The "Rapture" and Salvation

[ImmersionX]

I believe in the Second Coming/Glorious Return of our Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe in a "second second coming"...I personally do not believe in the dispensational view of a "pre-tribulational" rapture of the true church. I do not see any evidence in the Bible that points to this viewpoint. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 shows me no definitive proof of the concept, and yet my pastor teaches this to our church. I just take it in stride....but my question is this, and I have yet to get the time to discuss this with our pastor:

Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???

God Bless.

PS: I guess my viewpoint is of a pre-millenial return of our Lord Jesus Christ to reign for 1000 yrs on earth, then judgement!?!?! I'm honestly not convinced of a "rapture" of the church at all I guess.(as of now...doing research, keeping an open mind.)

[DeaconDean]

I believe in the Second Coming/Glorious Return of our Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe in a "second second coming"...I personally do not believe in the dispensational view of a "pre-tribulational" rapture of the true church. I do not see any evidence in the Bible that points to this viewpoint. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 shows me no definitive proof of the concept, and yet my pastor teaches this to our church. I just take it in stride....but my question is this, and I have yet to get the time to discuss this with our pastor:

Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???

God Bless.

PS: I guess my viewpoint is of a pre-millenial return of our Lord Jesus Christ to reign for 1000 yrs on earth, then judgement!?!?! I'm honestly not convinced of a "rapture" of the church at all I guess.(as of now...doing research, keeping an open mind.)

Tell you what, let me ask you a few simple questions first.

What is an angel?

God Bless

Till all are one.

[trentlogain]

Heh. Nice reply and not to derail the thread at all, but I've been wondering about angels recently, too.

[DeaconDean]

Heh. Nice reply and not to derail the thread at all, but I've been wondering about angels recently, too.

Its not a derail because angels has a direct bearing of what proceeds next.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[ImmersionX]

An angel is a supernatural being created by God to serve as an agent of revelation.

[TimRout]

Orthodox doctrine requires a belief in the real, personal, bodily, glorious, immanent return of the Lord Jesus Christ to rule and reign over creation, in victory over sin, death, hell and Satan. One need not be premillennial to be saved.

[ImmersionX]

I agree Tim...but I'm a bit confused...when people talke of pre-trib/post-trib/mid-trib and pre-millenial/post, etc.....do each refer to the Rapture vs the actual Glorious Return/Second Coming of our Lord repsectively?

EDIT: I was raised Roman Catholic, have been a Baptist since 1994ish....but this is the first church that I've been a member of that has actually preached this type of thing from the pulpit. My pastor preaches in an expository manner, ie one BOOK at a time, all verses. We just started the Book of the Revelation.

God Bless.

[Knight]

Your convictions regarding the second coming have no bearing on your salvation.

Apart from the real return of the Lord as Tim articulated...

[FreeinChrist]

Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???

Your endtime view does not affect your salvation at all. I would say that even a full preterist who beleives He already returned is still saved if he beleives and follows Christ.

I do think it is important though to understand the the concept of a future judgment and beleive that Revelation can be very conforting to the beleiver.

[nzguy]

The book of Revelation is always a difficult one to pin down and tease out all the right truth from context. I remember a Pastor coming from overseas to show his bent on it.. and it seemed to fit well with scripture.. but even he said things along the lines of 'this is the way I see it'. But yeah.. from what my church believes... it is in the pre-millineal return of Christ, with the 1000 year reign afterwards. The rapture not being of 'the church' but of every believer in the Kingdom of God on earth at that time. Cos I see church as always local with no universal aspect. In Greek- 'ecclessia'.. for me every believer living and dead is part of the Family of God.. and the Body of Christ is local bodies of churches around teh world who are independent of eachother. Like- you would never say 'the universal dog'... yet we use this term for church... in teh Greek the word for church is 'ecclessia' which is always a congregation or assembly. The language of 'Body' is figurative.. not a literal body of Christ.. but like a body of water.. a body of students.. always local, always visible.

Anyway... what this means for the rapture is that it isn't about rapturing 'the church' but individual believers.

[BetaMan]

Yes, but "individual believers" IS "the church"!
Otherwise, what is your definition of "the church".

[TimRout]

I agree Tim...but I'm a bit confused...when people talke of pre-trib/post-trib/mid-trib and pre-millenial/post, etc.....do each refer to the Rapture vs the actual Glorious Return/Second Coming of our Lord repsectively?

EDIT: I was raised Roman Catholic, have been a Baptist since 1994ish....but this is the first church that I've been a member of that has actually preached this type of thing from the pulpit. My pastor preaches in an expository manner, ie one BOOK at a time, all verses. We just started the Book of the Revelation.

God Bless.Opening Remarks
I can certainly understand your concern and confusion over the varioius eschatological (end times) positions. As a premillennial dispensationalist, I am going to do my level best to be as fair and broad as I possibly can be to those brethren who may differ with me.

How is it that conservative Bible believing Christians can have such divergent views on the end times? If the Scriptures are crystal clear on this issue, as they are on so many other doctrines, why the incongruities?

Ultimately, there are some undeniable, core, essential beliefs that all born again Christians must espouse. Namely, we believe in the real, personal, bodily, glorious, immanent return of the Lord Jesus Christ to rule and reign over His creation. Some evangelicals like to tag on the obvious, "...in victory over sin, death, hell and Satan", but you don't have to. It's assumed.

The Stuff You Need To Believe
Real return: Jesus spoke of His return as a literal event [Matthew 24:27]. Theologians like John Shelby Spong, who take Jesus’ words with great poetic license, are violating every principle of sound biblical hermeneutics. Jesus is really coming back. He wasn’t kidding. He wasn’t speaking metaphorically.

Personal return: Jesus Himself will come. He will not return through the agency of an angel or other representative [John 14:3].

Bodily return: Jesus departed this earth in His resurrection body, and He will return in that same body [Acts 1:11]. Those who claim Christ’s return will be merely spiritual are sadly mistaken.

Glorious return: While Jesus came to suffer and die in His first advent, He will come to reign supreme at His return [Revelation 19:11-18].

Immanent return: No man knows the day or the hour of the Lord’s return [Matthew 24:36]. Nevertheless, there remains no requisite prophesy yet unfulfilled that would hold back that day. Everything that needs to happen in history to make ready the day of Christ’s return has already taken place. Thus Jesus could return at any time. He may come in a thousand years, or He may come before you finish reading this line. His return is therefore said to be immanent [Matthew 24:44].

The Four Primary Schools Of End Times Thinking
The following positions are described succinctly and (to my discredit) deficiently. Nevertheless, I will attempt to sketch an overview of each viewpoint, beginning with the most literal hermeneutic approach, and ending with the most figurative. Please keep in mind that each of these eschatological positions falls within the sphere of biblical orthodoxy, and each espouses the above essentials. Thus the differences between these positions are not related to salvific doctrine, but secondary issues of less eternal significance. Christians must unite on the essentials, but are free to debate and disagree over the secondary stuff. Each of the following positions has its weaknesses.

Dispensational Premillennialism: This position generally holds that Christ will appear in the sky at the first resurrection/rapture and retrieve from the earth all who truly belong to Him, both living and dead. Following this event, the world will experience a period of severe judgment usually referred to as the Tribulation. This Tribulation period is typically believed to be seven years in duration, though some dispensationalists have proposed other possible spans. Christ returns to the earth at the end of the Tribulation and defeats the forces of Satan at the battle of Armageddon, locking the devil into a prison pit and launching the Millennium – a one thousand year reign of Christ upon this earth. Following the Millennium, Satan is released for a brief time to engage in one final battle, usually called the Battle Of Gog And Magog. After his defeat, Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, the second resurrection (of the wicked) takes place, and final judgment occurs. Thereafter, this earth is done away with and replaced by a new earth, along with a new heaven. And so begins eternity future.
Hermeneutic weakness: Dispensationalists have a very difficult time proving from Scripture that the rapture and return stand at opposite ends of the Tribulation.
NOTE: Some dispensationalists believe the rapture does not take place until the middle of the Tribulation, though this position is uncommon.

Historical Premillennialism: This position generally holds that Christ will return at the end of the Tribulation. Thus, the first resurrection/rapture, and the return of Christ at Armageddon, and final judgment, are believed to be immediately successive events. The Millennium, and much of the Book of Revelation, are seen as metaphorical reflections of church history. Hence the term “historical” premillennialism.
Hermeneutic weakness: The return of the Lord Jesus Christ is immanent and utterly unpredictable. According to this view, however, one need only observe the rise of the Antichrist at the outset of the Tribulation, begin a seven year countdown, and presto – there’s Jesus.

Amillennialism: This position is broad and complex with a vast variety of opinion evident among its proponents. While acknowledging the actuality of Christ’s return as stipulated in the previous section, amillennialists generally view all eschatologically oriented passages figuratively, seeing in them a reflection of various universal truths. These truths often center on the age old struggle between good and evil, and the various trials and tribulations faced by the church over the centuries. As a rule, amillennialists believe we are now living in the Millennium – a non-specific time period of grace leading up to the return of Christ. There is no literal Tribulation. There is no literal Antichrist. And in a manner similar to historical premillennialism, the resurrection of the dead is conjoined; no distinction is made between the first resurrection of the saved, and the second resurrection of the damned.
Hermeneutic weakness: If one abandons a literal reading of Scripture in these matters, one is left asking the question, “What, then, do these passages truly mean?” The extraordinary level of disagreement among amillennial thinkers is evidence that they have yet to settle that issue. Indeed, a less-than-literal reading of Scripture always makes it difficult to present an airtight case.

Postmillennialism: This positon generally holds that the world will continue to get better and better – continue to grow in righteousness and God consciousness – continue to come more and more under the influence of Christians – until at last Christ returns. Postmillennialism is, without a doubt, the most “positive” of the eschatological camps. Like amillennialism, this approach holds that we are now living in the Millennium and that Christ will return at the end of this age. Thus the prefix “post”. In most other respects, postmillennialism is nearly identical to amillennialism.
Hermeneutic weakness: Aside from the generic problems that always plague a figurative hermeneutic process, postmillennialism has difficulty explained why the Bible seems to predict a steady deterioration leading up to the end. Thus, postmillennialists often find it challenging to reconcile their theology with the realities of life on earth in the 21st century.

Closing Thoughts
As a conservative evangelical, I recognize the worth and thoughtfulness that has gone into each of the above eschatologies. As theologians, we are often called on to answer very specific questions that God has not chosen to reveal with total clarity in His Word. We do our best to prayerfully discern these truths from Scriptural clues, but we are keenly aware that our efforts are imperfect and always incomplete. I would encourage you to wholeheartedly adopt the essential doctrine of Christ’s return as spelled out at the top of our discussion. As to which eschatological school you should affiliate with, there’s no rush to make a decision. If your Pastor is premil/pretrib, then glean from him a deep and thorough understanding of that position. Don’t be afraid to seek the counsel of those who might hold a different eschatological view. And remember, if in the end you find yourself hopelessly frustrated and confused by the whole silly thing, there remains one final, legitimate eschatology for you to consider.

Panmillennialism: It’ll all pan out in the end.


EDIT: A Note On "Preterism"

Preterism: Recently, a friend asked me if I might amend this post with a note on "Preterism", a sub-doctrine of some eschatologies. Preterism, sometimes called "Partial Preterism", is often a component of Historical Premillennial, Amillennial and Postmillennial eschatologies. In a nut shell, Preterists believe that many of the events considered to be yet future by Dispensationalists, have in fact already taken place in history. Specifically, Preterists identify such things as the Tribulation, the Antichrist, and the Day of the Lord, as having been fullfilled when Roman General Titus conquered Jerusalem in 70AD. I did not specify Preterism in my above post, since it is not, in fact, a separate eschatology unto itself.

Heremeutic Weakness: Preterism assumes that most of the prophesies contained in the Book of Revelation were fulfilled -- literally or figuratively -- at the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. However, the vast weight of conservative historical scholarship suggests the Apostle John penned Revelation around 95AD. If the Preterist assumes 95AD as the date of authorship, then the verasity of Revelation is called into question since many of its presumably predictive elements would have already taken place. On the other hand, it is exceedingly difficult for the Preterist to make a case for Revalation having been written before 70AD.

Pantelism: This view, sadly called "Full Preterism" by some, considers all biblical prophesies to have been fulfilled by 70AD, including a non-literal, non-physical return of Christ. Pantelism is a sub-doctrine of Universalism and is purely heretical.

EDIT: A Note On "Israel"

The Significance Of Israel: Dispensationalists see a clear dichotomy between God's earthly people (Israel), and God's heavenly people (the church). Consequently, most dispensational thinkers believe the nation of Israel will play a significant and unique role in end times events, and the millennial kingdom. Historical Premillennialists, Amillennialists, and Postmillennialists view the church (all saved persons everywhere) as a covenantal continuation of Old Testament Israel, such that -- for all intents and purposes -- Israel is the church.

[nzguy]

the church- is always a local and visible congregation with no universal aspect to it.. the universal is the Kingdom of God and the Family of God.

Look at the Greek New Testament... every time the word church is there it is ecclessia- which is always an assembly or congregation. There were many English bibles before KJV that had congregation instead of church each time, but King James being from the church of England as a universal church.. ordered the old ecclessiastical words to be replaced with the word 'church'.

So body of Christ = a local assembly of baptised believers, an ecclessia.

a good book that shows the biblical attestation of this is Real Churches or a Fog, by S.E. Anderson.

so yeah.. when the rapture comes it won't be of 'the church' but individual believers

[ImmersionX]

Oh don't get me wrong....I've studied Revelation for a long while now, and well...without opening a can of worms....I don't believe in a pre-trib Rapture, and see no evidence to support that idea *whinces*. But my pastor is adamant about this subject, in favor of a pretrib rapture of the church. the concept is entirely new to me, my wife is like "...oh yeah, didn't you read Left Behind...?"
...

So without further derailing of my own thread...thanks for the responses regarding my intended question. I too don't believe that adherance to a certain "type" of end times rapture is vital to salvation, but surely it can enhance one's personal faith.
I've been doing a lot of research about this subject, and it seems that it's one of those things that gets people riled up big time when brought up as a topic of discussion(not just on forums).

[beloved57]

I believe in the Second Coming/Glorious Return of our Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe in a "second second coming"...I personally do not believe in the dispensational view of a "pre-tribulational" rapture of the true church.


Its not a true doctine, the 2nd coming and the rapture will occur together..

1 thess 4:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

this is the same event as matt 24:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [B]31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Its at the very end of the great tribukation period in which we are presently in..

Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???


I believe first of all, that salvation itself rest soley on the blood of christ, if christ shed his blood for you, you are saved no matter what. Now, I do believe also that those saved will be eventually given the truth of eschatological events, simply because the spirit teaches them all things..

So if you are really an elect of God, he will clear up this issue for you. I do believe your pastor is teaching a false doctrine, so take that for whats it worth to you..

[DeaconDean]

An angel is a supernatural being created by God to serve as an agent of revelation.

To a certain degree, yes, you are correct, but more importantly, angels are messengers.


"Angel" in Biblical Hebrew is mal'ak . Its main meaning is "messenger". It's the same name given to the prophetic book of the last of the Prophets. That book's author has no name, just the title of Messenger. He could've been the editor who gathered the Prophetic books together so his people could remember and prepare for what was to come. Some angeliphiles think Malachi is an angel, but the book's content and its presence among the Prophets make it certain that Malachi is a human messenger, a prophet. In Islam, Mohammed is called "the prophet" and "messenger of God", but is clearly not in any way an angel.


http://www.spirithome.com/angels.html

Angels are messengers first and foremost. It was an angel who appeared to Mary and told her of the choice of her as the earthly mother of Christ. It was an angel who told Joseph not to fear taking Mary as his wife, etc.

Angels are primarily messengers.

Now for my second question: being as since angels are a "created being," can angels lie?

However, in light of what I told you would come as a result of this sort of discussion, if you wish, we can continue this in private. PM me and tell me when would a good time to be on-line and I'll try my best to be here. Also, I know of a chat box we can go to talk if your interested.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Izdaari]

Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???
Not part of salvation, and IMHO not terribly important otherwise. Just interesting, though hard to resolve.

Though I've studied it some, I still have no idea whose interpretations of the end-times prophecies are correct. I call myself a pan-millennialist -- that is, trust in the Lord, and it will all pan out!

[BetaMan]

I agree. I tend to be a Pre-Trib, Pre-Mill myself, but I don't believe it effects one's salvation which way one falls in this category.

It's like, some denominations sprinkle, some dunk.
Some believe in drinking, some don't.
Some have music in church, some don't.

What effects salvation is what you do with Christ while you are here on earth!

[ImmersionX]

Originally Posted by ImmersionX http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47027015#post47027015)
An angel is a supernatural being created by God to serve as an agent of revelation.


To a certain degree, yes, you are correct, but more importantly, angels are messengers.



http://www.spirithome.com/angels.html

Angels are messengers first and foremost. It was an angel who appeared to Mary and told her of the choice of her as the earthly mother of Christ. It was an angel who told Joseph not to fear taking Mary as his wife, etc.

Angels are primarily messengers.

Now for my second question: being as since angels are a "created being," can angels lie?

However, in light of what I told you would come as a result of this sort of discussion, if you wish, we can continue this in private. PM me and tell me when would a good time to be on-line and I'll try my best to be here. Also, I know of a chat box we can go to talk if your interested.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I do not mind keeping this in public....perhaps since it's been a very civil thread thus far, and in keeping with that line...we all can use this as a tool for CIVIL fellowship here.

So to answer you 2nd question:

"Can an angel lie?"

Due to the fact that Satan is a fallen angel...I would have to say that Yes, angels can lie.


Peace and God Bless.

[nzguy]

yah.. but Satan has a different status as being fallen (along with the droves of angels that became demons with him).. so why hasn't this happened again with other angels?

Are we getting into the realm of God's plans? Cos now that is getting to places where our knowledge becomes less than a speck of dust.

[DeaconDean]

ISo to answer you 2nd question:

"Can an angel lie?"

Due to the fact that Satan is a fallen angel...I would have to say that Yes, angels can lie.


Peace and God Bless.

First off, the angels that fell with Satan are no longer angels, they are demons. There is a big difference.

Secondly, lying did not cause Satan to fall. Pride, vanity, and greed, caused Satan to fall. He wanted to be like God. He wantewd to exault his throne above God's, but he did not lie. (cf. Eze. 28; Isa. 14)

Thirdly, according to the Bible, since man is made a little lower than the angels, but will eventually be made higher than the angels, according to the Quran, Satan (Iblis) was ordered to bow down to God's creation, Adam, and refused to do so. (S. 2:34; 7:11-12; 15:28-31) So this as well could have played a part in Satan's fall.(Note: I'm in no way espousing the Quran, however, the account merits reading)

Since you want to get technical, let me rephrase the question.

Of the angels that have not fallen, of the angels who still serve God, can these angels lie?

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Izdaari]

Since you want to get technical, let me rephrase the question.

Of the angels that have not fallen, of the angels who still serve God, can these angels lie?
Since they are free-willed beings (that some of them rebelled established that clearly enough), I would have to assume they can. But it would be vastly out of character for one to do so and I can't imagine why one would, unless the angel was beginning to go over to the other side. At this point, I would say that was infinitesimally improbable, since all those who were so inclined would already have done so. I would (with about 99.999% confidence) trust an angel to tell the truth at all times. The only issue would be verifying that it was really an angel speaking and not a demon posing as an angel.

[DeaconDean]

You know what? I give up.

You guys want to think that angels can lie, and that angels can continue to disobey God even eons after the rebellion in heaven, fine.

I do know that the angels mentioned in the bible are not like that. But I guess the angels Gabriel you had to be suspicious of when he told MAry of the miracle God would do in her. And I guess you have to be suspicious of the Angel Michael too. Perhaps he was fighting with Satan over the body of Moses for his own person gain. And I guess we should suspect the angels who attended to Jesus after the temptation and after the prayer in the garden.

And I guess we really should suspect the angel who took the coal off the altar and touched Isaiah's tongue and purified him.

You guys have an awful low opinion of God's angels.

This can serve no purpose, since everybody is highly suspect of angels, I cannot continue in this discussion. You guys can carry on.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Izdaari]

"I would (with about 99.999% confidence) trust an angel to tell the truth at all times."

You think that's "highly suspect" and an "awful low" opinion? It's a far higher opinion than I have of any human being. :scratch:

Oh, well. God bless! :wave:

[ImmersionX]

Well there ya go....call a mod...lock the thread I guess.
Thankyou for all the responses. Remind me to hold back when starting a thread from now on(even though I won't. ;))

Bottom line of the Angel discussion: Angels, as in God's Angel's, not the fallen, nor demons....will not lie. Whether they can or cannot is irrelevant to me due to my overall faith. My faith dictates that an Angel will never lie. They are divine beings created on the order of God, under God, above man, for God. When I defined an Angel as an "agent of revelation" earlier in this thread...I believe that calling them messangers of God is almost the same definition, although they wouldn't just deliver any sort of common message, due to the fact that God doesn't give ordinary messages to his people. So to clarify my stance, a divine message, ie any message from God...is revelation to man. I'm sorry Dean you feel as if you have to go from this thread, I was very curious as to where you were going with this....I see no need for continuing this via PM though because it's a serious enough subject to where a public thread may benefit everyone.
Anywho...

Peace and God Bless all.

[TimRout]

the church- is always a local and visible congregation with no universal aspect to it.. the universal is the Kingdom of God and the Family of God.

Look at the Greek New Testament... every time the word church is there it is ecclessia- which is always an assembly or congregation. There were many English bibles before KJV that had congregation instead of church each time, but King James being from the church of England as a universal church.. ordered the old ecclessiastical words to be replaced with the word 'church'.

So body of Christ = a local assembly of baptised believers, an ecclessia.

a good book that shows the biblical attestation of this is Real Churches or a Fog, by S.E. Anderson.

so yeah.. when the rapture comes it won't be of 'the church' but individual believersIn your view, then, was Jesus speaking of a specific local church in Matthew 16:18? "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

[DeaconDean]

Jesus is coming soon!

Troublesome times are here, filling mens hearts with fear,
Freedom we all hold dear, now is at stake.
Humbling your heart to God saves from the chastening rod.
Seek the way pilgrims trod, Christians awake!

Chorus:
Jesus is coming soon, morning or night or noon,
Many will meet their doom, trumpets will sound.
All of the dead shall rise, righteous meet in the sky,
Going where no one dies, Heavenward bound!

Troubles will soon be o’er, happy forever more,
When we meet on that shore, free from all care.
Rising up in the sky, telling this world goodbye,
Homeward we then will fly, glory to share.

Chorus:
Jesus is coming soon, morning or night or noon,
Many will meet their doom, trumpets will sound.
All of the dead shall rise, righteous meet in the sky,
Going where no one dies, Heavenward bound!

Music and Lyrics by R.E. Winsett

"And Jesus said, I AM: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -Mark 14:62

God Bless

Till all are one.

[ImmersionX]

Is that a pre-trib or post-trib song? ::wink::

[DeaconDean]

I had no intention of continuing this discussion, but was asked to continue.

So, for their sake, I'll continue.

The question was asked:

I believe in the Second Coming/Glorious Return of our Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe in a "second second coming"...I personally do not believe in the dispensational view of a "pre-tribulational" rapture of the true church. I do not see any evidence in the Bible that points to this viewpoint. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 shows me no definitive proof of the concept, and yet my pastor teaches this to our church. I just take it in stride....but my question is this, and I have yet to get the time to discuss this with our pastor:

Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???

To get back to what I was going to, I asked about angels. Most here are confused on the doctrine concerning angels. The angels in heaven now, cannot lie. Just keep that in mind. And they are messengers sent from God to mankind.

"aggellw" one sent, a messenger, angel

"kai tauta eipwn blepontwn autwn ephrqh, kai nefelh upelaben auton apo twn ofqalmwn autwn. kai wV atenizonteV hsan eiV ton ouranon poreuomenou autou, kai idou andreV duo pareisthkeisan autoiV en esqhsesi leukaiV, oi kai eipan, andreV galilaioi, ti esthkate [em]bleponteV eiV ton ouranon; outoV o ihsouV o analhmfqeiV af umwn eiV ton ouranon outwV eleusetai on tropon eqeasasqe auton poreuomenon eiV ton ouranon." -Acts 1:9-11 (GNT)

Or, as the King James Version says:

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." -Acts 1:9-11 (KJV)

What I wanted to show is this, this Greek word: "andreV". The King James renders it "men," and rightly so because the Greek lexicon I use, "The New Analytical Greek Lexicon," gives this definition:

"a male person of full age, as opposed to a child or female, a husband, a man, human being, individual"

Now, as the disciples were watching Jesus ascend up into heaven, as soon as the clouds receive him, these two "men" suddenly appear. Well, who are these two "men?" Why angels of course. John Gill comments:

behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; that is, two angels in the form of men; it being usual with them to appear in human form: these on a sudden appeared and stood on the earth just by them; though the Ethiopic version renders it, "they stood above them", as if they were in the air over their heads; and they appeared in white apparel, as the angel at the sepulchre in Mt 28:2 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Matthew/28.html#2) which was a symbol both of their purity and holiness, and of their lustre and glory. The Ethiopic version renders it, "they were clothed with lightning"; they appeared in such a dazzling form, that it looked as if they were covered with lightning; as the angel that appeared at Christ's resurrection, his countenance is said to be as lightning; which must at once fix the attention of the disciples to them, and strike them with surprise: hence a "behold" is prefixed to this: and hereby they knew that they were not common and ordinary men, or mere men, but angels in such a form.

http://www.freegrace.net/gill/

Matthew Henry comments:

Having left these instructions with them, he leaves them (v. 9): When he had spoken these things, and had said all that he had to say, he blessed them (so we were told, Lu. 24:50); and while they beheld him, and had their eye fixed upon him, receiving his blessing, he was gradually taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight. We have here Christ’s ascending on high; not fetched away, as Elijah was, with a chariot of fire and horses of fire, but rising to heaven, as he rose from the grave, purely by his own power, his body being now, as the bodies of the saints will be at the resurrection, a spiritual body, and raised in power and incorruption. Observe, 1. He began his ascension in the sight of his disciples, even while they beheld...Two angels appeared to them, and delivered them a seasonable message from God. There was a world of angels ready to receive our Redeemer, now that he made his public entry into the Jerusalem above: we may suppose these two loth to be absent then; yet, to show how much Christ had at heart the concerns of his church on earth, he sent back to his disciples two of those that came to meet him, who appear as two men in white apparel, bright and glittering; for they know, according to the duty of their place, that they are really serving Christ when they are ministering to his servants on earth. Now we are told what the angels said to them,..The same Jesus who has given you your charge will come again to call you to an account how you have performed your trust; he, and not another,’’ Job 19:27. (2.) "He shall come in like manner. He is gone away in a cloud, and attended with angels; and, behold, he comes in the clouds, and with him an innumerable company of angels! He is gone up with a shout and with the sound of a trumpet (Ps. 47:5), and he will descend from heaven with a shout and with the trump of God, 1 Th. 4:16. You have now lost the sight of him in the clouds and in the air; and whither he is gone you cannot follow him now, but shall then, when you shall be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.’’ When we stand gazing and trifling, the consideration of our Master’s second coming should quicken and awaken us; and, when we stand gazing and trembling, the consideration of it should comfort and encourage us.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=ac&chapter=001

So, these two "angels" appear and tell the disciples:

"this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." -Acts 1:11 (KJV)

Now read what 2 Thes. 1:7-8 says:

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" -2 Thes. 1:7-8 (KJV)

Also of importance is Rev. 19:11:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." -Rev. 19:11 (KJV)

Now here you have several problems.

1) We know that Acts was written by Luke. As noted here:

The first question that confronts one when examining Luke and Acts is whether they were written by the same person, as indicated in the prefaces. With the agreement of nearly all scholars, Udo Schnelle writes, "the extensive linguistic and theological agreements and cross-references between the Gospel of Luke and the Acts indicate that both works derive from the same author" (The History and Theology of the New Testament Writings, p. 259). This implies the implausibility of the hypothesis of such as John Knox that Marcion knew only Luke, not Acts, and that Acts was an anti-Marcionite production of the mid second century.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/acts.html

And Luke was a traveling partner with Peter and later with Paul. So we know that Luke got "first-hand" accounts.

2) Now we are presented with a problem. Since Luke got his account as recorded in Acts 1 from Peter who was actually present at the time Jesus ascended into heaven, we have contridictory accounts on Jesus' return.

3) Matt. 24 and Luke 21 (the Olivet Discourse) accounts in the gospels, along with Luke's record of Peter's account in Acts 1, is almost in direct accord with the teachings in 1 Cor. 15:51-54, and 1 Thes. 4:13-18. However, these accounts differ with those of 2 Thes. 1:7-8 and Rev. 19:11-21.

Now ask yourself this, according to Acts 1:9-11, did Jesus ascend up into heaven, "in flaming fire taking vengence"?

Did Jesus ascend up into heaven, riding a "white horse?"

Seems to me that Jesus ascending up into heaven "in flaming fire taking vengence" or sitting upon a "white horse" would have been an event one would not have likely have forgotten.

According to Matt. 24:30-31:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

And Luke 21:27:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

These both agree with what Paul taught here:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." -1 Cor. 15:51-52 (KJV)

And here:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -1 Thes. 4:16-17 (KJV)

Matthew 24:30-31; Luke 21:27; 1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thes. 4:16-17 must be one event, and 1 Thes. 1:7-8; and Rev. 19:11-21 must be another completely different one.

In one event, Jesus returns and with a blow of the trumpet, the angels go out and collect God's elect. (Mt. 24:30-31; Lk. 21:27; 1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thes. 4:16-17) Where we will then go to have our works judged (cf. 1 Cor. 3:11-15, and then, as Paul said, we will stay with the Lord forever (cf. 1 Thes. 4:17)). We will stay in the heavens forever! We will not go up to meet Jesus, then turn around and come right back as some believe. Paul said we would stay in heaven with the Lord forever. Then, at the end of the Great tribulation, the Lord will return with His angels (the army) to defeat Satan and set up His Millennial kingdom here on earth. (cf. 2 Thes. 4:7-9; Rev. 19:11-21; 20: 1-10). Then come the great white throne judgment (cf. Rev. 20:11-15)

Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???

NO, this will not effect our salvation, but yes, it is important to know.

Now, between now and the end of time as we know it, Jesus will return at least two more times. One time He returns to collect His elect (church, bride) and once more to defeat Satan, the beast, and the false prophet.

So, which is it:

1) The angels lied and Jesus will return differently than He left:

2) Jesus did asccend up into heaven in flaming fire taking vengence and upon a white horse:

3) Or as a consequence, an omission of facts whereby as a result, the Bible is in error and thus rendering it unreliable:

4) These are two totally separate events.

You decide, which is it?

God Bless

Till all are one.

[FreeinChrist]

Good post Dean! I don't view the rapture as a coming but as a gathering together and we meet Him in the air.

[FreeinChrist]

Opening Remarks
I can certainly understand your concern and confusion over the varioius eschatological (end times) positions. As a premillennial dispensationalist, I am going to do my level best to be as fair and broad as I possibly can be to those brethren who may differ with me.

How is it that conservative Bible believing Christians can have such divergent views on the end times? If the Scriptures are crystal clear on this issue, as they are on so many other doctrines, why the incongruities?

Ultimately, there are some undeniable, core, essential beliefs that all born again Christians must espouse. Namely, we believe in the real, personal, bodily, glorious, immanent return of the Lord Jesus Christ to rule and reign over His creation. Some evangelicals like to tag on the obvious, "...in victory over sin, death, hell and Satan", but you don't have to. It's assumed.

The Stuff You Need To Believe
Real return: Jesus spoke of His return as a literal event [Matthew 24:27]. Theologians like John Shelby Spong, who take Jesus’ words with great poetic license, are violating every principle of sound biblical hermeneutics. Jesus is really coming back. He wasn’t kidding. He wasn’t speaking metaphorically.

Personal return: Jesus Himself will come. He will not return through the agency of an angel or other representative [John 14:3].

Bodily return: Jesus departed this earth in His resurrection body, and He will return in that same body [Acts 1:11]. Those who claim Christ’s return will be merely spiritual are sadly mistaken.

Glorious return: While Jesus came to suffer and die in His first advent, He will come to reign supreme at His return [Revelation 19:11-18].

Immanent return: No man knows the day or the hour of the Lord’s return [Matthew 24:36]. Nevertheless, there remains no requisite prophesy yet unfulfilled that would hold back that day. Everything that needs to happen in history to make ready the day of Christ’s return has already taken place. Thus Jesus could return at any time. He may come in a thousand years, or He may come before you finish reading this line. His return is therefore said to be immanent [Matthew 24:44].

The Four Primary Schools Of End Times Thinking
The following positions are described succinctly and (to my discredit) deficiently. Nevertheless, I will attempt to sketch an overview of each viewpoint, beginning with the most literal hermeneutic approach, and ending with the most figurative. Please keep in mind that each of these eschatological positions falls within the sphere of biblical orthodoxy, and each espouses the above essentials. Thus the differences between these positions are not related to salvific doctrine, but secondary issues of less eternal significance. Christians must unite on the essentials, but are free to debate and disagree over the secondary stuff. Each of the following positions has its weaknesses.

Dispensational Premillennialism: This position generally holds that Christ will appear in the sky at the first resurrection/rapture and retrieve from the earth all who truly belong to Him, both living and dead. Following this event, the world will experience a period of severe judgment usually referred to as the Tribulation. This Tribulation period is typically believed to be seven years in duration, though some dispensationalists have proposed other possible spans. Christ returns to the earth at the end of the Tribulation and defeats the forces of Satan at the battle of Armageddon, locking the devil into a prison pit and launching the Millennium – a one thousand year reign of Christ upon this earth. Following the Millennium, Satan is released for a brief time to engage in one final battle, usually called the Battle Of Gog And Magog. After his defeat, Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, the second resurrection (of the wicked) takes place, and final judgment occurs. Thereafter, this earth is done away with and replaced by a new earth, along with a new heaven. And so begins eternity future.
Hermeneutic weakness: Dispensationalists have a very difficult time proving from Scripture that the rapture and return stand at opposite ends of the Tribulation.
NOTE: Some dispensationalists believe the rapture does not take place until the middle of the Tribulation, though this position is uncommon.

Historical Premillennialism: This position generally holds that Christ will return at the end of the Tribulation. Thus, the first resurrection/rapture, and the return of Christ at Armageddon, and final judgment, are believed to be immediately successive events. The Millennium, and much of the Book of Revelation, are seen as a metaphorical reflections of church history. Hence the term “historical” premillennialism.
Hermeneutic weakness: The return of the Lord Jesus Christ is immanent and utterly unpredictable. According to this view, however, one need only observe the rise of the Antichrist at the outset of the Tribulation, begin a seven year countdown, and presto – there’s Jesus.

Amillennialism: This position is broad and complex with a vast variety of opinion evident among its proponents. While acknowledging the actuality of Christ’s return as stipulated in the previous section, amillennialists generally view all eschatologically oriented passages figuratively, seeing in them a reflection of various universal truths. These truths often center on the age old struggle between good and evil, and the various trials the tribulations faced by the church over the centuries. As a rule, amillennialists believe we are now living in the Millennium – a non-specific time period of grace leading up to the return of Christ. There is no literal Tribulation. There is no literal Antichrist. And in a manner similar to historical premillennialism, the resurrection of the dead is conjoined; no distinction is made between the first resurrection of the saved, and the second resurrection of the damned.
Hermeneutic weakness: If one abandons a literal reading of Scripture in these matters, one is left asking the question, “What, then, do these passages truly mean?” The extraordinary level of disagreement among amillennial thinkers is evidence that they have yet to settle that issue. Indeed, a less-than-literal reading of Scripture always makes it difficult to present an airtight case.

Postmillennialism: This positon generally holds that the world will continue to get better and better – continue to grow in righteousness and God consciousness – continue to come more and more under the influence of Christians – until at last Christ returns. Postmillennialism is, without a doubt, the most “positive” of the eschatological camps. Like historical premillennialism and amillennialism, this approach holds that we are now living in the Millennium and that Christ will return at the end of this age. Thus the prefix “post”. In most other respects, postmillennialism is nearly identical to amillennialism.
Hermeneutic weakness: Aside from the generic problems that always plague a figurative hermeneutic process, postmillennialism has difficulty explained why the Bible seems to predict a steady deterioration leading up to the end. Thus, postmillennialists often find it challenging to reconcile their theology with the realities of life on earth in the 21st century.

Closing Thoughts
As a conservative evangelical, I recognize the worth and thoughtfulness that has gone into each of the above eschatologies. As theologians, we are often called on to answer very specific questions that God has not chosen to reveal with total clarity in His Word. We do our best to prayerfully discern these truths from Scriptural clues, but we are keenly aware that our efforts are imperfect and always incomplete. I would encourage you to wholeheartedly adopt the essential doctrine of Christ’s return as spelled out at the top of our discussion. As to which eschatological school you should affiliate with, there’s no rush to make a decision. If your Pastor is premil/pretrib, then glean from him a deep and thorough understanding of that position. Don’t be afraid to seek to counsel of those who might hold a different eschatological view. And remember, if in the end you find yourself hopelessly frustrated and confused by the whole silly thing, there remains one final, legitimate eschatology for you to consider.

Panmillennialism: It’ll all pan out in the end.


Great post! I am a premil dispensationalist. That is classic dispie and not Pauline.

[Lorren]

Tell you what, let me ask you a few simple questions first.

What is an angel?

God Bless

Till all are one.


I am not sure if I truly believe in the rapture as they preach it. Jesus had to die before he was risen. He was without sin. We, who are sinners, will be taken up? The bible says it is appointed that all men must die once. To me that is a physical death. When you die, in a moment, twinkling of an eye, you go to meet the Lord in the air. All these people who have a near death experience, say they saw the light, some even say they saw Jesus. To me that is a "rapture" But if it isn't your time as of yet, you are sent back to your body. Live to tell about your experience. Who is to say it happens in a "second of time." Your here talking to a friend, and all of a sudden, you dissappear. I'm not sure I believe that. I believe that when the last person in the "Book of Life" is taken, then the Book will be closed. Now the Anti-Christ will be released upon the earth. The whole earth will be decieved. I believe the rapture took place when Christ died on the cross. And has been since. I believe you must die, then all will be revealed to you. If I am wrong or way off base, I am open for your opinions. May God bless you all.

[DeaconDean]

The bible says it is appointed that all men must die once. To me that is a physical death. When you die, in a moment, twinkling of an eye, you go to meet the Lord in the air.

First off, even the Bible, the Apostle Paul taught that not everyone will die:

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -1 Thes. 4:17 (KJV)

And Paul went even further to say:

"We shall not all sleep," -1 Cor. 15:51 (KJV)

"Sleep" being a metaphor for death.

So when it says in Hebrews that it is appointed unto man once to die, what it is saying is that if the Lord tarries, and you are fortunate to live a ful life here, then you will die and then comes the judgement.

All these people who have a near death experience, say they saw the light, some even say they saw Jesus. To me that is a "rapture" But if it isn't your time as of yet, you are sent back to your body. Live to tell about your experience. Who is to say it happens in a "second of time." Your here talking to a friend, and all of a sudden, you dissappear. I'm not sure I believe that. I believe that when the last person in the "Book of Life" is taken, then the Book will be closed. Now the Anti-Christ will be released upon the earth. The whole earth will be decieved. I believe the rapture took place when Christ died on the cross. And has been since. I believe you must die, then all will be revealed to you. If I am wrong or way off base, I am open for your opinions. May God bless you all.

I submit, there has already been at least three "raptures."

"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." -Gen. 5:24 (KJV)

This was the first.

"And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal...And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. " -2 Kings 2:1, 11 (KJV)

This was the second.

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." -Mt. 27:52-53 (KJV)

This was the third.

And there will be a fourth.

Your here talking to a friend, and all of a sudden, you dissappear. I'm not sure I believe that.

Well, Jesus said that just such a thing would happen:

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." -Mt. 24:40-42 (KJV)

John Gill comments:

Matthew 24:40 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Matthew/24.html#40)

Ver. 40. Then shall two be in the field,.... About their proper business, of husbandry, ploughing, or sowing, or any other rural employment:

the one shall be taken; not by the preaching of the Gospel, into the kingdom of God, or Gospel dispensation; though such a distinction God makes, by the ministry of the word, accompanied by his Spirit and power; nor by angels, to meet Christ in the air, and to be introduced into his kingdom and glory; but by the eagles, the Roman army, and either killed or carried captive by them:

and the other left; not in a state of nature and unregeneracy, as many are, to whom the Gospel is preached; nor with devils at the last day, to be thrust down by them into the infernal regions; but by the Romans, being by some remarkable providence, or another, delivered out of their hands; which was the case of some few, and these of the meaner sort; and therefore persons of a rural life and occupation are instanced in.


Matthew 24:41 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Matthew/24.html#41)

Ver. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill,.... Though the word women is not in the Greek text, yet it is rightly supplied by our translators, as it is in the Persic version; for the word rendered grinding, is in the feminine gender, and was the work of women, as appears both from the Scripture, Ex 11:5 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Exodus/11.html#5) and from several passages in the Jewish writings, concerning which their canons run thus {p};

"These are the works which a woman is to do for her husband, tnxwj, "she must grind", and bake, and wash, and boil, and make his bed, &c.''

And elsewhere it is asked {q},

"how does she grind? she sits at the mill, and watches the flour, but she does not grind, or go after a beast, that so the mill may not stop; but if their custom is to grind at a hand mill, she may grind. The sanhedrim order this to poor people; for if she brings one handmaid, or money, or goods, sufficient to purchase, she is not obliged to grind, &c.''

Frequent mention is made, of women grinding together at the same mill: a case is put concerning two women grinding at an hand mill {r}, and various rules are given about it; as, that {s}

"a woman may lend her neighbour that is suspected of eating the fruits of the seventh year after time, a meal sieve, a fan, a mill, or a furnace, but she may not winnow, nor "grind with her".''

Which it supposes she might do, if she was not suspected: again {t},

"the wife of a plebeian, tnxwj, "may grind" with the wife of a learned man, in the time that she is unclean, but not when she is clean.''

Nor was this the custom of the Jews only, for women to grind, but also of other countries, as of the Abyssines {u}, and of both Greeks and Barbarians {w}:

the one shall be taken, and the other left; as before, one shall be taken by the Romans, and either put to death, or carried captive; and the other shall escape their hands, through the singular providence of God. The Ethiopic version, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel add, "two shall be in one bed, one shall be taken, and the other left"; but these words are not in the copies of Matthew in common, but are taken out of Lu 17:34 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Luke/17.html#34) though they are in the Cambridge copy of Beza's, and in one of Stephens's.

{p} Misn. Cetubot, c. 5. sect. 5. Vid. T. Bab. Bava Kama, fol. 47. 9. & 48. 1. {q} Maimon. Hilch. Ishot. c. 21. sect. 5, 6. {r} T. Bab. Nidda, fol. 60. 2. {s} Misn. Sheviith, c. 5. 9. & Gittin, c. 5. sect. 9. {t} T. Hieros. Teruinot, fol. 46. 3. T. Bab. Gittin, fol. 61. 2. & Cholin, fol. 6. 2. Misn. Taharot, c. 7. sect. 4. {u} Ludolph. Hist. Ethiop. l. 4. c. 4. {w} Plutarch apud Beza. in loc.


Matthew 24:42 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Matthew/24.html#42)

Ver. 42. Watch therefore,.... Since the time of this desolation is so uncertain, and since it will come upon the Jews unawares, and some wilt escape, whilst others perish; for the words are plainly an inference from what precedes, and clearly relate to things going before, and are not a transition to a new subject:

for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come; to avenge himself of the unbelieving Jews, and fulfil what he in person, and by his apostles, had predicted and warned them of: though I will not deny, but that what follows may be much better accommodated and applied to the second coming of Christ, and the last judgment, and the behaviour of men with regard to both, than anything said before; and it may be our Lord's intention, to lead his disciples gradually, and as it were imperceptibly, to the last scene of things on earth, to make way for the parables and description of the future judgment, in the next chapter; still keeping in view, and having reference to, the subject he had been so long upon.


http://www.freegrace.net/gill/

God Bless

Till all are one.

[ImmersionX]

deleted by poster.

[A Brother In Christ]

I believe in the Second Coming/Glorious Return of our Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe in a "second second coming"...I personally do not believe in the dispensational view of a "pre-tribulational" rapture of the true church. I do not see any evidence in the Bible that points to this viewpoint. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 shows me no definitive proof of the concept, and yet my pastor teaches this to our church. I just take it in stride....but my question is this, and I have yet to get the time to discuss this with our pastor:

Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???

God Bless.

PS: I guess my viewpoint is of a pre-millenial return of our Lord Jesus Christ to reign for 1000 yrs on earth, then judgement!?!?! I'm honestly not convinced of a "rapture" of the church at all I guess.(as of now...doing research, keeping an open mind.)

Dan 12:2,11-12 OT saints are looking for 75 days after the 2nd coming to recieve eternal life and to become glorified

NT saint recieve eternal life upon belief ... 1 jn 5:11-13
Glorification can happen at any moment .. 1 cor 15:52 which was part of Pauline mysteries given to the church

1 cor 15:23-24 states 3 different glorification of believers for 3 different groups!

then there is rev 4:4 promises fulfill .... promises given Rev 3:5,21; 2 tim 4:8, 1 thes 2:19, James 1:12, 1 cor 9:25, 1 peter 5:4

Notice john 14:16-20 promise given to church! ... notice in rev 4:5 Holy Spirit is in heaven

[PaladinGirl]

I believe in the Second Coming/Glorious Return of our Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe in a "second second coming"...I personally do not believe in the dispensational view of a "pre-tribulational" rapture of the true church. I do not see any evidence in the Bible that points to this viewpoint. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 shows me no definitive proof of the concept, and yet my pastor teaches this to our church. I just take it in stride....but my question is this, and I have yet to get the time to discuss this with our pastor:

Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???

God Bless.

PS: I guess my viewpoint is of a pre-millenial return of our Lord Jesus Christ to reign for 1000 yrs on earth, then judgement!?!?! I'm honestly not convinced of a "rapture" of the church at all I guess.(as of now...doing research, keeping an open mind.)

You don't have to believe in a "second second coming" in order to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. :) Please read this article on the differences between the rapture and the second coming:

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

[Lorren]

Deacon Dean,

I really enjoyed your response. I will look up all the scriptures you have given, and do some research. Your reply really touched my heart. Thank you. When I have finished my research, I will let you know my thoughts. Thanks again and may God bless you.

Lorren

[DeaconDean]

Deacon Dean,

I really enjoyed your response. I will look up all the scriptures you have given, and do some research. Your reply really touched my heart. Thank you. When I have finished my research, I will let you know my thoughts. Thanks again and may God bless you.

Lorren

I would only add one thing, show me in the Bible, where God's elect had to endure His "wrath" along with the unrighteous.

expelled from the garden - judgment for sin

The Flood - judgment for sin.

Returning to the text of Genesis 6, in verse 3 the LORD says, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years." What is probably referred to here is the time remaining until the judgment of the Flood.

-Lambert Dolphin, On the Great Flood of Noah, found here:

http://ldolphin.org/flood.shtml

The 70 years of Captivity - judgment for sin


The seventy years in captivity were God's discipline for Israel's neglect of His law, particularly their neglect of the sabbath year (2 Chr. 36:21). This was precisely the judgment He had forewarned of in the Mosaic law:
And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye [be] in your enemies' land; [even] then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. (Lev. 26:27-28, 32-35)


http://www.ovrlnd.com/Covenant/chp12.html

All these things that came upon Israel and the world, were judgments. God's wrath has not been revealed,..yet!

God Bless

Till all are one.