Vision, tagline, SoF, and revised promotion rule (last post has link to Wiki)

[mnphysicist]

Members and staff,

Lee has set out his vision for CF. The new site motto will be: "Where Two or Three are Gathered." The vision for CF will be heavily focused on inreach, uplifting and encouraging Christians in faith, with slight emphasis on outreach.

Some of the keywords Lee used to describe his vision for CF:

- friendly
- Christian love
- kindness
- peace
- encouragement
- hope
- support
- PRAYER


In addition, the following will replace the Nicene Creed as Christian Forums' Statement of Faith. This was drawn up as a collaborative effort between senior staff, with the intent of having a clear, concise, and easy to understand statement of faith:

CF statement of faith: This is the basis of which our non-promotion rule is based upon, and is the baseline for forum-specific guidelines. An individual forum can use the Nicene Creed without asterisks, a confession of faith, or other statements, provided such is an expansion of the CF statement of faith. However, forum-specific guidelines must not conflict with the CF Statement of Faith.

CF supports the following as a statement of faith

We worship one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Isaiah 44:6-8; Exodus 3:15). God is three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who share one essence--the Trinity (John 6:27; John 1:1, 14; Romans 8:9; Hebrews 1:2-3).

Our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, the incarnate second person of the Holy Trinity, fully God and fully man (John 1:1, 14), was conceived in time by the power of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35) and existed before all time begotten of God the Father (John 1: 2; John 1: 18). He was crucified for our sins, died, was buried, resurrected on the third day (1 Corinthians 15: 3-4) and is seated at the right hand of the Father (Mark 16: 19). Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah (John 1:49; Matthew 16:16). His coming was foretold by the prophets of the Old Testament (Acts 3:18-23). He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead (Acts 10: 42) and His Kingdom will have no end (2 Peter 1: 11).

With the new statement of faith, the promotion rule will be changed to the following:

You will not promote any faith, belief, or religion other than Christianity. For the purpose of these rules, Christianity is defined by Christian Forums' Statement of Faith.

[Angeldove97]

Woot! ^_^ Thanks for posting this Ron!

[Million Pieces]

MOST excellent!! Thanks so much Ron, and the Seniors, for making this so clear.

[Lel]

In practice, how will this affect the role of non-Christians on CF? Are there any specifics regarding how this will affect such groups? Thanks!

[pete56]

In practice, how will this affect the role of non-Christians on CF? Are there any specifics regarding how this will affect such groups? Thanks!
Good question, I would be very interested in the answer to this, particularly as regards non professing Christians as Mods.

[Nomenclature]

The statement of faith is beautifully written. I cannot see any reason for any Christian denomination or individual to have a problem with it.

[Lisa0315]

The statement of faith is beautifully written. I cannot see any reason for any Christian denomination or individual to have a problem with it.

I agree with the statement. However, there will be plenty who do not.

Lisa

[Million Pieces]

Oh yeah, that's inevitable. Someone will always find something to argue about. But that's what we are. Unapologetic.

We can not afford to candy-coat or water down or back down from our statement. Ever. Is it worth defending? Then let's do it.

[MN John]

Congratulations. Good job. I could wish for more, but I understand the need for it to be concise and simple. Again ... good job!

[Iosias]

Why was there need for a change?

[SirTimothy]

We have a creed which only really mentions Jesus... can someone explain to me just why it misses out the Fatherhood and Creatorship of God the Father, the Creatorship of God the Son and anything to do with the working of the Holy Spirit? I understand it needs to be agreeable to all, but I'm seriously concerned that it is not balancedly trinitarian.

Tim

[Polycarp1]

The statement of faith is beautifully written. I cannot see any reason for any Christian denomination or individual to have a problem with it.

I do (see such reasons, that is). It is a statement of faith with every element of which I agree -- and which I can see nothing in with which any mainstream Christian (range Orthodox to Baptist conventions and everything between) could not agree.

But it is not a creed adopted by the Bishops of the entire Church in conclave and taught by them. It is not the creed established by any denomination. There are those who proclaim "no creed but Christ" and "where the Bible speaks, we speak; where it is silent, we are silent" to whom a creed is anathema.

I think it's a brilliant effort to reduce the essentials of Christianity to a set of statements all can agree with. But I do see the same issues as have arisen in the past -- and more, because it doesn't have the historical cachet and unquestionable authority of the Nicene Creed.

I don't want to throw cold water on what was obviously a remarkable piece of work. I just want to raise a note of caution that there might be issues resulting from it, and why.

[JasonV]

CF statement of faith = lowest common denominator?

[karen freeinchristman]

I think it's fine. My goodness, we are using this as a tool for the site - it isn't supposed be the 'fullness of the faith'. Even the Nicene creed doesn't cover everything to do with the faith (for example it says nothing of what Jesus did during his earthly ministry - it is as if he was born and then died, with nothing in between).

[TomUK]

I think it's fine. My goodness, we are using this as a tool for the site - it isn't supposed be the 'fullness of the faith'. Even the Nicene creed doesn't cover everything to do with the faith (for example it says nothing of what Jesus did during his earthly ministry - it is as if he was born and then died, with nothing in between).

I don't think there's anyone who would argue that the nicene is supposed to be the fullness of the faith - historically or in the modern Church that was never its purpose. However what it does do is identify a few key aspects of doctrine, it covers the bases as it were.

This statement of faith however is significantly lacking. I don't have a huge problem what's been written already - there are quite a few bits where it'd be easy to picky, but as you say ultimately it's for a website, not a national Church. However as Polycarp pointed out, it's the things which are missing that are the biggest form of concern. As it stands at the moment i'd almost go as far as say it points towards some backwards, bizzaro form of Arianism.

As a statement of faith for anything it is woefully lacking.

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

"existed before all time begotten of God the Father"

Please use another word besides existed, it is problematic. The word is not used anywhere in the John Chapter 1, which it is claimed to be cited from.

Existence is a word given to things that are created. Christ is begotten of the Father, who does not 'exist', but makes things exist.

[drstevej]

"existed before all time begotten of God the Father"

Please use another word besides existed, it is problematic. The word is not used anywhere in the John Chapter 1, which it is claimed to be cited from.

Existence is a word given to things that are created. Christ is begotten of the Father, who does not 'exist', but makes things exist.

I did not see a request for suggested edits. This is not a WIKI.

[mnphysicist]

We chose the Nicene Creed when we wrote the promotion rule due to past CF history, but the problems associated with it were significant.

Many felt uncomfortable with the use of asterisks.
Many felt uncomfortable that we didnt have enough asterisks.
Many felt that the promotion document was unclear.
We kept having to rewrite rules to prevent overzealous staff from warning and infracting members over what many considered cross denominational issues.... and it kept getting worse and worse as time went on.

Many of the arguments surrounding the Nicene Creed seemed to be coming from a difference in points of view, ie the sola scriptura pov, vs the pov that the Nicene Creed is being compromised such that its no longer aligned with what the church fathers intended. Those are closely held beliefs, with hundreds of years of difference of opinion behind them. Short of shafting one group to the exception of another, there is no way to resolve it within an ecumenical group. Thus, we needed a solution, and it needed to be simple.

It should be noted, fsg's can use the full Nicene Creed without asterisks if they should want, or any other church document, provided it doesn't conflict with the OP.

[MariaRegina]

Which version is considered to be the "full" Nicene Creed without the asterisks?

a. The Roman Catholic Version with the later filioque addition. (Note that the Eastern Catholic Churches have recently removed the filioque "and the Son." Remember that this unscriptural addition to the Nicene Creed occurred in Spain and that this was a unilateral move. )

b. The more ancient version which did not have the filioque addition and which was approved by the Third Ecumenical Council and is currently used by the Orthodox Church.



Another question?

Can only those forums who use the Nicene Creed as their statement of faith teach the belief in angels?
Someone left out the fact that God created everything visible and invisible and that would include the angels.

Why was this statement from the Nicene Creed left out of the CF statement of faith?

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

[CaDan]

Which version is considered to be the "full" Nicene Creed without the asterisks?

a. The Roman Catholic Version with the later filioque addition. (Note that the Eastern Catholic Churches have recently removed the filioque "and the Son." Remember that this unscriptural addition to the Nicene Creed occurred in Spain and that this was a unilateral move. )

b. The more ancient version which did not have the filioque addition and which was approved by the Third Ecumenical Council and is currently used by the Orthodox Church.

For the purposes of FSGs, either one. Just like the Seventh Day Adventists can use the 28 Fundamental Beliefs, the Anglicans can use the 39 Articles of Religion, and the Lutherans can use the Augsburg Confession.

[Crazy Liz]

"existed before all time begotten of God the Father"

Please use another word besides existed, it is problematic. The word is not used anywhere in the John Chapter 1, which it is claimed to be cited from.

Existence is a word given to things that are created. Christ is begotten of the Father, who does not 'exist', but makes things exist.
I agree with you about the problems with the word "exist." (It's nice to see someone else has read Wittgenstein. ;) ) However, I'm willing to pretend the CF creed was translated from some ancient language, and had to make a less-than-perfect translational choice, so that the meaning of the word "exist" is still open for discussion, and the mods in GA and GT are not going to use this new creed to censor posts pointing out the difficulties inherent in the word.

Creeds have the purpose of excluding and dividing, which makes me uncomfortable, but excluding and dividing through the use of creeds is something Christians have been doing since the time of Constantine, so it's hard to complain that it is a new innovation. This one appears to be an effort to reduce the number of exclusions and divisions, so it is a positive step for those not willing to go so far as the "no creed but Christ" folks.

[drstevej]

Creeds have the purpose of excluding and dividing,And rightly so.

"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. Jn 4:23Jesus made divisions,


"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers." Jn 4:24Truth matters.

CLIPPY

[Criada]

I think this is good... short, clear and covers the essentials.
Thank you to those involved in producing it!

[Angel4Truth]

Members and staff,

Lee has set out his vision for CF. The new site motto will be: "Where Two or Three are Gathered." The vision for CF will be heavily focused on inreach, uplifting and encouraging Christians in faith, with slight emphasis on outreach.

Some of the keywords Lee used to describe his vision for CF:

- friendly
- Christian love
- kindness
- peace
- encouragement
- hope
- support
- PRAYER


In addition, the following will replace the Nicene Creed as Christian Forums' Statement of Faith. This was drawn up as a collaborative effort between senior staff, with the intent of having a clear, concise, and easy to understand statement of faith:

CF statement of faith: This is the basis of which our non-promotion rule is based upon, and is the baseline for forum-specific guidelines. An individual forum can use the Nicene Creed without asterisks, a confession of faith, or other statements, provided such is an expansion of the CF statement of faith. However, forum-specific guidelines must not conflict with the CF Statement of Faith.

CF supports the following as a statement of faith

We worship one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Isaiah 44:6-8; Exodus 3:15). God is three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who share one essence--the Trinity (John 6:27; John 1:1, 14; Romans 8:9; Hebrews 1:2-3).

Our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, the incarnate second person of the Holy Trinity, fully God and fully man (John 1:1, 14), was conceived in time by the power of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35) and existed before all time begotten of God the Father (John 1: 2; John 1: 18). He was crucified for our sins, died, was buried, resurrected on the third day (1 Corinthians 15: 3-4) and is seated at the right hand of the Father (Mark 16: 19). Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah (John 1:49; Matthew 16:16). His coming was foretold by the prophets of the Old Testament (Acts 3:18-23). He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead (Acts 10: 42) and His Kingdom will have no end (2 Peter 1: 11).

With the new statement of faith, the promotion rule will be changed to the following:

You will not promote any faith, belief, or religion other than Christianity. For the purpose of these rules, Christianity is defined by Christian Forums' Statement of Faith.

I think this is wonderful but will it atually be enforced? The promotion issue isnt being enforced now : God is Imaginary & You Can Now Prove it To Yourself (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html) ( http://www3.christianforums.com/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html) 2 (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html&page=2) 3 (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html&page=3) 4 (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html&page=4) 5 (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html&page=5) ... Last Page (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html&page=50) )

Take a look at how long thats been sitting there

[pete56]

OK, so now we have guidelines and a statement of faith and rules to say what is promoting other faiths.

We also have a statement saying we will focus on inreach and unity and Christian fellowship.

All of this is good ( some might say very good), but I still do not see any where what is to be done about the staff members that are not professing Christians (if there are any still here that is). Neither has any thing been said about the qualifying faith requirements for any new members of staff that I am aware of.

Lets not all get lost in the details of different creeds and lose sight of the fact that at least some of the staff do not profess even the most basic of Christian beliefs, so ho exactly can e expect them to administer this new set of rules properly?

Pete

[Angel4Truth]

And many arent enforcing the existing guidelines and are removing posts without notification also that speak out against promotion of ideals other than christian ideals.

[Crazy Liz]

I think this is wonderful but will it atually be enforced? The promotion issue isnt being enforced now : God is Imaginary & You Can Now Prove it To Yourself (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html) ( http://www3.christianforums.com/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html) 2 (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html&page=2) 3 (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html&page=3) 4 (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html&page=4) 5 (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html&page=5) ... Last Page (http://christianforums.com/t7145961-god-is-imaginary-you-can-now-prove-it-to-yourself.html&page=50) )

Take a look at how long thats been sitting there
If the rule is interpreted this way, the whole General Apologetics forum will have to go because a Christian can't intelligently discuss apologetics issues with a non-Christian where non-Christians are not able to state their objections from their own POV.

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I did not see a request for suggested edits. This is not a WIKI.

Did you see a request in my post for your commentary? No.

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I agree with you about the problems with the word "exist." (It's nice to see someone else has read Wittgenstein. ;) ) However, I'm willing to pretend the CF creed was translated from some ancient language, and had to make a less-than-perfect translational choice, so that the meaning of the word "exist" is still open for discussion, and the mods in GA and GT are not going to use this new creed to censor posts pointing out the difficulties inherent in the word.

The problem I have is that if anyone wants to play amateur theologian to the point of writing out a Statement of Faith, they at least ought to have the knowledge sufficient to realize the problem with using "exist" in connection with God.

This is an issue if the SoF is to be enforced by people (staff) who aren't theologians or philosophers (and i don't expect them to be). Especially so, as no debating is to occur in reports anyways. I really don't want my icon or anyone elses' removed or be denied access to forums because a 16 year old doesn't understand metaphysics.

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

If anyone is willing to start up a serious discussion of whether the term "to exist" applies to God in Theologyland, I will exert all my influence to keep it open.

Whether it applies or not isn't so much what I'm after. I'd just like the issue to be open for theological discussion.

The SoF makes denying that particular attribute of God a heresy.

[Criada]

Do we have a timestamp issue again, or was SAs last post prophetic?
:confused?

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Houston- we have a problem.

[Angeldove97]

Staff knows that we're having timestamp issues again--- I just bugged Ron about it. :)

[CaDan]

If anyone is willing to start up a serious discussion of whether the term "to exist" applies to God in Theologyland, I will exert all my influence to keep it open.

[Ramona]

Serious question: what exactly is meant by "Christian love" in the OP?

[TomUK]

I've made a few alterations which has simplified and also made it Trinitarian. It follows the structure of the original and where possible i've used language of the original. There's still a mountain of faults here and it's just something i did in five minutes but to my mind closer reflects what a very basic statement of faith needs to be.





We believe in one God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; three divine persons who share one essence--the Trinity.

The Father, the Almighty, is author and sustainer of all creation. The Son, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, God incarnate, fully God and fully man, conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. He was crucified for our sins, died, was buried, resurrected on the third day and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His Kingdom will have no end. The Holy Spirit is the Lord and giver of life.

[Criada]

OK, so now we have guidelines and a statement of faith and rules to say what is promoting other faiths.

We also have a statement saying we will focus on inreach and unity and Christian fellowship.

All of this is good ( some might say very good), but I still do not see any where what is to be done about the staff members that are not professing Christians (if there are any still here that is). Neither has any thing been said about the qualifying faith requirements for any new members of staff that I am aware of.

Lets not all get lost in the details of different creeds and lose sight of the fact that at least some of the staff do not profess even the most basic of Christian beliefs, so ho exactly can e expect them to administer this new set of rules properly?

Pete
The non-Christian staff we have at the moment are extremely competent, and perfectly capable of moderating in accordance with the SoF and the rules. :)
I have never seen any of them promoting any other faith on this site, so I am not quite sure what your question here is?

[Glass*Soul]

Serious question... what, exactly, is meant by "Christian love" in the OP?

A good quesiton HoD (and well worth repeating, I think, five times ^_^ ).

It makes sense, from a purely natural standpoint, for one to feel an obligation toward one's family and close-knit tribe or community. To do so helps preserve these institutions that do such a fine job of insuring our ability to survive and reproduce. Yet the message of Christ is that our neighbors are not only those who are close by and with whom we have a stake. It is those whose existence affords us no advantage whatsoever. Our natural selves would tell us that this is a waste of scarce resources and unwise. What's more, (and this is a truly dangerous idea) Christ taught us to love our enemies and to pray for those who spitefully use us.

It is an amazingly good apologetic, from the viewpoint of this skeptic.

So, Christian love is expressed when we engage those who do not belong to our families or closeknit group with generosity and respect, and most especially when we similarly engage those whom we regard as our enemies and those who make spiteful use of us.


Edit: May I add that I have no idea if this is what is meant by the OP, nor do I entertain any illusions that my opinion on the matter is of any consequence to this board.

[snoochface]

Look, if they didn't want discussion of the announcement, they should have closed the thread as soon as it was posted.

The fact that it is an open thread invites discussion. What is the point of arguing over whether or not there should be discussion? If they don't want our input (which, really, they don't, but they seem to want to give us the illusion of wanting our input) they can close the thread. Sooper mod powerz and all that.

[Tonks]

If anyone is willing to start up a serious discussion of whether the term "to exist" applies to God in Theologyland, I will exert all my influence to keep it open.

That term was my insertion...though I worded it incorrectly. I was concerned with Christ's eternal pre-existence.

The point was lost in the discussion due to the fact that there was a greater debate over 1) whether it was proper to affirm the Virgin Birth and 2) whether the Dread Judgment was a necessary part of any expression of faith. It, frankly, was an after throught and inserted quickly as the discussion also revolved around whether calling Christ "God" would be offensive to some "Christians" - at which point I damned near lost my mind...

The phrase should be changed...but it was ignored in the thrash over other points which occupied much of the thread.

[Lel]

A good quesiton HoD (and well worth repeating, I think, five times ^_^ ).

It makes sense, from a purely natural standpoint, for one to feel an obligation toward one's family and close-knit tribe or community. To do so helps preserve these institutions that do such a fine job of insuring our ability to survive and reproduce. Yet the message of Christ is that our neighbors are not only those who are close by and with whom we have a stake. It is those whose existence affords us no advantage whatsoever. Our natural selves would tell us that this is a waste of scarce resources and unwise. What's more, (and this is a truly dangerous idea) Christ taught us to love our enemies and to pray for those who spitefully use us.

It is an amazingly good apologetic, from the viewpoint of this skeptic.

So, Christian love is expressed when we engage those who do not belong to our families or closeknit group with generosity and respect, and most especially when we similarly engage those whom we regard as our enemies and those who make spiteful use of us.


Edit: May I add that I have no idea if this is what is meant by the OP, nor do I entertain any illusions that my opinion on the matter is of any consequence to this board.

It's a wise point and one that is extremely important to heed even though the focus may change.

If the words have consequence to one person, that is enough. And I'm taking them to heart. So thank you.

[drstevej]

It's a wise point and one that is extremely important to heed even though the focus may change.

If the words have consequence to one person, that is enough. And I'm taking them to heart. So thank you.

20 STARS
gotcha

[Glass*Soul]

It's a wise point and one that is extremely important to heed even though the focus may change.

If the words have consequence to one person, that is enough. And I'm taking them to heart. So thank you.

Thank you! (((Lel)))

My edit was meant to forestall getting involved in a meta-discussion that was forming, but it actually managed to expose some bitterness on my part. :sorry: It wouldn't hurt me to be a little less bitter in light of your comment.

[GerTzedek]

Let me say right off the bat that this is YOUR forum, a CHRISTIAN forum, and you have the right to set the definition of "Christianity" as well as the boundaries for those who post here.

I simply have concerns about the phrasing, "You will not promote any faith, belief, or religion other than Christianity." Without a description of what "promote" means, this can be used to attack those who really are not "promoting" another religion, but simply answering questions and providing information. How will this rule specifically apply to non-Christians monotheists such as Jews and Muslims? How about other non-Christians such as Atheists, Pagans, Buddhists?

AND... how is this going to work with those denominations which certainly claim to be Christian, and are certainly not Nicene? Such as your one-ness Pentecostals, or Messianics?

Well, at least you avoided a holy war by not including a paragaph regarding the Holy Spirit -- you got to completely skirt the filioque issue!

[CaDan]

The problem of the definition of "to promote" has hung around for at least three years without a rule-based resolution. At this point, I don't think there is a way we can write a rule to adequately express what we are doing. I know I have certainly tried and failed.

I think we will end up having to take a casustic approach to the problem and go case-by-case. I know that is not the optimal solution, but it is probably the only one.

[Crazy Liz]

I've made a few alterations which has simplified and also made it Trinitarian. It follows the structure of the original and where possible i've used language of the original. There's still a mountain of faults here and it's just something i did in five minutes but to my mind closer reflects what a very basic statement of faith needs to be.





We believe in one God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; three divine persons who share one essence--the Trinity.

The Father, the Almighty, is author and sustainer of all creation. The Son, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, God incarnate, fully God and fully man, conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. He was crucified for our sins, died, was buried, resurrected on the third day and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His Kingdom will have no end. The Holy Spirit is the Lord and giver of life.
That sounds like a pretty good condensation.

[français]

I do not know why there is a need for this..

I just hope it does not become like how CF was lonnng ago.. Where the moderators defined what religion you were, and non Christians had like no powers. I hope that non Christians will still be able to be mods, post in all sections, etc.

I do not support the revisions, but whatever! It is not my forum, so oh well.

[Crazy Liz]

What does "inreach" mean?

It sounds to me like cult terminology.

[Tonks]

What does "inreach" mean?

It sounds to me like cult terminology.

Please...give me a break. The intent is to have the majority of dicussions between and amongst Christians. That is what is meant by "inreach." The intent, as I understand it, is to build the Body from within. Conversion of unbelievers and apostates is not the focus.

Non-Christian opinion and commentary is secondary.

[Ringo84]

I see that you're new and have not been around alot. The message of Christ is not to have Christians be attacked at every given turn by non-Christians for their beliefs in the name of some garbage pluralistic ideal.

CF is not a Church...not is it even specifically a ministry. It is a place, ultimately, for Christians to discuss Christian things. CF has strayed from that purpose over the last 8 months and I'm glad to see that it is swinging - somewhat - back in the direction of allowing Christians to be Christians without harassment.

Christ doesn't value a false Gospel. 'Tis in the Bible.
The message of Christ is not to have Christians be attacked at every given turn by non-Christians for their beliefs in the name of some garbage pluralistic ideal.

If we Christians can't take occasionally having our beliefs questioned and shaken up by curious people, perhaps we're too weak.

"Garbage" is it? I suppose, then, that it was "garbage" that Jesus associated Himself with people in His day that believers of His day would have shunned as "unclean" or "sinful"?

CF is not a Church...not is it even specifically a ministry. It is a place, ultimately, for Christians to discuss Christian things.

I think you're trying to pigeonhole too much. Who cares what it's called? If Christians are going to be like Jesus, we should be moving beyond the "Christians only club" concept and more towards an "all are welcome" concept.

CF has strayed from that purpose over the last 8 months and I'm glad to see that it is swinging - somewhat - back in the direction of allowing Christians to be Christians without harassment.

What harassment? There are people here who have valid questions about faith issues. Shall we turn them away and say, "You won't tow our theological line, so your questioning isn't valid. In fact, it's harassment"?
Ringo

[CaDan]

How do you run a "Christian" message board while avoiding two extremes:

1. The horrifying back-slapping self-righteousness of some places which shall not be named; and

2. Losing the "Christian" character altogether.

We are trying to navigate between Scylla and Charybdis, but the waters are a bit rough. Right now, the feeling is we are wandering a bit too close to #2, so we are veering a bit more toward #1. At some point we will have to tack back toward the center again as we sail this ship along.

[Ringo84]

How do you run a "Christian" message board while avoiding two extremes:

1. The horrifying back-slapping self-righteousness of some places which shall not be named; and

2. Losing the "Christian" character altogether.

We are trying to navigate between Scylla and Charybdis, but the waters are a bit rough. Right now, the feeling is we are wandering a bit too close to #2, so we are veering a bit more toward #1. At some point we will have to tack back toward the center again as we sail this ship along.
Well, that seems reasonable to me, CaDan.

I don't mind the "Christian character" of CF returning a bit more as long as it doesn't mean that CF becomes a "Christians only" club or leaves non-believers or "unorthodox" believers to rot in some separated part of the site.

Exactly how to strike a balance, however, escapes me. I just don't like the elitism. It's disturbing.
Ringo

[CaDan]

Well, that seems reasonable to me, CaDan.

I don't mind the "Christian character" of CF returning a bit more as long as it doesn't mean that CF becomes a "Christians only" club or leaves non-believers or "unorthodox" believers to rot in some separated part of the site.

Exactly how to strike a balance, however, escapes me. I just don't like the elitism. It's disturbing.
Ringo

I don't think there is any permanent balance. It is always a flux. The ship will tack back and forth (and up and down, too).

[Ringo84]

I don't think there is any permanent balance. It is always a flux. The ship will tack back and forth (and up and down, too).
As it does in most situations.
Ringo

[Autumnleaf]

CF should be a Christians club with visitors who behave respectfully of Christian beliefs when they participate in threads. This is the only forum I visit where visitors consistently ridicule the beliefs of the people the forum was created for. For this forum to be strong and grow the faith must be defended by those faithful to it.

[Ringo84]

CF should be a Christians club with visitors who behave respectfully of Christian beliefs when they participate in threads. This is the only forum I visit where visitors consistently ridicule the beliefs of the people the forum was created for. For this forum to be strong and grow the faith must be defended by those faithful to it.
Not just visitors. Non-Christians and "unorthodox" believers are mainstays of this site, and they should be welcomed and accepted.

"Constantly" ridicule? That's quite a bit of an exaggeration. It's true that E&M threads often devolve into "prove your God exists" arguments, but I have found that the majority of non-Christians on this site don't fall in this "bomb-thrower" category.
Ringo

[Crazy Liz]

CF should be a Christians club with visitors who behave respectfully of Christian beliefs when they participate in threads. This is the only forum I visit where visitors consistently ridicule the beliefs of the people the forum was created for. For this forum to be strong and grow the faith must be defended by those faithful to it.
Defend it all you want.

How do you defend the faith?

AFAIK, you defend the faith by answering your opponents and by showing them Christian love, not by erasing their words.

[CaDan]

CF should be a Christians club with visitors who behave respectfully of Christian beliefs when they participate in threads. This is the only forum I visit where visitors consistently ridicule the beliefs of the people the forum was created for. For this forum to be strong and grow the faith must be defended by those faithful to it.

The difficult thing is how to do that without turning into a self-righteously backslapping club. There are already a gazillion forums for that kind of dullness.

[Ringo84]

Defend it all you want.

How do you defend the faith?

AFAIK, you defend the faith by answering your opponents and by showing them Christian love, not by erasing their words.
Or banishing them to a separated part of the forum, though I'm not sure that Autumn is necessarily advocating either one of these.

I hope not, anyway.
Ringo

[I'ddie4him2]

I'm not going to say anything one way or the other as far as these changes and how I feel about them.

I will say that I partly agree with Cadan, We have veered off course so to speak over the years and recent months.
As I understand all of this, The site owner wants to get back on course and try to keep a straight and true bearing. Hard to do in rough waters but definitely a worthy aspiration.

For that I applaud him. :clap:

[CaDan]

Not just visitors. Non-Christians and "unorthodox" believers are mainstays of this site, and they should be welcomed and accepted.

"Constantly" ridicule? That's quite a bit of an exaggeration. It's true that E&M threads often devolve into "prove your God exists" arguments, but I have found that the majority of non-Christians on this site don't fall in this "bomb-thrower" category.
Ringo

I moderated Theologyland long enough to see that Little Boy and Fat Man were dropped predominantly from B-29s with a Cross and Crown painted on the nose.

[Ringo84]

I moderated Theologyland long enough to see that Little Boy and Fat Man were dropped predominantly from B-29s with a Cross and Crown painted on the nose.
That's true.
Ringo

[tulc]

Does this mean people can continue calling people who disagree with them on non salvation issues non-Christians? :scratch:
tulc(always more amused then hurt when this comes up but some people really do take offense) :)

[sacredsin]

Hmm interesting since I don't insult people and I am a pagan.

Needless to say the new rule is a bit worry some as others have stated before me.

[Criada]

Christ's love applies to all - and He certainly doesn't consider anyone inferior. Not even from a 'theological viewpoint'.
Perhaps if we concentrate on serving one another rather than belittling one another, we may have a chance of building a community which demonstrates Christian values, rather than arguing about them!

[Angel4Truth]

If the site really is going to be more geared toward christians (as it should be and actually what grew it before) then how do non believers as mods and administrators fit into this - thats enough to turn many christians away from this site.

I hope with this new change this issue will be adressed to as well as the several on staff removing christian posts they dont like without notification and leaving threads which clearly violate the guidelines here because they support lack of christian belief.

[Tmac1818]

If the site really is going to be more geared toward christians (as it should be and actually what grew it before) then how do non believers as mods and administrators fit into this - thats enough to turn many christians away from this site.

I hope with this new change this issue will be adressed to as well as the several on staff removing christian posts they dont like without notification and leaving threads which clearly violate the guidelines here because they support lack of christian belief.
I dont think that happens. Any of the mods who are not Christians are being watched closely I'm sure, so they are most likely very good mods to even be allowed on in the first place. I'm sure they're just as good as the Christian mods are. They spend hours a day on here just like the other mods and have to go through the same thing. I dont think they'd spend so much time on a forum pretending to be a good mod just so they could leave up some posts that should come down...

Because if they weren't mods, those posts would STILL not come down :D Unless somebody sees them, which is the same situation with if they ARE mods. :D

[Tmac1818]

It's funny to notice the difference in tone people use to non-Christian mods vs. Christian mods. Like the argument earlier in the thread, you should read that, where people said that Jesus loves ALL people. He does not think that Christians are better than non-Christians, he waits for non-Christians to come back to Him.

[GerTzedek]

The problem of the definition of "to promote" has hung around for at least three years without a rule-based resolution. At this point, I don't think there is a way we can write a rule to adequately express what we are doing. I know I have certainly tried and failed.

I think we will end up having to take a casustic approach to the problem and go case-by-case. I know that is not the optimal solution, but it is probably the only one.
For those of us who have experienced being wrongly accused, that is not sufficient.

[Tonks]

I dont think that happens. Any of the mods who are not Christians are being watched closely I'm sure, so they are most likely very good mods to even be allowed on in the first place.

They're not watched any closer than any other mod is watched. Some of our best mods are the non-Christian flavor.

[Teshi]

Saying sin is sacred is considered a mock to those of us who feel its the downfall of so many souls.

O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem. :crossrc:

Not the same thing as sacred exactly, but it does muddy the waters!

[Crazy Liz]

O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem. :crossrc:

Not the same thing as sacred exactly, but it does muddy the waters!
I had to look that up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_culpa

[CaDan]

...wouldn't a more accurate description be "There's no user name so simple that someone wont FIND an insult where none was intended!"? :scratch:
tulc(just wondering) :)

tulc's Law.

Let it be inscribed with Poe's Law.

[Teshi]

I had to look that up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_culpa

To be honest, I only know it because I had to sing it in choir back in the day ^_^

[tulc]

O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem. :crossrc:

omnia dicta fortiora si dicta Latina! :)
tulc(finds this to be true) ;)

[CaDan]

For those of us who have experienced being wrongly accused, that is not sufficient.

You are correct--it is not sufficient. But some pretty smart people have been pounding on this issue for a few years and nobody has been able to come up with an all-encompassing solution. Maybe there is one out there, but I have come to doubt it. Hence my suggestion of the use of casuistry to get at least something workable.

[CaDan]

The exclusive and the inclusive are both legitimate strains of christian tradition. Emphasis on both.

[Crazy Liz]

Some people don't know how to state their opinion without dictating, so they read dictating into every statement of opinion.

There are other issues also, I'm sure. Like just wishing not to see certain opinions. But as CaDan posted above, there are plenty of forums that encourage back-slapping people who agree with you and censoring those who don't. I came here because of the breadth of discussion. Isn't a discussion forum about discussion?

[Angel4Truth]

and when you all came here years ago - there were areas for JUST CHRISTIANS - i rest my case

[Ringo84]

and when you all came here years ago - there were areas for JUST CHRISTIANS - i rest my case
Which proves what?

There isn't much of a case to rest, if you ask me.
Ringo

[Angel4Truth]

Actually when christians had areas to discuss christian issues without being browbeaten to death on a christian board and made to constantly defend those beliefs (which they shouldnt have to except in debate areas) the membership was much much higher - most of the board has left since the 777 changes and the giving over the place to the world. Thats a fact.

[Ringo84]

Actually when christians had areas to discuss christian issues without being browbeaten to death on a christian board and made to constantly defend those beliefs (which they shouldnt have to except in debate areas) the membership was much much higher - most of the board has left since the 777 changes and the giving over the place to the world. Thats a fact.
Isn't the entire point of this forum to debate and discuss issues? If some Christians can't handle opinions other than their own, perhaps they should leave.
Ringo

[Crazy Liz]

and when you all came here years ago - there were areas for JUST CHRISTIANS - i rest my case
And I always saw the CO sections as a problem. That rule led to all kinds of further rules about who was a True Christian (TM) and therefore had the right to post their thoughts, and who wasn't.

It was impossible to police, and efforts to police it became ugly.

Hospitality is a Christian virtue and a Christian ministry. It is really the only Christian ministry a discussion forum as a whole can engage in. What is great about hospitality is that it makes room for all kinds of other ministries, without having to control them or interfere in them.

How about we just practice Christian hospitality without asking, "Who is my neighbor?"

[CaDan]

and when you all came here years ago - there were areas for JUST CHRISTIANS - i rest my case

Since you have rested, I take it you will cease posting in thread on the issue.

That's what the term means.

:D

[sacredsin]

Okay so let me get this straight, Angel4Truth. You are angry that other non- Christians are posting in the Christian area of the site so you choose to nit pick over my username. Even though I NEVER go over to the Christian area of the site except to read whats going on, I never post. I have posted one thing in that area that I can think of and it was a sentence long and not in the least disrespectful to anyone.

Nice to see the reason for the madness.

[Angel4Truth]

In other words Liz when you said the reason you came here was because of how nice it was - you didnt really mean it and saught to change it right from the start - is that more accurate ? :)

[Richard]

This announcement will stay closed. If you would like to further discuss the issues related with the OP you may do so by going to the Wiki (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=7216059).

Personal attacks against an individual because of religion, user name, or anything of the sort is forbidden and you are all to adhere to the site rules. Failure to do so will result in moderator action. Thank You!