Birth control? (TMI)

[By Grace]

Okay, I read on the Judaism 101 site that the pill is okay, but condoms aren't. But also, couples are supposed to abstain during a woman's "unclean" days (which includes the week of AF as well as the week following). At the same time, I feel the Pill is not a good choice b/c it interferes with my natural hormonal cycles, and it can be an abortifactent (sp?). So that leaves NFP (natural family planning), except that means no sex for the second week after AF, too, which leaves only 1 week a month for sex!

We currently have 2 kids under the age of 2 (though Jessie is turning 2 next week! :clap: ), and both of them have been pretty high maintenance. Neither of us really wants another child, at least not anytime soon. So what does everyone else do to prevent unplanned pregnancies?:scratch:

TIA,

[Henaynei]

also know that coitus interruptis is forbidden by Torah - this si why condoms are not allowed, same mechanism

however, spermicides may be permitted, you'd have to ask a rabbi (some sites will let you email such questions) - I'm thinking since the pill is ok the spermicide might be also.

I have to say that if I had 2 under 2 - I don't think iI'd have all that much time or energy for sex - if fact I might really appreciate the Family Planning time frame!!! LOL

[brentsbaby612]

I have to say that if I had 2 under 2 - I don't think iI'd have all that much time or energy for sex - if fact I might really appreciate the Family Planning time frame!!! LOL


^_^, very true!
I have four under six (I've had a baby every 18 months ) Despite my families begging we still refuse to use anything but NFP. I got a fertile scope this time that tests my saliva, so far it's worked well. Nursing for more than 9 months has really helped too! We choose not to use spermicide since it kills the seed and I think that's worse that condoms. Not that I'd try this, but I heard that women in biblical times nursed 'til the child was 4, giveing them a four year break before the next one; don't know if that's true though.
I've been though haveing two under two and it's tuff, it's is actually easier for me now even though I have more since my daughter is older and helps out a lot!:D So hang in there!! It gets easier!!

[Mary_Magdalene]

I have to say that if I had 2 under 2 - I don't think iI'd have all that much time or energy for sex - if fact I might really appreciate the Family Planning time frame!!! LOL

AMEN!!!! lol!


(I have 3 under 4) ;)

[ShirChadash]

heheh -- I have six, and about 10 years between the eldest and youngest. OY!

:pink:

[muffler dragon]

This is one issue I would probably have difficulty accepting by a Beit Din. I have a very large problem with the pill.

It just seems very contradictory to science, in my eyes.

But anyways... it's late, and this is not the last thing I want running through my mind.

Nathan

[Henaynei]

^_^, very true!
I have four under six (I've had a baby every 18 months ) Despite my families begging we still refuse to use anything but NFP. I got a fertile scope this time that tests my saliva, so far it's worked well. Nursing for more than 9 months has really helped too! We choose not to use spermicide since it kills the seed and I think that's worse that condoms. Not that I'd try this, but I heard that women in biblical times nursed 'til the child was 4, giveing them a four year break before the next one; don't know if that's true though.
I've been though haveing two under two and it's tuff, it's is actually easier for me now even though I have more since my daughter is older and helps out a lot!:D So hang in there!! It gets easier!! Need to know: Nursing is helpful, but it doesn't stop ovulation in all women!

[Henaynei]

This is one issue I would probably have difficulty accepting by a Beit Din. I have a very large problem with the pill.

It just seems very contradictory to science, in my eyes.

But anyways... it's late, and this is not the last thing I want running through my mind.

NathanLOL - the Beit Din does not insist that you must use the pill :) However, Torah DOES forbid the "spilling of seed" - and at least one man was killed by HaShem for doing so..... the condom is the same as spilling seed ;)

Therefore, other methods must be sought ;)

How's THAT for a bed time story??? :sleep:

[insaneinthebrain]

However, Torah DOES forbid the "spilling of seed" - and at least one man was killed by HaShem for doing so..... the condom is the same as spilling seed ;)
Wasn't there a little more to that than just the spilling of seed? I may have to go look this up, but I would've sworn he was guilty of a more than just that one transgression.

[muffler dragon]

Wasn't there a little more to that than just the spilling of seed? I may have to go look this up, but I would've sworn he was guilty of a more than just that one transgression.

His guilt lay in the fact that he refused to allow his sister-in-law to carry on the family line; which in turn left her somewhat destitute.

He basically used her for a good time and didn't fulfill his obligation.

Some people try to use this against contraception in general, but I find that quite faulty.

I should have clarified this before, but I have studied and read about the side-effects of estrogen in abnormal quantities. My wife also has a difficult time with it. I find the pill, and its proponents, to be suspect in their methodology and scientific inquiry. Granted, this is just my opinion, but I feel that it is well informed and sound.

Nathan

[Henaynei]

Birth control and Genesis 38 (http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/birthcontrol.html) (there is much more in the full article)

"We can look at Genesis 38 itself to see that the argument that Onan was killed because of his refusing to fulfill the obligation to raise up children is insufficient. This theory that God is punishing Onan merely because he failed to fulfill the Levirate rule makes God capricious.

For example, in this very chapter of Genesis, not only does Judah not get punished for doing the very same thing as Onan did, (withholding his son Selah from her), but Selah himself withholds himself from her. Given that Judah himself compounds the problem by making her a harlot, Onan's specific act of destroying seed takes a larger picture. Judah had promised to give Tamar his son to her (v.11), when he was older. Judah himself is deceitful, and he himself, when caught, admits that he is a worse sinner than herself (v. 26). Shelah himself, who was now grown up, (v. 14), also was deceitful, should have taken her as her husband, and raised up children. He did not. Tamar notices this, but no deaths of either Judah or Shelah. Thus, they were all in a sense rebellious, and did not do what they should have. So, what is the difference between Judah, Onan, and Shelah?

The only substantive fact is that Onan went into her lawfully as he married her (unlike Judah who went into her unlawfully), but only Onan destroyed the seed. Ultimately any attempt to exclude this as the principle grounds of Onan's death, is a pure attempt at expediency."

[insaneinthebrain]

Birth control and Genesis 38 (http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/birthcontrol.html) (there is much more in the full article)

"We can look at Genesis 38 itself to see that the argument that Onan was killed because of his refusing to fulfill the obligation to raise up children is insufficient. This theory that God is punishing Onan merely because he failed to fulfill the Levirate rule makes God capricious.

For example, in this very chapter of Genesis, not only does Judah not get punished for doing the very same thing as Onan did, (withholding his son Selah from her), but Selah himself withholds himself from her. Given that Judah himself compounds the problem by making her a harlot, Onan's specific act of destroying seed takes a larger picture. Judah had promised to give Tamar his son to her (v.11), when he was older. Judah himself is deceitful, and he himself, when caught, admits that he is a worse sinner than herself (v. 26). Shelah himself, who was now grown up, (v. 14), also was deceitful, should have taken her as her husband, and raised up children. He did not. Tamar notices this, but no deaths of either Judah or Shelah. Thus, they were all in a sense rebellious, and did not do what they should have. So, what is the difference between Judah, Onan, and Shelah?

The only substantive fact is that Onan went into her lawfully as he married her (unlike Judah who went into her unlawfully), but only Onan destroyed the seed. Ultimately any attempt to exclude this as the principle grounds of Onan's death, is a pure attempt at expediency."
I had heard what muffler dragon referenced, but this is also pretty interesting.

[Katydid]

By grace, there is actually only about a 72 hour window in which to get pregnant. If you learn all the methods of NFP then you are fairly safe. With me, I don't last 7 days, so usually it is only about 10 days off for that and then 72 hours when it is "unsafe", yet, we are trying for another so right now we love those hours.

[By Grace]

By grace, there is actually only about a 72 hour window in which to get pregnant. If you learn all the methods of NFP then you are fairly safe. With me, I don't last 7 days, so usually it is only about 10 days off for that and then 72 hours when it is "unsafe", yet, we are trying for another so right now we love those hours.
Actually, we took a year to get pg the first time, and during that time I did a lot of research and saw a fertility specialist. From what I found, some women can get pg from having intercourse as much as five days before ovulation! Also, our second child was conceived while I was still nursing the first (so yes, you can get pg while nursing!). After it took so long for our first pg, I thought it would take a while for the next one, too, so I pretty much ignored the signs that I was about to ovulate. I guess this time we'll be more careful!

It just seems strange to me that Judaism would approve of abortion (in certain instances), and the Pill (which results in the destruction of an egg, fertilized or not--isn't that the same as, or worse than, destroying sperm? at any rate, it prevents the sperm from doing what they're meant to do) but would have a problem with a condom! I'll go back and read Gen 38, but I tend to agree more with insaneinthebrain and muffler dragon on this. It's important to my marriage that my husband and I have that time together (thus the reason I'm willing to occasionally sacrifice precious sleep!), but I just think it would be too much of a strain on our marriage to have another child anytime soon. So isn't our marriage more important than the millions of sperm that are disposed of each time? I think my reasoning is that even if there are no obstacles to the sperm reaching the egg and fertilization occurs, millions of sperm are still wasted. They must not be that valuable, in the grand scheme of things. I don't know how to explain the information that Henaynai provided, but maybe there's more to the story than what we're privy to? :scratch:

[By Grace]

By grace, there is actually only about a 72 hour window in which to get pregnant. If you learn all the methods of NFP then you are fairly safe. With me, I don't last 7 days, so usually it is only about 10 days off for that and then 72 hours when it is "unsafe", yet, we are trying for another so right now we love those hours.AAAHH--it ate my post! Okay, trying again... [edited to add: okay, apparently my original post did get through:sorry: --just ignore this one!]

From my extended experiences trying to conceive, I learned that some women can get pg from intercourse up to five days before ovulation! In any case, you can get pg while nursing, as that's what happened to us the second time around.

I will have to read Gen 38 again, but it just seems odd to me that Judaism would be fine with abortion (in certain instances) and the Pill (which results in fewer eggs being allowed to mature--isn't that as bad as destroying sperm--at any rate, it prevents the sperm from doing what it's supposed to do, and if even if one does succeed in fertilizing an egg, the fertilized egg is likely to be destroyed) but would have a problem with condoms! I guess my reasoning is that even if there is nothing blocking the sperm and an egg is fertilized, there are still millions of sperm wasted.

We're just concerned that it would be too hard on our marriage to have another child so soon. Isn't our marriage more valuable than sperm? But that intimate time together is also important to our marriage (thus the reason I'm willing to sacrifice precious sleep!). So now I guess I'm just relying on Adonai's grace to cover our less-than-perfect choice in an imperfect situation.

[ShirChadash]

AAAHH--it ate my post! Okay, trying again...

From my extended experiences trying to conceive, I learned that some women can get pg from intercourse up to five days before ovulation!
ding ding ding ding!!! That's how we got our one and only daughter ;)

In any case, you can get pg while nursing, as that's what happened to us the second time around.

And another bing!! Hence, our six children (we haven't used Bc other than periodic abstinence since we were really young in marriage). Of course, we don't mind having 6 children and there was no mistaking we would prolly have many children. :)

[brentsbaby612]

Also, our second child was conceived while I was still nursing the first (so yes, you can get pg while nursing!).

3 out of 4 of mine where conceived while nursing. But this is the first time I've allowed one of the babies to sleep with us. I let him nurse whenever he wants day or night. It's a technic my midwife told me about, and she gave a book called How Not To Get Pregnant. It's a good book but the author encourages nursing 'til four years of age(!) so that the children are spaced out enough. But it's definatly not for all women. It's just the only one that has worked for me so far! I've gotten pg on the pill, with condoms, and the VCF's (spermacide) put me in the hospital with a horrible kidney infection. So me and my husband came to the conclusion that G-d was trying to tell us something.;) NFP is definately the way to go!:)