do you think John the Baptist was our founder?

[CrystalBrooke]

do any of you think or would like to think that John the Baptist is our founder? if you answer this i would really appreciate it if you gave reason for your answer.

[Iollain]

Jesus is the founder of the Christian Faith.

[GreenEyedLady]

Jesus is the founder of the Christian Faith.I second that.

[Sword-In-Hand]

Third on that. John was called the Baptist because He baptised people, not because he followed th Baptist faith.

[BjBarnett]

you would be suprised how many people believe it though...

[FreeinChrist]

do any of you think or would like to think that John the Baptist is our founder? if you answer this i would really appreciate it if you gave reason for your answer.
No.
John the Baptist was a prophet who was to announce that Christ was coming, had come. He preached repentence and baptised for repentence, but that baptism was not salvation. John died before the crucifixtion, and even John was not 'saved' until Christ paid the penalty for sin on the cross.

Baptists are called 'baptists' for the way we baptize, but our founder is Christ, since we are memebers of body of Christ. Anabaptists are called that because they insisted on rebaptiszing those who had been baptized as infants. But same with them, their founder is Christ.

[theseed]

Founder of what? Christ is the founder of Chrisitianity. I do believe that Christian baptism is based on John's baptism. Those he baptized did not have to be rebaptized.

[BjBarnett]

Founder of what? Christ is the founder of Chrisitianity. I do believe that Christian baptism is based on John's baptism. Those he baptized did not have to be rebaptized.

I think shes asking if any of you guys think that John the Baptist founded the Baptist church.

[theseed]

I think shes asking if any of you guys think that John the Baptist founded the Baptist church.
That would place the Baptist denomination before the ministry of Christ, and before his Death, Ressuretion, and Asension.

[theseed]

How could John not be saved even though he had the indwellng of the Holy Spirit from birth?

[Iollain]

you would be suprised how many people believe it though...
I didn't know the RC thought that, i've never heard of it and i've been around Baptists and RCs all my life.

[GreenEyedLady]

I didn't know the RC thought that, i've never heard of it and i've been around Baptists and RCs all my life.
I second that again...........Never heard of John the Baptist founding the Baptist church.
Who came up with that idea? :scratch:

[Iollain]

I don't know, the bible clearly states that Jesus is the Head:

Eph1
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Colossians 2
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
(((the Head in this verse means Jesus)))

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

[CrystalBrooke]

i have heard it before, personally i dont believe it, i wanted to know what the majority thought.

[BjBarnett]

I didn't know the RC thought that, i've never heard of it and i've been around Baptists and RCs all my life.

the RCC doesnt teach it. Im just saying ive actually heard people state it as fact :confused:

[FreeinChrist]

How could John not be saved even though he had the indwellng of the Holy Spirit from birth?Many prophets in the OT had the Holy Spirit indwell them at times for the purpose of prophecy. But no one was 'saved' per se until Christ paid the penalty for sin, which He paid from Adam to the Second Coming.

I don't believe that John the Baptist had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as we now have it. For one, Jesus said the Comforter could not come until He went to his Father:

Jhn 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

Jhn 14:17 {that is} the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, {but} you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Jhn 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

Two, if beleivers in God had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit all the time before the death and resurrection of Christ, what was the purpose of the Day of Pentecost?


John had faith...so when the price was paid, he and the other OT saints were saved from sheol (abraham's bosum).
Hbr 11:39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,

Hbr 11:40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

[FreeinChrist]

the RCC doesnt teach it. Im just saying ive actually heard people state it as fact :confused:
They are mistaken.

[eldermike]

Jesus was the first pastor of the Christian church. He used the title "shepherd" many times, but He was the shepherd that "gives life" all shepherd's to come after Christ, (pastors), will have to point to Jesus, pointing to anything else will not lead to life. Jesus is the founder, anyone called to shepherd a flock, that points that flock to Jesus, the one that gives life, is part of His church.

[d0c markus]

At an Independant baptist church in Missouri, i've heard this preached... Baptist rehtoric, it got the congregation pumped..

"in the greek it wasnt John the Baptist, just John Baptist!!!!!!!!!!"

Instead of giving a hearty amen with the crowd, i just had to laugh. It was usually said after making a point about other denoms, and it was always inferred that John the baptist founded the denomination. All though if i were to question him on that I dont think he would say JOhn founded the denomination. Hmm.

[bleechers]

Much truth has already been said here...

Jesus called John the friend of the Bridegroom. John, as an OT-economy prophet, was not part of the Bride (i.e. the church).

I think the title "John the Baptizer" is more accurate.

Good thoughts, all! :)

[@@Paul@@]

Founder of what? Christ is the founder of Chrisitianity. I do believe that Christian baptism is based on John's baptism. Those he baptized did not have to be rebaptized.
Those John Baptized did need to be re-baptized.

John's baptism was to get people believing on Who was to come,,, The baptism during Acts was in believing on Who had come...
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

[theseed]

Those John Baptized did need to be re-baptized.

John's baptism was to get people believing on Who was to come,,, The baptism during Acts was in believing on Who had come...
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
False, show me where John's disiples had to be rebaptized? There are none. The Apostles did not rebaptize them.

[theseed]

One question that deals with this issue is this: who baptized Jesus' disciples into Christian baptism? It could not have been Jesus (Jn. 4:1-2). John baptized at least Andrew and another disciple (Jn. 1:35,40), yet there is no record of their rebaptism by Jesus or by others at Pentecost. Apollos is another case of one of John's disciples of whom there is no record of rebaptism into Christian baptism (Acts 18:24-28). In fact, at Pentecost, only those conversing with Peter and who received his word were baptized (Acts 2:37-42). It appears that the disciples of Christ and the 120 in the upper room were not rebaptized into Christian baptism because it would have been repetitious for these believers to ask, "Brethren, what shall we do?" In fact, these 120 may have helped baptize the 3,000

The only possible case for rebaptism in the New Testament is in Acts 19:1-7 (and Calvin disagrees). It seems that these disciples of John's baptism did not have the whole message of John about Jesus and the Holy Spirit when they were baptized. Perhaps they received it secondhand. Therefore, they were rebaptized into Christ by Paul. Calvin says that this rebaptism was not necessarily by water but by Christ's baptism with the Holy Spirit. He points to Paul's action of laying on hands and no mention of water to support his position. There is much disagreement on this text. But if we say John's baptism was not sufficient for Christian baptism, we still have the problems presented by Apollos' baptism, which was seemingly accepted by Aquila and Priscilla at Ephesus, and by the baptism of the faithful before Pentecost.


http://www.founders.org/library/malone1/malone_text.html

[@@Paul@@]

False, show me where John's disiples had to be rebaptized? There are none. The Apostles did not rebaptize them.
I would like to hear everyone's interpretation of these verses...
Act 19:1-6 KJV
(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
(2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
(3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
(4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

[theseed]

Act 19:1-6 KJV
(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
(2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
(3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
(4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

[@@Paul@@]

Act 19:1-6 KJV
(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
(2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
(3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
(4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
So those who believed AND were baptised under John's message of repentance (verse 3,4), where baptized again in the name OF the Lord Jesus Christ... (verse 5)
............AND THEN Paul laid his hands on them AND they were baptized with the Holy Ghost, the baptism of fire... (verse 6)

Are you saying the baptism in verse 5 was not in water?

[GreenEyedLady]

So those who believed AND were baptised under John's message of repentance (verse 3,4), where baptized again in the name OF the Lord Jesus Christ... (verse 5)
............AND THEN Paul laid his hands on them AND they were baptized with the Holy Ghost, the baptism of fire... (verse 6)

Are you saying the baptism in verse 5 was not in water?
You are correct Paul, Those who were baptized with Johns Baptism were rebaptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ!

[theseed]

Are you saying the baptism in verse 5 was not in water?

Yes. There is no indication of water, but in fact simply the Holy Spirit. There is even more proof beyond this that the Gospel began with John the Baptist. Mark says so. Also, John baptized with water , but Chist baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

[@@Paul@@]

Yes. There is no indication of water, but in fact simply the Holy Spirit. There is even more proof beyond this that the Gospel began with John the Baptist. Mark says so. Also, John baptized with water , but Chist baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
There but is also more than one gospel.... Gospel as we all know, means "good news"........

Peter was sent baptizing with water, just like John was.

[PaladinGirl]

No, John the Baptist did not found the Baptist denominations.

[theseed]

There but is also more than one gospel.... Gospel as we all know, means "good news"........

Peter was sent baptizing with water, just like John was.
There is only one true Gospel--thath of Jesus Christ. The beginng of the Gospel begins with John the Baptist! See Mark 1.1

There is no evidence that John's disples had to be rebaptized with water, in the bible.

[theseed]

See #6 on this link.

http://www.founders.org/library/malone1/malone_text.html#6

[@@Paul@@]

There is only one true Gospel--thath of Jesus Christ. The beginng of the Gospel begins with John the Baptist! See Mark 1.1

There is no evidence that John's disples had to be rebaptized with water, in the bible.
seed,,, Are you pre, post or A-millenial?

[theseed]

seed,,, Are you pre, post or A-millenial?
I lean towards the premill. position.

[@@Paul@@]

I lean towards the premill. position.
Thanks,,, just wondering.

God Bless..

P.S. Me too. :)