Is Christian Rock, really Christ-like? [Archive]

Sword-In-Hand

17th July 2004, 02:10 AM

LOL! Ok I'm up for it.

Christian Rock is among the worst things to ever happen to Christianity. I do not think it is Christ-like in the least, and I don't think it matters what the lyrics are (though some are FAR better than others). It leads to confusion, false doctrine, and milk-shake Christianity.

And let the fireworks begin!
I'm sorry but I have to disagree. The worst thing that happened to Christianity was Satan or hypocritical Christians. Both are real close in my opinion. It's ok if a person doesn't like the music, that deals with taste. I can't stand Southern Gospel music, but the words are great. So basically if it's not a persons style of music, don't listen to it.

I love Christian Rock because it speaks to a generation that isn't going to listen to these old hymns, gospel and "old timer" music. Out of all the Christian rock bands I've listened to, I can't recall any that lead to confusion or make me believe their doctrine is false. None of us can judge the hearts of the writers of this music. If the songs in their hearts are to glorify God, then who are we to say they can't sing it?

People want to get tore up because they hear a Christian artist on the mainstream radio. Last time I read the Bible we were to take the message of Christ to the lost world. I pray for Christian rock bands to increase and I pray that more bands become mainstream so some people of this generation will actually have a chance to hear decent songs, lyric wise.

I think Christian rock is Christ-like if the band singing it is Christ like. David said in the Psalms to play skillfully and make a joyful noise unto the Lord. Christian rock encompasses both of those requirements and I for one am glad there is a such thing.

17th July 2004, 02:12 AM

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. The worst thing that happened to Christianity was Satan or hypocritical Christians. Both are real close in my opinion. It's ok if a person doesn't like the music, that deals with taste. I can't stand Southern Gospel music, but the words are great. So basically if it's not a persons style of music, don't listen to it.

I love Christian Rock because it speaks to a generation that isn't going to listen to these old hymns, gospel and "old timer" music. Out of all the Christian rock bands I've listened to, I can't recall any that lead to confusion or make me believe their doctrine is false. None of us can judge the hearts of the writers of this music. If the songs in their hearts are to glorify God, then who are we to say they can't sing it?

People want to get tore up because they hear a Christian artist on the mainstream radio. Last time I read the Bible we were to take the message of Christ to the lost world. I pray for Christian rock bands to increase and I pray that more bands become mainstream so some people of this generation will actually have a chance to hear decent songs, lyric wise.

I think Christian rock is Christ-like if the band singing it is Christ like. David said in the Psalms to play skillfully and make a joyful noise unto the Lord. Christian rock encompasses both of those requirements and I for one am glad there is a such thing.
Well that didn't take long. LOL

Sword-In-Hand

17th July 2004, 02:47 AM

Well the reason for that semi rant is because I am in a Christian rock band and I think I'm far from being the worst thing that happened to Christianity. To me that was just an unintelligent remark.

seebs

17th July 2004, 03:00 AM

I am very much unfond of the "bands which are precisely like a popular secular band, but sing only about religion" idea. Bands which are Christian, and deal with Christian themes, I don't object to.

I do think that many of these bands would do better to write religious songs about the world, not just songs about religion.

OracleX

17th July 2004, 07:02 AM

Oh this is a good one! Great topic GEL. Been waiting for this topic to come up.

Lets all have our say but don't forget the rules.
:rules:

bleechers

17th July 2004, 08:55 AM

It leads to confusion, false doctrine, and milk-shake Christianity

So do most "Pastors" but we don't do away with them! ;)

CCM is filled with confusion, false doctrine and milk-shake Christianity. I have to agree wholeheartedly there (since I debate its adherents all the time).

So, let me agree with this statement on its face because the whole church is headed in this direction. Books, programs, music, seminaries have moved away from the commands of scriptures and the end result is what BT states above.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's not the medium, it's the message. CCM is currently weak, loaded with questionable doctrine, and built upon the false pillars of (a) "positive messages" are better than "in your face" lyrics and (b) don't get hung up on doctrine, it's all about love. This is the problem, not the music.

You wanna see this... go to the Contemporary Music forum. I am known there as the stalwart of the PREACH THE GOSPEL, DEFEND THE FAITH, CORRECT FALSE DOCTRINE wing of CCM (we're a lonely group).

"Christian" books, DVDs, Bible-studies and radio ministries are also full of tripe, but we don't throw out all books, DVDs, etc.

I am a CCM musician. I teach "learn to discern". Check out the Carman thread if you wanna see what's missing in CCM (and the church). What's missing is discernment. Nobody cares that they guy promotes false doctrine... but I do.

I would hope that my music would never lead anyone to conclude that it is "weak". :) If it is, I WELCOME correction! I even got blasted in the Poetry forum for posting the lyrics to my song "Sola Scriptura".

I used to be on the "all rock music is bad" team until I was challenged to prove it from the scripture... which I couldn't... I have made more inroads into the CCM world by focusing on the doctrinal content of the songs and the statements of CCM musicians and then comparing them to scripture. All other criticisms such as "the back-beat affects the alpha waves in the brain" etc. are not built on the scripture, but on the theories of men and on Freudian psychanalysis.

If there is a scriptural argument aginst the music, I'd be willing to consider it. :)

OracleX

17th July 2004, 10:05 AM

OracleX

17th July 2004, 10:11 AM

I forgot to put this in my other post... I think what this really comes down to is preferance and what individuals like. Of course there are extemes to everything, but some people like classical, some like country, some like rock, some like choruses, some like hymns, some like polka.

eldermike

17th July 2004, 11:13 AM

To me it depends on the motive. This goes for pastors and musicians. If the motive is power to self then it's not worship. If a pastor preaches to hear "you rock"! or the musician plays to hear same, then it's not worship.

The idea that rock music should be set apart from other genres is missing the point. Rock rhythm is useful in music.

I use it often, as I play bass in two rock style Christian bands, I also do some studio work for other bands here and there. I say this only because my experiences are what I use to make decisions on this issue.It's been a big part of my life and the biggest part of my service to our Lord. Why not use scripture to decide this? Because rock music is not mentioned in scripture. So we are left with our ability to observe, to think and to come to reasonable conclusions.

All of the Christian musicians that I have worked with were/are serious worshipers, they are very gifted and more humble than others with different but equal gifts. I have seen more pastors brag about abilities than musicians.

Musicians are always examining this issue, constantly talking about this. It's before every practice, every performance and every studio session, we stop, we pray and we ask the Holy Spirit to speak through the gifts that God has given us. We are aware that we are standing in front of a mix of God's people and those with stones. We pray hard.

I have a theory: God is reaching people..........(finish my theory.)

I left a small church over this issue. I was worship leader and tension was unbearable with the pastor. He used the pulpit to condemn what God was using to bring young people into the house. God is bigger than we know, God can use rock music to reach His lost lambs. In fact He is doing just that.

Christian style rock music is now a legitimate art form. It's easy now to get a gig in a local coffee house, a restaurant or a book store. People are coming to Christ in your town on Friday and sat night because God has His musicians all over the place. Sunday morning is not the time to condemn what God did sat night through the submitted lives of His gifted musicians. Think about it.

Mike

Mary_Magdalene

17th July 2004, 11:56 AM

OracleX

17th July 2004, 12:07 PM

OracleX

17th July 2004, 12:14 PM

i agree Mike.

But, i dont agree with secular songs being performed at church. i think music depends on the thoughts of the one who is writing the song. Our church sang James Taylor's "Youve Got A Friend". now, i know from my unsaved days that James Taylor didnt write that song to tell the world about God. He was probably smoking a joint while writing it-this song has NOTHING to do with God. Just because the words can be used by a Christian to think about God doesnt mean its a Christian song. The underlying theme is still there-it was not written for God and therefore should be avoided.

I guess i am one of those Christians that think followers of Christ should not listen to secular music at all.

and yes, there are pastors, books, etc. that are not in line with the gospel. We should get rid of them too.
I agree with you in that we should not use secular things out of contect. I have seen the same things with love songs used in the same way. The love song was not written about God and the videos are clear about that but some like to turn around and try and put God in it.

We can not put God in to any box. We must put ourself and what we do in to God and if what we are doing is in opposition to Him and we are truly seeking Him, then He will show what doesn't fit.

seebs

17th July 2004, 12:22 PM

OracleX

17th July 2004, 12:26 PM

Seebs you never cease to amaze me with comments ... excellent points.

sunshinejennii

17th July 2004, 12:51 PM

I see nothing wrong with christian rock. It REALLY annoys me that people think rock in general is wors than other secular genres......have you not heard some of that RnB and Pop and stuff!!!

If the lyrics are not harmful and the expression behind the singing appropriate how can it it not be christ-like? I think Christ would have been at the rock gigs and festivals if he walked the earth now. Several of my friends have really started to take in interest in my faith after hearing my music. To be honest a lot of christian music really doesnt appeal to me musically and yea i will listen to it but im into heavier sounding music. For a lot of my friends the only christian music they've heard is really corny, musically pathetic tripe! So to hear a good loud bass line and what they consider to be good music and then realise the lyrics are praising god is a FANTASTIC witness.

CrystalBrooke

17th July 2004, 12:56 PM

i personally dont listen to christian rock, i dont listen to the regular rock, ok exept for switch foot, but its only the 1 song...n e ways, i think christian rock is just as annoying as Metallica's music...but then again you cant deny that the sound appeals to a larger audience today. i dont think its the worst thing to ever happen to chritianity...perhaps its for the better...just maybe, im not quite sure yet...

17th July 2004, 01:24 PM

ROFL OracleX. You agree with everyone. I guess that's what makes you easy to get along with!

17th July 2004, 01:24 PM

Ok I've got up on the reading.

In a word... Ack!

I'll start to reply now.

did I mention... Ack!

17th July 2004, 01:27 PM

Well the reason for that semi rant is because I am in a Christian rock band and I think I'm far from being the worst thing that happened to Christianity. To me that was just an unintelligent remark.
Oh my friend you should have left off where you were. Because now you've said that "you" are the worst thing that has happened to Christianity. Which is not what I said. I have not said one thing to this point about Christian Rock Musicians. You see... you have a separation problem... You are not the music you play. I don't often make unintelligent remarks, but it does happen. This however is not one of those times.

OracleX

17th July 2004, 01:30 PM

Easy to get along with ... lol not everyone would agree with that :) I didn't agree with you but we still have a blast.

I agree with a lot of points on this on both sides. This is one of those topics where there isn't a cut and dry answer or stand in my mind so I am open to the different views.

17th July 2004, 01:36 PM

So do most "Pastors" but we don't do away with them! ;)
We ought to! Or at least correct them!

CCM is filled with confusion, false doctrine and milk-shake Christianity. I have to agree wholeheartedly there (since I debate its adherents all the time).

So, let me agree with this statement on its face because the whole church is headed in this direction. Books, programs, music, seminaries have moved away from the commands of scriptures and the end result is what BT states above.

I think you've got my point.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's not the medium, it's the message. CCM is currently weak, loaded with questionable doctrine, and built upon the false pillars of (a) "positive messages" are better than "in your face" lyrics and (b) don't get hung up on doctrine, it's all about love. This is the problem, not the music.

In your opinion. Does music (talking about the music not lyrics) appeal to the flesh or the spirit or the soul, or some combination of two or three or ..?

You wanna see this... go to the Contemporary Music forum. I am known there as the stalwart of the PREACH THE GOSPEL, DEFEND THE FAITH, CORRECT FALSE DOCTRINE wing of CCM (we're a lonely group).

Awesome ^

"Christian" books, DVDs, Bible-studies and radio ministries are also full of tripe, but we don't throw out all books, DVDs, etc.

You're right but we ought to throw away particular genres of "Christian" books, DVDS, Bible-studies even (YES I said it!).

I am a CCM musician. I teach "learn to discern". Check out the Carman thread if you wanna see what's missing in CCM (and the church). What's missing is discernment. Nobody cares that they guy promotes false doctrine... but I do.

I would hope that my music would never lead anyone to conclude that it is "weak". :) If it is, I WELCOME correction! I even got blasted in the Poetry forum for posting the lyrics to my song "Sola Scriptura".

Keep on keeping on brother. IMO Carman is (I don't know if I can say this) an ijit, and you picked the perfect example of lots of joy and little brain.

I used to be on the "all rock music is bad" team until I was challenged to prove it from the scripture... which I couldn't... I have made more inroads into the CCM world by focusing on the doctrinal content of the songs and the statements of CCM musicians and then comparing them to scripture. All other criticisms such as "the back-beat affects the alpha waves in the brain" etc. are not built on the scripture, but on the theories of men and on Freudian psychanalysis.

True (sorta).

If there is a scriptural argument aginst the music, I'd be willing to consider it. :)
You'll never find a scripture that deals with "CCM" of course :P . Nor will you find a scriptural argument that says "Don't smoke crack" (though the two are not in the same group by any means). If you can't find a direct scripture for it you have to look at principles.

Mary_Magdalene

17th July 2004, 01:40 PM

The question of which music is "secular" is non-trivial. Is music secular because the writer is secular? Because the topic is secular? There have been hymns written by non-believers - professional musicians working for money. There have been pieces written by devout believers, which have no overt religious context.

Is the Little G Minor Fugue, by Bach, a piece of secular music? There is more of God in it than there is in many of the hymns I once heard in church.

Is Jethro Tull's Hymn 43 secular? How would you even begin to answer that question?

i think music is secular when the writer is a nonbeliever. now, i know it gets a little muddled when a Christian artist does a song that is not about Christ or his walk with Him (Michael W. Smith has a song about his daughter on one of his cd's). Do i think because of that michaelwsmith should be labeled a secular artist? no.

if bach was a nonbeliever, it is a secular song. no matter how pretty it sounds. same with Jethro there. secular songs can be beautiful but that doesnt mean there is God in there. Embarrasingly enough, i love that song from the movie Titanic that Celene Dion sings (the love song). Would i say that is a Godly song cause i think its beautiful? no. and i would also not sing that trying to praise Jesus either. The words were never intended for His praise, but for a loved one.

when the song was written it was "born". No matter how we try to sing it, think about it, listen to it...it is still what it was when it was born-a secular song.

17th July 2004, 01:41 PM

Bleechers or ElderMike or someone else please answer this question...

CCM is for:

A. Christians

B. Unsaved people

C. fill in the blank with another option

17th July 2004, 02:09 PM

Easy to get along with ... lol not everyone would agree with that :)
'specially not your wife!

He shoots! .... He scores! :P

OracleX

17th July 2004, 02:16 PM

'specially not your wife!
ROFL!! Did she tell you to say that?! :D

That was good... :D

eldermike

17th July 2004, 02:18 PM

Bleechers or ElderMike or someone else please answer this question...

CCM is for:

A. Christians

B. Unsaved people

C. fill in the blank with another option
All Music used in worship services was at one time contemporary.
Doctrinal purity is an issue within the "Christian music world" . But, it always has been so. The reason is simple, it comes from all flavors of Christianity.

CCM is a pot full of stuff, some of it very good, some not so good.
There are some very good new songs. There are some terrible hymns. We could have a good time picking doctrinal errors from the latest hymnal or right off the radio.

Question for you: What would you think of a rock arrangement of higher ground?

Mike

bleechers

17th July 2004, 02:26 PM

In your opinion. Does music (talking about the music not lyrics) appeal to the flesh or the spirit or the soul, or some combination of two or three or ..?

I believe that the recipient determines this. Many a choir dissolve in back-biting while singing nothing but "sacred music". Pride and "self" are enemies that can turn anything sour. Most of the big-name false teachers in teh church use the KJV (like I do), but that does not make the KJV "the bible of the heretic".

You could lock me in a room and play the entire Marilyn Manson catalog repeatedly and I guarantee you I won't come out anything but annoyed... in other words, I, as the recipient would not be affected as others might be.

But you make a valid point... we EACH need to examine our motives for doing WHATEVER we do. Do we listen to whatever music we listen to for reasons of edification or to feed the flesh? It is a good question that sits on Romans 14.

How many CCM-bashers feel superior because the don't listen to it? I dunno, but I bet there are some. Pride and self are insidious and know no genre.

Now, to be honest, I hate the truly hard, loud stuff, because if you can't understand the message then obviously the medium has overtaken the message. This should never happen. A preacher should never be larger than the message (Jn 3:33) and the music should never obscure the clear exclamation of God's counsel.

We ought to! Or at least correct them!

Yes, but we don't throw out all Pastors. ;) We ought to chuck out false teachers in CCM too (see: Carman) and correct whomever would be corrected.

CCM is for:

The primary use of music in the NT is for the edification of the saints and in the OT it is the song of the redeemed. I think music that calls itself "Christian" can either be used to edify the saints (by reinforcing sound doctrine) or tell the story of redemption (for those who know not salvation).

You'll never find a scripture that deals with "CCM" of course . Nor will you find a scriptural argument that says "Don't smoke crack" (though the two are not in the same group by any means). If you can't find a direct scripture for it you have to look at principles.

Absotively! :) We need to look to scriptural principles. I can look to the principle of soberness in regard to the question of crack. I can look to the principle of modesty and the principle of lust=adultery to avoid pornography... As of yet, I have not discovered the "back-beat" principle.

Now, if someone decided never to listen to CCM... they wouldn't be missing much. But I could say the same about a whole lot that is passed off in the name of "Christianity"!

:)

17th July 2004, 02:49 PM

All Music used in worship services was at one time contemporary.
Doctrinal purity is an issue within the "Christian music world" . But, it always has been so. The reason is simple, it comes from all flavors of Christianity.

Too bad there are 'flavors' of Christianity eh? But yeah I don't disagree with you.. but I thought we were talking about Christian Rock, presumably outside of the Church.

CCM is a pot full of stuff, some of it very good, some not so good.
There are some very good new songs. There are some terrible hymns. We could have a good time picking doctrinal errors from the latest hymnal or right off the radio.
You get no argument form me on that. And this is the issue. We should not be gathering our doctrine from Christian Rock, or Hymns, or Chorus'. We should be getting our doctrine from 'the foolishness of preaching'. You've hit the nail on the head, mabey by accident. Christian Rockers are not pastors! This is the huge issue.

Question for you: What would you think of a rock arrangement of higher ground?

Mike

I wouldn't run screaming if that's what you mean.... nor would I jump up on the table and yell "Devil! It's the Devil!" :D

umm..

Nor would I call up a bunch of unsaved people and play it for them expecting them to get saved by it. Nor would I play it Sunday Morning in the church.

17th July 2004, 02:58 PM

I believe that the recipient determines this.

Would you say that people at a Christian Rock concert act the same or differently from people at a secular rock concert (minus smokin pot etc.). Taking into consideration genre...

Many a choir dissolve in back-biting while singing nothing but "sacred music". Pride and "self" are enemies that can turn anything sour. Most of the big-name false teachers in teh church use the KJV (like I do), but that does not make the KJV "the bible of the heretic".
Amen and AMEN!

You could lock me in a room and play the entire Marilyn Manson catalog repeatedly and I guarantee you I won't come out anything but annoyed... in other words, I, as the recipient would not be affected as others might be.

You brother are strong. While some are weak. This is true for you but is it true for most? Mabey, mabey not.

But you make a valid point... we EACH need to examine our motives for doing WHATEVER we do. Do we listen to whatever music we listen to for reasons of edification or to feed the flesh? It is a good question that sits on Romans 14.

Amen to that. It's not just CCM that needs to be examined it's all areas of our lives and ministry! If we could get this point across.... wooo there'd be a return to truth.

How many CCM-bashers feel superior because the don't listen to it? I dunno, but I bet there are some. Pride and self are insidious and know no genre.

Agreed!

Now, to be honest, I hate the truly hard, loud stuff, because if you can't understand the message then obviously the medium has overtaken the message. This should never happen. A preacher should never be larger than the message (Jn 3:33) and the music should never obscure the clear exclamation of God's counsel.
Yes but someone who's into the heavy stuff and can understand the lyrics would fight you tooth and nail (as I'm sure you know) over this point.

Yes, but we don't throw out all Pastors. ;) We ought to chuck out false teachers in CCM too (see: Carman) and correct whomever would be corrected.

Yes but easier said than done.. in both examples (Pastors and CCM'ers). Carman is immensly popular and I bet they jumped up and down on you when you talked about him eh?

The primary use of music in the NT is for the edification of the saints and in the OT it is the song of the redeemed. I think music that calls itself "Christian" can either be used to edify the saints (by reinforcing sound doctrine) or tell the story of redemption (for those who know not salvation).

Good answer!

Absotively! :) We need to look to scriptural principles. I can look to the principle of soberness in regard to the question of crack. I can look to the principle of modesty and the principle of lust=adultery to avoid pornography... As of yet, I have not discovered the "back-beat" principle.

I don't know that there is one. Usually people lean on "separation" for this principle.

Now, if someone decided never to listen to CCM... they wouldn't be missing much. But I could say the same about a whole lot that is passed off in the name of "Christianity"!

:)
Bleechers we are on the same page, as usual! The problem as I see it is substituting CCM for a church, or seeing it as a "must have". There are other issues but I think you have a good handle on the concept and I think your idea of true doctrine and doctrine based/Bible based music is right-on. I also think, sadly, that you are the odd-ball of the bunch because of this.

seebs

17th July 2004, 06:51 PM

if bach was a nonbeliever, it is a secular song.

But he was a believer.

no matter how pretty it sounds. same with Jethro there.

I think familiarity with the song matters a lot.

secular songs can be beautiful but that doesnt mean there is God in there.

when the song was written it was "born". No matter how we try to sing it, think about it, listen to it...it is still what it was when it was born-a secular song.

What about when Johnny Cash covered the Nine Inch Nails song Hurt? Seems to me that he turned it into a religious song, even though it wasn't originally.

I don't think songs in and of themselves are religious or secular. They have no beliefs. They have only what meaning we choose to give them. Much as we learn to see the face of Christ in those around us, we can learn to see God's creation and glory in all art. MHO.

bleechers

17th July 2004, 07:40 PM

Would you say that people at a Christian Rock concert act the same or differently from people at a secular rock concert (minus smokin pot etc.). Taking into consideration genre...

Example one: "minus smokin' pot" that's "acting diferently is it not? (ha ha ha :0 ha ha ha).

Seriously, having been to both, I see your concern, but my simple answer is "yes". :)

This is true for you but is it true for most?

No, but the problem is that they are untaught (ungrounded). So the same people who would be influenced by weak or heretical music are the same people who would be influenced by weak and heretical teachers. Again, it is the state of the recipient that is the problem.

If we could get this point across.... wooo there'd be a return to truth.

Ah, another "if" that would warm the heart, but alas, I don't see it happening any time soon. :(

Yes but someone who's into the heavy stuff and can understand the lyrics would fight you tooth and nail (as I'm sure you know) over this point

They can and have!

Carman is immensly popular and I bet they jumped up and down on you when you talked about him eh?

I still have the scars... It's amazing, I noted three particular heresies in his music and nobody has yet addressed them. All I get is "touch not God's anointed!" (which I love since that term was originally applied to the disobedient King Saul!) and "Carman loves Jesus and has done so much for the Lord..." blah, blah, blah...

Joseph Smith would flourish if those were the rules!

I don't know that there is one. Usually people lean on "separation" for this principle.

I can kinda see that, but it is weak and, historically, it puts many of the hymns in jeopardy of being "guilty" of the same principle.

The problem as I see it is substituting CCM for a church, or seeing it as a "must have".

Oh no! It is certainly not a must-have! Yeesh! What a horrible thought!

I also think, sadly, that you are the odd-ball of the bunch because of this.

Well that's par for the course in today's church... I suspect you find yourself as the odd-man-out as often as I do in many areas of "Christendom". I read your posts on this topic with great thought, because when a sound brother speaks, attention must be paid! :)

Mary_Magdalene

17th July 2004, 08:10 PM

But he was a believer.

then i would say, if the Holy Spirit was residing in him then it has God in it.

What about when Johnny Cash covered the Nine Inch Nails song Hurt? Seems to me that he turned it into a religious song, even though it wasn't originally.

I don't think songs in and of themselves are religious or secular. They have no beliefs. They have only what meaning we choose to give them. Much as we learn to see the face of Christ in those around us, we can learn to see God's creation and glory in all art. MHO.

i think that the meaning is what the author intended it to be. whether we want to interpret it in a different way does not change where it came from. there is a Nine Inch Nails song "Head like a hole" (known from my previous saved rockin' days). Some of the lyrics are "bow down before the one you serve, your going to get what you deserve..." Now, i KNOW that the writer of that song was not thinking about God when he wrote it- rather...um...he was thinking of certain...um...unGodly things. :blush: But-would that song be ok to sing at church if I said i was singing those lyrics about God (bowing down before Him)??? No.

Something is either from God or its not. There is no grey. no matter how our flesh wants to think so or no matter how good satan is working on decieving us.

I am really not nieve to this. I was just saved 7 years ago and had to throw out ALOT of CD's that the Holy Spirit convicted me was not of Him (Skid Row, Poison, all those other cheesy hair bands) i used to work with local bands and have a good understanding, IMO, of where these songs originate from.

theseed

17th July 2004, 10:03 PM

Here is a related thread in this subforum.

http://www.christianforums.com/t681764

eutychus

17th July 2004, 10:32 PM

Is Christian music really Christ-like?

If it is grounded in Scripture...
If it is theologically sound...
If it is ministering to others...
If it is *quality*...
If it is in the world, but not of, then yes.

Unfortunately, the Christian market doesn't uphold these when it produces tunes.

One of the problems I have is the label "Christian music." I have the same problem with "Christian books" or "Christian movies." It's music. If genres are defined by the music and not the type of lyrics, then that must mean that the Christian genre (as a whole) is composed of a bunch of bands that show little music ingenuity and talent.

seebs

17th July 2004, 10:50 PM

i think that the meaning is what the author intended it to be.

This implies that it is the song which has meaning, not our experience of it. I don't buy that. Someone could write a song, secretly intending it to be blasphemous, trick us into thinking it was a worship song, and... No, I don't buy it.

whether we want to interpret it in a different way does not change where it came from. there is a Nine Inch Nails song "Head like a hole" (known from my previous saved rockin' days). Some of the lyrics are "bow down before the one you serve, your going to get what you deserve..." Now, i KNOW that the writer of that song was not thinking about God when he wrote it- rather...um...he was thinking of certain...um...unGodly things. :blush: But-would that song be ok to sing at church if I said i was singing those lyrics about God (bowing down before Him)??? No.

I think you've missed the point of the song, frankly. That song works on two levels; one is about capitalism. One is about Satan. In both cases, the point is that to serve such a thing is fundamentally stupid.

Head like a hole /
black as your soul /
I'd rather die /
Than give you control //
Bow down before the one you serve /
You're going to get what you deserve.

This is not, exactly, a ringing endorsement. In fact, it is a simple and direct condemnation of the entire idea of accepting immoral authority.

You must, in the end, choose whom you will serve. This song points out that there are things that do not deserve any allegiance.

Something is either from God or its not.

Did God create the universe? Yes. So, the universe is from God.

There is no grey. no matter how our flesh wants to think so or no matter how good satan is working on decieving us.

There may be no grey, but there is a great deal of room for us to change things. This is the whole point of Christianity, and of Paul's teachings on Christian liberty.

The meaning you find in a song is, for the most part, the meaning you bring to it.

theseed

17th July 2004, 10:59 PM

I once heard Tis So Sweet to Trust in Jesus as a rock song performed with an electric guiatr. Did the song become Satanic when that happened? Why? Do you have Scripture to support this?

seebs

17th July 2004, 11:35 PM

More curiously... I have a recording of a live Grateful Dead show. Here are the lyrics to the last song they sang:

Lay down, my dear brothers
Lay down and take your rest.
I want to lay you here
Upon your savior's breast.
I love you
Oh but Jesus loves you the best.
And we bid you goodnight,
goodnight,
good night.

Secular? Religious?

bleechers

18th July 2004, 08:39 AM

I still think it depends on the state of the recipient.

To wit: take U2's "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For". I get something out of this song... not what Bono intended, but I can "filter" it through sound doctrine and be edified.

I'm not even sure what his point is (some utopian socialist system?), but when I hear it, I think of the great hope of the Rapture when I will be done with the war. That is, the war of the flesh against the Spirit. What I am looking for is that day when I will see my Savior face-to-face and I will free of the bonds of this body of death.

Now, that does not mean that I would play the song in my church. Nor does it mean I would cover the song in my set. Why not? Because on its own, the song is not clear enough in its message. Something can only be called "Christian" if there is a doctrinal, scriptural reason for doing so.

So I draw a distinction between a song perfomed by a "Christian" artist and song that can be scripturally and doctrinally called "Christian". The opposite is also true. If Bruce Springsteen covered "A Debtor to Mercy Alone" by Toplady it would not make the song "anti-Christian". Also, if my church choir did "Born to Run" neither would that make that song suddenly "Christian".

So we need to learn to discern!

Carman has some serious doctrinal error in his songs. Just because he calls himself a "Christian" artist we're not supposed to cehck him out against the Bible? Sorry. Music is like everything else, "search the scriptures whether these things are so" (Acts 17:11). If Paul was subject to the scriptures, I would think Carman is too!

Let's teach our youth sound doctrine and how to discern sound doctrine. Telling them "the backbeat is evil" doesn't help anybody.

(Warning: PLUG) If you're interested in good, ex-RC, doctrinal contemporary music... golly, I just happen to know where you can get some. ;)

Mary_Magdalene

18th July 2004, 01:18 PM

Did God create the universe? Yes. So, the universe is from God.

and? so everything in the universe is of God? sin? satan? God created satan so does that make satan good??? no. we need to descern on what is from God and what isnt. whatever isnt throw it in the trash and burn it. we are to flee from unrighteousness. focus on all that is of Him (not that i am perfect, but we need to try to)

vatuck

18th July 2004, 01:39 PM

I love Christian Rock, and I DO get something spiritual from it. One of the things I pray for is that when groups like Switchfoot cross over to the pop charts (as they and so many have before), someone says to themselves, "Hey, they really sound great" and they go buy the CD and it helps them to see things differently. Maybe at that point, they start thinking about Jesus and becoming His.

seebs

18th July 2004, 01:51 PM

and? so everything in the universe is of God? sin? satan? God created satan so does that make satan good??? no. we need to descern on what is from God and what isnt. whatever isnt throw it in the trash and burn it. we are to flee from unrighteousness. focus on all that is of Him (not that i am perfect, but we need to try to)

I think you've highlighted my concern. God created Satan, but apparently, by your definition, Satan isn't "from God". This reduces "from God" to meaning nothing at all.

If you do not hear God praised in a piece of music, that does not necessarily reflect on the music. There are songs that, when I was a non-believer, I loved because they attacked religion, but now I love them because they defend it. We always hear our own voice the loudest.

GreenEyedLady

18th July 2004, 01:53 PM

The primary use of music in the NT is for the edification of the saints and in the OT it is the song of the redeemed. I think music that calls itself "Christian" can either be used to edify the saints (by reinforcing sound doctrine) or tell the story of redemption (for those who know not salvation).

Could you please post some scriptures for your comments?
I am currently reading the OT and David used music to glorify God, not the people.

Well, I figured this thread would be a long one but didn't think it would get this far before I read it!

I have been around all kinds of music. Music that glorifies God, and music that glorifies our bodies. I think Christian Rock should be thrown out, but not all christain music. Just like some pastors should be thrown out, just not all pastor ect. The way I discern is asking myself, is this seperate from the world? Is this worldy music or Godley music. If there is no seperation from the world, whether its the sound, or the lyrics, its worldy. If there is a seperation, then it is Godly. How is christian rock seperate from worldy rock? Just the lyrics? I disagree. If it sounds like the world and looks like the world, then its the world. You know what I mean?
GEL

Sword-In-Hand

18th July 2004, 04:39 PM

If it sounds like the world and looks like the world, then its the world. You know what I mean?
GEL
I disagree there. We as people look like the world with how we dress, go to work, all of that, but that does not make us of the world. We are to be in the world, but not of the world. Christian rock is in the world, but it does not make it of the world. A chord is a chord. It depends on the heart of the person who put that chord together with other chords to make it either of the world or of Christ.

I love the band Falling Up. And trust me, I'm critical of lyrics I don't care who the band is, but they are Christian rock and their music ministers to me. Christian rock is not praise music and alot of people judge it like it should be. Just remember whatever you do, do to the glory of God. If these bands are doing what they are doing for the glory of God, who cares if the music isn't our bag of tea? We all worship the same Jesus in a different way.

My advice is to listen to the music before it's discarded as garbage because of its genre. Who knows it may minister to someone, and if it doesn't. Don't listen to it. It's simple. Here might be a better argument. If you are saved and I am saved, then the same Spirit speaks to us. If you are convicted about listening to such music and I'm not, does that mean God is clearly speaking to one and not the other? See where this could go? LOL.

Love you all...peace

hola

18th July 2004, 07:54 PM

This is one of those topics that I've struggled with over time. People say different things. I couldn't tell you if it's right or wrong. Some things looks more obvious than others. This topic seems to resemble the KJV-only debate in many ways. There seems to be no distinctive boundary to judge or justify things absolutely. But all I can say is that, "On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand." I can't stand on the arguments of those who support Christian Rock, nor on those who are against it. I just want to get my eyes off of all the nit-picky things and focus on Jesus. When we start to take peoples eyes off of Jesus, whether or not we think that we're doing them a favor, I think a lot of confusion comes in. How can Christ be divided? It seems that arguments like this one are only meant to divide, even if the intentions are sincere.

bleechers

18th July 2004, 09:02 PM

Could you please post some scriptures for your comments?

Cartainly :)

In the church, music that wants to be called Christian should edify the saints through teaching and admonishing believers, by "the word".

Colossians 3
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Songs wishing to be called "Christian" must be clear in their doctrine and understood.

1 Corinthians 14
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Music that wishes to be deemed "Chrstian" must clearly be identified with the gospel and with the doctrines of Christ that those outside the church know it's Christian.

Romans 15
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

In the OT, David does indeed glorify the attributes of God, but this is part of what can be called "the song of the redeemed". In the OT economy, redemption was more two-sided: redeemed from sin and redeemed from one's enemies.

Exodus 15
1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 Samuel 22
1 And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul:

Songs were sometimes used to chastise God's people and warn them against continuing to turn away from the truth.

Deuteronomy 31
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.

Then there are the straight songs of Praise (but they should tell WHY we praise, not just command to genericly praise).

Nehemiah 12
46 For in the days of David and Asaph of old there were chief of the singers, and songs of praise and thanksgiving unto God.

Plus, of course, many many of the Psalms.

In CCM there are a lot of songs about praise, a lot of songs about worship, but more often than not the reason for praising and worshipping is missing.

In Amos 5, we see the reason God will not hear the music offered up by His people, the same reason he rejects other offerings: the people have turned away from reproof and have turned to false doctrines and false gods. They appear to worship God, but they have compromised truth.

Amos 5
22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
27 Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.

Try as I may, I haven't seen the back-beat mentioned. ;)

Andyman_1970

19th July 2004, 08:02 AM

Here we go again. :D

Why do we continue to divide our lives into ‘secular’ and ‘spiritual’? How many of you know that secular is not a God-idea, it’s a Greek-idea (invented by Plato and the like). So people talk about secular music, or "secular sounding" as though they’re being spiritual and have had a revelation from God. The whole concept of secular comes from Greek mythology. It's interesting how even after thousands of years Gnosticism still has an influence on the church and Christians today.

If you look at the teaching of the Bible there was no division between your natural life and your spiritual life, it was all just life. So whether we were in recreation, whether we were in work, or whether we were in service for God, it was all just life, it was all governed by the same principles, it was all open to the same blessings, because if that was not true, God would say, ‘I would bless you in the meeting, and I would bless you in the giving to the poor, and I would bless you in teaching the children in the Word of God.’ But it doesn’t say that. It says, ‘I will bless you in your basket, I’ll bless you in the storehouse, I’ll bless you when you come in, and when you go out. I’ll bless you in the field, and I’ll bless you in the house. I’ll bless you in the country, and I’ll bless you in the city. I’ll bless you wherever you go.’ The blessing of God comes on us, and in Deuteronomy 28 you will find that the blessings of God touched every area of our lives because God makes no distinction between natural and spiritual. It’s all spiritual, and it’s all natural. Just as God is one (Deut 6:5) we are to be "one" in our lives and not have a secular life and a spiritual life.

The Lord goes on in Deuteronomy 29 to tell them how He took care of their shoes, how much more "unspiritual" can you get than shoes. If you are a Christian, guess what? There is NO "secular" part to your life, none. Where ever you go, whatever you do, you are bringing Jesus to that situation, whether it's at work, at home, at the grocery store. Colossians 3:17 says "whatever you do, in word or deed, do it in the name of Jesus", notice here how Paul says "whatever" you do. How much of your life is whatever?

And we’ve got to get this garbage in our heads about our secular life and our spiritual life. You do not have two lives, you have one life to live. The funny thing is, there is no Hebrew word for our word "spiritual". The writers of the Scriptures understood that to label one thing as spiritual would make something else non-spiritual. To the ancient Hebrews that wrote the Scriptures, this idea of splitting life or splitting the world in to two parts was completely foreign.

And in music it's the same thing. You could be listening to the most 'spiritual' song, but if it doesn't help change your heart, then it was a waste of time. It was all for naught. Conversely, you could be listening to a 'secular' song, but if it brought life or a change to your heart, then bless God. Paul does the same thing with the writing of pagan poets and prophets in Acts 17 and Titus 1. In those passages he quotes these pagan writers and uses those writings to argue a case for the one true God (Acts 17). How did Paul know about those pagan writers? He would have had to have read and be familiar with their works. Paul didn't sit around in a "holy bubble" and only read "Christian writiers" or listen to "Christian music".

I don't listen to a whole lot of "secular" music, but I am familiar with what is popular, and I listen to Christian Rock and CCM which has been hugely helpful in my college and young adult ministry. Just like Paul I am using those "pagan" works (secular music not Christian Rock or CCM) to further God's Kingdom.

** The only prohibition in music (or anything for that matter) is "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." (Eph 4:29) **

bleechers

19th July 2004, 09:58 AM

I don't like statements like "a Christian should never listen to secular music". Andyman's post is a good summary. It also reflects my "depends on the recipient" argument. Surely, all we do should be done in the light of eternity.

Another reason I don't like the "Christians should never listen to secular music" argument is that it smacks of law. It makes law the guiding principle. Surely, we do things like watch the news that have no overt Christian message, but we can still look at these things biblically. I watch the "secular" news for info coming out of the middle east. I filter that info through prophecy and meditate on the scriptural implications, etc.

If I hear a secular song, I don't clasp my hands over my ears screaming "keep out, Satan!" No, I filter that song. Is the artist reflecting the world, the flesh or the devil? How has he missed the truth? Now, I can do this becuase I am under no illusions. In other words, I'm not gonna wake up one day and say "Hey man, John Lennon has the truth!" This is where it gets tricky. :)

A weaker brother may NOT be able to listen to John Lennon without being influenced. For him to listen may be dangerous and even sinful. Now, I shouldn't go out of my way to listen to Lennon and I shouldn't give his estate my money, but that does not render the act of merely listening "a sin". This is similar to my U2 example several pages back.

Scripturally, I am to think on good and holy things. If a song openly promotes wickedness, then I should avoid putting those thoughts in my head, but then again, I cannot say that what is true for me is universally true for the church.

If I hear "Give Peace a Chance" on the radio, I realize it is a piece of Lennonistic, socialistic tripe. It calls to mind the scripture that says "They will say 'peace, peace' when there is no peace" and the call of the Antichrist to bring peace. However, a young believer might think "Hey man, John Lennon knew about peace, why doesn't the church?" And then you get silly things like a church choir singing the idiotic "Imagine".

We need to teach people to think and react to things biblically (realizing our weaknesses). Laws never work, they merely empower the flesh. You can walk down a path everyday on your way to work... one day a little "Do Not Walk on the Grass" sign is put up and suddenly part of you wants to walk on the grass. That is what Law does. Law is good, but the flesh is only empowered by it.

:)

eldermike

19th July 2004, 10:23 AM

That is what Law does. Law is good, but the flesh is only empowered by it.

Amen

seebs

19th July 2004, 01:20 PM

Rejecting the distinction between secular and religious aspects of life does, indeed, matter a lot.

I have come to believe that every decision which affects other people is a moral question... And every decision affects other people.

Mary_Magdalene

19th July 2004, 02:17 PM

Scripturally, I am to think on good and holy things. If a song openly promotes wickedness, then I should avoid putting those thoughts in my head, but then again, I cannot say that what is true for me is universally true for the church.

yes, this is all i have been trying to say. you cant take lyrics that have things against God's Word and try to think it means something else. i cant take Madonnas "Like a Virgin" and think God is pleased that im listening to it cause i think of His earthly mother Mary. it doesnt work that way. we have choices-either they please God or they dont please God.

That is what Law does. Law is good, but the flesh is only empowered by it.

no, the Law defines what sin is. It defines what is against God's idea on how we are supposed to behave, what pleases Him.

bleechers

19th July 2004, 03:41 PM

i cant take Madonnas "Like a Virgin" and think God is pleased that im listening to it cause i think of His earthly mother Mary. it doesnt work that way. we have choices-either they please God or they dont please God.

I see what you are saying, but be careful what you say about the "Law" and what pleases and does not please God. The Law contains a whole bunch of stuff that I'm pretty sure you violate on a daily basis (been to the Temple in Jerusalem lately?).

There are areas that might be sin for you that are not sin for me.

Romans 14
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ...
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Colossians 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

no, the Law defines what sin is. It defines what is against God's idea on how we are supposed to behave, what pleases Him.

Um, no. Faith pleases God, not the Law. The Law brings only death. It is not our guide for life.

Galatians 3
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gentiles were never under the law to begin with. Obeying the law is (a) impossible and (b) not what pleases God. Law can only condemn, it has no life in it.

Galatians 3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Trying to obey some law (any law) will only empower the flesh. The worst degenerates are those who put themselves under the "law of celibacy". Even God's law empowers the flesh. The law was written for the flesh. We do not walk after the flesh by law.

Romans 8
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1 Timothy 1
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

If I don't murder simply because the law says "Thou shalt not murder" then I have barely met the minimum of the Law. We live under a much higher calling, the Law of Christ and the Law of Liberty.

Hebrews 10
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them...

cause i think of His earthly mother Mary

That's right. That's what YOU think. I just think it's a lousy song that has no edifying value to it. But that's what I think. :) Mary never even enters my mind.

I can't put that assessment on anyone else. Is there a principle that can be taught? Sure. When something is clear (as in the adultery spoken of in 1 Cor) then we can agree that it is wrong. But when something is not clear (subjective) then we are never to put someone under our "law".

Cast out the bondwoman (the Law) and be free. This is not a license to sin, it is a freedom to walk in the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 4
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise...
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

James 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

sunshinejennii

19th July 2004, 03:44 PM

seebs

19th July 2004, 03:48 PM

Ifa song isnt promoting wickedness, its promoting GOD openly and obviously and there is no other interpretation, but the music happens to be loud and heavy and occasionally the words are shouted rather than sung. Then its not something Jesus might have listened to? Then its inappropriate?!

What makes you think Jesus wouldn't listen to music like that? For all we know, He's a big fan of techno/industrial, and thinks Stomp is a great band. I don't think Jesus is required to like only elevator music...

Mary_Magdalene

19th July 2004, 08:31 PM

I see what you are saying, but be careful what you say about the "Law" and what pleases and does not please God. The Law contains a whole bunch of stuff that I'm pretty sure you violate on a daily basis (been to the Temple in Jerusalem lately?).

no temple to go to-Jesus is my sacrifice for sin.

There are areas that might be sin for you that are not sin for me.

no. sin is sin. Jesus didnt abolish the Law, He came to fulfill it. but i guess thats a different thread

Romans 14
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ...
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Colossians 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Um, no. Faith pleases God, not the Law. The Law brings only death. It is not our guide for life.

Not the law that was given to Moses. That Covenant is still in effect. When Jesus came to fulfill the Law-we should still try to be obedient to God but knowing we cant (and wont) Christ is our sacrifice for sin.

Galatians 3
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gentiles were never under the law to begin with. Obeying the law is (a) impossible and (b) not what pleases God. Law can only condemn, it has no life in it.

Galatians 3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Trying to obey some law (any law) will only empower the flesh. The worst degenerates are those who put themselves under the "law of celibacy". Even God's law empowers the flesh. The law was written for the flesh. We do not walk after the flesh by law.

Romans 8
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1 Timothy 1
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

If I don't murder simply because the law says "Thou shalt not murder" then I have barely met the minimum of the Law. We live under a much higher calling, the Law of Christ and the Law of Liberty.

Hebrews 10
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them...

That's right. That's what YOU think. I just think it's a lousy song that has no edifying value to it. But that's what I think. :) Mary never even enters my mind.

nor mine. just using that as an example.

I can't put that assessment on anyone else. Is there a principle that can be taught? Sure. When something is clear (as in the adultery spoken of in 1 Cor) then we can agree that it is wrong. But when something is not clear (subjective) then we are never to put someone under our "law".

its not our law. Im talking about God's Law. There is a big difference from the Law given to Moses vs. the additional laws that the Pharisees put into effect. Those are the man made laws Jesus was condemning. God is still the same God He was when He created the heavens and earth. He has never changed His ideas about holiness. we are still to be in His image. He just knew that without sending His Son as our sacrifice, nobody would be able to enter heaven.

Cast out the bondwoman (the Law) and be free. This is not a license to sin, it is a freedom to walk in the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 4
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise...
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

yes. we are free from sin because we have the Holy Sprit inside when we become believers-this doesnt mean throw God's Law in the trash.

James 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

ugh....yes we are all guilty. Thats why we need a Savior.

bleechers

19th July 2004, 09:18 PM

no temple to go to-Jesus is my sacrifice for sin.

But going to the temple is required in the Law? Do you suggest we just throw that in the trash?

Im talking about God's Law. There is a big difference from the Law given to Moses vs. the additional laws that the Pharisees put into effect.

I'm talking about God's Law, all of them. They have no power over me. They were never meant for the church and they not the standard bvy which we live. They are inferior to faith and inferior to the Spirit.

You said "no" to may statement that although the Law is good, it is also the empowerment of sin. That is not my opinion, it is almost an exact quote from scripture.

He has never changed His ideas about holiness.

Exactly! And the NT clearly states the Law can make nothing either perfect or righteous. It is specifically singled out as being deficient in this area.

we are still to be in His image.

Exactly! And Paul specifically says that we cannot begin in the Spirit by faith and then be "made perfect" in the flesh by going back to the Law. That is the entire argument of Galatians 3. Paul calls the notion "foolish".

we are free from sin because we have the Holy Sprit inside when we become believers-this doesnt mean throw God's Law in the trash.

Not in the trash, but we certainly don't try to live by it. It is the power of sin. We are even admonished to rebuke those who try to put us back under the law. Peter argued that the fathers couldn't keep it and to put Gentiles under the same yoke would be foolishness.

There is a law in Montgomery (AL) that states that I have to take care of my kids. I am responsible for feeding, clothing and educating them. Now, do I get up every day and feed my kids, provide for their needs, etc. because the law commands me to? Of course not. I don't need a law for that. The law is for law-breakers. I do what I do out of love. It is in my nature to care for my kids.

I don'r need a law to tell me not to commit adultery. I don't need a law to tell me that I shouldn't listen to Marilyn Manson... and if I do listen, I know that he (it?) doesn't honor the Lord. I don't need a law to tell me that.

Galatians 4 states that the law is merely a schoolmaster for a child. The more we mature in the Word and in the doctrines of Christ, the less we need of the law. Actually, in Christ, the law is of no use.

The law brings only death.

cadworm

22nd July 2004, 07:19 PM

If you consider Switchfoot and Third Day, "Christian rock" then I am guilty of enjoying the music. I am 49, and have been blessed and encouraged by the music of both groups, but particularly Third Day's worship albums. Sometimes I think we tend to "major in the minors". If the music is edifying and encouraging, and glorifies and praises Jesus, how can we neglect it.

We sometimes have the same discussion regarding the King James Bible. I prefer the King James to use for study, but I do reference other translations. If it is a translation an indivdual reads and understands, then it is worth the read.

I enjoy the old hymns occassionally, but I also am blessed by contemporary music as well. I am sure the music we sing from our hymnals is as different from the music in the 1st century church, as the contemporary and rock we listen to today is different from our hymnals.

Psalms 33, 96, 98, 144 & 149 encourage us to sing a "new song" unto the Lord.

Let His children sing.

;)

signalerror

23rd July 2004, 12:55 AM

I for one have seen young teens openly praise the lord with both classic Hymns and even now techno and rave style music.
I think it comes down to the lyrics and the mood of the song. If it is offering praise and helps to get people to loosen up and sing then im all for it.

23rd July 2004, 10:40 AM

and helps to get people to loosen up

Some people can become too loose, or too "open". Be discerning.

LaxItUp

26th July 2004, 10:18 PM

26th July 2004, 10:25 PM

If an artist's heart is actively seeking to glorify God through the message he is singing, then go for it. If his heart is in the right place, then the lyrics will follow his heart. I used to listen to hardcore rap and metal before I got my rear in gear and decided to follow Christ and I thank God that there are Christian artists who play music to my tastes. I have even given much Christian rap, metal, and rock to my friends who aren't Christians. Check the sig, that's what I am talking about...
Great point Lax. I would only add, don't trust the heart, and be careful because if you follow the heart you'll fall into error. Guaranteed! You know, I like music, but I love Christ. I've already stated my opinion on this subject so I won't go back and rehash it. I'm going to be doing a post soon on one of my sermon's where I taught about the hearts place in salvation. Check it out when I put it up. If Christian "rockers" were like Bleechers I wouldn't have any issue at all, but as he and I both admit, they aren't. And probably will never be. Anyway that's just 2 cents.

LaxItUp

26th July 2004, 10:34 PM

Great point Lax. I would only add, don't trust the heart, and be careful because if you follow the heart you'll fall into error. Guaranteed! You know, I like music, but I love Christ. I've already stated my opinion on this subject so I won't go back and rehash it. I'm going to be doing a post soon on one of my sermon's where I taught about the hearts place in salvation. Check it out when I put it up. If Christian "rockers" were like Bleechers I wouldn't have any issue at all, but as he and I both admit, they aren't. And probably will never be. Anyway that's just 2 cents.
Just a quick question, BT. Don't you think that if that person is actively striving to follow Christ, his heart will be in the right place? Going from there if they are seeking Him, then their lyrics will match the passion of their hearts. What do you think?

bleechers

28th July 2004, 08:59 AM

When I first started back into music with my friend (I took off about 4 years after I got saved to get grounded), our goal has always been the CCM Mag interview... for those of you familiar with me on this board :angel: you realize that it would be my first and last interview... if they had the guts to print it!

That being said, I support anyone who has decided to skip the whole CCM scene and it's "message"... but I won't attack the medium just because the message is weak? Heretical? Cowardly? (I say those in a general sense, even in the black-hole of CCM where "discernment" is considered a nasty word, there are a few rays of light... albeit, just a few! ;))

PS: I am really am a teddybear, when you get to know me... :blush:

Andyman_1970

28th July 2004, 09:51 AM

but I won't attack the medium just because the message is weak? Heretical? Cowardly? (I say those in a general sense, even in the black-hole of CCM where "discernment" is considered a nasty word, there are a few rays of light... albeit, just a few! ;))

Now I'll admit my taste in CCM is relatively narrow, other than some bands like Project 86, 12 stones, Kutless, I for the most part listen to pretty "mainstream" stuff, my favorite being Third Day, Casting Crowns, Mercy Me. I have heard and read on some pretty "fundamental" websites how bands like Third Day are just as you described(weak, heretical, cowardly). I guess my question is, how in the world after listening to their songs can someone come away with that impression?

bleechers

28th July 2004, 10:52 AM

I guess my question is, how in the world after listening to their songs can someone come away with that impression?

Let me quote myself: "there are a few rays of light... "

My point is, learn to discern.

There are many bands that appear to be "strong," but upon bliblical inspection they are just three thousand miles wide and an inch deep. You named a band, I didn't. What I am looking for is for people to discern every song, every word, every action by the Word of God. That just does not happen in CCM these days.

I could name some rank heretics in CCM... and prove it by quotes from their own mouths... but nobody would beleive me (see my painful struggles in the Contemporary Music Forum). Heck, one of the gods of CCM openly denounced the faith and he is STILL lauded as a "pioneer" and a great leader in CCM!

As I am weary of "Law", I will not tell you that you can't listen to CCM. I would just implore you to keep your eyes and ears open, and "search the scriptures whether these things are so." (Acts 17:11). There is some of Third Day that is OK, but I know of at least one song that is based on a bad misinterpretation of scripture... but if I dare point it out, I get slaughtered... that is the danger in CCM "fandom".

People (in general, not you) would rather follow, rather than discern.

Now you know why my music has such a large following ;)...

Andyman_1970

28th July 2004, 11:15 AM

There is some of Third Day that is OK, but I know of at least one song that is based on a bad misinterpretation of scripture... but if I dare point it out, I get slaughtered... that is the danger in CCM "fandom".

PM me with the song if you would. I promise no slaughtering on my part.............

Cright

28th July 2004, 05:31 PM

I'm not really "into" contempory christian music. When I do hear it on the local radio station (which isn't often) I enjoy it. If it's God focused I find nothing wrong w/ the "style" of music whatsoever!

If there were a Christian who wrote contempory, rock, pop, jazz, rap, techno type music would anyone have a problem with it if it had NO LYRICS?

Seriously... to say that the music itself is bad is silly in my book.

If the words are based from bible stories to teach, or are worship songs to worship our God or if they songs that glorify him... what's the prob?

(I'm not talking about specific groups/singers who have not had completely sound biblical lyrics)

Just curious...

Carina

Iollain

28th July 2004, 08:02 PM

I used to listen to Heavy Metal, i was a long haired headbanger lol, so i've mellowed out somewhat with age, and with Jesus, i like Third Day and stuff like that now. Was never too spiritual when hearing and singing Amazing Love until i heard the Newsboys sing it. My daughter likes "Christian Norwegien Death Metal" which i cannot find anything spiritual in until i read the words without the song. She claims it's great music. But then i love Stoneleigh, Vineyard; and Southern Gospel has always been a favourite, probably because my Grandmother listened to it on the radio when i was little. I guess it's just what ya like.

30th July 2004, 01:23 PM

Just a quick question, BT. Don't you think that if that person is actively striving to follow Christ, his heart will be in the right place? Going from there if they are seeking Him, then their lyrics will match the passion of their hearts. What do you think?
Sorry I kind of missed this question before..

In general? Sure, Psalm 51:10 says "Create in me a clean heart, O God;..."

But how do you (anyone) know if an "artist" is actively striving to follow Christ? Which begs the question, How do you know that person's heart? Only God knows. Lyrics match nothing but what they write on paper. I don't have to be right with God to write down "Praise the Lord". I don't even have to be right with God to make up a song based on Biblical ideas or some old sermon that I once heard. This is exactly the problem that I was talking about. You can't trust in someone because they have passionate lyrics, or because they are a leader, or because they "sound" holy or seem to be on the right path. You might listen to say Michael W Smith and think wow this is a solid man of God, meanwhile he could be (this is an example only not true) shooting heroin three times a week. You just don't know. Words are words and do not necessarily reflect the heart or the soul of the author.

Let me put it another way. Over the past few months I think I've come to be somewhat well respected here on CF. I think (and I could be way wrong) that some people have come to value my opinion and or trust my teaching in some things. But you don't really know me. I could get off of CF and go smack my wife around. I could write a long Biblical answer to someone while I'm sitting here smoking dope. I could finish a giving out blessings for a question of the week and proceed to download porn. You don't know... (ok this does not apply to OracleX since he does know me in real life... so :P Oracle)

Now with me it's a bit different because we are interactive. You can ask me questions and see how I answer you and others.. to see if there is "fruit" evident (I'll let you decide that on your own, you could all think I'm a huge heretic for all I know, in which case this post makes me look even dumber ;) ). You can judge me differently because you know me somewhat and (hopefully) can judge me heart etc. But these "artists" you only know by their music, and press releases, interviews etc. You have no idea what they are really like, or if in their lives there is "fruit" evident. That's the grand joke of it all, and the reason for my warning. Listen, if you want to listen to CCM you aren't going to get blasted from me. If you start to think that there is a whole lot of "meat" in CCM you will have disagreements with me. If you start to substitute CCM artists for your pastor, you're going to have a lot of trouble with me. If you substitute preaching for what you "learn" from CCM you're going to have truck loads of trouble from me. If you want to listen to it, and it makes you "feel" good and that's it... more power to you. Just beware of "feelings" and beware of "wolves in sheep's clothing"... as I said before, Be Discerning.

Ack! That's a long one... sorry

bleechers

30th July 2004, 01:48 PM

I don't even have to be right with God to make up a song based on Biblical ideas or some old sermon that I once heard

Heck, I'd be happy if they actually tried once in a while! ;)

But these "artists" you only know by their music, and press releases, interviews etc.

That's usually enough to determine that most of them have no concept of "doctrine"... I take that back, most of them are familiar with the concept, but in CCM "doctrine" is treated as a bad word (as in: "Doctrine divides!" and other similar nonsense... for the record, it does "divide," but that's a good thing!).

I don't have to be right with God to write down "Praise the Lord".

You don't even have to be a Christian!

hola

30th July 2004, 06:22 PM

It probably has been mentioned...I didn't see it in any of the posts that I skimmed through, though. I don't want to re-post anything or spam...but I just thought about that if something offends our "brother in Christ", we should abstain from it...even if we don't have a problem with it...maybe it's not an actual sin in itself. Some argue about what day to worship on, and other things which seem like sins to some (if you don't worship on Saturday some may think that that's a sin-then again maybe the question should be "What is true worship?"). But in order not to offend them...we should abstain from things that cause our "brother in Christ" to stumble, if they are weak. I can agree with many things that have been from both sides...but I can't really draw a clear dividing line. I've tried before...but I've not been able to. But we may offend people in a lot of things...and it's easy to try to start pleasing everyone. One obvious thing that may offend some, that Christians know not to worry about, is the offense of the cross (even here some people differ in their understanding of this). I believe you all may already know this stuff anyway...I just thought to add it.

bleechers

30th July 2004, 11:06 PM

Hola, hola. ;)

Well said. Some of that was mixed into the previous 7 pages, but you summed it up well.

I play CCM, but when some folks in my local church tried to make me the posterboy for bringing CCM into the meetings... I was out the door. Hey, I don't want to stumble anybody! I know people who firmly believe that the back-beat will turn their minds into Satan's playland if they hear it... I'm sorry they're under that bondage, but I won't be the cause of strife (particularly over such a non-essential like contemporary music) ina brother's life.

Again, good post! :clap:

seebs

30th July 2004, 11:14 PM

30th July 2004, 11:30 PM

Note: Not "abstain entirely". "Abstain when they're around". You live your own life, and they don't get to tell you what to do, any more than you push something at them that they don't want or can't handle.
I think that depends on who you are and what your position (in the church or in leadership is). IMO

Carl Carlson

2nd August 2004, 01:58 PM

What God puts inside us we should use for His glory. We all have been given talents from our Father. We can waste them and end up with nothing, or we can put them to work in the Kingdom. Interpret that how you will. I believe God has raised up people in all walks of life and music is one of them. Christian music has exploded in the last 10 years and I believe God has blessed it. I don't believe that it's all good, but God is doing awesome things with it. I will not stand in the way of what God is doing. I will be His hands and feet and use my talents accordingly. We are not working for ourselves, but for a greater cause. If God wants to use music to further His Kingdom, then I pray that this world will be changed and brought to Him as a result. Glory to God! Thank you and God bless.

2nd August 2004, 04:38 PM

What God puts inside us we should use for His glory.
Be very careful with this line of thinking. Very very very careful.

bleechers

2nd August 2004, 07:33 PM

Christian music has exploded in the last 10 years and I believe God has blessed it.

Qualify and quantify this...

In the last 10 years, ecumenism (the bad kind) has exploded; "seeker-sensitive" preaching has surpassed gospel (i.e. biblical) preaching; false teachers have grown greater in power and influence; godless Psychology has crept into the church and has replaced the Bible as the sourse of counseling in much of the church; discernment has become a lost doctrine; separation has become a bad word...

In almost all of these instances, CCM has played a part. Remember, I don't blame the medium, but the industry (on the whole) is weak, childish, simplistic, anti-doctrinal and ecumenical.

I hear things like "hey, man, he might not know about doctrine, but he really loves Jesus." and "They don't shove God down people's throats. Doctrine divides." etc...

This is what happens when nobody is held accountable for what they say or do. This is what has happened to CCM in the past decade. Check out the thread on Carman in the contemporary music forum... I pointed out his false doctrine and all I got was stuf like "touch not, God's anointed" and similar unbiblical (ripped from its context) drivel.

Learn to Discern!!

The NT repeatedly warns that false doctrine will arise from within and deceive many. CCM has been a key conduit.

:sigh:

Carl Carlson

3rd August 2004, 01:58 PM

Be very careful with this line of thinking. Very very very careful.
BT, you should understand that when I say "God puts in us", I mean, "God puts in us".
This doesn't include everything, as some may contend. That God made everything, so everything is good. What I mean to say is "Spirit-breathed" and "God-revealed". This is different than what humans have done from the fall.
I appreciate the precautionary warning, I know where you're coming from.
Thanks and God Bless.

Carl Carlson

3rd August 2004, 02:03 PM

In the last 10 years, ecumenism (the bad kind) has exploded; "seeker-sensitive" preaching has surpassed gospel (i.e. biblical) preaching; false teachers have grown greater in power and influence; godless Psychology has crept into the church and has replaced the Bible as the sourse of counseling in much of the church; discernment has become a lost doctrine; separation has become a bad word...

In almost all of these instances, CCM has played a part. Remember, I don't blame the medium, but the industry (on the whole) is weak, childish, simplistic, anti-doctrinal and ecumenical.

The NT repeatedly warns that false doctrine will arise from within and deceive many. CCM has been a key conduit.

Please explain how Christian Music has had such a large impact on your complaints. Also, do you believe Christian Music is to blame or something else?

eldermike

3rd August 2004, 02:11 PM

The NT repeatedly warns that false doctrine will arise from within and deceive many. CCM has been a key conduit.

I agree. There is much good within CCM, but not all of it is good.

bleechers

3rd August 2004, 02:24 PM

Please explain how Christian Music has had such a large impact on your complaints. Also, do you believe Christian Music is to blame or something else?

Last first: Not to blame on its own, but it has been one way that the problems that I have noted have been introduced into the church.

Ecumenical: This is an easy one. Apart from Steve Camp (who was ostracized once he realized his years of error) the industry frowns upon making any doctrinal distinctions. To do so is heresy in CCM circles. One of the gods of CCM, Rich Mullins, mocked the faith, blasted "Evangelicals" in the third person, and pronounced works as being "salvific". He made fun of being "born again" as we understand it.

Was Rich ever called to account for his views in CCM? No way.

Carman has consistently preached false doctrine in his music. He blasphemes God in his videos and nobody cares! I point out specific false doctrines in his music and videos and all I get is grief (as noted above). The examples are almost endless in CCM

Simplistic: the Praise and Worship craze is quite interesting because the songs have very little actual praise or worship in them. The songs are so generic, Mormons can use many of them. Half the time, I'm not sure if God or if someone's girlfriend is the focus of the song.

Weak: Third Day badly misuses a scripture on a song and nobody cares. Why? Because nobody EVER cares what these people do with scripture or with doctrine. I even think that Third Day is probably one of the better bands in CCM, but even they are not immune to grave error.

The Newsong Christmas classic "Christmas Shoes" is so horrendously weak and doctrinally inconsequential that CBS made it into a Christmas special. It is sung by heretics and gospel-denyers of all stripes. That, on its own, does not necessarily disqualify it, but you can't even go to the text to explain why these non-belivers are misusing it.

It's not the music, it's the industry. The industry rewards weakness (with a few exceptions). Songs attacking the true church are lauded as "brave". Saying that you don't "get in anyone's face" somehow makes you "unique" (depite everybody saying it!). See Jaci Valasquez's #1 hit.

The eldermikes of the world are the exception (and he's not part of the "industry" anyway). The big CCM bands are generally ignorant of scripture, weak on doctrine and can't tell a Mormon from a Baptists (or think that the differences are meaningless).

This is an answer done in generalities for sake of space. There are some good guys out there, but they are neither the "heroes" nor the pace-setters in the industry.

Carl Carlson

3rd August 2004, 03:03 PM

Thanks Bleechers, I now have a better understanding of your point. I agree with some of the things that you have stated. There will obviously never be only Christians flying their banner in the Christian Music genre, and yes, none of them are perfect. Which to me, means that they are human. Perhaps many problems have risen in the church as a result of Christian bands, I don't know specifics, but I'm sure that it's happened. I don't listen to any of the specific artists that you've listed except for Third Day I have listened to some. I also have some problems with some of the Christian Music out there, but I don't completely trash it as false doctrine or heresy. I know that there are wolves among the sheep and there are tares among the wheat. I know that God will take care of that and I need to concern myself with having a watchful eye and be sure I am living by faith. I will admit not all Christian music is good, but I refuse to discount it all. God has raised up a generation that will shine their light before all men, even if it means persecution. Some of the problems that you're describing indicate that the end is getting closer and the enemy is picking up the attack.

[QUOTE=bleechers]
Simplistic: the Praise and Worship craze is quite interesting because the songs have very little actual praise or worship in them. The songs are so generic, Mormons can use many of them. Half the time, I'm not sure if God or if someone's girlfriend is the focus of the song. [QUOTE]

The vast majority of Christian Music that I listen to is Praise and Worship. I sing to and for God. I've been listening to less and less of the Christian Rock for some of the reasons that you've mentioned, but more for the sake of what God is calling me to. I'm not sure what P&W songs you're listening to, but I don't think that they're the same ones that I'm listening to. The songs I know are not generic, mormons probably stay away from them and it definetly isn't in the dark about who the focus is on. It's God, not the girlfriend, if you were wondering.

All that I can say is to find the music that you can bring glory to God with. Also, we can pray that God will make changes in the music that we view as Christian and to bring us all into His light on the issue.

I applaud the work that some of the Christian artists are doing to bring glory to God and the unsaved into His fold.

Psalm 33:3
Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.

Psalm 40:3
He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear and put their trust in the LORD .

Psalm 96:1
Sing to the LORD a new song; sing to the LORD, all the earth.

Isaiah 42:10
Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise from the ends of the earth, you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it, you islands, and all who live in them.

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Revelation 14:3
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

Also Psalm 98:1, 144:9, and 149:1

Thank you for your time and may God Bless all of you.

3rd August 2004, 04:14 PM

BT, you should understand that when I say "God puts in us", I mean, "God puts in us".
This doesn't include everything, as some may contend. That God made everything, so everything is good. What I mean to say is "Spirit-breathed" and "God-revealed". This is different than what humans have done from the fall.
I appreciate the precautionary warning, I know where you're coming from.
Thanks and God Bless.
Yer welcome

bleechers

3rd August 2004, 04:29 PM

but I don't completely trash it as false doctrine or heresy

Neither did I. :)

I told you I was generalizing for the sake of space. If I didn't make it clear, I play and write CCM and I'm in my church's Praise Band.

I'm not sure what P&W songs you're listening to, but I don't think that they're the same ones that I'm listening to. The songs I know are not generic,

This is my "filter" argument. As Christians, I believe we can even make the cry of the wolf to cause Praise for God in our hearts... that is, many of the P&W songs are written to carefully avoid doctrine (unlike the hymns), but since we "filter" them, they can indeed cause us to rejoice.

With that being said, it doesn't exonerate the music or the musicians.

The Rich Mullins/Carman examples are given to illustrate that the CCM world just doesn't care about doctrine. Its absense in P&W songs is accepted because even when CCM is openly heretical, nobody seems to care. So you and I can "filter" P&W music through sound doctrine and find true Praise... but on its own, it can be very generic. IOW - On its own, it offers a generic "god".

:)
Thanks for the thoughts.

Carl Carlson

3rd August 2004, 05:01 PM

Neither did I. :)

:)
Thanks for the thoughts.
You're right, you didn't. And you're welcome. Thanks for your post, I've come even closer to understanding your point and I agree with the filter, which is something that we all need to do in every aspect of our lives, music included. Just because it says "Christian" on it, doesn't make it good for us.

Thanks and may God reveal to us what is unseen and guide us along our pathway. God bless.

SumTinWong

5th August 2004, 10:25 AM

Went to Kingdom Bound (http://www.kingdombound.com) yesterday and spent the day with some great kids, who have a true heart for God. Now that is a generalization for sure, but from what I could see Jesus was being preached and kids were lifting Holy hands and rejoicing in teh Spirit of God.

As far as the music. I really enjoyed Jeremy Camp, but I am hoping that the rest of CM does not sway towards being STP, or Creed clones. Petra was way too loud, and to be honest until they sang one og the songs from the Praise album I was waiting till it ended. Now the main act was the Newsboys. I hadn't really heard of them, but I was blown away, by not only the music but the message. I tell you what, you can tell by the message of not only the songs but of the testimonies of their lives that these guys love God.

I am and will continue to be a fan of Christian Music, in any form.

bleechers

5th August 2004, 02:06 PM

The Newsboys have actually some of the best (most direct) lyrics in CCM.

SumTinWong

5th August 2004, 03:47 PM

I don't know what the lead singers name is, but he gave his testimony last night and it was incredible, valid, and it made me think back to when I was in his same spot. They are just as incredible live by the way.

Richard

5th August 2004, 08:40 PM

I personally dont like it ...... people get into the dancing and not the actully lyrics of the song to fully praise God with it

bleechers

6th August 2004, 12:26 AM

I personally dont like it ...... people get into the dancing and not the actully lyrics of the song to fully praise God with it

Well, as I've said, if you're not into it, you're not missing much...

===============

Hey, isn't your mood smilie the symbol for dancing? :P

SumTinWong

6th August 2004, 07:26 AM

I personally dont like it ...... people get into the dancing and not the actully lyrics of the song to fully praise God with it Something to think about. David was known for his dancing in and carrying on, when he sang to God. God considered him a man after his own heart.

The show I was at the other night, I saw 5,000 sets of hands lifted in the air singing "You are Holy, You are worthy" to their God. I think that your statement was unfair, in that not everyone does what you said. There are a great many who I believe do listen and do worship.

Carl Carlson

6th August 2004, 03:59 PM

Dancing can be and IS worship to God. I wouldn't scoff or judge how people worship their Lord and Savior. Personally, when I think of where I was, where I am now and where I'm going...forgive me, but I get pretty excited! I sing, I DANCE, I SHOUT!!!

I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see!!! I deserve death, but because of Jesus, I don't have to go to hell! I'm going to heaven to see Jesus!!!!

Nothing like getting filled with the Holy Ghost and praising God from your heart...however your praise is being displayed...

PRAISE THE LORD!

PaladinGirl

7th August 2004, 09:07 PM

I think some Christian Rock is Christ-like but the majority isn't. I have listened to Christian Rock before and I rarely here Christ or salvation even mentioned! Maybe it's just me but I think there is much better music out there than Christian Rock.

Iollain

8th August 2004, 09:12 AM

How can there be a better music than Christian rock for a person who only likes music of the rock style? We have a local CHristian radio here and the only time i like it is when they are playing praise and worship music of the rock style (or Southern Gospel) I just don't like other styles of music, what can ya do? When the old songs that are sung in church in the same old way were first composed, they were new songs that were up to date in their time, not that i mind them, but when an artist takes those songs and sing then in a new way, i usually like them a lot better.

PaladinGirl

8th August 2004, 09:49 AM

8th August 2004, 11:13 PM

Something to think about. David was known for his dancing in and carrying on, when he sang to God. God considered him a man after his own heart.

Well personally I can only find or recall one incident of David dancing, at that was at the return of the Ark of the Covenant. I don't know that he was known for his carrying on.

God did not consider David a man after his own heart because of dancing, singing or carrying on.

God sought a man who would obey his will unlike king Saul

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.

It was that David would fulfil the will of God that God considered him a man after his own heart...

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Albert Barnes states it very well..

Ac 13:22
Verse 22. And when he had removed him. This was done because he rebelled against God in sparing the sheep and oxen and valuable property of Amalek, together with Agag the king, when he was commanded to destroy all, 1Sa 15:8-23. He was put to death in a battle with the Philistines, 1Sa 22:1-6. The phrase, "when he removed him," refers probably to his rejection as a king, an