Is there enough Messianics here?...

[visionary]

I will be more than willing if there is enough members aka at least 20 to ask through the Recommend New Forums procedure, and the numbers of members who would support and participate in such a forum.

I believe there may be more freedom in this area of the forum for the more orthodox messianic members looking for a home where they can invite their jewish friends to come and fellowship.

Please tell me if you are interested and wanted to be named as a member. Please also indicate how you would like this "new forum" to operate... aka rules to live by.

We can always invite the trinitarian messianics to come post here too.

Just an idea.

[Torah613]

I could be interested, depending on what everyone comes up with.

Yochanan

[visionary]

If we can get all of our friends to come post here, it may turn out to be a better place to gather than where we do now.

[GerTzedek]

I have always supported a Messianic Judaism forum being in this area of the board. I did so before my change of religion, and I do so now. This is where it belongs.

I do not support the entire group of moderators remaining the same. Most of the list of moderators from the old forum basically support a Nicene version, and are suited to the forum in the old area. They were part of the problem. Not all of the old mods belong here as mods in the new forum.

My less than two cents worth? Let the old forum evolve into a Hebrew Christian forum. Allow this forum to become the sort that allows for the open discussion of Torah and Talmud and oral law and rabbinical liturature and halakhah that MJ's and rabbinical Jews want.

[Wags]

Sounds like an interesting proposition.

[HaReb]

Go for it - we got nothing to lose by trying!

[ChazakEmunah]

Ya got my support.

[ShirChadash]

I have always supported a Messianic Judaism forum being in this area of the board. I did so before my change of religion, and I do so now. This is where it belongs.

I do not support the entire group of moderators remaining the same. Most of the list of moderators from the old forum basically support a Nicene version, and are suited to the forum in the old area. They were part of the problem. Not all of the old mods belong here as mods in the new forum.

My less than two cents worth? Let the old forum evolve into a Hebrew Christian forum. Allow this forum to become the sort that allows for the open discussion of Torah and Talmud and oral law and rabbinical liturature and halakhah that MJ's and rabbinical Jews want.

I agree very much with GerTzedek, and I would support it. I, too, supported moving the forum into this area when I was a messianic, personally.

I also would not want to see all of the mods from the Messianic section moderate in such a forum as you are discussing creating... in fact, I think a new forum would just become much the same as the other, if all of the same moderators were to moderate in a new forum.

[ChavaK]

Sure, I'll support it too.....if it can
truly be a forum where all may
interact and discuss freely.
The only regs I personally
would put in is no disrespectful
comments on another's beliefs;
no flaming of people; no attacking
Israel; no anti-semitic comments.
Other than that, I am all for open
discussions.

[Torah613]

I agree 101% with Chava's suggestions.

Yochanan

[Talmidah]

Me too

[ChavaK]

I also would not want to see all of the mods from the Messianic section moderate in such a forum as you are discussing creating.

I agree....time to start with fresh views and mods.
Hopefully in the new forum we won't even need mods....
that discussions will be such that they will be like the
Maytag repair man....sitting around with nothing to do, LOL.

[LadyGarnetRose]

I also agree with Chava.

If we can have a space such as described by the other posters, I would give it a try.

[GerTzedek]

Vis, I know peeps are contacting you via PM as well. How we doin'?
Public roll call thus far:

visionary
JosephtheKansan
GerTzedek
Wags
HaReb
ChazakEmunah
ShirChadash
ChavaK
Talmidah

[GerTzedek]

Let me email a few of the Messianics who visited the old forum but didn't stick around because it was too Christian and gentile. They may be interested.

[ChavaK]

Vis, I know peeps are contacting you via PM as well. How we doin'?
Public roll call thus far:

visionary
JosephtheKansan
GerTzedek
Wags
HaReb
ChazakEmunah
ShirChadash
ChavaK
Talmidah



10. LadyGarnetRose

Half way there!

[visionary]

Sure, I'll support it too.....if it can
truly be a forum where all may
interact and discuss freely.
The only regs I personally
would put in is no disrespectful
comments on another's beliefs;
no flaming of people; no attacking
Israel; no anti-semitic comments.
Other than that, I am all for open
discussions.That is basically my idea... doesn't mean that you cna't continue posting where you all have, just means that if there is a subject that you feel you would like to discuss but feel limited by the rulings that there is a place to take it for further insights.

[visionary]

PLease do contact as many as you know that use to come and left because of the restrictions and hassles.... the more we can get to join up the more chances we hae of having out own corner.

[GerTzedek]

A question about the name of the new forum. Is the old forum willing to allow the new forum to use the "Messianic Judaism" title?

Alternative idea:
We could use a DESCRIPTOR like
DIALOGUE between Messianic Judaism and Rabbinical Judaism
A title like that would immediately bring clarity to the boundaries and eliminate censorship of discussions of, i.e. the Talmud, rabbinical literature, etc., as well as stopping false accusations of promotion of Judaism, etc.

Just brainstorming...

[ChavaK]

A question about the name of the new forum. Is the old forum willing to allow the new forum to use the "Messianic Judaism" title?

Alternative idea:
We could use a DESCRIPTOR like
DIALOGUE between Messianic Judaism and Rabbinical Judaism
A title like that would immediately bring clarity to the boundaries and eliminate censorship of discussions of, i.e. the Talmud, rabbinical literature, etc., as well as stopping false accusations of promotion of Judaism, etc.

Just brainstorming...

Several of us (Jews) have talked about this....and we are trying
to be sensitive and not be offensive....but we are much more
comfortable calling it a Messianic forum- not a Messianic Judaism
forum. I am sure you can understand why.

We would like to see if we can brainstorm and come up with some
kind of neutral title that pleases everyone and offends no one....
*thinking cap on*
:wave:

[visionary]

A question about the name of the new forum. Is the old forum willing to allow the new forum to use the "Messianic Judaism" title?

Alternative idea:
We could use a DESCRIPTOR like
DIALOGUE between Messianic Judaism and Rabbinical Judaism
A title like that would immediately bring clarity to the boundaries and eliminate censorship of discussions of, i.e. the Talmud, rabbinical literature, etc., as well as stopping false accusations of promotion of Judaism, etc.

Just brainstorming...I like your idea...

short but sweet.. maybe this

Dialogue between Judaism and Messianics.... or better yet

Fellowship between Judiasm and Messianics

[Talmidah]

I like your idea...

short but sweet.. maybe this

Dialogue between Judaism and Messianics.... or better yet

Fellowship between Judaism and Messianics :thumbsup:

Shabbat shalom everyone, see you tomorrow night! :wave:

[Torah613]

good ideas Vis and Ger (and Chava).

I agree with Talmidah, Gut Shabbos all, and I'll see you tomorrow night.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

I
Fellowship between Judiasm and Messianics

A winner! Although the English is off a bit...

how about

The Messianic/Jewish Fellowship Forum

[visionary]

A winner! Although the English is off a bit...

how about

The Messianic/Jewish Fellowship ForumThat will work.
:thumbsup:

[zaksmummy]

I'm in

Catrin xx

[visionary]

A winner! Although the English is off a bit...

how about

The Messianic/Jewish Fellowship ForumI have been re-thinking this and I do want it to be very clear this is the place to discuss Judaism... as Messianic and as Jews.

Maybe we should name it "The Messianic/Jewish Judaism Fellowship Forum." I think that stressing the Judaism part is important to what we are all about.

[Kris10leigh]

If you are talking about a place where we can REALLY discuss Judaism and non-trinitarianism AND trinitarianism too, then sure! I'm all for it! I'm tired of tip-toeing around very important topics in our faith.

Sounds great to me!

[Henaynei]

I'm in.

[Kris10leigh]

Weird. My post ended up on the third page when I posted it on the first page. Snafoo with the time stamp again?

Anyway, I didn't appear on the list you guys made, so I thought I'd put my $.2 in again. I'm in!

[visionary]

visionary
JosephtheKansan
GerTzedek
Wags
HaReb
ChazakEmunah
ShirChadash
ChavaK
Talmidah
Kris10leigh
Henny
zaksmummy
Torah613
Wags
HaReb
LadyGarnetRose
simchat torah
HadassahSukkot
Steve Petersen


Did I miss anyone?

[simchat_torah]

I am interested and offer my support.

[simchat_torah]

Sorry for the late response. Things have been crazy for me lately.

-J

[Steve Petersen]

Let's give it a whirl. (Drops backpack, sets walking stick by door, orders a pint, and settles into a nice seat by the fireplace.)

[visionary]

visionary
JosephtheKansan
GerTzedek
Wags
HaReb
ChazakEmunah
ShirChadash
ChavaK
Talmidah
Kris10leigh
Henny
zaksmummy
Torah613
Wags
HaReb
LadyGarnetRose
simchat torah
HadassahSukkot
Steve Petersen


Did I miss anyone?

[A_Pioneer]

The title is a turn-off since we are Orthodox.
But, add me to it.

[ChavaK]

The title is a turn-off since we are Orthodox.



Which title is that?
:wave:

[visionary]

The title is a turn-off since we are Orthodox.
But, add me to it.Sorry that you don't like my title for the thread but hopefully you like the effort and purpose.

visionary
JosephtheKansan
GerTzedek
Wags
HaReb
ChazakEmunah
ShirChadash
ChavaK
Talmidah
Kris10leigh
Henny
zaksmummy
Torah613
Wags
HaReb
LadyGarnetRose
simchat torah
HadassahSukkot
Steve Petersen
A Pioneer


Waiting to get a response from the new forum organizers on our request.

[Talmidah]

The " Fellowship between Jews and Messianics" one?

[visionary]

The " Fellowship between Jews and Messianics" one?Yeah, can you help us with that?

[Talmidah]

Yeah, can you help us with that? I thought that was a fine title, vis. Quite to the point. :)

[ChavaK]

I thought that was a fine title, vis. Quite to the point. :)

Me too....a simple title that says it all...

[kivi]

It is important that Christian and Jew have a place to interact, in fellowship and respect without fear of reprisal. There is currently no place in this format that allows that. In one important respect, Judaism is all about boundaries: what is and is not. The only way to test such boundariss is to allow a free dialog of ideas, hopes and aspirations. Are we so fearful of open discussion, disagreement and debate that we would destroy the possiblity of commonality. We have lived together for the last 2000 years, badly. Continuing the same old, same old will not give us a different outcome. I fully support ChavaK suggestions.

[Kris10leigh]

It is important that Christian and Jew have a place to interact, in fellowship and respect without fear of reprisal. There is currently no place in this format that allows that. In one important respect, Judaism is all about boundaries: what is and is not. The only way to test such boundariss is to allow a free dialog of ideas, hopes and aspirations. Are we so fearful of open discussion, disagreement and debate that we would destroy the possiblity of commonality. We have lived together for the last 2000 years, badly. Continuing the same old, same old will not give us a different outcome. I fully support ChavaK suggestions.
:thumbsup: I understand no other mindset. :thumbsup:

[kivi]

That will work.
:thumbsup:
Excellent potential title:clap:

[kivi]

visionary
JosephtheKansan
GerTzedek
Wags
HaReb
ChazakEmunah
ShirChadash
ChavaK
Talmidah
Kris10leigh
Henny
zaksmummy
Torah613
Wags
HaReb
LadyGarnetRose
simchat torah
HadassahSukkot
Steve Petersen

Did I miss anyone?

yes, kivi wants to pl:Dy

[ChavaK]

yes, kivi wants to pl:Dy

All right!!! Kivi makes 20!

[johnd]

I'm in!
UPDATE...

Not so fast!

I'm not in (until I know fully what this is about)! (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47120019&posted=1#post47120019)

This link is about peculiar activities that recently came to light and the fact that the MJ debate area is already provided as much leeway as a non-belligerent, non-counter missionary activity should need Jewish or otherwise.

So I'm out at least until answers are given to these points.

[visionary]

visionary
JosephtheKansan
GerTzedek
Wags
HaReb
ChazakEmunah
ShirChadash
ChavaK
Talmidah
Kris10leigh
Henny
zaksmummy
Torah613
Wags
HaReb
LadyGarnetRose
simchat torah
HadassahSukkot
Steve Petersen
A Pioneer
kivi
Johnd


Waiting to get a response from the new forum organizers on our request. Thanks everyone for signing up. :clap: we did it. Hopefully we will have a forum that allows the greater freedom for fellowshipping between us.

[Bananna]

Tal thanks for the link here.

Also comment in my thread.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47119150#post47119150

Some threads are already moved here.

I saw a comment from one Jewish poster that expressed a disinterest in being in another area with other topics not MJ. Not sure if he knows this thread is here yet.

Do we want one under unitarian?

I was thinking more of subforums that lead from MJ to other locations and from those locations back to MJ. The Mainstream have always had free reign. Some of the People in the Hebrew roots movement will want to stay in the Christian/ or faith area I'm sure.

Is it possible to be two places at once with our community and still cohesive?

Thanks for working on this vis
bananna

Is Unorthodox going to be free enough for open discussions?

Bananna

[johnd]

visionary
JosephtheKansan
GerTzedek
Wags
HaReb
ChazakEmunah
ShirChadash
ChavaK
Talmidah
Kris10leigh
Henny
zaksmummy
Torah613
Wags
HaReb
LadyGarnetRose
simchat torah
HadassahSukkot
Steve Petersen
A Pioneer
kivi
Johnd

Hold the phone!!!! See my post, cause it changed....

[visionary]

I do not know where Banana comes up with unitarian.

Take a look above and see where this thread is.

Christian Forums > Theology > Theology > Unorthodox Theology > Fellowship
Is there enough Messianics here?...

[Kris10leigh]

Vis, I think it's because unitarians are thrown here as well. It seems to be a place for misfits.

But as I said in the other thread, I don't care where it is as long as we have a place where are safe to discuss whatever is legitimately on our minds. MJism is so wide and differing, it's very difficult to muffle individuals.

[ShirChadash]

I think this community is VERY fast unravelling.

Tal thanks for the link here.

Also comment in my thread.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47119150#post47119150

Some threads are already moved here.

I saw a comment from one Jewish poster that expressed a disinterest in being in another area with other topics not MJ. Not sure if he knows this thread is here yet.

Do we want one under unitarian?

I was thinking more of subforums that lead from MJ to other locations and from those locations back to MJ. The Mainstream have always had free reign. Some of the People in the Hebrew roots movement will want to stay in the Christian/ or faith area I'm sure.

Is it possible to be two places at once with our community and still cohesive?

Thanks for working on this vis
bananna

Is Unorthodox going to be free enough for open discussions?

Bananna

[Talmidah]

I think this community is VERY fast unravelling. Sadly, it appears so. :sigh:

[Torah613]

Indeed so.

Vis, I noticed you had me on the list twice. My username has changed and thus JosephtheKansan of old and Torah613 are the same person.

Yochanan

[visionary]

Indeed so.

Vis, I noticed you had me on the list twice. My username has changed and thus JosephtheKansan of old and Torah613 are the same person.

YochananOoops... sorry I didn't know.

[visionary]

Sadly, it appears so. :sigh:
Nahhh... think of it as birth pangs... everything and everyone gets a little anxious just before the birth ... all wondering what is going to come of this.

[Torah613]

I'm in!
UPDATE...

Not so fast!

I'm not in (until I know fully what this is about)! (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47120019&posted=1#post47120019)

This link is about peculiar activities that recently came to light and the fact that the MJ debate area is already provided as much leeway as a non-belligerent, non-counter missionary activity should need Jewish or otherwise.

So I'm out at least until answers are given to these points.

Umm dude, the MJdebate subforum is about as open to rabbinic Jews answering questions about rabbinic Judaism as a RC seminary is to women. Seriously, it was there that a certain poster was accused of flaming for using a hebrew word fairly recently.

Yochanan

[Henaynei]

patience and prayer prevail

[Talmidah]

Umm dude, the MJdebate subforum is about as open to rabbinic Jews answering questions about rabbinic Judaism as a RC seminary is to women. Seriously, it was there that a certain poster was accused of flaming for using a hebrew word fairly recently.

YochananNot to mention that we can get into trouble for merely mentioning that a gentile is a gentile.

[ChazakEmunah]

Not to mention that we can get into trouble for merely mentioning that a gentile is a gentile.
Oh my... c'v.... ;)

[Torah613]

Yeah lets not forget that according to the def there, everyone is a Jew--except for people who wear Kippahot and Tzitzis.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I should make that more egalitarian for Talmidah and Chava's sake. So the apparent def excludes people who know the bracha for taking challah by heart and wear wigs for every occasion. ;)

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

I'm in!
UPDATE...

Not so fast!

I'm not in (until I know fully what this is about)! (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47120019&posted=1#post47120019)

This link is about peculiar activities that recently came to light and the fact that the MJ debate area is already provided as much leeway as a non-belligerent, non-counter missionary activity should need Jewish or otherwise.

So I'm out at least until answers are given to these points.

John, Jews cannot freely discuss Judaism in the Messisanic debate
section. Our posts have been deleted and we have received warnings.
That is what this new forum-which is not replacing the Messianic forum-
is all about. Open discussion, with less restrictive rules than the
Messianic forum currently has.
In otherwords, it is a return to what the Messianic forum used to be.

[debi b]

Hello!

[Steve Petersen]

Umm dude, the MJdebate subforum is about as open to rabbinic Jews answering questions about rabbinic Judaism as a RC seminary is to women. Seriously, it was there that a certain poster was accused of flaming for using a hebrew word fairly recently.

Yochanan


I think I have an idea how this particular situation happened. Someone, with a little familiarity of Hebrew confused the words 'neshama' (soul) and 'meshumed' (traitor).

Plausible?

[Talmidah]

Hey debi!!!! How have you been? Its good to see you! :hug:

[visionary]

Once all the mods are straightened on on the issue of who is a jew, I think or should I say I believe.. it will revert very quickly back to the way it was before.

[Torah613]

I think I have an idea how this particular situation happened. Someone, with a little familiarity of Hebrew confused the words 'neshama' (soul) and 'meshumed' (traitor).

Plausible?

not sure what happened exactly, but it is a bit ridonculous.

Yochanan

[visionary]

I think I have an idea how this particular situation happened. Someone, with a little familiarity of Hebrew confused the words 'neshama' (soul) and 'meshumed' (traitor).

Plausible?Hey, there is a learning curve needed on Hebrew words... and a little forgiveness necessary during that period... Forgive us for our errors.

[Steve Petersen]

not sure what happened exactly, but it is a bit ridonculous.

Yochanan

"That's 'nucular' Lisa." - Homer Simpson

[Talmidah]

Hey, there is a learning curve needed on Hebrew words... and a little forgiveness necessary during that period... Forgive us for our errors. True. I'm actually hoping that incident serves as a learning experience. I'm sure in the future, instead of assuming that when a Jew uses an unfamiliar Hebrew word, the person will be asked what the word means before deleting the post and sending a warning to the person. :thumbsup:

[ChavaK]

Hello!

Hey Deb!
Great to see you.
How's it going?

[arborvita]

Okay I am subscribing to this thread and will be happy to answer questions that you all may have.

Thank You,

Arborvita
Site Advisor

[Bananna]

I do not know where Banana comes up with unitarian.

Take a look above and see where this thread is.

Christian Forums > Theology > Theology > Unorthodox Theology > Fellowship
Is there enough Messianics here?...
Sorry my mistake. I was lost
please forgive.
continue catching up.

[Bananna]

I missed it if there was a name... for the area.
bananna

[Lulav]

True. I'm actually hoping that incident serves as a learning experience. I'm sure in the future, instead of assuming that when a Jew uses an unfamiliar Hebrew word, the person will be asked what the word means before deleting the post and sending a warning to the person. :thumbsup:
Or they could ask the Orthodox raised Jew who is part of that team first? ;)

[Talmidah]

Or they could ask the Orthodox raised Jew who is part of that team first? ;) Sure, however they'd like to handle it so that the meaning and intent are known before acting on the post. :)

[Lulav]

sorry to cause trouble.................

[visionary]

I will close this thread if it continues on rabbit trails. That is not the purpose here.

[Torah613]

In this area, I would be shocked if someone didn't know the difference between Mitzvah and Mikvah. Actually I was shocked.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

sorry vis for continuing the rabbit trail.

Yochanan

[Lulav]

Umm, yeah, sorry, but my main purpose was to say that I was told I would be added to the list and didn't see my name on there, but I guess you already got your quota. So

[visionary]

visionary
JosephtheKansan
GerTzedek
Wags
HaReb
ChazakEmunah
ShirChadash
ChavaK
Talmidah
Kris10leigh
Henny
zaksmummy
Torah613
Wags
HaReb
LadyGarnetRose
simchat torah
HadassahSukkot
Steve Petersen
A Pioneer
kivi
Johnd
Lulav


Do you know that you were one of the first people that I invited here? ;) Glad you can make it.:clap: It wouldn't be the same without you.

[Torah613]

Vis, you still have me listed twice on there. FYI

Yochanan

[Tishri1]

True. I'm actually hoping that incident serves as a learning experience. I'm sure in the future, instead of assuming that when a Jew uses an unfamiliar Hebrew word, the person will be asked what the word means before deleting the post and sending a warning to the person. :thumbsup:FYI that post wasnt deleted for a hebrew word, and wasnt reported for a hebrew word

[Talmidah]

FYI that post wasnt deleted for a hebrew word, and wasnt reported for a hebrew word

Oh!!! :doh: That was my impression. :blush: Thank you for clearing it up! :wave:

Well, I'm sure it still was useful as a learning tool. Lots of people had probably not seen the word neshama before and now they know what it means! :thumbsup:

[visionary]

Vis, you still have me listed twice on there. FYI

YochananShhh it makes the list look longer... besides you can post with either name.

[GerTzedek]

Vis: does the latest turn of the screw mean that you also can't moderate in the new forum?

[HaReb]

Please be kind enough to remove both entries of my name from the list.

[Bananna]

I support a Hebrew Roots forum here in UT also.

bananna

[HalcyonFire]

Let me email a few of the Messianics who visited the old forum but didn't stick around because it was too Christian and gentile. They may be interested.
so non Jewish messianics will not be welcome?

[Torah613]

I think it was more an issue of people being harassed for being too Jewish in their customs. Goyim I would assume would be welcome. After all we welcome them into our homes on Shabbos. In fact sometimes they make our coffee. ;) I've used some JW missionaries for this. My pot, my coffe, etc. so everything was Kosher but being shabbos I couldn't make coffee myself. Surprisingly they didn't try to push their religious views off on me either. Can't remember how the subject of coffee came up though.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

oh. okay. I hope no one sees me as a Jewish basher... if you do please PM me because I've mistakenly totally misrepresented myself to you and need to beg forgiveness on an individual basis.

[ChavaK]

so non Jewish messianics will not be welcome?

Do you mean on this forum?
From what I understand, everyone will be welcome.

The main difference between this and the Messie forum
will be that open discussion by all will be allowed here,
where it is not at the MF.

All though I haven't seen much discussing recently
about getting this going.

Seems like many of the Messies are happier to stay
at MF and the Jews have moved on to a different forum...

[ChavaK]

In fact sometimes they make our coffee. ;) I've used some JW missionaries for this. My pot, my coffe, etc. so everything was Kosher but being shabbos I couldn't make coffee myself. Surprisingly they didn't try to push their religious views off on me either. Can't remember how the subject of coffee came up though.

Yochanan

Wow, a useful reason for JW missionaries to exist!
Did you get a chance to sit down over a cup of
coffee and proselytize them? LOL

[ChavaK]

oh. okay. I hope no one sees me as a Jewish basher... if you do please PM me because I've mistakenly totally misrepresented myself to you and need to beg forgiveness on an individual basis.


I don't think any of us see you that way....you have
always been kind and gracious.

[HalcyonFire]

:blush::hug:

count me in then on the list

[Torah613]

Wow, a useful reason for JW missionaries to exist!
Did you get a chance to sit down over a cup of
coffee and proselytize them? LOL

nope, but I did enjoy a nice hot cup of coffee on shabbos! or rather several. we just chatted about various benign completely secular subjects. I was surprised they never said anything about religion tho. One of these days I'll have to seriously consider hiring a shabbos goy once I live alone again.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

what's a goy? (sorry)

[Torah613]

gentile--non Jew. Its the generic term for anyone who is not Jewish. Goyishe is the adjective form. Its yiddish.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

a shabbos goy is someone who comes in and does those things a Jew cannot do on shabbos (make coffee, adjust the thermostat, etc.). They were very prevelant in observant homes prior to the invention of the automatic timers for lightswitches.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

k. interesting. so you're not guilty of working by proxy? (sorry, you can ignore me if you want, just picking your brain again - if i could afford it, i'd be a perpetual student as my job)

[ChavaK]

gentile--non Jew. Its the generic term for anyone who is not Jewish. Goyishe is the adjective form. Its yiddish.

Yochanan

Although technically it means "nation" plural goyim "nations"

Means essentialy a non-Jew.

[ChavaK]

k. interesting. so you're not guilty of working by proxy? (sorry, you can ignore me if you want, just picking your brain again - if i could afford it, i'd be a perpetual student as my job)

No, although the shabbas goy is kind of a myth.

There are many many things you cannot directly
ask a non-Jew to do for you on shabbas.

This is a very simplistic explanation of the rules regarding
having non-Jews do work for Jews on shabbas and yom tov.
It is more complex than this, but this gives a good over view:

First of all, the law states explicitly that as a general principle we may not ask a non-Jew to do anything on Shabbat that we may not do ourselves. (see for instance Maimonides, Mishne Torah, Hil. Shabbat 24:1).
There are exceptions to this rule in the following cases:
-Illness or emergencies
-Lighting a fire in cold weather
- Relieving an animal from pain
- If the act is done by a non-Jew for his own purpose, a Jew may benefit from it.

There is another category of work that is allowed by Jewish Law to ask a non-Jew to do, and those are the Rabbinical interdictions. For instance carrying an object in the public domain. For the sake of accomplishing a mitzvah (a commandment) one is allowed to ask a non-Jew to do a "work" that is a Rabbinical interdiction.

In the past people have stretched those exceptions and use "Shabbes Goy" to do all kind of forbidden work in the house, but with modern automatic devices it has become unnecessary.

Besides this point, some authorities gave a general principle that if the non-Jew is independent, is paid for the job as a whole, and is not specifically told to work on Shabbat, he may do his work.

[HalcyonFire]

yeah, i see that about ya'll. (so much to pick and poke to understand) thx again guys

[ChavaK]

Actually, Jews are goyim, LOL.

HaShem calls us a "Holy nation"......."goy kadosh".

[HalcyonFire]

kadosh - meaning holy right (guessing)

[ChavaK]

kadosh - meaning holy right (guessing)

Correct!
:wave:

[HalcyonFire]

budding translator here (sometimes I feel like I need a Jewish/English dictionary with you and the MJs)

[Kris10leigh]

So are most of "ya'll" sticking around, but over here? [she hopes]

Like HaReb said in the other forum, it's sad to see us categorized as "unorthodox", but then again, I consider myself to be rather unorthodox, so it bothers me not. Just because man says I'm a heretic means nothing in the end.

*******
(Man, I need to read before I hit /submit/!

[HalcyonFire]

we should have heretic appreciation day some time :)

[Kris10leigh]

we should have heretic appreciation day some time :)

^_^:clap:^_^

[Henaynei]

so non Jewish Messianics will not be welcome?non-Jewish Messianics are fine.... as long as their growth is toward Torah and their attitude is what can I learn about living as did Messiah and all his disciples.... rather than championing churchianity in the Messianic movement it IS a Jewish movement in which gentiles are welcome when they protect, defend and encourage the growth of Messianic Judaism toward a true Jewish maturity....

I am a Gentile Messianic...if one does not want Judaism they don't need Messianic Judaism - this is not Messianic Gentile-ism ;)

[HalcyonFire]

yeah, anyone from the women's area can tell you I'm not into churchianity :) - thx for responding

[ChavaK]

- this is not Messianic Gentile-ism

It is if you look at the overall perceentage of gentiles
involved in the movement, LOL ;)

[ChavaK]

So are most of "ya'll" sticking around, but over here? [she hopes]
We will probably have limited involvement here, as we are all off
making ourselves busy at a different forum.

Plus with what I predict are future changes at MF, we will be limited
to only posting here. I don't think they started this forum just to
make us happy, LOL


Like HaReb said in the other forum, it's sad to see us categorized as "unorthodox", but then again, I consider myself to be rather unorthodox, so it bothers me not. Just because man says I'm a heretic means nothing in the end.Doesn't bother me at all to have such a label put on me.
But then again, we are used to being called "unbelievers",
"blinded", etc etc so I guess being called "Unorthodox" is actually
an improvement, LOL.

[ChavaK]

we should have heretic appreciation day some time :)


LOL!!! :D

[HalcyonFire]

what other forum (or can't I ask)

[ChavaK]

what other forum (or can't I ask)

You can ask....it is a by invite only fourm...I can submit your name.
It mostly for Jews discussing Jewish issues...

[HalcyonFire]

That would be wonderful if you feel I would not detract from the surroundings

[HaReb]

Doesn't bother me at all to have such a label put on me.
But then again, we are used to being called "unbelievers",
"blinded", etc etc so I guess being called "Unorthodox" is actually
an improvement, LOL.


Just to make matters very clear: I have NOT said or implied that anyone on this forum is either a heretic or 'unorthodox'. Those titles are the very ones I tried hard to fight against us having when this particular forum was suggested, and is the reason I do not feel able to stay. We are a Chosen People, a Royal Priesthood, a Holy Nation - not something to hide away, buried under the title 'unorthodox' or 'heretic' with cults, sects, and other philosophies or belief systems.

I support you all, but I think this is a wrong move and so I cannot support it in the way you feel I should.

[Kris10leigh]

Just to make matters very clear: I have NOT said or implied that anyone on this forum is either a heretic or 'unorthodox'. Those titles are the very ones I tried hard to fight against us having when this particular forum was suggested, and is the reason I do not feel able to stay. We are a Chosen People, a Royal Priesthood, a Holy Nation - not something to hide away, buried under the title 'unorthodox' or 'heretic' with cults, sects, and other philosophies or belief systems.

I support you all, but I think this is a wrong move and so I cannot support it in the way you feel I should.
HaReb, I used your name in my post and I hope you understand I completely get where you are coming from and used it by means of supporting my statement. We are NOT heretics, of course, and it IS sad that it must come down to this. But I'm beyond caring, at the moment, what anyone but God believes about me, so put me somewhere where I can discuss really issues.

I highly respect the stand you are taking. ;)

[ChavaK]

info no longer needed

[ChavaK]

Just to make matters very clear: I have NOT said or implied that anyone on this forum is either a heretic or 'unorthodox'.
Oh, I didn't think you were referring to us :)

I support you all, but I think this is a wrong move and so I cannot support it in the way you feel I should.
Maybe, but since we simply don't have full posting rights at the other forum
this is a compromise...

I understand if you are not comfortable with it...
:wave:

[GerTzedek]

Oh, of course you are heretics. Why not simply say it with pride. Why not do what all heretics do and say "We are right and the mainstream Christian church is who is wrong." Sheesh. The Nicene creed defines Christian orthodoxy. You are not.

Heck, *I* don't agree with the Nicene Creed. I'm worse than a heretic. I'm a cotton pickin apostate. That kind of makes you look downright angelic.

[Kris10leigh]

Why not do what all heretics do and say "We are right and the mainstream Christian church is who is wrong."



Because I do not believe that I am right and everyone else is wrong. I believe no one can know that until we all stand before God. I'm just doing what I personally feel led to do.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Oh, of course you are heretics. Why not simply say it with pride. Why not do what all heretics do and say "We are right and the mainstream Christian church is who is wrong." Sheesh. The Nicene creed defines Christian orthodoxy. You are not.

Heck, *I* don't agree with the Nicene Creed. I'm worse than a heretic. I'm a cotton pickin apostate. That kind of makes you look downright angelic.

A heretic first has to belong to that particular group I do not considered the plethora of denominations the same group.

Second the heretic has to care about what the leaders of said group have to say.

Third, if you aren't a member of that group why would you care?

[Henaynei]

I may not be a heretic, that is for others with the calling to do so to decide - but I've always been unorthodox by the definition of the populace - what HaShem thinks..... He often keeps that to Himself, though sometimes He does tell me ;)

[visionary]

Yeshua was rather unorthodox in His day too, at least by some standards.

[Kris10leigh]

Yeshua was rather unorthodox in His day too, at least by some standards.

Thanks, Vis! :clap: Isn't that nice to remember?

[visionary]

Yeah, we are in good company following Him... He is right, they are wrong.

[HalcyonFire]

we were talking about that last night! lol. I say, CALL ME A HERETIC because then I know I'm making you uncomfortable (and discomfort has a reason)

[LittleLambofJesus]

Because I do not believe that I am right and everyone else is wrong. I believe no one can know that until we all stand before God. I'm just doing what I personally feel led to do.Hi. I agree. That will be a sight to behold for those still around to see it. :wave:

Malachi 3:2 and who enduring the Day of coming of Him, and who the one Standing in the to appear Him. That He as fire of refiner and as soap of launderers.

Revelation 16:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: Be ye falling upon us! and hide Ye us! from face of the One-sitting upon the throne, and from the Wrath of the Lamb-kin
17 that came the Day, the great, of the wrath of Him and who is able to Stand.