Does baptism save us or not?

[PaladinGirl]

Hi everyone. I do not believe that baptism saves us as a Baptist but I have come across some Bible verses that seem to imply that baptism does save us. How do you explain these Bible verses?

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Act 2:38 ESV And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Joh 3:5 ESV Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Act 22:16 ESV And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Please help! :help:

[nzguy]

yeah with those verses.. you have to look at the other verses in teh chapters surrounding them to give them the right meaning in context. Also compare them with verses like 'whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved' and

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

verses like these have no baptism in them.. baptism comes after salvation.

Another thing is, in the New Testament times... most people were pretty much baptised straight after salvation.. so you see in the wording in scripture the two are in the same verse because they happen one after the other.

And another thing is you are quoting from ESV.. which I don't know much about.. but I do know the KJV and NKJV are sound translations and may give a better view of what baptism really is.

The key thing tho.. is always put verses into context.. line upon line.. line upon line.. precept upon precept.. that is how you establish biblical truth

Finally.. the verse of being born of water and teh spirit.. the water in this verse is the water of the womb.. the figure of being born as a baby.. as the picture of salvation.. it isn't baptism at all. It is where you are born in to God's family through the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.. the water being the forgiveness of sin washing away transgressions forever.. and the spirit being the Holy Spirit coming into your life to seal you.

so there you go :)

[PaladinGirl]

yeah with those verses.. you have to look at the other verses in teh chapters surrounding them to give them the right meaning in context. Also compare them with verses like 'whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved' and

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

verses like these have no baptism in them.. baptism comes after salvation.

Another thing is, in the New Testament times... most people were pretty much baptised straight after salvation.. so you see in the wording in scripture the two are in the same verse because they happen one after the other.

And another thing is you are quoting from ESV.. which I don't know much about.. but I do know the KJV and NKJV are sound translations and may give a better view of what baptism really is.

The key thing tho.. is always put verses into context.. line upon line.. line upon line.. precept upon precept.. that is how you establish biblical truth

Finally.. the verse of being born of water and teh spirit.. the water in this verse is the water of the womb.. the figure of being born as a baby.. as the picture of salvation.. it isn't baptism at all. It is where you are born in to God's family through the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.. the water being the forgiveness of sin washing away transgressions forever.. and the spirit being the Holy Spirit coming into your life to seal you.

so there you go :)

Thank you. Your post is helpful. :)

[nzguy]

scripture without context is pre-text for subtext :)

[ImmersionX]

Amen to that!!! =)

[TimRout]

Hi everyone. I do not believe that baptism saves us as a Baptist but I have come across some Bible verses that seem to imply that baptism does save us. How do you explain these Bible verses?

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Act 2:38 ESV And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Joh 3:5 ESV Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Act 22:16 ESV And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Please help! :help:
Salvation is by grace, through faith, plus nothing.

1 Peter 3:21 is arguably a reference to spiritual baptism, which DOES save us. A person is baptized in the Holy Spirit when he/she is born again, regenerated, and indwelt. (All due respect to my Pentecostal friends).

Acts 2:38 is a translation/hermeneutic issue. Alternative reading renders: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, because of the forgiveness of your sins." In some cases, "for" and "because" are interchangable. Though "for" is the more literal rendering, "because" is implied by the context.

John 3:5 refers to birth water, not baptism water. The relationship between water and Spirit in verse five, corresponds to the relationship between flesh and Spirit in verse six. In other words, a person must be both physically born (from mamma's watery womb), and spiritually reborn in Christ.

Acts 22:16 is again a translation/hermeneutic issue. The clause "wash away your sins calling on His name" is the saving part. Notice that the verse does not specify that baptism actually does the saving. The blood of Christ washes away sins. Baptism merely signifies a person's decision to receive Christ's cleansing by faith. All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved [Romans 10:13]. If this were not so, the thief on the cross would have been doomed, since he never had the opportunity to undergo water baptism [Luke 23:43].

Hope this helps.

[arunma]

PaladinGirl, not two days ago your signature said "Truth is Catholicism." I know that for a few years now, you've been oscillating on this forum between Catholicism and Christianity. One day you'll say you're a Catholic, the next day you'll say you're a Baptists. What's going on here?

[PaladinGirl]

PaladinGirl, not two days ago your signature said "Truth is Catholicism." I know that for a few years now, you've been oscillating on this forum between Catholicism and Christianity. One day you'll say you're a Catholic, the next day you'll say you're a Baptists. What's going on here?

I did not create this thread to discuss my faith changes. Stick to the topic please. If you are interested in my faith changes, PM me.

[ImmersionX]

Also the ESV is a very sound translation...my pastor uses the NKJV from the pulpit, and I have absolutely no problem with following along. I read the NASB(pre update) for years, and I put the ESV on the same level of translation.

Peace.

[ImmersionX]

Baptism is an outward sign, a public profession of faith if you will after and only after one's salvation experience.

From Wikipedia:

Advocates of believer's baptism argue that the New Testament does not describe instances of infant baptism, and that during the New Testament era, the early church required converts to have conscious, deliberate faith in Jesus Christ.

You've seen alot of the bible verses in support of this already. I hope this helps a little bit.

God Bless.

[nzguy]

yah this should cover it! You got some great responses there paladin girl

[BetaMan]

I believe that I was baptized BEFORE I was truly saved!
Should I get RE-baptized now that I KNOW I'm saved?

[nzguy]

yah you should man!

[BetaMan]

That's what I think too...

Thanks!

[WarEagle]

scripture without context is pre-text for subtext :)

I don't think that's how that saying goes.

It should be "Text without context is pretext for prooftext".

[WarEagle]

I believe that I was baptized BEFORE I was truly saved!
Should I get RE-baptized now that I KNOW I'm saved?

Yes.

The piont of baptism is that you have been crucified with Christ and raised to new life in Him.

If you weren't saved, then you weren't crucified or raised. You were still dead.

[PrincetonGuy]

Edited by PrincetonGuy

[DeaconDean]

Mod Hat on!

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/coolhandluke4.JPG

What we have here, is, failure ta communicate!



Ok, here wew go.

In the front page of this room, in the "sticky" section there is a link to a bunch of Baptist confessions of faith. This are summaries of what we believe and all of then reflect the belief that baptism is an ordinance that we do in obedience to Jesus' command. There is no salvaic properties involved in being baptized. Being baptized does "make" us saved. We are saved by the grace of God through faith. (cf Eph. 2:8-9)

Now if you insist on arguing that baptism saves, the I insist you read these:

Some of the Baptist associations and conventions are:

The Baptist Faith and Message (SBC) http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp (http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp)
Conservative Baptist Convention statement of faith http://www.cbamerica.org/cba_resources/doctrinal_statement.html (http://www.cbamerica.org/cba_resources/doctrinal_statement.html)
American Baptist Statement of faith http://www.abc-usa.org/identity/bible.html (http://www.abc-usa.org/identity/bible.html)
7th day Baptist Statement of Belief http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/7DB...nID=1535472826 (http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/7DB/Covenant_People_EN.asp?SnID=1535472826)
National Association of Freewill Baptists Statement of Beliefs http://nafwb.net/tp42/page.asp?ID=766 (http://nafwb.net/tp42/page.asp?ID=766)
British Baptists Statement of beliefs http://www.snbc.org.uk/thebaptistfaith.html (http://www.snbc.org.uk/thebaptistfaith.html)
Baptist Missionary Alliance Doctrinal Statement http://www.fortworthbaptistchurch.or...AADoctrine.asp (http://www.fortworthbaptistchurch.org/Visitors/BMAADoctrine.asp)




Some of the historic confessions are:

1. The London Baptist Confession of 1689 http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html (http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html)
2. The Philadelphia Confession of 1742 http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc14.htm (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc14.htm)
3. The 1644 LBC http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bc1644.htm (http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bc1644.htm)
4. The New Hampshire confession http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/nh_conf.htm (http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/nh_conf.htm)
5. The Goat Yard confession (J. Gill) http://members.aol.com/dwibclc/goat.htm (http://members.aol.com/dwibclc/goat.htm)


Some excellent articles about Baptists:
1. 1. James Boyce's Abstract of Principles http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/aop/english.htm (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/aop/english.htm)
2. 2.. What makes a Baptist a Baptist http://www.baptistdistinctives.org/textonly2.html (http://www.baptistdistinctives.org/textonly2.html)
3. 3. Other articles on Baptiss http://www.baptistdistinctives.org/articles_list.html (http://www.baptistdistinctives.org/articles_list.html)
4. 4. Historic Baptist Distinctives http://www.fbinstitute.com/moore/baptistdist.html (http://www.fbinstitute.com/moore/baptistdist.html)


Which can be found here:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6954102

Mod Hat off!

God Bless

Till all are one.

[ImmersionX]

Perhaps this thread can be moved to the "Ask a Baptist" section? It's a legit question on Paladin Girl's part. I haven't checked to see how many other question's concerning Believer's Baptism there are overall here.

Peace.

[DeaconDean]

Perhaps this thread can be moved to the "Ask a Baptist" section? It's a legit question on Paladin Girl's part. I haven't checked to see how many other question's concerning Believer's Baptism there are overall here.

Peace.

I quote:


Baptism & the Lord's Supper
Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water. …It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus.


http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp

I quoted the SBC's position on Baptism because I am Southern Baptist. You may look for yourself, historically, and traditionally, Baptists have not, and do not believe that baptism saves a person.

Plain and simple.

And in spite of what she has asked, that is fact and it is undisputable both here and in the "Ask a Baptist" area.

Now back on April 13, 2008, this member was in here bragging on her being re-baptized, see this thread:

"I got re-baptized tonight!"

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7136777&highlight=Baptism

If you'll look, there are literally 5 pages in the Baptist area with questions regarding "baptism."

This subject has been hashed over numerous times.

That is why I don't bother to deate this anymore.

The historic Baptist confessions make it plain, baptism does not save us, it is an ordainance that Jesus gave that is to be obeyed unless there are circumstances which will not allow it.

Period.

And a lot of us are tired of this member one week claiming to be baptist, the next week a Catholic, and the next week a Mormon, and then starting all over again.

Jesus said:

"I would thou wert cold or hot." -Rev. 3:15 (KJV)

Choose a side, make a stand, right or wrong, choose one and be faithful.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[ImmersionX]

Welp thanks for that.
Don't preach to me about Believer's Baptism brother. I asked a legit question.

As far as the OP's past here...it's not my concern. From what I understand there is a specific reason she flipflops in her claim to different denominations all of the time.
That's all I'm gonna say.

Peace and I'm out.

[FreeinChrist]

Welp thanks for that.
Don't preach to me about Believer's Baptism brother. I asked a legit question.

As far as the OP's past here...it's not my concern. From what I understand there is a specific reason she flipflops in her claim to different denominations all of the time.
That's all I'm gonna say.

Peace and I'm out.


It's more a matter of keeping this forum a safe haven for Baptists. If we allowed debate for a nonBaptist view in this forum, you'd find that this forum would soon be the target of a person(s) who was concerned about proselyting us to their theology, thinking they are trying to save our sorry souls from hell because we are not them.

[PaladinGirl]

Welp thanks for that.
Don't preach to me about Believer's Baptism brother. I asked a legit question.

As far as the OP's past here...it's not my concern. From what I understand there is a specific reason she flipflops in her claim to different denominations all of the time.
That's all I'm gonna say.

Peace and I'm out.

Yes, and that reason would be that I am mentally ill. I suffer from three mental illnesses: borderline personality disorder, major depression, and anxiety disorder. I believe the borderline personality disorder is what results in my flip flopping so much. The reason is that one of the things about borderline personality disorder is an instability in different things. I believe that this instability passes into my religion and belief system.

However, I am currently truly seeking out what the Truth is. Therefore, I am currently quite religiously confused.

Please understand that I am not a troll. My mental illness results in instability in various things, including relationships.

[nzguy]

can I suggest have a daily quiet time with God and read the Bible at the same time.. every day?

That worked for me!

[PaladinGirl]

can I suggest have a daily quiet time with God and read the Bible at the same time.. every day?

That worked for me!

I already have a daily quiet time with God but I do not currently read the Bible every day. I believe I will start doing so though.

[Lorren]

Hi everyone. I do not believe that baptism saves us as a Baptist but I have come across some Bible verses that seem to imply that baptism does save us. How do you explain these Bible verses?

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Act 2:38 ESV And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Joh 3:5 ESV Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Act 22:16 ESV And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Please help! :help:


First of all, why were you baptised in the first place. I believe a person should know the true meaning of being baptised, before they are baptised. I have always believed it to be born again. Born into the family of God. All the old sins are washed away, and now, you start new, as a "child of God." That is what I believe baptism is all about. If you are baptised for the right reasons, yes! you are saved. Praise the Lord!!

[nzguy]

It's also advisable to not just pick out random verses from the bible.. but study sections.. systematically.. because then you can establish context in chapters and get broader understanding of scripture :)

anyway.. it's awesome that you are choosing to do that Paladin Girl!!

(Mat 5:3) Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:4) Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
(Mat 5:5) Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
(Mat 5:6) Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
(Mat 5:7) Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
(Mat 5:8) Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
(Mat 5:9) Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
(Mat 5:10) Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:11) Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

[PaladinGirl]

First of all, why were you baptised in the first place. I believe a person should know the true meaning of being baptised, before they are baptised. I have always believed it to be born again. Born into the family of God. All the old sins are washed away, and now, you start new, as a "child of God." That is what I believe baptism is all about. If you are baptised for the right reasons, yes! you are saved. Praise the Lord!!

When I was baptized, I didn't really have any doubt as to the nature of baptism.

[FreeinChrist]

Then you are fine. Don't worry - let God handle it.

[PaladinGirl]

Then you are fine. Don't worry - let God handle it.

Ok thank you FreeinChrist. :)

[Harry3142]

There is a denomination which teaches that baptism by immersion is necessary in order to be saved. However, once the person does this, then they say that they must now perform other acts in order to be saved. I've seen this myself, as I was in this church for three years back in the 1960's. The leaders of that church use a 'carrot on a stick' manipulative form of direction in order to bring their congregants into abject obedience to their wishes and desires. For them salvation is always 'just one more act' away.

Scripture is quite clear as to what is essential for salvation and what is done as a result of accepting it. What is essential is summed up in this passage of Scripture:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or, 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:5-13,NIV)

There are those among us who would have us ignore this, and other passages like this, and instead accept what they say as necessary for our salvation. These people are after wealth and power, not enlightenment and salvation, and some will do whatever it takes to attain their goal, even if it means leading astray those who genuinely search for the means of salvation. This is why we conservatives keep saying to check what is told you against the Scriptures.

[PrincetonGuy]

There is a denomination which teaches that baptism by immersion is necessary in order to be saved. However, once the person does this, then they say that they must now perform other acts in order to be saved. I've seen this myself, as I was in this church for three years back in the 1960's. The leaders of that church use a 'carrot on a stick' manipulative form of direction in order to bring their congregants into abject obedience to their wishes and desires. For them salvation is always 'just one more act' away.

Scripture is quite clear as to what is essential for salvation and what is done as a result of accepting it. What is essential is summed up in this passage of Scripture:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or, 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:5-13,NIV)

There are those among us who would have us ignore this, and other passages like this, and instead accept what they say as necessary for our salvation. These people are after wealth and power, not enlightenment and salvation, and some will do whatever it takes to attain their goal, even if it means leading astray those who genuinely search for the means of salvation. This is why we conservatives keep saying to check what is told you against the Scriptures.

The very large majority of Christians today believe that water baptism is efficacious for salvation; that is, they believe that water baptism is a constituent part of the grace of God by which we are saved through faith. Grace is the dynamic of God by which He saves us from sin and its consequences through our faith in Christ. Water baptism in the Old Testament and rabbinic tradition is very closely associated with cleansing from sin.

This doctrine was held by all of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon based upon their theological views. Indeed, the most prominent of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers wrote that anyone who denied that the grace of God is conferred upon believers in Christ through water baptism is a “heretic.” No responsible Christians, however, have ever taught or believed that water baptism is a work of the Law or that Christians are saved by keeping any of the works of the Law.

Baptist scholars who believe that water baptism is efficacious for salvation believe that the grace of God is conferred upon believers in Christ through water baptism. Other Baptist scholars believe that the Apostle Peter explicitly taught that water baptism saves us (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:18-22) but that Peter was mistaken. Since most Baptist scholars are employed by institutions that would terminate their employment if they publicly shared such views, most Baptist scholars holding these views are very discrete in expressing them. As the chairman of the department of religion in one institution put it to me privately, “Please do not be under the impression that my personal theology is reflected in what I write and teach.”

My personal belief is that the grace of God is conferred upon believers in Christ independently of water baptism and that water baptism by immersion should, when reasonable, follow one’s confession of faith in Christ.

[HappyChicken]

Yes, and that reason would be that I am mentally ill. I suffer from three mental illnesses: borderline personality disorder, major depression, and anxiety disorder. I believe the borderline personality disorder is what results in my flip flopping so much. The reason is that one of the things about borderline personality disorder is an instability in different things. I believe that this instability passes into my religion and belief system.

However, I am currently truly seeking out what the Truth is. Therefore, I am currently quite religiously confused.

Please understand that I am not a troll. My mental illness results in instability in various things, including relationships.


Hi Paladingirl, I have suffered from mental illnesses too (OCD and anxiety)...and I have too struggled with denominations some. I have gotten really confused, just as you. Since you realize you have these disorders, then you should be able to see that for what it is, and pick a church. When you feel the urge to flop around, recognize it as part of your mental illness and resist it. Otherwise, it's going to continue to take over and make you miserable. It's hard at first....but it will become easier, and you will feel better...I think. You ought to try it for a month. Hope you start feeling better.