Old City Easter celebrations marked by mayhem

[Torah]

Sunday, April 27, 2008by Nicole Jansezian

What was supposed to be one of the holiest days on the Eastern Orthodox calendar looked more like a prelude to the Crusades in Jerusalem’s OldCity as an estimated 10,000 Old City Christians and pilgrims from Russia, Greece and Armenia faced off with hundreds of Israeli soldiers and police on Holy Saturday.
Police set up barriers at all entrances to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, where some Christians believe Jesus was buried. From sunrise on Holy Saturday, or the Sabbath of Light, pilgrims waited at police barriers for a chance to get into the church. Most never made it to the church plaza.
The overwhelming police presence was intended for crowd control and was partly in response to expected brawls between the 14 denominations in the church where relations are tenuous. A week earlier, Greeks and Armenians scuffled over rights to the tomb.
All the denominations came prepared--several laymen dressed as priests so they could have access to the church and defend their denominational territory. The Assyrian Orthodox contingent came to blows with police inside the church.
In stark contrast to the respect of evangelical Christian supporters of Israel who pilgrim to the Holy Land throughout the year, traditional Christians see access to the church as their right and despise Israeli interference.
“My father and mother told me that 60 years ago there were no Israelis, no Jews, no police and people came from around the world and there was no problem,” said Jerusalem resident Nicola Pavlov, who is Greek Orthodox. “The Jews, the Israeli police have no right to stop us from going to our church.”
Father Joseph Marquis from Sacred Heart Byzantine Catholic Church, who led a group from Michigan, lambasted police for drinking water while pilgrims passed out from the heat.
“We were treated like criminals,” he said.
Police on the scene privately expressed their distaste with the behavior of Christians on this day.
“It’s insane,” said one policewoman. “But it’s their holiday.”
The Eastern church Easter was a month later than the Western Easter this year. It coincided with the last day of Passover and made for an especially crowded OldCity as Christian and Jewish worshippers headed to holy sites.
Today about 14 denominations claim some degree of rights in the Holy Sepulchre and six are allowed to hold daily services including Armenian Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopian, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Syrian Orthodox. All denominations abide by a decision that allows a Muslim family to hold the keys to the church.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=15810 (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=15810)

[Lulav]

nice

[ContraMundum]

Typical. Happens every year. Terrible witnesses they are- always arguing about the unChristian and unscriptural notion of juristictions.

[Lulav]

Blame it on the Jews everytime while they are there venerating their Jew. :doh:

“My father and mother told me that 60 years ago there were no Israelis, no Jews, no police and people came from around the world and there was no problem,” said Jerusalem resident Nicola Pavlov, who is Greek Orthodox. “The Jews, the Israeli police have no right to stop us from going to our church.”

[ContraMundum]

Blame it on the Jews everytime while they are there venerating their Jew. :doh:


I don't think he has anyone else to blame other than the Israeli authorities, does he? (Seeing that apparently he doesn't acknowledge his own group's responsibility!!).

The whole thing makes me grit my teeth. This stuff never happens with the Western churches.

[ShirChadash]

This stuff never happens with the Western churches.
Shalom. Do you mean this, specifically with regard to fighting over common church grounds/holdings? :scratch:

Otherwise, there has certainly been more than plenty of fighting between and among the western churches/their branches, no? I'm just curious as to what, specifically, you were referring to, as "this stuff".

[Mikeb85]

This stuff never happens with the Western churches.

Ever hear of the crusades?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#Eastern_Orthodoxy

Keep in mind that the Eastern Orthodox were also victims of the crusades, Constantinople having been sacked in 1204 by Western forces...

Or maybe other controversies?
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/02/Graham_Nixon.html

Or how about this? Pat Robertson calls for assassination of Hugo Chavez
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-robertson-_x.htm

And theres plenty more...

But you're right, this stuff never happens with the western churches....

[Mikeb85]

Blame it on the Jews everytime while they are there venerating their Jew. :doh:


While it certainly is no excuse, Orthodox Christians in the Holy land are treated like criminals by the Israeli government. And they're only human.

They're often denied access to Holy sites, have their travels restricted, the Israeli government tried to interfere with the affairs of the Jerusalem patriarchate, etc...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XKZHKK5G3NU&feature=related

Edit - Also, the Orthodox Christians have survived persecutions in the Holy land since the first century AD...

[Lulav]

This is not a debate thread so I won't respond to you.

[ShirChadash]

Huh. I wonder why it is anyone blames the Jews, since this is an in-house issue and those who engaged in the fighting are the armenian and eastern orthodox. These threads address the same situation, don't they? (this thread, and the one in the subforum above: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=46484353#post46484353 ) :confused:

[Lulav]

Of course blame the Jews because they don't want fighting there, I guess all those different groups want to be left alone by the Israeli police so they can 'peacefully' duke it out with each other. :(

shaalu Shalom Yerushalyim! Shame we have to pray that against those who say they love G-d!

[Mikeb85]

This is not a debate thread so I won't respond to you.

No you're right, it's not a debate thread. The Messianic folder however does seem to be a place where you can slander other denominations without having to justify yourself. What does an internal issue between Orthodox believers have to do with Messianic Judaism?

[ShirChadash]

If you'll notice the link I provided in a previous post, you will see that we have a subforum here for what some consider prophetic happenings, and for Israel current events.

http://christianforums.com/f358-israel-prophecy-current-events.html

This issue was actually sister-posted by another poster there, in addition to the thread here. Many in this area (Messianic) are interested in current events and happenings in Israel, and we share news and newsworthy stories. Just because the behavior we are discussing is uh... less than admirable... on the part of churches/groups involved in the situation, doesn't mean we in this forum do not have a right to note or discuss its happening.

[Lulav]

No you're right, it's not a debate thread. The Messianic folder however does seem to be a place where you can slander other denominations without having to justify yourself. What does an internal issue between Orthodox believers have to do with Messianic Judaism?Where are we slandering anyone? We are commenting on behaviour unbecoming of a believer in Messiah. As such we are told to judge one anothers behavior and warn other believers against falling into the same sin. Also many of us believe that Israel does not belong to the Christian church so that is why this is of interest to us. No where did G-d say his land was to be turned over to the Christians. They are guests there and should behave as such, squatters rights don't count, not according to His word.

[Lulav]

I will cite you precedent:

Book of Nehemiah circa 500-400BCE

After gaining permission to return to Jerusalem and rebuild from King Aartexerses they set about rebuilding he wall first.........

17 Then I said to them, "You see the trouble we are in: Jerusalem lies in ruins, and its gates have been burned with fire. Come, let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, and we will no longer be in disgrace." 18 I also told them about the gracious hand of my G-d upon me and what the king had said to me. They replied, "Let us start rebuilding." So they began this good work.


19 But when Sanballat the Horonite,
Tobiah the Ammonite official and
Geshem the Arab

heard about it, they mocked and ridiculed us. "What is this you are doing?" they asked. "Are you rebelling against the king?" 20 I answered them by saying, "The G-d of heaven will give us success. We his servants will start rebuilding, but as for you, you have no share in Jerusalem or any claim or historic right to it."

4:1 But it came to pass, that when Sanballat heard that we builded the wall, he was wroth, and took great indignation, and mocked the Jews.
4:7 But it came to pass, that when Sanballat, and Tobiah, and the Arabians, and the Ammonites, and the Ashdodites, heard that the walls of Jerusalem were made up, and that the breaches began to be stopped, then they were very wroth,



6:1-2 Now it came to pass, when Sanballat, and Tobiah, and Geshem the Arabian, and the rest of our enemies, heard that I had builded the wall, and that there was no breach left therein; (though at that time I had not set up the doors upon the gates;)That Sanballat and Geshem sent unto me, saying, Come, let us meet together in some one of the villages in the plain of Ono. But they thought to do me mischief.

[ContraMundum]

Shalom. Do you mean this, specifically with regard to fighting over common church grounds/holdings? :scratch:

Otherwise, there has certainly been more than plenty of fighting between and among the western churches/their branches, no? I'm just curious as to what, specifically, you were referring to, as "this stuff".

I meant fighting over juristictions, holy sites, etc.

Ever hear of the crusades?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#Eastern_Orthodoxy

Keep in mind that the Eastern Orthodox were also victims of the crusades, Constantinople having been sacked in 1204 by Western forces...

Or maybe other controversies?
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/02/Graham_Nixon.html

Or how about this? Pat Robertson calls for assassination of Hugo Chavez
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-robertson-_x.htm

And theres plenty more...

But you're right, this stuff never happens with the western churches....

Historically, the Western Church used to fight a lot. It pretty much ended with the Treaty of Westphalia.

As for political bickering between Christian individiuals or Christian individuals calling for the assasination of duly elected officials, what's that got to do with anything? They don't speak for the Western Church as a whole, and most Christians reject that rubbish.

Still, nice attempt at slander. I won't hit the button, don't worry.

[ContraMundum]

Huh. I wonder why it is anyone blames the Jews, since this is an in-house issue and those who engaged in the fighting are the armenian and eastern orthodox. These threads address the same situation, don't they? (this thread, and the one in the subforum above: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=46484353#post46484353 ) :confused:

Perhaps they are synonymously using the term "The Jews" to mean "The Israelis" eg. the government. I don't think it's anti-semitic, it's just a mess and the people interviewed are not speaking for anyone officially anyway.

[ContraMundum]

No you're right, it's not a debate thread. The Messianic folder however does seem to be a place where you can slander other denominations without having to justify yourself. What does an internal issue between Orthodox believers have to do with Messianic Judaism?

Many members here are interesting in current events in Israel. For some of us, it's our homeland.

We do try to curb the slandering of other denominations, though. Please try to do likewise while posting here. :)

[ShirChadash]

I meant fighting over juristictions, holy sites, etc.

Oh, okay, I see what you were saying. Thanks for clarifying for me CM.

[Mikeb85]

Where are we slandering anyone? We are commenting on behaviour unbecoming of a believer in Messiah. As such we are told to judge one anothers behavior and warn other believers against falling into the same sin. Also many of us believe that Israel does not belong to the Christian church so that is why this is of interest to us. No where did G-d say his land was to be turned over to the Christians. They are guests there and should behave as such, squatters rights don't count, not according to His word.

Keep in mind the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem was established by Jews in the first century AD (it's first bishop was James the Just, also known as the brother of the Lord)... They've been there for 2000 years, alot longer than the current Israeli government. Calling the church, established by the apostles and spoke of in the Bible, 'squatters', is very disrespecful.

[ContraMundum]

Keep in mind the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem was established by Jews in the first century AD (it's first bishop was James the Just, also known as the brother of the Lord)... They've been there for 2000 years, alot longer than the current Israeli government. Calling the church, established by the apostles and spoke of in the Bible, 'squatters', is very disrespecful.

I completely agree with that. However, the politics of the place is a complete debacle right now and the silly and needless feuding by the local Apostolic Christians is only making things worse. The obsession with juristictions really blows their witness. What a mess.

[Mikeb85]

I completely agree with that. However, the politics of the place is a complete debacle right now and the silly and needless feuding by the local Apostolic Christians is only making things worse. The obsession with juristictions really blows their witness. What a mess.

Yes, it is a mess. But how do you fix the situation? The Jerusalem Patriarchate has a legitimate claim to the land and church, but it shares it with the other denominations.

And while any violence is deplorable, it has been very minor, especially when you consider religious feuds in other parts of the globe.

[ContraMundum]

Yes, it is a mess. But how do you fix the situation? The Jerusalem Patriarchate has a legitimate claim to the land and church, but it shares it with the other denominations.

And while any violence is deplorable, it has been very minor, especially when you consider religious feuds in other parts of the globe.

Only a change of heart and the killing of a few egos can solve this one. Basically, people need to repent and stop being so "us and them". Most Orthodox abroad are embarassed by this, so perhaps a bit of in-house cleaning is in order.

You're right though- it's minor on the scale of violence. It's really just a scuffle- but it's all the more awful to see monks and priests involved. It really, really blows their credibility out of the window in the eyes of the world and badly reflects on the faith.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Keep in mind the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem was established by Jews in the first century AD.....

I had to (or did anyway) goooooogle to see about the opj....
it looks like recently the harlot described in revelation went to visit him and 'accepted' him with some sort of 'you're okay with me'....
whereas the real apostles and prophets were never and even simply disciples today
of Yeshua are NOT accepted by the harlot but rather are put to death...
so...
?

[visionary]

Moving this thread quickly to debate so that the non-members posting will not be reported for teaching, preaching and such.

[Mikeb85]

I had to (or did anyway) goooooogle to see about the opj....
it looks like recently the harlot described in revelation went to visit him and 'accepted' him with some sort of 'you're okay with me'....
whereas the real apostles and prophets were never and even simply disciples today
of Yeshua are NOT accepted by the harlot but rather are put to death...
so...
?

Sorry, don't follow... Think you could explain what you're trying to say a little more clearly, minus the sentence fragments and whatnot?

[Torah613]

Blame it on the Jews everytime while they are there venerating their Jew. :doh:

Greek Orthodox eh? Most members of the Greek Church in Isreal are Palestinians, and the Eastern Orthodox Church has always supported their cause. Not surprising considering many of the instigators of hte Pogroms are venerated as saints.

they actually deposed their archbishop because he sold land to the Isreali government.

Yochanan

[Mikeb85]

Greek Orthodox eh? Most members of the Greek Church in Isreal are Palestinians, and the Eastern Orthodox Church has always supported their cause. Not surprising considering many of the instigators of hte Pogroms are venerated as saints.

they actually deposed their archbishop because he sold land to the Isreali government.

Yochanan

Do you have any proof to back up the claims that EO Saints instigated any pogroms?

As for the Jerusalem Patriarch selling land to the Israeli government, what right does he have to sell land that has belonged to the church for centuries, whether it's to Israelis or Palestinians or anyone else for that matter? Not to mention the Israeli government has tried interfering with affairs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate, freezing it's bank accounts, blocking pilgrims from entering Holy sites, etc...

[Torah613]

Umm what right? Its called Eminant Domain.

Antisemitic EO saints? well for one there is John Chrysostom. for others theirs the various Tsars, including Nicholas II. For others, i would have to do much research, and I really just don't care that much.

I do know from personal experience that many in the EOx church are very antisemitic. When I was in the OCA, I actually heard one priests wife curse (I'm talking about words i wouldn't say infront of my mother) about the existance of Isreal. The same priest often preached about this or that "evil" aspect of Judaism. Many times bringing up quotes from the Talmud that proved to be fictitious.

I don't doupt there are some people in the EOx church that are not antisemitic, but my personal experience was very traumatizing. I actually moved to avoid backlash from the community after it was discovered that I had gone to a synogogue to say Kaddish for my grandmother on her Yahrtzeit.

Yochanan

[Mikeb85]

Umm what right? Its called Eminant Domain.

Antisemitic EO saints? well for one there is John Chrysostom. for others theirs the various Tsars, including Nicholas II. For others, i would have to do much research, and I really just don't care that much.

I do know from personal experience that many in the EOx church are very antisemitic. When I was in the OCA, I actually heard one priests wife curse (I'm talking about words i wouldn't say infront of my mother) about the existance of Isreal. The same priest often preached about this or that "evil" aspect of Judaism. Many times bringing up quotes from the Talmud that proved to be fictitious.

I don't doupt there are some people in the EOx church that are not antisemitic, but my personal experience was very traumatizing. I actually moved to avoid backlash from the community after it was discovered that I had gone to a synogogue to say Kaddish for my grandmother on her Yahrtzeit.

Yochanan

While EO are against Judaizing the faith, or compromizing the faith in any other way, I have not encountered any who seem to be anti-semetic, anti-Islam, or anti-anything...

I'm sure however that there are bad apples in every bunch, I certainly saw it growing up in another denomination... If there is indeed an EO priest preaching anti-semitism, someone should report it to the Bishop in charge, and have the priest removed.

By the way, you said there were saints that instigated pogroms against Jews, and you still have nothing to back it up. Most of the pogroms were carried out by angry mobs, or the communists during the revolution.

John Chrysostom spoke out against Judaizers, I'm not aware of him being anti-semitic. Nicholas II was canonized based on the fact he became a martyr for the faith when he was assasinated by the communists.

Also, being against Judaizing the faith is not anti-semitic. If Orthodox Jews wish to keep their faith intact, without believing in Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God, I'm certainly not going to accuse them of being anti-Christian on that basis alone.

As for eminent domain, that's the right of a state to expropriate property. I really don't know much about Israel's laws in regard to this, but I do know it's a tricky situation, especially since I don't believe Israel has excercized complete sovereignty over the occupied territories...

I'm talking about the Patriarch's right to sell land belonging to the church...(which he doesn't have) He was rightfully deposed, and a new Patriarch selected in his place. The Patriarchate certainly has the right to do this, it has nothing to do with 'eminent domain'.

[Lulav]

Keep in mind the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem was established by Jews in the first century AD (it's first bishop was James the Just, also known as the brother of the Lord)... They've been there for 2000 years, alot longer than the current Israeli government. Calling the church, established by the apostles and spoke of in the Bible, 'squatters', is very disrespecful.
In posts 14 & 15 I answered to this, perhaps prematurely, but it seems you did not read it. Frankly I don't care how long they've been there, G-ds word stands above any squatters rights. And the 'church' is supposed to be a spiritual thing, not about land rights, or is the Orthodox church care more about the physical than the spiritual?

Also squatters rights are a man made thing anyway. G-d made a covenant with his land with whom he chose. And I'll leave it at that for now. :wave:

[Lulav]

Do you have any proof to back up the claims that EO Saints instigated any pogroms?

As for the Jerusalem Patriarch selling land to the Israeli government, what right does he have to sell land that has belonged to the church for centuries, whether it's to Israelis or Palestinians or anyone else for that matter? Not to mention the Israeli government has tried interfering with affairs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate, freezing it's bank accounts, blocking pilgrims from entering Holy sites, etc... Maybe his conscious got to him and he read his bible where it states the only True deed holder is G-d himself and he rented out the land to his chosen people the Jews?

He Yeshua/Jesus tells of the parable of the landowner. He has the right to kick them out and the right to return them and no one has the right to stop it either way.

[Lulav]

I'm talking about the Patriarch's right to sell land belonging to the church...(which he doesn't have) He was rightfully deposed, and a new Patriarch selected in his place. The Patriarchate certainly has the right to do this, it has nothing to do with 'eminent domain'.

How did the church buy land in the first place? The land was divided up between the sons of Israel, Jacob. If it had to be sold for any reason then a kinsman redeemer would buy it to keep in the tribal family. So which tribe does the Patriarchate, belong to?

[Mikeb85]

..

[ContraMundum]

So which tribe does the Patriarchate, belong to?

Churches are not tribal, according to God's word. The Patriarchate is not tribal, nor is tribal succession the source of authority for the church, because the priesthood is also the realm of all nations, as prophecied in Isaiah and Malachi- all according to the word.

The first Patriarchs of Jerusalem (for centuries) were all Jews, from many tribes. The church is to guard their gift until the Messiah returns, even if Jewish believers were forced out of the land.

As for real estate, the founding church passed it to the church to this day- they were not racist so it's ok for it to remain the property of the church regardless of the ethnic makeup of the members. Also, it should be noted that the State of Israel accepts the right of private and church (or even mosque) property. If you think they have no right to be there- then I can't agree with you. I'm glad that the Church has had a presence there to this day, despite attacks from (initially) other Jews, (later) Muslims and (eventually) even other Christians. Let's not join the chorus of Church haters.

[Torah613]

HaShem gave Eretz Yisrail to the Jews. the Orthodox church got their lands originally from the Roman empire and later from shrewd business deals. Frankly IMO these landgrants are invalid as they were bequethals of stolen property.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

And the 'church' is supposed to be a spiritual thing, not about land rights, or is the Orthodox church care more about the physical than the spiritual?

Well, judging by your inverted commas when speaking of the Orthodox Church in Israel, you don't consider them authentic- which is a shame because they are the product of Our Lord Himself, and they can prove it.

One thing is for sure, anyone even remotely familiar with Oriental Orthodoxy knows that they are far more interested in the spiritual than the physical.

So, they had yet another squabble over juristictions- nobody is perfect. But one thing's for sure- they not as worried about the physical as anyone who thinks their churches should belong to someone else.

Also squatters rights are a man made thing anyway. G-d made a covenant with his land with whom he chose. And I'll leave it at that for now. :wave:As nothing happens without God's consent, it looks like He chose the Patriarchate of Jerusalem to hold His keys there until Messiah returns. (Is. 22)

[ContraMundum]

HaShem gave Eretz Yisrail to the Jews. the Orthodox church got their lands originally from the Roman empire and later from shrewd business deals. Frankly IMO these landgrants are invalid as they were bequethals of stolen property.

Yochanan

With respect, that's not supportable. The church existed under persecution from the Roman Empire, and exists after she fell. They are only "invalid" if you take a fanatical modern point of view. They belong to the people, not to the institution. Steal their buildings, and you're just stealing from people- the institutions will continue.

[ContraMundum]

Unless you want to argue that Jesus and the Apostles weren't Jewish? (the Orthodox church has documented succession from modern times all the way back to the Apostles themselves) Messianic Jews do still believe in Jesus, and use the New Testament as scripture, right?

Messianic Jews do actually still believe in the authority of the scirptures, as well as the deity of Yeshua and the Cross. Try to make sure you don't give the impression that you think otherwise. There exists a great variety of opinions within the framework of Messianic believers, so always make sure you give them a chance to explain their individual perspective before thinking they are not believers.

[Torah613]

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is a superb example. It was a gift of hte Royal family to the church (actually the mother of Constantine the Great to be specific).

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is a superb example. It was a gift of hte Royal family to the church (actually the mother of Constantine the Great to be specific).

Yochanan

The church was already worshipping on the site. The State was being generous. Nothing wrong with that. The church didn't need the state to worship there, and when the state dissapeared from history, it carried on.

[Torah613]

well the veracity of that I don't know. As you may be aware, archeological digs aren't exactly a regular attraction there. ;)

regardless of the veracity of the statement though, and I must note that this is only my opinion, the church has no legitimate claim to the land as they are not Jews. But that is my personal opinion nothing more. OF course I also don't advocate just dumping all the goyim into the sea either.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

well the veracity of that I don't know. As you may be aware, archeological digs aren't exactly a regular attraction there. ;)

regardless of the veracity of the statement though, and I must note that this is only my opinion, the church has no legitimate claim to the land as they are not Jews. But that is my personal opinion nothing more. OF course I also don't advocate just dumping all the goyim into the sea either.

Yochanan

I honestly don't think Israel is about ethnic cleansing and/or kicking people out. The church is a gift from Jews, as I see it, and that includes their places of worship. When the Jews were forced out of Eretz Yisrael, the Gentile Christians remained as custodians- and soon they will come to realise that, God willing. Even so, Gentiles are allowed to live in the land according to the Torah anyway, so there's no big deal.

[Torah613]

OF course the state of Isreal does recognize the property rights of a church. Just as the US government does.

But if a highway or other needful public program were being put in, the church would just as equally be subject to emanant domain as the private individual.

At the time of hte controversy, I was EOx. Frankly, I never saw the root of it. It was an (mostly) unused property that happened to be in the possession of hte church. Why on earth should the church just sit on it when there was so much expensive upkeep on other properties? It just never made sense. The only sense I ever got out of it was from a member of JP (Jerusalem Patriarchate) who left the EOx over the issue, saying the underlying cause was rank antisemitism.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I honestly don't think Israel is about ethnic cleansing and/or kicking people out. The church is a gift from Jews, as I see it, and that includes their places of worship. When the Jews were forced out of Eretz Yisrael, the Gentile Christians remained as custodians- and soon they will come to realise that, God willing. Even so, Gentiles are allowed to live in the land according to the Torah anyway, so there's no big deal.
Of course I agree, at least with Jews being allowed to live in the land.

and of coure I was not advocated ethnic cleansing or kicking people out.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Of course I agree, at least with Jews being allowed to live in the land.

and of coure I was not advocated ethnic cleansing or kicking people out.

Yochanan
I am leaving this discussion as it is only causing to bring up extremely painful memories of past traumas from circulating for years in EOx circles. I actually had to go to therapy for it. Now that's what I call church! (sorry couldnt' resist a bit of sarcasm)

This thread is only creating bitterness and the old "fear for my life" that caused me to leave many relationships with friends who were mutual friends of the people from my EOx parish. Frankly there is nothing more terrifying than reading some of the things in this thread.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

OF course the state of Isreal does recognize the property rights of a church. Just as the US government does.

But if a highway or other needful public program were being put in, the church would just as equally be subject to emanant domain as the private individual.

At the time of hte controversy, I was EOx. Frankly, I never saw the root of it. It was an (mostly) unused property that happened to be in the possession of hte church. Why on earth should the church just sit on it when there was so much expensive upkeep on other properties? It just never made sense. The only sense I ever got out of it was from a member of JP (Jerusalem Patriarchate) who left the EOx over the issue, saying the underlying cause was rank antisemitism.

Yochanan


I'm not familiar with the controversy you are speaking about.

Anyway- go and rest. :hug: Don't bother yourself with this thread- it's a difficult and impossibly insane topic and us mere mortals will never cure it. :(

[Lulav]

Churches are not tribal, according to God's word. The Patriarchate is not tribal, nor is tribal succession the source of authority for the church, because the priesthood is also the realm of all nations, as prophecied in Isaiah and Malachi- all according to the word.

The first Patriarchs of Jerusalem (for centuries) were all Jews, from many tribes. The church is to guard their gift until the Messiah returns, even if Jewish believers were forced out of the land.

As for real estate, the founding church passed it to the church to this day- they were not racist so it's ok for it to remain the property of the church regardless of the ethnic makeup of the members. Also, it should be noted that the State of Israel accepts the right of private and church (or even mosque) property. If you think they have no right to be there- then I can't agree with you. I'm glad that the Church has had a presence there to this day, despite attacks from (initially) other Jews, (later) Muslims and (eventually) even other Christians. Let's not join the chorus of Church haters. I am not a church hater, but I am zealous for G-ds word and his promises, and no one of yet has been able to show me where anyone has a right to do as they please with the Land called Israel, or especially the place where HaShem placed his name. The 'church' , like the kingdom is not to be of this world, right ? So why does it matter where they are? I guess I just don't see it because they have chosen some spot three hundred years later and say that Yeshua was born or died or buried there. What does it matter? What matter is not his birth or dead, but his resurrection and where he is now, serving us in the Holy Temple in heaven. That is where our hearts, and minds and thoughts should be , not upon some man chosen ( or woman chosen) place on earth. Especially since they can't even act civilized there, they don't bear witness to the king, they bring shame and derision.
Sure Israel respects this, to appease the billion Christians world wide, and also the billions of muslims, they aren't stupid, and yet they are not observant of G-ds laws G-d, so don't let them set any example to follow , I don't.

[Lulav]

Well, judging by your inverted commas when speaking of the Orthodox Church in Israel, you don't consider them authentic- which is a shame because they are the product of Our Lord Himself, and they can prove it.

One thing is for sure, anyone even remotely familiar with Oriental Orthodoxy knows that they are far more interested in the spiritual than the physical.

So, they had yet another squabble over juristictions- nobody is perfect. But one thing's for sure- they not as worried about the physical as anyone who thinks their churches should belong to someone else.

As nothing happens without God's consent, it looks like He chose the Patriarchate of Jerusalem to hold His keys there until Messiah returns. (Is. 22)Inverted commas?:scratch: anyway, I put it like that not out of disrespect but because I see the body, not as a physical church as do many of traditinalists who think they were first, they are right, etc. Are we not all to be one? But this is hardly showing it , is it? No. They can prove it? So can every other church, see what I mean? I know of only one way that you can tell what is of Yeshua, by his words alone: They will know you are mine by how you treat each other (papaphrased of course) and what is something like this showing the rest of the world? the Light of Yesua? the love of Messiah? pleezse:doh:You would say he established this??

You know I can't figure out who this Patriarchate of Jerusalem is supposed to be. Very confusing. Seems Israel and Jordan can't agree on who it should be? That adds more confusion to the matter , http://www.gopoj.org/ and you say that Yeshua gave him ( not sure who him is) the keys to the kingdom? I thought that went to the Pope? See, even more confusion. If this is of G-d how can there be so much fighting and confusion?

I just go by his word:


I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God."

Umm, so where was this annulled?:scratch:

[Lulav]

I honestly don't think Israel is about ethnic cleansing and/or kicking people out. The church is a gift from Jews, as I see it, and that includes their places of worship. When the Jews were forced out of Eretz Yisrael, the Gentile Christians remained as custodians- and soon they will come to realise that, God willing. Even so, Gentiles are allowed to live in the land according to the Torah anyway, so there's no big deal. 'They remained as custodians' doesn't that sound all nice and proper? :) If it were true that they were being custodians then how did the Muslims take over and what about the Crusades to get it back for the church? Killing as many Jews along the way as they could? And what about when they got there, killing more Jews where ever they could find them. Seems any ethnic cleansing has always been part of the church, and mainly aimed against Jews. I don't know why you don't see that .

I am leaving this discussion as it is only causing to bring up extremely painful memories of past traumas from circulating for years in EOx circles. I actually had to go to therapy for it. Now that's what I call church! (sorry couldnt' resist a bit of sarcasm)

This thread is only creating bitterness and the old "fear for my life" that caused me to leave many relationships with friends who were mutual friends of the people from my EOx parish. Frankly there is nothing more terrifying than reading some of the things in this thread.

Yochanan:hug: I'm sorry this has been painful for you J, but it goes to show this cannot be of Yeshua, its not about possessions, Yeshua taught over and over again that we are not to care about the physical things. And I don't know of one passage that states that any earthly site was to be taken over by Christians and maintained until he comes back, not a one.

[Mikeb85]

:) If it were true that they were being custodians then how did the Muslims take over and what about the Crusades to get it back for the church? Killing as many Jews along the way as they could? And what about when they got there, killing more Jews where ever they could find them. Seems any ethnic cleansing has always been part of the church, and mainly aimed against Jews. I don't know why you don't see that .


The crusades were carried out by Western forces, launched by the Roman Catholic Pope Urban II and his successors. (By this time they had already left the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church, also known as the Orthodox church) Keep in mind that during the course of the crusades, Orthodox Christians were also targeted, Constantinople was sacked, the church of Holy Wisdom (Hagia Sophia) defiled, etc...

BTW, Jerusalem Patriarchate Website is here: http://jerusalem-patriarchate.info/

And as of December 2007, Israel finally recognized Theophilos III as the Patriarch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Theophilus_III_of_Jerusalem

[stone]

This is not a debate thread so I won't respond to you.

This is in the debate subforum.

[ShirChadash]

This is in the debate subforum.
It was moved here after Lulav's post.

[stone]

To debate what? That there are conflicts between christians? What is there to debate?

[ShirChadash]

To debate what? That there are conflicts between christians? What is there to debate?
I haven't the answer to that personally, as I didn't move it. LOL However, since I am sure you read all of the thread before weighing in, you might recall seeing this post:

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=46552410&postcount=25

in which visionary makes it clear why she moved this thread to the debate area.

[stone]

no, i did not read all of the thread... people actually do that?

[ContraMundum]

Inverted commas?:scratch: anyway, I put it like that not out of disrespect but because I see the body, not as a physical church as do many of traditinalists who think they were first, they are right, etc. Are we not all to be one? But this is hardly showing it , is it? No. They can prove it? So can every other church, see what I mean? I know of only one way that you can tell what is of Yeshua, by his words alone: They will know you are mine by how you treat each other (papaphrased of course) and what is something like this showing the rest of the world? the Light of Yesua? the love of Messiah? pleezse:doh:You would say he established this??

Obviously, I think the scriptures teach that the church is both invisible and visible. I understand your questions though.

You know I can't figure out who this Patriarchate of Jerusalem is supposed to be. Very confusing. Seems Israel and Jordan can't agree on who it should be? That adds more confusion to the matter , http://www.gopoj.org/ and you say that Yeshua gave him ( not sure who him is) the keys to the kingdom? I thought that went to the Pope? See, even more confusion. If this is of G-d how can there be so much fighting and confusion?

Isreal and Jordan don't decide who is the Patriarch of Jerusalem, the church does.

I just go by his word:
I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God."
Umm, so where was this annulled?:scratch:

I don't think this is annulled, or in contradiction to what I've already said.

[ContraMundum]

'They remained as custodians' doesn't that sound all nice and proper? :) If it were true that they were being custodians then how did the Muslims take over and what about the Crusades to get it back for the church? Killing as many Jews along the way as they could? And what about when they got there, killing more Jews where ever they could find them. Seems any ethnic cleansing has always been part of the church, and mainly aimed against Jews. I don't know why you don't see that .

I don't see history that way. While what you say is certainly based on facts, it's a lot more complex than that, and besides being a custodian of something doesn't mean you are always going to do a good job- think of humanity in general with our dealings with creation and you'll see where I'm coming from.

We have very different theology Lulav. :) Doesn't matter too much though- God's in charge and we're just mere mortals.

[Lulav]

I understand :)