The Early Church Did NOT Believe in Once Saved Always Saved!

[PaladinGirl]

Please see the quotes below from the early Church fathers to see that they did not teach once saved always saved:

"And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For 'cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.' " Ignatius of Antioch,To the Ephesians,10(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:53-54

"Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time. " Didache,16(A.D. 140),in ANF,VII:382

"And as many of them, he added, as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish...Yet they also, being naturally good, on hearing my commandments, purified themselves, and soon repented. Their dwelling, accordingly, was in the tower. But if any one relapse into strife, he will be east out of the tower, and will lose his life." Hermas,The Shephard,3:8:7(A.D. 155),in ANF,II:41-42

"[T]hat eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition." Justin Martyr,fragment in Irenaeus' Against Heresies,5:26:1(A.D. 156),in ANF,I:555

"Now, in the beginning the spirit was a constant companion of the soul, but the spirit forsook it because it was not willing to follow. Yet, retaining as it were a spark of its power, though unable by reason of the separation to discern the perfect, while seeking for God it fashioned to itself in its wandering many gods, following the sophistries of the demons. But the Spirit of God is not with all, but, taking up its abode with those who live justly, and intimately combining with the soul, by prophecies it announced hidden things to other souls." Tatian the Syrian,To the Greeks,13(A.D. 175),in ANF,II:71

"Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over
Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money
which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, 'For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.' " Irenaeus,Against Heresies,4:27:2(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:499

"But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwilling. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? is not this gift taken away from many?"
Tertullian,On Repentance,6(A.D. 204),in ANF,III:661


"Confession is the beginning of glory, not the full desert of the crown; nor does it perfect our praise, but it initiates our dignity; and since it is written, 'He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved,' whatever has been before the end is a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation, not a terminus wherein the full result of the ascent is already gained. " Cyprian,Unity of the Church,21(A.D. 251),in ANF,V:428

"Therefore, my beloved, we also have received of the Spirit of Christ, and Christ dwelleth in us, as it is written
that the Spirit said this through the month of the Prophet: --I will dwell in them and will walk in them.Therefore let us prepare our temples for the Spirit of Christ, and let us not grieve it that it may not depart from us. Remember the warning that the Apostle gives us:--Grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby ye have been sealed unto the day of redemption. For from baptism do we receive the Spirit of Christ ... And whatever man there is that receives the Spirit from the water (of baptism) and grieves it, it departs from him until he dies, and returns according to its nature to Christ, and accuses that man of having grieved it."
Aphrahat,Demonstrations,6:14(A.D. 345),in NPNF2,VIII:371-372

"Thou art made partaker of the Holy Vine. Well then, if thou abide in the Vine, thou growest as a fruitful branch; but if thou abide not, thou wilt be consumed by the fire. Let us therefore bear fruit worthily. God forbid that in us should be done what befell that barren fig-tree, that Jesus come not even now and curse us for our barrenness." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,I:4(A.D. 350),NPNF2,VII:7

"For what the Word has by nature, as I said, in the Father, that He wishes to be given to us through the Spirit
irrevocably; which the Apostle knowing, said, 'Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?' for 'the gifts of God' and 'grace of His calling are without repentance.' It is the Spirit then which is in God, and not we viewed in our own selves; and as we are sons and gods because of the Word in us, so we shall be in the Son and in the Father, and we shall be accounted to have become one in Son and in Father, because that that Spirit is in us, which is in the Word which is in the Father. When then a man falls from the Spirit for any wickedness, if he repent upon his fall, the grace remains irrevocably to such as are willing; otherwise he who has fallen is no longer in God (because that Holy Spirit and Paraclete which is in God has deserted him), but the sinner shall be in him to whom he has subjected himself, as took place in Saul's instance; for the Spirit of God departed from him and an evil spirit was afflicting him." Athanasius,Discourse Against the Arians,3:25(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:407

"Clerics who are guilty of the sin unto death are degraded from their order,but not excluded from the communion of the laity."
Basil,To Amphilochius,Letter 199:32(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VIII:237

"This temple is holier than that; for it glistened not with gold and silver, but with the grace of the Spirit, and in place of the ark and the cherubim, it had Christ, and His Father, and the Paraclete seated within. But now all is changed, and the temple is desolate, and bare of its former beauty and comeliness, unadorned with its divine and unspeakable adornments, destitute of all security and protection; it has neither door nor bolt, and is laid open to
all manner of soul-destroying and shameful thoughts; and if the thought of arrogance or fornication, or avarice, or any more accursed than these, wish to enter in there is no one to hinder them; whereas formerly, even as the Heaven is inaccessible to all these, so also was the purity of thy soul."
John Chrysostom,To the Fallen Theodore,Letter 1(A.D. 378),in NPNF1,IX:91

"But these sins were not after Baptism, you will say. Where is your proof? Either prove it--or refrain from condemning; and if there be any doubt, let charity prevail. But Novatus, you say, would not receive those who lapsed in the persecution. What do you mean by this? If they were unrepentant he was right; I too would refuse to receive those who either would not stoop at all or not sufficiently, and who would refuse to make their amendment counterbalance their sin; and when I do receive them, I will assign them their proper place; but if he refused those who wore themselves away with weeping, I will not imitate him
Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration on the Holy Lights,39:19(A.D. 381),in NPNF2,VII:359

"These are capital sins, brethren,these are mortal." Pacian of Barcelona,Penance,4(A.D. 385),in JUR,II:143

"Let us admonish each other. Let us correct each other, that we may not go to the other world as debtors, and then, needing to borrow of others, suffer the fate of the foolish virgins, and fall from immortal salvation." John Chrysostom,Concerning Statues,21(A.D. 387),in NPNF1,IX:363

"Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultery; but it is not the same thing to be put to the blush, and to be put upon the rack, to grow red in the face and to ensure lasting torment. Do you think I am merely expressing my own views? Hear what the Apostle John says: 'He who knows that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, let him ask, and he shall give him life, even to him that sinneth not unto death. But he that hath sinned unto death, who shall pray for him? 'You observe that if we entreat for smaller offences, we obtain pardon: if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request: and that there is a great difference between sins.' " Jerome,Against Jovianus,2:30(A.D. 393),in NPNF2,VI:411

"And, consequently, both those who have not heard the gospel, and those who, having heard it and been changed by it for the better, have not received perseverance, and those who, having heard the gospel, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe on Him, since He Himself says, 'No man cometh unto me, except it were given him of my Father,' and those who by their tender age were unable to believe, but might be absolved from original sin by the sole layer of regeneration, and yet have not received this laver, and have perished in death: are not made to differ from that lump which it is plain is condemned, as all go from one into condemnation."
Augustine,On Rebuke and Grace,12(A.D. 427),in NPNF2,V:476

"The faith of these, which worketh by love, either actually does not fail at all, or, if there are any whose faith fails, it is restored before their life is ended, and the iniquity which had intervened is done away, and perseverance even to the end is allotted to them. But they who are not to persevere, and who shall so fall away from Christian faith and conduct that the end of this life shall find them in that case, beyond all doubt are not to be reckoned in the number of these, even in that season wherein they are living well and piously. For they are not made to differ from that mass of perdition by the foreknowledge and predestination of God, and therefore are not called according to God's purpose, and thus are not elected"
Augustine,On Rebuke and Grace,16(A.D. 427),in NPNF2,V:478

"It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children--whom He has regenerated in Christ--to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also." Augustine,On Rebuke and Grace,18(A.D. 427),in NPNF2,V:478

[PaladinGirl]

"Let the inquirer still go on, and say, 'Why is it that to some who have in good faith worshipped Him He has not given to persevere to the end?' Why except because he does not speak falsely who says, 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, doubtless they would have continued with us.' Are there, then, two natures of men? By no means. If there were two natures there would not be any grace, for there would be given a gratuitous deliverance to none if it were paid as a debt to nature. But it seems to men that all who appear good believers ought to receive perseverance to the end. But God has judged it to be better to mingle some who would not persevere with a certain number of His saints, so that those for whom security from temptation in this life is not desirable may not be secure." Augustine,On the Gift of Perseverance,19(A.D. 429),in NPNF2,V:531-532

“The manifold mercy of God so assists men when they fall, that not only by the grace of baptism but also by the remedy of penitence is the hope of eternal life revived, in order that they who have violated the gifts of the second birth, condemning themselves by their own judgment, may attain to remission of their crimes, the provisions of the Divine Goodness having so ordained that GOD'S indulgence cannot be obtained without the supplications of priests. For the Mediator between GOD and men, the Man Christ Jesus, has transmitted this power to those that are set over the Church that they should both grant a course of penitence to those who confess, and, when they are cleansed by wholesome correction admit them through the door of reconciliation to communion in the sacraments." Pope Leo the Great[regn A.D. 440-461],To
Theodore,Epistle 108:2(A.D. 452),NPNF2,XII:80

"The branches of the vine. Thus there are branches in the vine, not that they may bestow anything upon the vine, but that they may receive from it the means by which they maylive...And by this it is an advantage to the disciples,not to Christ,that each have Christ abiding in him, and that each abide in Christ. For if the branch is cut off, another can sprout forth from the living root; but that which has been cut off, cannot live without the root." Council of Orange,Canon 24(A.D. 529),in DEN,79-80

"And they who mourn their transgressions certainly cast forth by confession the wickedness with which they have been evilly satiated, and which oppressed the inmost parts of their soul; and yet, in recurring to it after confession, they take it in again. But the sow, by wallowing in the mire when washed, is made more filthy. I And one who mourns past transgressions, yet forsakes them not, subjects himself to the penalty of more grievous sin, since he both despises the very pardon which he might have won by his weeping, and as it were rolls himself in miry water; because in withholding purity of life from his weeping he makes even his very tears filthy before the eyes of God."
Pope Gregory the Great[regn A.D. 590-604],Pastoral Rule,30(A.D. 591),in NPNF2,XII:62

"The remission of sins, therefore, is granted alike to all through baptism: but the grace of the Spirit is proportional to the faith and previous purification. Now, indeed, we receive the firstfruits of the Holy Spirit through baptism, and the second birth is for us the beginning and seal and security and illumination s of another life. It behoves as, then, with all our strength to steadfastly keep ourselves pure from filthy works, that we may not, like the dog returning to his vomit, make ourselves again the slaves of sin. For faith apart from works is dead, and so likewise are works apart from faith. For the true faith is attested by works." John of Damascus,On the Orthodox Faith,4:9(A.D. 743),in NPNF2,IX:78

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Good topic PaladinGirl. What do you believe the early church believed KEPT one saved, then, once one had received salvation? Because if it involves righteousness by works in any form, it bes heresy, regardless who believed it. But Moriah will wait to hear your answer.

P.S. Moriah does not consider 500 AD - 700 AD to be the "early" church -- that would be like saying the year 2607 bes the same time period as 2047 -- but we'll save that nut to crack later ... ^_^

[PaladinGirl]

Good topic PaladinGirl. What do you believe the early church believed KEPT one saved, then, once one had received salvation? Because if it involves righteousness by works in any form, it bes heresy, regardless who believed it. But Moriah will wait to hear your answer.

P.S. Moriah does not consider 500 AD - 700 AD to be the "early" church -- that would be like saying the year 2607 bes the same time period as 2047 -- but we'll save that nut to crack later ... ^_^

I am not certain but I am pretty sure that the early Church believed that reception of the sacraments is what kept one's salvation alive. Once you committed a mortal sin, you went to confession. Every Sunday or Saturday Vigil, you went to Mass and received the Eucharist. When sick, you received the sacrament of the anointing of the sick. If called and you were a male, you received the sacrament of Holy Orders. If called you received the sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

The sacraments are what keeps us in a state of grace. Therefore, I am almost 100% sure that the early Church believed that frequent reception of the sacraments is what kept one's salvation "alive".

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Ritualised sacramentalism bes not part of the truly EARLY church though. The apostles did observe the Lord's Supper together it appears but they did not make it a ritualistic sacramental observance but a memorial of His death. Priestly orders likewise, along with the whole hierarchical structure (of which we have but a rudimentary sketch of roles in the NT laid out) of priests, monsignors, bishops, prelates, etc. Matrimony of course goes back to Eden. ;)

The sacraments in the form you bes thinksy of did not come into existence until hundreds of years later. They bes not part of the Pentecostal faith (meaning the apostles' kerygma and didache and praxis). They bes later accretions.

Thanks for answering though, it appreciates your insights here. And Moriah completely agrees there bes no "once saved always saved" in the modern sense. We do not "get saved" by uttering some formulaic prayer asking Jesus into our hearts and writing the date in a Bible. Salvation bes a dynamic process whereby God first establishes a reconciled relationship with each of us through Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, and then in our lives sets about seeking us and drawing us to seek Him by His Holy Spirit active in our minds, hearts, consciences, etc. so that we may become aware of our separation from Him, our need of Him, and His perfect and complete provision for a full reconciled relationship with Him.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Well yeah, not all fundamentalists believe in once saved always saved. I certainly have my reservation about that… but then I definitely don’t believe it can be lost at the drop of a hat… if at all. Definitely eternal security once we go to the heavenly kingdom, we won’t fall like the angels did, but in this life I just rather stick to my guns, and not reject Christ and walk away if that is possible. I don’t need to keep asking forgiveness again and again, as if I need to keep nailing the Lord to the cross over and over, “it is finished” and all I need do is believe and follow, to simply accept, just as the scriptures teach.

However, I agree that in the OP is not the early church. I think the point here is do we follow church made tradition, which can be inaccurate to the word of God. Since we HAVE the word of God, we should follow that, not tradition made by man. Even in the first century, before even most of the references stirred up by the OP here (they not being early church), there were divisions in the church, and even those that outright taught heresy which Paul warned us about. So just because it is an old manuscript of some sort, does not mean it has a weight of gold. We stand or fall upon scripture, not tradition.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Good points AI. Moriah agrees with your statements above.

It has seen the results of "yo-yo soteriology" : ultimately it shipwrecks faith entirely. Yo-yo soteriology proposes that every time we sin we break our relationship with God and must repent specifically and thoroughly in order to be restored to that relationship again. Meaning not just be sorry for it but guarantee ourselves to never do it again, not even by accident which of course bes impossible, but which of course means afterwards if we do it again we apparently bes not "sincere" about wanting God.

The "yo-yo salvation" doctrine bes a harrowing, horrible lie from hell, and comes taught in tandem with the notion that every time one experiences a negative emotion, one has sinned, and not only that, but that one has made a deliberate CHOICE to experience that emotion -- yes, even in cases of automatic reaction where one has no control over how one feels inside in response to something, and yes, even if one successfully controls oneself so as not to make that negative emotion a cause for nastiness toward another. These false, despicable, nefarious lies from hell destroy faith and open the soul to demonic infestation. Moriah KNOWS.

[Vambram]

The Hebrew and Greek words for "salvation" imply the ideas of deliverance, safety, preservation, healing, and soundness. "Salvation" is the great inclusive word of the Gospel, gathering into itself all the redemptive acts and processes: as justification, redemption, grace, propitiation, forgiveness, imputation, sanctification, and glorification.

Salvation is in Three Tenses

1. The Christian has been saved from the guilt and penalty of sin, and is safe. see Luke 7:50; 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15; Ephesians 2:5-8; and 2 Timothy 1:9.

2. The Christian is being saved from the habit, the dominion, and the power of sin. Please see Rom.6:14, 8:2; 2 Cor.3:18; Gal.2:19-20; Philippians 1:19, 2:12-13; 2 Thess.2:13

3. The Christian will be saved at the Lord's Return from all of the bodily infirmities that are the result of Sin and God's Curse upon the sinful world (Rom.8:18-23; 1 Cor.15:42-44), and will be brought into entire conformity with the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom.13:11; Heb.10:36; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 3:2).

Salvation is by grace through faith, is a free gift and wholly without works (Rom.3:27-28, 4:1-8, 6:23; Eph.2:8).
The divine order is :: first salvation, then works. (Eph.2:8-10; Titus 3:5-8).


:groupray:

[cubanito]

In Galatians, Paul discusses this, and many other heresies, which afflicted the early Church.

The earliest Church was also communist, (Acts 4:34), have you sold ALL your belongings and given it to whom you believe is the Apostles' successor. If not, then you do not what the earliest Church did.

Yet much of what you quote is from sources that were rejected from the canon (Didache and Hermas) and from "church Fathers" adjudged heretics by later generations such as Tertullian and Tatian, who was expelled from Rome as a gnostic and heretic)

As to the "Church Fathers", most of them did have a strong legalist streak, not as advanced as some of your quotes which some are from heretics and rejected writings, but yes, many were unclear on Grace. It is said that of all the prominent ante-Nicene figures, only Marcion understood Paul, and Marcion was a heretic!They were also mostly strongly anti-semitic, believed the Earth was flat, and had some rather negative views on women. Some day I am going to post excerpts from some of the absurd things the "Church Fathers" wrote.

That is not to say they were without merit, and I should post some of their "Protestant" writings alongside.

However, as to salvation, no "Church Father" is more solidly affirmed by the RCC than St. Augustine. And Augustine was VERY clear on how Grace is unmerited and immutable.

JR

[Anglian]

The Coptic Orthodox Church, which dates from St. Mark's arrival in Egypt in A.D. 54 (which is, I hope, early enough for Moriah) teaches now what it has always taught.

Salvation is the divine gift through which men and women are delivered from sin and death (Matt. 18:11; Luke 9:56; Acts 4:12; Titus 3:5) united to Christ and brought to His Eternal kingdom (2 Timothy 4:18). Those who heard St. Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost asked what they had to do to be saved and were told: 'Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

Salvation thus begins with three steps:
Repent
Be Baptized
Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Repent, which means to change from what we have been to what we were meant to be in His image, and that we do through committing ourselves to Christ (Psalm 106:10; Hebrews 7:25).

Being baptized is to be born again in union with Christ (Mark 16:16; Romans 6:3).

Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit means entering into new life in Christ, being nurtured in His Church and to conform to His image (Acts 19:2, 6).

Salvation certainly demands faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:10) for we can, none of us, save ourselves even through works; works as a result of faith in Christ Jesus is faith made perfect (James 2:22, 24, 26). Salvation is 'faith working through love' (John 3:16, 17). It is therefore an ongoing, lifelong process (1 Peter 1:9).

Salvation is past tense in that, through the death and resurrection of Our Lord we have been saved (Luke 3:6; 1 Peter 3:21, 22). It is present tense, for we must also be saved by our active participation through faith in our union with Christ by the power of the Spirit (Acts 10:45, 46). But salvation is also future, for we must yet be saved at His glorious Second Coming (2 Peter 3:15; Philippians 2:12: Revelation 7:10; 19:1).

That is as I have been taught and as I pass on for this discussion.

In peace,

Anglian

[cubanito]

Well said, yee single digit blesser.

JR

[LivingWordUnity]

Coptic
- Due to their dependence on Egypt, many Coptic Catholics in Ethiopia/other parts of Africa followed the Monophysite heresy in the 5th.

- A small minority of Coptics returned to the fullness of the Faith in 1741, and retained the customs they had for the prior 12 centuries.

- A majority of Copts/Coptics in the world are not Catholics, and elect their own "pope" in Alexandria. They are often lumped together with the Orthodox Church (much to the Orthodox’s dismay, since they also view them as "heretics").

Ethiopian/Abyssinian
- Coptic Christians in Ethiopia who returned to Rome in 1846.
Source (http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/03/tomb_of_jesus_n.html)

[Anglian]

Coptic
- Due to their dependence on Egypt, many Coptic Catholics in Ethiopia/other parts of Africa followed the Monophysite heresy in the 5th.

I am sad that anyone still believes we are Monophysites. The Catholic Church no longer believes we are Monophysite, which is as well as we never have been. If you visit the Oriental Orthodox forum and read the evidence, you'll see this is the case.

- A small minority of Coptics returned to the fullness of the Faith in 1741, and retained the customs they had for the prior 12 centuries.
It is true that some became Catholics - a tiny minority.

- A majority of Copts/Coptics in the world are not Catholics, and elect their own "pope" in Alexandria. They are often lumped together with the Orthodox Church (much to the Orthodox’s dismay, since they also view them as "heretics").
As we have done since the days of St. Mark, as recognised by the Catholic Church in their many ecumenical conversations with our Pope, Shenouda III who is the 117th in line since St. Mark. You are aware that the Catholic Church recognises us as a 'sister Church' aren't you? (See the CDF document Dominus Iesus published in 2000). We have held to the Faith as once given from the beginning, when there was no Papal Infallibility, no Purgatory and no dogma of the Immaculate Conception; we are aware that our Catholic brothers and sisters maintain that these things are legitimate developments of doctrine, and we are in conversation with them to see whether this is so; in the meantime we accept them as findings of local western synods.

We have maintained the Faith in the face of Islamic persecution - and the ignorance of those in the West in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries who told us what we believed without ever asking how and why we had held to the Faith through persecution that would have driven many away. Do you really think we would have martyred ourselves from more than a thousand years for heresy?

Ethiopian/Abyssinian
- Coptic Christians in Ethiopia who returned to Rome in 1846.I think I'd check my sources here. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is part of the Oriental Orthodox family of Churches and has been so from the start; it is not part of the Catholic Church. There may be a few Ethiopians who converted in 1846, but the vast majority remain part of the Church presided over by the Patriarch.

I don't much mind being called a heretic by someone whose knowledge of this seems a little shaky, but it isn't a very nice thing to be called - and it is not accurate.

If you can show exactly why what my Church believes is Monophysite I should be glad to be corrected; if you cannot, the polite response would be to correct your words.

The Roman Catholic Church and ourselves remain in ecumenical conversations to try to deal with the legacy of a long and sad history. Both the late and great John Paul II and Benedict XVI have shown great respect for the spirituality and heritage of the Coptic Church; I would commend their example to all.

Anglian

[cubanito]

I know very little of the Copts. I do know that Nestor did not receive a fair hearing, and that the obsession with the exact terminology that led to a virtual civil war over a dipthong re the homoouisos(spelling?) got totally out of hand.

I think that to try and shoehorn God into human language in such a way as to fully detail His Trinitarian Being to absolute clarity is....well...fraught with danger.

One thing is certain, the RCC does NOT have an unbroken line of succession. Their lists are done in hindsight. Perhaps the Copts do have such unbroken succession, I do not know, but since I do not believe in Apostolic succesion, I don't care all that much either. What I care is what they believe now.

If Copts claim not to be Monophysites, fine, it is more than my brain can understand anyway. At least they do not claim to be the Only True Church.

JR

[nzguy]

It doesn't matter what 'the church' believed if it contradicts sound biblical teaching!

Also.. you have quoted from Emporer Augustine.. well there were plenty of Christian churches around that did not assoicate with Augustine's uniting of christians in to one universal church who stuck to once saved always saved.. well before Augustine!

these churches are in Catholic and Protestant records.. most of the records have been destroyed but some remain.. of independent christian churches who were persecuted and cut off by the universal church movements!

[DeaconDean]

I beg to differ, there were a lot of the ECF's who belived and taught "Perservance of the Saints."

CHAPTER 5. OF PERSEVERANCE.

Introduction (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_intro.htm)
SECTION 1. - Clemens Romanus (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section01.htm)
SECTION 2. - Barnabas (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section02.htm)
SECTION 3. - Ignatius (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section03.htm)
SECTION 4. - Irenaeus (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section04.htm)
SECTION 5. - Epistola Martyrum Galliae (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section05.htm)
SECTION 6. - Clemens Alexandrinus (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section06.htm)
SECTION 7. - Tertullian (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section07.htm)
SECTION 8. - Origenes Alexandrinus (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section08.htm)
SECTION 9. - Cyprian (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section09.htm)
SECTION 10. - Lactantius (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section10.htm)
SECTION 11. - Eusebius Caesariensis (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section11.htm)
SECTION 12. - Chronomatius (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section12.htm)
SECTION 13. - Athanasius (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section13.htm)
SECTION 14. - Macarius Egyptius (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section14.htm)
SECTION 15. - Hilarius Pictaviensis (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section15.htm)
SECTION 16. - Basilius Ceasariensis (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section16.htm)
SECTION 17. - Gregorius Nazianzenus (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section17.htm)
SECTION 18. - Oregorius Nyssenus (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section18.htm)
SECTION 19. - Hilarius Diaconus (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section19.htm)
SECTION 20. - Ambrosius Mediolanensis (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section20.htm)
SECTION 21. - Joannes Chrysostomus (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section21.htm)
SECTION 22. - Hieronymus (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%204/chapter5/chap05_section22.htm)
http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/gills_archive.htm#2

God Bless

Till all are one.

[LivingWordUnity]

Also.. you have quoted from Emporer AugustineSaint Augustine was a bishop, not an Emperor.

Before there was a Bible, there was dispute among the early Christians as to which books should be considered inspired by God.

So at the Synod of Hippo (393), and again at the Synod of 397 at Carthage, a list of the books of Holy Scripture was drawn up, and Saint Augustine was one among the forty-four bishops who signed the proceedings.

Hebrews 13:7
"Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith"

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Coptic
- Due to their dependence on Egypt, many Coptic Catholics in Ethiopia/other parts of Africa followed the Monophysite heresy in the 5th.

- A small minority of Coptics returned to the fullness of the Faith in 1741, and retained the customs they had for the prior 12 centuries.

- A majority of Copts/Coptics in the world are not Catholics, and elect their own "pope" in Alexandria. They are often lumped together with the Orthodox Church (much to the Orthodox’s dismay, since they also view them as "heretics").

Ethiopian/Abyssinian
- Coptic Christians in Ethiopia who returned to Rome in 1846.
Source (http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/03/tomb_of_jesus_n.html)

Isaiah 19:18-25 comes to mind

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

It doesn't matter what 'the church' believed if it contradicts sound biblical teaching!
It has taken Moriah a lifetime to come around on this question but whereas it once thought as you express above, it now considers otherly. By whom shall this "sound biblical teaching," which you allude to above, be defined then, if not by the very members of the Body of Christ itself whats personally experienced His grace and bes filled with the very Spirit that inspired the sacred writ in the first place?

Also.. you have quoted from Emporer Augustine.. well there were plenty of Christian churches around that did not assoicate with Augustine's uniting of christians in to one universal church who stuck to once saved always saved.. well before Augustine!You argue like a recent convert to Seventh-day Adventism or one of those other groups which confuses apocalypticism for the life lived by faith in Christ.

[cubanito]

The wind is blown to and fro, and from whence it began there are again it shall return.

Thus there is hope yet for Moriah.

JT

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Thus there is hope yet for Moriah.
:blush:
thank you

its only true hope bes in God's mercy and Love.
It has received His true love. Heb. 12:6
It does not care how this sounds to others. It bes grateful.