Contrasting Unaccountable Traditions

[johnd]

I mean, if the scriptures are so anti-missionary then why all the help?

They should stand alone and the good rebbiym should have no difficulty at all showing where the Bible disproves Messianic Judaism.

Problem is, they cannot. Because the Bible does not. Instead, they have to resort to extrabiblical writings and traditions and peer pressure and threats against one's Jewishness and other forms of intimidation.

But you will note a blatant lack of scriptural proof... once the misinterpreted passages are shown to be interpolated.

Why can't we simply take G-d's Word for it?

Why?

[johnd]

This is precisely what has been done in America (in the Christian sense). The Constitution was not written from a deist perspective as some claim but from the perspective that if Christianity be true then it will stand on its own (on the Bible) rather than making it a religion of State.

When folks asked me about Romney running for office, I told them I had not problem voting for a Mormon for President. I have a problem with Mormonism because it is unbiblical. But Romney would not and could not have turned the USA into LDS.

Small thinkers worry too much. It's God's universe, he should worry.

Our trouble in America is that the Bible has been outlawed. And secularism is what reigns now because of it. But let the Bible back into the public square and there is no doubt that Christianity will prevail on its own merits because it is true.

My mission in life is to reacquaint everyone with the fact that Christianity is better defined as Messianic Judaism (or more specifically... the way all Judaism was originally intended to go).

Shalom y'all.

[ChazakEmunah]

I dunno. It sounds to me like Yad L'achim don't trust the scriptures enough to expose the missionaries as frauds. Thought Torah meant Truth...

Oh well.
You might want to check out their organization before getting more exercise.... :)

[ChazakEmunah]

I mean, if the scriptures are so anti-missionary then why all the help?
What on earth are you talking about?


They should stand alone and the good rebbiym should have no difficulty at all showing where the Bible disproves Messianic Judaism.
We don't have any difficulty disproving it. Problem is.... Ya'll are using a different Bible. :)


Problem is, they cannot. Because the Bible does not. Instead, they have to resort to extrabiblical writings and traditions and peer pressure and threats against one's Jewishness and other forms of intimidation.
Of course we can disprove it, and we do on a consistent basis. All one has to do is look at the stats. Look at how many Jews have converted (on their own) to Christianity versus how many Christians have converted to Judaism or become Noachides.

As for the "extrabiblical writings" you should know, perhaps you don't, that we maintain an Oral Torah which is far more comprehensive than the synopsis given in the Written Torah. So we don't see it as "extrabiblical" but instead as part of it.

I have heard of cases of peer pressure and threats against Jews who lost their way, but that's only because most of the Jewish leadership doesn't know how to handle kiruv properly. These days education is a much more successful avenue.


But you will note a blatant lack of scriptural proof... once the misinterpreted passages are shown to be interpolated.

Why can't we simply take G-d's Word for it?

Why?
Again we're getting back to a couple of problems here. 1) We use different Bibles that were translated from different sources. Thus most Christians and Messianics lack the benefit of all the Jewish commentators. 2) To prevent misinterpretation from a Jewish perspective we have all the commentaries of the Sages like the Ramhal, the Rambam, and Rashi. This prevents misunderstanding.

[ChavaK]

Instead, they have to resort to extrabiblical writings



John, and this is not meant in a disrespesctful way...
the Oral Law is no more extra biblical for Jews than
the NT is for Christians.

:wave:

[johnd]

What on earth are you talking about?

I mean why muscle out a Messianic at all? The scriptures don't need the help.


We don't have any difficulty disproving it. Problem is.... Ya'll are using a different Bible. :)

Actually its the same. I am referring to the Tanakh. The NT came later. The scriptures referred to in the NT are the OT / Tanakh.


Of course we can disprove it, and we do on a consistent basis.

Not by the scriptures. By tradition, peer pressure, extrabiblical writings, but not by Tanakh scripture you don't, not even a little bit.

All one has to do is look at the stats. Look at how many Jews have converted (on their own) to Christianity versus how many Christians have converted to Judaism or become Noachides.

Case in point. Here you allude to extrabiblical evidence as if truth were determined by majority rule.

I doubt even you realize how much this kind of tactic has clouded your own judgment.

As for the "extrabiblical writings" you should know, perhaps you don't, that we maintain an Oral Torah which is far more comprehensive than the synopsis given in the Written Torah. So we don't see it as "extrabiblical" but instead as part of it.

Sure I know about it. Convenient. An "inspired source" which transcends the written Torah for scrutiny. Just fill in the blanks and trump the written Torah which was given to determine truth from fiction or error... wow... how do I get an oral torah of my own because theres' some things I'd like to hgave the way I want them too.

More later... I have to go to work... one of things I'd change if I had an oral torah of my own. ;)

[ChazakEmunah]

If the oral (extra) torah is not part of the bible quiz... this is a mote issue. If they are both using the same OT scriptures, then it should be fair to all concerned.
Umm.... We don't use the OT... Christians may, but we don't. We use the Tanakh as we don't have another set of books that we regard as newer Scripture.

[Lulav]

Umm.... We don't use the OT... Christians may, but we don't. We use the Tanakh as we don't have another set of books that we regard as newer Scripture. I think you Know what books she was referring to, and what Christians/Messianics, whatever you like to call us, refer to as the OT. Frankly, I don't use that term and have torn out the page in my bibles that say New Testement Old Testement, it is G-d's complete word, period. But I just wanted to say, you know what she was referring to and no need to take offense about it. And technically you do have a newer set of books, called the Mishnah torah, and talmud Sofeta, etc, because these weren't written down in Yeshua's time either. :)

[johnd]

John, and this is not meant in a disrespesctful way...
the Oral Law is no more extra biblical for Jews than
the NT is for Christians.

:wave:

Chava, my friend, I take no disrespect from your statement nor do I mean any disrespect in this. What I am saying is that if it is as good as scripture, then why is it not scripture?

Do you see my point?

Unless it is canonized scripture then it lacks the accountability of being the final court of arbitration that canonized scripture has.

Just trying to get to the truth in all of this... I mean the tanakh says quite clearly:

Zechariah 6:12-1312 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

HaNotsri... (the Nazarene, the Branch)...

Yet, some alleged commentary or oral torah somehow trumps this and all the rest of the teachings and passages in the Tanakh that point to Yeshua... does this not give you concern?

[johnd]

Going on the assumption that this is in fact in the debate forum now...

There are messianic traits in most persons mentioned in the Tanakh.

Adam (before the fall being created in the image of the last adam {Messiah}), to he and Chavah was given the first messianic prophecy (Genesis 3:15) seed of the woman (virgin birth)

Abel who died at the hands of his (jealous) brother for only carrying out the commands (such as they were at the time), Noah being a deliverer messianic type for his family to escape the wrath of God...

Abram in many ways (including his faith to leave his previous life to the wilderness of the Promised Land), and his intercessory prayer for Lot as well as experiencing the three fold nature of HaShem... and chiefest among the prophetic examples is the akidah (Genesis 22) prophetically being the Father offering up his only son... Isaac being that sacrifice... who lives after the experience... depicting the resurrection of the messiah

Jacob who chose the spiritual things over physical regarding Esau and the birth rite... depicting the two houses one of faith one of physical ancestry

The messianic prophecy in Genesis 47 regarding the scepter not departing Judah until Shiloh came (@ 6 C.E. the scepter was removed and Shiloh was in Nazareth).

Joseph was prophetic of the Messiah in many ways... betrayed by his brothers, thrown into a pit left for dead, sold off to gentiles afterwards to be revealed to them at a later date... being second in charge of all the land... providing a means of escape for the Jews in the seven year famine...

Haven't even left Genesis yet...

[johnd]

:scratch:

[Lulav]

Because of the Oral Torah issue being brought forth in this thread, I will be moving it to debate. Nope, still in the Main forum, are you powers down too ( with the site upgrade?):)

[johnd]

Moses, the covenant bringer / law giver. Deliverer of his people from slavery... Messiah delivers his people from the wrath of God (penalty of sin and the slavery to it). Moses spent 40 days and nights on Sinai, Yeshua spent 40 days and nights in the wilderness fasting...

He laid down his life for his people when HaShem wanted to wipe the sleight clean at the calf idol incident... Yeshua died for his people... Moses faced down the personification of evil (Pharaoh) Yeshua faced down HaSatan...

The Passover was instituted pre-law as the deliverance of the people who put the blood of the lamb on the door posts... The temple was being remodeled on Yeshua's time... it is very possible he was crucified on recycled lumber used in the construction of Zerrubabel's temple... but it is clear the Passover Seder points to Yeshua and the Triune nature of the one God... the afikhomen he taught was his body and the cup of redemption his shed blood in the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

The Rock Moses struck was Yeshua and the water that flowed from it is the Holy Spirit in prophecy.

Yeshua claimed to be the I AM that was in the burning bush.

Exodus 17 (like Genesis 22) depicts the crucifixion.

Leviticus spells out the infractions that the human race is guilty and continues the theme (through the Torah beginning in Genesis 3:21) with animal sacrifice that innocent blood must be shed to pay for human sin. In Leviticus it spells out the blood sprinkling of the high priest on the mercy seat on the day of atonement which validates all other sacrifices... Yeshua sacrificed his own blood (the ultimate innocence) for human sin...

Yeshua also presented himself to the Father in his resurrected form the morning after shabbos following Pesach in accord with Leviticus 23:11ff as the wave offering presenting himself as the firstfruits from the dead...

In Numbers 2 the camp of Israel in the wilderness was in the shape of a cross facing east. The banners of each tribe having significant and messianic meaning. Balaam later spoke of the star in Judah which hanabi Dani'el taught the magi about who came to Beit lechem @ 7 BCE...

In Deuteronomy Moses was far more detailed about the coming one:

Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Moses was the covenant bringer as is Yeshua:

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is from your own Bible, in fact the Torah.

What other source could possibly trump God's word?

[johnd]

Nope, still in the Main forum, are you powers down too ( with the site upgrade?):)

I think I saw this on an episode of Smallville...

[johnd]

Yehoshua

Yeshua (Yoshua)

lead the children into the Promised Land...

[johnd]

Various deliverer / messiah types including Samson who had an affinity for women who had it in for him (Messiah and Israel).

Ruth

The emphasis on the kinsman redeemer / davidic lineage (why Messiah had to be human in order to deliver us)


First Samuel

The people's rejection of YHVH for a human monarchical system.

Job

Job 9:30 If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean;
31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.
32 For he is {at the time} not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

The daysman being both God and man so he can lay hands on both God and man...

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

[johnd]

Isaiah 52:13-53:12

Yish
Sarar
Elohiym

He
Prince
God

the ultimate Prince of God is the Messiah himself!

Yisra'el the true suffering servant

[visionary]

Yehoshua

Yeshua (Yoshua)

lead the children into the Promised Land...This is a rabbit trail and if you wish I can take these particular posts and make a new thread just for them.

[johnd]

This is a rabbit trail and if you wish I can take these particular posts and make a new thread just for them.

Um, sure, please title it Contrasting Unaccountable Traditions or Codes with Holy Scripture (Yeshua in the Tanakh):

Thanks.

It has gotten off topic hasn't it...

But still makes the point that if Oral Torah was to have such an influence on Scripture it would be scripture and it is not.

I don't doubt the sincerity of folks... just that they haven't thought this through.

Mormons do something very similar in that they say that the Bible is God's word in as much as it is properly interpreted and of course they use their writings to determine what is and what is not the proper interpretation of scripture. But that elevates their writings above the Bible authoritatively. And what is not true for the Mormon's writings is also not true for any other writings than the scriptures themselves (or traditions or whatever).

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

The Lord even warns in all three major divisions against tampering with his word:

The Law

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.


The Prophets

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The Writings

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

[visionary]

Just for you ...Johnd