Which law came 430 years later?

[k4c]

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

Is this law referring to the ceremonial law having to do with sacrifice or is it referring to the law given at Mt.Sinai seen in the Ten Commandments?

What are your thoughts?

Please give Scripture proof.

[TrustAndObey]

I'd say it was the laws of atonement, sacrifice, etc.

My scriptural proof is that murder was wrong when Cain murdered Abel.

Sodom and Gomorrah had grievous sins before Mt. Sinai.

And Noah and his family were the only family spared from the flood.

Sin was obviously around before Mt. Sinai.

The atonement for sin came into play though....and BEFORE that Abraham kept the mitsvah and the towrah.

[k4c]

I'd say it was the laws of atonement, sacrifice, etc.

My scriptural proof is that murder was wrong when Cain murdered Abel.

Sodom and Gomorrah had grievous sins before Mt. Sinai.

And Noah and his family were the only family spared from the flood.

Sin was obviously around before Mt. Sinai.

The atonement for sin came into play though....and BEFORE that Abraham kept the mitsvah and the towrah.

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning...

[TrustAndObey]

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning...

Well, it's like we talked about in another thread.

Without law there is no sin. The law on stone has ALWAYS been God's will for His people and that's evident by the murder of Abel being very much against God's will, way before the law was written on stone on Sinai.

It wasn't on stone yet, but those people talked directly with God. They knew His will.

In Genesis 26:5, it says "Because that Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments (mitsvah), My statutes (chaqquh), and My laws (towrah)."

It starts with BECAUSE ('eqeb) which means reward, consequence, gain....BECAUSE Abraham kept My commandments....the reason he was receiving the promise in Gen 26:4.

All of that was before the ceremonial law was given to atone for sins.

The flood was the result of violence on the earth (against each other...not loving our neighbours as ourselves). That wasn't a "law" then as on stone or uttered from Jesus, but obviously the people knew it and disobeyed anyway.

God would not wipe out an entire planet of people for doing something He never told them NOT to do, amen?

The promised covenant with Abraham was also with his son Isaac, and Isaac's son Israel (Jacob).

Exodus 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

1 Cr 16:13 O ye seed of Israel His servant, ye children of Jacob, His chosen ones. 14 He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all the earth. 15 Be ye mindful always of His covenant; the word which He commanded to a thousand generations; 16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of His oath unto Isaac; 17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

The children of Israel (Jacob) had to obey Pharaoh while in captivity, but even once they were out of captivity and God gave them His directive will, they still disobeyed (Exodus 16).

Laws that already existed had to be written on stone for them, because they were a stubborn and rebellious generation, and other laws were added to atone for sin until the Seed (Christ) would come. (Gal 3:19 I believe).

Numbers 32:11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed Me:

God gave Abraham a promised covenant and Jacob (Israel) pretty much broke the promise even though he and his children inherited it. They had to enter into a commanded covenant at that point but it didn't change the promise given to Abraham.

Abraham obeyed through faith, the children of Israel didn't obey at all.

Numbers 32:13 And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.

Look how many chances God gave the children of Jacob before He decided to enact a new covenant. Chance after chance after chance.

They dropped the ball. We're doing the same thing today.

They (the children of Jacob/Israel) promised they'd obey God's commanded covenant, but they didn't. The "better" promises aren't God's promises for His promises are always perfect.

Sin was around before Mt. Sinai. The laws added 430 years after Abraham were a result of the rebellious children of Jacob....but it didn't change the promise. We are heirs to the promise, through Christ.

[TrustAndObey]

Some people hate it when they say I "proof text", but some texts are proof of something, no? HA!

Exodus 12:40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.

Hello, sing it with me now....

[TrustAndObey]

That's when the COMMANDED covenant began, but that does not mean that the law wasn't around before then!

[k4c]

Well, it's like we talked about in another thread.

Without law there is no sin. The law on stone has ALWAYS been God's will for His people and that's evident by the murder of Abel being very much against God's will, way before the law was written on stone on Sinai.

It wasn't on stone yet, but those people talked directly with God. They knew His will.

In Genesis 26:5, it says "Because that Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments (mitsvah), My statutes (chaqquh), and My laws (towrah)."

It starts with BECAUSE ('eqeb) which means reward, consequence, gain....BECAUSE Abraham kept My commandments....the reason he was receiving the promise in Gen 26:4.

All of that was before the ceremonial law was given to atone for sins.

The flood was the result of violence on the earth (against each other...not loving our neighbours as ourselves). That wasn't a "law" then as on stone or uttered from Jesus, but obviously the people knew it and disobeyed anyway.

God would not wipe out an entire planet of people for doing something He never told them NOT to do, amen?

The promised covenant with Abraham was also with his son Isaac, and Isaac's son Israel (Jacob).

Exodus 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

1 Cr 16:13 O ye seed of Israel His servant, ye children of Jacob, His chosen ones. 14 He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all the earth. 15 Be ye mindful always of His covenant; the word which He commanded to a thousand generations; 16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of His oath unto Isaac; 17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

The children of Israel (Jacob) had to obey Pharaoh while in captivity, but even once they were out of captivity and God gave them His directive will, they still disobeyed (Exodus 16).

Laws that already existed had to be written on stone for them, because they were a stubborn and rebellious generation, and other laws were added to atone for sin until the Seed (Christ) would come. (Gal 3:19 I believe).

Numbers 32:11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed Me:

God gave Abraham a promised covenant and Jacob (Israel) pretty much broke the promise even though he and his children inherited it. They had to enter into a commanded covenant at that point but it didn't change the promise given to Abraham.

Abraham obeyed through faith, the children of Israel didn't obey at all.

Numbers 32:13 And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.

Look how many chances God gave the children of Jacob before He decided to enact a new covenant. Chance after chance after chance.

They dropped the ball. We're doing the same thing today.

They (the children of Jacob/Israel) promised they'd obey God's commanded covenant, but they didn't. The "better" promises aren't God's promises for His promises are always perfect.

Sin was around before Mt. Sinai. The laws added 430 years after Abraham were a result of the rebellious children of Jacob....but it didn't change the promise. We are heirs to the promise, through Christ.

I'm not sure if I understand...:scratch:

Do you believe the law in Galatians 3 is referring to the ceremonial law? If this is what you believe than show me how you came to this using the context of the Galatians 3. It's important to be able to justify why we believe what we believe using Scripture context.

If it's referring to the Ten Commandments than what does it mean when it says, it was added until the seed comes?

Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Do you think that once the seed came we are now under a different set of rules such as the words of Christ, which is faith?

Galatians 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

If this is not so than tell me why.

My thought is that the Ten Commandments have two purposes. One, to teach what is righteous and two, to show us how to love God and neighbor.

When dealing with sin the law speaks to righteousness but as to relationship, the law speaks to love.

Since Christ has come, the law is no longer a means to rightousness for Christ becomes our righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

But this does not do away with the law as means to relationship and the expression of godly love.

1 John 5:1-3 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

When the law for the pupose of righteousness is obsolete a huge burden is lifted off our shoulders. This allows us to freely obey the law through love without fear of condemnation for past sins because of grace and without fear of the law for future sins because of mercy.

Because of Christ the law now becomes the means to love from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

We no longer see the law as a hard task master to be right with God, but rather, as a means to bless God and neighbor.

[TrustAndObey]

As I mentioned in PM, I have limited time today before class, plus my heart is sad today for my friend Sarah (IntoTheCrimsonSky), who just lost her dad this morning.

This may get a little scatter-brained, but I hope not.

The law that was given 430 years after the promise to Abraham wasn't just the law on stone. It was also the law of consequence for breaking the law. They received a set of laws to atone for sin (ceremonial law)which is now atoned for through Christ instead of sacrifices.

For instance, look at Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Was that written on stone (about being one that hangeth on a tree)?

No, it came from the OT:

Deut 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God; ) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Anyone that committed a sin worthy of death (which ones are those?) had to be hanged, but couldn't stay on the tree because their corpse would curse the land that God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Israel.

The covenant of the Promised Land was an inheritance and because of disobedience of the children of Jacob eventually there had to be consequences for that disobedience.

Look at the very first thing the children of Jacob had to do when they were rescued from the land of Egypt...they had to slay a lamb and smear the blood over their doors so they would be "passed over". The Passover wasn't around in Abraham's time.

Abraham obeyed God's laws and instructions out of faith. He may not have always known why God's will was what it was, but he had faith that it was always for the greater good, even when he was about to sacrifice Isaac.

The children of Jacob, however, were very disobedient. That's all over scripture. They weren't going to keep their promises to obey Him, so He had to curse them with consequences.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

There's been transgression since before this earth was created, so there has ALWAYS been law. God's will for us hasn't changed, but the consequences of breaking His will have.

Christ paid the ransom. He bought us with His blood.

1 Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now look at this verse: Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What does that tell us? There was already law before Mt. Sinai!! There wouldn't have been laws added for transgression if there wasn't a law being transgressed in the first place.

That's why I keep giving you examples of murder already being against God's law, and violence being against His law (will) etc.

The Sabbath commandment was around before Mt. Sinai (Exodus 16).

God's chosen people were transgressing the law and He gave them consequences for doing it. They had been in captivity and didn't obey Him during that time. When He showed them their transgressions they CONTINUED to not obey Him.

The ceremonial law for atonement of sin WAS a curse. Sacrificing your innocent animals, traveling to Jerusalem three times a year, etc. It was all a consequence of sin.

Does that make more sense of what I've been trying to say?

[PROPHECYKID]

Well I don't mean to be a tide shifter but shouldn't a question such as this be asked in the debate/discussion sub forum. No offense K4c, its a good discussion but i don't want someone to come here and get all angry and stuff like in the past. Since trust and Obey knows more about the rules than i do i guess she can answer me.

And answer me fast cuz i want a piece of this discussion.

[TrustAndObey]

For some reason we still don't have our Debate section opened. Until then, K4C is being very friendly and he's not speaking against a fundamental belief, so I have really enjoyed our conversation(s).

[reddogs]

I have moved this thread to the more appropriate Discussion and Debate (http://christianforums.com/f841-discussion-and-debate.html)
Sub-forum for discussion and debate.


Red
Seventh-Day Adventist Forum Moderator

[OntheDL]

Here is my reply to the same question asked by PK.


When a Jew talks about the law, he/she always refers to the whole law.

Paul being a Jew talked about the law in Gal 3 that was 430 years after the promise made to Abraham. That is at mount Sinai. At Mt. Sinai, the 10 commandments were given (codified) as well as the law of Moses which contained the moral and the ceremonial along with civil ordinances.

Now were the 10 commandments or the moral laws against faith? Well of course not.

Look at how Paul began Galatians 3:

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

One of the issues facing the early new Christians was Judaizing: the works of keeping the law for righteousness. This is evident throughout the Pauline epistles.

Paul was not speaking against the law, but against the works of the keeping the law for righteousness as the Jews did.

Here is the spirit of prophecy comment on Gal 3. I think it also answers your question in the other thread that has been locked.

I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments. {1SM 233.1}

Christ was the foundation of the whole Jewish economy. The death of Abel was in consequence of Cain's refusing to accept God's plan in the school of obedience to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ typified by the sacrificial offerings pointing to Christ. Cain refused the shedding of blood which symbolized the blood of Christ to be shed for the world. This whole ceremony was prepared by God, and Christ became the foundation of the whole system. This is the beginning of its work as the schoolmaster to bring sinful human agents to a consideration of Christ the Foundation of the whole Jewish economy. {1SM 233.2}

All who did service in connection with the sanctuary were being educated constantly in regard to the intervention of Christ in behalf of the human race. This service was designed to create in every heart a love for the law of God, which is the law of His kingdom. The sacrificial offering was to be an object lesson of the love of God revealed in Christ--in the suffering, dying victim, who took upon Himself the sin of which man was guilty, the innocent being made sin for us. {1SM 233.3}
....

Especially the Moral Law

"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24). In this scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law. The law reveals sin to us, and causes us to feel our need of Christ and to flee unto Him for pardon and peace by exercising repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. {1SM 234.5}

[TrustAndObey]

Very good post DL!

[TrustAndObey]

Joseph knew that sleeping with Potipher's wife would be a great sin against his lord (Potipher) and his Lord (God).

Genesis 39:9

[Jim Larmore]

I think one of the greatest deceptions satan has brought upon the people of God is this idea of the law being done away with. Logic will tell us that the law has to exist. Grace would be unnecessary if the law didn't exist anymore. One ( Grace ) is necessary because the other ( the law ) is eternally there. Grace wasn't just extended once at the cross and then no longer needed. Grace is extended now on our behalf each day we live. We have life because of the grace of God. We need it just to take our next breath, and we need it for salvation. According to the book of Ephesians our temporal life is only given to us because of the grace of Christ.

No one has ever been saved at any time in history because they kept the law. Salvation has always been by faith thru grace even in the ancient times from Adam on. No one ever has or ever will keep the law good enough to be saved. We live and will be saved by the grace of Christ and observe the law thru His power because we are saved not to be saved.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[RND]

Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Paul is talking about the ceremonial law here. How do I know that? Paul says that the "law was added" because of transgressions. Obviously then there were transgressions "before" the Mosaic law came into existence because Paul tells us so. Sin is the "transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4.

The 10 Commandments could not save, then only pointed out what sin was. Whenan Israelite broke the law, whether it was the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic law, there were a set group of rituals and sacrifices that had to be made that pointed to the eventual coming of the Messiah.

This is why Paul said that the "law" (ceremonial, Mosaic) was "until" the seed would come. The seed, as we are told by Paul in verse 16, is not of "amny" but of one...that is Jesus Christ.

I explain it this way to folks and it makes sense. Well, at least it makes sense to the prisoners of the CDC facility I visit every Sabbath.

The ceremonial law was like a road map. It pointed forward to a destination in the future. Once the future was reached and created the here and now the road map was no longer needed. That's why we look "back" to the cross because we have the luxury of "hindsight."

That's what Paul was saying to those "foolish" Galatians!

[PROPHECYKID]

Paul is talking about the ceremonial law here. How do I know that? Paul says that the "law was added" because of transgressions. Obviously then there were transgressions "before" the Mosaic law came into existence because Paul tells us so. Sin is the "transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4.

The 10 Commandments could not save, then only pointed out what sin was. Whenan Israelite broke the law, whether it was the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic law, there were a set group of rituals and sacrifices that had to be made that pointed to the eventual coming of the Messiah.

This is why Paul said that the "law" (ceremonial, Mosaic) was "until" the seed would come. The seed, as we are told by Paul in verse 16, is not of "amny" but of one...that is Jesus Christ.

I explain it this way to folks and it makes sense. Well, at least it makes sense to the prisoners of the CDC facility I visit every Sabbath.

The ceremonial law was like a road map. It pointed forward to a destination in the future. Once the future was reached and created the here and now the road map was no longer needed. That's why we look "back" to the cross because we have the luxury of "hindsight."

That's what Paul was saying to those "foolish" Galatians!

When you mention the Mosaic Law are you speaking of the civil laws or are you speaking of more than just the civil laws?

[RND]

Posted already

[RND]

When you mention the Mosaic Law are you speaking of the civil laws or are you speaking of more than just the civil laws?

Hey PK, I'm referring to the entire book of the law that Moses wrote. That said, the "law" was until Jesus means to me the ceremonial laws that pointed to the coming of the Messiah.

[TrustAndObey]

I loves me some RND. :)