Why can't we all just be "Christians"?

[moonbear]

Hello eveyone, I have a question. Why are there so many different denominations of Christianity? I don't understand it, it really makes no sense to me. We are Christians, why do we need different types of Christians? I think that we should ALL try to follow the word of God and His teaching as closley as we can, I'm only 17 so I really don't understand the differences between one Christian denomination and another but the way I see it, if we are all follow in the same laws, the same teachings, and if we all accept Jesus as the Son of God and our Savior, why don't we all unify together as one following? Just Christians. Thats it. Not Baptist, not Lutheran, not Anglican. CHRISTIAN. I'm not saying that the vaious denominations are waring or anything like that but there does seem to be a certain amount of division. I for one believe that we could acomplish so much more in the name of God if we all came together as one unified following. Maybe there something I don't get, or maybe I missed some grand reason to be all split up like this. If so, I'm sorry, and plese help me understand. Thank you all, and God bless you all. Sorry for any misspellings but I'm running a virus scan right now and I didnt want to download spellcheck at the same time.

[bbbbbbb]

Excellent question. I happen to be in a church that tries to avoid denominational titles. However, I found a very funny situation some years ago. We had called our building the X City Bible Chapel until we gained some members that thought it was a sort of denominational identification. This particular groups likes to call themselves an assembly, so I suggested that they change the name to X Street Christian Assembly. There was vigorous objections to that idea because there was another church a mile or so away which was a Christian Church (which was fine with me). They didn't want us to be confused with that other church. They ended up called themselves the X Street Bible Assembly, to which I said that you can have an assembly of Christians, but is it silly to have an assembly of Bibles. However, they kept that name until they discovered to their horror that people were confusing them with the Assembly of God. So, they went back to being the X City Bible Chapel.

Another story, while I am on a roll here. A similar church decided they needed to move for reasons that were entirely unclear to me. They were looking at different properties and I was asked to give them my professional opinion as an architect about one building. I have a reputation for dissing buildings in most cases. In this case, however, I found no fault. It was a very fine building was excellent parking in a great location at a very reasonable price. However, they decided against buying it because it was being sold by a Christian church and they didn't want the Lord's money going into the hands of possible unbelievers. I suspect there was much more to the story than that flimsy excuse. They ended up building a new building and sold their old building to a Metropolitan Community Church, which is hardly Christian as they are formed of homosexuals who promote that lifestyle as being Christian. As a result, I asked the members of the church how it was that they would not buy a building from a group that might not be Christians (despite their title) but were pleased to take money from a group that definitely was not Christians.

The bottom line seems to be human pride. We want to find an identity that sets apart from other believers in Christ and makes us feel that we are somehow better than the rest of the bunch. It is not enough to find our identity in Jesus Christ and HIm alone.

[eldermike]

Hello eveyone, I have a question. Why are there so many different denominations of Christianity? I don't understand it, it really makes no sense to me. We are Christians, why do we need different types of Christians? I think that we should ALL try to follow the word of God and His teaching as closley as we can, I'm only 17 so I really don't understand the differences between one Christian denomination and another but the way I see it, if we are all follow in the same laws, the same teachings, and if we all accept Jesus as the Son of God and our Savior, why don't we all unify together as one following? Just Christians. Thats it. Not Baptist, not Lutheran, not Anglican. CHRISTIAN. I'm not saying that the vaious denominations are waring or anything like that but there does seem to be a certain amount of division. I for one believe that we could acomplish so much more in the name of God if we all came together as one unified following. Maybe there something I don't get, or maybe I missed some grand reason to be all split up like this. If so, I'm sorry, and plese help me understand. Thank you all, and God bless you all. Sorry for any misspellings but I'm running a virus scan right now and I didnt want to download spellcheck at the same time.

I have an opinion on this:

Acts 26:15"Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?'
" 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'


It's plain to me that to be a Christian you must first be set free from what you think you are.
To be a _(fill in the blank)____________Christian is to be in bondage, or in other words, not set free.
You can't go until you go in the chains of Christ, you can't take on His chains until you set yours down.

We have many Christian clubs today, but not many Christians.
If you are in bondage to a denomination or a message that feels good to the ears, you are not free.

Christian = follower of Jesus Christ, one sent out as a witness to the good news, one speaking into darkeness to bring light to the world. One that has been rescued from the world and given a mission not your own.

If that's not your church, then you are a Christian club member.

[Izdaari]

Excellent question. I happen to be in a church that tries to avoid denominational titles. However, I found a very funny situation some years ago. We had called our building the X City Bible Chapel until we gained some members that thought it was a sort of denominational identification. This particular groups likes to call themselves an assembly, so I suggested that they change the name to X Street Christian Assembly. There was vigorous objections to that idea because there was another church a mile or so away which was a Christian Church (which was fine with me). They didn't want us to be confused with that other church. They ended up called themselves the X Street Bible Assembly, to which I said that you can have an assembly of Christians, but is it silly to have an assembly of Bibles. However, they kept that name until they discovered to their horror that people were confusing them with the Assembly of God. So, they went back to being the X City Bible Chapel.

Another story, while I am on a roll here. A similar church decided they needed to move for reasons that were entirely unclear to me. They were looking at different properties and I was asked to give them my professional opinion as an architect about one building. I have a reputation for dissing buildings in most cases. In this case, however, I found no fault. It was a very fine building was excellent parking in a great location at a very reasonable price. However, they decided against buying it because it was being sold by a Christian church and they didn't want the Lord's money going into the hands of possible unbelievers. I suspect there was much more to the story than that flimsy excuse. They ended up building a new building and sold their old building to a Metropolitan Community Church, which is hardly Christian as they are formed of homosexuals who promote that lifestyle as being Christian. As a result, I asked the members of the church how it was that they would not buy a building from a group that might not be Christians (despite their title) but were pleased to take money from a group that definitely was not Christians.

The bottom line seems to be human pride. We want to find an identity that sets apart from other believers in Christ and makes us feel that we are somehow better than the rest of the bunch. It is not enough to find our identity in Jesus Christ and HIm alone.
Your larger point is well taken. However, I think that's an inaccurate and unfair description of the Metropolitan Community Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Community_Church). And while I understand that you and many others of our fellow Christians disagree with their outreach to homosexuals, I think it's wrong to call them un-Christian because of it; and not only wrong, but a violation of CF rules.

[Izdaari]

Hello eveyone, I have a question. Why are there so many different denominations of Christianity? I don't understand it, it really makes no sense to me. We are Christians, why do we need different types of Christians? I think that we should ALL try to follow the word of God and His teaching as closley as we can, I'm only 17 so I really don't understand the differences between one Christian denomination and another but the way I see it, if we are all follow in the same laws, the same teachings, and if we all accept Jesus as the Son of God and our Savior, why don't we all unify together as one following? Just Christians. Thats it. Not Baptist, not Lutheran, not Anglican. CHRISTIAN. I'm not saying that the vaious denominations are waring or anything like that but there does seem to be a certain amount of division. I for one believe that we could acomplish so much more in the name of God if we all came together as one unified following. Maybe there something I don't get, or maybe I missed some grand reason to be all split up like this. If so, I'm sorry, and plese help me understand. Thank you all, and God bless you all. Sorry for any misspellings but I'm running a virus scan right now and I didnt want to download spellcheck at the same time.
It's true that the basics are the same for all of us Christ-followers. Baptists, Anglicans, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, we all agree on the content of the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed (though we don't all agree that having a creed is proper!), and on the essential doctrines common to pretty much all reasonably orthodox Christians, as set forth by C.S. Lewis in his excellent little book, Mere Christianity.

So why all the denominations? Because we disagree on the less important stuff, like whether the Pope is really the head of the church, like whether we should baptize infants or wait until they're old enough to understand, like whether we should worship on Saturday or Sunday, and whether the Pentecostal gifts are still active today. And we disagree on which of those things are important and which are unimportant. :sigh:

Myself, I'd rather focus on what we have in common. But it is what it is. Whatever church you're in, as long as we agree on the basics, you're my brothers and sisters in Christ.

:groupray:

[ImmersionX]

Amen to that right there!

:thumbsup::amen::clap:

[nzguy]

Well here is something radical for you all.. the reason we don't all just 'get along' is because we don't all follow the same gospel...

check this out

- salvation by works permeates alot of the Protestant denominations and is the status quo for Catholics...

Now salvation by works is not following Jesus! It is a DIFFERENT gospel!

So if you want unity.. what are we uniting on?

Because we wouldn't be uniting on salvation
We wouldn't be uniting on what the nature of a church is
We wouldn't be uniting on spiritual gifts
We wouldn't be uniting on the triune nature of God

We would pretty much be like Universalists or New Agers! Basically in teh name of unity.. they have no standard of truth!

The fact is men have twisted the bible to their destruction.. and all these divisions are consequences of man's sin.

This does not mean that the bible itself is corrupt.. indeed it has been preserved thru every age by the power of God, in an almost completely intact form.. and this IS the rule of thumb for us. If we are going to unite on anything I would hope it would be to be bible-believing..

but even that denominations don't agree on.. a Liberal Methodist or Anglican or Catholic and a number of other denoms will not accept the bible as God's Word!

So the question remains.. what can.. or do we really unite on?

[ImmersionX]

It's a MYTH that salvation is by works and not of grace within the Roman Catholic Church...a myth that most protestants love to preach, yet never bother to look up the facts(and I'm a Baptist!!!).....


Actually here is the official doctrine of Salvation for the Roman Catholic Church:


The Council of Trent (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm) describes the process of salvation from sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) in the case of an adult with great minuteness (Sess. VI, v-vi).
It begins with the grace of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) which touches a sinner's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) and mercy of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm). Man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) may receive or reject this inspiration of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), he may turn to God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) or remain in sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). Grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) does not constrain man's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) free will (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm).
Thus assisted the sinner (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) is disposed for salvation from sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm); he believes (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm) in the revelation (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13001a.htm) and promises of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), he fears (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06021a.htm) God's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) justice (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm), hopes (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07465b.htm) in his mercy, trusts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15072a.htm) that God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) will be merciful to him for Christ's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) sake, begins to love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) as the source of all justice (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm), hates (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07149b.htm) and detests his sins (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm).
This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) by the voluntary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15506a.htm) reception of God's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) and gifts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm), whence a man becomes just instead of unjust (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08010c.htm), a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07465b.htm) of eternal (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm) life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) or by virtue of the Sacrament (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm) either of Baptism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) or of Penance according to the condition (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04211a.htm) of the respective subject laden with sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm) of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm), the charity of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.

Against the heretical (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm) tenets of various times and sects (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13674a.htm) we must hold

that the initial grace is truly gratuitous and supernatural (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14336b.htm);
that the human will remains free under the influence of this grace;
that man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) really cooperates in his personal salvation from sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm);
that by justification man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) is really made just, and not merely declared or reputed so;
that justification and sanctification are only two aspects of the same thing, and not ontologically (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11258a.htm) and chronologically distinct realities;
that justification excludes all mortal sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) from the soul (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm), so that the just man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) is no way liable to the sentence (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13720b.htm) of death (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm) at God's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) judgment-seat.
I bit more to it than how most Protestants think. I was born and raised RC for the record.
Left that church....different thread.

peace.

[nzguy]

ah I did not know that about their creed.. but that is going back to their root beliefs.. what about the lifting up of Mary to divine status..... and all the rituals Catholics have to do to become Catholics? Check out Catholics Online.. that has a whole number of different rituals to go thru!

But yeah I guess if you go right back to their creeds.. they are close to biblical salvation.. altho I did notice one thing in the Roman Catholic doctrine there that salvation and sanctification are not seperate! Now this is where the works-based salvation comes in.. because they have to 'prove' they are saved thru the sanctification of their life! Basically it is works-based salvation because you cannot be saved.. or lose your salvation if you aren't doing good works!

salvation is a free gift, un earned.. you don't have to prove you have it.. and there is no pre-requisite of works required to demonstrate it.. any good works that come out of having salvation are a natural outflow of the fruit of the Spirit working in your life.

once you are saved, even if you rebel against God, you remain His child.. you can't leave God.

Anyways.. I think with alot of salvation doctrine.. salvation and service are not seperate from eachother.. where they should be! One is saving faith by grace alone for eternal life.. the other is daily salvation by reliance on the Holy Spirit every day..

I will say it is possible to not be saved in the first place.. but impossible to lose your salvation

[Izdaari]

:amen:

Aye, ImmersionX has the right of it. The RCC doctrines are as he explained them. But still, they place rather more emphasis on works than I am comfortable with... however, not so much that I'd say they reject Grace, or that I'd call them less than good Christians. It's a difference of where they place the emphasis, not a different Gospel. They're more James, I'm more Galatians, but both are valid and important epistles.

[Izdaari]

ah I did not know that about their creed.. but that is going back to their root beliefs.. what about the lifting up of Mary to divine status..... and all the rituals Catholics have to do to become Catholics? Check out Catholics Online.. that has a whole number of different rituals to go thru!
I think I'd better let ImmersionX explain this part too. But I will say there's quite a bit of difference between 'veneration' and 'worship'.

I don't agree entirely with Catholics on doctrine, else I'd be one. But I certainly consider them my brothers and sisters in Christ! :clap:

But yeah I guess if you go right back to their creeds.. they are close to biblical salvation.. altho I did notice one thing in the Roman Catholic doctrine there that salvation and sanctification are not seperate! Now this is where the works-based salvation comes in.. because they have to 'prove' they are saved thru the sanctification of their life! Basically it is works-based salvation because you cannot be saved.. or lose your salvation if you aren't doing good works!

salvation is a free gift, un earned.. you don't have to prove you have it.. and there is no pre-requisite of works required to demonstrate it.. any good works that come out of having salvation are a natural outflow of the fruit of the Spirit working in your life.

once you are saved, even if you rebel against God, you remain His child.. you can't leave God.

Anyways.. I think with alot of salvation doctrine.. salvation and service are not seperate from eachother.. where they should be! One is saving faith by grace alone for eternal life.. the other is daily salvation by reliance on the Holy Spirit every day..

I will say it is possible to not be saved in the first place.. but impossible to lose your salvation:amen:

You and I are pretty much on the same page here.

[nzguy]

James is as much reliance on grace as Galatians.. the verses like faith without works is dead are not about salvation, but daily service. You can know this by looking at the examples of faith that James refers to.. they are all instances of serving God in an act of service...

the 'dead' in 'faith without works is dead'... means dormant or unused.. unfruitful.. not lost.. or gone.. it means that if we see an opportunity to do something in our daily walk for someone else.. and do nothing.. we aren't using our faith.

So James is as much salvation by grace alone as is Galatians

[Izdaari]

James is as much reliance on grace as Galatians.. the verses like faith without works is dead are not about salvation, but daily service. You can know this by looking at the examples of faith that James refers to.. they are all instances of serving God in an act of service...

the 'dead' in 'faith without works is dead'... means dormant or unused.. unfruitful.. not lost.. or gone.. it means that if we see an opportunity to do something in our daily walk for someone else.. and do nothing.. we aren't using our faith.

So James is as much salvation by grace alone as is Galatians
:amen:

That's why I'm all for using both James and Galatians, though I'm more fond of Galatians myself. And that relates to the point I was making when I mentioned it. Though the RCC is more about acts of service, they still see salvation as based on grace. However, not every Catholic understands fully the actual doctrine of their own church. But not that we Protestants are necessarily any better.

[BetaMan]

:amen:
Though the RCC is more about acts of services, they still see salvation as based on grace. However, not every Catholic understands fully the actual doctrine of their own church. But not that we Protestants are necessarily any better.


However, Salvation is an individual thing. You NEED to understand it. Paul states, "let every man examine himself to see if he is in the faith".

Christ doesn't want RELIGIOUS people, he wants a RELATIONSHIP with His people. You don't have to hold close to your DENOMINATIONS doctrine, You have to know accept Christ's free gift of salvation alone! That HE paid it all and completely, Separate from works. It is SOLELY what HE did! and we are kept by Him for eternity!

(Don't mean to sound like I'm ranting...) :)

[Izdaari]

However, Salvation is an individual thing. You NEED to understand it. Paul states, "let every man examine himself to see if he is in the faith".

Christ doesn't want RELIGIOUS people, he wants a RELATIONSHIP with His people. You don't have to hold close to your DENOMINATIONS doctrine, You have to know accept Christ's free gift of salvation alone! That HE paid it all and completely, Separate from works. It is SOLELY what HE did! and we are kept by Him for eternity!

(Don't mean to sound like I'm ranting...) :)
:thumbsup: I'm with you on this, BetaMan!

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Hi Moonbear, denominations are important because they can help us know what doctrine a church holds to. Doctrine is how we understand God and what he tells us. Truth is important so doctrine is important. For example some people think we should baptize babies and others believe we should just baptize born again believers. Some think that active homosexuals can be pastors, others don't. Others think women can be a head pastor of a church, others don't. Also groups such as the RCC have a different means of salvation if you actually look into it and don't take what people tell you on here at face value. Only when we are with the Lord will all true Christians be truly united.

Hello eveyone, I have a question. Why are there so many different denominations of Christianity? I don't understand it, it really makes no sense to me. We are Christians, why do we need different types of Christians? I think that we should ALL try to follow the word of God and His teaching as closley as we can, I'm only 17 so I really don't understand the differences between one Christian denomination and another but the way I see it, if we are all follow in the same laws, the same teachings, and if we all accept Jesus as the Son of God and our Savior, why don't we all unify together as one following? Just Christians. Thats it. Not Baptist, not Lutheran, not Anglican. CHRISTIAN. I'm not saying that the vaious denominations are waring or anything like that but there does seem to be a certain amount of division. I for one believe that we could acomplish so much more in the name of God if we all came together as one unified following. Maybe there something I don't get, or maybe I missed some grand reason to be all split up like this. If so, I'm sorry, and plese help me understand. Thank you all, and God bless you all. Sorry for any misspellings but I'm running a virus scan right now and I didnt want to download spellcheck at the same time.

[ImmersionX]

ah I did not know that about their creed.. but that is going back to their root beliefs.. what about the lifting up of Mary to divine status..... and all the rituals Catholics have to do to become Catholics? Check out Catholics Online.. that has a whole number of different rituals to go thru!

But yeah I guess if you go right back to their creeds.. they are close to biblical salvation.. altho I did notice one thing in the Roman Catholic doctrine there that salvation and sanctification are not seperate! Now this is where the works-based salvation comes in.. because they have to 'prove' they are saved thru the sanctification of their life! Basically it is works-based salvation because you cannot be saved.. or lose your salvation if you aren't doing good works!

salvation is a free gift, un earned.. you don't have to prove you have it.. and there is no pre-requisite of works required to demonstrate it.. any good works that come out of having salvation are a natural outflow of the fruit of the Spirit working in your life.

once you are saved, even if you rebel against God, you remain His child.. you can't leave God.

Anyways.. I think with alot of salvation doctrine.. salvation and service are not seperate from eachother.. where they should be! One is saving faith by grace alone for eternal life.. the other is daily salvation by reliance on the Holy Spirit every day..

I will say it is possible to not be saved in the first place.. but impossible to lose your salvation

Oh trust me brother....there are many many reasons, including what you've stated that led me to leave the RC church....;)

But to answer the OP's original question....it's simply because we are all human beings...and well...that's the best way to explain it.

[PaladinGirl]

Your larger point is well taken. However, I think that's an inaccurate and unfair description of the Metropolitan Community Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Community_Church). And while I understand that you and many others of our fellow Christians disagree with their outreach to homosexuals, I think it's wrong to call them un-Christian because of it; and not only wrong, but a violation of CF rules.

Well frankly, I agree with him/her. The Metropolitan Community Church is not a true Christian church.

[PaladinGirl]

However, Salvation is an individual thing. You NEED to understand it. Paul states, "let every man examine himself to see if he is in the faith".

Christ doesn't want RELIGIOUS people, he wants a RELATIONSHIP with His people. You don't have to hold close to your DENOMINATIONS doctrine, You have to know accept Christ's free gift of salvation alone! That HE paid it all and completely, Separate from works. It is SOLELY what HE did! and we are kept by Him for eternity!

(Don't mean to sound like I'm ranting...) :)

:amen:

[DeaconDean]

It's a MYTH that salvation is by works and not of grace within the Roman Catholic Church...a myth that most protestants love to preach, yet never bother to look up the facts(and I'm a Baptist!!!).....


Actually here is the official doctrine of Salvation for the Roman Catholic Church:


The Council of Trent (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm) describes the process of salvation from sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) in the case of an adult with great minuteness (Sess. VI, v-vi).
It begins with the grace of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) which touches a sinner's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) and mercy of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm). Man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) may receive or reject this inspiration of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), he may turn to God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) or remain in sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). Grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) does not constrain man's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) free will (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm).
Thus assisted the sinner (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) is disposed for salvation from sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm); he believes (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm) in the revelation (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13001a.htm) and promises of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), he fears (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06021a.htm) God's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) justice (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm), hopes (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07465b.htm) in his mercy, trusts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15072a.htm) that God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) will be merciful to him for Christ's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) sake, begins to love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) as the source of all justice (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm), hates (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07149b.htm) and detests his sins (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm).
This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) by the voluntary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15506a.htm) reception of God's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) and gifts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm), whence a man becomes just instead of unjust (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08010c.htm), a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07465b.htm) of eternal (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm) life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) or by virtue of the Sacrament (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm) either of Baptism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) or of Penance according to the condition (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04211a.htm) of the respective subject laden with sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm) of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm), the charity of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.


Against the heretical (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm) tenets of various times and sects (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13674a.htm) we must hold

that the initial grace is truly gratuitous and supernatural (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14336b.htm);
that the human will remains free under the influence of this grace;
that man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) really cooperates in his personal salvation from sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm);
that by justification man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) is really made just, and not merely declared or reputed so;
that justification and sanctification are only two aspects of the same thing, and not ontologically (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11258a.htm) and chronologically distinct realities;
that justification excludes all mortal sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) from the soul (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm), so that the just man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) is no way liable to the sentence (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13720b.htm) of death (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm) at God's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) judgment-seat.
I bit more to it than how most Protestants think. I was born and raised RC for the record.
Left that church....different thread.

peace.

True, salvation is by the grace of God. however, it is funny that you should bring up the Council of Trent.

What did the Council of Trent say when it comes to justification?

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/trent.htm

Arthur W. Pink writes:


Between Protestants and Romanists there is a wide difference of opinion as to the meaning of the term "justify": they affirming that to justify is to make inherently righteous and holy; we insisting that to justify signifies only to formally pronounce just or legally declare righteous. Popery includes under justification the renovation of man's moral nature or deliverance from depravity, thereby confounding justification with regeneration and sanctification. On the other hand, all representative Protestants have shown that justification refers not to a change of moral character, but to a change of legal status; though allowing, yea, insisting, that a radical change of character invariably accompanies it. It is a legal change from a state of guilt and condemnation to a state of forgiveness and acceptance; and this change is owing solely to a gratuitous act of God, founded upon the righteousness of Christ (they having none of their own) being imputed to His people.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Pink/pink_justification.html

There are a lot of things the Council of Trent had to say regarding those who disagree with "Catholic" dogma.

SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 5).

Ibid.

This is another example.

THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST: "If anyone says that Christ received in the Eucharist is received spiritually only and not also sacramentally and really, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, Canon 8).

Ibid.

And just to show I'm not picking on the Catholic church, I fully disagree with the Lutheran teaching of consubstancation.

While we all are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves or works, (Eph. 2:8-9) when it comes to teaching practical doctrines, that is what separates us.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[LivingWorshipper]

Time ago I came around with that same question, and looking up in Google I arrived to a website with an article called "What's Good About Denominations?" The link is found here (http://www.markdroberts.com/htmfiles/resources/goodaboutdenominations.htm) if you want to read.

[MoNiCa4316]

:wave:Sorry I'm not Baptist, I hope it's alright for me to post here.. I'm not looking for debate.. I see that Catholic doctrine was discussed in this thread. I'm a Catholic and I'd just like to say that yes we do believe in salvation by grace and not by works. If anyone wants more information, please feel free to ask at OBOB :)
As for the Council of Trent, what they were trying to show is that we're saved by grace alone through faith working in love, not through faith alone, because "faith without works is dead". The reason this was discussed was to answer the claims of the Reformation.
Hope that makes sense.
But we believe in salvation by grace because of Christ's sacrifice.

God bless

monica

[LivingWordUnity]

And we disagree on which of those things are important and which are unimportant. :sigh:.

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

I'm a Catholic and I'd just like to say that yes we do believe in salvation by grace and not by works.

Just so everyone is aware official Catholic doctrine states that faith is necessary for salvation but not sufficient. There is a huge difference between the beliefs Baptists have and Catholics have when it some to justification.

[The Cheat]

I think my sig has some verses that apply here. :)

[Ravenonthecross]

I pray that one day we may all be united together in the One Universal Church that is Christ's.

:liturgy:O Lord may thy will be done!; On Earth as it is in Heaven! Amen. Allelulia.:prayer::crossrc:

[nzguy]

okaaaaay....

you might want to know that there were Christian churches who chose not to unite with Augustine on the doctrine of a universal church.. who would have no intention of all churches uniting into one universal church.. but local congregations who work for their communities independently and autonomously, revering the Word of God.

Paulicians.. Montanists.. Donatists.. (ana-baptists was the nick-name)

there are others.. and I know you are going to deny these churches were even Christian.. probly deny they even existed.. because the Catholics and some of the Protestants are the ones who persecuted and cut them off!

They are in Catholic and Protestant's own records.. and have been around since b4 Catholicism..

they are evident today in independent Baptist churches.. Missionary Baptist churches.. churches in Wales.. Scotland.. all over the world.. where they will only baptise adults.. believe salvation is secure.. believe 'church' is always a local congregation with no universal aspect.. and will re-baptise people who were baptised in other churches that don't believe the bible completely.

So these kinds of churches.. have been martyrd to pieces.. marginalised.. persecuted.. but have remained till today.

I know this is going to go down like a sack of potatoes.. Catholic and Protestant historians love to deny any link seperate from Catholicism that has churches tracing themselves from today right back to Jesus and His disciples.. and they have fodder because the records of these churches are so sparse.

But that does not mean they did not exist! Or that the churches around now have no link to them! If their records were kept well, then maybe we would see an unbroken line happening of churches going from Jesus and His Disciples to today.. that is seperate from Catholicism and Protestants, that teaches church as only local.

The fact is the records were mostly destroyed by Catholics and some Protestants.

Anyway.. The Trail of Blood is not historically inaccurate.. it is just broad and there is more detail if you trace out the references it contains that show it to be sound.

course.. no one is going to accept this..

oh well