One sample of why I think the Bible is not inerrant

[Kris10leigh]

Exodus 21:20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.


I came across this passage last night and it just screamed to me of man's hand. In context with the rest of the text, these are the laws which speak of killing. If a man kills another man then let the killed be killed also, and so on. It even speaks of killing animals and how it should be handled. But when it comes to this passage, it says that if a man kills his slave, then the master should be PUNISHED. Not killed; punished. And if that slave should live a day or two (!) he shall not be punished because after all, the slave is the owner's property.

I can't accept that God would make such a law. I know it must be read in context of the culture, but to me it just wreaks of politics!

I don't feel this passage is of God. Thoughts?

[kivi]

I came across this passage last night and it just screamed to me of man's hand. In context with the rest of the text, these are the laws which speak of killing. If a man kills another man then let the killed be killed also, and so on. It even speaks of killing animals and how it should be handled. But when it comes to this passage, it says that if a man kills his slave, then the master should be PUNISHED. Not killed; punished. And if that slave should live a day or two (!) he shall not be punished because after all, the slave is the owner's property.

I can't accept that God would make such a law. I know it must be read in context of the culture, but to me it just wreaks of politics!

I don't feel this passage is of God. Thoughts?
If I might suggest, kris, the problem is much more than your own personal tastes in the matter, your own personal morality. There are many occasions in Torah when is seems that the Mitzvah under consideration is 'out-outrageous' and if they would just listen to me, how much better things would turn out [I am being sarcasitic here].

But I know that Torah is not written just for me, but written for the construction and maintainance of an entire Nation and culture and religion and society, of which I am part of, not in control of. So, the question is whether I have enough humility to fit myself into that Nation or am I so arrogant that I expect the Nation to fit itself into me? Do I have enough humility to fit myself into G-d's plan and not demand that G-d fit Himself into mine.

It should also be noted that the slaves, as referred to in the Torah in this particular regard, are criminals who are under going rehabilitation with a righteous and pious family especially picked by the Bas Din [Court] while working off their debts to the persons they injured, stole from, etc. It is assumed that the pious person who administered the punishment was well within the boundaries of Jewish Law. However, no crime that the slave/prisoner committed while under sentence would allow the pious person responsible for his rehabilitation to kill him. So, the limit on the use of physical punishment on the part of the pious person.

[ContraMundum]

Well kris, the Torah also tells us of a man put to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. There's a lot of vile cruelty and blood in the Tanach. But, most good Rabbis will tell you that these things are sealed and not for us to pursue or try to imitate- simply put, currently the Rabbinical Jewish religion does not claim to be innerant in its judgment on human sins enough to put people to death as the Torah commands. In other words, they can't do it even though they know it is commanded. (One would need to read about this in the Talmud, but that's for another time). It should be noted that in history very few were put to death by the Jewish authority.

Christianity, thank God, puts these things in perspective, gives us a way out and gives us a cure as well.

[HaReb]

The Law remains, of that I am convinced. Its application however should be carried out according to the so-called Golden Rule - do only to others as you would have them do to you (or similar wording).

That doesn't give us a cop out from judging others but requires us to judge in righteousness - ie the judgement we make must be able to stand if Y'shua were to be here with us, physically (Matt 18:20 - which has nothing to do with small numbers at worship etc!!). Some say we should not judge or we shall be judged - so what, we shall be judged regardless, why should we be worried about that if we are folllowers of, and believers in, Y'shua! The point being made is that if we judge in an unrighteous manner, we will be judged according to the way we have judged others - in a wordly sense, not a righteous sense. The opposite is also true - if we judge in a righteous manner we, too, will be judged in a righteous manner. It is not about the fact of judging as such - it's about the intent in your heart when you do judge!!

Before there is a cry from folk that we cannot/must not judge in a righteous manner because we are not righteous - remember not only Mattityahu but also 2 Cor. 5:21 'so that in him we might become the righteousness of G_d". Our mandate is clear - to judge in righteousness, knowing that if we bear false witness we shall suffer the punishment due to the person we have, ourselves, wrongly judged.

[Kris10leigh]

What I take from this is that if Yeshua were here today, he'd probably say, "You fools, you got it wrong. Don't kill these "slaves" but instead...."

I didn't know the part about the slaves being more like indentured servants or prisoners, Kivi, thank you. That sheds a bit more light on it.

I just take up the passages for discussion as I come across them, gathering bits of gems for you all as I do. ;)

[ElsanRandiMom]

more realistically the dead sea scrolls show that the word is freely changed in some cases and that scribes felt they had freedom to do this in some cases (mostly to omit things)....
the bible is so beneficial, but I think to hold that every word, phrase and punctuation has stayed the same forever is flawed because it is touched by man

[kivi]

What I take from this is that if Yeshua were here today, he'd probably say, "You fools, you got it wrong. Don't kill these "slaves" but instead...."

I didn't know the part about the slaves being more like indentured servants or prisoners, Kivi, thank you. That sheds a bit more light on it.

I just take up the passages for discussion as I come across them, gathering bits of gems for you all as I do. ;)
In most cases in the Jewish criminal justice system, punishment was not imprisonment, there just were not long term jails [which are very expensive and teach no useful form of rehaibilitation]. In most cases, things that we would put people in prison for were dealt with through fines or corporal punishment. Since it is assumed that the only reason a Jew would commit such a crime is from dire poverty, the fine was way beyond the Jewish criminal's ability to pay. Therefore, the following system was in play. A pious Jewish family who were willing, as a great mitzvah, to help such unfortunates would take responsiblity for the fine and pay it and the Jewish criminal would 'work off' the debt that the pious Jewish family had undertaken. There were many rules concerning what the pious Jewish family could or could not do. Of course, there was always the 7 year limit on such conditions. The Jewish criminal had less mitzvahs to do because they were primarily responsible to the pious Jewish family who had taken them in, especially mitzvahs with time constraints; if there was only one pillow or a limited amount of food, etc, the Jewish criminal had 1st choice; corporal punishment, another common form of punishment found in Torah, had severe limits such that if the bruise caused by the pious Jewish family was severe the Jewish criminal was automatically freed; at the end of the period of time/sentence/pay off the debt, the Jewish criminal was given enough resources/money/etc to start a new life.

The reason I bring this up is because without detailed understanding of the total social order of the Torah, it is impossible to understand the brief and often seemingly confusing and contradictory commandments and how they truly all fit together to create a complete spiritually, economically, politically, militarily, socially functioning nation.

[ChavaK]

In most cases in the Jewish criminal justice system, punishment was not imprisonment, there just were not long term jails [which are very expensive and teach no useful form of rehaibilitation]. In most cases, things that we would put people in prison for were dealt with through fines or corporal punishment. Since it is assumed that the only reason a Jew would commit such a crime is from dire poverty, the fine was way beyond the Jewish criminal's ability to pay. Therefore, the following system was in play. A pious Jewish family who were willing, as a great mitzvah, to help such unfortunates would take responsiblity for the fine and pay it and the Jewish criminal would 'work off' the debt that the pious Jewish family had undertaken. There were many rules concerning what the pious Jewish family could or could not do. Of course, there was always the 7 year limit on such conditions. The Jewish criminal had less mitzvahs to do because they were primarily responsible to the pious Jewish family who had taken them in, especially mitzvahs with time constraints; if there was only one pillow or a limited amount of food, etc, the Jewish criminal had 1st choice; corporal punishment, another common form of punishment found in Torah, had severe limits such that if the bruise caused by the pious Jewish family was severe the Jewish criminal was automatically freed; at the end of the period of time/sentence/pay off the debt, the Jewish criminal was given enough resources/money/etc to start a new life.

The reason I bring this up is because without detailed understanding of the total social order of the Torah, it is impossible to understand the brief and often seemingly confusing and contradictory commandments and how they truly all fit together to create a complete spiritually, economically, politically, militarily, socially functioning nation.

:thumbsup:
Great post and explanation. However, my understanding was
that not just "criminals" became indentured servants, but
people who owed debts to others. This allowed them the
dignity of working to pay off their debts, having a home and
food provided for them, as well as giving benefit to whom
the money is owed.

[Lulav]

The Law remains, of that I am convinced. Its application however should be carried out according to the so-called Golden Rule - do only to others as you would have them do to you (or similar wording).

That doesn't give us a cop out from judging others but requires us to judge in righteousness - ie the judgement we make must be able to stand if Y'shua were to be here with us, physically (Matt 18:20 - which has nothing to do with small numbers at worship etc!!). Some say we should not judge or we shall be judged - so what, we shall be judged regardless, why should we be worried about that if we are folllowers of, and believers in, Y'shua! The point being made is that if we judge in an unrighteous manner, we will be judged according to the way we have judged others - in a wordly sense, not a righteous sense. The opposite is also true - if we judge in a righteous manner we, too, will be judged in a righteous manner. It is not about the fact of judging as such - it's about the intent in your heart when you do judge!!

Before there is a cry from folk that we cannot/must not judge in a righteous manner because we are not righteous - remember not only Mattityahu but also 2 Cor. 5:21 'so that in him we might become the righteousness of G_d". Our mandate is clear - to judge in righteousness, knowing that if we bear false witness we shall suffer the punishment due to the person we have, ourselves, wrongly judged. i think it's to be cautious how we judge for with the same measure we also shall be judged, it falls back into the same rule you stated, the golden or royal rule, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, judge another with the same criteria you want to be judged with. This brings us directly to mercy, something Hashem said he would rather have than sacrifices any time.

[Lulav]

In most cases in the Jewish criminal justice system, punishment was not imprisonment, there just were not long term jails [which are very expensive and teach no useful form of rehaibilitation]. In most cases, things that we would put people in prison for were dealt with through fines or corporal punishment. Since it is assumed that the only reason a Jew would commit such a crime is from dire poverty, the fine was way beyond the Jewish criminal's ability to pay. Therefore, the following system was in play. A pious Jewish family who were willing, as a great mitzvah, to help such unfortunates would take responsiblity for the fine and pay it and the Jewish criminal would 'work off' the debt that the pious Jewish family had undertaken. There were many rules concerning what the pious Jewish family could or could not do. Of course, there was always the 7 year limit on such conditions. The Jewish criminal had less mitzvahs to do because they were primarily responsible to the pious Jewish family who had taken them in, especially mitzvahs with time constraints; if there was only one pillow or a limited amount of food, etc, the Jewish criminal had 1st choice; corporal punishment, another common form of punishment found in Torah, had severe limits such that if the bruise caused by the pious Jewish family was severe the Jewish criminal was automatically freed; at the end of the period of time/sentence/pay off the debt, the Jewish criminal was given enough resources/money/etc to start a new life.

The reason I bring this up is because without detailed understanding of the total social order of the Torah, it is impossible to understand the brief and often seemingly confusing and contradictory commandments and how they truly all fit together to create a complete spiritually, economically, politically, militarily, socially functioning nation.
Yes, it was all about governing a nation, and keeping it holy. Many of the laws were in reguard to keeping the whole nation holy as a witness to the rest of the heathen world.

[kivi]

:thumbsup:
Great post and explanation. However, my understanding was
that not just "criminals" became indentured servants, but
people who owed debts to others. This allowed them the
dignity of working to pay off their debts, having a home and
food provided for them, as well as giving benefit to whom
the money is owed.
You are correct. It was assumed that only extreme poverty would force a Jew into criminal behavior. So, the Jewish criminal was the extreme example of the Jewish debtor. The Torah economic system had very little to do with capitalism as we understand it. After all, no land could be permanently sold/alienated to another, all that could be done is 49 year leases. Geographic monopolies were protected. Certain tribes were forbidden to own land and had to rely on taxation for income. Indentured servants were there for spiritual reasons. Poverty, in a purely spiritual system, is not the result of bad business judgement but rather because the Jew is being punished by G-d for bad behavior/breaking or not doing a mitzvah. After all, the Torah is very clear that abundant living in the Land of Israel for the Jews is the direct result of true mitzvah living.

[Kris10leigh]

more realistically the dead sea scrolls show that the word is freely changed in some cases and that scribes felt they had freedom to do this in some cases (mostly to omit things)....
the bible is so beneficial, but I think to hold that every word, phrase and punctuation has stayed the same forever is flawed because it is touched by man

Multi-quotes appears to be messed up, so I'll go the single quote route.

I agree with you. I am still of this opinion, but am not closed to the fact. So as I read, I'll bring things to the table because it really does seem to make more sense from others' perspectives.

[Kris10leigh]

The reason I bring this up is because without detailed understanding of the total social order of the Torah, it is impossible to understand the brief and often seemingly confusing and contradictory commandments and how they truly all fit together to create a complete spiritually, economically, politically, militarily, socially functioning nation.
And that is exactly why I brought it up. :thumbsup:

Thank you so much!

[ElsanRandiMom]

kivi made an interesting point and this is the main reason why i come ask questions because i feel christians cannot understand the whys and wherefores of the bible without some history and understanding of Judaism

[ChavaK]

You are correct. It was assumed that only extreme poverty would force a Jew into criminal behavior. So, the Jewish criminal was the extreme example of the Jewish debtor. The Torah economic system had very little to do with capitalism as we understand it. After all, no land could be permanently sold/alienated to another, all that could be done is 49 year leases. Geographic monopolies were protected. Certain tribes were forbidden to own land and had to rely on taxation for income. Indentured servants were there for spiritual reasons. Poverty, in a purely spiritual system, is not the result of bad business judgement but rather because the Jew is being punished by G-d for bad behavior/breaking or not doing a mitzvah. After all, the Torah is very clear that abundant living in the Land of Israel for the Jews is the direct result of true mitzvah living.

Exactly, but I think we need to differentiate
between a "criminal" and "debtor". A person
in debt does not always turn to crime.

[kivi]

Exactly, but I think we need to differentiate
between a "criminal" and "debtor". A person
in debt does not always turn to crime.
True, a person who is a debtor does not always turn to crime, however, it is assumed that only a debtor could turn to crime and that a Jew not poor or in debt would never turn to crime, especially since the poverty in question would be a direct result of G-d's punishment for bad behavior.

Not all persons being punished by G-d for bad behavior are debtors but all debtors are persons being punished by G-d for bad behavior. Not all debtors are criminals but all criminals are debtors.

[ChavaK]

True, a person who is a debtor does not always turn to crime, however, it is assumed that only a debtor could turn to crime and that a Jew not poor or in debt would never turn to crime

Not all debtors are criminals but all criminals are debtors.

:thumbsup: Agreed!

[stone]

I came across this passage last night and it just screamed to me of man's hand. In context with the rest of the text, these are the laws which speak of killing. If a man kills another man then let the killed be killed also, and so on. It even speaks of killing animals and how it should be handled. But when it comes to this passage, it says that if a man kills his slave, then the master should be PUNISHED. Not killed; punished. And if that slave should live a day or two (!) he shall not be punished because after all, the slave is the owner's property.

I can't accept that God would make such a law. I know it must be read in context of the culture, but to me it just wreaks of politics!

I don't feel this passage is of God. Thoughts?

You could add to your unacceptance much more than a simple beating of a slave. There is also the laws of war.

[HaReb]

the main reason why i come ask questions because i feel christians cannot understand the whys and wherefores of the bible without some history and understanding of Judaism


Just what I have been saying for years! Too many Christians have zero understanding of the links between what the 'earlier' and 'latter' testaments say. It is great to be able to open their eyes and see them become aware, for the first time, ever, of some of the links that are embedded in the Scriptures. Their lack of knowledge is usually down to poor teaching by their leaders OR because of Replacement Theology OR because they have been taught that the 'earlier' testament no longer applies!

[ContraMundum]

The reason I bring this up is because without detailed understanding of the total social order of the Torah, it is impossible to understand the brief and often seemingly confusing and contradictory commandments and how they truly all fit together to create a complete spiritually, economically, politically, militarily, socially functioning nation.

Most people in this forum are rather well-informed on things such as this. In fact, most of what you have shared is a well-worn path that the forum often travels. Still, it's good to see your words here and I hope to continue to post.

What puzzles many is why many people following Rabbinical Judaism don't seem to understand that Christianity is not based on modern-day Rabbinic Judaism, but 1st Century Judaism. They are quite different in many respects. This is why some Christians tend to disregard much of what Rabbinic Judaism teaches, especially in its interpretation of certain texts, which they would argue are rather narrowed or even novel interpretations in comparison with the Rabbis of the Temple era.

[ElsanRandiMom]

Just what I have been saying for years! Too many Christians have zero understanding of the links between what the 'earlier' and 'latter' testaments say. It is great to be able to open their eyes and see them become aware, for the first time, ever, of some of the links that are embedded in the Scriptures. Their lack of knowledge is usually down to poor teaching by their leaders OR because of Replacement Theology OR because they have been taught that the 'earlier' testament no longer applies!
the church bodies I grew up in were guilty of all of the above.... it's sad

[stone]

Faith in Jesus Christ is what will save you.

[ContraMundum]

Just what I have been saying for years! Too many Christians have zero understanding of the links between what the 'earlier' and 'latter' testaments say. It is great to be able to open their eyes and see them become aware, for the first time, ever, of some of the links that are embedded in the Scriptures. Their lack of knowledge is usually down to poor teaching by their leaders OR because of Replacement Theology OR because they have been taught that the 'earlier' testament no longer applies!

I've been lucky to have been among Christians that don't have so many bad ideas.

[Lulav]

Then you are blessed indeed! Many others are not though.

[ContraMundum]

Then you are blessed indeed! Many others are not though.

Yes, I'm beginning to see that! We have lots of work ahead.

[kivi]

I find your statement to be interesting. Current Rabbinic Judaism [also called Orthodox or Observant] considers itself in direct inheritance/tradition/descent from Pharisaic Judaism [the 'orthodoxy' of the 1st Century CE]. In fact, the phrase 'Torah True Tradition' refers to the Moses/Joshua/Elders/Judges/Prophets/Men of the Great Assembly/Pairs/Pharisaic/Talmudic/Orthodox Rabbinic Tradition. Yet, you make a distinction. Care to elaborate?

[ContraMundum]

I find your statement to be interesting. Current Rabbinic Judaism [also called Orthodox or Observant] considers itself in direct inheritance/tradition/descent from Pharisaic Judaism [the 'orthodoxy' of the 1st Century CE]. In fact, the phrase 'Torah True Tradition' refers to the Moses/Joshua/Elders/Judges/Prophets/Men of the Great Assembly/Pairs/Pharisaic/Talmudic/Orthodox Rabbinic Tradition. Yet, you make a distinction. Care to elaborate?

Who or what comment is this addressed to?

[kivi]

Dear ContraMundum http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/sup.jpg (http://christianforums.com/member.php?u=116449) http://img.christianforums.com/style/statusicon/user_offline.gif
it was your post that I was refering to, post #20:


"
Originally Posted by kivi http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=46559954#post46559954) The reason I bring this up is because without detailed understanding of the total social order of the Torah, it is impossible to understand the brief and often seemingly confusing and contradictory commandments and how they truly all fit together to create a complete spiritually, economically, politically, militarily, socially functioning nation.

Most people in this forum are rather well-informed on things such as this. In fact, most of what you have shared is a well-worn path that the forum often travels. Still, it's good to see your words here and I hope to continue to post.

What puzzles many is why many people following Rabbinical Judaism don't seem to understand that Christianity is not based on modern-day Rabbinic Judaism, but 1st Century Judaism. They are quite different in many respects. This is why some Christians tend to disregard much of what Rabbinic Judaism teaches, especially in its interpretation of certain texts, which they would argue are rather narrowed or even novel interpretations in comparison with the Rabbis of the Temple era."

[ContraMundum]

I find your statement to be interesting. Current Rabbinic Judaism [also called Orthodox or Observant] considers itself in direct inheritance/tradition/descent from Pharisaic Judaism [the 'orthodoxy' of the 1st Century CE]. In fact, the phrase 'Torah True Tradition' refers to the Moses/Joshua/Elders/Judges/Prophets/Men of the Great Assembly/Pairs/Pharisaic/Talmudic/Orthodox Rabbinic Tradition. Yet, you make a distinction. Care to elaborate?


OK...well, I think I know what you're asking- I would comment that current Rabbinic Judaism (I think "Observant" is a misnomer- huge portions of the Torah are no longer observed nor can they be, and I doubt very much they ever will be again) does in fact claim to be descended from Pharisaic Judaism- and it is. However, it is not the only religion to claim this. Christianity claims to be descended from yet one better than Jewish parties of the era, whether the Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots and Essenes- Christianity still clearly descends from that one myriad pool of 1st C Judaic thought, and orthodox Christianity teaches that it is the fulfillment of the Torah, answering the confused questions of the ancient factions.

The Second Temple era had many varying schools, the Pharisees merely one of them- albeit the one that has survived well (though hardly intact- considering some of what is accepted in Judaism now is completely foreign to the sages of that era). The fact that all of Rabbinic Judaism- Reform, Reconstructionist, Chasidic claim to be from the Pharisees ultimately just goes to show that religious diversity is part and parcel of the Jewish question. I think it's a pretty wild claim to say that one group has the only genuine handle on "Torah True Tradition", as in my experience even Orthodox groups who dissagree with each other all claim that they are the only ones who have it right. I've lived it.

[kivi]

ContraMundum says: "OK...well, I think I know what you're asking- I would comment that current Rabbinic Judaism (I think "Observant" is a misnomer- huge portions of the Torah are no longer observed nor can they be, and I doubt very much they ever will be again) does in fact claim to be descended from Pharisaic Judaism- and it is."

kivi says: "I would agree:thumbsup:. 'Observant' as a title or a description is pretty lame, as most 'Observant' Jews would agree, as is the term 'Orthodox'. It is just the best we have floating around when trying to make a distinction between us and the other flavors: Reform, Conservative, Reconstruction. However,we are fully committed that the Temple will be re-built, etc etc etc [got to be careful and not step over the RV rules]. It is the promise of all the exile prophets and we hold by them, more than ever.:clap:"

CM says: "However, it is not the only religion to claim this. Christianity claims to be descended from yet one better than Jewish parties of the era, whether the Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots and Essenes-"

kivi: "It seems to me, at a purely historic/academic level [my post graduate is in history, it is my passion], those non-Pharisaic flavors of Judaism that you mention have all disappeared or stopped being Jewish. The Essenes, the Zealots, the Sadducees are no longer and, well, we are all familar with Christian history and its relation to Judaism. As for later 'flavors' like Karites or Sabbatarians, again, they either dis:idea:appear or stop being Jewish. It is my understanding that the attraction of not being a Jew and assimulation is so great that without the constant spiritual re-enforcement of Halachah, Jews would simply 'cross over', melt like Jello left out in the sun, if not in the 1st generation, most definitately, the 2nd and 3rd generations. There is more than enough demographic evidence for this. I think what is happening in Reform/Conservative/Reconstruction/[small 'c']communist Zionists concerning inter-marriage is a further proof of that concept."


CM says: "Christianity still clearly descends from that one myriad pool of 1st C Judaic thought, and orthodox Christianity teaches that it is the fulfillment of the Torah, answering the confused questions of the ancient factions."

kivi says: "Yes, that is a claim of Chirstianity. I think is is not as historically 'strong' as Christians would want it to be. No doubt, there is a Jewish connection. I doubt that the connection represents as large a 'myriad pool' as Christianity would like. At best, a very small faction of Judaism had any of the ideas that show up in Christianity and to be honest, most of them seem to be ideas that came from the non-Jewish spiritual forment that existed at the time and trickled into Judaism through some of the fringe groups {Essenes and the like}. As for 'confused ideas', you'll have to be more specific on that matter for me to follow your line of reasoning. The Pharisaic Community in Eretz Israel was the vast majority; there is no record of any other than the Pharisaic Tradition in Babylon, by far the largest Jewish community in the world, at the time; and in the Greco-Roman environment, the Pharisaic Traditon was the norm out of which there some attempts at synthesis [Philo]. The Sadducees and Essenese, etc, were very localized to Ertz Israel. Within the Pharisaic Tradition, while there were some minor differences between Hillel and Shammai, they were taken care of during the Yavneh period, so they could have not been that divisive."

CM says: "The Second Temple era had many varying schools, the Pharisees merely one of them- albeit the one that has survived well (though hardly intact- considering some of what is accepted in Judaism now is completely foreign to the sages of that era)."

kivi: "As note before>by far the largest and the only one the survived the 1st and 2nd Jewish Wars was the Pharisaic Tradition. Judaism is a performance based spiritual system. Torah constantly reminds us that our spiritual/material success is totally dependent on our loyalty to Torah. You'll have to give some examples of 'hardly intact' and 'completely foreign' for me to follow your line of reasoning.:)"

CM says: "The fact that all of Rabbinic Judaism- Reform, Reconstructionist, Chasidic claim to be from the Pharisees ultimately just goes to show that religious diversity is part and parcel of the Jewish question."

kivi says: "Well, Deut. is very clear, there would be several on-going problems that Judaism would face over and over again. False prophets, ritual formalism, the authority of the Oral Tradition and idolatry being the most persistent."

CM says: "I think it's a pretty wild claim to say that one group has the only genuine handle on "Torah True Tradition","

kivi: Well, it would be an interesting point to discuss. I and the 'Observant' Community stand by the claim."

CM says: "as in my experience even Orthodox groups who dissagree with each other all claim that they are the only ones who have it right. I've lived it."

kivi says: "Well, maybe you will be willing to share it. I have found in my experience, in the 'Observant' Community, that we all sit down at the same table.

[EricLBess]

There are several primitive, heinous and despicable laws mentioned in the bible. That does not make the bible errant but it does cast considerable doubt on the bible's claim that 'God' is merciful and just.

There are far more compelling reasons to hold the bible as errant. There are numerous contradictions, historical and scientific inaccuracies, among other things--enough to where one could completely dismiss any evaluation of the bible as inerrant.

Thanks,
E.L.B.

[ContraMundum]

There are several primitive, heinous and despicable laws mentioned in the bible. That does not make the bible errant but it does cast considerable doubt on the bible's claim that 'God' is merciful and just.

There are far more compelling reasons to hold the bible as errant. There are numerous contradictions, historical and scientific inaccuracies, among other things--enough to where one could completely dismiss any evaluation of the bible as inerrant.

Thanks,
E.L.B.

Heard it all before...

Please post in a more suitable section of CF.

...NEXT!

[ContraMundum]

I must teach you how to make quotes clearer... :)


kivi says: "I would agree:thumbsup:. 'Observant' as a title or a description is pretty lame, as most 'Observant' Jews would agree, as is the term 'Orthodox'. It is just the best we have floating around when trying to make a distinction between us and the other flavors: Reform, Conservative, Reconstruction. However,we are fully committed that the Temple will be re-built, etc etc etc [got to be careful and not step over the RV rules]. It is the promise of all the exile prophets and we hold by them, more than ever.:clap:"[/quotte]

OK.

[quote]kivi: "It seems to me, at a purely historic/academic level [my post graduate is in history, it is my passion], those non-Pharisaic flavors of Judaism that you mention have all disappeared or stopped being Jewish. The Essenes, the Zealots, the Sadducees are no longer and, well, we are all familar with Christian history and its relation to Judaism. As for later 'flavors' like Karites or Sabbatarians, again, they either dis:idea:appear or stop being Jewish. It is my understanding that the attraction of not being a Jew and assimulation is so great that without the constant spiritual re-enforcement of Halachah, Jews would simply 'cross over', melt like Jello left out in the sun, if not in the 1st generation, most definitately, the 2nd and 3rd generations. There is more than enough demographic evidence for this. I think what is happening in Reform/Conservative/Reconstruction/[small 'c']communist Zionists concerning inter-marriage is a further proof of that concept."

Standard "Orthodox" response, as expected It's very relative, and in any case, such an interpretation of history would not make "orthodoxy" correct per se. :)

kivi says: "Yes, that is a claim of Chirstianity. I think is is not as historically 'strong' as Christians would want it to be. No doubt, there is a Jewish connection. I doubt that the connection represents as large a 'myriad pool' as Christianity would like. At best, a very small faction of Judaism had any of the ideas that show up in Christianity and to be honest, most of them seem to be ideas that came from the non-Jewish spiritual forment that existed at the time and trickled into Judaism through some of the fringe groups {Essenes and the like}.

Absolute rubbish, and an insult to the intelligence of Christians, I might add! I know you mean only good though. But my challenge is- be the first to try to prove such a case- keep in mind that for almost 2000 people have been trying to build a case like that against Christianity.

As for 'confused ideas', you'll have to be more specific on that matter for me to follow your line of reasoning.

Doesn't matter. I'm not here to criticise your religion. I could strip it down easily but I really can't be bothered. We should not spend too much time doing this- I'm sure you would agree.

kivi: "As note before>by far the largest and the only one the survived the 1st and 2nd Jewish Wars was the Pharisaic Tradition. Judaism is a performance based spiritual system.

Being large, as hinted at above, doesn't make it right or true. If that were the case, than Christianity is hands-down the winner of the Judaic tradition.

Also, being a performance based system at getting more numbers than the Essenes (for example) would not make it right either. Increasing human efforts always pay dividends, as is true in false religions. So, let's not use that to prove anything, eh? :)

Torah constantly reminds us that our spiritual/material success is totally dependent on our loyalty to Torah.

...yep...and you'll never know when you've done enough or are doing too much of something wrong.

You'll have to give some examples of 'hardly intact' and 'completely foreign' for me to follow your line of reasoning.:)"

Is your cat Jewish? Was he a bad Jew who HaShem reincarnated into a cat? This is within the teaching of the Zohar. Obviously, Moses knew nothing of this. Interesting that the Hindus did though. The Zohar and other elements of chasidus is completely foreign to the Torah, and yet is completely acceptable among the so-called Orthodox community. That's just one example. I could go on, but why should I bother? You know how much of Judaism comes from the Middle Ages etc.- I hope.

What really irks me is this- orthodox Jews are more than prepared to put Christianity under the microscope and present whacked theories about it being influenced by false religions, yet they will not do the same with their own. I think it's an open and shut case that some of modern day Rabbinic Judaism is actually not from Israel, but from Babylon. I think it's very easy to prove, historically, and theologically. Perhaps you ought to tend to your own tradition before you critique ours?

kivi: Well, it would be an interesting point to discuss. I and the 'Observant' Community stand by the claim."

I came out of the "observant" community and know well the claims they present. I think some of what passes for Judaism these days is neither verifyable or falsifiable- so it's just pure baseless dark ages tradition enshrined by a group of people. It's just words and beliefs without power. "Icabod". We know the Rabbis agree about there being no prophets (according to the Talmud anyway!), but claim a "bat kol" and thus authority. The problem is- you have no proof that the Zohar, for example, is from God. The idea that it is from a secretive ancient tradition (claimed to be from Abraham via the Sefer Yetzirah- which we cannot prove to be that old either!) smacks of gnosticism. Compare many teachings from Chasidus and they smack of gnosticism. If it were possible on this forum I could bury you in research about this. It's more than a hobby to me.

CM says: "as in my experience even Orthodox groups who dissagree with each other all claim that they are the only ones who have it right. I've lived it."

kivi says: "Well, maybe you will be willing to share it. I have found in my experience, in the 'Observant' Community, that we all sit down at the same table.

I'm not talking about sitting at a table. Jews do that with anybody, in my experience, and are happy to receive other Jews especially. But there are levels of that, aren't there? Eg. are you going to tell me that a Satmar is going to sit in peace with a member of Shas, or that Adass are going to start sending their kids to a Lubavitcher Yeshiva! You get my meaning.

Bless you.

[kivi]

CM says: “I must teach you how to make quotes clearer... ”

kivi says: "I look foreward to it."


CM says: “Standard "Orthodox" response, as expected It's very relative, and in any case, such an interpretation of history would not make "orthodoxy" correct per se. “
Kivi says “I appreciate your opinion, I just don’t think that it works. I doubt that you will find anything in my statements that are very outside the orthodox Orthodox response. That is what I hold by and that is what I promised to this forum that I would give. I am not here to argue ‘right’ or wrong’. 1st, I am not allowed to by the rules of your forum. 2nd, it is a waste of time. 3rd, I am hoping to get out of the old ruts and try something new, like conversation, not conversion.”
CM says: “Absolute rubbish, and an insult to the intelligence of Christians, I might add! I know you mean only good though. But my challenge is- be the first to try to prove such a case- keep in mind that for almost 2000 people have been trying to build a case like that against Christianity.”
Kivi says: “I am sorry you think that I am insulting you. I am merely sharing with you my responses to your statements. I am not here to make a case against Christianity. I am forbidden to seek converts by my own spiritual tradition. Also, the rules of your forum forbid me. But I am sharing the Torah True view on the matter. And that is what I am going to stick to.”
C M says: “Being large, as hinted at above, doesn't make it right or true. If that were the case, than Christianity is hands-down the winner of the Judaic tradition.”

kivi says: Jut to re-enforce my purpose, I am not here to prove right or wrong, true or false. I am merely sharing the historical facts. Since I can not see any historic Jewish tradition in Christianity that ties the period of O CE to the present, I don’t see how you can claim that “Christianity is hands-down the winner of the Judaic tradition.” What I mean is there is no identifiable group of Christians who were also practicing Jews with an un-broken history. And the history of Christianity is most definitely a continuous assault on Judaism. I am worried that if I go any further, I will be in violation of your forum’s rules. Care to help me out here?”
CM says: “Also, being a performance based system at getting more numbers than the Essenes (for example) would not make it right either. Increasing human efforts always pay dividends, as is true in false religions. So, let's not use that to prove anything, eh? “
Kivi: “One of the promises that G-d made to B’nai Israel is that he would protect us and that His protection would be such that we would never stray out of Torah to the point of extinction. Our continued existence with what we consider to be a straight arrow Tradition from Moses to the present is a spiritual comfort and encouragement to us. That is what I mean by ‘performance based’. Not that it gets large or dominate or ‘the winner’, but that it continues while all else fades. With a population of less than 14 millions in a world of 6 billions, we are hardly winning any population race.”
Kivi from the previous post says: “Torah constantly reminds us that our spiritual/material success is totally dependent on our loyalty to Torah.”
CM says: “ ...yep...and you'll never know when you've done enough or are doing too much of something wrong”
kivi says: “We don’t think so. IN fact, we are very aware and sure and re-assured by the limits and boundaries that G-d puts on His Mitzvahs. We do not walk around worrying that we aren’t doing enough or are doing too much. The idea that the Law is a curse or was created to ‘bring a person up short’ is totally foreign to Judaism and the Jews. We see the law as a comfort and a protection.”
CM says: “Is your cat Jewish? Was he a bad Jew who HaShem reincarnated into a cat? This is within the teaching of the Zohar. Obviously, Moses knew nothing of this. Interesting that the Hindus did though. The Zohar and other elements of chasidus is completely foreign to the Torah, and yet is completely acceptable among the so-called Orthodox community. That's just one example. I could go on, but why should I bother? You know how much of Judaism comes from the Middle Ages etc.- I hope.”

Kivi:” Well, you have gotten me on the subject that I am the least knowledgeable about and the one I find the least personally interesting. But if that is were you would like to go, I’ll stumble along as best I can.”

CM says: “What really irks me is this- orthodox Jews are more than prepared to put Christianity under the microscope and present whacked theories about it being influenced by false religions, yet they will not do the same with their own.
Kivi says: “Then show us.”
CM says: “I think it's an open and shut case that some of modern day Rabbinic Judaism is actually not from Israel, but from Babylon. I think it's very easy to prove, historically, and theologically. Perhaps you ought to tend to your own tradition before you critique ours?”
Kivi says: Well, you’ll have to prove it rather then just claim it.”
CM says: “I came out of the "observant" community and know well the claims they present. I think some of what passes for Judaism these days is neither verifyable or falsifiable- so it's just pure baseless dark ages tradition enshrined by a group of people.
Kivi says: “Well, those are strong claims, any evidence?”

CM says: “It's just words and beliefs without power. "Icabod". We know the Rabbis agree about there being no prophets (according to the Talmud anyway!), but claim a "bat kol" and thus authority. The problem is- you have no proof that the Zohar, for example, is from God. The idea that it is from a secretive ancient tradition (claimed to be from Abraham via the Sefer Yetzirah- which we cannot prove to be that old either!) smacks of gnosticism. Compare many teachings from Chasidus and they smack of gnosticism. If it were possible on this forum I could bury you in research about this. It's more than a hobby to me.
Kivi says: OK, you think it is gnosticism. And….? “
kivi say from the previous post: "Well, maybe you will be willing to share it. I have found in my experience, in the 'Observant' Community, that we all sit down at the same table.
CM says: “I'm not talking about sitting at a table. Jews do that with anybody, in my experience, and are happy to receive other Jews especially. But there are levels of that, aren't there? Eg. are you going to tell me that a Satmar is going to sit in peace with a member of Shas, or that Adass are going to start sending their kids to a Lubavitcher Yeshiva! You get my meaning.”

Kivi says: I very much get your meaning. But I taught in a Lubavitcher yeshiva for years that had all sorts of non-CHABAD students. I’m a Young Israel type of Jew and had at my Shabbas table Satmer and Lubavitch and Agudas Israel guests. When I say ‘we all sit down at the same table’ I am noting that we all respect our differences and do not use them to condemn or cast out other Observant Jews”. Unlike much of what I have found in the Christian world, I find the Jewish world for all of its problems to be much more ‘ecumenical'.

Bless you.
__________________

[ContraMundum]

CM says: “I must teach you how to make quotes clearer... ”

kivi says: "I look foreward to it."

Hmmm....ok....I'll pm you later about that.

Kivi says “I appreciate your opinion, I just don’t think that it works. I doubt that you will find anything in my statements that are very outside the orthodox Orthodox response. That is what I hold by and that is what I promised to this forum that I would give.

Excellent. I admire that.

I am not here to argue ‘right’ or wrong’. 1st, I am not allowed to by the rules of your forum. 2nd, it is a waste of time. 3rd, I am hoping to get out of the old ruts and try something new, like conversation, not conversion.”

Even better- I admire that too.

Kivi says: “I am sorry you think that I am insulting you. I am merely sharing with you my responses to your statements. I am not here to make a case against Christianity. I am forbidden to seek converts by my own spiritual tradition. Also, the rules of your forum forbid me. But I am sharing the Torah True view on the matter. And that is what I am going to stick to.”

While I know it is claimed that Judaism does not seek converts, I dispute that claim with the Rabbis, because the Noahide movement is clearly the conversion arm of the Jewish religion- just look at the way it is operating now!

kivi says: Jut to re-enforce my purpose, I am not here to prove right or wrong, true or false. I am merely sharing the historical facts. Since I can not see any historic Jewish tradition in Christianity that ties the period of O CE to the present, I don’t see how you can claim that “Christianity is hands-down the winner of the Judaic tradition.”

OK...great opportunity here. I've been waiting for the forum to get fixed up and the Messianic Hebrew Christian section to get up and running before I start posting about the deeper aspects of the Christian faith and the clear case that it is in fact the fulfillment of all things- Temple, synagogue etc. and that it maintains the same distinctions etc. But, until then, I cannot- it would confuse a lot of people here until we get our own space.

What I mean is there is no identifiable group of Christians who were also practicing Jews with an un-broken history. And the history of Christianity is most definitely a continuous assault on Judaism. I am worried that if I go any further, I will be in violation of your forum’s rules. Care to help me out here?”

Well, of course. For a start, if you think Christianity is a continuous assault on Judaism, you've been reading the wrong stuff. There's been a lot of good things between the two religions- but I was raised Jewish so I know I was never told about them and had to find out myself. Also, there are people on this forum who have read the same stuff but are Christians regardless. Interesting, eh?

As for there being an unbroken lineage of practicing Jewish believers in Church history- it is true that in various times converts to Christianity took different nationalities and the Jews have come at various times into the Church. However, the scriptures tell us that the first Christians were Jews and the last ones will likely be Jews too. In the interim, the doctrine remains, even if it is practiced by Gentiles. In other words, the doctrine given to the church by the Jewish Messiah is the same as it was, even if externals and racial features give it a different outward appearance.

Kivi: “One of the promises that G-d made to B’nai Israel is that he would protect us and that His protection would be such that we would never stray out of Torah to the point of extinction. Our continued existence with what we consider to be a straight arrow Tradition from Moses to the present is a spiritual comfort and encouragement to us. That is what I mean by ‘performance based’.

OK....sorta. Can one say it's performance based because God has made a promise that He has kept? It's God's business, and let's not rate His performance.

As for the straight arrow tradition from Moses, this is a good thing for any Jew to keep- even those who believe that Yeshua is the Messiah.

CM says: “ ...yep...and you'll never know when you've done enough or are doing too much of something wrong”
kivi says: “We don’t think so. IN fact, we are very aware and sure and re-assured by the limits and boundaries that G-d puts on His Mitzvahs. We do not walk around worrying that we aren’t doing enough or are doing too much. The idea that the Law is a curse or was created to ‘bring a person up short’ is totally foreign to Judaism and the Jews. We see the law as a comfort and a protection.”

Umm....not exactly true, though, is it? As you and I both know, the Rabbis teach that laws are always being added to Israel (not driving on Shabbos, wearing a kippa, etc.) because of her sinful state because she is so very far from HaShem. The laws are being added to create a boundary around the Torah, thus making it more difficult to break the law and protecting us from sin. However, some of the laws that the Rabbis have made are pretty awful and clearly not spiritual- consider the law that a Jew cannot save a Gentile's life unless the Gentile pays him. That's a pretty bad spin D'Varim 7:2- and shows that the authors of that particular application had a hardened heart, IMHO. Is that really from HaShem and can they prove it? Then, a Rabbi will tell you that Judaism is a religion that "loves life above all". Double talk. There's mitzvot that bid us to treat an animal of a Jew with more mercy than a Gentile.

Anyway, the idea of the law being a "curse" is out of context. Anyone familiar with St Paul will tell you that he spoke of the law as life-giving: unless you break it. This is the proper context.

Kivi:” Well, you have gotten me on the subject that I am the least knowledgeable about and the one I find the least personally interesting. But if that is were you would like to go, I’ll stumble along as best I can.”

Better to let you do your own research into the world of Chasidus.

CM says: “What really irks me is this- orthodox Jews are more than prepared to put Christianity under the microscope and present whacked theories about it being influenced by false religions, yet they will not do the same with their own.
Kivi says: “Then show us.”
CM says: “I think it's an open and shut case that some of modern day Rabbinic Judaism is actually not from Israel, but from Babylon. I think it's very easy to prove, historically, and theologically. Perhaps you ought to tend to your own tradition before you critique ours?”
Kivi says: Well, you’ll have to prove it rather then just claim it.”

All in good time.

CM says: “I came out of the "observant" community and know well the claims they present. I think some of what passes for Judaism these days is neither verifyable or falsifiable- so it's just pure baseless dark ages tradition enshrined by a group of people.
Kivi says: “Well, those are strong claims, any evidence?”

Well, perhaps it is best to first address the claims I have already spoken of. Let's start with "who actually wrote the Sefer Yetzirah?"

Kivi says: I very much get your meaning. But I taught in a Lubavitcher yeshiva for years that had all sorts of non-CHABAD students. I’m a Young Israel type of Jew and had at my Shabbas table Satmer and Lubavitch and Agudas Israel guests. When I say ‘we all sit down at the same table’ I am noting that we all respect our differences and do not use them to condemn or cast out other Observant Jews”. Unlike much of what I have found in the Christian world, I find the Jewish world for all of its problems to be much more ‘ecumenical'.

Perhaps your view of the Christian world is very American (where everything is on steroids) but in fact, there isn't much serious division these days. Denominations do a lot of cross-pollenisation. They share pastors, teachers, books, etc. It's very commonplace.

[Lulav]

Heard it all before...

Please post in a more suitable section of CF.

...NEXT! Eric you are welcome to debate in this forum. I can't think of a more suitable section for someone who is an ex Messianic to debate in. Please don't let the dismissive attitude of some deter you from looking for answers.

:)

[ContraMundum]

The "Mod Hat" function isn't working, but consider this a Mod Hat post.

There is a section devoted to atheist debate- this isn't it. The guidelines are pretty clear about that. The Forum is "Open to Christians and Jews", this sub-forum has a relaxed position on who can debate, but is still covered under the FSG's. Please don't encourage posting against them.

[kivi]

CM says: "While I know it is claimed that Judaism does not seek converts, I dispute that claim with the Rabbis, because the Noahide movement is clearly the conversion arm of the Jewish religion- just look at the way it is operating now!"


kivi says: "Now really, you are comparing the Noachite movement to the muliti-billion dollar Christian missionary effort around the world? To be honest, I am flattered, I just know that it is not true. Of course, Judaism is not for Jews in the sense that Christianity is for Christains. In fact, Jews are for Judaism, that is, we were created to perform something for others, Judaims is just the training/discipline we are given to do that job. In effect, we are in service to a higher ideal that has little in reward for us and much in the way of danger and hardship except the sense of service it provides. If you follow the logic of Judaism to its end, Judaism was created for the gentile, like plumbers were created for the home-owner. We here to perform a service to Mankind that is much greater than the return it provides to us."


CM says: "OK...great opportunity here. I've been waiting for the forum to get fixed up and the Messianic Hebrew Christian section to get up and running before I start posting about the deeper aspects of the Christian faith and the clear case that it is in fact the fulfillment of all things- Temple, synagogue etc. and that it maintains the same distinctions etc. But, until then, I cannot- it would confuse a lot of people here until we get our own space."

Kivi says: "Well, I'll be interested, but for real, unless you can show a continous unbroken tradition of a Christian community that is also a practicing Jewish community from the time of the late 2nd Temple to the present, I'll just not be all that impressed. To a great part, we hold our legitimacy is based on our unbroken and continous Tradition from Matan Torah to the present. Unless there is an equivilant in what you are claiming, so what?"


CM says: "Well, of course. For a start, if you think Christianity is a continuous assault on Judaism, you've been reading the wrong stuff. There's been a lot of good things between the two religions- but I was raised Jewish so I know I was never told about them and had to find out myself."

kivi says: "Well, you'll have to come up with some sources for that claim. No doubt there have been righteous gentiles all thorugh history. But often at the private level and almost always at the institutional level, the aggressive and violent nature of the Christian relation with Judaism is very well documented. I'll stand by that documentation/history."

CM says: "Also, there are people on this forum who have read the same stuff but are Christians regardless. Interesting, eh?"

kivi says: "Hardly 'interesting', more like sad, I think. I have run into 'variations on the same theme' justifications: "Well, I didn't do it." or "My denomination didn't do it." or "The devil did it." or "Anybody who would do that isn't a real Christain." To my ears, they are just more or less forms of denial."

CM: "As for there being an unbroken lineage of practicing Jewish believers in Church history- it is true that in various times converts to Christianity took different nationalities and the Jews have come at various times into the Church."

Kivi says: "What you are saying in a round about way is that when Jews converted to Christianiyty, they stopped acting like Jews and by their children's generation, the children marry into the greater Christian community and, in effect, disappeared, like the 10 Tribes. So, what yo are really saying is that there is no Chirstian community that was also a Jewish community that has an unbroken tradition from the late 2nd Temple period to the present."

CM says: "However, the scriptures tell us that the first Christians were Jews and the last ones will likely be Jews too. In the interim, the doctrine remains, even if it is practiced by Gentiles.:

kivi says: "And, to be honest, that just does not count. With gentiles practicing Jewish stuff, it stops being Jewish. Their intent was not Jewish, their knowledge was not Jewish. They had no effective manner of not dropping out important and critical information, the non-Jewish stuff that does get dragged in fatally infects what was remaining. If the tradition is broken, if there is not a continous chain over the generations of people with both intent and knowledge, it just does not count because it does not work."

CM: "In other words, the doctrine given to the church by the Jewish Messiah is the same as it was, even if externals and racial features give it a different outward appearance."

kivi says: "I'll stop here. I feel if I respond to this last part of your statment I'll go over the line, commit a RV and be deleted."


Kivi: “One of the promises that G-d made to B’nai Israel is that he would protect us and that His protection would be such that we would never stray out of Torah to the point of extinction. Our continued existence with what we consider to be a straight arrow Tradition from Moses to the present is a spiritual comfort and encouragement to us. That is what I mean by ‘performance based’.

CM: "OK....sorta. Can one say it's performance based because God has made a promise that He has kept? It's God's business, and let's not rate His performance."

kivi says: "Oh, I think that Judaism does rate G-d's job performance. I think that G-d was as much in a job interview with Avraham as Avraham was in a job interview with G-d. Based on what was available at that time in the god job market, all of the gods looking for emplyment were pretty impossible. They had no sense of honor, they tricked their worshippers, they demanded de-moralizing, de-humanizing, humiliating forms of worship, they were arbitary, cruel and petty. They regularly had sex with humans, they took sides in human affairs based on self-interest and selfishness. They lied, stole, murdered and cheated every time they could. Most of human worship was to pay-off the gods so they would not dump on the humans in question. It was a protection rachet. G-d went to great lengths to show Avraham and the later Patriarches and the Jewish people before, during and after the Exodus that He was significantly different: He was merciful, slow to anger, compassionate, did not change His mind, was faithful, kept His promises, did not have human form, did not require human sacrifice or human sexual partners, etc. Oh, I think that Judaism fully judges G-d, as it should. And I think that this judging has continued and shown up in several significant periods in Jewish history [noting that it goes both ways]: The Golden Calf, the Spies, the 1st assault on Eretz Israel, the est. of the Davidic dynasty, the Babylonian/Persian exile and the story of Ruth, the start of Galus with the building of the 2nd Temple, the 1st and 2nd Jewish Wars, the est. of the Ghetto, Emancipation and Modernity, the Holocaust, Israeli Independence and the 6th Day War. Each of these signifiant effects have been as much a test of G-d's nature/character as they have been of Jewish nature/character."


CM says: "As for the straight arrow tradition from Moses, this is a good thing for any Jew to keep- even those who believe that Yeshua is the Messiah."

kivi says: "I'll let that one pass, I smell a RV."


CM says: “ ...yep...and you'll never know when you've done enough or are doing too much of something wrong”

kivi says: “We don’t think so. IN fact, we are very aware and sure and re-assured by the limits and boundaries that G-d puts on His Mitzvahs. We do not walk around worrying that we aren’t doing enough or are doing too much. The idea that the Law is a curse or was created to ‘bring a person up short’ is totally foreign to Judaism and the Jews. We see the law as a comfort and a protection.”



CM says: "Umm....not exactly true, though, is it?"

kivi says: Oh, I think it is absolutely true."

CM says: "As you and I both know, the Rabbis teach that laws are always being added to Israel (not driving on Shabbos, wearing a kippa, etc.) because of her sinful state because she is so very far from HaShem."

Kivi's says: "Not really. No doubt that the spiritual level has gone down, the further we are from Matan Torah, the lower our spiritual level is, but that is not a function of sin, but of time. As for 'additional laws', well, cars is obvious, unless we want to be a form of Amish and get stuck in a technological time warp, we have to apply the Laws as given at Matan Torah to current circumstances. The kipot was hardly a Rabbinical thingee but rather a Jewish Community thingee that the Rabbis normalized. It does matter were the urge for reform does come from. In the case of the kipot, it came from the Community, not the Rabbis."

CM says: "The laws are being added to create a boundary around the Torah, thus making it more difficult to break the law and protecting us from sin."

kivi says: "Exactly. And they are all voluntary, meant as fences not chopping knives."

CM says: "However, some of the laws that the Rabbis have made are pretty awful and clearly not spiritual- consider the law that a Jew cannot save a Gentile's life unless the Gentile pays him."

kivi says: "Not true."

CM says: "That's a pretty bad spin D'Varim 7:2- and shows that the authors of that particular application had a hardened heart, IMHO. Is that really from HaShem and can they prove it?"

kivi says: Well, unless you are a member of a group that has a different take on the Old Testament, in the Jewish Tradition, all of the 1st 5 Books of Moses including Devarim are direct quotes from G-d and have nothing to do with the Rabbis. So, the question is the spiritual condition of the Hittites, etc, in the Mitzvahs in Devarim 7. And, according to Torah, their spiritual condition was worse than the Egyptians which was as bad as it could get. They had lost the Land because of ther total spiritual failure. We are talking the moral equivalent of the Chinese Communists, the Russian Communists, the Khmer Rouge, the Rwandian genocide perpetrators, the Muslim terrorists, the Nazis, the Russian Orthodox, Henry Ford, the KKK, etc etc etc, all roled into one."


CM says: "Then, a Rabbi will tell you that Judaism is a religion that "loves life above all". Double talk. There's mitzvot that bid us to treat an animal of a Jew with more mercy than a Gentile."

kviv says: "Not true."

CM says: "Anyway, the idea of the law being a "curse" is out of context. Anyone familiar with St Paul will tell you that he spoke of the law as life-giving: unless you break it. This is the proper context."

kivi says: "Well, 'anyone' is a pretty big word. In my seminary courses at Union Theological, the Law, in Paul's understanding, was damning because it could not be not broken. So it always led to death."

CM says: “I think it's an open and shut case that some of modern day Rabbinic Judaism is actually not from Israel, but from Babylon."

kivi says: Well, then get to the door and start opening and shutting it."

CM says: "I think it's very easy to prove, historically, and theologically.

"kivis says: "Well, you'll have to prove it rather than just claim it."

CM: "Perhaps you ought to tend to your own tradition before you critique ours?”

Kivi says: "I am not permitted by the rules of your own forum to critique yours."

CM says: "All in good time."

kivi says: "I'm patient."

CM says: “I came out of the "observant" community and know well the claims they present. I think some of what passes for Judaism these days is neither verifyable or falsifiable- so it's just pure baseless dark ages tradition enshrined by a group of people.

Kivi says: “Well, those are strong claims, any evidence?”

CM says: "Well, perhaps it is best to first address the claims I have already spoken of. Let's start with "who actually wrote the Sefer Yetzirah?"

kivi says: "And......."


CM says: "Perhaps your view of the Christian world is very American (where everything is on steroids) but in fact, there isn't much serious division these days. Denominations do a lot of cross-pollenisation. They share pastors, teachers, books, etc. It's very commonplace."

kivi says: "Well, my experience with Christianity does not match yours. The Protestant have issues with the Catholics who have issues with the Orthodox who have issues with the Jehovah Witnesses who have issues with the 7th Day Adventists and all have issues with the Mormons who have issues with themselves>you get the drift. I have spent a lot of time on anti missionary groups chat rooms and the Christians who come to those groups to 'spread' the word spend as much time damning some other Christian denomination as they do trying to get us to convert. Its pretty pitiful."

[kivi]

CM says: "While I know it is claimed that Judaism does not seek converts, I dispute that claim with the Rabbis, because the Noahide movement is clearly the conversion arm of the Jewish religion- just look at the way it is operating now!"


kivi says: "Now really, you are comparing the Noachite movement to the muliti-billion dollar Christian missionary effort around the world? To be honest, I am flattered, I just know that it is not true. Of course, Judaism is not for Jews in the sense that Christianity is for Christains. In fact, Jews are for Judaism, that is, we were created to perform something for others, Judaims is just the training/discipline we are given to do that job. In effect, we are in service to a higher ideal that has little in reward for us and much in the way of danger and hardship except the sense of service it provides. If you follow the logic of Judaism to its end, Judaism was created for the gentile, like plumbers were created for the home-owner. We here to perform a service to Mankind that is much greater than the return it provides to us."


CM says: "OK...great opportunity here. I've been waiting for the forum to get fixed up and the Messianic Hebrew Christian section to get up and running before I start posting about the deeper aspects of the Christian faith and the clear case that it is in fact the fulfillment of all things- Temple, synagogue etc. and that it maintains the same distinctions etc. But, until then, I cannot- it would confuse a lot of people here until we get our own space."

Kivi says: "Well, I'll be interested, but for real, unless you can show a continous unbroken tradition of a Christian community that is also a practicing Jewish community from the time of the late 2nd Temple to the present, I'll just not be all that impressed. To a great part, we hold our legitimacy is based on our unbroken and continous Tradition from Matan Torah to the present. Unless there is an equivilant in what you are claiming, so what?"


CM says: "Well, of course. For a start, if you think Christianity is a continuous assault on Judaism, you've been reading the wrong stuff. There's been a lot of good things between the two religions- but I was raised Jewish so I know I was never told about them and had to find out myself."

kivi says: "Well, you'll have to come up with some sources for that claim. No doubt there have been righteous gentiles all thorugh history. But often at the private level and almost always at the institutional level, the aggressive and violent nature of the Christian relation with Judaism is very well documented. I'll stand by that documentation/history."

CM says: "Also, there are people on this forum who have read the same stuff but are Christians regardless. Interesting, eh?"

kivi says: "Hardly 'interesting', more like sad, I think. I have run into 'variations on the same theme' justifications: "Well, I didn't do it." or "My denomination didn't do it." or "The devil did it." or "Anybody who would do that isn't a real Christain." To my ears, they are just more or less forms of denial."

CM: "As for there being an unbroken lineage of practicing Jewish believers in Church history- it is true that in various times converts to Christianity took different nationalities and the Jews have come at various times into the Church."

Kivi says: "What you are saying in a round about way is that when Jews converted to Christianiyty, they stopped acting like Jews and by their children's generation, the children marry into the greater Christian community and, in effect, disappeared, like the 10 Tribes. So, what yo are really saying is that there is no Chirstian community that was also a Jewish community that has an unbroken tradition from the late 2nd Temple period to the present."

CM says: "However, the scriptures tell us that the first Christians were Jews and the last ones will likely be Jews too. In the interim, the doctrine remains, even if it is practiced by Gentiles.:

kivi says: "And, to be honest, that just does not count. With gentiles practicing Jewish stuff, it stops being Jewish. Their intent was not Jewish, their knowledge was not Jewish. They had no effective manner of not dropping out important and critical information, the non-Jewish stuff that does get dragged in fatally infects what was remaining. If the tradition is broken, if there is not a continous chain over the generations of people with both intent and knowledge, it just does not count because it does not work."

CM: "In other words, the doctrine given to the church by the Jewish Messiah is the same as it was, even if externals and racial features give it a different outward appearance."

kivi says: "I'll stop here. I feel if I respond to this last part of your statment I'll go over the line, commit a RV and be deleted."


Kivi: “One of the promises that G-d made to B’nai Israel is that he would protect us and that His protection would be such that we would never stray out of Torah to the point of extinction. Our continued existence with what we consider to be a straight arrow Tradition from Moses to the present is a spiritual comfort and encouragement to us. That is what I mean by ‘performance based’.

CM: "OK....sorta. Can one say it's performance based because God has made a promise that He has kept? It's God's business, and let's not rate His performance."

kivi says: "Oh, I think that Judaism does rate G-d's job performance. I think that G-d was as much in a job interview with Avraham as Avraham was in a job interview with G-d. Based on what was available at that time in the god job market, all of the gods looking for emplyment were pretty impossible. They had no sense of honor, they tricked their worshippers, they demanded de-moralizing, de-humanizing, humiliating forms of worship, they were arbitary, cruel and petty. They regularly had sex with humans, they took sides in human affairs based on self-interest and selfishness. They lied, stole, murdered and cheated every time they could. Most of human worship was to pay-off the gods so they would not dump on the humans in question. It was a protection rachet. G-d went to great lengths to show Avraham and the later Patriarches and the Jewish people before, during and after the Exodus that He was significantly different: He was merciful, slow to anger, compassionate, did not change His mind, was faithful, kept His promises, did not have human form, did not require human sacrifice or human sexual partners, etc. Oh, I think that Judaism fully judges G-d, as it should. And I think that this judging has continued and shown up in several significant periods in Jewish history [noting that it goes both ways]: The Golden Calf, the Spies, the 1st assault on Eretz Israel, the est. of the Davidic dynasty, the Babylonian/Persian exile and the story of Ruth, the start of Galus with the building of the 2nd Temple, the 1st and 2nd Jewish Wars, the est. of the Ghetto, Emancipation and Modernity, the Holocaust, Israeli Independence and the 6th Day War. Each of these signifiant effects have been as much a test of G-d's nature/character as they have been of Jewish nature/character."


CM says: "As for the straight arrow tradition from Moses, this is a good thing for any Jew to keep- even those who believe that Yeshua is the Messiah."

kivi says: "I'll let that one pass, I smell a RV."


CM says: “ ...yep...and you'll never know when you've done enough or are doing too much of something wrong”

kivi says: “We don’t think so. IN fact, we are very aware and sure and re-assured by the limits and boundaries that G-d puts on His Mitzvahs. We do not walk around worrying that we aren’t doing enough or are doing too much. The idea that the Law is a curse or was created to ‘bring a person up short’ is totally foreign to Judaism and the Jews. We see the law as a comfort and a protection.”



CM says: "Umm....not exactly true, though, is it?"

kivi says: Oh, I think it is absolutely true."

CM says: "As you and I both know, the Rabbis teach that laws are always being added to Israel (not driving on Shabbos, wearing a kippa, etc.) because of her sinful state because she is so very far from HaShem."

Kivi's says: "Not really. No doubt that the spiritual level has gone down, the further we are from Matan Torah, the lower our spiritual level is, but that is not a function of sin, but of time. As for 'additional laws', well, cars is obvious, unless we want to be a form of Amish and get stuck in a technological time warp, we have to apply the Laws as given at Matan Torah to current circumstances. The kipot was hardly a Rabbinical thingee but rather a Jewish Community thingee that the Rabbis normalized. It does matter were the urge for reform does come from. In the case of the kipot, it came from the Community, not the Rabbis."

CM says: "The laws are being added to create a boundary around the Torah, thus making it more difficult to break the law and protecting us from sin."

kivi says: "Exactly. And they are all voluntary, meant as fences not chopping knives."

CM says: "However, some of the laws that the Rabbis have made are pretty awful and clearly not spiritual- consider the law that a Jew cannot save a Gentile's life unless the Gentile pays him."

kivi says: "Not true."

CM says: "That's a pretty bad spin D'Varim 7:2- and shows that the authors of that particular application had a hardened heart, IMHO. Is that really from HaShem and can they prove it?"

kivi says: Well, unless you are a member of a group that has a different take on the Old Testament, in the Jewish Tradition, all of the 1st 5 Books of Moses including Devarim are direct quotes from G-d and have nothing to do with the Rabbis. So, the question is the spiritual condition of the Hittites, etc, in the Mitzvahs in Devarim 7. And, according to Torah, their spiritual condition was worse than the Egyptians which was as bad as it could get. They had lost the Land because of ther total spiritual failure. We are talking the moral equivalent of the Chinese Communists, the Russian Communists, the Khmer Rouge, the Rwandian genocide perpetrators, the Muslim terrorists, the Nazis, the Russian Orthodox, Henry Ford, the KKK, etc etc etc, all roled into one."


CM says: "Then, a Rabbi will tell you that Judaism is a religion that "loves life above all". Double talk. There's mitzvot that bid us to treat an animal of a Jew with more mercy than a Gentile."

kviv says: "Not true."

CM says: "Anyway, the idea of the law being a "curse" is out of context. Anyone familiar with St Paul will tell you that he spoke of the law as life-giving: unless you break it. This is the proper context."

kivi says: "Well, 'anyone' is a pretty big word. In my seminary courses at Union Theological, the Law, in Paul's understanding, was damning because it could not be not broken. So it always led to death."

CM says: “I think it's an open and shut case that some of modern day Rabbinic Judaism is actually not from Israel, but from Babylon."

kivi says: Well, then get to the door and start opening and shutting it."

CM says: "I think it's very easy to prove, historically, and theologically.

"kivis says: "Well, you'll have to prove it rather than just claim it."

CM: "Perhaps you ought to tend to your own tradition before you critique ours?”

Kivi says: "I am not permitted by the rules of your own forum to critique yours."

CM says: "All in good time."

kivi says: "I'm patient."

CM says: “I came out of the "observant" community and know well the claims they present. I think some of what passes for Judaism these days is neither verifyable or falsifiable- so it's just pure baseless dark ages tradition enshrined by a group of people.

Kivi says: “Well, those are strong claims, any evidence?”

CM says: "Well, perhaps it is best to first address the claims I have already spoken of. Let's start with "who actually wrote the Sefer Yetzirah?"

kivi says: "And......."


CM says: "Perhaps your view of the Christian world is very American (where everything is on steroids) but in fact, there isn't much serious division these days. Denominations do a lot of cross-pollenisation. They share pastors, teachers, books, etc. It's very commonplace."

kivi says: "Well, my experience with Christianity does not match yours. The Protestant have issues with the Catholics who have issues with the Orthodox who have issues with the Jehovah Witnesses who have issues with the 7th Day Adventists and all have issues with the Mormons who have issues with themselves>you get the drift. I have spent a lot of time on anti missionary groups chat rooms and the Christians who come to those groups to 'spread' the word spend as much time damning some other Christian denomination as they do trying to get us to convert. Its pretty pitiful."

[HaReb]

I am following this debate between the two of you - it is interesting!


The Protestant have issues with the Catholics who have issues with the Orthodox who have issues with the Jehovah Witnesses who have issues with the 7th Day Adventists and all have issues with the Mormons who have issues with themselves


I must object, though, that JW's and Mormons are lumped together with Christians - they are not, and never will be, Christian, unless thy change their belief system quite dramatically! The other groups fit the term 'Christian' to one extent or another.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: "Now really, you are comparing the Noachite movement to the muliti-billion dollar Christian missionary effort around the world?

I don't think I did draw such a comparison. This is apples and oranges. Christianity is a missionary religion. That's clear. It's not hidden. However, Judaism claims to be a non-missionary religion- yet more and more we see anti-missionary activity linked to the Noachide movement and vice-versa. In fact, the Noachide movement publishes tracts and everything. They'll never compete with Christianity, but then again, they don't really have an urgent message of salvation like Christianity.

<snipped>

Kivi says: "Well, I'll be interested, but for real, unless you can show a continous unbroken tradition of a Christian community that is also a practicing Jewish community from the time of the late 2nd Temple to the present, I'll just not be all that impressed. I can easily prove an unbroken tradition, easily. That's not going to satisfy you unless the people in charge are the right ethnicty though...so perhaps you should try a different forum? Proper Christian tradition, unbroken and ancient, is a religion without racism.

To a great part, we hold our legitimacy is based on our unbroken and continous Tradition from Matan Torah to the present. Unless there is an equivilant in what you are claiming, so what?"You have added the qualifier that the tradition can only be maintained by Jews.....which to us is heresy and really makes your question rather loaded, does it not? It's like asking us to play soccer but saying that only you can use the ball. Summary: Jews are the founders of the tradition,the tradition is Jewish, and Jewish should keep their own traditions within the multi-national Church. This is Christianity.

In your promotion of Judaism above in which you said- If you follow the logic of Judaism to its end, Judaism was created for the gentile, like plumbers were created for the home-owner. We here to perform a service to Mankind that is much greater than the return it provides to us."

You in fact have proven logically (if you follow the logic) that the Messianic religion will benefit all of mankind. I put it to you that the Messianic religion is here and is even now benefitting all mankind. Christianity is the logical end of the Judaism you believe in.

kivi says: "Well, you'll have to come up with some sources for that claim. No doubt there have been righteous gentiles all thorugh history. But often at the private level and almost always at the institutional level, the aggressive and violent nature of the Christian relation with Judaism is very well documented. I'll stand by that documentation/history."What- you don't have libraries or Google where you live, and I should walk you through it? Perhaps make an effort yourself and see what you come up with. If you get stuck, then I'll help.

So, what yo are really saying is that there is no Chirstian community that was also a Jewish community that has an unbroken tradition from the late 2nd Temple period to the present."Of course not. Where in the scriptures does it say that such a movement would be a necessary result of the Messiah's advent? Nowhere. Even the Priesthood would be opened to Gentiles according to the Prophets. The Messiah brought "one new man" (in a spiritual sense) into existence, and the Gentiles are ingrafted into the blessings and faith of Israel- that is Messianic. Therefore, the religion you look forward to ("being of service to the Gentiles") is again fulfilled in Christianity- but not in the way you want it.

I put it to you that the Rabbis have always wanted Moshiach on their own terms, not on HaShem's. Unfortunately for them and those who follow them, they continue to disagree among themselves on what exactly He will bring and they continue to wait for what they want from Him.

Anyway- individual Jews have always been involved in the church. This is easily proven and when more and more Jews accept Yeshua as Moshiach they will restore and reform the Church, bringing back their charism and theology- this is my belief and the belief of many.

kivi says: "And, to be honest, that just does not count. With gentiles practicing Jewish stuff, it stops being Jewish. Their intent was not Jewish, their knowledge was not Jewish. They had no effective manner of not dropping out important and critical information, the non-Jewish stuff that does get dragged in fatally infects what was remaining. If the tradition is broken, if there is not a continous chain over the generations of people with both intent and knowledge, it just does not count because it does not work."Everything you said there is relative and demands proof- which you in fact cannot give nor would I expect you to. You can give answers- but are they any good?

What makes no logical sense to me is this: if a Gentile worships as a Noachide, then by your logic, this would not be "Jewish" either, and thus invalid. I don't think you've thought this through.

<theological tangent snipped for brevity>

CM says: "However, some of the laws that the Rabbis have made are pretty awful and clearly not spiritual- consider the law that a Jew cannot save a Gentile's life unless the Gentile pays him."

kivi says: "Not true."What? Are you serious? Of course it's true. It's a well known negative commandment. Pick up any orthodox summary of the mitzvot and it's right there.

Let me quote:

"It's a negative commandment to have mercy on idol worshippers"

as scripture says nor shall you show mercy to them (Devarim 7:2). If someone sees an idol worshipper drowning, he is not to save him. In his illness, he is not to cure him. If he is afraid of him, or if there is the consideration of [consequent] emnity, let him cure him for a fee, but not for nothing. It is, however, forbidden to end the man's life with one's own hands or to push him into the pit, and so on, if the other makes no hostile attack against him. One is not to give him any free gift, nor is one to speak his praise, and all the more certainly not in praise of his actions.

This is in effect everywhere, in every time, for both man and woman"

(Negative mitzvah #20; The Concise Book of Mitzvoth; Compiled by The Chafetz Chayim [Rabbi Yisrael Meir haKohen] Feldheim, 1990, p 117)

This is no sloppy source, as you would agree.

kivi says: Well, unless you are a member of a group that has a different take on the Old Testament, in the Jewish Tradition, all of the 1st 5 Books of Moses including Devarim are direct quotes from G-d and have nothing to do with the Rabbis. So, the question is the spiritual condition of the Hittites, etc, in the Mitzvahs in Devarim 7. And, according to Torah, their spiritual condition was worse than the Egyptians which was as bad as it could get. They had lost the Land because of ther total spiritual failure. We are talking the moral equivalent of the Chinese Communists, the Russian Communists, the Khmer Rouge, the Rwandian genocide perpetrators, the Muslim terrorists, the Nazis, the Russian Orthodox, Henry Ford, the KKK, etc etc etc, all roled into one."That's not what the Rabbis say, as I have demonstrated. Yours would be a much fairer interpretation, but obviously at odds with the orthodox Rabbis.

CM says: "Then, a Rabbi will tell you that Judaism is a religion that "loves life above all". Double talk. There's mitzvot that bid us to treat an animal of a Jew with more mercy than a Gentile."

kviv says: "Not true."What? Again- I'll use the same book, since I have it out at present.

"It is a positive commandment to unload the domestic animal of one's fellow-man that is lying under its burden"

as scripture says, if you see the donkey of one that you hate lying under its burden....you shall surely help with him (Shemoth 23:5)- even if there was on it a larger load than was fit for it. It is one's duty to unload it for nothing, without payment...."

(Positive commandment #70; ibid. p. 87)

So, here's the angle. If some guy you hate has a donkey looking overworked, you have to help the poor donkey. Fair enough. But, if your neighbour's kid is sick, or drowning, you have to ask him how much he's prepared to cough up to save him.

kivi says: "Well, 'anyone' is a pretty big word. In my seminary courses at Union Theological, the Law, in Paul's understanding, was damning because it could not be not broken. So it always led to death."Get your money back.

The scriptures are clearer than your lecturers.

(BTW- We all got taught things in seminary we at the time or later disagreed with. The good thing is that we are allowed to question them Acts 17:11)

CM says: “I think it's an open and shut case that some of modern day Rabbinic Judaism is actually not from Israel, but from Babylon."

kivi says: Well, then get to the door and start opening and shutting it."

Right now, I'm doing all the work.....when are you gonna answer my question?

CM: "Perhaps you ought to tend to your own tradition before you critique ours?”

Kivi says: "I am not permitted by the rules of your own forum to critique yours."

Well, it seems that we are letting a fair bit slip by- this is no problem for me.

CM says: “I came out of the "observant" community and know well the claims they present. I think some of what passes for Judaism these days is neither verifyable or falsifiable- so it's just pure baseless dark ages tradition enshrined by a group of people.

Kivi says: “Well, those are strong claims, any evidence?”

Sefirot. Prove Abraham was given this teaching from HaShem, as claimed, otherwise, accept the fact that it was just a pious opinion until the Zohar. Then we'll move onto reincarnation and Kabbalah. Please don't deny that these things are acceptable to the orthodox (like someone tried to before).

CM says: "Well, perhaps it is best to first address the claims I have already spoken of. Let's start with "who actually wrote the Sefer Yetzirah?"

kivi says: "And......."Well, could you answer that?

kivi says: "Well, my experience with Christianity does not match yours. The Protestant have issues with the Catholics who have issues with the Orthodox who have issues with the Jehovah Witnesses who have issues with the 7th Day Adventists and all have issues with the Mormons who have issues with themselves>you get the drift. I have spent a lot of time on anti missionary groups chat rooms and the Christians who come to those groups to 'spread' the word spend as much time damning some other Christian denomination as they do trying to get us to convert. Its pretty pitiful."
Fine. We'll just have to do better than the people who frequent sites dedicated to slagging the Church (which I have always found hilarious).

[kivi]

HaReb sys: "I must object, though, that JW's and Mormons are lumped together with Christians - they are not, and never will be, Christian, unless thy change their belief system quite dramatically! The other groups fit the term 'Christian' to one extent or another."

kivvi says: "Well, to this outsider, you have just proved my point. They claim to be Christian and you say they aren't. That was the point I was making."

[HaReb]

Lulav,

i think it's to be cautious how we judge for with the same measure we also shall be judged,

I do not see the problem... Y'shua says that we should only judge in righteousness, not in solely human terms. Let's be clear that we shall ALL be judged, of that there is no mistake, the question raised is the motive behind the judging, NOT the fact of actually judging. What is being said here is that if you, as a believer, judge someone else in an unrighteous manner, then the WORLD will judge you in the same way. If you judge in righteousness - G_d will judge you, not the world (see 1 Corinthians 11:30-32)

Folk often say we should not judge lest we be judged - so? We shall be judged whether or not we judge others - so let's not put this false reponse forward :) it gives others a false sense of spiritual security. This is what Sha'ul meant when he said we should work out our own salvation with fear and trembling - understand things with spiritual senses (Ephesians 3:14-19 - the extra 'dimension' Sha'al struggles to show is the spiritual one. He could see and understand not just in 3D as we do, but in 4D) Does anyone really think that if they do not judge anyone they will themselves escape judgement? Mattityahu 7 says otherwise - even for some who seem ultra pious.

[HaReb]

They claim to be Christian and you say they aren't


My point is that YOU claimed them to be Christian. You haven't made your point because to do so you would have to claim that all the groups you mentioned are all Christian, since your argument centres on Christianity fighting itself.

Anyone who knows even the basic tenets of belief for Christianity will immediately see the error in what you have claimed. If you intend to defend your claim please show how and why you consider Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons as Christians - I could do with a good read! :)

[HaReb]

Just to clarify - I am not, above, accusing Lulav of putting forward a false response...it is a general observation, following on from responding (rather lately as my connection to the site seems troublesome!) to what she did say, highlighting a possible danger of extending the logic that some use on this issue.

[visionary]

Things were more black and white in those days.. so the punishment may seem harsh, but living in those times was harsh and rigid rules gave consistence and stability to the society.

[kivi]

kivi said: "They claim to be Christian and you say they aren't"

HaReb says: "My point is that YOU claimed them to be Christian. You haven't made your point because to do so you would have to claim that all the groups you mentioned are all Christian, since your argument centres on Christianity fighting itself.

Anyone who knows even the basic tenets of belief for Christianity will immediately see the error in what you have claimed. If you intend to defend your claim please show how and why you consider Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons as Christians - I could do with a good read! :)"

kivi says: "No, I am not judging who is a Christain, I am presenting what they say about themselves. Mormon's are quite clear that they think they are Christian, JW are quite clear that they think they are Christian. If you say they are not, then the arguement is between you and them, not me and you. Who gets to decide who is or who is not a Christian? To be honest, for a Jew, the distinction is Jew and gentile and in the term gentile, anybody who is not a Jew, which means Hindu and Christian and Buddhist and Muslim and Shinto and Toaist and etc etc. So, for us to decide who is and who is not a Christian or who is and who is not a Muslim or etc etc etc would be arrogant and impolite. So, we stand apart and seperate from the arguments that other religions have within themselves. Its just not our business. The 1st Israeli ambassador to the UN was born in Belfast Ireland. He said the he became a diplomate watching his father. His family was the only Jewish family on his block and the only place the Catholics and Protestants could meet when they had to dsicuss neighborhood issues. As I remember my history both Catholics and Protestants spend a lot of time and blood proving that the other was not a Christian. As have Orthodox and Catholics [the Schism & more recently, part of the Yugoslavian Civil War] & Episcopalians and Baptists [Virgina Amendment on Religious Freedom] and, now adays, Episcopalians and Episcopalians [gay rights], etc etc etc. So I'll not defend, I have no dog in the fight and I really don't need another post graduate degree.
__________________

[kivi]

CM your last post is quite a challenge. I have a conference in NYC and I am coming from So Cal, red eyeing Thrusday to NYC and red eyeing it back on Sunday. So, if it is OK with you, I'm not going to get back to you until next Weds. You are quite a person to talk with, it is really making me stretch my mind. With best regards, kivi

[HaReb]

Kivi

Perhaps you have been listening to the diplomat too much - now I know why the answer really doesn't address the point of the question! Not sure what the Post-grad comment is all about!

BTW - it has been said that the definition of a true diplomat is one who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that you think you'll enjoy the journey!!!

[HaReb]

Talking about judging, returning to Lulav's and my postings - it is interesting to see that the strap line below Christian Forums, includes the text "where two or three are gathered". In Scripture, that quote is given in relation to judging fellow believers (it is a part of Ma[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ahu 18). Now I know why we have so much bickering on the forum - it appears to be encouraged :D

How daft - we can no longer give Hebrew names for some Biblical characters :scratch:

[ContraMundum]

CM your last post is quite a challenge. I have a conference in NYC and I am coming from So Cal, red eyeing Thrusday to NYC and red eyeing it back on Sunday. So, if it is OK with you, I'm not going to get back to you until next Weds. You are quite a person to talk with, it is really making me stretch my mind. With best regards, kivi


Thank you for the compliment. Take your time...it's all good and keep safe during your schlep to the other coast!

[kivi]

To HaReb: the post graduate comment referred to the fact that my Master's in History is about the 2nd Great Awakening/the Burnt Over District in upper state New York, 1830-40. So, to define the basic tenets of Christianity would require, for this Jew, to do another post grad degree in a Christian subject. One is enough. (:-)>

[kivi]

Dear CM, sorry it took so long to get back to you. But, as I said, your post was a real challenge and I didn’t want to just rip off an off-handed reply, but consider what you said with care and deliberation. I hope that I have met the challenge of your post. This is part one of my reply; with best regards, kivi



kivi says: "Now really, you are comparing the Noachite movement to the multi-billion dollar Christian missionary effort around the world?

CM replies: “I don't think I did draw such a comparison. This is apples and oranges. Christianity is a missionary religion. That's clear. It's not hidden. However, Judaism claims to be a non-missionary religion- yet more and more we see anti-missionary activity linked to the Noachide movement and vice-versa. In fact, the Noachide movement publishes tracts and everything. They'll never compete with Christianity, but then again, they don't really have an urgent message of salvation like Christianity.”
Kivi says; well, you have answered your own question. Since there is no requirement to be Jewish to go to Heaven and active membership in Christianity meets the minimum requirements of the 7 Mitzvahs of the Torah of Noach, there is no reason to evangelize. And it isn’t done. For those who are interested and seek out the Noachite movement, well, of course, there is literature and teachings and information. But evangelism is aggressive and proactive and involves a serious outreach effort, activities that the Noachite movement does not engage in. To compare the Noachite movement with Christian evangelism is to so serious stretch/distort the definition of evangelism as to make it meaningless.”
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Kivi says: "Well, I'll be interested, but for real, unless you can show a continous unbroken tradition of a Christian community that is also a practicing Jewish community from the time of the late 2nd Temple to the present, I'll just not be all that impressed.”

CM replies: “I can easily prove an unbroken tradition, easily. That's not going to satisfy you unless the people in charge are the right ethnicty though...so perhaps you should try a different forum? Proper Christian tradition, unbroken and ancient, is a religion without racism.”

kivi says: And so is Judaism. Ethnicity and race are not the same. And nationality is different, too. All of the recognized races [and probably ethnic groups] are members of B’nai Israel, through birth or conversions/naturalization. There is nothing racist about Judaism; it has accepted converts from all races. There is something nationalistic about Judaism since the prime mode of membership is birth. But that is hardly racist, which makes birth the only way condition of membership. But what is your complaint with nationalistic? Consider the USA. You have to be born of an American citizen or you have to born on American soil or you have to be naturalized according to US law. Is that racist? No. So, Judaism says you have to be born of a Jewish mother or be naturalized/converted according to Torah Law. Nothing racist there. Judaism has never claimed to be a faith based religion. It sees the world created by G-d with distinct national characteristics, each of the 70 nations with their own special calling from G-d to do His work. It sees these characteristics as created by G-d in the souls of the people of each of the 70 nations and it sees that these characteristics from the 70 Nations, taken together like a great and wondrous symphony orchestra, are the purpose of G-d’s Creation, all of them necessary for the fulfillment of each, all in service to each other, all completing each other, none better or exclusive or superior.”
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kivi says: “To a great part, we hold our legitimacy is based on our unbroken and continous Tradition from Matan Torah to the present. Unless there is an equivilant in what you are claiming, so what?"

CM replies: “You have added the qualifier that the tradition can only be maintained by Jews.....which to us is heresy and really makes your question rather loaded, does it not? It's like asking us to play soccer but saying that only you can use the ball. Summary: Jews are the founders of the tradition,the tradition is Jewish, and Jewish should keep their own traditions within the multi-national Church. This is Christianity.”

Kivi says: “Jews as a distinct group disappear when they assimilate. The historical record is clear. Jews are never part of the “multi-national Church.” They do not pass on their characteristics to the next generation. Maybe Slovaks do or maybe Poles do or maybe Scots do, but not Jews. Only the Jewish Tradition can be maintained by Jews. Now, heresy is a big word, but I never claimed there weren’t differences between Judaism and Christianity, differences so great as to make it impossible to claim the one equivalent to the other. They are not. I fully agree with you that if you are one, then you can not be the other.”

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kivi says: “If you follow the logic of Judaism to its end, Judaism was created for the gentile, like plumbers were created for the home-owner. We here to perform a service to Mankind that is much greater than the return it provides to us."


CM replies: “You in fact have proven logically (if you follow the logic) that the Messianic religion will benefit all of mankind. I put it to you that the Messianic religion is here and is even now benefitting all mankind. Christianity is the logical end of the Judaism you believe in.”
Kivi says: “There is no doubt that Judaism is the original messianic religion, it invented the concept. However, given the rules of this forum, I can not reply to the rest of your statement with integrity on my part without causing a RV and getting kicked out. So, I’ll pass.”
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kivi says: "Well, you'll have to come up with some sources for that claim. No doubt there have been righteous gentiles all thorugh history. But often at the private level and almost always at the institutional level, the aggressive and violent nature of the Christian relation with Judaism is very well documented. I'll stand by that documentation/history."

CM: “What- you don't have libraries or Google where you live, and I should walk you through it? Perhaps make an effort yourself and see what you come up with. If you get stuck, then I'll help.”
Kivi says: “I’ve done the research. I stand by my original statement.”
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kivi says: “So, what you are really saying is that there is no Christian community that was also a Jewish community that has an unbroken tradition from the late 2nd Temple period to the present."

CM replies: “Of course not. Where in the scriptures does it say that such a movement would be a necessary result of the Messiah's advent? Nowhere. Even the Priesthood would be opened to Gentiles according to the Prophets. The Messiah brought "one new man" (in a spiritual sense) into existence, and the Gentiles are ingrafted into the blessings and faith of Israel- that is Messianic. Therefore, the religion you look forward to ("being of service to the Gentiles") is again fulfilled in Christianity- but not in the way you want it.”
Kivi says: “There is no need to be ‘ingrafted’ into a system that already includes the gentile. “All of B’nai Israel and the righteous of the Nations have a portion in Olam Habah.” All humanity is already part of G-d’s system. There is no part of humanity that is excluded. ‘Ingrafting’ is an irrelevant goal, like grafting an orange branch onto an orange tree.”

CM says: “I put it to you that the Rabbis have always wanted Moshiach on their own terms, not on HaShem's. Unfortunately for them and those who follow them, they continue to disagree among themselves on what exactly He will bring and they continue to wait for what they want from Him.”
Kivi says: “Given the 1000s and 1000s of different sects of Christianity, you statement about disagreement within Judaism is hardly telling. When Christianity cleans up its act, then I think you can talk about disagreements within Judaism, but not until then. Moreover, there is not disagreement, merely humility. We are clear as to the distinctions of Moshiach. I think that if I go into them here, I’ll get a RV so I’ll pass, again. Exactly what Olam Habah will look like, G-d has not shared with us in a way that ‘nails it down’. We are OK with that. But we to trust G-d that what does come will be good for every human who has ever lived, there will be a positive outcome for all of humanity, individually and collectively.”
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CM says: “Anyway-individual Jews have always been involved in the church. This is easily proven and when more and more Jews accept Yeshua as Moshiach they will restore and reform the Church, bringing back their charism and theology- this is my belief and the belief of many.”
Kivi replies: “Yes, that is true. Our experience with such is hardly as favorable.”
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kivi says: "And, to be honest, that just does not count. With gentiles practicing Jewish stuff, it stops being Jewish. Their intent was not Jewish, their knowledge was not Jewish. They had no effective manner of not dropping out important and critical information, the non-Jewish stuff that does get dragged in fatally infects what was remaining. If the tradition is broken, if there is not a continuous chain over the generations of people with both intent and knowledge, it just does not count because it does not work."

CM says: “Everything you said there is relative and demands proof- which you in fact cannot give nor would I expect you to. You can give answers- but are they any good?”
Kivi says: “I think so. And I think the history of Christianity is great evidence for what I said. Also, look later in this discussion, you have given a great example of my statement.”
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CM says: “What makes no logical sense to me is this: if a Gentile worships as a Noachide, then by your logic, this would not be "Jewish" either, and thus invalid. I don't think you've thought this through.”
Kivi says: “That is only true if you believe that you have to be Jewish to worship G-d. We don’t think so. ‘All of B’nai Israel and the Righteous of the Nations have a portion in Olam Habah.”

[kivi]

Dear CM: This is part two of my reply; again, sorry it took up so much space, but these are important matters we are discussing and I wanted to do justice to the content of your statement, with best regards, kivi
CM says: "However, some of the laws that the Rabbis have made are pretty awful and clearly not spiritual- consider the law that a Jew cannot save a Gentile's life unless the Gentile pays him."

kivi says: "Not true."
CM says: “What? Are you serious? Of course it's true. It's a well known negative commandment. Pick up any orthodox summary of the mitzvot and it's right there.”
Kivi says: Your quoting of The Chafetz Chayim is great proof for what I just said earlier: “With gentiles practicing Jewish stuff, it stops being Jewish. Their intent was not Jewish, their knowledge was not Jewish. They had no effective manner of not dropping out important and critical information, the non-Jewish stuff that does get dragged in fatally infects what was remaining. If the tradition is broken, if there is not a continuous chain over the generations of people with both intent and knowledge, it just does not count because it does not work.

1st, all gentiles are not idol worshippers and to imply they are is a slander to gentiles. 2nd, Christians and Muslims are definitely not idol worshippers. The proof of that is that no Orthodox Jew goes by the interpretation of The Chafetz Chayim when it comes to dealings with Christians because it does not apply to Christians.. 3rd, the type of idol worshipper that Devarim and The Chafetz Chayim is talking about is at level of spiritual power just not found in the world today. In comparison to the type of spiritual power that the Canaanites, the Babylonians and the Egyptians had, back in the day, to what is available today, even in the worse of the current, is just not possible. Current stuff is just small potatoes. The quote you are giving just does not apply to the group of people you are laying it on. This is why all Torah learning has to take place within a Torah environment so that important and critical information is not lost and errors of judgment can be corrected in a community environment.”

CM gives the quote: “Let me quote:

"It's a negative commandment to have mercy on idol worshippers"

as scripture says nor shall you show mercy to them (Devarim 7:2). If someone sees an idol worshipper drowning, he is not to save him. In his illness, he is not to cure him. If he is afraid of him, or if there is the consideration of [consequent] emnity, let him cure him for a fee, but not for nothing. It is, however, forbidden to end the man's life with one's own hands or to push him into the pit, and so on, if the other makes no hostile at