Were they Sabbath keepers?

[k4c]

Were the Waldendees (spelling?) Sabbath keepers? If so, where can I get information on this?

Many people say that the early church, even before the Catholic church, kept Sunday as the day of worship. Does anyone have any information regarding this to affirm or deny?

[TrustAndObey]

K4C, I'm heading out the door, but I wanted to tell you to look up Saint Patrick. He was a Sabbath-keeper! :)

[reddogs]

I have moved this thread to the more appropriate Discussion and Debate (http://christianforums.com/f841-discussion-and-debate.html)
Sub-forum for discussion and debate.


Red
Seventh-Day Adventist Forum Moderator

[Jimlarmore]

I don't know for sure but here's a couple of web-sites that say different things about this.

http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/studies/waldenses.html

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history10.asp


Personally, I think they could very well have been 7th day Sabbath keepers as Sister White says they were.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[djconklin]

Many people say that the early church, even before the Catholic church, kept Sunday as the day of worship. Does anyone have any information regarding this to affirm or deny?

According to two unbiased historians of the time most Christians as late as the 5th century were still keeping the Sabbath.

[TrustAndObey]

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According to two unbiased historians of the time most Christians as late as the 5th century were still keeping the Sabbath.

I just read that today too! I was reading some quotes from Socrates.

[k4c]

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According to two unbiased historians of the time most Christians as late as the 5th century were still keeping the Sabbath.

Do you have the names of these two historians?

Right now I'm attending a non-sabbath keeping church. I have given much thought to the Sabbath since I'm still a baptized member of the SDA. We can build strong arguments using Scripture for and against Sabbath keeping but there is one thing that is undeniable and that is Bible prophecy pertaining to the beast kingdom and how it thought to change God's law and times.

Those who deny the prophecies say that the early church, even before the Catholic church, kept Sunday. This is why I'm trying to gather proof that this is not so.

I can't use EGW and nor would I want to. She is one of the reasons why I do not attent the SDA church any longer. She is exalted a little too much and has too many questionable works.

[synger]

I think the confusion over this arises from the fact that the Waldensians were sometimes called "Sabbati", "Sabbatati", or "Insabbatati" in contemporary accounts. Some believe that this has to do with their keeping of the Sabbath (http://www.nisbett.com/sabbath/history/hos21.htm). Others believe that the "Insabbatati" has to do with them flouting holy days as legalistic things we no longer have to follow. Some think it has to do with the wooden shoes (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_%281913%29/Waldenses) that they wore (sabots, from which term we get the modern term "sabotage"), though there are those who dispute the shoe theory (http://www.nisbett.com/sabbath/history/hos21.htm).

Personally, shoe theory or no, I don't find a lot of evidence one way or the other for Sabbath keeping. Neither of the Waldensian Confessions of Faith (http://www.pb.org/articles/walden.html) that we have (from 1120 and from 1544) mention the Sabbath at all. If it were a matter of doctrine for them, it would be in their Confessions. Some might have worshiped on the Sabbath; others may not have. We don't know.

We do know, however, that one of the leaders of the modern Waldensian church (who should be knowledgeable about the history, if anyone is) categorically denies (http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/studies/waldenses.html)the idea that Waldensians were or are Sabbatarians. However, the site that posts this letter is strongly and obviously anti-SDA, so even though it seems clear-cut I'd take it with a grain of salt.

I think that I'd go with the statement "There is no evidence that the Waldensians considered keeping the seventh-day Sabbath a crucial doctrine, and there is no strong evidence that Sabbath-keeping was wide-spread among them in the middle ages, though it could have been a personal choice. Modern Waldensians are not Sabbatarians."

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Modern Waldensians are descended from the Italian Reformed churches that emerged in the 16th century, who adopted the name because of their identification with the medieval reform movement. Basically modern Waldensianism is Italian Calvinism.

[TrustAndObey]

K4C, most people don't want extra-biblical sources. That's been my experience anyway.

I did want to know, like a lot of people I've talked to since, that the day we call Saturday was the Sabbath that JESUS kept though. I was given a plethora of information about calendar changes not interrupting the 7-day week, etc.

But St. Patrick...yep, a Sabbath keeper!

I didn't know that when I got married on St. Patrick's Day. I wasn't an Adventist then though (2001). I got married on a Sabbath actually.

Notice which church tries to "claim" Saint Patrick. ;) He wasn't Roman Catholic.

[k4c]

K4C, most people don't want extra-biblical sources. That's been my experience anyway.

I did want to know, like a lot of people I've talked to since, that the day we call Saturday was the Sabbath that JESUS kept though. I was given a plethora of information about calendar changes not interrupting the 7-day week, etc.

But St. Patrick...yep, a Sabbath keeper!

I didn't know that when I got married on St. Patrick's Day. I wasn't an Adventist then though (2001). I got married on a Sabbath actually.

Notice which church tries to "claim" Saint Patrick. ;) He wasn't Roman Catholic.

I don't believe getting married on the Sabbath is a sin. Jesus spoke about how circumcision was done on the Sabbath. Both circumcision and the marriage ceremony are both institutions of God.

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[TrustAndObey]

I didn't mean to imply that getting married on a Sabbath was sinful. I think I still would've done it even if I had been a Sabbath-keeper then, because it fell on an Irish holiday and I'm Irish.

[djconklin]

If it were a matter of doctrine for them, it would be in their Confessions.

This assumes that they would have done so if it was a significant doctrine for them. But, look at the NT, they didn't write about the Sabbath.

[synger]

This assumes that they would have done so if it was a significant doctrine for them. But, look at the NT, they didn't write about the Sabbath.

True, but by the time of the Waldensians, Sabbath-keeping would be a distinctive doctrine. That's exactly the sort of thing that one sees in a confession... an explanation of why "X" believe, teach, and confess thus-and-such over against the wrong stuff that "Y" do. I've studied a number of the confessions and catechisms from that time (and more recently as well) and if someone has a doctrine that is contrary to the norm, or the majority church in their nation or their time, it is outlined in their confessions.

[Jimlarmore]

You can do a google on "the Sabbath and the reformation" and see who kept the Sabbath as well.

God Bless
Jim Larmore