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.
Eph 5:19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
Eph 5:20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 5:21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

[Edial]

I read a thread elsewhere on CF and thought this would be an interesting topic for us to get into.

Does God love us the way we are as a lot of churches preach?
There is an interesting separation in the Scriptures - before the Cross and after.

In the OT there are many instances where we see that God hates the wicked. It appears that somehow a sin and a person were one, inseparable.

After the Cross there is not one instance that I am aware of where it states that God hates or abhors people.
(I had long debates on that with Calvinists).

On the contrary, God expects us to love our enemies, since He loves them too. (Mt. 5:43-48, especially 48).

When Christ paid for the sin(s) of the world he appears to have separated sin from an individual.

I also see 3 types of people in the NT.

God's children through Christ.
Enemies.
And the rest.

God's children enjoy the closest and the most jealous protective love that God gives us. (That's why we trust that even when bad things happen to us it is for our own good. It is not a punishment, but a discipline that brings out the unexpected good in us and develops character).

God's enemies enjoy a different dergee of love. They enjoy God's impartiality (Mt. 5:43-48) and grace when they expect it the least (Rom. 12:20-21). This is effective for sudden conversions.

The rest enjoy a lifetime of drawing by God towards Himself. (Jn. 12-32).

And of course, as many here have said, it is us who refuse God's love.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[cerette]

This is true. But we have to remember that by sinning we are the ones separating ourselves from God. His desire is that all be saved. His love for us transcends our love (or lack thereof) of Him.
As Rev said below:

Would you say that Original Sin doesn't separate us from God? Or would you say that we have sinned original sin onto ourselves?

[DaRev]

Would you say that Original Sin doesn't separate us from God? Or would you say that we have sinned original sin onto ourselves?

Our sinful nature certainly separates us from God, but God Himself transcends that by His grace with the gift of faith. This is made manifest in baptism. The actual sin that we commit also separates us from God, but He again transcends that by His grace through the work of the Holy Spirit who works contrition and repentance in us. It's when we reject His grace, when we resist the work of the Spirit that we separate ourselves from God. But His love for us is eternal. He continues to work on us, even through our own resistance.

[mirla]

God loves you the way you are.
God loves you the way you aren't.
God loves you the way you were.
God loves you the way you will be.
God loves you the way you pray.
God loves you the way you swear.
God loves you the way you worship.
God loves you the way you sin.
God loves you if you sing his praises from the highest rooftop.
God loves you if you don't even know His name.
God loves you.
God hates many of the things you do, but
God loves you.

Now if you were asking if God loves the way you are, the answer would be completely different.

[Lupinus]

Just as a parent with a defiant child, of course God loves us. He may not approve of our every action, but of course he still loves us.

[Edial]

...

Now if you were asking if God loves the way you are, the answer would be completely different.
:D:D:).

Interesting way of putting it. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Nadiine]

I read verses that said God hated certain people in the OT???

Psalm 11:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=11&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked
and those who love violence his soul hates.

1) to hate, be hateful
a) (Qal) to hate
1) of man
2) of God
3) hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)
b) (Niphal) to be hated
c) (Piel) hater (participle)
1) of persons, nations, God, wisdom

Psalm 139:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=139&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?

Hosea 9:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=35&chapter=9&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
"Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious.

I haven't done a full study on the meaning of hate in the OT, but I have heard that it means to "love less" also? (ie. Jacob I loved, Essau I hated).
Not sure, but Hosea sounds interesting

[Edial]

I read verses that said God hated certain people in the OT???

Psalm 11:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=11&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked
and those who love violence his soul hates.

1) to hate, be hateful
a) (Qal) to hate
1) of man
2) of God
3) hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)
b) (Niphal) to be hated
c) (Piel) hater (participle)
1) of persons, nations, God, wisdom

Psalm 139:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=139&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?

Hosea 9:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=35&chapter=9&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
"Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious.

I haven't done a full study on the meaning of hate in the OT, but I have heard that it means to "love less" also? (ie. Jacob I loved, Essau I hated).
Not sure, but Hosea sounds interesting
Hate means hate.

In my other post here I mentioned that God definitely hated the wicked prior to the Cross.
After the Cross God loves all people, even the enemies.

There is not one verse that I am aware of in the NT (and I researched it) that presents God hates people.

After Christ paid for the sin of the world, I guess things changed. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Nadiine]

Hate means hate.

In my other post here I mentioned that God definitely hated the wicked prior to the Cross.
After the Cross God loves all people, even the enemies.

There is not one verse that I am aware of in the NT (and I researched it) that presents God hates people.

After Christ paid for the sin of the world, I guess things changed. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed
Hmm, that's an interesting view I had never heard before.

K,... so I would ask this, how does that mesh with "I the Lord do not change"?
I know God changed METHODS and MEANS of accomplishing His will, but your view seems to go against His very attributes and being.

Christ died for us while we were in sin/ love drove Him to the cross - while we were His enemies.
I'll put some more thought into this - I'm not done yet. lol
=)~

[Edial]

Hmm, that's an interesting view I had never heard before.

K,... so I would ask this, how does that mesh with "I the Lord do not change"?
I know God changed METHODS and MEANS of accomplishing His will, but your view seems to go against His very attributes and being.

Christ died for us while we were in sin/ love drove Him to the cross - while we were His enemies.
I'll put some more thought into this - I'm not done yet. lol
=)~
Against attributes and being? Not at all.
It is consistent with both.

Attributes of God:
http://www.allaboutgod.com/attributes-of-god.htm

Wisdom: “Wisdom is the ability to devise perfect ends and to achieve these ends by the most perfect means.” In other words, God makes no mistakes. He is the Father who truly knows best, as Paul explains in Romans 11:33: “Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand His decisions and His ways!”

Infinitude: God knows no boundaries. He is without measure. This attribute by definition impacts all of the others. Since God is infinite, everything else about Him must also be infinite.

Sovereignty: This is “the attribute by which He rules His entire creation.” It is the application of His other attributes of being all-knowing and all-powerful. It makes Him absolutely free to do what He knows to be best. God is in control of everything that happens. Man still has a free will, and is responsible for his choices in life.

Holiness: This is the attribute that sets God apart from all other created beings. It refers to His majesty and His perfect moral purity. There is absolutely no sin or evil thought in God at all. His holiness is the definition of that which is pure and righteous in all the universe. Wherever God has appeared, such as to Moses at the burning bush, that place becomes holy just for God having been there.

Trinity: Though the actual word is not used in the Bible, the truth of God revealing Himself in three persons is included. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all called God, given worship as God, exist eternally, and are involved in doing things only God could do. Although, God reveals Himself in three persons, God is One and cannot be divided. All are involved completely whenever One of the Three is active.

Omniscience: “God possesses perfect knowledge and therefore has no need to learn. God has never learned and cannot learn.” Omniscience means all-knowing. God knows everything, and His knowledge is infinite. It is impossible to hide anything from God.

Faithfulness: Everything that God has promised will come to pass. His faithfulness guarantees this fact. He does not lie. What He has said in the Bible about Himself is true. Jesus even said that He is the Truth. This is extremely important for the followers of Jesus because it is on His faithfulness that our hope of eternal life rests. He will honor His promise that our sins will be forgiven and that we will live forever with Him.

Love: Love is such an important part of God’s character that the apostle John wrote, “God is love.” This means that God holds the well-being of others as His primary concern. For a full definition of love, read 1 Corinthians 13 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/1-corinthians-13.htm). To see love in action, study the life of Jesus. His sacrifice on the cross for the sins of others is the ultimate act of love. God’s love is not a love of emotion but of action. His love gives freely to the object of its affection, those who choose to follow His son Jesus.

Omnipotence: Literally this word means all-powerful. Since God is infinite and since He possesses power, He possesses infinite power. He does allow His creatures to have some power, but this in no way diminishes His own. “He expends no energy that must be replenished.” When the Bible says God rested on the seventh day, it was to set an example for us and our need for rest, not because He was tired.

Self-existence: When Moses asked who he was talking to in the burning bush, God said, “I AM THE ONE WHO ALWAYS IS.” God has no beginning or end. He just exists. Nothing else in all the universe is self-caused. Only God. In fact, if anything else had created Him, that thing would be God. This is a difficult concept for our minds since everything else we will ever encounter comes from something other than itself. The Bible says, “In the beginning, God.” He was already there.

Self-sufficiency: The Bible says that God has life in Himself (see John 5:26 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-5.htm#26)). All other life in the universe is a gift from God. He has no needs and there is no way He can improve. To God, nothing else is necessary. He does not need our help with anything, but because of His grace and love, He allows us to be a part of advancing His plan on earth and being a blessing to others. We are the ones who change, but never God. He is self-sufficient.

Justice: The Bible says that God is just, but it is His character that defines what being just really is. He does not conform to some outside criteria. Being just brings moral equity to everyone. When there are evil acts, justice demands there be a penalty. Since God is perfect and has never done evil, no penalty would ever be necessary; however, because of His love, God paid the penalty for our evil deeds by going to the cross Himself. His justice needed to be satisfied, but He took care of it for all who will believe in Jesus.

Immutability: This simply means that God never changes. It is why the Bible says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”

Mercy: “Mercy is the attribute of God which disposes Him to be actively compassionate.” Since God’s justice is satisfied in Jesus, He is free to show mercy to all those who have chosen to follow Him. It will never end since it is a part of God’s nature. Mercy is the way He desires to relate to mankind, and He does so unless the person chooses to despise or ignore God at which time His justice becomes the prominent attribute.

Eternal: In some ways, this fact about God is similar to His self-existence. God always has been and will forever be, because God dwells in eternity. Time is His creation. It is why God can see the end from the beginning, and why He is never surprised by anything. If He were not eternal, God’s promise of eternal life for those who follow Jesus would have little value.

Goodness: “The goodness of God is that which disposes Him to be kind, cordial, benevolent, and full of good will toward men.” This attribute of God is why He bestows all the blessing He does on His followers. God’s actions define what goodness is, and we can easily see it in the way Jesus related to the people around Him.

Gracious: God enjoys giving great gifts to those who love Him, even when they do not deserve it. Grace is the way we describe that inclination. Jesus Christ is the channel through which His grace moves. The Bible says, “The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

Omnipresence: This theological term means “always present.” Since God is infinite, His being knows no boundaries. So, clearly He is everywhere. This truth is taught throughout the Bible as the phrase “I am with you always” is repeated 22 times in both the Old and New Testaments. These were even Jesus’ words of assurance just after giving the challenge to His disciples to take His message to the entire world. This is certainly a comforting truth for all who follow Jesus.

............

The Immutability attribute is what some people might refer to in order to state that God must continue hating individuals.
And they refer to this verse - "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever".
Yet, the Immutability attribute never changed.
God's approach towards us changed due to Christ's death on the Cross who died also for the wicked.
His attitude changed, not the attribute.
God's another attribute confirms this - God is love.

Let's not fiorget that due to God's love, (not hate, but love) which was displayed through Christ's death on the Cross, the wicked can also turn into the righteous.

1CO 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

God promised salvation all the way from the Garden of Eden.

And what about God hating people in the OT?

The sin and people were somehow "one" in the OT. God's attribute of Holiness demands hatred of sin.

Christ death on the Cross however, His payment for the sin of the world somehow appears to have succeeded in separating sin from the sinner. So, God's attribute of Love is being applied here.
Basically, love the sinner and hate the sin.

God accomplished the entire salvation.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Jim47]

While it is true that God loved this sinful world so that He sacrificed His one and only Son to redeem the world, I think it is wrong to say that God loves sinners. God is Holy, and His very nature is against all those who delight in sin. Those who have rejected His Son as their Savior have rejected God's love and promise of paradise.


Mt 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
Mt 11:21 "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mt 11:22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Mt 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
Mt 11:24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you



Deu 31:14 The LORD said to Moses, "Now the day of your death is near. Call Joshua and present yourselves at the Tent of Meeting, where I will commission him." So Moses and Joshua came and presented themselves at the Tent of Meeting.
Deu 31:15 Then the LORD appeared at the Tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the Tent.
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them.
Deu 31:17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?'
Deu 31:18 And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.
Deu 31:19 "Now write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them.
Deu 31:20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their forefathers, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant.
Deu 31:21 And when many disasters and difficulties come upon them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath."
Deu 31:22 So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
Deu 31:23 The LORD gave this command to Joshua son of Nun: "Be strong and courageous, for you will bring the Israelites into the land I promised them on oath, and I myself will be with you."
Deu 31:24 After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end,
Deu 31:25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD :
Deu 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
Deu 31:27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die!
Deu 31:28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them.
Deu 31:29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made



Rev 2:4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate

[Nadiine]

While it is true that God loved this sinful world so that He sacrificed His one and only Son to redeem the world, I think it is wrong to say that God loves sinners. God is Holy, and His very nature is against all those who delight in sin. Those who have rejected His Son as their Savior have rejected God's love and promise of paradise.

I was surprised to see you post this - I didn't expect it at all. But I think it holds merit.

I do have a hard time imagining that God hated then loved sinners when covenants changed. (altho until further study it does have some merit).
Dying for a lost world would show me He was dying for sinners during His "hatred period". I think that God holds a general love for us all as we're all His creation; made in His image.
He causes rain to fall on the lost & saved, He blesses the lost & saved with good things.. etc.

That brings me to ask, could God's people also "Hate" heathens in the OT? Was it wrong not to love the lost?

[Edial]

While it is true that God loved this sinful world so that He sacrificed His one and only Son to redeem the world, I think it is wrong to say that God loves sinners. God is Holy, and His very nature is against all those who delight in sin. Those who have rejected His Son as their Savior have rejected God's love and promise of paradise.


Mt 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
Mt 11:21 "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mt 11:22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Mt 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
Mt 11:24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you



Deu 31:14 The LORD said to Moses, "Now the day of your death is near. Call Joshua and present yourselves at the Tent of Meeting, where I will commission him." So Moses and Joshua came and presented themselves at the Tent of Meeting.
Deu 31:15 Then the LORD appeared at the Tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the Tent.
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them.
Deu 31:17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?'
Deu 31:18 And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.
Deu 31:19 "Now write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them.
Deu 31:20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their forefathers, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant.
Deu 31:21 And when many disasters and difficulties come upon them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath."
Deu 31:22 So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
Deu 31:23 The LORD gave this command to Joshua son of Nun: "Be strong and courageous, for you will bring the Israelites into the land I promised them on oath, and I myself will be with you."
Deu 31:24 After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end,
Deu 31:25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD :
Deu 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
Deu 31:27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die!
Deu 31:28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them.
Deu 31:29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made



Rev 2:4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate
Yes. God's nature demands hating sin.
Yet Christ's death for the world separated sin from a sinner.
Christ died for sin of the world and the world was justified in the eyes of God.

You will also notice a strange absence of statements in the NT where God hates people.

And you do see an abundance of statements that God loves all.
He even asks us to be like Him (v.48) in loving the enemies.

MT 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor n and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemiesand pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Concerning the woes, we see the unrepentant sinners where the woe has a meaning of unconditional judgement against them ... in the future.

Concerning the Deuteronomy text where the disobedience of the Jews was prophecied, we still see in the NT that Christ loved Jerusalem.

MT 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

Also, concerning Judas Iscariot (whom Christ called the devil) we do not see even a hint in the NT that Christ hated Judas.
He was disappointed in him, true, yet He certainly loved Him.

And if Christ loved Judas, so did His Father.
They are one.

JN 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Much changed after the Cross.

1CO 13:8 Love never fails.

RO 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I covered some more points to Nadiine concerning this.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Edial]

I was surprised to see you post this - I didn't expect it at all. But I think it holds merit.

I do have a hard time imagining that God hated then loved sinners when covenants changed. (altho until further study it does have some merit).
Dying for a lost world would show me He was dying for sinners during His "hatred period". I think that God holds a general love for us all as we're all His creation; made in His image.
He causes rain to fall on the lost & saved, He blesses the lost & saved with good things.. etc.

That brings me to ask, could God's people also "Hate" heathens in the OT? Was it wrong not to love the lost?
We have no reason to hate people of the OT. We weren't there.
Yet, David did hate them and it was OK.
Remember the verses where David was asking God to break their teeth?

We are told to love our current enemies.
And that love, of course is displayed not by start hugging them (just try hugging Osama bin Laden :)), but by showing them impartiality when they happen to fall under our jurisdiction - feed them when they are hungry and so forth.

You see, once we start showing love to enemies, God Himself will make certain that this love will bear some fruit.
Sovereignty of God demands that we do things according to His will.

Love in itself does not accomplish much. (Just ask any hippie or a New Ager :)),
Yet when love is expressed according to God's will, much is accomplished.

Much changed after the Cross. It really amazes me. :)
Christ's death accomplished a lot more than we could possibly imagine.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Nadiine]

We have no reason to hate people of the OT. We weren't there.
Yet, David did hate them and it was OK.
Remember the verses where David was asking God to break their teeth?


Let me clarify here that I was in NO WAY 'hating' David of the OT. or any others.
I don't use any parts of the bible to "attack" God or Christian principles.
I was asking if their hatred was warrented in relation to your view of God's hatred of the wicked in the OT.

[Edial]

Let me clarify here that I was in NO WAY 'hating' David of the OT. or any others.
I don't use any parts of the bible to "attack" God or Christian principles.
I was asking if their hatred was warrented in relation to your view of God's hatred of the wicked in the OT.
I did not mean to imply you were saying hating David.
I meant you were saying is it OK for us to hate the heathens in the OT.

I presented that David was hating them. And it was OK.

Yet for us, it is not applicable, since we were not there and these heathens did nothing wrong to us personally.
They are not our enemies. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Nadiine]

I did not mean to imply you were saying hating David.
I meant you were saying is it OK for us to hate the heathens in the OT.

I presented that David was hating them. And it was OK.

Yet for us, it is not applicable, since we were not there and these heathens did nothing wrong to us personally.
They are not our enemies. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed
K, no, I wasn't meaning that either LOL =)~

I was asking if it was 'right' for the OT Israelites (God's people) to hate the pagan/lost in the OT.
But your comment on David there answers my Q.
=)

[LutheranMafia]

God is wrathful and most definitely does hate evil.