Gospel in the OT

[WarEagle]

I was on a Roman Catholic message board last night and stated that the Gospel can be found in the OT and that, if it were necessary, I could share the Gospel with a lost person without ever even leaving the OT.

The response was...um, less than stellar. They got really upset and started attacking me, as though I'd said something bad.

I went through the great passages where the Gospel is taught in Isaiah and they completely ignored them.



Has anybody here ever tried to share the Gospel with a lost person solely from the OT?

[WarEagle]

Just to clarify, here was my post that started all of the commotion.

It isn't meaningless at all. You claim that the Gospel originated with the Roman Catholic church, but the truth is, it's found all through out the OT, very clearly in the book of Isaiah.

That's why it's' so much fun to share the Gospel with Jews. They're absolutely shocked when you show them these things from their own scriptures.

In fact, take the time to read Isaiah 53:5-6,10-11 sometime.

Using the language of the Old Testament sacrificial system, Isaiah says this Person will lay down his righteous life as an atoning sacrifice for Israel's sins.

This confirms what the sacrificial system implied, that God's ultimate atonement would require the voluntary death of a unique Person, not animals.

Because he is God's perfect sacrifice, his death will purchase full forgiveness of sins. Therefore, it will not have to be repeated over and over again like the animal sacrifices. (In fact, it puts them out of business altogether.)

And His death will provide not only for Israel's forgiveness, but also for the rest of the world. Read Isa. 52:15.

This reads so much like a "Cliff Notes" of the Christian gospel that many skeptics charged that it was a Christian forgery inserted back into the Old Testament.

[WarEagle]

You know, I got curious to know whether or not the Roman Catholics here recognize the Gospel in the OT in places like Isaiah, so I went to the OBOB forum and asked.

This has got to be a Roman Catholic thing. Not only can they not bring themselves to answer the question, they want to deflect the question by arguing about every other thing under the sun.

What is it about the Gospel that makes them so defensive?

[trentlogain]

I've found that preaching Christ from the OT helps when you are trying to convert Jews. However, I don't know why anyone would adhere strictly to the OT when we have the NT, too. With that being said, I believe anyone can be saved from hearing either the OT or NT. If a person can even hear the gospel through a song or hymn that magnifies Jesus Christ and be saved then anything is possible (with God).

[WarEagle]

I've found that preaching Christ from the OT helps when you are trying to convert Jews. However, I don't know why anyone would adhere strictly to the OT when we have the NT, too.

The point wasn't that we should stick strictly to the OT, but only that the Gospel is spelled out in the OT.

[doughboy1234563]

i can actually see what you are saying... the faact is there is a reason that the old test. is part of the Bible. it is just as accurate to our lives as the new test. Kudos to you my friend

[trinityisunity]

The Old Testament is Christ concealed and the New Testament is Christ revealed!

[doughboy1234563]

very true very true! you can see Christ in alot of crazy things... i cant even begin to explain

[cremi]

Excellent point that you made, War Eagle. The Ethiopian eunich was reading Isaiah when he ran across and Philip and asked him to explain it to him. He then later asked why he couldn't be baptized. All from Isaiah!:clap:

[FreeinChrist]

I think the gospel in the OT starts in Geneses 3:15:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

'seed' is of the male - not the female. this was a promise to bring a seed - aka Seed that is furthur promised here:
Gen 22:16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, Gen 22:17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
Gen 22:18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

Pointed out by the Psalmist:
Psa 72:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Psa&chapter=72&version=nas#) And let all kings bow down before him, All nations serve him. Psa 72:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Psa&chapter=72&version=nas#) For he will deliver the needy when he cries for help, The afflicted also, and him who has no helper. Psa 72:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Psa&chapter=72&version=nas#) He will have compassion on the poor and needy, And the lives of the needy he will save. Psa 72:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Psa&chapter=72&version=nas#) He will rescue their life from oppression and violence, And their blood will be precious in his sight; Psa 72:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Psa&chapter=72&version=nas#) So may he live, and may the gold of Sheba be given to him; And let them pray for him continually; Let them bless him all day long. Psa 72:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Psa&chapter=72&version=nas#) May there be abundance of grain in the earth on top of the mountains; Its fruit will wave like {the cedars of} Lebanon; And may those from the city flourish like vegetation of the earth. Psa 72:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Psa&chapter=72&version=nas#) May his name endure forever; May his name increase as long as the sun {shines;} And let {men} bless themselves by him; Let all nations call him blessed.

[arunma]

You know, I got curious to know whether or not the Roman Catholics here recognize the Gospel in the OT in places like Isaiah, so I went to the OBOB forum and asked.

This has got to be a Roman Catholic thing. Not only can they not bring themselves to answer the question, they want to deflect the question by arguing about every other thing under the sun.

What is it about the Gospel that makes them so defensive?

It may perhaps be that Catholics do not believe in the Gospel. Or rather, what they call "the gospel" is so different from the Biblical Gospel that they cannot be regarded as similar. Catholics claim that salvation is found only within the Catholic Church, yet do enough doctrinal gymnastics that they can insist that false, non-Christian religions are valid means of salvation. Catholics are especially tolerant of the beliefs found in Judaism. In their dialogs with the Jewish community, the Catholic Church has gone so far as to claim that a Jew can be saved through the Mosaic covenant without placing his or her faith in Jesus Christ. Allow me to quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
As a Jew once explained to me regarding the agreement that has been reached between Judaism and the Catholic Church, the two parties have determined a means of bridging the chasm between Judaism and Christianity. The Christian faith hinges on our belief that Jesus is the Messiah, whereas the Jewish faith requires that Jesus not be the Annointed Son of God. Christians and Jews, however, both believe that the Messiah will come some time in the future. So Jews and Catholics have essentially agreed that when the Messiah comes, they'll ask him about his identity.

It doesn't take a professional theologian to see the infinite folly of this arrangement. It says,
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering-- since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. (2 Thessalonians 1:5-10)
When Christ returns, he will return to send those who did not believe in him to hell. Catholics seem to ignore the fact that when Christ return, the Jews won't have a chance to ascertain his identity so that they may believe in him; rather they will be judged according to what they believed in this life. The same is true, I might add, for people who called themselves Christians but believed in a false gospel, such as the one taught by the Roman Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church has done much since the reign of John Paul II to propagate the lie that Judaism is a valid path to salvation, and I suspect that the Catholics you spoke with were angry at you for challenging this papal teaching. I have observed that in Catholic communities, to deny the validity of Jewish teaching is regarded as highly intolerant. If you seek to do such a great evil as to convert a Jew to the faith of Jesus Christ, then clearly you must be a Nazi or an anti-semite, and could not possibly be concerned about the souls of our Jewish friends.

[FreeinChrist]

So lets discuss how the gospel is in the OT.
WarEagle, how would you show that?

[WarEagle]

So lets discuss how the gospel is in the OT.
WarEagle, how would you show that?

From my post in the thread in question:

It isn't meaningless at all. You claim that the Gospel originated with the Roman Catholic church, but the truth is, it's found all through out the OT, very clearly in the book of Isaiah.

That's why it's' so much fun to share the Gospel with Jews. They're absolutely shocked when you show them these things from their own scriptures.

In fact, take the time to read Isaiah 53:5-6,10-11 sometime.

Using the language of the Old Testament sacrificial system, Isaiah says this Person will lay down his righteous life as an atoning sacrifice for Israel's sins.

This confirms what the sacrificial system implied, that God's ultimate atonement would require the voluntary death of a unique Person, not animals.

Because he is God's perfect sacrifice, his death will purchase full forgiveness of sins. Therefore, it will not have to be repeated over and over again like the animal sacrifices. (In fact, it puts them out of business altogether.)

And His death will provide not only for Israel's forgiveness, but also for the rest of the world. Read Isa. 52:15.

This reads so much like a "Cliff Notes" of the Christian gospel that many skeptics charged that it was a Christian forgery inserted back into the Old Testament.

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

the gospel is very much in the OT, not just all the prophecy Jesus fulfilled (also in other books like Psalms, Joel etc.), but as a fore shadowing of Jesus' atoning work. Some examples of this are explained in the NT, like "Christ our Passover Lamb" (1 Corinthians 5:7)

I think studying the OT helps give a clear picture of God (when read in the light of Christ), and is so rich in beauty and help to the christian that it is very sad to see it so ignored...

BTW, I have seen the OT written off and ignored by people claiming to hail from many denominations, not only catholic.

[nzguy]

it is so awesome how Jesus' sacrifice permeates thru the Old Testament..

I like it when the rock is struck once.. and water comes out of it to feed the Israelites.. that is like Jesus giving His living water for salvation.. as The Rock.

Then the rock is struck twice by the same man again to get water, but the second time in anger,(sorry I should know his name) and God removes his blessings from him.. because you don't have to make Jesus pay for your sins twice! He had spoiled the picture of salvation that God was trying to illustrate to Israel.. of Jesus' living water.. being struck (crucified) for our sins and giving us water (eternal life).

I also like it how Adam and Eve were given clothes.. where did they come from?

thru the slaying of an innocent animal! (Picture of Jesus' Christ's sacrifice again)