Reunification is coming! The Time Is Now!

[Catholico]

Hello wandering Catholics,

I believe with the increase of converst to the Eastern Catholic faith.

The Eastern Orthodox and even the Independant Orthodox churches are reuniting!

The two true Christians that have valid churches surely will reunite!

May the Pope and the Saints reunite us Brothers and sisters!

May politics not interfere.

1054
C.

[Orthodox Andrew]

Hey, Brother! Unity between our Churches would be wonderful! However, I don't consider myself wandering.

[Philip]

The Eastern Orthodox and even the Independant Orthodox churches are reuniting!

:scratch:

[Photini]

Hello wandering Catholics,
:scratch:

[Orthodox Andrew]

Now you all got me:scratch:




:P ;)

[Matrona]

Hello wandering CatholicsGee, I don't recall ever being a Catholic, much less wandering away from Catholicism. I wandered over here from Campus Crusade.

[Philip]

Gee, I don't recall ever being a Catholic, much less wandering away from Catholicism. I wandered over here from Campus Crusade.

Many Orthodox call themselves Catholic (or at least Orthodox Catholic). Remember, the Church is One, Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic. She is not, however, wandering.

[Matrona]

Many Orthodox call themselves Catholic (or at least Orthodox Catholic).I know, but I don't think that's what our friend intended by his post.

[Maximus]

I pray for the unity of all true Christians in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - One Fold, One Shepherd (John 10:16).

It would be extremely and exceedingly wonderful if the RCC and the EOC and the rest of the apostolic churches could get together and get everything straight according to the Deposit of Faith.

Until that happens, I will keep on praying.

[Philip]

My prayers are joined with yours, Maximus.

Brothers ans Sisters,
When you pray for the (re)unity of the Church, please keep in mind the Oriental Orthodox. I feel that God will lead us together before healing the rift with the West.

[Maximus]

My prayers are joined with yours, Maximus.

Brothers ans Sisters,
When you pray for the (re)unity of the Church, please keep in mind the Oriental Orthodox. I feel that God will lead us together before healing the rift with the West.
Amen, Brother Philip!

I'm with you!

[Philip]

O All Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we your faithful children beseech you to forgive us the sin of divisiveness, which is rooted in our hearts. Implant in our lives the holy vine of unity which only You can bestow on those who have come together in Your name. Enlighten us with Your grace so that we may come to the knowledge of Your truth and move our hearts to respond with trust and total obedience to your divine will. Through the intercessions of Your Saints, we also praise Your all Holy Name. Grant that we be one as You are One. O Father who is without beginning, O Son who is eternal and O Holy Spirit, the life-creator, illuminate the way and guide us all to once again unite Your Holy Church.

[nicodemus]

My prayers are joined with yours, Maximus.

Brothers ans Sisters,
When you pray for the (re)unity of the Church, please keep in mind the Oriental Orthodox. I feel that God will lead us together before healing the rift with the West.
Indeed. We've had many Oriental Orthodox at our parish because there's no Oriental Orthodox church around here. We've had Coptics, Ethiopians, Malankara-Jacobites from India, etc. There's a book I've been meaning to borrow from one Indian guy at our church about reunification from the Oriental Orthodx perspective. Should be an interesting read!

[Philip]

There's a book I've been meaning to borrow from one Indian guy at our church about reunification from the Oriental Orthodx perspective. Should be an interesting read!

Be sure to post a review.

[Reader Nilus]

The Union with the so called Oriental Orthodox can happen and needs to happen soon. What is needed is a great synod of Bishops of all the Orthodox Churches. Reunion with Rome is along ways off, and I do not see that happening in my life time.
Jeff the Finn

[nicodemus]

Be sure to post a review.
You can count on it. I just need to remember to ask for the book!

[buzuxi]

it is highly unlikely that rome and the orthodox catholic church will re-unite soon. but we know that it doesnt matter for the fullness of catholicity of the apostolic church does not reside thru some network of bishops communing with each other, but exists in every local church who is faithful to the faith once delivered to all, where that church is in comminion with her own bishop and most importantly is the fullness of the catholic body when she partakes of the eucharist in love

[Peter]

unity would be nice, but something would have to give. While the initial problems started out small, they have been given too many centuries to fester and grow. Now the differences between the two sides, West and East, would require someone to say "I was wrong about ______ all these years and have misled all who followed me." Who wants to go first?

Peace.

Peter

[thereselittleflower]

I pray for the unity of all true Christians in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - One Fold, One Shepherd (John 10:16).

It would be extremely and exceedingly wonderful if the RCC and the EOC and the rest of the apostolic churches could get together and get everything straight according to the Deposit of Faith.

Until that happens, I will keep on praying.
Amen, and I join my prayers to yours!


Peace in Him!

[IrishJohan]

:scratch:
If I could hazard a guess, perhaps he means the talks between the ROCOR and ROC? Or I suppose he could be referring to the talks between the EOC and the Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox. If not either of these, I'm clueless as to what he is referring to...

Pax Christi,
John

[IrishJohan]

unity would be nice, but something would have to give. While the initial problems started out small, they have been given too many centuries to fester and grow. Now the differences between the two sides, West and East, would require someone to say "I was wrong about ______ all these years and have misled all who followed me." Who wants to go first?
Since this is your board, the host should go first. Please, begin... ;)

Seriously, these differences I have faith will work themselves out with more and more prodding by the Holy Spirit. It may not happen in my lifetime, but reunion eventually will, by the grace of God. Personally I think there is going to be a lot of "oops!" on both sides...

Pax Christi,
John

[IrishJohan]

I pray for the unity of all true Christians in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - One Fold, One Shepherd (John 10:16).

It would be extremely and exceedingly wonderful if the RCC and the EOC and the rest of the apostolic churches could get together and get everything straight according to the Deposit of Faith.

Until that happens, I will keep on praying.Amen, as do I. I do not know how such will be accomplished, but I have faith it will happen one day. We need each other just as a body needs both lungs to breathe properly. As a Latin Catholic I would welcome such a reunion and I'm sure there are a number of Eastern Catholics whose Churches broke from Orthodoxy who would love reunion as well. Now how to get past centuries of petty bickering... I leave it in God's hands. Perhaps we can do our parts by not only praying about it, but being honest with one another on our differences -- NOT for the sake of apologetics but as one brother to another. Eventually they'll work themselves out. I like the efforts of the St. John Chrysostom Society...


Pax Christi,
John

[isshinwhat]

http://www.cired.org/cat/15_Press_Release_Rome_2002.pdf

Interesting article. The whole series, http://www.cired.org/cat
is very interesting to me. Goes to show what you learn about someone when you actually speak.

May the Lord forgive our pride.

Neal

[Reader Nilus]

The differences between Rome and Orthodoxy are not petty, for one. The biggest stumbling block is papal power which would have to be renounced if reunion with Orthodoxy is ever going to happen. From my vantage point I see things in Roman Catholicism which raise questions, the stripping of the churches, revisions in liturgy, and the like. That would seem to be moving away from Orthodoxy. I see no reason whatsoever for union for the sake of union. If union takes place it has to take place in Truth. Every attempt at union in the past was not union in Truth.
Jeff the Finn

[Roald]

What do you mean by "the stripping of the churches"? How are Orthodox churches different? (I know of many Catholic sanctuaries that I am not crazy of)

[Roald]

ooh, I meant "crazy about"

Anyway, this is my first post in Orthodox, so hello from the 'Westside'!

[Photini]

ooh, I meant "crazy about"

Anyway, this is my first post in Orthodox, so hello from the 'Westside'!
Hello!

[Roald]

Hello!
Photini,

I happened to check your profile and saw that we have the same favorite verse--Luke 7:47. What about it do you like?

[Oblio]

ooh, I meant "crazy about"

Anyway, this is my first post in Orthodox, so hello from the 'Westside'!

Welcome Roald.

Have some Ouzo, pita, hummus and olives. We'll bring out the good stuff on the feast of the Nativity :clap:

[Matrona]

Anyway, this is my first post in Orthodox, so hello from the 'Westside'!
Word up, homeboy. ;)

To answer your original question, the problems many Orthodox have with the Western way of worship are primarily based on changes made during Vatican II. What I find incredible is that many of Vatican II's decisions and such are worded so vaguely; a Byzantine Catholic friend of mine told me how Vatican II's call for active participation in the liturgy lead to something called "liturgical dancing"--anybody want to tell me what that was about?...

In many Orthodox eyes, we look at things like Vatican II and we see the Catholic Church placing ecumenism higher than orthodoxy (notice the little "o" :) ) and orthopraxis. Some of us interpret these decisions as saying that ecumenism (and therefore inoffensiveness) is more important than following the ways and traditions handed down by the Apostles.

To get back more on topic, my friend told me about a Catholic friend of hers who would take her small son to church with her. The church was of a more traditional style. The woman would ask her son, "Where's Jesus? Find Jesus for me." Her son would then point to a crucifix, a picture, or whatever. Then they moved to a different city and went to a more modern-style Catholic church, and she did the same thing with her son, asking him to point to where Jesus was. The boy looked around--and couldn't find anything to point to! There wasn't any artwork, the only cross they could see was Protestant-style without a body, et cetera. The woman later said that right then and there, she had half a mind to write to their bishop and ask why her son couldn't find Jesus in a Catholic church!

I went to a Catholic mass early this year and that was one thing that made me kind of sad, was that there weren't that many things there to represent God, Christ, or anything to do with what we were there for. I think there was a crucifix in the back, and there was a Chi-Rho thing at the front, and I noticed the Alpha-Omega symbols in the "stained glass" (it wasn't real, it was controlled by a dimmer switch).

(Also, I don't know if there are even supposed to be any rules about this, but I found it curious that the priest had absolutely no idea who I was but he asked me to be one of the ones to bring up the gifts. I certainly gave no indication that I was Catholic, I had just TOLD him I wasn't Catholic in a (failed) effort to get to talk with him afterwards, and at the time, I wasn't even baptized. I did as the priest asked me to, but I felt REALLY uncomfortable about handling what was supposed to be consecrated as the body of Christ while I had yet to be baptized a Christian.)

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Eastern Christian worship practice so I hope I'm not going back too far. Traditional Orthodox church architecture and worship practice is geared towards keeping us focused on Christ. At nearly all times in every service, the faithful are facing an iconostasis covered in icons of the One we are there to worship and those holy ones we venerate. And even when we're not facing the iconostasis, the other walls are covered in icons, too. In many churches, there are no pews, or if there are any, we do not use them very much--we tend to stand through most of the liturgy. (It was tough for this ex-Protestant at first, but ya get used to it after awhile, trust me.) When your church makes you stand up most of the time, you have a lot less problems with people snoring during the consecration. ;)

[Oblio]

(Also, I don't know if there are even supposed to be any rules about this, but I found it curious that the priest had absolutely no idea who I was but he asked me to be one of the ones to bring up the gifts. I certainly gave no indication that I was Catholic, I had just TOLD him I wasn't Catholic in a (failed) effort to get to talk with him afterwards, and at the time, I wasn't even baptized. I did as the priest asked me to, but I felt REALLY uncomfortable about handling what was supposed to be consecrated as the body of Christ while I had yet to be baptized a Christian.)


:eek:

[nyj]

What I find incredible is that many of Vatican II's decisions and such are worded so vaguely; a Byzantine Catholic friend of mine told me how Vatican II's call for active participation in the liturgy lead to something called "liturgical dancing"--anybody want to tell me what that was about?That has not as much to do with Vatican II as it has to do with people hell-bent on remaking the Church in their own image. Having read documents from several Catholic Councils (Trent, Vatican I and Vatican II predominantly) I don't see anything that separates Vatican II from the others. If anything, I think Vatican II was more explicit on what it meant... that has been largely ignored. For instance, when speaking of the Novus Ordo, it was clear that the use of Latin was to be retained, as was the use of Gregorian Chant... that never happened... or didn't at first. Things are definitely "swinging back" from the liberal spin (mostly in the United States) that was placed on it.

In many Orthodox eyes, we look at things like Vatican II and we see the Catholic Church placing ecumenism higher than orthodoxy (notice the little "o" :) ) and orthopraxis.From the outside looking in, it may seem that way... but I daresay that you were probably given these notions from people who were dissatisified with Vatican II (ie: reactionary Catholics) rather than pouring over all the Vatican II documents yourself.

Some of us interpret these decisions as saying that ecumenism (and therefore inoffensiveness) is more important than following the ways and traditions handed down by the Apostles.On one hand people lamblast the Catholic Church for issuing offensive documents like Domini Iesus which, according to them relegates all non-Catholics to a sort of "second class Christian" and on the other, the Catholic Church is so ecumenical as to water down all of Christianity. What's it going to be?

To get back more on topic, my friend told me about a Catholic friend of hers who would take her small son to church with her. The church was of a more traditional style. The woman would ask her son, "Where's Jesus? Find Jesus for me." Her son would then point to a crucifix, a picture, or whatever. Then they moved to a different city and went to a more modern-style Catholic church, and she did the same thing with her son, asking him to point to where Jesus was. The boy looked around--and couldn't find anything to point to! There wasn't any artwork, the only cross they could see was Protestant-style without a body, et cetera. The woman later said that right then and there, she had half a mind to write to their bishop and ask why her son couldn't find Jesus in a Catholic church!Remember, the Orthodox Church went through an iconoclastic phase herself. You can thank the West for helping maintain those traditions during that dark period. If the Orthodox Church serves as an example for the West this time around, I say we can call it even, no? :)

I did as the priest asked me to, but I felt REALLY uncomfortable about handling what was supposed to be consecrated as the body of Christ while I had yet to be baptized a Christian.At the time you handled it, it was simply bread and wine. The consecration comes afterwards.

[Reformed Baptist]

I don't agree with the teachings of the Orthodox Church (I'm an ex-Greek Orthodox), but feel the Orthodox are better off without the RC church. :blush: With popes kissing Qu'ran's, they are schism is too large...

[nyj]

I don't agree with the teachings of the Orthodox Church (I'm an ex-Greek Orthodox), but feel the Orthodox are better off without the RC church. :blush: With popes kissing Qu'ran's, they are schism is too large...
I can only hope yours is the minority opinion (very minor at that).

[Oblio]

I don't agree with the teachings of the Orthodox Church (I'm an ex-Greek Orthodox), but feel the Orthodox are better off without the RC church.


We would all be better if we were one united Church as it was for at least 800 years before the cracks started to form.

What teachings of the EO do you disagree with ? What caused you to leave the Church ? Did you marry into or out of the Church ? (It's a big chasm between Baptist and Apostolic Christianity)

[Oblio]

At the time you handled it, it was simply bread and wine. The consecration comes afterwards.


After reparsing the sentence, I see that it was the Prosphora (and not the Eucharist) that was handled. Still a bit odd for a lay heterodox (WRT to the celebrant) to bring forth the Holy Gifts. ( I am assuming this was the modern version of the Great Entrance ?? )

[nyj]

After reparsing the sentence, I see that it was the Prosphora (and not the Eucharist) that was handled.
Yes.

Still a bit odd for a lay heterodox (WRT to the celebrant) to bring forth the Holy Gifts.
Yes, I'd say so as well, but perhaps the priest did this for a variety of reasons. Perhaps he thought that this gesture would strike a chord within her and result in the bestowing of grace effecting her conversion. Or, perhaps it just didn't click with him that she wasn't Christian, maybe he was distracted. I don't know. In my parish, only practicing Catholics bring forth the gifts prior to the consecration.
( I am assuming this was the modern version of the Great Entrance ?? )Forgive my inexperience with "all things Orthodox" but are you referring to the point in the Liturgy where the priest processes through the church with the bread and wine during the Cherubimic Hymn? If so, I'd say that this is at a similar point in the Mass, however the priest, in the Latin Rite, never leaves the altar while the Mass is being performed.

[nyj]

Still a bit odd for a lay heterodox (WRT to the celebrant) to bring forth the Holy Gifts.Yes, I'd say so as well, but perhaps the priest did this for a variety of reasons. Perhaps he thought that this gesture would strike a chord within her and result in the bestowing of grace effecting her conversion.
It is not unknown within our faith that God works in mysterious ways. As a matter of fact, Chanter and I had just discussed St. Ambrose, who went from an unbaptized citizen of Milan to Bishop based simply on the voice of a lone child... and where was he at the time? In church. :)

[Matrona]

That has not as much to do with Vatican II as it has to do with people hell-bent on remaking the Church in their own image. Having read documents from several Catholic Councils (Trent, Vatican I and Vatican II predominantly) I don't see anything that separates Vatican II from the others. If anything, I think Vatican II was more explicit on what it meant... that has been largely ignored.If Vatican II was more explicit, then why was its explicitness largely ignored? Seems like if the language of the decisions of a council suddenly got a lot more explicit than it had been for previous councils, it would make people stand up and pay attention.

For instance, when speaking of the Novus Ordo, it was clear that the use of Latin was to be retained, as was the use of Gregorian Chant... that never happened... or didn't at first. Things are definitely "swinging back" from the liberal spin (mostly in the United States) that was placed on it.I've heard that theoretically, a present-day Roman Catholic priest could celebrate a Novus Ordo mass in Latin and facing with the people.

From the outside looking in, it may seem that way... but I daresay that you were probably given these notions from people who were dissatisified with Vatican II (ie: reactionary Catholics) rather than pouring over all the Vatican II documents yourself.Well, I can't say I pored over ancient documents when I was searching for a new church. I can say, however, that there are reasons I didn't take the Catholic exit off the spiritual seeker roundabout, and Vatican II isn't really one of them, and I don't think making a decision of whether or not to become Catholic has to necessarily involve travelling to Rome and digging through the Vatican archives. ;)

On one hand people lamblast the Catholic Church for issuing offensive documents like Domini Iesus which, according to them relegates all non-Catholics to a sort of "second class Christian" and on the other, the Catholic Church is so ecumenical as to water down all of Christianity. What's it going to be?The answer, I think, is to strike it down the middle. In other words, it wouldn't be right to try to convince all other Christians that they're going to burn forever unless they become Catholic--but nor is it right to be "ecumenical" to the point where the Pope kisses a book of lies and heresy.

Ecumenism is nice in small doses, but dangerous heresies weren't defeated with language like, "Well, Mr. Arius, I respect your opinion, and I respect your right to make decisions for yourself, but I really don't think I can bring myself to agree with what you're saying, and I hope you can forgive me for that." ;)

Remember, the Orthodox Church went through an iconoclastic phase herself. You can thank the West for helping maintain those traditions during that dark period. If the Orthodox Church serves as an example for the West this time around, I say we can call it even, no? :)I could live with that. :)

At the time you handled it, it was simply bread and wine. The consecration comes afterwards.I knew that it hadn't been consecrated, but I still felt really uncomfortable about it--a better way to phrase that sentence would have been to say, "I did as the priest asked me to, but I felt REALLY uncomfortable about handling what was intended to be consecrated as the body of Christ while I had yet to be baptized a Christian."

Before I was baptized, I didn't even go near the prosphora before it was consecrated. Even now, if I end up being the one to get it ready for the liturgy, I don't just whip it out of the freezer and throw it in the microwave, I defrost the prosphora with due reverence for what I'm handling. I know some Christians don't feel the way I do about the Eucharist, but this bread is going to become the Body of my Lord, and the wine is going to become His Blood--I'm not going to treat it like nachos and beer, for crying out loud. :)

[Oblio]

Forgive my inexperience with "all things Orthodox" but are you referring to the point in the Liturgy where the priest processes through the church with the bread and wine during the Cherubimic Hymn? If so, I'd say that this is at a similar point in the Mass, however the priest, in the Latin Rite, never leaves the altar while the Mass is being performed.


That would be it :)


Ecumenism is nice in small doses, but dangerous heresies weren't defeated with language like, "Well, Mr. Arius, I respect your opinion, and I respect your right to make decisions for yourself, but I really don't think I can bring myself to agree with what you're saying, and I hope you can forgive me for that."


The proper response to Arius is to punch him in the nose ... BAM!

Most Holy St. Nicholas, pray for us sinners ;)


I know some Christians don't feel the way I do about the Eucharist, but this bread is going to become the Body of my Lord, and the wine is going to become His Blood--I'm not going to treat it like nachos and beer, for crying out loud.


Mo' Nachos (http://www.monachos.net)

[nyj]

If Vatican II was more explicit, then why was its explicitness largely ignored?
There are books upon books written about this. I couldn't do it justice in a single post. Simply, it has to do with people and agendas (especially in the United States... you don't see the abuses you claim in other parts of the world) taking advantage of a poorly catechized group of individuals.

The answer, I think, is to strike it down the middle. In other words, it wouldn't be right to try to convince all other Christians that they're going to burn forever unless they become Catholic--but nor is it right to be "ecumenical" to the point where the Pope kisses a book of lies and heresy.
Are you implying with this, that the Catholic Church is intentionally speaking out of both sides of her mouth? If so, I'll refrain from replying henceforth... it won't be pretty as I take pretty serious offense to when people call my faith, and my spiritual father, a liar.

I knew that it hadn't been consecrated, but I still felt really uncomfortable about it--a better way to phrase that sentence would have been to say, "I did as the priest asked me to, but I felt REALLY uncomfortable about handling what was intended to be consecrated as the body of Christ while I had yet to be baptized a Christian."
You could have simply said "No". Right?

I know some Christians don't feel the way I do about the Eucharist, but this bread is going to become the Body of my Lord, and the wine is going to become His Blood--I'm not going to treat it like nachos and beer, for crying out loud. :)
Catholics don't go around treating the Eucharist like it was nachos and beer either.

[Photini]

Photini,

I happened to check your profile and saw that we have the same favorite verse--Luke 7:47. What about it do you like?
It reminds me that my sinful past is not a hopeless liability.

[Photini]

NYJ,
In your post 32 on this thread you were supposed to be quoting me....those are NOT my words. Can you kindly please go back and edit it?

[nyj]

NYJ,
In your post 32 on this thread you were supposed to be quoting me....those are NOT my words. Can you kindly please go back and edit it?
Fixed. My apologies.

[Photini]

Fixed. My apologies.
is okay...:)

[Matrona]

There are books upon books written about this. I couldn't do it justice in a single post. Simply, it has to do with people and agendas (especially in the United States... you don't see the abuses you claim in other parts of the world) taking advantage of a poorly catechized group of individuals.
Isn't the Catechism standardized for the Catholic Church? If that's the case, how can there be a poorly catechized Catholic? They were either catechized or they weren't, right?

Are you implying with this, that the Catholic Church is intentionally speaking out of both sides of her mouth? If so, I'll refrain from replying henceforth... it won't be pretty as I take pretty serious offense to when people call my faith, and my spiritual father, a liar.
No, I was responding to the things you mentioned, and I said that my opinion was that neither way is the proper way to handle being one church out of many religions.

You could have simply said "No". Right?
Actually, not really. I was there with a Catholic boy. The priest came up to us, and after I introduced myself and explained I wasn't Catholic (because the boy didn't seem to think it was terribly important for an inquirer to meet the priest), he asked the two of us to bring up the gifts when the time came. The boy said "sure, we'll do it!" before I could put a word in edgewise. So I decided to just suck it up and do it, since doing it probably wasn't going to send me straight to heck and I did want to be baptized, I just wasn't sure by who yet, and that was at least better than a straight-up heathen bringing up the gifts, right?

Catholics don't go around treating the Eucharist like it was nachos and beer either.
I would certainly hope not. :) I was merely providing a hypothetical to act as a foil for the way I treat the things that become the sacraments.

[nyj]

Isn't the Catechism standardized for the Catholic Church? If that's the case, how can there be a poorly catechized Catholic? They were either catechized or they weren't, right?
People have to read it Matrona. Also, the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, a much more indepth document than the Baltimore Catechism, is a "new addition" to Catholic teaching, instituted by Pope John Paul II. The reign of Pope John Paul II came after Vatican II was long over. Therefore, an entire generation went without the benefit of this Catechism. Also, you make it seem like, just because this book exists, everyone is going to know it frontwards and backwards. I doubt it even works that way in the Orthodox Church.

[Reformed Baptist]

We would all be better if we were one united Church as it was for at least 800 years before the cracks started to form.

What teachings of the EO do you disagree with ? What caused you to leave the Church ? Did you marry into or out of the Church ? (It's a big chasm between Baptist and Apostolic Christianity)The Church is united...it always was and always will be. :clap:

[Philip]

Also, you make it seem like, just because this book exists, everyone is going to know it frontwards and backwards. I doubt it even works that way in the Orthodox Church.

You are correct. The same could be said about mathematics. There are plenty of good math books, and we all had to take math classes. Yet, there are many people who have lost their math skills.

[nyj]

You are correct. The same could be said about mathematics. There are plenty of good math books, and we all had to take math classes. Yet, there are many people who have lost their math skills.I know this first-hand. I hate math (no more so than right now, after having had to work out chi square equations for my thesis work). :)

[BBAS 64]

I know this first-hand. I hate math (no more so than right now, after having had to work out chi square equations for my thesis work). :)
YUCK!!

BBAS

[Oblio]

The Church is united...it always was and always will be.


Egads !!

My convert history is showing :o

What I meant was that all Christians should be united in one Faith. That can hardly be said today.

[MariaRegina]

The Church is united...it always was and always will be. :clap:

Those who refuse to partake of the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church are no longer in communion with the Holy Church of Christ.

[nyj]

YUCK!!
Yep, tell me about it. Thank the Lord for computer programs such as SPSS though! :D

[MariaRegina]

Yep, tell me about it. Thank the Lord for computer programs such as SPSS though! :D

Is SPSS better than Excel or Minitabs? I'll probably have to analyze some data also, but our campus uses Excel.

[nyj]

SPSS is designed solely for complex statistics. What Excel couldn't do without either additional downloads of special statistical packages, SPSS did in one minute once my data was loaded. Piece of cake. Of course I had someone show me what to do, but SPSS worked wonders. From what I gather, a lot of universities use SPSS as well... I know ours does. The problem with SPSS is, if your university doesn't have it... it's expensive (over $500).

As for Minitab, I don't know... the last time I used Minitab I was on a 286 over a decade ago! :D Of course, a lot of textbooks still use Minitab in their examples, so I'm assuming it's still a viable resource.

[Philip]

Is SPSS better than Excel or Minitabs? I'll probably have to analyze some data also, but our campus uses Excel.

Speaking as a professional mathematician, SPSS is vastly superior to either Excel or Minitabs for large datasets or complex analsys. Excel is viable for everyday use, such as analyzing trends in business, but can't keep up with SPSS. If you are going to be doing hard-core data analysis or data mining, you absolutely need SPSS and Mathematica. (Both are availible to students for non-comercial use at greatly reduced prices.)

[Philip]

Wow, what happened to this thread?

[Reformed Baptist]

Those who refuse to partake of the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church are no longer in communion with the Holy Church of Christ.
So you say.

[Roald]

It reminds me that my sinful past is not a hopeless liability.
Thanks! The verse reminds me that I should love God even more in the light of my own sinfulness and His willingness to forgive me.

[MariaRegina]

So you say.

What do you say about Holy Communion being a symbol of unity. I'm not attacking - and I apologize if it was taken that way.

Don't you miss Holy Communion?

If you say the Church is united, where is everyone?

Christ is the Head of our Church, but where are the members? Why are we so scattered?

[Matrona]

Don't you miss Holy Communion?
I don't know about our Reformed Baptist friend, but every time a school break rolls around, I have to go the whole time without being able to go to church, and therefore without the Sacraments.

It's like having my heart cut out, honestly. I've never been allowed to go to services for Ascension, Pentecost, Transfiguration, or the Nativity of Our Lord. And someone can just walk away from that willingly? There weren't any dragging-me-away-kicking-and-screaming or death threats involved?

I just really can't see how someone could leave the Sacraments behind permanently. I mean, it's just inconceivable to me, that someone could walk away from the actual Body and Blood of Christ. Earlier tonight I realized that I'd rather sit for a thousand History finals than go home for Christmas, and I'm sitting here with my eyes red from crying because of how honestly pathetic that is!

:prayer:

[MariaRegina]

I don't know about our Reformed Baptist friend, but every time a school break rolls around, I have to go the whole time without being able to go to church, and therefore without the Sacraments.

It's like having my heart cut out, honestly. I've never been allowed to go to services for Ascension, Pentecost, Transfiguration, or the Nativity of Our Lord. And someone can just walk away from that willingly? There weren't any dragging-me-away-kicking-and-screaming or death threats involved?

I just really can't see how someone could leave the Sacraments behind permanently. I mean, it's just inconceivable to me, that someone could walk away from the actual Body and Blood of Christ. Earlier tonight I realized that I'd rather sit for a thousand History finals than go home for Christmas, and I'm sitting here with my eyes red from crying because of how honestly pathetic that is!
:prayer:

Sorry I just woke up and pushed all the wrong buttons. Today another final in English historical changes. Fun and games!

Here in America we have an Orthodox Missions group that goes into an area and searches the phone book for other people of Greek, Arabic, Romanian, Russian, etc descent. Then they mail out letters to them inviting them to a meeting. Also they have an Orthodoxy night with flyers posted at all the major businesses, etc. With the handful of people, they have reader services, vespers services and an occasional Divine Liturgy if the priest can get into town occasionally. That's an option for you. Perhaps if your country doesn't have an Evangelism and Missions Board you could request American aid from Primate Saliba through your local priest -- or ask our SCOBA mission group located in Florida - OCMC, because they start new missions all over the world.
Perhaps that is a way for an American Priest to get a brief foreign vacation.

Go for it!

[Polycarp1]

Mo' Nachos (http://www.monachos.net/)
Gee, Oblio, wouldn't that make you a Mo'nachist? :D

To get a bit more serious, I'd be interested in where you Orthodx see us Anglicans in the efforts at reunion.

Certainly we do a lot of things far differently than the Orthodox, and use a lot of Western formularies -- but our theology is moving much closer to what Orthodoxy has taught all along.

I'd be particularly interested in what Jeff the Finn has to say, as an ex Anglican now Orthodox.

[Matrona]

Dear chanter,

I guess I wasn't very clear before, I'm sorry. I live in the US; the reason I don't get to go to church when I'm with my parents is because they don't want me to. They don't like me going to church. There are three Orthodox churches in my hometown and I've never seen any of them. I was baptized in the city where I attend university, and that's where my home church is.

[MariaRegina]

Dear chanter,

I guess I wasn't very clear before, I'm sorry. I live in the US; the reason I don't get to go to church when I'm with my parents is because they don't want me to. They don't like me going to church. There are three Orthodox churches in my hometown and I've never seen any of them. I was baptized in the city where I attend university, and that's where my home church is.

Dear Matrona,

I will pray for your parents. Are they members of any church?

[Matrona]

Dear Matrona,

I will pray for your parents. Are they members of any church?
Dear Chanter, my parents do not attend church. They took my sister and I to a non-denominational church sometimes when we were little, but that's it. Now we don't even go on Christmas or Easter. Anyway, my family never talks about God... we didn't even when we went to church. I'm sorry if I'm turning into a chronic complainer... it's just going to be so depressing being with my folks when they're so... of the world, to borrow an expression.

Please continue to pray for my parents... today was the last time I'll be able to receive Holy Communion for three weeks, until after the new year. Possibly after Theophany, even. I just wish they would understand... even if they think that they do not need God... I'm not under their delusion!

[MariaRegina]

Dear Chanter, my parents do not attend church. They took my sister and I to a non-denominational church sometimes when we were little, but that's it. Now we don't even go on Christmas or Easter. Anyway, my family never talks about God... we didn't even when we went to church. I'm sorry if I'm turning into a chronic complainer... it's just going to be so depressing being with my folks when they're so... of the world, to borrow an expression.

Please continue to pray for my parents... today was the last time I'll be able to receive Holy Communion for three weeks, until after the new year. Possibly after Theophany, even. I just wish they would understand... even if they think that they do not need God... I'm not under their delusion!

Dear Matrona:

Do you have any friends who could go with you to church? Do you have use of a car? I either walked or drove myself to church when my parents didn't want to go. I always wore a skirt, so my parents didn't know if I was going shopping or to the Church. (You can put a skirt in your bag and change later.) If they'd ask me later if I did go to Church, I would say yes, that I had met a friend there. However, they rarely asked. My parents were happy that I would meet friends at church rather than at a bar or disco!

You can say, "I'm going over to visit one of my best friends, then I'm going to do some shopping. Do you want anything at the store?" If I said that, my parents would gladly give me a shopping list and some money to spend. Do some shopping right after Divine Liturgy. Christ is more than a best friend, so you're not lying. Legally, you are an adult.

Pascha is hard because most of the Holy Week and Pascha Services are at nighttime, but for the Nativity of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, most churches have a morning service.

If you call the church, there may be someone there that lives close by and could pick you up. If you don't want them to come to your house, you could always meet them at a corner away from your house. Once you meet a nice young fellow, they'd probably be tickled pink, even if he is from the Church. :pink:

Know that I will pray for you.
:pray:

Lovingly in Christ,

Elizabeth

P.S. Remember to pray the Trisagion. Sometimes I would just walk around outside and sing it. I always feel close to God at those moments.

[MariaRegina]

Matrona, I wish I lived in your neck of the woods so that I could take you to church.

[Matrona]

Do you have any friends who could go with you to church? Do you have use of a car? I either walked or drove myself to church when my parents didn't want to go.
If I could drive, that's exactly what I would do, but I don't have a license. (Actually I'm hoping I can get my learners permit over break.) If I were to go to church I'd have to get my parents to go.

Pascha is hard because most of the Holy Week and Pascha Services are at nighttime, but for the Nativity of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, most churches have a morning service.
I'm hoping to somehow guilt-trip my parents into going to church for Christmas, at least. They have just enough of an affinity for Christianity in general that they might go for it. Any church would do... although I'm gonna cross my fingers and hope I can get us to go to the Antiochian one that's not far from my parents' house. They have a beeeeeeeautiful platytera icon there behind the altar, and I would so love to get my parents to love the Orthodox Church as much as I do. As it is, I feel like I live a double life. One life in which I can embrace my faith openly, and in the other I have to keep it under wraps and not mention it directly.


Once you meet a nice young fellow, they'd probably be tickled pink, even if he is from the Church.

I did meet a nice young fellow, but unfortunately he's already spoken for. :cry: Oh well, he'll be off to seminary pretty soon anyway. Recently our bishop was here, and seeing that my friend is attached and I'm not, the bishop told my friend that he should try to find a nice seminarian for me. :) (I hope my friend knows I'm gonna hold him to that... :D ) I responded by saying that if I wasn't married by the time I'm 30, my contingency plan is to move next door to a seminary anyway! :)

P.S. Remember to pray the Trisagion. Sometimes I would just walk around outside and sing it. I always feel close to God at those moments.
I love the Trisagion. I always repeat it silently to myself whenever I get scared or don't know what else to pray. It's such a comfort to me.

[Orthodox Andrew]

I can really relate to what you're going through with your family, Matrona. Although our situations are not exactly the same with our families, I still have similar issues that I have to deal with. For example, I live in a house with all "Greeks", however the mention of Orthodoxy or almost of anything to do with God, is usually met with people screaming that I'm crazy. However, I have learned that Orthodoxy is the path I choose, and I have really lost interest in them liking it or not. That's not to say that I never pray for them to fully embrace Christianity. Yet I have learned just to become happy in my life in Christ.

Just hang in there.:)

[Matrona]

Oh poor Andreas... :( I know just how you feel. Just concentrate on working out your own salvation and pray that they will recognize and perhaps even follow your example.

What I find funny is that my parents sort of have a preference for Christians, you know, they each had a typical Southern upbringing of occasional church but never really took it seriously. So since my sister moved in with her boyfriend, they've strongly disapproved... but they refuse to say anything bad to her, like, "We really wish you didn't do this" or anything. So, if you ask them, it's okay if I want to shack up with a boyfriend like a total prostitute, but if I embrace my spirituality and follow the faith that I find to be the absolute fulfillment of Christianity on earth... that's suddenly BAD?! It's all right if I want to have promiscuous premarital sex, but a capital offense if I want to spend a weekend in a monastery?! :scratch:

I know it's mean to say it, but sometimes I feel like my parents are total freaks of nature!

[MariaRegina]

Matrona,

Have you ever read The Mountain of Silence by Kyriacos Markides?

It seems like most parents have this fear of monasticism. They want grandchildren not a monastic child of theirs.

Anyway read the book as it may give you some ideas on how to deal with your parents. Fr. Maximos almost got killed by some angry parents who felt that he had stolen their children, but somehow he was able to turn them around. It's amazing what faith and prayer can do. I think he fasted a lot for them also.

[Reader Nilus]

It's all right if I want to have promiscuous premarital sex, but a capital offense if I want to spend a weekend in a monastery?! :scratch:
I know it's mean to say it, but sometimes I feel like my parents are total freaks of nature!I do not think that is so freakish, my parents were the same way, when I began to take the faith seriously. It may mean that it is easier to handle that one wants to live below the standard they set, even if they do not approve, than to live above the standard they set, which makes them guilty. Human nature is strange in that way.
Jeff the Finn

[Reformed Baptist]

Let's face it, the Latin church has wondered far from the path Orthodoxy has been walking for 2000 years. Rome will not give up it's papal throne and to allow it would be sinnful.

[Matrona]

Matrona,

Have you ever read The Mountain of Silence by Kyriacos Markides?

It seems like most parents have this fear of monasticism. They want grandchildren not a monastic child of theirs.
Actually I was thinking about getting that for myself for Christmas! (I hardly ever have time to read Orthodox books: either I'm at home with the book police, or else I'm at school with my nose to the grindstone. I'm actually trying to dig into The Apostolic Fathers right now but it's going slow because of a last extra credit paper I'm trying to wrap up.) Maybe I can ask one of my friends if he has it.

Anyway read the book as it may give you some ideas on how to deal with your parents. Fr. Maximos almost got killed by some angry parents who felt that he had stolen their children, but somehow he was able to turn them around. It's amazing what faith and prayer can do. I think he fasted a lot for them also.
Whoa, Nelly!

I remember visiting a Trappist monastery in high school. The monks there would talk about how sometimes their parents flew off the handle or otherwise reacted oddly. One of them recalled how he'd told his parents he wanted to become a monk and his mother asked, "Well, what does that mean?" and his father said, "That means we'll never see him again."

This reminds me of the story of my patron saint. She was the daughter of wealthy people on an island in Greece. Her parents wanted her to marry but she ran away to live the monastic life in solitude. Her parents found her and forced her to come back home. She came back but still refused to marry, and seeing she was dead-set on being a nun, they allowed her to go back to her hermitage, provided she let one of her sisters bring food to her so that she wouldn't starve.

I try to keep the fast when I'm at home. I can't really help breaking it at dinner when we all eat together but I try to eat only fast-friendly things whenever I can prepare a meal for myself. Before I became Orthodox I was pretty well known for going through vegetarian phases so my parents don't think it's too unusual to see me eating a tofurkey and vegan-mayonnaise sandwich. ;)

[Orthodox Andrew]

Oh poor Andreas... :( I know just how you feel. Just concentrate on working out your own salvation and pray that they will recognize and perhaps even follow your example.

Thanks. I sure hope they do.:)


God Bless.

[MariaRegina]

http://www.oca.org/pages/events/2003/10.October/1028MiamiFL-Protection/index.html

Is anyone near this oca monastery in Florida?

[nyj]

Perhaps the East will convert the West!
Save your converting efforts for those who need it. We most certainly don't need it, nor want it.

[Orthodox Andrew]

Save your converting efforts for those who need it. We most certainly don't need it, nor want it.

:cry:





















LOL

[MariaRegina]

Perhaps the East will convert the West!

Sorry I didn't intend it that way. I was referring to a saintly Eastern Catholic Byzantine Bishop-Martyr who prophesized before he died that:

(1) the West would apologize to the East and

(2) the East would convert the West.

He was not accepted and was persecuted by the Latin-Rite Catholic bishops during World War II. Finally Rome had to speak out on his behalf. He forgave all those who wrongly attacked the Byzantine Catholics and was a model of sanctity. He was killed by the communists shortly after WWII while imprisoned for false charges; the communists tried to cover up his martyrdom because they didn't want him venerated as a martyr.

The Byzantine Catholic book that quoted his remark also said that all of his other prophesies came true. I think he was really referring to the idea of a deep metanoia or repentance, and it seems to be coming to fruition with the Catholics showing interest in the Jesus Prayer and Icons. Not only that, the Pope did apologize to the East when he went to Greece.

I don't know the name of this Holy Byzantine Bishop, but I personally honor him as a saint. Does anyone know his name? Has he perhaps been canonized yet?

repenting....

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth