Messianic alert threatens Bible quiz

[HaReb]

Messianic alert threatens Bible quiz
An Israeli anti-missionary group warned that a Messianic Jew could win the international youth Bible quiz in Jerusalem.
Yad L'Ahim, a group of fervently Orthodox Jews who combat missionaries in Israel, said Tuesday that a 17-year-old Jerusalem girl who is among four contestants in next week's Independence Day quiz belongs to a secret Christian sect.
The daily newspaper Yediot Achronot identified the girl, but Yad L'Ahim's claims about her religious affiliations could not immediately be confirmed.
Yad L'Ahim's chairman, Rabbi Shlomo Dov Lipschitz, called for religious Jews to boycott the quiz if the girl is not disqualified.
"Missionaries will be greatly encouraged by the fact that a member of their messianic Christian community has a chance of being the world champion and will exploit this, God forbid, to increase their efforts to convert people in Israel and the Diaspora," he told the newspaper.
The Education Ministry, which oversees the quiz, said it had looked into the complaint about the contestant and decided not to act because she is considered Jewish.
The girl's father, whose first name was not given, told Yediot, "If anyone tries to hurt my daughter, I believe that God will pay them back."
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/108308.html

[ChazakEmunah]

Yad L'achim gets a lot of bad press in the non-Orthodox world but they do a lot of good. For instance, besides their anti-missionary efforts most are unaware that they rescue Jewish women and children being held against their will in the PA controlled areas.

[ChavaK]

The daily newspaper Yediot Achronot identified the girl, but Yad L'Ahim's claims about her religious affiliations could not immediately be confirmed.
I guess it would depend on what the contest rules say....which
I for sure don't know. If it is limited to Jewish contestants, then
she should be disqualified since she is a Christian. If it is open
to all, she has a right to be there.


The girl's father, whose first name was not given, told Yediot, "If anyone tries to hurt my daughter, I believe that God will pay them back."
Nice sentiment.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yahweh has said, It Is Written, and all my life I have never seen the righteous forsaken.
The righteous are led to the slaughter without resisting,
(they don't stand up for their own 'right', not even defending their own life, Rather trusting all to Yahweh's Plan)
yet
Yahweh is always True -
anyone who hurts one of His , even
.even if
anyone causes the Light to go out of the eyes of a Little One
.
Yahweh Himself take vengeance on His Own Behalf.
.
i.e. it is a very very serious thing to even think of hurting one of Yahweh's set apart ones. He does not let it happen unrequited (Judgment and Justice is Certain).
Tribulation is certain for martyrs in Yeshua,
just as temptation is,
but woe to the one through whom it comes.

[Lulav]

An Israeli anti-missionary group warned that a Messianic Jew could win the international youth Bible quiz in Jerusalem. Oh how awful that a Jew that believes in Yeshua as Messiah would know her bible so well.................................:doh:

I guess it would depend on what the contest rules say....which
I for sure don't know. If it is limited to Jewish contestants, then
she should be disqualified since she is a Christian. If it is open
to all, she has a right to be there. I guess you have a complaint with the Dept of Education then.............

The Education Ministry, which oversees the quiz, said it had looked into the complaint about the contestant and decided not to act because she is considered Jewish.

[ChavaK]

I guess you have a complaint with the Dept of Education then.............

Oh, I have no complaints with anybody.;)


a 17-year-old Jerusalem girl who is among four contestants in next week's Independence Day quiz belongs to a secret Christian sect.


I was not referring to the fact that she is or is not halachaly Jewish...
I was referring to her beliefs. If the contest is open to people of
any faith, she belongs there. If it is limited to people who are
of the Jewish faith she does not as she belongs to a Christian
group.
But either way, I'm not going to get all worked up over it :)

[ChavaK]

Yad L'achim gets a lot of bad press in the non-Orthodox world but they do a lot of good. For instance, besides their anti-missionary efforts most are unaware that they rescue Jewish women and children being held against their will in the PA controlled areas.

That's true; people seem to think of them as strictly anti-missionary,
but they are involved in many other activities.

[Lulav]

Oh, I have no complaints with anybody.;)



I was not referring to the fact that she is or is not halachaly Jewish...
I was referring to her beliefs. If the contest is open to people of
any faith, she belongs there. If it is limited to people who are
of the Jewish faith she does not as she belongs to a Christian
group.
But either way, I'm not going to get all worked up over it :) Last I heard Israel was a place for all Jews. It's one thing to keep them out if they believe in Yeshua, but if native born, do you exile them?


Since this contest is labled 'international' I would suspect that even an 'apostate' Jew should be allowed to participate, but I could be wrong. :)

the international youth Bible quiz in Jerusalem.

[Lulav]

The International Bible Quiz has been held annually for 45 years, sponsored by the IDF Education and Youth Corps, the Jewish Agency, the Defense Ministry, the Education Ministry, the Jewish National Fund and others.


Yad L'Ahim, a group of fervently Orthodox Jews who combat missionaries in Israel, said Tuesday that a 17-year-old Jerusalem girl who is among four contestants in next week's Independence Day quiz belongs to a secret Christian sect. It can't be that secret or this just shows the spying on people that goes on in Israel, is it truly that Democratic? We worry about Big Brother here in the US? :doh:

[talmidim]

It can't be that secret or this just shows the spying on people that goes on in Israel, is it truly that Democratic? We worry about Big Brother here in the US? :doh:It's not like that Sis,

If you are Jewish, you can pretty much believe in anything you like in Israel. And you can accept anyone as messiah you like and not be persecuted in Israel. There are atheist and Buddist Jews there that don't get hassled Israel. But if you believe in a CERTAIN Jewish carpenter is the JEWISH Messiah, then you have a problem.

First they claim you aren't Jewish. Then they try to get you fired or deported. They stone your car, spit on you on the way to synagogue and scream obscenities at you and your family. Women and children are not immune from this terrorism. CERTAIN Orthodox Jews start acting like Palestinian terrorists and send bombs disguised as presents to blow up your children.

It's no wonder Messianic believers in Israel live in secret. They are the most persecuted minority in the country. They have to dodge bombs from both sides of the conflict. And it doesn't matter to them that Yahshua was an observant Jew. If you believe in Him as Messiah, then you aren't a Jew. You are a "Christian".

What a crock...

[Lulav]

I am aware, I have family there and also Messianic friends. It's not about being a chritian, they tolerate them, its about being Jewish and believing it's heretical and you become an enemy of the state. Yeshua was considered an enemy of the state was he not? and he said that:

If they hate me, they will hate you too!

[talmidim]

I am aware, I have family there and also Messianic friends. It's not about being a chritian, they tolerate them, its about being Jewish and believing it's heretical and you become an enemy of the state. Yeshua was considered an enemy of the state was he not? and he said that:

If they hate me, they will hate you too!Have you noticed, people don't react as strongly to the things of which they are most confident? Seems like the "Orthodox" may not be as sure as they would like others to believe.

Orthodox: Right thinking.
Greek ortho-, meaning right or correct + Greek doxa, opinion (from dokein, to think).

There are many who characterize themselves as "Orthodox" or "right-thinking". But do you trust the agenda of a group whose self-title means that they are always right? And does this mean that Ultra-Orthodox are always right to the extreme? :doh:Nevermind...

[ChavaK]

There are many who characterize themselves as "Orthodox" or "right-thinking". But do you trust the agenda of a group whose self-title means that they are always right?



Oh c'mon, Talmidim....most groups think that they are
always right ;)

[Lulav]

That's because we are! :D

[Talmidah]

That's because we are! :D
^_^

[ChavaK]

That's because we are! :D

LOL, see you prove my point! :D

[johnd]

I dunno. It sounds to me like Yad L'achim don't trust the scriptures enough to expose the missionaries as frauds. Thought Torah meant Truth...

Oh well.

[johnd]

You might want to check out their organization before getting more exercise.... :)

Really?

thought the whole frap was over who was going to win the Bible familiarity contest.

huh...:scratch:

[talmidim]

Hey all,

That was the point. The ribbing was directed toward ALL of US that claim to be "right thinking".

There is only One Who is right thinking. The rest of US are just trying to figure out what He said. And the really wise among us are just trying to DO what He said in love, especially towards each other. :hug:

I think my peculiar sense of humor gets me in more trouble. I forgot that you need a flak jacket and helmet on this board. 'Been away too long... :D

[Lulav]

These days education is a much more successful avenue. Yes, in many ways, more for some and less for others.

[visionary]

If the oral (extra) torah is not part of the bible quiz... this is a mote issue. If they are both using the same OT scriptures, then it should be fair to all concerned.

[visionary]

Because of the Oral Torah issue being brought forth in this thread, I will be moving it to debate.

[ChavaK]

Hey all,
I think my peculiar sense of humor gets me in more trouble.
Nah, some of us are just dense and don't
understand when some one is funnin' us :)


I forgot that you need a flak jacket and helmet on this board. 'Been away too long... :D
LOL

[ChavaK]

Because of the Oral Torah issue being brought forth in this thread, I will be moving it to debate.

Yes, I see we have managed to get side tracked again, LOL.

[visionary]

Umm.... We don't use the OT... Christians may, but we don't. We use the Tanakh as we don't have another set of books that we regard as newer Scripture.

As long as it is the same books out of scripture... it will be a fair contest.

[stone]

Messianic alert threatens Bible quiz
An Israeli anti-missionary group warned that a Messianic Jew could win the international youth Bible quiz in Jerusalem.
Yad L'Ahim, a group of fervently Orthodox Jews who combat missionaries in Israel, said Tuesday that a 17-year-old Jerusalem girl who is among four contestants in next week's Independence Day quiz belongs to a secret Christian sect.
The daily newspaper Yediot Achronot identified the girl, but Yad L'Ahim's claims about her religious affiliations could not immediately be confirmed.
Yad L'Ahim's chairman, Rabbi Shlomo Dov Lipschitz, called for religious Jews to boycott the quiz if the girl is not disqualified.
"Missionaries will be greatly encouraged by the fact that a member of their messianic Christian community has a chance of being the world champion and will exploit this, God forbid, to increase their efforts to convert people in Israel and the Diaspora," he told the newspaper.
The Education Ministry, which oversees the quiz, said it had looked into the complaint about the contestant and decided not to act because she is considered Jewish.
The girl's father, whose first name was not given, told Yediot, "If anyone tries to hurt my daughter, I believe that God will pay them back."
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/108308.html (http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/108308.html)

I pray she won't accept any anonymous Purim baskets next year ey.

[stone]

Shalom John! :wave:

[ChazakEmunah]

As long as it is the same books out of scripture... it will be a fair contest.
Vis, we know each other fairly well. I didn't take any offense at all with what you said. I simply wanted to clarify things for others who may be reading this. Simply put, the Christian OT contains differences from the Hebrew Tanakh. The two Bibles were translated from two different source texts.

[ChazakEmunah]

I think you Know what books she was referring to, and what Christians/Messianics, whatever you like to call us, refer to as the OT. Frankly, I don't use that term and have torn out the page in my bibles that say New Testement Old Testement, it is G-d's complete word, period. But I just wanted to say, you know what she was referring to and no need to take offense about it. And technically you do have a newer set of books, called the Mishnah torah, and talmud Sofeta, etc, because these weren't written down in Yeshua's time either. :)
Lulav, Vis and I know each other fairly well. I didn't take offense at what she said. I was a little taken aback, since she knows we use the Tanakh, but I most certainly was not offended.

[visionary]

Yad L'Achim Chairman Rabbi Shlomo Dov Lischitz called for religious Jews to boycott the quiz if she is allowed to participate. The Education Ministry, which supervises the competition, has chosen not to intervene because under the law, the girl is considered Jewish.

No mention of which bible though in the article (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/145719)

[johnd]

Shalom John! :wave:

Shalom, Eben (stone)

[johnd]

... to believe and be saved:

Isaiah 52:
13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Isaiah 53:
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

[Lulav]

... to believe and be saved:

Isaiah 52:
13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Isaiah 53:
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. What has this to do with the OP?:scratch:

[stone]

What has this to do with the OP?:scratch:
think about it, what comes to mind?

[Lulav]

Are those part of the answers to the quiz? :)

[johnd]

What has this to do with the OP?:scratch:

As per Visionaries post, since this did get off into a reasons to believe the Bible, it should all be separated into another thread.

Sorry I got off on the tangent...

:thumbsup:

[talmidim]

I agree. This thread should have been split a while back. Nothing like hindsight! That said, you are doing a great job Vis! Don't let our second guessing bother you. :D

[johnd]

I agree. This thread should have been split a while back. Nothing like hindsight! That said, you are doing a great job Vis! Don't let our second guessing bother you.


:thumbsup::amen::thumbsup::amen::thumbsup:

[ChazakEmunah]

... to believe and be saved:

Isaiah 52:
13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Isaiah 53:
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Yep... Israel has had to endure much from the nations.

[Lulav]

Yep... Israel has had to endure much from the nations.

I f this is about Israel thus the Jews, then please explain

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

If 'he' is Israel/Jews, then who is 'my people' ??

[Lulav]

Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, one of the rabbis calling for the boycott, accused Messianic Jews of proselytizing in "very sophisticated ways." Aviner was quoted as saying that it is forbidden to give "legitimacy" to Messianic Jews by allowing their participation in the quiz. Forbidden by whom?

wondered why the rabbis should have a problem with a young woman who can quote the Bible. "It is about time that they stop having a monopoly over determining who is a Jew," Myers said.:thumbsup: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/11574621/

[Lulav]

I am listening from a report from Israel............... Rabbi Scott Sukelow is speaking to Calev Myers from the Jerusalem Institute of Justice in Isreal

Her mother is Jewish, they have ruled she is Jewish and she can participate. The ultraorthodox are now trying to get a ruling that the ultra orthodox children not participate. OY!

Calev Myers somebody reporting from Israel, he even touched on the Beresfords case.

jij.org.il his website

[ContraMundum]

I see this and I say...."Chicken!" :D

I guess they're afraid that they don't seem to be able to teach their people enough?

[ContraMundum]

Vis, we know each other fairly well. I didn't take any offense at all with what you said. I simply wanted to clarify things for others who may be reading this. Simply put, the Christian OT contains differences from the Hebrew Tanakh. The two Bibles were translated from two different source texts.

It is fairly easy to find a Bible translated from the Masoretic text- so I don't think it's much of an issue these days. A few years ago it might have been harder but most Bibles today refer to the Masoretic text and footnote the differences between that and the more ancient manuscripts. Besides, if the person went into the quiz with the wrong text and it effected the answers- would that not be fair also? (eg. if you have the wrong scriptures then you deserve to get the wrong answers).

[visionary]

I think that it should be clearly stated in the quiz rules which bible all must quote.

[christianmomof3]

The rabbis would rather cancel the bible quiz than allow a Messianic Jewish girl to participate.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1209627027490&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Both chief rabbis of Israel called on Tuesday to cancel the International Bible Quiz slated for the capital on Independence Day in protest against the participation of a 16-year-old girl who believes Jesus is the messiah.

[Lulav]

Maybe the mods could add this post to this thread

Messianic alert threatens Bible quiz (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7208494&highlight=bible+quiz)
.
.
.
.

[visionary]

Done

[Lulav]

I see this and I say...."Chicken!" :D

I guess they're afraid that they don't seem to be able to teach their people enough? Think about it, if a Messianic girl wins, they will have trouble convincing their own sect that the Messianics don't know their bible, therefore, don't know what they're talking about saying Yeshua is the Messiah! ;)

[Qalevra]

There seems to be an awful lot of malice directed toward the Rabbis. If Jesus taught that his followers would always be rejected, why is this a surprise? Why the indignation?


Thought Torah meant Truth...


It really means "instruction" ;)

[Lulav]

malice towards the "Rabbi's? How so? I see the Rabbis imputing malice towards a 17 year old Jewish girl just because she is Messianic.

[Qalevra]

malice towards the "Rabbi's? How so? I see the Rabbis imputing malice towards a 17 year old Jewish girl just because she is Messianic.

I suppose I am surprised at the reaction. If you believe Jesus when he told his followers to expect this, you could expect something like this to happen.

I don't like anti-Semitism, but I fully expect it on some level when I'm not in Israel. It was foretold in the Tanakh that this would be my lot as a Jew.

Besides, if the contest explicitly stated that only Jews could partake, then they reserve the right to disqualify Christians. If it was not explicitly stated, then she should have been allowed to participate. Whether or not that is fair is irrelevant. It's their show; their rules. It should be as simple as that.

[Tishri1]

I believe there would have been outrage any where from anyone at this poor girls plight and IMO their just scared she will win

[Qalevra]

I believe there would have been outrage any where from anyone at this poor girls plight and IMO their just scared she will win

I don't know why they would be.

[visionary]

Amazing isn't it that rabbis feel threatened by a 17 year old girl.

[Lulav]

I suppose I am surprised at the reaction. If you believe Jesus when he told his followers to expect this, you could expect something like this to happen.

I don't like anti-Semitism, but I fully expect it on some level when I'm not in Israel. It was foretold in the Tanakh that this would be my lot as a Jew.

Besides, if the contest explicitly stated that only Jews could partake, then they reserve the right to disqualify Christians. If it was not explicitly stated, then she should have been allowed to participate. Whether or not that is fair is irrelevant. It's their show; their rules. It should be as simple as that. I still am not getting what you are saying, perhaps it is because you are new here? That's probably it, I think because there are Jews posting in this topic that don't believe Yeshua is the Messiah and then there are Jews who believe in Yeshua as Messiah like myself as well as gentiles who believe the same, it is confusing to read all these answers thinking they are all one belief group?. So that may be you trouble understanding the answers in the posts?

but one thing you say confuses me, You are a Jew, a believing Jew? And you think that when you believe in Yeshua you stop being a Jew and become a Christian like it is a nationality? :scratch:


I don't' think anyone was arguing if it was fair, but that they were protesting her being a finalist. :)

[Lulav]

Opps, nevermind, I see your list of friends already, so you must be an Orthodox Jew, so you know who is here also.

Funny how you only here one day and have disabled your posts so no one can read them??

[WV25115]

Opps, nevermind, I see your list of friends already, so you must be an Orthodox Jew, so you know who is here also.

Funny how you only here one day and have disabled your posts so no one can read them?? I think that nobody's posts can be searched. I just tried to see your posts as well as visionary and Tishri1 and for every person I see this message:
Privacy statement in function, Searching has been disabled for this members's posts.

[Lulav]

Thanks
And you are?

[Qalevra]

Opps, nevermind, I see your list of friends already, so you must be an Orthodox Jew, so you know who is here also.

I am a Masorti Jew. I don't follow on your second point.

Funny how you only here one day and have disabled your posts so no one can read them??

What are you talking about?

[Qalevra]

And you think that when you believe in Yeshua you stop being a Jew and become a Christian like it is a nationality? :scratch:

The Jews are a people, not a religion. ;)

[talmidim]

The Jews are a people, not a religion. ;)In this you are correct - kinda. Because Judaism is defined as a culture, a people and a religion by any number of sources, both Jewish and secular. However, Jews are allowed to emigrate to the land of Israel if they believe in HaShem, Budda, Shivah, or no diety at all. But they are systematically denied entrance to Israel - or persecuted if they have already emigrated - if they believe that Yahshua is the Jewish Messiah. Even to the point of attempting to deny access to Torah competitions by the 'religious' powers that be.

Funny how that works. ;)

[Talmidah]

Law of Return 5730-1970 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law+of+Return+5710-1950.htm)

4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."

[Qalevra]

Here is my perception of the matter...

As for the Rabbinate, I don't think it's a matter of believing that Jesus is messiah, as much as it is worshiping Jesus as a deity. I would think that the Rabbinate does not make the distinction because the overwhelming majority of people who believe Jesus is messiah also worship him. The overwhelming majority also have a mission to convert others, including Jews, to Christianity, which is considered unacceptable.

You should also note the case of an MJ who was granted citizenship (I cannot yet post links) under the Law of Return because of his father's being Jewish. Since he was not raised Jewish, and was not halachically Jewish, his beliefs in Jesus as messiah were irrelevant because he was not considered to have abandoned Judaism, since he was never a part of it in the first place. You can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and be granted citizenship in Israel under the Law of Return as long as you 1) can prove you are at least 1/8 Jewish and 2) never were a part of Judaism (so that you are not considered apostate for your beliefs). Many Israeli Jews are uncomfortable with those laws, but that is the law right now.

As a side note, it should be noted that the Rabbinate also looks unfavorably on Reform Judaism converts who apply for citizenship under the Law of Return, because the conversion process is generally considered deficient.

[visionary]

Maybe that is why Yeshua stated over and over again... worship the Father. He knew the key to a peaceful resolution to this situation.

[Lulav]

I am a Masorti Jew. I don't follow on your second point.



What are you talking about?Nevermind, I understand now. ")



The Jews are a people, not a religion. ;)

Yes, to a pointI was answering to wht you said here

Besides, if the contest explicitly stated that only Jews could partake, then they reserve the right to disqualify Christians.

Her mother is Jewish, and has been declared so by the state. You instead overturned that and called her a Christian, negating the fact she is Jewish born, so you changed it from being a people to a religion.

[Qalevra]

Nevermind, I understand now. ")

I see the other post. That explains a lot for me as well. :)

Her mother is Jewish, and has been declared so by the state. You instead overturned that and called her a Christian, negating the fact she is Jewish born, so you changed it from being a people to a religion.

According to the Rabbinic interpretation, any worship of a messiah would be considered Avodah Zarah, and in the Talmud, there are guidelines regarding the interaction with those are regarded as such. These guidelines (as explained in the tractate Avodah Zarah Chapter 1 and 2) point clearly to the idea that those guilty of Avodah Zarah are considered seperate from Judaism. In this case, as I explained earlier, the Rabbinate does not make a distinction between believers in Jesus who regard him as deity and those who do not, because the overwhelming majority do regard him as such. Thus, in this case, she would be considered by the Rabbinate to be Avodah Zarah, having abandoned and now being apart from Judaism, and since she believes in Jesus, the label "Christian" seems to them to be the most apt description for her.

I hope this clarifies the Rabbinic position on the matter.

[ContraMundum]

Law of Return 5730-1970 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law+of+Return+5710-1950.htm)

The Law of Return could not apply in this case.

[ContraMundum]

I see the other post. That explains a lot for me as well. :)



According to the Rabbinic interpretation, any worship of a messiah would be considered Avodah Zarah, and in the Talmud, there are guidelines regarding the interaction with those are regarded as such. These guidelines (as explained in the tractate Avodah Zarah Chapter 1 and 2) point clearly to the idea that those guilty of Avodah Zarah are considered seperate from Judaism. In this case, as I explained earlier, the Rabbinate does not make a distinction between believers in Jesus who regard him as deity and those who do not, because the overwhelming majority do regard him as such. Thus, in this case, she would be considered by the Rabbinate to be Avodah Zarah, having abandoned and now being apart from Judaism, and since she believes in Jesus, the label "Christian" seems to them to be the most apt description for her.

I hope this clarifies the Rabbinic position on the matter.

This forum perhaps moreso than most, is more than familiar with the Rabbinic interpretation of this- and how muddy it is. However, what I would find more interesting is the perceived "threat" this girl poses.

[Talmidah]

The Law of Return could not apply in this case.

I wasn't speaking about this case. I was only responding to talmidim's post:

Jews are allowed to emigrate to the land of Israel if they believe in HaShem, Budda, Shivah, or no diety at all. But they are systematically denied entrance to Israel - or persecuted if they have already emigrated - if they believe that Yahshua is the Jewish Messiah.

Funny how that works. ;)


My error for not quoting him when replying. Sorry about that.

[christianmomof3]

Here is my perception of the matter...

As for the Rabbinate, I don't think it's a matter of believing that Jesus is messiah, as much as it is worshiping Jesus as a deity. I would think that the Rabbinate does not make the distinction because the overwhelming majority of people who believe Jesus is messiah also worship him. The overwhelming majority also have a mission to convert others, including Jews, to Christianity, which is considered unacceptable.

You should also note the case of an MJ who was granted citizenship (I cannot yet post links) under the Law of Return because of his father's being Jewish. Since he was not raised Jewish, and was not halachically Jewish, his beliefs in Jesus as messiah were irrelevant because he was not considered to have abandoned Judaism, since he was never a part of it in the first place. You can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and be granted citizenship in Israel under the Law of Return as long as you 1) can prove you are at least 1/8 Jewish and 2) never were a part of Judaism (so that you are not considered apostate for your beliefs). Many Israeli Jews are uncomfortable with those laws, but that is the law right now.

As a side note, it should be noted that the Rabbinate also looks unfavorably on Reform Judaism converts who apply for citizenship under the Law of Return, because the conversion process is generally considered deficient.
:tutu::scratch: So confusing.
So, I am 100% Jewish - born and raised in Reform Judaism. I am now a born again Christian. I do not consider myself as belonging to a religion though. :P I gave up religion when I quit practicing the Jewish religion. Now I just live Christ. However, I assume that I would be considered apostate and not accepted into Israel. My children, however, would be allowed? Is that correct?

[Qalevra]

So confusing.

So, I am 100% Jewish - born and raised in Reform Judaism. I am now a born again Christian. I do not consider myself as belonging to a religion though. I gave up religion when I quit practicing the Jewish religion. Now I just live Christ. However, I assume that I would be considered apostate

Correct.

and not accepted into Israel.

Not necessarily true. You can still apply for residency, but you would no longer be considered eligible for citizenship under the Law of Return.

My children, however, would be allowed? Is that correct?

That depends on a number of things, as this issue is less easy to handle. Were you a Christian when you gave birth to them? Were they ever considered halachically Jewish? Do they hold Christian beliefs now?
A good rule of thumb is that if one was ever a Jew and is guilty of Avodah Zarah, then they are not eligible under the Law of Return. The "loophole" is if one was never Jewish, but has Jewish ancestry (as little as 1/8), then they are considered eligible. For example, I knew many Russians while I lived in Israel that were Russian Orthodox, even if not observant. They were Israeli citizens however, under the Law of Return, because they had Jewish ancestry and were not apostates. Cases like that, however, are the impetus for calls to close the loophole.

I'm not sure if it does, but I hope it helps. :)

[Lulav]

Law of Return 5730-1970
(http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law+of+Return+5710-1950.htm) 4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."



'for the purposes of this law'

for that law defines who is a Jew, by those in Israel determining who is eligble to make aliyah. But for world wide purposes this is not what determines who is a Jew.

And if this girl is native born of a Jewish Mother and becomes a believer being native born, can they rescind her citizenship? What if she was participating in this quiz and became Bahá'í?

Would there be such an uproar? Would there be the Rabbi's calling for the others to disassociate with her, or to make new rulings, etc?

[Lulav]

Here is my perception of the matter...

As for the Rabbinate, I don't think it's a matter of believing that Jesus is messiah, as much as it is worshiping Jesus as a deity. I would think that the Rabbinate does not make the distinction because the overwhelming majority of people who believe Jesus is messiah also worship him. The overwhelming majority also have a mission to convert others, including Jews, to Christianity, which is considered unacceptable.

You should also note the case of an MJ who was granted citizenship (I cannot yet post links) under the Law of Return because of his father's being Jewish. Since he was not raised Jewish, and was not halachically Jewish, his beliefs in Jesus as messiah were irrelevant because he was not considered to have abandoned Judaism, since he was never a part of it in the first place. You can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and be granted citizenship in Israel under the Law of Return as long as you 1) can prove you are at least 1/8 Jewish and 2) never were a part of Judaism (so that you are not considered apostate for your beliefs). Many Israeli Jews are uncomfortable with those laws, but that is the law right now.

As a side note, it should be noted that the Rabbinate also looks unfavorably on Reform Judaism converts who apply for citizenship under the Law of Return, because the conversion process is generally considered deficient.



According to the Rabbinic interpretation, any worship of a messiah would be considered Avodah Zarah, and in the Talmud, there are guidelines regarding the interaction with those are regarded as such. These guidelines (as explained in the tractate Avodah Zarah Chapter 1 and 2) point clearly to the idea that those guilty of Avodah Zarah are considered seperate from Judaism. In this case, as I explained earlier, the Rabbinate does not make a distinction between believers in Jesus who regard him as deity and those who do not, because the overwhelming majority do regard him as such. Thus, in this case, she would be considered by the Rabbinate to be Avodah Zarah, having abandoned and now being apart from Judaism, and since she believes in Jesus, the label "Christian" seems to them to be the most apt description for her.

I hope this clarifies the Rabbinic position on the matter.


So we know what they think of those who believe Jesus is Messiah, but what about the Lubavitcher's, those who are still waiting the resurrection of the Rebbe? And how is that not Avodah Zarah as well?

[Talmidah]

'for the purposes of this law'

for that law defines who is a Jew, by those in Israel determining who is eligble to make aliyah. But for world wide purposes this is not what determines who is a Jew.

And if this girl is native born of a Jewish Mother and becomes a believer being native born, can they rescind her citizenship? What if she was participating in this quiz and became Bahá'í?

Would there be such an uproar? Would there be the Rabbi's calling for the others to disassociate with her, or to make new rulings, etc?

As I stated, I was not speaking about this case. I couldn't care less about this contest. I don't know how the rules were written and considering the contest is over and this girl didn't even place, its a non-issue to me.

All I was doing was responding to talmidim's post regarding emigrating to Israel:
Jews are allowed to emigrate to the land of Israel if they believe in HaShem, Budda, Shivah, or no diety at all. But they are systematically denied entrance to Israel - or persecuted if they have already emigrated - if they believe that Yahshua is the Jewish Messiah.

I replied
Law of Return 5730-1970 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law+of+Return+5710-1950.htm)

4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."

And that was the extent of my involvement in this thread. :wave:

[Lulav]

:tutu::scratch: So confusing.
So, I am 100% Jewish - born and raised in Reform Judaism. I am now a born again Christian. I do not consider myself as belonging to a religion though. :P I gave up religion when I quit practicing the Jewish religion. Now I just live Christ. However, I assume that I would be considered apostate and not accepted into Israel. My children, however, would be allowed? Is that correct?


I have been pondering this and this is what I think separates us and causes much misunderstanding.

Judaism as a whole is about religion.

Whereas Messianic Judaism is about a faith, and it is the Abrahamic faith that we are called to have. Moshe had it, David had it, and so did the talmidim Yeshua called, but this is not the same as present day Judaism.

Our faith is in Yeshua and what Yah did for us as promised back in Abrahams day, Other Judaisms relies on their faith in three T's Themselves, Talmud, and lastly Torah.

[Talmidah]

Nevermind :sigh:

[Qalevra]

Nevermind :sigh:


Indeed... :|

[HaReb]

I was going to show you an image of the girl in question but I can't cut and paste it! I can't give you the web site as it is a private, secure one!

[ContraMundum]

So we know what they think of those who believe Jesus is Messiah, but what about the Lubavitcher's, those who are still waiting the resurrection of the Rebbe? And how is that not Avodah Zarah as well?

...because the Lubavitchers don't think that the Rebbe was the Son of God incarnate. They are right about that. :)

Avodah Zara is attributed to Christians by certain Rabbis because of our belief that Yeshua was the Son of God. The fact of the matter is that they don't understand our theology to begin with.

[christianmomof3]

Correct.



Not necessarily true. You can still apply for residency, but you would no longer be considered eligible for citizenship under the Law of Return.



That depends on a number of things, as this issue is less easy to handle. Were you a Christian when you gave birth to them? Were they ever considered halachically Jewish? Do they hold Christian beliefs now?
A good rule of thumb is that if one was ever a Jew and is guilty of Avodah Zarah, then they are not eligible under the Law of Return. The "loophole" is if one was never Jewish, but has Jewish ancestry (as little as 1/8), then they are considered eligible. For example, I knew many Russians while I lived in Israel that were Russian Orthodox, even if not observant. They were Israeli citizens however, under the Law of Return, because they had Jewish ancestry and were not apostates. Cases like that, however, are the impetus for calls to close the loophole.

I'm not sure if it does, but I hope it helps. :)
My children were not raised Jewish. But they have half Jewish ancestory from me. I was a born again Christian when my children were born and I did not raise them in the Jewish religion. So, it seems that I am not eligible for citizenship under the law of return, but my children are?

[LadyGarnetRose]

I have been pondering this and this is what I think separates us and causes much misunderstanding.

Judaism as a whole is about religion.

Whereas Messianic Judaism is about a faith, and it is the Abrahamic faith that we are called to have. Moshe had it, David had it, and so did the talmidim Yeshua called, but this is not the same as present day Judaism.

Our faith is in Yeshua and what Yah did for us as promised back in Abrahams day, Other Judaisms relies on their faith in three T's Themselves, Talmud, and lastly Torah.


Other?

Or do you mean actual Judaism and not Christianity?

Because Messianic is Christianity.

No mater how you dress it up with tefillin, tallis and dance the hora...


When you believe that Yeshua Ben Yosef is The Redeemer...you're a Christian.

[visionary]

Tell that to other christians who think we do not have enough christian in us, divided us up on the forum, and subdivided us from the "real christian" messianics.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Tell that to other christians who think we do not have enough christian in us, divided us up on the forum, and subdivided us from the "real christian" messianics.


That is their problem.

Not ours or yours.

Quote to them, "Judge not lest ye be judged." For usually they are failing.

It's like the spouse that accuses the innocent spouse of infidelity.

Usually, the one that accuses is no where near innocent.

[visionary]

Jew sees us as a dressed up in jewish costume christian... christians see us as jews claiming to know Yeshua yet not believing like a christian. Go figure ... we are stuck somewhere in the middle. By the grace of the Lord there will be reconciliation.... hopefully not by compromise of the truth in Yeshua.

[Lulav]

Other?

Or do you mean actual Judaism and not Christianity?

Because Messianic is Christianity.

No mater how you dress it up with tefillin, tallis and dance the hora...


When you believe that Yeshua Ben Yosef is The Redeemer...you're a Christian.I believe that real Messianic Judaism is a first century revival of the Judaism of that day. You can't really argue with the beliefs of thousand s of first century Jews can you? What passes for it today, at this point in the 'revival' is another story, but then what today is called Judaism that you are saying is the 'actual' Judaism still is nothing like the first century Judaism as well.

Really when you look at it, two Judaisms were formed within the first and second centuries and if we are going to really be honest here, the Messianic continuation came before the Yavneh one. One started before the destruction of the temple and the other as a result of it and much after.

One was formed because it now had something, and the other was formed because it was missing something.

Then there are the Christians who started in Antioch.......................they are trying to fit in here somewhere. :)

[Lulav]

Jew sees us as a dressed up in jewish costume christian... christians see us as jews claiming to know Yeshua yet not believing like a christian. Go figure ... we are stuck somewhere in the middle. By the grace of the Lord there will be reconciliation.... hopefully not by compromise of the truth in Yeshua.

some very wise Rabbinic words

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

We must be like those who passed through the water out of Egypt, there was a narrow path through the sea that they had to walk upon, turning to the left or right would bring certain death, by drowning. After this HaShem taught them to obey his commandments, not deviating from them to turn to the left or the right.

Deut. 5:23 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the L-RD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.

[Torah613]

Other?

Or do you mean actual Judaism and not Christianity?

Because Messianic is Christianity.

No mater how you dress it up with tefillin, tallis and dance the hora...


When you believe that Yeshua Ben Yosef is The Redeemer...you're a Christian.

at the risk of sounding terribly quaint, preach it LGR!

Yochanan

[Torah613]

My children were not raised Jewish. But they have half Jewish ancestory from me. I was a born again Christian when my children were born and I did not raise them in the Jewish religion. So, it seems that I am not eligible for citizenship under the law of return, but my children are?

That would not be correct according to my understanding as the lineage is through you and they are thus halachic Jews practicing a different religion. They no more qualify than a Jew who abandons our people and our G-d willfully.

Yochanan

[Lulav]

While that may apply to the 'law of return', it does not apply to the Creator who choose out of his creation who to make Jews, so in the end I should guess the point would be moot as to who really is a Jew. The main thing is this:

Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in G-d, and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.
For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from G-d.I think I choose to care who and what HaShem thinks I am, and do His will for me. For there are those of Jewish blood who have been chosen among others to receive the knowledge of who Messiah is, and have been selected to endure the persecution of the belief that follows. Yeshua called this taking up the cross and following him. When a Jew choses to follow Messiah Yeshua he then chooses to follow him over his tradition, his family, his community.

G-d comes first, and he knows the persecution he will go through for this choice. And it isn't only in Israel, it is around the world.

For Yeshua said:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'

He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me.
And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.It is all about choosing life and it always has been, Yeshua taught how to choose life, and I choose LIFE!

But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.I would never deny him for any man or any family member.

L'Chaim!

[Qalevra]

You can't really argue with the beliefs of thousand s of first century Jews can you?Yes, just as I may argue with the tens of thousands of Jews who recognized Simon bar Kochba as messiah. However, they later recanted when their messiah failed and was killed. Thousands of Jews today hold the Rebbe to be messiah, but I am not lining up to join them. Besides, those Jews who believed Jesus was the messiah were a minority, any way you slice it. He would not have been killed otherwise.

I believe that real Messianic Judaism is a first century revival of the Judaism of that day.From what I have seen, MJ picks and chooses pieces of Oral Tradition and discards others, while calling the whole thing a falsehood. Ask yourself about MJ faith systems that reject Oral Torah, yet lay tefillin, wear tallisim, use a Hebrew calendar, and use Rabbinic guidelines for Kashrut, among other things. If this is not accurate, please enlighten me.

[visionary]

Back to OP..

There is something wrong when they are so concerned with a 17 year old contestant... what are they afraid of... that she would win?

[christianmomof3]

Also back to the OP - we should all pray for that girl and her family. :prayer:

[ShirChadash]

Maybe they were concerned about giving her a platform from which to witness for her faith, maybe they were worried about giving her legitimacy and a voice... I think this forum worries in the same ways about its Jewish (non-xtian) members. There's a lot of talk here about what sort of threat messianicism is to Judaism but so many in this forum are very concerned in the same ways about Jews here... it seems to me that letting the Jews on this section answer plainly about Judaism has been seen as very threatening to messianicism and xtianity. It's easy to casually dismiss the worries about a xtian competing in a Bible contest... but I can't help seeing some parallel. It makes me wonder who is really threatening to whom.

[Torah613]

While that may apply to the 'law of return', it does not apply to the Creator who choose out of his creation who to make Jews, so in the end I should guess the point would be moot as to who really is a Jew. The main thing is this:

I think I choose to care who and what HaShem thinks I am, and do His will for me. For there are those of Jewish blood who have been chosen among others to receive the knowledge of who Messiah is, and have been selected to endure the persecution of the belief that follows. Yeshua called this taking up the cross and following him. When a Jew choses to follow Messiah Yeshua he then chooses to follow him over his tradition, his family, his community.

G-d comes first, and he knows the persecution he will go through for this choice. And it isn't only in Israel, it is around the world.

For Yeshua said:

It is all about choosing life and it always has been, Yeshua taught how to choose life, and I choose LIFE!

I would never deny him for any man or any family member.

L'Chaim!

Well that's nice, but as for me and my house we shall worship HaShem.

Yochanan

[visionary]

Maybe they were concerned about giving her a platform from which to witness for her faith, maybe they were worried about giving her legitimacy and a voice... I think this forum worries in the same ways about its Jewish (non-xtian) members. There's a lot of talk here about what sort of threat messianicism is to Judaism but so many in this forum are very concerned in the same ways about Jews here... it seems to me that letting the Jews on this section answer plainly about Judaism has been seen as very threatening to messianicism and xtianity. It's easy to casually dismiss the worries about a xtian competing in a Bible contest... but I can't help seeing some parallel. It makes me wonder who is really threatening to whom.Personnally, I do not find any of you threatening to my faith. I find what you have to say fascinating because it is coming from a traditional understanding totally different from the way I have been brought up to understand scripture. What I have found by listening and reading the way that you understand things gives the scriptures a different angle which I appreciate. Some I have thrown away as not godly inspired, just as I have with some christian traditions, and it is true I am picking and choosing my faith... with lots of prayer to the Lord to learn me through it all. I am not afraid. I fear not, for God is with me.

[Lulav]

You can't really argue with the beliefs of thousands of first century Jews can you?Yes, just as I may argue with the tens of thousands of Jews who recognized Simon bar Kochba as messiah. However, they later recanted when their messiah failed and was killed. Thousands of Jews today hold the Rebbe to be messiah, but I am not lining up to join them. Besides, those Jews who believed Jesus was the messiah were a minority, any way you slice it. He would not have been killed otherwise.



Ok, let's discuss. :) I may be a black sheep or a lost sheep to you, but we're still family, no? :)

First, Yshua has never been recanted of, by any measure, this is only one thing that separates him from all the other false Messiahs. There are many other things that separate him, but let that suffice for now, lets go to this.

So what you're putting on the table is that there was only a minority that followed him, and that is why he was killed? Somehow that doesn't make logical sense to me. If they were such a minority, why bother? Let's ask the Sanhedrin of the time what they thought? ( I am stuck using this version right now)

1After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. 2But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, 3Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. 4No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." 5For even his own brothers did not believe in him.10However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret. 11Now at the Feast the Jews were watching for him and asking, "Where is that man?" 12Among the crowds there was widespread whispering about him. Some said, "He is a good man."
Others replied, "No, he deceives the people." 13But no one would say anything publicly about him for fear of the Jews.
Jesus Teaches at the Feast

14Not until halfway through the Feast did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. 15The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?" 16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?"
20"You are demon-possessed," the crowd answered. "Who is trying to kill you?"
21Jesus said to them, "I did one miracle, and you are all astonished. 22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. 23 Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24 Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."
Is Jesus the Christ?

25At that point some of the people of Jerusalem began to ask, "Isn't this the man they are trying to kill? 26Here he is, speaking publicly, and they are not saying a word to him. Have the authorities really concluded that he is the Christ? 27But we know where this man is from; when the Christ comes, no one will know where he is from." 28Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, "Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him, 29but I know him because I am from him and he sent me."
30At this they tried to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his time had not yet come. 31Still, many in the crowd put their faith in him. They said, "When the Christ comes, will he do more miraculous signs than this man?"
32The Pharisees heard the crowd whispering such things about him. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees sent temple guards to arrest him.
33Jesus said, "I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. 34You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come."
35The Jews said to one another, "Where does this man intend to go that we cannot find him? Will he go where our people live scattered among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks? 36What did he mean when he said, 'You will look for me, but you will not find me,' and 'Where I am, you cannot come'?"
37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
40On hearing his words, some of the people said, "Surely this man is the Prophet."
41Others said, "He is the Christ."
Still others asked, "How can the Christ come from Galilee? 42Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David's family and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?" 43Thus the people were divided because of Jesus. 44Some wanted to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him.
Unbelief of the Jewish Leaders

45Finally the temple guards went back to the chief priests and Pharisees, who asked them, "Why didn't you bring him in?" 46"No one ever spoke the way this man does," the guards declared.
47"You mean he has deceived you also?" the Pharisees retorted. 48"Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? 49No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law—there is a curse on them."
50Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was one of their own number, asked, 51"Does our law condemn anyone without first hearing him to find out what he is doing?"
52They replied, "Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee."
1Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha...............
7Then he said to his disciples, "Let us go back to Judea."17On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home. 21"Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."
23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
28And after she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. "The Teacher is here," she said, "and is asking for you." 29When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.
32When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died."
33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34"Where have you laid him?" he asked.
"Come and see, Lord," they replied.
35Jesus wept.
36Then the Jews said, "See how he loved him!"
37But some of them said, "Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?"
Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead

38Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39"Take away the stone," he said.
"But, Lord," said Martha, the sister of the dead man, "by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days." 40Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?"
41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."
43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."
The Plot to Kill Jesus

45Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him. 46But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. "What are we accomplishing?" they asked. "Here is this man performing many miraculous signs. 48If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."
49Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, "You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish."
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53 So from that day on they plotted to take his life.

55 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, many went up from the country to Jerusalem for their ceremonial cleansing before the Passover. 56They kept looking for Jesus, and as they stood in the temple area they asked one another, "What do you think? Isn't he coming to the Feast at all?" 57But the chief priests and Pharisees had given orders that if anyone found out where Jesus was, he should report it so that they might arrest him.12

1 Six days before the Passover, Jesus arrived at Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2 Here a dinner was given in Jesus' honor. ..........................9 Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, 11 for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him.
12 The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. 13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting,
"Hosanna!"
"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"
"Blessed is the King of Israel!" 14 Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15 "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion;
see, your king is coming,
seated on a donkey's colt."

17 Now the crowd that was with him when he called Lazarus from the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to spread the word. 18 Many people, because they had heard that he had given this miraculous sign, went out to meet him. 19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"
27" Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!" Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
30 Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.





34 The crowd spoke up, "We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this 'Son of Man'?"
They misunderstood who Messiah would be, even back then.

[ChavaK]

Regarding the OP.....
have you guys heard of such a thing as:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:_uWAr-YRIby45M:http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff235/MTBlood/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

LOL....the contest is done, over with, kaput....she didn't
win, place (or show :) ) so I guess there really wasn't
anything to fear....or to threaten the contest....

[visionary]

Regarding the OP.....
have you guys heard of such a thing as:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:_uWAr-YRIby45M:http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff235/MTBlood/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

LOL....the contest is done, over with, kaput....she didn't
win, place (or show :) ) so I guess there really wasn't
anything to fear....or to threaten the contest....What... and spoil a good argument.. sheeeeesh you are no fun.:P

[ChavaK]

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/344071/2/istockphoto_344071_mean_old_lady.jpg


you are no fun at all :) I've been told that before..... :)

[visionary]

I've been told that before.....Spoiled sport.:sorry:

[Lulav]

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/344071/2/istockphoto_344071_mean_old_lady.jpg


I've been told that before..... :) HEY! I didn't grant you permission to post my picture! the neirve! :P

[Lulav]

Regarding the OP.....
have you guys heard of such a thing as:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:_uWAr-YRIby45M:http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff235/MTBlood/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

LOL....the contest is done, over with, kaput....she didn't
win, place (or show :) ) so I guess there really wasn't
anything to fear....or to threaten the contest....

do you have a link to an article, I have been trying to find something but can't. Ahhhhhhhh, I'm so tired.

[Talmidah]

do you have a link to an article, I have been trying to find something but can't. Ahhhhhhhh, I'm so tired.


Fifteen-year-old Tzurit Bernson of Naharia won the International Bible Contest for Jewish Youth on Thursday, narrowly beating out Elad Finish of Be’er Sheva, who came in second. As Prime Minister Ehud Olmert handed Bernson her prize, the teen slipped him a petition calling for the release of Jonathon Pollard.


In third place was Dov Mordechai Nadel of the United States. Rachel Asas of Mexico came in fourth.


The contest aroused controversy this year due to the participation of 17-year-old Bat-El Levy, who was raised in the Christian faith by her Jewish-born parents. Levy joined the competition after winning the Bible quiz for students in secular public schools in the Jerusalem area. She failed to pass the early rounds of Thursday’s competition.



Link (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/146232)

[Torah613]

who is Jonathan Pollars? am I having a blonde moment?

Yochanan

[Talmidah]

who is Jonathan Pollars? am I having a blonde moment?

Yochanan

Putting Fellow Man First: Jonathan Pollard (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/4656)

Justice for Jonathan Pollard (http://www.jonathanpollard.org/)

A Phone Call a Day for Pollard (http://christianforums.com/A%20Phone%20Call%20a%20Day%20for%20Pollard)

[Torah613]

oy. I had not heard that before. How inspiring, and sad.

Yochanan

[Qalevra]

Ok, let's discuss. :) I may be a black sheep or a lost sheep to you, but we're still family, no? :)

If you are halachically Jewish, yes, and the only thing I ask is for you to truly seek the truth that is found in the Tanakh. If you are truly seeking the truth, you will find it.

First, I'm going to make clear my stance on the New Testament. I do not believe it is a reliable source of information, and since you are exclusively using the New Testament for your proof texts, we're going to have a disconnect. However, I do realize that it is the only account about his life from antiquity that is longer than a few words, which necessitates its use in this discussion.

First, Yshua has never been recanted of, by any measure, this is only one thing that separates him from all the other false Messiahs.

Where were those crowds that, according to the New Testament, welcomed him with palms as he entered Jerusalem? Why did they not do anything about his predicament? Weren't there a lot of Jews clamoring for his death? Isn't this the basis for a lot of anti-Semitism throughout history? Is it possible that they realized he was not the messiah and turned on him?

There are many other things that separate him, but let that suffice for now, lets go to this.

I have a feeling that topic is for another place and time.

So what you're putting on the table is that there was only a minority that followed him, and that is why he was killed? Somehow that doesn't make logical sense to me. If they were such a minority, why bother?

Why bother dealing with Osama bin Laden and his brand of terrorists, a very tiny minority of Islam? I am certainly not equating Jesus with Osama, but I am making the point that numbers can belie the true threat, which in this case, would be leading Jews to idolatry.

Let's ask the Sanhedrin of the time what they thought? ( I am stuck using this version right now)

I understand that I am not permitted to counter arguments in support of Christianity, so I will respect the forum rules and abstain. I was also unable to follow from where you were quoting, since all that was provided were verses, and not chapters and books. I will, however, ask for your interpretation of these NT passages that I scoured:

Matthew 11:20
Luke 4:28-30, 23:13-14
John 12:37,15:18-19,18:35

[ChavaK]

Putting Fellow Man First: Jonathan Pollard (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/4656)

Justice for Jonathan Pollard (http://www.jonathanpollard.org/)

A Phone Call a Day for Pollard (http://christianforums.com/A%20Phone%20Call%20a%20Day%20for%20Pollard)

Yasher koach to her for slipping Ohlmert the petition....when
we heard Bibi speak in Israel in March he was working on
getting Pollard free.

So we may not hear much about it, but the work to free
him goes on behind the scenes..

[Lulav]

I understand that I am not permitted to counter arguments in support of Christianity, so I will respect the forum rules and abstain. I was also unable to follow from where you were quoting, since all that was provided were verses, and not chapters and books. I will, however, ask for your interpretation of these NT passages that I scoured:

Matthew 11:20
Luke 4:28-30, 23:13-14
John 12:37,15:18-19,18:35 I will answer your other points tomorrow, long day, I just wanted to say I was sorry about not posting the book, I was using some other online bible program I am not used to as my accustomed site was down for some reason.

Excepts from John Chapters 7, 11 and 12

[ChavaK]

HEY! I didn't grant you permission to post my picture! the neirve! :P

No, this one is you.....the resemblance is striking, so the mistake is understandable :)


http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/343983/2/istockphoto_343983_cranky_old_lady.jpg

[Lulav]

Looks just like my mother. :)