A clsoer look at Hebrews 3 and 4

[k4c]

Part one of two

Taking a closer look at Hebrews 3 and 4 in light of Prophecykid's insight.

The key thoughts in Hebrews 3 and 4 is not hardening our heart to the voice of God and entering into God’s rest.

Hebrews 3 speaks of the 40 year rebellion when God’s people didn’t believe God, as a result, they didn’t enter into His rest.

Hebrews 3:7-13 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, and said, `They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' So I swore in My wrath, `They shall not enter My rest.' '' Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today,'' lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

What is this rest that God is referring to here?

It’s the rest from their enemies they were promised when they enter into the promise land.

Deuteronomy 12:10 "But when you cross over the Jordan and dwell in the land which the Lord your God is giving you to inherit, and when He gives you rest from all your enemies round about, so that you dwell in safety,

Joshua 21:43-45 So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.

The promise land is a picture of salvation for the people of God back then but the promise land itself is a picture of Christ to us.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

God wants us to hear His voice and obey Him just like He wanted them to do in the wilderness. He does not want us falling like they did because they didn‘t obey Him through their unbelief.

Hebrews 3:15-19 While it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.'' For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

When we become partakers of Christ we enter into that same rest where we are protected from the enemies of the soul.

1 John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

John 16:33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.''

John 17:15 "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus is our promise land, He is our rest and peace in this wicked and perverse generation. Now keep in mind that even though the people of God in Joshua’s enter into God’s rest they were still commanded to love God and keep His commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13-14 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. "And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.

Joshua 22:1-6 Then Joshua called the Reubenites, the Gadites, and half the tribe of Manasseh, and said to them: "You have kept all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you. "You have not left your brethren these many days, up to this day, but have kept the charge of the commandment of the Lord your God. "And now the Lord your God has given rest to your brethren, as He promised them; now therefore, return and go to your tents and to the land of your possession, which Moses the servant of the Lord gave you on the other side of the Jordan. "But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, to love the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to keep His commandments, to hold fast to Him, and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul.'' So Joshua blessed them and sent them away, and they went to their tents.

Joshua 23:1-6 Now it came to pass, a long time after the Lord had given rest to Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua was old, advanced in age. And Joshua called for all Israel, for their elders, for their heads, for their judges, and for their officers, and said to them: "I am old, advanced in age. “You have seen all that the Lord your God has done to all these nations because of you, for the Lord your God is He who has fought for you. "See, I have divided to you by lot these nations that remain, to be an inheritance for your tribes, from the Jordan, with all the nations that I have cut off, as far as the Great Sea westward. “And the Lord your God will expel them from before you and drive them out of your sight. So you shall possess their land, as the Lord your God has promised you. "Therefore be very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, lest you turn aside from it to the right hand or to the left,

Even we, who have entered into Christ‘s rest, must love God and keep His commandments.

Matthew 19:16-17 Now behold, one came and said to Jesus, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?'' So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.''

1 John 5:1-3 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Jesus did not come to do away with the commandments, He cam to magnify them. He came to give them life and honor by living out their true meaning.

Isaiah 42:1-7 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed He will not break, and smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. He will not fail nor be discouraged, till He has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands shall wait for His law.'' Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk on it: "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the Gentiles, To open blind eyes, to bring out prisoners from the prison, those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will magnify the law and make it honorable.

Jesus came to magnify the law and bring honor back to them, not to do away with them.

Jesus lived in perfect obedience to the law so that He could be that perfect and acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the world. He took away the curse of the law because of sin, not the law itself.

Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree''),

In this, Jesus becomes our peace and our rest our promise land.

Ephesians 2:14 For Jesus Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of division between us,

Matthew 11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Luke 1:68-75 "Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, for He has visited and redeemed His people, and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of His servant David, as He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, who have been since the world began, that we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us, to perform the mercy promised to our fathers and to remember His holy covenant, the oath which He swore to our father Abraham: to grant us that we, Being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve Him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

1 Corinthians 15:24-25 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

Jesus is our promise land but just as those who enter into the promise land by Joshua still had the commandments, we too still have the commandments. Just like they were protected from their enemies in the promise land, we too are protected from our enemies.

[k4c]

Part two of two

How did Jesus magnify the law and bring honor to them?

He did so by making love the motive for keeping them, not religious ritual. In this, issues pertaining to life became more important than ritual Sabbath regulations.

Matthew 12:11-12 Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.''

Luke 6:9 Then Jesus said to them, "I will ask you one thing: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?''

These statements, and there are many more, do not do away with the Sabbath, but rather, they put the Sabbath in it’s right perspective outside of ritual observance.

How does the fourth commandment come out of Hebrews 3 and 4?

The fourth commandment is not the issue in Hebrews 3 and 4. God is just using the seventh day as a picture of the fact that everything has been finished from the beginning and how we can rest in that fact.

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,'' although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, `Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Ephesians 1:4 Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

1 Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Revelation 13:8 And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The fourth commandment is part of the Ten Commandments, which they were instructed to keep even in the promise land, but the seventh day in Hebrews 3 and 4 is a picture of God’s finished work.

The fourth commandment is given to glorify the creator of heaven and earth. When we keep the fourth commandment we are bearing witness to the whole world that we worship and serve the God of creation.

Exodus 31:13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: `Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

Some people will say that we are not Israel.

This is true and it’s also the problem for salvation is of the Jews.

So what is God to do with us who are not of Israel?

Ephesians 2:11-13 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been made near by the blood of Christ.

We have been grafted into Israel and have become spiritual Jews.

Romans 11:13-24 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.'' Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these, who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

What does the fourth commandment mean to a Jew?

Exodus 31:13-18 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: `Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. `You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. `Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. `Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a eternal covenant. `It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.“ And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

The Sabbath for a Jew is eternal and reveals the God of creation and acknowledges, through their obedience, that it is God who is sanctifying them. The difference for us is that God no longer requires the death penalty, which is the curse that Jesus took away. There is no death penalty for any one of the Ten Commandments because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1 John 2:2 He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Romans 8:1-8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The carnal mind is death and cannot subject itself to the law of God so they cannot please God. But the spiritually minded can because it can keep the law of God, which brings forth life and peace.

[TrustAndObey]

I haven't read through all of your two posts yet, John, (I'm doing laundry), but I did want to throw these verses in here to help amplify some of what you said that I was able to read so far:

Psa 95:7 For He is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, [and] as [in] the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

10 Forty years long was I grieved with [this] generation, and said, It [is] a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Those texts are KEY when someone mentions "Today" from Hebrews 4 considering how many times I've seen people say "Today (as in everyday) is the Sabbath".

I'll be back in a few minutes to finish reading what you've written.

[TrustAndObey]

Very good posts, my friend.

I agree that there are several "rests" talked about throughout the Bible and in Hebrews.

I think you have definitely hit on something here because Hebrews 4 obviously isn't talking about doing away with anything since it says "there remaineth therefore".

[k4c]

Very good posts, my friend.

I agree that there are several "rests" talked about throughout the Bible and in Hebrews.

I think you have definitely hit on something here because Hebrews 4 obviously isn't talking about doing away with anything since it says "there remaineth therefore".

It seems to me that Israel had the promise land to look forward to but for us, that is long gone. So what is the rest that we have? It's Christ...He is our promise land. We enter into Him.

We rest in Christ but that rest does not do away with the loving God and keeping His commandments of which the fourth commandment is part of.

[TrustAndObey]

John, I'm seeing the same thing about the literal seventh-day Sabbath in Ezekiel 20 (and them hardening their hearts in the wilderness). I think Hebrews 4 touches upon the seventh day Sabbath, spiritual rest, and the eventual Promised Land as in heaven.

I don't think it's focusing on one type of Biblical rest.

For instance, in Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Considering how many times the translators messed up on the punctuation in scripture, doesn't it look like there should be a question mark on the end of that verse?

Anyway, it is a literal DAY in that verse. Hemera.

Basically, what that appears to say to me is "If Jesus had changed the day...wouldn't He have TOLD us?"

What kind of work do you think Hebrews 4:11 is talking about?

[k4c]

John, I'm seeing the same thing about the literal seventh-day Sabbath in Ezekiel 20 (and them hardening their hearts in the wilderness). I think Hebrews 4 touches upon the seventh day Sabbath, spiritual rest, and the eventual Promised Land as in heaven.

I don't think it's focusing on one type of Biblical rest.

For instance, in Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Considering how many times the translators messed up on the punctuation in scripture, doesn't it look like there should be a question mark on the end of that verse?

Anyway, it is a literal DAY in that verse. Hemera.

Basically, what that appears to say to me is "If Jesus has changed the day...wouldn't He have TOLD us?"

I don't believe the name is, Jesus. I believe the name is Joshua.

Hebrews 4:8-11 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Joshua led them into the promise land where they received rest but it wasn't, THE REST.

The rest that we all look forward to is the kingdom of God. So even though they rested and that rest is long gone there still remains, THE REST. The rest that was establish in Christ before the foundation of the world. This is not referring to the fourth commandment. The fourth commandment is something different altogether.

The fourth commandment rest ackonwledges God has creater but the seventh day in Genesis acknowledges creation, where as, the fourth commandment acknowledges the creater.

[TrustAndObey]

John, here's an interesting comparison, read Ezekiel 20 (specifically Eze 20:9-25) and then Exodus 16...it falls right in line with what I said about the laws being added BECAUSE OF transgression.

[TrustAndObey]

I don't believe the name is, Jesus. I believe the name is Joshua.

Hebrews 4:8-11 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Joshua led them into the promise land where they received rest but it wasn't, THE REST.

The rest that we all look forward to is the kingdom of God. So even though they rested and that rest is long gone there still remains, THE REST. The rest that was establish in Christ before the foundation of the world. This is not referring to the fourth commandment. The fourth commandment is something different altogether.

The fourth commandment rest ackonwledges God has creater but the seventh day in Genesis acknowledges creation, where as, the fourth commandment acknowledges the creater.

There's a big problem with that though John, the original name is "Iēsous". It's translated to Jesus in other verses that are clearly talking about Christ.

For instance, Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus (Iēsous), who is called Christ.

That's clearly a verse where the same name is used and it's talking about Christ and there are SEVERAL others.

[k4c]

John, here's an interesting comparison, read Ezekiel 20 (specifically Eze 20:9-21) and then Exodus 16...it falls right in line with what I said about the laws being added BECAUSE OF transgression.

It seems to me that these verses speak of after the law was given.

[TrustAndObey]

It seems to me that these verses speak of after the law was given.

Oh definitely...but notice what Ezekiel says:

20:24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

They started disobeying the Sabbath commandment from the minute they were reminded of it after being brought out of Egypt. (Exodus 16)

BECAUSE they had polluted the Sabbath, they received statutes (ceremonial) that were NOT good. Sacrifices, etc.

He gave them chance after chance.

[k4c]

Oh definitely...but notice what Ezekiel says:

20:24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

They started disobeying the Sabbath commandment from the minute they were reminded of it after being brought out of Egypt. (Exodus 16)

BECAUSE they had polluted the Sabbath, they received statutes (ceremonial) that were NOT good. Sacrifices, etc.

He gave them chance after chance.

You are a Bible scholar...:bow:

Now the big question...:eek:

Was Exodus 16 a reminder of Sabbath observance or a start to Sabbath observance?

It seems to me, by they way it was given and how they responded, that it was a start of Sabbath observance.

Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.

Let me rephrase what was just said. (Let me given them this test to see if they will obey)

Exodus 16:5 "And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.''

What are your thoughts and insight?

[TrustAndObey]

You are a Bible scholar...:bow:

If you were to call my house and ask for "the bible scholar", ain't nobody coming to the phone! :) Learning...just like everybody else. Some things do pop out at me though. Usually I'm just thinking out loud through my fingers.

Now the big question...:eek:

Was Exodus 16 a reminder of Sabbath observance or a start to Sabbath observance?

It seems to me, by they way it was given and how they responded, that it was a start of Sabbath observance.

Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.

Let me rephrase what was just said. (Let me given them this test to see if they will obey)

Exodus 16:5 "And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.''

What are your thoughts and insight?

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It was the start of MANNA to get them through the wilderness, but no, I don't believe it was the start of Sabbath observance. My proof is just like every other commandments on stone...it's mentioned way before Mt. Sinai.

They were in captivity for 430 years, they COULDN'T obey God during that time and even when they were set free they continued to disobey Him.

I think it was around way before Exodus 16 and they needed to be reminded of who the true Creator God was.

It was a blessing to them, but they still profaned it.

In Genesis 26:5 it says that Abraham obeyed the mitsvahs...any other time that word is used in scripture, it's referring to the commandments on stone (except once when it is talking about a command given by a man...at least that I've been able to find, and even that one is questionnable).

Mitsvah isn't mentioned again in scripture until Exodus 16 when it talks about the Sabbath.

Coinky dinky? Maybe....but I just don't think so, personally.

[TrustAndObey]

The covenant with Jacob (Israel) actually started with Abraham....and that was the promise of Canaan and protection from enemies, etc.

So you can't really say it was just for the Jews, because Abraham wasn't a Jew. "His chosen people" began from Abraham, Isaac, and then Jacob (Israel) before ever there was a Jew.

[TrustAndObey]

This obviously isn't a "proof text" or anything, but don't you find it odd that they were given the blessing of Sabbath, along with the promise of manna...and upon some of them breaking it once God says "How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"

The whole reason for the manna was because He remembered His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel).

Exodus 16 says they were "given" the Sabbath. The commandment was actually not to gather the manna on the seventh day.

It was a gift. UNTIL they broke it and it became a commanded covenant later.

[k4c]

It was the start of MANNA to get them through the wilderness, but no, I don't believe it was the start of Sabbath observance. My proof is just like every other commandments on stone...it's mentioned way before Mt. Sinai.

I think you might be right but we may have to fine tune it a little more.

Lets take a closer look at Exodus 16:4.

Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.

The manna was the means to test a law that seems to have been already in affect. I would like more proof of this though...

The manna itself was not the test, but rather, the tool to give the test.

The means to test = "I will rain bread from heaven for you."

Test for what = "Whether they will walk in My law or not."

What law = The Sabbath observence or the gathering of twich as much on the sixth day.

The bead coming down was not the test of the law nor is the daily gathering of it.

The test was on the sixth day to see if they would walk in His law.

Exodus 16:5 "And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.''

But they violated another law by looking for the manna on the seventh day..

Exodus 16:27-28 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?

It seems kind of veird that God would jum all over them if this was the first Sabbath observence.

I would like more scriptual proof of the test thoughts.

[k4c]

This obviously isn't a "proof text" or anything, but don't you find it odd that they were given the blessing of Sabbath, along with the promise of manna...and upon some of them breaking it once God says "How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"

The whole reason for the manna was because He remembered His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel).

Exodus 16 says they were "given" the Sabbath. The commandment was actually not to gather the manna on the seventh day.

It was a gift. UNTIL they broke it and it became a commanded covenant later.

As I'm typing you're saying the same things. How crazy is that?

[TrustAndObey]

I think you might be right but we may have to fine tune it a little more.

Lets take a closer look at Exodus 16:4.

Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.

The manna was the means to test a law that seems to have been already in affect. I would like more proof of this though...

The manna itself was not the test, but rather, the tool to give the test.

The means to test = "I will rain bread from heaven for you."

Test for what = "Whether they will walk in My law or not."

What law = The Sabbath observence or the gathering of twich as much on the sixth day.

The bead coming down was not the test of the law nor is the daily gathering of it.

The test was on the sixth day to see if they would walk in His law.

Exodus 16:5 "And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.''

But they violated another law by looking for the manna on the seventh day..

Exodus 16:27-28 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?

It seems kind of veird that God would jum all over them if this was the first Sabbath observence.

I would like more scriptual proof of the test thoughts.

Beautiful, beautiful....makes absolute sense and I like things that make sense!!

[TrustAndObey]

As I'm typing you're saying the same things. How crazy is that?

That's because you and I are sponges right now...both soaking in as much as we can and noticing the same things!

[TrustAndObey]

The manna is a huge part of the understanding of Sabbath, because Jesus became the true Manna from heaven.

Manna was even placed in the ark of the covenant as a reminder of God's perfect promises.

That wasn't to say that Jesus BECAME the Sabbath...He became a different type of visible promise for a different Promised Land

[TrustAndObey]

I think the big "wall" between a lot of Christians is that they see the covenant between the Children of Israel as THE Old Covenant.

The covenant began with Abraham and a different covenant with Jacob's children resulted because of disobedience to the one with Abraham.

The covenant with Abraham has never changed...we are HEIRS to that covenant through Christ.

And what did Abraham do? He obeyed God's voice, His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. He found favor with God for doing it out of faith....just like us!

[OntheDL]

A few things to consider...

Heb 4:1 '...entering into His rest...' Not rest in general, not even THE rest, but His rest, God's rest.

What rest is His rest?

The children of Israel wandered 40 years and did not enter into rest.

40 years after the covenant with God at Sinai, they didn't enter into the promised land because spiritually they didn't enter into rest in God.

"My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest." Exodus 33:14.

"Stand you in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and you shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein." Jeremiah 6:16.

The book of Hebrews was written almost 40 years after the death of Christ was ratified the New Covenant. The book of Hebrews was the apostle's plea to the new Christians to focus on Christ's heavenly ministry rather than on the earthly temple which was to be destroyed in an impending disaster in 70AD. That is the central theme of the book of Hebrews.

This was the rest that Jesus meant when He said, "Come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls." Matthew 11:28, 29.

The 7th-day sabbath commemorates creation. The 4th explicitly states it commemorates God's 7 day creation. You will not find anywhere in the bible explicitly likens the 7th-day sabbath to the rest with God, or the eternal rest in heaven or Jesus. In fact Hebrews 3 & 4 do not either.

Then why is 7th-day sabbath mentioned together the rest in God in Heb 3 & 4? Because the 7th-day sabbath is the sign of the New Covenant. It signified God's sanctification in His believers.

Exodus 31: 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ezekiel 20
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
...
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

We should note the Israelites were also under the New Covenant. The old, Sinai covenant was a provisional covenant, never meant to save.

The breaking of the 7th-day sabbath was one of main reasons God rejected the Israelites.

Ezekiel 20:16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.

Also Ezekiel 20:13, 21 & 24.

His rest that the Israelites failed to enter into and the new Christians whom apostle Paul admonished to enter into is the Covenant God made with man of which the7th-day sabbath is the sign.

Hebrew 4
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.


Paul used the first sabbath to remind His believers of the original covenant relationship with God and His people: they had complete trust in Him and He dedicated the 7th-day wholly between Himself and them.

[TrustAndObey]

That's a big one too, like you mentioned DL, to rest AS God rested and Hebrews 4 does specifically mention a day.

I agree with you that what some people consider the "old" and "new" covenants aren't necessarily right, because there were SEVERAL covenants in scripture.

That's something we should do a study on, all of us.

I'm starting to experience some serious muscle spasms, so I'm gonna go lay down and see if a cat nap doesn't help. BBL

[OntheDL]

Lainie, here is something for you (and K4C if you wish) to read.

The Books of Hebrews, by M.L. Andreasen.

IMO, it's the best book on Hebrews. It addresses the following issues with the book of Hebrews.

1. authorship
2. the central theme of Hebrews
3. Christ's divinity in ch 1
4. Christ's humanity in ch 2
5. Christ and Moses in ch 3
6. Sabbath and the rest in ch 4
7. Christ our high priest
8. the two covenants in ch 8
9. the controversial issues in chap 9 and 1844.
10. sanctification
...

http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/TheBooksofHebrews.pdf (http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/TheBooksofHebrews.pdf)

[TrustAndObey]

Lainie, here is something for you (and K4C if you wish) to read.

The Books of Hebrews, by M.L. Andreasen.

IMO, it's the best book on Hebrews. It addresses the following issues with the book of Hebrews.

1. authorship
2. the central theme of Hebrews
3. Christ's divinity in ch 1
4. Christ's humanity in ch 2
5. Christ and Moses in ch 3
6. Sabbath and the rest in ch 4
7. Christ our high priest
8. the two covenants in ch 8
9. the controversial issues in chap 9 and 1844.
10. sanctification
...

http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/TheBooksofHebrews.pdf (http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/TheBooksofHebrews.pdf)

I started to print it out so I could read it while I kick my feet up on the couch, but it's 190 pages.

You know what? Every time someone posts something "Adventisty", I realize that I'm even more Adventist than I thought! LOL I could write this stuff myself. :)

Look at this part:

There are three distinct ways in which "rest" is used in this chapter: first, entering the land of Canaan, which was Israel's understanding of rest; second, rest from sin, resting in God, having His peace in the heart, rest for the soul, true conversion; and third, the perfect symbol and sign of that rest, the Sabbath, instituted by God Himself-not a spurious or new Sabbath, but the original seventh day of creation, which "remains" and which God blessed and sanctified and gave to man as a sign of sanctification. (Ezekiel 20:12, 20)

Was I not all over Ezekiel 20 earlier?

This sort of thing is EXACTLY why I joined the Adventist church. Because it "clicked" with me and my understanding of scripture was the same before I ever checked out the doctrine. I thought I was going to have to start my own church. Turns out, I didn't have to!

Now that's Leading, good people!

I'll have to finish reading it later though since I can't print it all out right now and I need to kick my feet up a while longer. I tried to cat nap, but the cat wouldn't allow it (well, my kids either).

[k4c]

I started to print it out so I could read it while I kick my feet up on the couch, but it's 190 pages.

You know what? Every time someone posts something "Adventisty", I realize that I'm even more Adventist than I thought! LOL I could write this stuff myself. :)

Look at this part:

There are three distinct ways in which "rest" is used in this chapter: first, entering the land of Canaan, which was Israel's understanding of rest; second, rest from sin, resting in God, having His peace in the heart, rest for the soul, true conversion; and third, the perfect symbol and sign of that rest, the Sabbath, instituted by God Himself-not a spurious or new Sabbath, but the original seventh day of creation, which "remains" and which God blessed and sanctified and gave to man as a sign of sanctification. (Ezekiel 20:12, 20)

Was I not all over Ezekiel 20 earlier?

This sort of thing is EXACTLY why I joined the Adventist church. Because it "clicked" with me and my understanding of scripture was the same before I ever checked out the doctrine. I thought I was going to have to start my own church. Turns out, I didn't have to!

Now that's Leading, good people!

I'll have to finish reading it later though since I can't print it all out right now and I need to kick my feet up a while longer. I tried to cat nap, but the cat wouldn't allow it (well, my kids either).


I too feel like I need to start a church.

I do love the insight the SDA have of prophecy. I struggle with the no jewlery, no dancing and no wine. These things are not sin in themselves and neigther does the bible call them sin but they can become sin by how they are practiced. I also struggle with the EGW status and of course the co-eternal, co-equal Trinity God. If these things were not part of the denomination I would be right there along side you sister T&O.

[TrustAndObey]

I too feel like I need to start a church.

I do love the insight the SDA have of prophecy. I struggle with the no jewlery, no dancing and no wine. These things are not sin in themselves and neigther does the bible call them sin but they can become sin by how they are practiced. I also struggle with the EGW status and of course the co-eternal, co-equal Trinity God. If these things were not part of the denomination I would be right there along side you sister T&O.

Got a lot of piercings do ya? Hey, that's one way to be holy...I mean holey...if you take 'em out! :)

I can honestly tell you that I do not miss jewelry...nor alcohol, nor dancing (and I grew up with dancing being a MAJOR part of my life). My dear husband's been a drummer since he was NINE (and he's very good I might add). But desire shall fail. It did with us.

Unfortunately the SDA church doesn't give away free cars for recruitment anymore (haha), so it isn't my job to persuade you to join the church.

I was just stating that for ME, right on, I fit in like a puzzle piece and that's such a great feeling.

My husband and I were baptized together on December 25th, 2004, and our pastor made the sweetest statement that day. First he asked if anyone in the congregation had prayed for us, and EVERYBODY stood up (that was very touching) and then he said, "I went to their house to talk to them about the doctrine and I was going to answer any questions they had. Well, I have to tell you....if you want to know what the Bible says, ask THEM!" Then he chuckled.

I thought that was really sweet.

It was supposed to be a short meeting and it went on for hours. It was filled with prayer and I had no doubts that I was making the right decision.

Anyway, that was way off-topic....

The things you do agree with won't make you popular in Churchianity either, so I have the utmost respect for you already, just so you know. I see a lot of people toss off some of the fundamentals as a way to be more popular and to fit in. I'm glad that's not you.

Every one of us has a different relationship with God. You'll find a body of believers you agree with, I have no doubts!

[k4c]

Got a lot of piercings do ya? Hey, that's one way to be holy...I mean holey...if you take 'em out! :)

I can honestly tell you that I do not miss jewelry...nor alcohol, nor dancing (and I grew up with dancing being a MAJOR part of my life). My dear husband's been a drummer since he was NINE (and he's very good I might add). But desire shall fail. It did with us.

Unfortunately the SDA church doesn't give away free cars for recruitment anymore (haha), so it isn't my job to persuade you to join the church.

I was just stating that for ME, right on, I fit in like a puzzle piece and that's such a great feeling.

My husband and I were baptized together on December 25th, 2004, and our pastor made the sweetest statement that day. First he asked if anyone in the congregation had prayed for us, and EVERYBODY stood up (that was very touching) and then he said, "I went to their house to talk to them about the doctrine and I was going to answer any questions they had. Well, I have to tell you....if you want to know what the Bible says, ask THEM!" Then he chuckled.

I thought that was really sweet.

It was supposed to be a short meeting and it went on for hours. It was filled with prayer and I had no doubts that I was making the right decision.

Anyway, that was way off-topic....

The things you do agree with won't make you popular in Churchianity either, so I have the utmost respect for you already, just so you know. I see a lot of people toss off some of the fundamentals as a way to be more popular and to fit in. I'm glad that's not you.

Every one of us has a different relationship with God. You'll find a body of believers you agree with, I have no doubts!

Thanks for the encouragement...

You know the funny thing is that I don't even drink alcohol, never did, nor do I dance or wear jewelry, except a wedding band. The problem I have is when people make these things an issue when the Bible doesn't. They twist the Scriptures to fit their beliefs. For example, the speaks many times of drinking fermented wine as not being a sin. Even at the Lord's super there were people getting drunk, which is a sin, but the fact is they had fermented wine at the Lord's super. The SDA say they did not drinak fermented wine at the Lord's super and that these people came to the super drunk already but this not what the Bible says.

My wife drinks wine so she won't go to the SDA church because of the guilt trip and condemnation that the Bible does not allow for.

The Bible even tells us that when we pick a deacon he should not be given to much wine. This is not grape juice being referred to here. The Bible also tells us not to eat meat of drink wine in front of a weaker brother. This tells me that it's fermented wine and it also tells me that those who believe drinking wine is a sin are called, weak.

Are we producing weaker brothers and sisters when we teach them that drinking wine and eating meat is a sin? These are just some of the issues I have with the SDA. It has nothing to do with me, but rather, bringing unwarranted guilt and condemnation, which can cause many believers to fall away.

What are your thoughts?

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[TrustAndObey]

Drinking has been done to death in this forum honestly.

I made the choice not to allow it into my life. I wasn't one of those people that could just "sip" on wine. When I drank (it was my major in college the first time around) it was to get falling-down drunk, and I never, ever drank for the "taste" of it (I HATE the taste of alcohol).

It's not for me. There's an obsessive gene in my family or something and whatever we do and we like...we OVERdo.

[k4c]

Drinking has been done to death in this forum honestly.

I made the choice not to allow it into my life. I wasn't one of those people that could just "sip" on wine. When I drank (it was my major in college the first time around) it was to get falling-down drunk, and I never, ever drank for the "taste" of it (I HATE the taste of alcohol).

It's not for me. There's an obsessive gene in my family or something and whatever we do and we like...we OVERdo.

I understand the drinking thing has been over done on this forum but we can't just brush it aside. The Bible is clear, drinking fermented wine, in itself, is not a sin. There are many people who understand this but have missed the Sabbath truth but when they hear that the SDA teach that drinking wine is a sin and then see the Scripture twisting to prove it it leads them to think what else have the SDA twisted to fit their belief ie Sabbath.

I've been in law enforcement for 28 years and it seems to me that the Irish do have a tendency to drink heavily.