Jesus or Pauls words? Whose do you follow?

[Lulav]

I got to thinking about this, that most of Christiandom follows more along what Paul said than what Jesus said. I always hear, 'Paul teaches this' or 'Paul said that', very rarely do you hear 'Jesus said this', or 'thus saith the L-RD Jesus'.

so I wondered then what would happen to those who have been taught to follow Pauls words?

This is important as it will decide our eternal state. Words are very important and sometimes who said them are tantamount to our salvation

From Matthew

12:36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.And he said in John

12:48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.So we are not to be judged by what Paul taught, but rather what Yeshua said.

[HaReb]

It is an interesting question, Lulav, especially as we have those who would set Y'shua against Sha'ul in some significant areas of Scripture.

As yet I have not found an answer that overcomes all the issues this raises... but I keep looking and asking!

[ContraMundum]

Is there even a contradiction that would mean one cannot heed both? The only reason Paul would even make it into the canon was because he agreed with Jesus and the Twelve in his letters in the first place. It is Peter who ratifies Paul, after all. The only reason in turn the Twelve are considered to be inspired is beacuse Jesus said it would be so. Thus, Jesus is the source of all ultimately.

[Lulav]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Yeshua even tell the Devil that man shall live on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of G-d? I don't think he said, G-d and _____________, did he?

Here's the thing, if What Yeshua spoke was the word of G-d then why does anyone need to add to it? Just because some things agree with what he says does not mean all should be followed does it?

Did Paul know more than all the apostles, whom Yeshua himself named as apostles from all his disciples, plus his own brother? These who were witnesses, eye witnesses, more than two or three even who could testify to who he was and that what he did fulfilled scripture? Did he not say that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established?

Here's a question I posed not long ago.

If you, as a pious Jew, Pharasitical, Torah obedient, disciple of Gamaliel, did not listen to your Rabbi (Gamaliel) to leave well enough alone, and were going against his warning that this movement may be of G-d and you find out you were fighting against G-d himself when you received your visit along the road to Damascus. What would you do in the sense of an eye for an eye, for all the saints you had helped to die because of their beliefs? ( and think of Stephen here, a most godly man whose whole speech touched not one cord within Sauls soul)

What would you do to make teshuvah for that?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I got to thinking about this, that most of Christiandom follows more along what Paul said than what Jesus said. I always hear, 'Paul teaches this' or 'Paul said that', very rarely do you hear 'Jesus said this', or 'thus saith the L-RD Jesus'.

so I wondered then what would happen to those who have been taught to follow Pauls words?

This is important as it will decide our eternal state. Words are very important and sometimes who said them are tantamount to our salvation

From Matthew

And he said in John

So we are not to be judged by what Paul taught, but rather what Yeshua said.
I totally joyfully willingly endure(already, today) all things and the loss of everything to be found true in Yeshua HaMaschiach in Yahweh's Grace and Yahweh's Plan.
Reading what Paul wrote I never found any contradiction with Yahweh's heart but instead from what Yahweh breathed through Paul found much from Yahweh lighted UP !
Men have corrupted what Paul wrote, just as they have corrupted Yahweh's Word so much
that Yeshua warned them sternly: "you have the keys to heaven but won't enter in; and you keep the little ones who are seeking the kingdom form entering" (sorry I didn't print the warning/judgment that Yeshua spoke - it ALWAAYS GETS DELTED ON THIS FORUM, EVERYWHERE)

[Kris10leigh]

I figured out just what I think of Paul yet. I haven't read his book yet and sketchy on his history. For instance, how long after Yeshua's death did Paul have his turn around?

But the reason I switched to a Messianic style of worship was to move away from the teachings of man, as much as possible. I believe Yeshua and Paul can not be compared.

[ContraMundum]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Yeshua even tell the Devil that man shall live on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of G-d? I don't think he said, G-d and _____________, did he?

Here's the thing, if What Yeshua spoke was the word of G-d then why does anyone need to add to it? Just because some things agree with what he says does not mean all should be followed does it?

Because, if you believe Yeshua is God, as we both do, then we will remember that when He sent the Holy Spirit to His disciples it was among other things to remind them of what He had taught them already- and many of the things He taught them were not written in the Gospels, as John says. Therefore, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Apostles were guaranteed infallible inspiration.

Did Paul know more than all the apostles, whom Yeshua himself named as apostles from all his disciples, plus his own brother? These who were witnesses, eye witnesses, more than two or three even who could testify to who he was and that what he did fulfilled scripture? Did he not say that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established?At the risk of repeating myself, I don't think it's a feasible argument to say Paul spoke alone and that his words were not witnessed to by the Apostles.

Here's a question I posed not long ago.

If you, as a pious Jew, Pharasitical, Torah obedient, disciple of Gamaliel, did not listen to your Rabbi (Gamaliel) to leave well enough alone, and were going against his warning that this movement may be of G-d and you find out you were fighting against G-d himself when you received your visit along the road to Damascus. What would you do in the sense of an eye for an eye, for all the saints you had helped to die because of their beliefs? ( and think of Stephen here, a most godly man whose whole speech touched not one cord within Sauls soul)

What would you do to make teshuvah for that?Paul, as Yeshua and the Torah taught that we are saved by grace- no amount of t'shuva can acquit a murderer. He could only repent and be a good Jewish Christian and let the blood of Yeshua cleanse Him- as all are/were cleansed even before the Cross. His repsonse to that salvation would have to be that of a man with much t'shuva to do.

Lulav,

If you're struggling with the concept of progressive revelation and therefore the Divine authority of the NT as a clear light on the Tanach, I've been there, believe me.

[Kris10leigh]

I totally joyfully willingly endure(already, today) all things and the loss of everything to be found true in Yeshua HaMaschiach in Yahweh's Grace and Yahweh's Plan.
Reading what Paul wrote I never found any contradiction with Yahweh's heart but instead from what Yahweh breathed through Paul found much from Yahweh lighted UP !
Men have corrupted what Paul wrote, just as they have corrupted Yahweh's Word so much
that Yeshua warned them sternly: "you have the keys to heaven but won't enter in; and you keep the little ones who are seeking the kingdom form entering" (sorry I didn't print the warning/judgment that Yeshua spoke - it ALWAAYS GETS DELTED ON THIS FORUM, EVERYWHERE)

You say that reading what Paul wrote you have never found a contradiction and also that it makes God's word light up for you. But then you also say that man has corrupted what Paul wrote. How do you reconcile the two? What are you reading? ;)

[ContraMundum]

You say that reading what Paul wrote you have never found a contradiction and also that it makes God's word light up for you. But then you also say that man has corrupted what Paul wrote. How do you reconcile the two? What are you reading? ;)

I think he's saying that Paul got it right but everyone else is misintepreting or corrupting Paul. Of course, logically speaking, this could only be100% correct if he himself has not misintepreted Paul! :)

Let's stick with what Peter, an insprired, doctrinally infallible Apostle said-

"2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."

Now, if the inspired, infallible Peter could describe some of Paul's words as hard to understand, then it's ok for us to find him hard too. :)

[Kris10leigh]

"2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."

I like that quote! :thumbsup:

[ElsanRandiMom]

problem is that this problem is not just a Paul/Jesus thing but a Jesus/anyone in leadership thing. People can't seem to differentiate between their spiritual leaders and Christ in alot of ways. (but this is just MHO)

[HaReb]

What I cannot work out - though ever so slightly off OP is this:

men (generic) confess to a RC priest, the priest confesses to his Bishop, Bishops confess to the Arch Bishops, the Arch Bishops confess to the Cardinals, the Cardinals confess to the Pope, the Pope confesses to....???

I may have got the 'ranks' a bit skewed, but this is another example of man's rules, I think. At least I cannot see it the words of Y'shua, Sha'ul or their contemporaries. Why cannot the man in the street confess direct to G_d and cut out the middle men?

[ElsanRandiMom]

What I cannot work out - though ever so slightly off OP is this:

men (generic) confess to a RC priest, the priest confesses to his Bishop, Bishops confess to the Arch Bishops, the Arch Bishops confess to the Cardinals, the Cardinals confess to the Pope, the Pope confesses to....???

I may have got the 'ranks' a bit skewed, but this is another example of man's rules, I think. At least I cannot see it the words of Y'shua, Sha'ul or their contemporaries. Why cannot the man in the street confess direct to G_d and cut out the middle men?
:thumbsup:

[Steve Petersen]

A few years ago, I did a survey of the epistles in the NT.

Paul uses the personal pronouns 'I', 'me', and 'my' three times as often as the other writers of epistles in the NT. He certainly had an ego.

[ElsanRandiMom]

A few years ago, I did a survey of the epistles in the NT.

Paul uses the personal pronouns 'I', 'me', and 'my' three times as often as the other writers of epistles in the NT. He certainly had an ego.
but doesn't he often state "this is from me not a directive from God" to clarify? I don't remember the other authors doing so, but I tend to really appreciate alot of Paul's writings so I may be biased.

[ozell]

I got to thinking about this, that most of Christiandom follows more along what Paul said than what Jesus said. I always hear, 'Paul teaches this' or 'Paul said that', very rarely do you hear 'Jesus said this', or 'thus saith the L-RD Jesus'.

so I wondered then what would happen to those who have been taught to follow Pauls words?

This is important as it will decide our eternal state. Words are very important and sometimes who said them are tantamount to our salvation

From Matthew

And he said in John

So we are not to be judged by what Paul taught, but rather what Yeshua said.

Jesus

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rv 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Paul
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Pauline followers
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

why?

2Pt 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17: Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18: But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


JESUS

[A_Pioneer]

Jesus

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rv 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Paul
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Pauline followers
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

why?

2Pt 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17: Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18: But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


JESUS

Yep!

My most favorite quote of Sha'ul "Be imitators of me as I imitate the Moshiach."

Too many people read too many commentators of Sha'uls work! Neither Yeshua nor Sha'ul created a new religion, men who followed men who strayed from the truth, created the new religion. Both(Yeshua & Shaul) upheld Torah!

[stone]

I got to thinking about this, that most of Christiandom follows more along what Paul said than what Jesus said.

not so


I always hear, 'Paul teaches this' or 'Paul said that', very rarely do you hear 'Jesus said this', or 'thus saith the L-RD Jesus'.


Perhaps you should search for a better church?


so I wondered then what would happen to those who have been taught to follow Pauls words?

Which words do you speak of?


This is important as it will decide our eternal state. Words are very important and sometimes who said them are tantamount to our salvation

What do you speak of here?


From Matthew

?


And he said in John

?


So we are not to be judged by what Paul taught, but rather what Yeshua said.

Paul did teach what was spoken by Yeshua.

[HaReb]

Originally Posted by Lulav http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=46542274#post46542274)
This is important as it will decide our eternal state. Words are very important and sometimes who said them are tantamount to our salvation


But surely, Lulav, this cannot be so. We are instructed in Scripture to test every word for ourselves. Yechezkiel 18 tells us that we are all responsible, each, for our own salvation. Sha'ul says we should work at our salvation with fear and trembling. Y'shua makes the same point with in the whole of his teaching.

Those who go through life blindly following what they are told by men (generic term!), without checking it against the whole of Scripture will fall on the last day becuse they will failed to discern the truth.

I always make the point with my congregation that if they think I have made a mistake, or got something wrong, they should come and tell me - provided they have checked it against Scripture and found evidence to the contrary. In other words I don't want the whingers who just can't accept the word of God to moan at me, but those who seriously check things and find I am in error are welcome to chat about anything I have said, so that we can both learn (and be corrected if necessary).

[ContraMundum]

What I cannot work out - though ever so slightly off OP is this:

men (generic) confess to a RC priest, the priest confesses to his Bishop, Bishops confess to the Arch Bishops, the Arch Bishops confess to the Cardinals, the Cardinals confess to the Pope, the Pope confesses to....???

It doesn't actually work that way but, the Pope confesses to a priest. The RCC teaches, as do all Apostolic churches, that anyone from any station can confess to a priest of any station.

I may have got the 'ranks' a bit skewed, but this is another example of man's rules, I think. At least I cannot see it the words of Y'shua, Sha'ul or their contemporaries. Why cannot the man in the street confess direct to G_d and cut out the middle men?The Torah commands us to confess to a priest in order that his sacrifice may be appropriate (Lev 5:5-6 etc.). David confessed to Nathan (2 Sam. 12:13) and sinners confessed to John the Baptiser (Matt 3:6)

The NT says that the Church has the authority, as did the Levitical priesthood and the prophets to announce God's forgiveness (Jn 20:22-23) and James taught "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working." Jas 5:16

This is not man made, but scriptural.

[Lulav]

What I cannot work out - though ever so slightly off OP is this:

men (generic) confess to a RC priest, the priest confesses to his Bishop, Bishops confess to the Arch Bishops, the Arch Bishops confess to the Cardinals, the Cardinals confess to the Pope, the Pope confesses to....???

I may have got the 'ranks' a bit skewed, but this is another example of man's rules, I think. At least I cannot see it the words of Y'shua, Sha'ul or their contemporaries. Why cannot the man in the street confess direct to G_d and cut out the middle men?Aren't we told ( by Yeshua's brother) to confess our sins to one another so we may be healed? :scratch:

[Lulav]

Originally Posted by Lulav
This is important as it will decide our eternal state. Words are very important and sometimes who said them are tantamount to our salvationBut surely, Lulav, this cannot be so. We are instructed in Scripture to test every word for ourselves. Yechezkiel 18 tells us that we are all responsible, each, for our own salvation. Sha'ul says we should work at our salvation with fear and trembling. Y'shua makes the same point with in the whole of his teaching.

Those who go through life blindly following what they are told by men (generic term!), without checking it against the whole of Scripture will fall on the last day becuse they will failed to discern the truth.

I always make the point with my congregation that if they think I have made a mistake, or got something wrong, they should come and tell me - provided they have checked it against Scripture and found evidence to the contrary. In other words I don't want the whingers who just can't accept the word of God to moan at me, but those who seriously check things and find I am in error are welcome to chat about anything I have said, so that we can both learn (and be corrected if necessary). It cannot be so?:scratch:

These words Of Yeshua I quoted

12:48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
You can argue with him if you want, I just believe him. ;)

HaReb, I was not speaking of just any man, but Yeshua. As far as any other man, I agree. When I teach I always tell them, don't take my word on it, look it up for yourself, read in context, verify with G-ds word itself. We are all fallable, all, including Paul.

It doesn't actually work that way but, the Pope confesses to a priest. The RCC teaches, as do all Apostolic churches, that anyone from any station can confess to a priest of any station.

The Torah commands us to confess to a priest in order that his sacrifice may be appropriate (Lev 5:5-6 etc.). David confessed to Nathan (2 Sam. 12:13) and sinners confessed to John the Baptiser (Matt 3:6)

The NT says that the Church has the authority, as did the Levitical priesthood and the prophets to announce God's forgiveness (Jn 20:22-23) and James taught "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working." Jas 5:16

This is not man made, but scriptural. I see you agree, I didn't read all the way down!

I have a question though, when does the church announce if you have been forgiven or not? I've heard of priests pronouncing ' Your sins are forgiven after you say some rote hail marys. I know that the Cohen HaGadol would announce on Yom Kippur if HaShem accepted the goat, but I don't think I ever heard when the church does this? do they have an equivelent Yom Kippur?

[ContraMundum]

I see you agree, I didn't read all the way down!

I have a question though, when does the church announce if you have been forgiven or not? I've heard of priests pronouncing ' Your sins are forgiven after you say some rote hail marys. I know that the Cohen HaGadol would announce on Yom Kippur if HaShem accepted the goat, but I don't think I ever heard when the church does this? do they have an equivelent Yom Kippur?

The church pronounces God's forgiveness in the Gospel immediately after confession. The RC idea that one must do penance afterward is based on the idea that although sins are forgiven, there is still damage done and things must be repaired. This is seen in the story of David's confession to Nathan. Although David was forgiven it still cost him his son's life. Doing acts of faith (which can be anything from prayers to good works of charity etc.) are meant to be ways of learning spiritual discipline and developing holy habits and repairing the damage done. It's similar to and based on the idea of tikkun.

[HaReb]

So then, what about personal confession to Y'shua? Yechezkiel tells us that we are all solely responsible for our sins - in line with the rest of Scripture. Where does it say anything about receiving forgiveness from a man or from an organisation? Our forgiveness comes through Y'shua and his death and resurrection - that's what it was all about, or am I reading the wrong book?

One of the claims against Y'shua was the very fact that he was pronouncing forgiveness, which only G_d can do.

What was Sha'ul speaking about when he said that we should face our salvation with fear and trembling, if not that we do not always bother to ask for forgiveness.

If a man or an organisation can pronounce forgiveness then why doesn't the Church, or the Pope (or Joe Bloggs the Pastor down the road, or the Rebbe) not absolve the whole human race in one go, and start again?

Ya'akov was speaking of the need to be accountable to each other - to confess your sins and the other person then leads you to repent before the L_rd and you are healed; the other person cannot forgive your sins.

[visionary]

Paul was a field worker and subjected himself to the Counsel in Jerusalem.

[ozell]

Jesus had to have Paul retaught.

Gal 1v15: But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16: To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18: Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19: But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
21: Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
22: And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
23: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
24: And they glorified God in me.

Gal 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2: And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

It took time for him to learn the right doctrine and not that nonsense the pharisees put forth.

The Lord has a angel teach him, it says he conferred not with flesh and blood.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul being a man makes mistakes, understood that he is flesh and is prone to death.

Paul taught the OT. CONCERNING Jesus

Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Jesus did not teach no one concerning Paul

again when man words superceded the words of Jesus

then this verse is in force in the churches

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[Lulav]

The church pronounces God's forgiveness in the Gospel immediately after confession. The RC idea that one must do penance afterward is based on the idea that although sins are forgiven, there is still damage done and things must be repaired. This is seen in the story of David's confession to Nathan. Although David was forgiven it still cost him his son's life. Doing acts of faith (which can be anything from prayers to good works of charity etc.) are meant to be ways of learning spiritual discipline and developing holy habits and repairing the damage done. It's similar to and based on the idea of tikkun. Sorry for being so dense but when does the church pronounce G-ds forgiveness? You say in the gospel, I don't quite get what you mean by that?:scratch:

do you mean that the penance, the hail marys are like a sacrifice for sin?

[Lulav]

So then, what about personal confession to Y'shua? Yechezkiel tells us that we are all solely responsible for our sins - in line with the rest of Scripture. Where does it say anything about receiving forgiveness from a man or from an organisation? Our forgiveness comes through Y'shua and his death and resurrection - that's what it was all about, or am I reading the wrong book?

One of the claims against Y'shua was the very fact that he was pronouncing forgiveness, which only G_d can do.

What was Sha'ul speaking about when he said that we should face our salvation with fear and trembling, if not that we do not always bother to ask for forgiveness.

If a man or an organisation can pronounce forgiveness then why doesn't the Church, or the Pope (or Joe Bloggs the Pastor down the road, or the Rebbe) not absolve the whole human race in one go, and start again?

Ya'akov was speaking of the need to be accountable to each other - to confess your sins and the other person then leads you to repent before the L_rd and you are healed; the other person cannot forgive your sins. Yes, nothing is hidden from G-d but when one sins they are blinded into thinking they can. Confession must be made, or true heart repentance can't be made, one remains in a state of denial. As Yeshua said, the truth shall set you free, and when we admit to one another our sins towards one another we are freed from that bondage of the knowledge of what we've done. Then we must turn from it. I don't believe in penance but I do believe in consequences, as it only teaches the great consequence of unforgiven sin.

We remember that our Father disciplines those he loves so that they will not remain in unforgiveness.

I don't think any man has the authority to forgive sins, I don't think that was transferred by Yeshua to anyone, if that were true then what would we need to go to the Father for, what would Yeshua have opened the way to him through the veil for? See what I mean?

Yes, he was accused many times of blasphemy because he forgave sins and brought healing through that forgiveness. They could accuse him of saying he forgave them, but they couldn't' do anything about the results, something they couldn't do, the healing.

[Lulav]

There are Apostles and there are disciples. A disciple is a follower, a student, these would be the ones who sat under a Rabbi, teacher. For example Andrew and John were disciples of John ben Zaccharia before Yeshua came along, then they left John and became Yeshua's disciples, they went from sitting under the teaching of John to sitting under the teaching of the ultimate Rabbi, THE Master, Yeshua.

Now Sha'ul, he sat under Gamaliel, he was his disciple, Gamaliel was his Rabbi, yet he did not even listen to him when it came to the Way.
Now an Apostle is one who is sent from another to bring his teachings or message to them. Also called an emissary, messenger or missionary in church language.The twelve that Yeshua choose were also part of an inner circle that sits privately under the Rabbi, they are more 'privileged' than the other disciples. Many times in the gospels we see that Yeshua speaks to the twelve 'privately' and gives them teachings he does not share with his other disciples. He choose the 12 out of the many disciples he had. In Matt 10 he sends them out to the lost sheep of Israel,and they come back rejoicing of the miracles they were able to do in his name.

The Twelve (12) were both disciples and Apostles.

Now that we know what a disciple is and what an Apostle is I will say that I believe that Paul was an Apostle, in the sense of a sent out one. But I am having trouble finding anywhere it says that he was a disciple of Yeshua. This is all I can find

9:26And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. it is interesting what the definition of 'assayed' is.

Also notice here he is still called Saul, after his vision and 'conversion'. so I have to wonder why the Apostles of Yeshua who knew him intimately did not believe he was a disciple of Yeshua. And why did Saul try to join himself to them if he was to be separate from them? If he was to replace Judah as some believe then why didn't the Spirit let any of the twelve in on this?

:scratch::confused:

It is interesting to note that Strongs doesn't include Saul in the definition of Apostle?


a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
of Barnabas
of Timothy and Silvanus
I wonder why?:scratch:

[HaReb]

so I have to wonder why the Apostles of Yeshua who knew him intimately did not believe he was a disciple of Yeshua


Because of what they had heard about him - would you accept someone who was like Sha'ul before the Damasek road thing, as a disciple of Y'shua, with no questions on your lips? They needed convincing that he was not trying to trick them. He needed to get their approval so that, having been shown to be accepted by the men, he could then go away to start his ministry. I do not see the problem here. Seems quite straight forward to me :)

[ContraMundum]

So then, what about personal confession to Y'shua? Yechezkiel tells us that we are all solely responsible for our sins - in line with the rest of Scripture. Where does it say anything about receiving forgiveness from a man or from an organisation? Our forgiveness comes through Y'shua and his death and resurrection - that's what it was all about, or am I reading the wrong book?

Wouldn't it be better to simply try to work out why those passages describing, commanding or bidding us to confess to others are there rather than debate the idea from a human point of view?

One of the claims against Y'shua was the very fact that he was pronouncing forgiveness, which only G_d can do.

The church's authority to forgive sins (binding and loosing as described in Jn 20:22ff) is based only on Christ's forgiveness. Therefore, the forgiveness of sins is based on the Gospel. If the Gospel promises forgiveness through confession and repentance, then the Church is bound to declare it.

Think about it in familiar terms- if you tell someone "believe in Jesus, confess your sins to Him and He will forgive you" are you not doing that exact same thing you don't think the rest of the Church should do when it hears the confession of a sinner?

If a man or an organisation can pronounce forgiveness then why doesn't the Church, or the Pope (or Joe Bloggs the Pastor down the road, or the Rebbe) not absolve the whole human race in one go, and start again?

...because the Gospel doesn't say that the Pope has that authority- the Popes have never said that! The church acts within the Gospel. Anything outside of that (eg. the medieval abuses) is not true absolution.

( I see you've been reading the 95 Theses- good!)

Ya'akov was speaking of the need to be accountable to each other - to confess your sins and the other person then leads you to repent before the L_rd and you are healed; the other person cannot forgive your sins.

That's your take,and that's reasonable- but the real passages we need to tackle first are all the ones preceeding it, from Genesis through to John. I don't think your interpretation goes against the grain, but I think there's more to it than that.

[ContraMundum]

Sorry for being so dense but when does the church pronounce G-ds forgiveness? You say in the gospel, I don't quite get what you mean by that?:scratch:

do you mean that the penance, the hail marys are like a sacrifice for sin?


Ah...no, I don't mean that. ;)

I've explained it briefly in the post above to HaReb. We say "you're forgiven" when the Gospel says they're forgiven.

[Lulav]

I think I get what you mean, but what about the binding and loosing?
So you can say they are forgiven by what the gospel says, what about not forgiven? How does that work? Can you tell someone that they are not forgiven and in what circumstance?
Did you read what talmidim wrote in Visionarys thread in the main forum about binding and loosing, I tend to follow that line, in that it was more spiritual than physical. I;m not sure if he explained it thoroughly but you can get the gist.

[ContraMundum]

I think I get what you mean, but what about the binding and loosing?
So you can say they are forgiven by what the gospel says, what about not forgiven? How does that work? Can you tell someone that they are not forgiven and in what circumstance?

Yes, you can tell someone they are not forgiven, but only within the Gospel.

This might help- the words our church uses in absolution is this: "Almighty God who has promised forgiveness to all who turn to Him in faith, pardon and set you free from your sins..." etc. Others use other words. The confession comes after the Gospel is proclaimed, the promises of Yeshua and the Gospel are spoken. In other words, it's just the Gospel message.

Obviously, if we see an unrepentant sinner we are obligated to preach repentance to them- this is "withholding" their sins.

id you read what talmidim wrote in Visionarys thread in the main forum about binding and loosing, I tend to follow that line, in that it was more spiritual than physical. I;m not sure if he explained it thoroughly but you can get the gist.I read the post. I say binding and loosing is indeed spiritual- no disagreement there. I do think there is also a physical binding and loosing on certain, limited matters- like settling disputes or halachic things, as per the Temple era Jewish authority (Matt 18).

[Lulav]

Thank you for explaining that I don't fully understand the whole, how to say, formality of it, but well enough from your explanation. :)

[Lulav]

I mainly came into this thread because I was reading my daily portion ( actually I try to do 18 at a time) and came across this and it puzzles me.

They were in Pisidian Antioch and teaching at the synagogue. there. A few Jews the following Shabbat started to harass them and this is what they ( Paul) said:

Acts 13:46 However, Sha'ul and Bar-Nabba answered boldly: "It was necessary that God's word be spoken first to you. But since you are rejecting it and are judging yourselves unworthy of eternal life - why, we're turning to the Goyim! 47 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+13:47&showtools=1) For that is what ADONAI has ordered us to do: 'I have set you as a light for the Goyim, to be for deliverance to the ends of the earth.' "

Isn't that title reserved for Yeshua? alone?

Isa 42
Isaiah 42:5-12 5 Thus saith God the L-RD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the L-RD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the L-RD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to anotherIsaiah 49

5 And now, saith the L-RD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the L-RD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. In Acts 13:47 Paul likens himself to this prophecy, that he is that light, that he is that salvation/deliverance. :eek::scratch:

Then in his own testimony before King Agrippa:

2 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.If you look carefully at the wording you will see when he is boasting at the synagogue he claims to be this light, and quotes right from Isaiah. But when speaking of Messiah it is an offhanded remark, not quoted from ha Nevi and very general in the wording.

There is a BIG difference between Being the light unto the gentiles and the redemption/salvation and showing light to the people and the gentiles.

[HaReb]

Sorry CM I have to disagree with your understanding of men pronouncing forgiveness for sins. We can TELL people that G_d will forgive but there is nothing in the whole of Scripture that gives anyone the authority to forgive the sin of another, except where that person's sin has affected you and you can (should) then forgive them for the hurt they have done - but that is NOT forgiveness from G_d.

So if you are saying that you and your Church take upon yourselves the absolute right, above and beyond anything Scripture may say, to stand in place of Y'shua and forgive sin you are, imo, sailing very close to heresy.

[ContraMundum]

Sorry CM I have to disagree with your understanding of men pronouncing forgiveness for sins. We can TELL people that G_d will forgive but there is nothing in the whole of Scripture that gives anyone the authority to forgive the sin of another, except where that person's sin has affected you and you can (should) then forgive them for the hurt they have done - but that is NOT forgiveness from G_d.

It's ok to disagree with me HaReb...but what do you make of the passages cited? Not just from the Tanach, but even in the NT, in particular Jn 20? What do you personally make of Nathan's pronouncement of forgiveness to David? Wouldn't this also come under this criticism? David's sin did not involve Nathan, yet Nathan said "The Lord forgives you; you will not die." (2 Sam 12:13)
.
Also- I'm not saying that church forgives in the stead of God- I'm saying the church pronounces God's forgiveness to sinners. I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with that.

Obviously, these passages cannot be understood without reading not only the laws relating to the Levitical priesthood but also and more importantly relating to Isaiah 22. The background of the Jewish Priesthood, the Beit Din and the continuous High Priesthood and Divinity of Yeshua is vital to understanding this. As a man well versed in the scriptures, would you not agree that these things must continue?

So if you are saying that you and your Church take upon yourselves the absolute right, above and beyond anything Scripture may say, to stand in place of Y'shua and forgive sin you are, imo, sailing very close to heresy.

No one has said that. I think I've explained it more than once above. We as a church take on that which Yeshua has given us- that is, the keys to the Kingdom to bind and loose (Matt 16:19 ; 18:18) and also the power of the Holy Spirit to bind and loose in regards to sin (John 20:22ff). One explanation I like is the idea that this is "a power of declaring with authority the Christian terms of pardon; whose sins are remitted and whose retained." (Wesley). Interesting that Paul binds in 1 Cor 5:1-5 and looses in 2 Cor. 2:6-11 in just this manner.

Anyway, it's a pretty big call to accuse the majority of the Christian church throughout the world and across all denominations "close to heretics" when the passages are quite straightforward and the practice traceable to Moses. I have a feeling you have misunderstood this and perhaps it is my fault for not being clearer.

[HaReb]

CM - thanks for your post. You appeared to be saying (and I think I can still detect it in your writings) that we are able to forgive, as of right. The quote you gave re David is Natan saying the Lord has taken away your sin - that is ascribing the function of forgiveness to the Lord, very clearly so; David had truly repented and Natan was able to assure him, in the light of this, that G_d had forgiven his sins - that is the role of the prophet. The prophet had not forgiven the sin - G_d had. The prophet was simply being a mouthpiece.

G_d can tell us to assure another that where we have seen true repentance, the Lord will take away the sin - that is a million miles from what you appeared to be saying previously - that we can, of our own free will, actually forgive sin (apparently without reference to G_d).

The opposite will be to say to someone that their sin is not forgiven by the L_rd because it has not been truly repented of. We cannot say categorically that G_d will NEVER forgive a sin, can we? G_d will, however, uphold what we have said in this latter example whilst the person refuses to truly repent. This is why in Mattit 18 Y'shua says that wheresoever two or three or gathered in my name, there I am in the midst. If we assure someone that G_d will forgive their sin (because of their repentance) then as long as we do that in righteousness, that is bound in heaven. If we assure someone that G_d has NOT forgiven their sin, then that, too, until they repent, will be bound in the heavenlies.

It may be matter of terminology between us but I found real problems in what you had said and I'm not sure we entirely agree, now. :)

Re heresy - I was saying that your understanding, as I read it, was close to heresy imo. That is a long way from accusing the Church, unless you speak exclusively for them :) I also claused it with 'if' giving you the benefit of the doubt.

If I feel the Church is living in heresy I will say so - I wouldn't be the first, or the last, to do that. Do you dispute that the Church can be in heresy?

[Lulav]

I see him just passing on the word of the L-RD to David as well.
CM - thanks for your post. You appeared to be saying (and I think I can still detect it in your writings) that we are able to forgive, as of right. The quote you gave re David is Natan saying the Lord has taken away your sin - that is ascribing the function of forgiveness to the Lord, very clearly so; David had truly repented and Natan was able to assure him, in the light of this, that G_d had forgiven his sins - that is the role of the prophet. The prophet had not forgiven the sin - G_d had. The prophet was simply being a mouthpiece.
this is how I saw what Nathan did, but wanted to give you two a chance to hash out this conundrum. Now it seems you have so do either of you have any comments regarding my post #36?

:)

[ContraMundum]

CM - thanks for your post. You appeared to be saying (and I think I can still detect it in your writings) that we are able to forgive, as of right. The quote you gave re David is Natan saying the Lord has taken away your sin - that is ascribing the function of forgiveness to the Lord, very clearly so; David had truly repented and Natan was able to assure him, in the light of this, that G_d had forgiven his sins - that is the role of the prophet. The prophet had not forgiven the sin - G_d had. The prophet was simply being a mouthpiece.

Exactly.

G_d can tell us to assure another that where we have seen true repentance, the Lord will take away the sin - that is a million miles from what you appeared to be saying previously - that we can, of our own free will, actually forgive sin (apparently without reference to G_d).

I need to be more careful in future.

The opposite will be to say to someone that their sin is not forgiven by the L_rd because it has not been truly repented of. We cannot say categorically that G_d will NEVER forgive a sin, can we? G_d will, however, uphold what we have said in this latter example whilst the person refuses to truly repent. This is why in Mattit 18 Y'shua says that wheresoever two or three or gathered in my name, there I am in the midst. If we assure someone that G_d will forgive their sin (because of their repentance) then as long as we do that in righteousness, that is bound in heaven. If we assure someone that G_d has NOT forgiven their sin, then that, too, until they repent, will be bound in the heavenlies.

Interestingly the Greek in John 20 is best translated as "will have been bound in Heaven" etc.

It may be matter of terminology between us but I found real problems in what you had said and I'm not sure we entirely agree, now. :)

LOL....that's cool. All in God's time.

Re heresy - I was saying that your understanding, as I read it, was close to heresy imo. That is a long way from accusing the Church, unless you speak exclusively for them :) I also claused it with 'if' giving you the benefit of the doubt.

If I feel the Church is living in heresy I will say so - I wouldn't be the first, or the last, to do that. Do you dispute that the Church can be in heresy?

I would never dispute that my church could fall into heresy if it departed from classical Christian orthodoxy (I define that in the context of ancient ecumenical consensus). In fact, elements within our tradition have fallen into outright heresy and caused divisions- as I'm sure you are well aware. However, if we stick to the universally accepted dogmas of the first Christians and their most immediate successors, we can't go far wrong. But that's just my take on things. :)

[AnneSally]

So we are not to be judged by what Paul taught, but rather what Yeshua said.


Wow, that's a very profound insight Lulav, thanks for sharing.:thumbsup:

[AnneSally]

It is an interesting question, Lulav, especially as we have those who would set Y'shua against Sha'ul in some significant areas of Scripture.




Yes, that is something I keep coming up against as well....

[AnneSally]

Reading what Paul wrote I never found any contradiction with Yahweh's heart but instead from what Yahweh breathed through Paul found much from Yahweh lighted UP ! Men have corrupted what Paul wrote,


Yes, exactly! I never found any contradiction between them either until I came upon those who try to pit Paul's word over Jesus....I am going to have to ignore such types in the future.....

[HaReb]

CM thanks for post - maybe in Y'shua we see eye to eye more than seemed possible at first. PTL :)

[WailingWall]

I got to thinking about this, that most of Christiandom follows more along what Paul said than what Jesus said. I always hear, 'Paul teaches this' or 'Paul said that', very rarely do you hear 'Jesus said this', or 'thus saith the L-RD Jesus'.

so I wondered then what would happen to those who have been taught to follow Pauls words?


What am i missing? Where do pauls words contradict what Jesus said?

PS- Happy sabbath day to all

[SGM4HIM]

What is even stranger is believers using Paul to contradict Paul, especially when discussing the "Law"

[GeorgeTwo]

I got to thinking about this, that most of Christiandom follows more along what Paul said than what Jesus said. I always hear, 'Paul teaches this' or 'Paul said that', very rarely do you hear 'Jesus said this', or 'thus saith the L-RD Jesus'.

Really? "Most of Christiandom" follows more along what Paul said than what Jesus said???



so I wondered then what would happen to those who have been taught to follow Pauls words?

Paul was a follower of Jesus. Some of Paul's thoughts are hard to follow unless you know who he was speaking to and what issues he was addressing.

Perhaps we show look at some of the similarities between what Paul taught and what Jesus taught?

100 Similarities between the Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul

1. Jesus is the Messiah or Christ
JESUS: He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God". And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven". (Matthew 16:15-17)

PAUL: Paul was occupied with proclaiming the word, testifying to the Jews that the Messiah was Jesus. (Acts 18:5)

2. Jesus is the Son of God
JESUS: All of them asked, "Are you, then, the Son of God?" He said to them, "You say that I am". Then they said, "What further testimony do we need? We have heard it ourselves from his own lips!" (Luke 22:70-71)

PAUL: Immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God". (Acts 9:20)

3. Jesus is Lord
JESUS: You call me Teacher and Lord - and you are right, for that is what I am. (John 13:13)

PAUL: There is... one Lord, Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

4. Jesus is God
JESUS: Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe". (John 20:28-29)

PAUL: From them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. (Romans 9:5)

5. Jesus is Human
JESUS: Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing what Abraham did, but now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God". (John 8:39-40)

PAUL: There is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human. (1 Timothy 2:5)

6. Jesus was born of a woman
JESUS: The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High (Luke 1:30-32)

PAUL: When the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman. (Galatians 4:4)
7. God sent Jesus
JESUS: I cam from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own, but he sent me. (John 8:42)

PAUL: For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son. (Romans 8:3)

8. Jesus is the way to the Father
JESUS: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

PAUL: Through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. (Ephesians 2:18)

9. Jesus is Light
JESUS: Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world". (John 8:12)

PAUL: What fellowship is there between light and darkness? What agreement does Christ have with Beliar? (2 Corinthians 6:14-15)

10. Jesus is life
JESUS: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. (John 14:6)

PAUL: When Christ who is your life is revealed. (Colossians 3:4)

11. Jesus is the beginning
JESUS: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (Revelation 22:13)

PAUL: He is the beginning. (Colossians 1:18)

12. Jesus is first
JESUS: I am the first and the last, and the living one. I was dead, and see, I am alive for ever and ever. (Revelation 1:17-18)

PAUL: He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. (Colossians 1:18)

13. Jesus is a descendent of David
JESUS: The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. (Luke 1:30-32)

PAUL: Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, a descendant of David. (2 Timothy 2:8)

14. Jesus is the Bridegroom
JESUS: Now John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and people came and said to him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?" Jesus said to them, "The wedding-guests cannot fast while the bridegroom is with them, can they? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast". (Mark 2:18-19)

PAUL: I promised you in marriage to one husband, to present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:2)

15. Jesus is King
JESUS: Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here". Pilate asked him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king". (John 18:36-37)

PAUL: No fornicator or impure person, or one who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ. (Ephesians 5:5)

16. Jesus descended from heaven
JESUS: No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. (John 3:13)

PAUL: When it says, "He ascended", what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (Ephesians 4:9)

17. Jesus is Saviour
JESUS: God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:17)

PAUL: The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. (1 Timothy 1:15)

18. Jesus is the truth
JESUS: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. (John 14:6)

PAUL: Surely you have heard about him and were taught in him, as truth is in Jesus. (Ephesians 4:21)

19. Jesus was poor
JESUS: Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head". (Matthew 8:20)

PAUL: You know the generous act of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich. (2 Corinthians 8:9)

20. The glory of God shines in the face of Jesus
JESUS: Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and his brother John and led them up a high mountain, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white. (Matthew 17:1-2)

PAUL: It is the God who said, "Let light shine out of darkness", who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:6)

21. Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper
JESUS: While they were eating, he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body". Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, and all of them drank from it. He said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many". (Mark 14:22-24)

PAUL: I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me". (1 Corinthians 11:23-25)

22. Jesus was betrayed
JESUS: Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me; one who is eating with me... The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" (Mark 14:18, 21)

PAUL: I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed. (1 Corinthians 11:23)

23. Jesus testified before Pontius Pilate
JESUS: Then Pilate entered the headquarters again, summoned Jesus, and asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" Jesus answered, "Do you ask this on your own, or did others tell you about me?" Pilate replied, "I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me. What have you done?" Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here". Pilate asked him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice". (John 18:33-37)

PAUL: In the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession. (1 Timothy 6:13)

24. Jesus suffered
JESUS: Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and undergo great suffering. (Matthew 16:21)

PAUL: Just as the sufferings of Christ are abundant for us. (2 Corinthians 1:5)

25. Jesus died
JESUS: Then Jesus cried out and breathed his last. (Mark 15:37)

PAUL: We believe that Jesus died. (1 Thessalonians 4:14)

26. Jesus was buried
JESUS: Joseph brought a linen cloth, and taking down the body, wrapped it in the linen cloth, and laid it in a tomb that had been hewn out of the rock. He then rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. (Mark 15:46)

PAUL: We have been buried with him by baptism. (Romans 6:4)

27. Jesus rose from the dead on the third day
JESUS: Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up"... He was speaking of the temple of his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this. (John 2:19, 22)

PAUL: Christ did for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day. (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)

28. Jesus ascended
JESUS: While he was blessing them, he withdrew from them and was carried up into heaven. (Luke 24:51)

PAUL: He who descended is the same one who ascended far above all the heavens. (Ephesians 4:10)

29. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father
JESUS: The high priest asked him, "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?" Jesus said, "I am; and 'you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power'". (Mark 14:61-62)

PAUL: God put this power to work in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand. (Ephesians 1:20)

Read the other 70 here:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Wales/jesus_paul.htm


Read an additional 33 here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Wales/jesus_paul_more.htm


In my opinion Paul has been given a bum rap.

[2ducklow]

it's all the word of God, whether it is a direct quote of something Jesus said, or something Paul said to the churches. All are scripture. People sometimes say Paul said this or that to get around doing what he said to do, Thus they relegate Pauls words to Paul and not scripture, and thus releive themselves of doing what they find unpalatable . But it is the word of God comeing through the agency of Paul. So they are not off the hook.

[visionary]

Really? "Most of Christiandom" follows more along what Paul said than what Jesus said???



Paul was a follower of Jesus. Some of Paul's thoughts are hard to follow unless you know who he was speaking to and what issues he was addressing.

Perhaps we show look at some of the similarities between what Paul taught and what Jesus taught?
..........In my opinion Paul has been given a bum rap.Then you hear what Paul said regarding the Lord's Laws pitted against what Yeshua said as a before the cross statement and after the cross statement.